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Spled
10-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Questions?

Texan_Bill
10-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Yes.....


Just one..........


Why didn't you post that here: Reggie! Reggie! Reggie! (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54307&page=7)



:stirpot:

texanhead08
10-21-2008, 04:26 PM
Slaton is the answer Bush is still the question. Who will be an everydown back.

TheIronDuke
10-21-2008, 04:27 PM
Yes, why do some Texans fans talk about Reggie Bush even though he's not on our team?

CloakNNNdagger
10-21-2008, 04:31 PM
Yes, why do some Texans fans talk about Reggie Bush even though he's not on our team?

..............nor is he active on his team.

Second Honeymoon
10-21-2008, 04:48 PM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Something tells me that if he was a Texan, most of you would be some of the biggest Bush homers of all time. Go talk to Sean Payton and ask him if Bush is worth a damn.

Anyone who thinks Bush isn't a good football player, is just a hater. The guy has flaws and you may feel he was taken too early for what he has brought to the table, but to act like Slaton is any better than Bush or that because Slaton was picked later than Bush, that makes him a better player is just ridiculous.

Ok, so Terrell Davis is the greatest RB of all time because he wasn't given a sniff in the draft coming out of Georgia. Great logic.

I love Slaton, I just hope we all don't get too giddy with him and act like the RB situation is now all of a sudden fixed. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have our 'lightning' now get us our 'thunder'....or some more damn 'lightning'. We need to learn from the Domanick Davis situation.

dc_txtech
10-21-2008, 04:59 PM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Something tells me that if he was a Texan, most of you would be some of the biggest Bush homers of all time. Go talk to Sean Payton and ask him if Bush is worth a damn.

Anyone who thinks Bush isn't a good football player, is just a hater. The guy has flaws and you may feel he was taken too early for what he has brought to the table, but to act like Slaton is any better than Bush or that because Slaton was picked later than Bush, that makes him a better player is just ridiculous.

Ok, so Terrell Davis is the greatest RB of all time because he wasn't given a sniff in the draft coming out of Georgia. Great logic.

I love Slaton, I just hope we all don't get too giddy with him and act like the RB situation is now all of a sudden fixed. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have our 'lightning' now get us our 'thunder'....or some more damn 'lightning'.

I agree with a lot of this. Reggie has proved to be a good football player. But he hasn't proven to be good at running the football. In the offense he is in it seems to work out alright for him. In our offense I'm not so sure.

As far as Slaton goes, I think we have pretty much fixed our RB spot. We don't need another top flight back, just a guy who can come in and and carry the ball 10 times a game to give Slaton a breather and keep him fresh. Like a Buckhalter to Westbrook or a Betts to Portis. I actually think Green has done a pretty good job in that role this year, although I have no faith in him staying healthy.

D-Frank
10-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Something tells me that if he was a Texan, most of you would be some of the biggest Bush homers of all time. Go talk to Sean Payton and ask him if Bush is worth a damn.

Anyone who thinks Bush isn't a good football player, is just a hater. The guy has flaws and you may feel he was taken too early for what he has brought to the table, but to act like Slaton is any better than Bush or that because Slaton was picked later than Bush, that makes him a better player is just ridiculous.

Ok, so Terrell Davis is the greatest RB of all time because he wasn't given a sniff in the draft coming out of Georgia. Great logic.

I love Slaton, I just hope we all don't get too giddy with him and act like the RB situation is now all of a sudden fixed. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have our 'lightning' now get us our 'thunder'....or some more damn 'lightning'.

the reason why everyone always makes a big deal about bush is cause so many people were on our ass for not drafting him and picking mario. i dont care how good he is at punt returning and recieving out the backfield (cant say he is a good running back cause with that offensive line he should be able to get at least 4.0) you dont draft a guy that high to return punts.

o by the way he has a career long rush of 29 freakin yards. slaton has a 30 yard run it seems like almost every game. just my little 2 sense

CloakNNNdagger
10-21-2008, 05:01 PM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Something tells me that if he was a Texan, most of you would be some of the biggest Bush homers of all time. Go talk to Sean Payton and ask him if Bush is worth a damn.

