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Silver Oak
11-07-2008, 04:33 PM
breaking news.

Updating prior reports, Sean Jensen of the St. Paul Pioneer Press reports that Vikings defensive end Jared Allen has been fined $50,000 for a total of two improper hits applied to Texans quarterback Matt Schaub.

The hits violated Rule 12, Section 2, Article 12(5) of the NFL Official Playing Rules: “A rushing defender who has an unrestricted path to the passer from any direction is prohibited from forcibly hitting the passer in the knee area or below.”

Allen has said he’ll appeal the fines. But he should be glad he wasn’t suspended. Allen rolls his shoulder pad area into Schaub’s legs in both instances. Allen knew what he was doing; he wanted to knock Schaub out of the game. Here’s the video, once again.


http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/11/07/allen-fined-50000/

Sal Rosenberg
11-07-2008, 04:45 PM
That took long enough!

nunusguy
11-07-2008, 04:48 PM
The second incident was even more obvious. What a chicken-sh@@ !

Goldensilence
11-07-2008, 04:57 PM
Should've been 50k and a game suspension without pay.

I know football is a high impact game but trying to purposely take a player out is wrong. I wonder how Allen would've reacted if he was chop blocked away from the direction of the play and with it being up field. I hope this puts a bulls eye on Allen the rest of the season for opposing teams.

drewmar74
11-07-2008, 04:59 PM
I might like to have seen a suspension on top of the fine, but hey, I'll take what I can get.

texanhead08
11-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Its good it happened but it still doesn't cure the fact that Schaub got hurt on another dirty play.

rush2112mn
11-07-2008, 05:05 PM
I still think game(s) suspension would be appropiate too....

drewmar74
11-07-2008, 05:10 PM
I like what Winston had to say about it - I only wish that they HAD retaliated instead of just talking about it after the fact...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/

Another guy who might end up getting a fine is Texans tackle Eric Winston, who in a recent radio appearance on Sports Radio 610 in Houston questioned the decision of the officials not to penalize Allen for roughing the passer.

“The worst part is the fact it wasn’t even flagged,” Winston said, calling the decision not to penalize Allen “ridiculous.”

Winston also said that, if he and his teammates had realized that Allen had hit Schaub low, there would have been retaliation.

“If we would’ve known what we know now, some of us probably would have taken a fine or ejection to get back at him,” Winston said.

We think Allen got off easy. If the league’s goal is to ensure that a 32-team league with less than 32 good quarterbacks can provide entertaining football games each week, Allen’s dive at Schaub’s leg should have resulted in a one-week suspension.

Mari-OWNED!
11-07-2008, 05:14 PM
He should be suspended some games or fined more.

$50,000 to professional football players is like $20 to the middle class.

powerfuldragon
11-07-2008, 05:16 PM
i didn't expect the nfl to give him more than a fine. surprised they fined him 50k

IlliniJen
11-07-2008, 05:16 PM
The fact that he did it twice should have gotten him at least a game suspension.

powerfuldragon
11-07-2008, 05:31 PM
The fact that he did it twice should have gotten him at least a game suspension.

yeah, but the nfl doesn't give half a turd about houston teams/fans.

Jackie Chiles
11-07-2008, 05:58 PM
yeah, but the nfl doesn't give half a turd about houston teams/fans.

I think the lack of a suspension probably has more to do with him being a first time offender (in regards to the hit not his off the field stuff). I am actually really surprised at the 50K fine, that is a legit fine. If this happens again he will get suspended.

Double Barrel
11-07-2008, 06:00 PM
Good for the NFL, but we're still down a starting QB and get to sit on the edge of our seats for the next 3-4 weaks waiting for Rosencopter's next Epic Meltdown.

I hope Allen's shoulder injury is long and nagging.

Jackie Chiles
11-07-2008, 06:04 PM
I guess I was wrong about it being his first offense:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3688743

"Allen declined comment on the fine due to his desire to appeal the punishment. Texans coach Gary Kubiak called Allen's hit a cheap shot earlier in the week. Last month, Allen was docked $5,000 by the league for a late hit against Chicago."

50K>>>5K though so I guess its 3 strikes and your out in regards to suspensions. That is really a lot of money though if you look at the other fines for the week.

