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View Full Version : It's time to pull the trigger on...


GP
11-10-2008, 10:50 AM
...The Run-N-Shoot.

You want to completely scrap this failed Broncos II experiment? You want to see this team actually DO something? To become a weapon of mass yardage?

Then bring back the Run-N-Shoot. Except this time, head it up with the guy who is about to coach TTU to a national championship. Bring in a guy who sees 1:30 left on the clock and KNOWS his team is going to win. Bring in a guy who is a proven winner with a cast of players that no other Division I team would care to offer a scholarship to. Bring in a guy who has a fascination with pirates because pirates take what they want. :pirate:

And then draft the QB for the team who is about to win the national championship. Draft the guy who passes the ball for a living. Draft the guy who could translate the offense from the HC to the other players. draft the guy who throws the ball to Andre Johnson, Jr.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. We cannot run the ball in this scheme, we cannot get our magnificent QBs to play well in this system on a consistent basis against legitimate teams.

When we ran the run-n-shoot, it was an identity. It was a culture. You cannot hide the fact that when you look back on Houston pro football, that your best years as a fan were the times when Webster Slaughter, Ernest Givins, Haywood Jeffires, and the rest of the crew were running circles around defenses. We were going to win the Super Bowl one year when the system was clicking at its best, but the engine stalled and Bud Adams was already throwing the components overboard for his jump out of Houston.

Your tired of sucking? Then petition our owner and let him know that they took our colors. They took our logo. But they can never take our freedom--Our freedom to pass for 400 and even maybe 500 yards a game.

Mike Leach, at some point, IS going to jump to the NFL and try to raid the NFL like the pirate he his. Let's see to it that Bob McNair is the smart guy who pays the pirate to raid the other 31 teams in the NFL.

I'll be making a signature and avatar for it later this evening. I am tired of sucking, and I don't mind sticking my neck out there for someone (Leach) that a lot of you hate only because he's beating down YOUR favorite college team(s). The guy is OWNING teams right now. "It's a system...it's a system..." Yeah, and it's a dang good one. Beats our Broncos II system to you-know-where-and-back.

Who's tired of tinkering with bits and pieces of a failing system? Or do we just want to believe that hoping and wishing is going to bring the desired results? Drastic times call for drastic measures. Sometimes, you have to storm the ship and cut a few throats. :pirate:

noxiousdog
11-10-2008, 10:58 AM
I thought it was pretty well established that college coaches don't convert to the pros very well.

utahmark
11-10-2008, 10:59 AM
people figured out how to stop the run n shoot.

the only thing wrong with our offense right now is our qb's and the fact they turn the ball over to much. now you want to put them in the run n shoot.:gun:

Hervoyel
11-10-2008, 10:59 AM
...The Run-N-Shoot.

You want to completely scrap this failed Broncos II experiment? You want to see this team actually DO something? To become a weapon of mass yardage?

Then bring back the Run-N-Shoot. Except this time, head it up with the guy who is about to coach TTU to a national championship. Bring in a guy who sees 1:30 left on the clock and KNOWS his team is going to win. Bring in a guy who is a proven winner with a cast of players that no other Division I team would care to offer a scholarship to. Bring in a guy who has a fascination with pirates because pirates take what they want. :pirate:

And then draft the QB for the team who is about to win the national championship. Draft the guy who passes the ball for a living. Draft the guy who could translate the offense from the HC to the other players. draft the guy who throws the ball to Andre Johnson, Jr.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. We cannot run the ball in this scheme, we cannot get our magnificent QBs to play well in this system on a consistent basis against legitimate teams.

When we ran the run-n-shoot, it was an identity. It was a culture. You cannot hide the fact that when you look back on Houston pro football, that your best years as a fan were the times when Webster Slaughter, Ernest Givins, Haywood Jeffires, and the rest of the crew were running circles around defenses. We were going to win the Super Bowl one year when the system was clicking at its best, but the engine stalled and Bud Adams was already throwing the components overboard for his jump out of Houston.