Anyone who thinks Bush isn't a good football player, is just a hater. The guy has flaws and you may feel he was taken too early for what he has brought to the table, but to act like Slaton is any better than Bush or that because Slaton was picked later than Bush, that makes him a better player is just ridiculous.

Ok, so Terrell Davis is the greatest RB of all time because he wasn't given a sniff in the draft coming out of Georgia. Great logic.

I love Slaton, I just hope we all don't get too giddy with him and act like the RB situation is now all of a sudden fixed. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have our 'lightning' now get us our 'thunder'....or some more damn 'lightning'. We need to learn from the Domanick Davis situation.

It's not hate. It's after all we went through publicly with the Mario thing, most of us feel that we got our money's worth, especially at a position which is more likely to produce longevity (as already being demonstrated). Reggie Bush will likely be an exciting player while he is around. But there are many similarly exciting players around with much less of a drag on the cap.

TheRealJoker
10-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Reggie Bush is a nice player to have but not an absolute MUST HAVE franchise cornerstone like you want when you draft top 5.

I put Reggie in the same category as guys like Roscoe Parrish and Devin Hester. Parrish is a dynamic slot receiver/return man and Hester is a real life Forrest Gump. All three players are dynamic but none of them you build a franchise around.

Plus all the Reggie hype has taken away from the Maurice Jones-Drew hype as a versatile player. I would take MJD over Reggie (not just as a RB, total package football player) as would most people not blinded by Reggie's big muscles and subway commercials.

Not saying Reggie is a bad player, the Texans would be a better team with Reggie Bush. But he's not worth the price tag that comes with being a # 2 pick imo.

Second Honeymoon
10-21-2008, 05:18 PM
It's not hate. It's after all we went through publicly with the Mario thing, most of us feel that we got our money's worth, especially at a position which is more likely to produce longevity (as already being demonstrated). Reggie Bush will likely be an exciting player while he is around. But there are many similarly exciting players around with much less of a drag on the cap.

i agree we are getting our money's worth with Slaton but does that diminish Bush as a football player? The jury is still out on the Mario v Bush thing anyway. Mario is a great player but if you look at winning football games, Bush has probably won just as many games as Mario has. I am glad we took Mario over Bush because we needed something to help our pass rush but I am not going to get bent out of shape if someone thinks we screwed up passing on Bush. Bush could have really helped our football team. His versatility is unprecedented when you look at the numbers. New Orleans throws the ball around and look at Deuce, he isn't doing much either. It's an offense that is not predicated on running the ball between the tackles in a traditional sense.

I don't think our RB situation is fixed. We can't think of it as being fixed. Steve will not last as a featured back getting 20-30 carries every game. He would be best getting 15-20 and sharing time with another quality running back, which we currently lack. Let's learn from the Domanick Davis failure and preserve Slaton's career, team value, and productivity. Just sayin'.

NBT
10-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Reggie Bush is a nice player to have but not an absolute MUST HAVE franchise cornerstone like you want when you draft top 5.

I put Reggie in the same category as guys like Roscoe Parrish and Devin Hester. Parrish is a dynamic slot receiver/return man and Hester is a real life Forrest Gump. All three players are dynamic but none of them you build a franchise around.

Plus all the Reggie hype has taken away from the Maurice Jones-Drew hype as a versatile player. I would take MJD over Reggie (not just as a RB, total package football player) as would most people not blinded by Reggie's big muscles and subway commercials.

Not saying Reggie is a bad player, the Texans would be a better team with Reggie Bush. But he's not worth the price tag that comes with being a # 2 pick imo.


NO we wouldn't because we wouldn't have Mario. No way no how. Reggie would rather run out of bounds than take a hit. He couldn't run between the tackle if his life depended on it.

Fox
10-21-2008, 05:55 PM
I agree with Joker. Bush is versatile and he opens a lot of doors for an offense, but he's a luxury not a necessity IMO. I'd like to have Devin Hester on the team but I wouldn't take him, or pay him, with a top 5 pick.