IlliniJen
11-07-2008, 06:08 PM
yeah, but the nfl doesn't give half a turd about houston teams/fans.

Well, how about we send a FULL turd to NFL headquarters then to let them know what we think about this ruling?

TheRealJoker
11-07-2008, 06:14 PM
At least some action was taken. I think this fine was to appease Texans Chick since she was probably the only person covering the story :)

Hardcore Texan
11-07-2008, 06:31 PM
It wasn't enough and there should have been a suspension but look on the bright side the POS, dirty, filthy, scum-sucking, bastard has a 3rd degree seperated shoulder on top of that, so I do feel a little better. :tiphat:

b0ng
11-07-2008, 06:38 PM
I'm surprised the NFL actually fined him.

nero THE zero
11-07-2008, 07:19 PM
He should be suspended some games or fined more.

$50,000 to professional football players is like $20 to the middle class.

Actually, it's like $95 to someone that makes $50k. That's less than a speeding ticket.

mussop
11-07-2008, 07:54 PM
Im glad he got somw sort of fine but cmon. How about an eye for an eye. We lost our starting QB for 4 weeks! He should be suspended for 4 weeks! Seriously, if a player hurts another player by commiting a foul (on purpose)then that player should have to sit out for as long as the hurt player has to. That would stop these type of players from doing this type of crap. Its not even his first offence, its his 2nd and 3rd!

texanhead08
11-07-2008, 08:28 PM
No player would ever admit they tried to injure someone on purpose even if they did. That would be career suicide.

Drew_Smoke
11-07-2008, 10:28 PM
I just watched the exchange between Schaub and Allen after the game. Matt's face said, "F U" cuz he's a nice guy. Allen's tone said it all. He knew he was wrong.

HJam72
11-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Im glad he got somw sort of fine but cmon. How about an eye for an eye. We lost our starting QB for 4 weeks! He should be suspended for 4 weeks! Seriously, if a player hurts another player by commiting a foul (on purpose)then that player should have to sit out for as long as the hurt player has to. That would stop these type of players from doing this type of crap. Its not even his first offence, its his 2nd and 3rd!

Yep, that's how I feel about it. But, I still think part of the problem is that Schaub is injury-prone.

Hooston Texan
11-08-2008, 12:49 AM
Well, so far that's, officially speaking, $65,000 worth of cheap shots on Schaub in the last twelve months. And Haynesworth was nearly fined for the Siragusa-esque plop job he pulled on Schaub last year.

And I am not impressed by Winston's quote at all. Doesn't take much to talk tough: I woulda if I'da seen it! If I'm the coaches, I'm playing clips of those hits at halftime. Frankly, I was hoping Briesel's pile-drive was a conscious act of retaliation: it's about time we sent a hard message not to screw with our guys. This marshmellow act is pretty old.

beerlover
11-08-2008, 03:19 AM
Im glad he got somw sort of fine but cmon. How about an eye for an eye. We lost our starting QB for 4 weeks! He should be suspended for 4 weeks! Seriously, if a player hurts another player by commiting a foul (on purpose)then that player should have to sit out for as long as the hurt player has to. That would stop these type of players from doing this type of crap. Its not even his first offence, its his 2nd and 3rd!

sounds like its time to go a little old school :dangit:

the play was both instinctive & premediated, thats why he got the big FA contract :money: now, how do you combat that when you don't see him again? I strongly support Eric Winston for the Pro-Bowl. he deserves it. he needs it. he has a debt to pay. does that sound a little too premediated?

Malloy
11-08-2008, 04:21 AM
My take.

First I am glad that the league actually fined him for what was considered a cheap-shot. Second I would have liked to see a penalty more in line with the injury caused, and a $50k fine to someone earning milions is likely not going to hurt him that much.

This is the thing, already this season there's been a few nasty knee-hits on QBs, for one Tom Brady went down because of this. That combined with the league being fairly good at ajusting the game rules according to player and play trends, I have a feeling that we might start seeing a tougher line against players or teams (collective punishment) that cause this sort of injury.

Short of HUGE fines I have a hard time seeing how any punishment short of a suspension or a collective punishment would work. I actually mentioned this earlier in a thread, but I would like to see the real bad penalties include a free trip to the 20-yard line (or 1-yard line if inside), a situation that would likely result in points scored off a penalty.