Your tired of sucking? Then petition our owner and let him know that they took our colors. They took our logo. But they can never take our freedom--Our freedom to pass for 400 and even maybe 500 yards a game.

Mike Leach, at some point, IS going to jump to the NFL and try to raid the NFL like the pirate he his. Let's see to it that Bob McNair is the smart guy who pays the pirate to raid the other 31 teams in the NFL.

I'll be making a signature and avatar for it later this evening. I am tired of sucking, and I don't mind sticking my neck out there for someone (Leach) that a lot of you hate only because he's beating down YOUR favorite college team(s). The guy is OWNING teams right now. "It's a system...it's a system..." Yeah, and it's a dang good one. Beats our Broncos II system to you-know-where-and-back.

Who's tired of tinkering with bits and pieces of a failing system? Or do we just want to believe that hoping and wishing is going to bring the desired results? Drastic times call for drastic measures. Sometimes, you have to storm the ship and cut a few throats. :pirate:

Sorry, flaw in your plan.

Also I'd rather be running the ball for a couple hundred yards a game and winning as opposed to throwing it for four hundred but that's just me. I'm at the point right now where I'd be willing to try just about anything to get the Texans out of the cellar.

GP
11-10-2008, 11:01 AM
I thought it was pretty well established that college coaches don't convert to the pros very well.

How many NFL coaches have ZERO college coaching experience?

Jimmy Johnson did OK. So it's possible.

The only thing that held back Mike Leach from doing (in the past) what he's doing now? A defense. Which would be handled in Houston pretty quickly if a new HC were brought on board.

JWarren14
11-10-2008, 11:02 AM
http://www.thewizofodds.com/the_wiz_of_odds/images/2008/08/21/leach_2.jpg
http://jacquestaylorblog.dallasnews.com/tech14-thumb-250x181.jpg

Couldn't agree more

G. Harrell 40/50 456 yards 9.1 yds per comp 6tds 0int

What I also loved was when the Pirate put in next years QB and he went 5/5 for 60 yards and a score just to let everyone know we got players for next year.

Ill sign your petition

GP
11-10-2008, 11:04 AM
Sorry, flaw in your plan.

Also I'd rather be running the ball for a couple hundred yards a game and winning as opposed to throwing it for four hundred but that's just me. I'm at the point right now where I'd be willing to try just about anything to get the Texans out of the cellar.

But the Oilers utilized the screen pass to Lorenzo White (and later on to Gary Brown) as if it WERE the same as running the ball. It was a long handoff.

The thing that makes me believe we could do it is that we have the firepower on our WR and TE group, as well as a REAL bonified spread offense RB who is already here.

We have the components in place, right under our noses. We just need the captain (Leach) and the QB (Harrell) to implement it.

I'm not afraid of the thought of returning to the Run-N-Shoot. Why? Because what we HAVE is not working. I even think we could put TTU and the Texans on the field today, and I think the Red Raiders would win or give them a run for their money.

noxiousdog
11-10-2008, 11:04 AM
How many NFL coaches have ZERO college coaching experience?

Jimmy Johnson did OK. So it's possible.

The only thing that held back Mike Leach from doing (in the past) what he's doing now? A defense. Which would be handled in Houston pretty quickly if a new HC were brought on board.

I'm sure it's possible, but it's the exception. Patrino, Saben, Spurrier, and Davis were absolutely terrible, and all had significantly better resumes than Mike Leach.

That's just off the top of my head. It's a different game with a different skill set.

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Leach's offense will more then likely not work in the pros. Hell, there are times it doesn't work in college. The spread is a college offense, think of it as the passing version of the triple option. Works great in college, but will fail in the pros simply because of the increased athleticsim of the defenses in the NFL.

Plus I want Leach at Tech for the rest of my life if at all possible.