Slaton on the other hand has so far been very solid as a running back. He isn't lacking as a receiver, but he isn't nearly the receiver Bush is either.

ATXtexanfan
10-21-2008, 05:59 PM
when will we let bush and vy go? old news just like carr.

dc_txtech
10-21-2008, 06:02 PM
when will we let bush and vy go?

People have been saying that since May of '06. It's not gunna end any time soon so get used to it. Or just don't click on threads that have their names in the title.

dtran04
10-21-2008, 06:19 PM
People do it because there are still people in Houston that hate Mario. I guess its a defensive mechanism for the first year where all these people would start threads every week about RB this, VY that.

Funny thing is, watch the Saints magically find an awesome running game once Bush is out.

nunusguy
10-21-2008, 07:30 PM
Slaton on the other hand has so far been very solid as a running back. He isn't lacking as a receiver, but he isn't nearly the receiver Bush is either.

Nor is Bush it would seem the running back that Slaton is ?

CloakNNNdagger
10-21-2008, 07:34 PM
People do it because there are still people in Houston that hate Mario. I guess its a defensive mechanism for the first year where all these people would start threads every week about RB this, VY that.

Funny thing is, watch the Saints magically find an awesome running game once Bush is out.

Sometimes the "decoy" can get in the way of the development/production of the "real thing."

TheRealJoker
10-21-2008, 07:35 PM
NO we wouldn't because we wouldn't have Mario. No way no how. Reggie would rather run out of bounds than take a hit. He couldn't run between the tackle if his life depended on it.

Not saying if we took Reggie over Mario we'd be a better team. Saying if we had both of them we would be better than just one or the other. I'm one of the bigger Mario supporters around so dont take it that way.

Blake
10-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Why do we have to keep doing this? Reggie Bush is Reggie Bush and Steve Slaton is Steve Slaton. We dont need side by side comparisons to Reggie Bush for the rest of his career. Give it a rest!

Hooston Texan
10-21-2008, 07:40 PM
Reggie is a great punt-returner and a nice receiving option out of the backfield. Is that worth the second--or, more pertinently, the top overall--pick?

We found a dangerous--albeit erratic--punt returner in the third round a year later. We found an-already-more-productive RB in the third round a year after that. We found a very nice kickoff returner off the street. Oh, and we got Mario, too.

After having to sit through six months of Reggie/VY hype before that draft and then the moronic cacklings of know-nothings for the next 18 months about how stupid we were for taking Mario, forgive us for feeling a little self-congratulatory that the two players we we didn't draft now look like a special-teamer/third-down back and a complete head case who probably won't hack it as an NFL QB anytime soon.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 07:43 PM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Reggie TDs: 2 Rush, 3 Receiving, 3 Punt Return
Slaton TDs: 4 Rush, 1 Receiving

Without the special teams plays, Reggie has the same number of TDs as Slaton. As has been stated in the thread title, Steve is also averaging 1.4 yards more per rush than Bush. He isn't worth the price tag or his draft spot.

P.S. - Slaton is too valuable to be returning punts. Notice that Bush got injured on a special teams play this weekend and will miss 4+ weeks.

GuerillaBlack
10-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Reggie TDs: 3 Rush, 2 Receiving, 3 Punt Return
Slaton TDs: 4 Rush, 1 Receiving

Without the special teams plays, Reggie has the same number of TDs as Slaton. As has been stated in the thread title, Steve is also averaging 1.4 yards more per rush than Bush. He isn't worth the price tag or his draft spot.

P.S. - Slaton is too valuable to be returning punts. Notice that Bush got injured on a special teams play this weekend and will miss 4+ weeks.

And it's amazing that in his first season, Slaton already has more games over 100 rushing yards and has rushed for more than 20+ yards than Bush has in his three year career.

For the people that say the Texans aren't fixed at the RB position, they're wrong. We are. I mean, maybe we can get a power-Marion Barber type back to go along with Slaton (because I really don't trust Green's health), but that's all we need. We have our feature back in my eyes.