One think is for sure, while I like the penalty system in Football, there is a discreptancy between the the different types of penalties. For example a personal foul against a QB can result in a 15-yard penalty, but against a reciever it is a possible 99 yard pass interference penalty. So wasting a QBs knee is 15 yards, touching a WRs hand is up to 99 yards.
Now THAT I have a problem with...

Texans_Chick
11-08-2008, 09:24 AM
At least some action was taken. I think this fine was to appease Texans Chick since she was probably the only person covering the story :)

It just made me so angry. Schaub is finally getting it together, and this hit might derail his career. Here were TWO clear violations of the rules. NEITHER got flagged. This is a year where player safety and especially QB safety is a point of emphasis. NEITHER got any media attention because Schaub's knee injury was just a Houston Texan I guess. And people just assumed that Schaub was fragile.

And then when Allen finally started talking about it, he lied and said the QB still had the ball.

But when people could see video there own danged selves, they could see that Schaub had released the ball, and Allen's hits were textbook versions of how you are not supposed to hit the QB.

To put the 50K fine in context, Brian Urlacher got fined $100,000 for wearing a hat of a non-Super Bowl sponsor at the Super Bowl. And Allen has one of the largest DE contracts in the league.

It's just frustrating.

False Start
11-08-2008, 09:34 AM
To put the 50K fine in context, Brian Urlacher got fined $100,000 for wearing a hat of a non-Super Bowl sponsor at the Super Bowl. And Allen has one of the largest DE contracts in the league.

It's just frustrating.

Wow, that just makes this fine even more insulting. At least it wasn't completely ignored, but still.

Thorn
11-08-2008, 09:42 AM
One think is for sure, while I like the penalty system in Football, there is a discreptancy between the the different types of penalties. For example a personal foul against a QB can result in a 15-yard penalty, but against a reciever it is a possible 99 yard pass interference penalty. So wasting a QBs knee is 15 yards, touching a WRs hand is up to 99 yards.
Now THAT I have a problem with...

A very good point there.....I totally agree with you.

hot pickle
11-08-2008, 12:19 PM
omg he says hes gonna appeal it... like the first one was kinda iffy but the second one he clearly did it on purpose... what a joke

powerfuldragon
11-08-2008, 12:55 PM
omg he says hes gonna appeal it...

i hope whatever appellate board he goes to gives him a tougher punishment.

Specnatz
11-08-2008, 01:27 PM
It just made me so angry. Schaub is finally getting it together, and this hit might derail his career. Here were TWO clear violations of the rules. NEITHER got flagged. This is a year where player safety and especially QB safety is a point of emphasis. NEITHER got any media attention because Schaub's knee injury was just a Houston Texan I guess. And people just assumed that Schaub was fragile.

And then when Allen finally started talking about it, he lied and said the QB still had the ball.

But when people could see video there own danged selves, they could see that Schaub had released the ball, and Allen's hits were textbook versions of how you are not supposed to hit the QB.

To put the 50K fine in context, Brian Urlacher got fined $100,000 for wearing a hat of a non-Super Bowl sponsor at the Super Bowl. And Allen has one of the largest DE contracts in the league.

It's just frustrating.

Not to walk by and throw all your tailgating food and prep work on the floor and step on it; but here is another example of how Messed up the league is. Justin Tuck of the New York Giants got flagged for a completely legal hit and then was fined $7500 for it. It got all kinds of media attention, for one being completely asinine fine and penalty and two it was the damn cowgirls. I honestly believe the league fined Tuck because he hit a cowboys QB. This fine came early Thursday morning, where as this one did not come out until midday Friday. It is almost as if the league did not want to fine him but did not have a choice.

I honestly have no clue what is a penalty or fine anymore. Remember that huge comeback the possums had against the Giants last year or the year before? There was a play in that game where a Giant defensive player had princess sorta wrapped up and was pushing him back. The defensive player let go and stopped thinking the whistle had been blown but well princess ran for a huge gain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU60bzITd2U 1:52 mark or so.

The league is so inconsistent right now about penalties and flags it is not even funny.

Silver Oak
11-08-2008, 02:12 PM
But, I still think part of the problem is that Schaub is injury-prone.

that's not even close to reality.