GP
11-10-2008, 11:11 AM
I'm sure it's possible, but it's the exception. Patrino, Saben, Spurrier, and Davis were absolutely terrible, and all had significantly better resumes than Mike Leach.

That's just off the top of my head. It's a different game with a different skill set.

They failed because they tried to be a college coach on a pro team, and by trying to pull the RELATIONAL MANIPULATION by the HC that works in college...doesn't work against pro players. College coaches can end or severely hamper a college players' career hopes if the player doesn't abide by the HC's wishes. And when they jump to the pros as a HC, they find out that they cannot bulldoze the players and coaches...they get resentful and agitated, and the lose locker room control. Period.

Mike Leach is not a typical college coach. In fact, he's more of an NFL coach: Laid back, confident, and trusting of his cast members. He would get the players he needed, carry his scrap paper that has his 12 plays on it, and let them do their thing.

He doesn't pull the rah-rah locker room speeches and stuff that college coaches try to do when they become a pro HC.

Marcus
11-10-2008, 11:17 AM
The NFL has another name for the Run-N-Shoot.

It's called the Chuck-N-Duck.

Yeah, it works in college. But with the speed of NFL defenses - nada.

GP
11-10-2008, 11:17 AM
Leach's offense will more then likely not work in the pros. Hell, there are times it doesn't work in college. The spread is a college offense, think of it as the passing version of the triple option. Works great in college, but will fail in the pros simply because of the increased athleticsim of the defenses in the NFL.

Plus I want Leach at Tech for the rest of my life if at all possible.

Not true.

A VERY scaled-down version of it worked when the Oilers ran it. That system was kid's play compared to what Leach runs today. Leach took that system and perfected it.

People laughed at TTU when Leach instituted it at Tech. "Ah, it's just a gimmick!" was the response. And a porous defense helped to hide the offense's true potential (That, and a lack of a running game). But look what happend when both of those were addressed and improved upon: They are clicking, just like Pardee's team did back in the day.

It worked in Houston, but the timing of Bud's jump from Houston (and the debacle in Buffalo, and the aging of Moon) spelled the end of it. But it DID work in the NFL, even on a much smaller scale than what is done today.

Plus, someone is going to pony up the money to get Mike Leach eventually. That's a given, I think. Some NFL owner, somewhere, is going to get tired of sucking and the light is going to go on inside his head.

This is a day of innovation and risk-taking. I think it'd work.

GP
11-10-2008, 11:21 AM
The NFL has another name for the Run-N-Shoot.

It's called the Chuck-N-Duck.

Yeah, it works in college. But with the speed of NFL defenses - nada.

My counter is this: It actually negates defensive speed because of the vast amount of adjusting the WRs do "on the fly." It's a system that thrives on taking advantage of what a defense does.

WRs adjust their routes in the middle of the play, running to open parts of the field based upon where the defense had chosen to vacate.

THE only way to stop the spread? Do what Alabama did to Tech in the Cotton Bowl: Get to the QB all day long. Ask DeMeco Ryans about that.

I look at the sack numbers, the interception numbers, and the W-L column of the Raiders against very legitimate teams...and I think it can translate to the pros. The only kicker is this: Protecting the Qb, and having a QB who can get rid of the ball no matter what.

Wolf
11-10-2008, 11:24 AM
I don't like Oklahoma but bob stoops is a heck of a coach rather have him try out than Leach

GP
11-10-2008, 11:25 AM
I am sensing that the real opposition to this idea is based upon an inability to take a risk. Which I find laughable.

Because what we've tried to do for three years is not working unless we schedule the Lions and the Bengals every other weekend.

I'm going to stop for awhile, because I think I addressed a lot of poster's concerns...which I think are actually a veil for a larger issue: Not wanting to be seen as a gimmick by the sports media. Tech is overcoming that stigma quite nicely.

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 11:27 AM
Not true.

A VERY scaled-down version of it worked when the Oilers ran it. That system was kid's play compared to what Leach runs today. Leach took that system and perfected it.