Runner
10-21-2008, 08:12 PM
It's mainly just hate because of the draft process, Mario bashing by the media, and that nasty little commercial he made. Houston fans have hurt feelings, and they are going to hit back!

They have to say he's bad "running back" to cover for the fact he's a very good football player. If the Texans had a dynamic player like that this board would be talking non-stop about "redefining the position" or other such nonsense. A critical observer needs to watch how the Saints offense plays off him to improve everyone's performance, not just look at stats to prop up their bias.


I think an outside observer could summarize the feelings in two words:

Inferiority complex.


It's rather embarrassing, actually.

hradhak
10-21-2008, 08:21 PM
I think that our #1 RB spot is taken at least for now. I think the problem with players like DD and Slaton is that they are elusive but they're NFL careers are cut short because of their size. Not saying that's always the case, but it seems to happen. With that being said, not having someone to bring the "thunder" with Davis, we ran him into the ground pretty fast. We need a #2 to take the carries especially late in the game when we're taking the air out of the ball and keep Slaton healthy for a long time.

Fox
10-21-2008, 08:22 PM
Nor is Bush it would seem the running back that Slaton is ?

Absolutely. Slaton has shown more ability as a RB in 6 games than Bush has his entire professional career. Just pointing out that while people here like to compare them because they have similar body types and "3rd down back" labels, they each have a skill set quite unique from one another. Slaton seems more comfortable making big plays out of the back field, while Bush does his damage with his YAC.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 08:40 PM
It's mainly just hate because of the draft process, Mario bashing by the media, and that nasty little commercial he made. Houston fans have hurt feelings, and they are going to hit back!

They have to say he's bad "running back" to cover for the fact he's a very good football player. If the Texans had a dynamic player like that this board would be talking non-stop about "redefining the position" or other such nonsense. A critical observer needs to watch how the Saints offense plays off him to improve everyone's performance, not just look at stats to prop up their bias.


I think an outside observer could summarize the feelings in two words:

Inferiority complex.


It's rather embarrassing, actually.

A critical observer would say that Drew Brees is one hell of a QB, and success begins with him. If it weren't for that man, the Saints would'nt have done anything spectacular whatsoever.

No one denies that Bush is a versatile player. We are simply pointing out the obvious... he hasn't lived up to his hype. I would rather have Mario and Slaton.

Texans_Chick
10-21-2008, 08:57 PM
It's mainly just hate because of the draft process, Mario bashing by the media, and that nasty little commercial he made. Houston fans have hurt feelings, and they are going to hit back!

They have to say he's bad "running back" to cover for the fact he's a very good football player. If the Texans had a dynamic player like that this board would be talking non-stop about "redefining the position" or other such nonsense. A critical observer needs to watch how the Saints offense plays off him to improve everyone's performance, not just look at stats to prop up their bias.


I think an outside observer could summarize the feelings in two words:

Inferiority complex.


It's rather embarrassing, actually.

The hate part is embarrassing.

But if we are going to be looking back at various busts the Texans have had over the years, it is also worth looking at good decisions too.

Williams over Bush showed a lot of stones.

That Slaton as a third round pick rookie is outperforming Bush is something worth mentioning. And if some people want to celebrate it, I'm not going to mind.

leebigeztx
10-21-2008, 09:11 PM
Bush has turned into a good returner and has always been a good receiver out of the backfield. Slaton has been very good as a rb and is pretty good out the backfield too.I'm happy to have slaton and next move would be in the offseason to offer a 4th for michael bush as a 17 carry guy. I think the entire nfl is moving to dual back system. Looking at how LT is slowed from the yrs of high touches and slowed by a injury. Looking at the Johnson, Lewis, and these other high touch backs, factoring the money u have to pay these gguys, its really smart money to have 2 or even 3. I think Bush would be great in this offense splitting carriess with slaton.

Runner
10-21-2008, 09:19 PM
The hate part is embarrassing.

But if we are going to be looking back at various busts the Texans have had over the years, it is also worth looking at good decisions too.