Schaub got a concussion from a cheap shot under the helmet from Florence, a dislocated shoulder from one of the inbreds on a driving tackle, and now this from two cheap shots from Allen.

now tell me one QB in the league who would'nt have lost time to any of those hits and I'll give your point some credit.

Leahmic223
11-08-2008, 04:17 PM
Well Dlinemen from opposing teams are saying they aren't afraid of Matt beating them, it is extremely lame though how they all cheap shot him.

As TC said, it frustrates me because Matt was turning it around. I personally think he was WELL AWARE of what people thought of him, I think he was on a mission to prove people wrong about him and Allen decided to recklessly go after his knee twice.

Yes, the second tackle Matt had THROWN THE BALL! Not only did Matt throw the ball...but Allen was making his second effort to the QB, he just made it free from his blocker and then decides to drive his helmet into his knee, this being the second time he hit Matt in the knee.

I'm glad he's out against the Packers. Because it's a big game for them.

Texans_Chick
11-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Not to walk by and throw all your tailgating food and prep work on the floor and step on it; but here is another example of how Messed up the league is. Justin Tuck of the New York Giants got flagged for a completely legal hit and then was fined $7500 for it. It got all kinds of media attention, for one being completely asinine fine and penalty and two it was the damn cowgirls. I honestly believe the league fined Tuck because he hit a cowboys QB. This fine came early Thursday morning, where as this one did not come out until midday Friday. It is almost as if the league did not want to fine him but did not have a choice.

I honestly have no clue what is a penalty or fine anymore. Remember that huge comeback the possums had against the Giants last year or the year before? There was a play in that game where a Giant defensive player had princess sorta wrapped up and was pushing him back. The defensive player let go and stopped thinking the whistle had been blown but well princess ran for a huge gain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU60bzITd2U 1:52 mark or so.

The league is so inconsistent right now about penalties and flags it is not even funny.


Goodell rescinded the Tuck fine.

As for the comeback against the Giants, you can do just about anything to a QB who is running. Which is why most teams don't want their QB to run.

Vinny
11-09-2008, 08:54 AM
My take.
For example a personal foul against a QB can result in a 15-yard penalty, but against a reciever it is a possible 99 yard pass interference penalty. So wasting a QBs knee is 15 yards, touching a WRs hand is up to 99 yards.
Now THAT I have a problem with...no problem with the 99 yard penalty for the pass interference from my pov. If they didn't do that, all you would see all game long is players giving up the penalty every time the ball is thrown deep and accurately. I think the league has tried hard to cut down on QB hits so I don't have a problem with their efforts...just the administration and equality of the punishments.

CloakNNNdagger
11-09-2008, 09:40 AM
no problem with the 99 yard penalty for the pass interference from my pov. If they didn't do that, all you would see all game long is players giving up the penalty every time the ball is thrown deep and accurately. I think the league has tried hard to cut down on QB hits so I don't have a problem with their efforts...just the administration and equality of the punishments.


With drugs and steroids, there is a policy of consequences that are layed out in written detail...........A leads to B, C leads to D, etc.

With inappropriate violent hits, there are no written course of actions layed out by the NFL. It's evidently done by the flip of the coin behind closed doors.

Just as with Drugs/Steriods, there should be a policy spelled out to act as a "pre-emptive" discouragement to the behavior. Most importantly, the consequence must be such that they are likely to dissuade players from following an aberrant course. Fifty thousand dollars is unlikely a deterrent to a player making millions. A significant percentage of salary fine, along with a period of suspension and loss of pay for each game missed.........would probably catch players' attention........

Malloy
11-09-2008, 11:11 AM
no problem with the 99 yard penalty for the pass interference from my pov. If they didn't do that, all you would see all game long is players giving up the penalty every time the ball is thrown deep and accurately. I think the league has tried hard to cut down on QB hits so I don't have a problem with their efforts...just the administration and equality of the punishments.

Dont get me wrong, I like the 99 pass interference call as much as the next guy, it is the discreptancy between this penalty and the 15 yard smacking up the passer penalty that I have a problem with.

As CloakNNN mentions, a harsher, and more clearly defined (as in written down) would, I believe, act as a deterrent to the players/teams gaining an advantage due to hurt players.

eriadoc
11-09-2008, 11:36 AM
Jared Allen's contract is six years, worth 74.5 million, with over $31 million guaranteed. So $50000 is 0.4% of his yearly salary.