People laughed at TTU when Leach instituted it at Tech. "Ah, it's just a gimmick!" was the response. And a porous defense helped to hide the offense's true potential (That, and a lack of a running game). But look what happend when both of those were addressed and improved upon: They are clicking, just like Pardee's team did back in the day.

It worked in Houston, but the timing of Bud's jump from Houston (and the debacle in Buffalo, and the aging of Moon) spelled the end of it. But it DID work in the NFL, even on a much smaller scale than what is done today.

Plus, someone is going to pony up the money to get Mike Leach eventually. That's a given, I think. Some NFL owner, somewhere, is going to get tired of sucking and the light is going to go on inside his head.

This is a day of innovation and risk-taking. I think it'd work.

The Run-N-Shot died in the second half on that fateful day in Buffalo. You may win games with the run-n-shot, but you will not win a title with it.

noxiousdog
11-10-2008, 11:29 AM
My counter is this: It actually negates defensive speed because of the vast amount of adjusting the WRs do "on the fly." It's a system that thrives on taking advantage of what a defense does.

WRs adjust their routes in the middle of the play, running to open parts of the field based upon where the defense had chosen to vacate.

Even in Madden WR's have options on their routes. I'll take a wild guess that NFL playbooks are slightly more complicated than Madden.

texanhead08
11-10-2008, 11:37 AM
We have no room to rip the run and shoot we havent won games much less have the room to cry about an offense not winning a title.

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 11:40 AM
I am sensing that the real opposition to this idea is based upon an inability to take a risk. Which I find laughable.

Because what we've tried to do for three years is not working unless we schedule the Lions and the Bengals every other weekend.

I'm going to stop for awhile, because I think I addressed a lot of poster's concerns...which I think are actually a veil for a larger issue: Not wanting to be seen as a gimmick by the sports media. Tech is overcoming that stigma quite nicely.

Dude, I went to Tech and have an unhealthy man-crush on Leach, but I have serious doubts that Leach's offense will work in the pros.

The difference in talent between a group of pro LBs and DBs and their college counterparts in staggering. Tech completed most of their passes agaisnt the middle of OSU defence llast week. Why? Because their LBs were unable to cover Techs WRs. I don't recall seeing any of OSU's LBs being list as pro potential. See the 2005 Cotton Bowl (or the vast majority of the Tevh v UT or Tech v OU games) for what happens when an atheltic LB corp and secondary meet Tech.

On top of that Tech's offense works because the QB is given an insane amount of time to make his reads and to wait of routes to develop or WRs to break free. As any Texans fan should know, few NFL QBs get the amount of time in the pocket that Harrell does.

The other factor in all of this is Leach himself. The man is to different to be an NFL head coach. And I think he knows it.

Texan_Bill
11-10-2008, 11:41 AM
The Run-N-Shot died in the second half on that fateful day in Buffalo. You may win games with the run-n-shot, but you will not win a title with it.

Winner, winner... Chicken dinner. Hoth summed it up the best. It will allow you to win games, but not so much in the play-offs...

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 11:42 AM
We have no room to rip the run and shoot we havent won games much less have the room to cry about an offense not winning a title.

As a former Oiler fan, I beleive I've earned the right to shred the run-n-shoot when ever I please. The game in Buffalo saw to that.

b0ng
11-10-2008, 12:07 PM
Our offensive line would get Graham Harrell murdered in the pro's if we went to a run and shoot. The line is made to run-block, and they don't do that well against top tier defenses. Smallish, athletic guys on the line means that we shouldn't be taking any more than a 3 step drop, a shotgun formation, or a play fake. This is how we get Schaub injured, and make Rosenfels want us to pull our collective hair out.