Williams over Bush showed a lot of stones.

That Slaton as a third round pick rookie is outperforming Bush is something worth mentioning. And if some people want to celebrate it, I'm not going to mind.

I guess I don't see it as a zero sum game. For Mario to be good, everyone else doesn't have to be bad. I'm not a USC fan, I'm not a Saints fan, but I find the Saints enjoyable to watch when Bush is on the field. He does change the dynamic of that offense, making Brees and his no-name receivers far more effective. This doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but it is fun to watch.

I don't know why it has become a Bush/Slaton thing, but I don't think Slaton, as great as he is to Texans fans, would do the same thing for the Saints in that offense. I also don't think Bush would flourish as a running back only in Kubiak's one cut and go system. They are different backs for different teams.

"The Texans good, other players bad" attitude is what wears me down. The "Slaton has a higher average than Bush so Bush sucks" statement is ludicrous on a number of levels. If stats are the end all, look at the fact that Bush scores more points, which actually helps win games directly. Stats aren't the end all anyway.

Who cares how much money Bush makes. The Texans and every other team have a lot of highly overpaid players too. At least Bush is a vital cog in their offense.

The one thing that remains certain is many, many Texans fans will never consider that Bush fuels the Saints potent attack. Not because it might not be true, but because their feelings are hurt.

Texecutioner
10-21-2008, 09:30 PM
I guess I don't see it as a zero sum game. For Mario to be good, everyone else doesn't have to be bad. I'm not a USC fan, I'm not a Saints fan, but I find the Saints enjoyable to watch when Bush is on the field. He does change the dynamic of that offense, making Brees and his no-name receivers far more effective. This doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but it is fun to watch.

I don't know why it has become a Bush/Slaton thing, but I don't think Slaton, as great as he is to Texans fans, would do the same thing for the Saints in that offense. I also don't think Bush would flourish as a running back only in Kubiak's one cut and go system. They are different backs for different teams.

"The Texans good, other players bad" attitude is what wears me down. The "Slaton has a higher average than Bush so Bush sucks" is ludicrous on a number of levels. If stats are the end all, look at the fact that Bush scores more points, which actually helps win games directly. Stats aren't the end all anyway.

Who cares how much money Bush makes. The Texans and every other team have a lot of highly overpaid players too. At least Bush is a vital cog in their offense.

The one thing that remains certain is many, many Texans fans will never consider, that Bush fuels the Saints potent attack. Not because it might not be true, but because their feelings are hurt.

I think that you're absolutely right. It seems like on this board sometimes their can't even be a discussion about Reggie Bush without Mario Williams name being mentioned or Steve Slaton's either.

Bush looked like a bust last year. This year he has completely changed that though. He has been the kind of play maker that people thought he could be (That is those people that had realistic expectations). A lot of posters in here act as if Bush is some chump kind of player, and they want to bash him just because of the slack we took for not drafting him. Well that wasn't his fault, so I think it is silly to bash him without a valid reason. He has been a great player this year.

All that being said though, I'm fine with Slaton. Mario was the right pick though. You can find RB's every single year and you have to have a good O line any way. A player like Mario only comes every 4 or 5 drafts. MARIO was easily the right pick.

Runner
10-21-2008, 09:37 PM
All that being said though, I'm fine with Slaton. Mario was the right pick though.


I guess I should have been clear earlier so no one gets the wrong impression. Check the archives - I was a draft Mario guy.

Texecutioner
10-21-2008, 09:40 PM
I guess I should have been clear earlier so no one gets the wrong impression. Check the archives - I was a draft Mario guy.

I haven't gotten the wrong impression at all. I typically enjoy reading your posts and think that they are usually pretty accurate and spot on.

I'll admit that I've eaten all the crow that my stomach could take, because I was sssoooooooo against the Mario pick. Thank god that I was wrong, and we have possibly the best DE in the league now. :fans:

GuerillaBlack
10-21-2008, 09:46 PM
I haven't gotten the wrong impression at all. I typically enjoy reading your posts and think that they are usually pretty accurate and spot on.