To put that in perspective, if you arbitrarily assign a yearly salary of $50000 to the average Texans fan, that's like getting fined $200 for speeding or something - except for one thing - the graph curve is not linear, it's exponential. Those guys can afford that a helluva lot easier than we can.

cuppacoffee
11-09-2008, 11:44 AM
With drugs and steroids, there is a policy of consequences that are layed out in written detail...........A leads to B, C leads to D, etc.

With inappropriate violent hits, there are no written course of actions layed out by the NFL. It's evidently done by the flip of the coin behind closed doors.

Just as with Drugs/Steriods, there should be a policy spelled out to act as a "pre-emptive" discouragement to the behavior. Most importantly, the consequence must be such that they are likely to dissuade players from following an aberrant course. Fifty thousand dollars is unlikely a deterrent to a player making millions. A significant percentage of salary fine, along with a period of suspension and loss of pay for each game missed.........would probably catch players' attention........

Somewhere in A to B to C the team should forfeit a draft pick. That would have even more teeth. In this day of billionaire owners and millionaire players, :money: alone is not much of a deterrent. Losing a mid round draft pick would get their attention. Continue the dirty play, the pick moves up the chart.

All :fans: are paying more and more each year to attend the games. To have their hopes dashed by a thugs :worm: dirty play just isn't right.

:coffee:

CloakNNNdagger
11-09-2008, 12:13 PM
Somewhere in A to B to C the team should forfeit a draft pick. That would have even more teeth. In this day of billionaire owners and millionaire players, :money: alone is not much of a deterrent. Losing a mid round draft pick would get their attention. Continue the dirty play, the pick moves up the chart.

All :fans: are paying more and more each year to attend the games. To have their hopes dashed by a thugs :worm: dirty play just isn't right.

:coffee:

That would be a great deterrent.............it would bypass the player that can't be contained by "history and experience."

And I'm sure there would be very severe secondary consequences enjoyed by the player...........courtesy of the owner.

Malloy
11-09-2008, 12:32 PM
That would be a great deterrent.............it would bypass the player that can't be contained by "history and experience."

And I'm sure there would be very severe secondary consequences enjoyed by the player...........courtesy of the owner.

Salary cap penalty could be cool too. 5 mil off next years salary cap, whammo! Guess what player is gone! :)

3rd and Inches
11-09-2008, 02:45 PM
Personally, I think they should have suspended Allen as well as fining him. He was clearly attempting to take out Schaub's knees.. hits like that can completely ruin a player's career muchless a season. The NFL should have been a helluva lot more harsh other than slapping his hand and saying "Now if you do that again.. you won't be able to play football on Sunday". It's ridiculous. How are we supposed to send messages to these players that constantly make dirty hits when they get a joke of a repercussion as a result?

hookinreds
11-09-2008, 04:53 PM
He got another PF late hit on Rogers today (for the 5 minutes I was watching), it was a late hit, and I bet it gets reviewed by the league. You can see him tuck his head down at the last second to go helmet to chin on Rogers. This guys a tool.

Big Lou
12-10-2008, 12:57 AM
I hope everyone had the pleasure of seeing Jared Allen get a little taste of his own medicine from the Lions Rookie Tackle this week.

I don't want to see Allen's career endagered, but at least maybe now he has a better understanding of how it feels.

He acted like a little ***** when it happened to him just once, Cherilus should have made it 2 for 2, so he could see what Schaub went through on the bench:ohsnap::ohsnap:.

By the way whats with that ugly ass mullet he's sporting.

HEY JARED, BILLY RAY CIRUS CALLED AND HE WANTS HIS HAIR BACK!!!!!!

BuffaloglennTX
12-10-2008, 09:00 AM
I hope everyone had the pleasure of seeing Jared Allen get a little taste of his own medicine from the Lions Rookie Tackle this week.

I don't want to see Allen's career endagered, but at least maybe now he has a better understanding of how it feels.

He acted like a little ***** when it happened to him just once, Cherilus should have made it 2 for 2, so he could see what Schaub went through on the bench:ohsnap::ohsnap:.

By the way whats with that ugly ass mullet he's sporting.