Also, Mike Leach's offense is gimmicky and as good as the Red Raiders are, I would rather not be subject to his experimental first few years as a HC in the NFL. We're already doing that with Kubiak and it's pissing most of you off as it is, I don't see why you would want to dance that dance again. I know he went on interviews last year with the Redskins so why wouldn't Spagnuolo be a viable option for HC? Everybody loves hard hitting defense and he's pretty much coached the best one for the past two seasons.

We would really need some good money behind that hiring though and we'd pretty much kill off any chance that we see any more development out of Schaub, and the offense might take a step back.

BuffaloglennTX
11-10-2008, 12:16 PM
But the Oilers utilized the screen pass to Lorenzo White (and later on to Gary Brown) as if it WERE the same as running the ball. It was a long handoff.

The thing that makes me believe we could do it is that we have the firepower on our WR and TE group, as well as a REAL bonified spread offense RB who is already here.

We have the components in place, right under our noses. We just need the captain (Leach) and the QB (Harrell) to implement it.

I'm not afraid of the thought of returning to the Run-N-Shoot. Why? Because what we HAVE is not working. I even think we could put TTU and the Texans on the field today, and I think the Red Raiders would win or give them a run for their money.


I agree with you on a few things here but this last statement is delusional. You also don't address our biggest weakness: DEFENSE.

Seņor Stan
11-10-2008, 12:19 PM
The run and shoot would work against the Richard Smith Texans defense.

There is no way that Anthony Weaver can drop back into coverage and handle a WR.

Mr. White
11-10-2008, 12:30 PM
I think that Mike Leach would be the ideal coach for this team. I doubt he'd run the spread if he were a pro coach, though.

IIRC, Oklahoma didn't run the spread when he was an OC over there. I think he runs it now out of necessity because it's tough to recruit for a more conventional offense when you're up against Stoops and Brown every year.

Even though the current theory is that college coaches don't translate to the NFL, I think that he'll get some NFL interviews this off-season.

FirstTexansFan
11-10-2008, 12:33 PM
Who knows what'll work in the NFL? Seems the gimmicky stuff Miami's been running lately is college related, and confuses the bejeezus out of those pro athletes. As for the run and shoot, it had it's issues, but I don't think it was the run and shoot that lost the game at Buffalo, that was just pure over confidence then a total letdown in momentum on the Oilers part. I appreciate the different look on things GP, though probably not happening, it's fun to dream :)

Hervoyel
11-10-2008, 12:37 PM
I'm not against it, like I said I'll try anything at this point. All I meant was that I generally prefer to watch a team with a brutal running game over a team with a high flying passing game. It's a personal preference, nothing more.

I'd watch them run the veer if they could win with it.

Texan_Bill
11-10-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm not against it, like I said I'll try anything at this point. All I meant was that I generally prefer to watch a team with a brutal running game over a team with a high flying passing game. It's a personal preference, nothing more.

I'd watch them run the veer if they could win with it.

You were sooooo spoiled by Earl..... :tiphat:

TimeKiller
11-10-2008, 01:09 PM
THE only way to stop the spread? Do what Alabama did to Tech in the Cotton Bowl: Get to the QB all day long. Ask DeMeco Ryans about that.
.

You're advocating a system that can be stopped by getting to the QB for the Texans?

Silver Oak
11-10-2008, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE=GP;1048576When we ran the run-n-shoot, it was an identity. It was a culture. You cannot hide the fact that when you look back on Houston pro football, that your best years as a fan were the times when Webster Slaughter, Ernest Givins, Haywood Jeffires, and the rest of the crew were running circles around defenses. [/QUOTE]

actually, besides the losing years, I hated that era of Oiler football the most. 2-3 yd passes all game long...phooey.

give me a team with a great running game, and a feared defense and you'll have a die hard fan.

GP
11-10-2008, 01:41 PM
The run and shoot would work against the Richard Smith Texans defense.

There is no way that Anthony Weaver can drop back into coverage and handle a WR.

LOL. No doubt. That's funny, but true all at the same time.