I'll admit that I've eaten all the crow that my stomach could take, because I was sssoooooooo against the Mario pick. Thank god that I was wrong, and we have possibly the best DE in the league now. :fans:

Hell, I was so football/draft illiterate during the 2006 draft, that I wanted AJ Hawk with the first pick.

*ducks and hides*

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 09:49 PM
I guess I don't see it as a zero sum game. For Mario to be good, everyone else doesn't have to be bad. I'm not a USC fan, I'm not a Saints fan, but I find the Saints enjoyable to watch when Bush is on the field. He does change the dynamic of that offense, making Brees and his no-name receivers far more effective. This doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but it is fun to watch.

I don't know why it has become a Bush/Slaton thing, but I don't think Slaton, as great as he is to Texans fans, would do the same thing for the Saints in that offense. I also don't think Bush would flourish as a running back only in Kubiak's one cut and go system. They are different backs for different teams.

"The Texans good, other players bad" attitude is what wears me down. The "Slaton has a higher average than Bush so Bush sucks" is ludicrous on a number of levels. If stats are the end all, look at the fact that Bush scores more points, which actually helps win games directly. Stats aren't the end all anyway.

Who cares how much money Bush makes. The Texans and every other team have a lot of highly overpaid players too. At least Bush is a vital cog in their offense.

The one thing that remains certain is many, many Texans fans will never consider, that Bush fuels the Saints potent attack. Not because it might not be true, but because their feelings are hurt.

This is silly (and I wish you would have responded to my post)...

Who cares if other players on other teams are overpaid? We aren't talking about them, we are talking about Reggie Bush versus Steve Slaton. If you don't like the comparison, that's fine... but they ARE both RBs at the end of the day, and thus they are allowed to be compared. They are both considered the "Lightning" of their respective teams, and have similar attributes.

To be honest, if there were no salary cap... I wouldn't give a crap what any player made. But this is the NFL, not the MLB, and overpaid players hit the cap hard.

I agree with you about stats to an extent. For RBs, though, there is one stat that really matters, and that is Yards Per Attempt. It stands to reason that a RB with a high YPA is the more "productive" back, by definition.

Runner
10-21-2008, 10:12 PM
For RBs, though, there is one stat that really matters, and that is Yards Per Attempt. It stands to reason that a RB with a high YPA is the more "productive" back, by definition.

The best thing about that stat is that it supports your argument. Stats can be used any number of ways, and stats don't tell the whole story. Let's follow this to its conclusion then.

"It stands to reason" that if Slaton opens the game with a 30 yard run, they should then bench him the rest of the game so his productivity doesn't go down with subsequent carries. A ten yard run would lower his productivity from 30 ypc to 20 ypc. A 33% drop in productivity, by definition. That sounds bogus to me, but ypc is the gold standard. :rolleyes:

Like I said, Bush's impact on his team is deeper than the stat sheet* and some people refuse to consider this, so I'll concede the main facts here. Slaton has higher yards per carry and Reggie gets paid a lot.



*People also do a disservice to Slaton's impact on his offense by focusing on stats. Without his running, Dre and Daniels aren't as free to get open. I wouldn't care if teams dropped Slaton to 3.8 ypc if they caught enough extra passes to make up for it. Of course, Slaton would suck then. Hmmm...that sounds bogus to me too.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 10:31 PM
The best thing about that stat is that it supports your argument. Stats can be used any number of ways, and stats don't tell the whole story. Let's follow this to its conclusion then.

"It stands to reason" that if Slaton opens the game with a 30 yard run, they should then bench him the rest of the game so his productivity doesn't go down with subsequent carries. A ten yard run would lower his productivity from 30 ypc to 20ypc. A 33% drop in productivity, by definition. Hmmm - that sounds bogus to me too.

Like I said, Bush's impact on his team is deeper than the stat sheet* and some people refuse to consider this, so I'll conced the main facts here. Slaton has higher yards per carry and Reggie gets paid a lot.