HEY JARED, BILLY RAY CIRUS CALLED AND HE WANTS HIS HAIR BACK!!!!!!

It's a northern thing; Aaron Rodgers had one in his picture along with AJ Hawk. Mullets are still well alive in Michigan, Minn, and Wisconsin.

Señor Stan
12-10-2008, 09:23 AM
It's a northern thing; Aaron Rodgers had one in his picture along with AJ Hawk. Mullets are still well alive in Michigan, Minn, and Wisconsin.

Ahhh...the ever popular "Canadian Passport."

Hervoyel
12-10-2008, 09:41 AM
....It's a northern thing; Aaron Rodgers had one in his picture along with AJ Hawk. Mullets are still well alive in Michigan, Minn, and Wisconsin.


Which as you may or may not know is a primary reason for the initial exploration of that part of the country. The French-Canadian fur trappers of the early 1700's lived a wild, solitary life in the wilderness of the western Great Lakes region while pursuing the wild Mullet for it's pelt which they then sold to European merchants to satisfy the growing demand for Mullet hats which were popular in that era.

-Cliff Claven

Ole Miss Texan
12-10-2008, 10:25 AM
I used to think Allen was an alright guy but that completely changed during this season. It wasn't even that he cheapshotted Schaub, it's that he's been playing dirty all year. He's one of the most disliked players by me now. I forgot if it was a player or a coach, but one of them was even on record talked about Allen's ways. It could have been the Lion's head coach but don't hold me to it.

SteveSlaton20
12-10-2008, 11:09 AM
Should've been 50k and a game suspension without pay.

I know football is a high impact game but trying to purposely take a player out is wrong. I wonder how Allen would've reacted if he was chop blocked away from the direction of the play and with it being up field. I hope this puts a bulls eye on Allen the rest of the season for opposing teams.

i agree

Runner
12-10-2008, 11:22 AM
It's a northern thing; Aaron Rodgers had one in his picture along with AJ Hawk. Mullets are still well alive in Michigan, Minn, and Wisconsin.
The Mississippi mudflap is alive and well in the South as well.

Runner
12-10-2008, 11:28 AM
The Mississippi mudflap is alive and well in the South as well.


You'll also find the Missouri Compromise in the Midwest.

TimeKiller
12-10-2008, 11:32 AM
To the serious half of the thread: I think if a player takes a cheap shot at another (as in, the NFL saw fit to fine them more money than the average person makes in a year) and it results in a player being injured for a period of time, the guilty party should have to sit as long as the injured party.

To the funny half of the thread: MULLLLLEEEEETTTTTTTTSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Business up front, Party in the back!!

GP
12-10-2008, 12:17 PM
How about instead of a fine...the League Office says it's OK to cheap shot the offender the rest of the season?

You cheap shot somebody, and the League Office reviews the tapes and confirms that you indeed cheapshotted someone? Then you are a target the rest of the season with no punishment for those who cheapshot you.

I bet that would do away with it.

b0ng
12-10-2008, 12:26 PM
Jared allen is nothing more than a punk and a ***** who makes Albert Haynesworth look like Martin Luther King jr. I don"t care if he's willing to sacrifice his body for the entertainment of football fans I hope he get Joe Theismann'd on national TV by that same Lions player (Gosder Cherilius for all of you who need somebody to root for.), because it's pretty much what karma dictates happen.

And that's all that I have to say about that.

powerfuldragon
12-10-2008, 12:38 PM
Jared allen is nothing more than a punk and a ***** who makes Albert Haynesworth look like Martin Luther King jr.

dude stepped on a guy's face. that's way different.

Hervoyel
12-10-2008, 12:47 PM
dude stepped on a guy's face. that's way different.


Agreed. Allen has demonstrated that he's got an affinity for throwing a cheap shot on your QB. Fat Albert has demonstrated that he should have a felony conviction on his record. Totally different situation there. Haynesworth is a turd who can play football very, very well.

powerfuldragon
12-10-2008, 12:49 PM
right, i'm not saying that gunning for the knees isn't bad.. it's just part of the game.

Silver Oak
12-10-2008, 01:53 PM
I don't think Cherilus had the time to look up and see that it was Allen that he was blocking, but I still applaud the fact that he got him.