BTW, we're seeing more teams (The Ravens, for instance) utilize the Wildcat formation because the Dolphins showed that it can work. Who did the Dolphins get the inspiration from? A coach on their staff who ran it while at Arkansas, correct?

But that college stuff can't work in the NFL, right?

Look at Tech's line: Big, nasty road graders that ya'll are all clamoring for instead of the lightweights we have right now. Leach would grab up some big nasties, teach them the wide-gap technique and how it works. And with the big nasties...you can RUN the ball.

You can line up in a traditional formation and run the ball, or pass out of it and further confuse the defense. LOL. And then Leach, vs. OSU, was throwing a Wildcat formation into the mix with Crabtree back there as if he was going to take the snap or the handoff. Brilliant. You could see the OSU line getting anxious pre-snap.

If we had a good defense, the Run-N-Shoot would garner more support. Buddy Ryan's nasty 46 D was an integral part of why the gimmicky offense was able to operate, IMO. It's a pretty good 1-2 punch combination against other teams. But as it stands right now, we're so shaky on defense that nobody wants to risk going in a whole difeerent direction. It's understandable. I just don't think Kubiak will adjust his staff. A new HC will. And you'll see Marciano retained. Again. And you'll see most of the others released. Again.

Norg
11-10-2008, 01:49 PM
This is texas for goodness sake

we must become a Run first Past second team

and Defensive defensive defensive

TexanSam
11-10-2008, 02:37 PM
I am sensing that the real opposition to this idea is based upon an inability to take a risk. Which I find laughable.

Because what we've tried to do for three years is not working unless we schedule the Lions and the Bengals every other weekend.

I'm going to stop for awhile, because I think I addressed a lot of poster's concerns...which I think are actually a veil for a larger issue: Not wanting to be seen as a gimmick by the sports media. Tech is overcoming that stigma quite nicely.

That's exactly why I'm opposed to it. If the Texans are going to make a change in coaches this offseason, I don't want to take a risk on a guy who's never been a coach in the NFL. I don't even want to take a risk on another coordinator. I want a coach who's been a proven winner IN THE NFL.

GP
11-10-2008, 02:59 PM
That's exactly why I'm opposed to it. If the Texans are going to make a change in coaches this offseason, I don't want to take a risk on a guy who's never been a coach in the NFL. I don't even want to take a risk on another coordinator. I want a coach who's been a proven winner IN THE NFL.

So find those proven HCs out there, who are not locked up in a contract, and tell me who is going to come to Houston.

Cowher? I doubt it.

Marty? Maybe, but is he really the guy we want when it comes playoff time?

What's left after those two guys? If we're talking "proven" winner here. Jimmy Johnson went to the Fins and that didn't pan out.

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 03:01 PM
So find those proven HCs out there, who are not locked up in a contract, and tell me who is going to come to Houston.

Cowher? I doubt it.

Marty? Maybe, but is he really the guy we want when it comes playoff time?

What's left after those two guys? If we're talking "proven" winner here. Jimmy Johnson went to the Fins and that didn't pan out.

Says the guy who is advocating a return to the run-n-shoot?

Errant Hothy
11-10-2008, 03:02 PM
This is texas for goodness sake

we must become a Run first Past second team

and Defensive defensive defensive

If HS football is any indicator as to what equals football in this state, then the spread offense is king.

ArlingtonTexan
11-10-2008, 03:41 PM
If HS football is any indicator as to what equals football in this state, then the spread offense is king.

He must not watch in college football in Texas either.

TexanSam
11-10-2008, 03:46 PM
So find those proven HCs out there, who are not locked up in a contract, and tell me who is going to come to Houston.

Cowher? I doubt it.

Marty? Maybe, but is he really the guy we want when it comes playoff time?

What's left after those two guys? If we're talking "proven" winner here. Jimmy Johnson went to the Fins and that didn't pan out.

There aren't many options which is why, among other reason, I think Kubiak will probably be back next year.