*People also do a disservice to Slaton's impact on his offense by focusing on stats. Without his running, Dre and Daniels aren't as free to get open. I wouldn't care if teams dropped Slaton to 3.8 ypc if they caught enough extra passes to make up for it. Of course, Slaton would suck then. That sounds bogus to me too.

According to NFL.com, Slaton has 89 rushing attempts compared to Reggie's 87. They are pretty even on that, so that strengthens my use of the YPA stat since there is no skew based on attempts.

Slaton has 5 20+ yard runs, 2 of which were 40+ yarders. Bush has 3 20+ yarders and no 40+ ones. Removing the big runs from both players would reduce their YPA, but Slaton would still have a higher average (I can do that math if you want, or you could just trust me).

What I am saying here is that Slaton does more with his attempts than Reggie. He has also made more big plays. Also, Bush has fumbled 2 times compared to Slaton's 0 fumbles.

It's no doubt that Reggie has some intangibles that Slaton does not, but the question is.... is it worth the price?

leebigeztx
10-21-2008, 10:33 PM
The best thing about that stat is that it supports your argument. Stats can be used any number of ways, and stats don't tell the whole story. Let's follow this to its conclusion then.

"It stands to reason" that if Slaton opens the game with a 30 yard run, they should then bench him the rest of the game so his productivity doesn't go down with subsequent carries. A ten yard run would lower his productivity from 30 ypc to 15 ypc. A 50% drop in productivity, by definition. Hmmm - that sounds bogus to me too.

Like I said, Bush's impact on his team is deeper than the stat sheet* and some people refuse to consider this, so I'll conced the main facts here. Slaton has higher yards per carry and Reggie gets paid a lot.



*People also do a disservice to Slaton's impact on his offense by focusing on stats. Without his running, Dre and Daniels aren't as free to get open. I wouldn't care if teams dropped Slaton to 3.8 ypc if they caught enough extra passes to make up for it. Of course, Slaton would suck then. That sounds bogus to me too.

I have to disagree about bush impact being deeper than stats show. If anything, I think people overblow his importance to the offense. Deuce was a beast before the injuries and Brees was a probowler. Colston was on pace to be the 1st wr I histor to have 80 catches and 1100 yds in his 1st 3 season in the history of te nfl. I thknk when teams see bush, the think wr without a viable rb. This tips ur hand as a offense. What I think happens now is the offense is streamlined with deuce or pierre. If they want 3 wr, they have guys that will get 14-15 ypc vs 8 ypc. not only that, the threat of the running game can displace a safety in the box which gives shockey, colston, henderson, patton and guys like that 1 on 1 without safety help. U ask any qb and receiver what is the easiest coverage and matchups, and they'll always say single high. Well, the running game gets cranked up, and that's the look brees is seeing pre snap. With Bush is, allu see is another corner on the field. Every qb wil tell u they like to have lbs on the field in passing downs vs cb's

Runner
10-21-2008, 10:42 PM
It's no doubt that Reggie has some intangibles that Slaton does not, but the question is.... is it worth the price?

Nobody is "worth" that price. I certainly didn't think Mario was "worth" his when he attributed the slow start to his career to being more focused on the next car he would buy then on football.

If it's all about the money and parsing who is worth what, I bet they could find a better overall line for the Texans using Mario's money on one somewhat less effective defensive end and two better tackles and one better end on the other side.

The rookie money is what it is. It's badly skewed but the owners keep ponying up.

I'm happy with Mario despite his salary and despite the fact I think Reggie Bush doesn't suck.

Runner
10-21-2008, 10:44 PM
I have to disagree about bush impact being deeper than stats show. If anything, I think people overblow his importance to the offense. Deuce was a beast before the injuries and Brees was a probowler. Colston was on pace to be the 1st wr I histor to have 80 catches and 1100 yds in his 1st 3 season in the history of te nfl. I thknk when teams see bush, the think wr without a viable rb. This tips ur hand as a offense. What I think happens now is the offense is streamlined with deuce or pierre. If they want 3 wr, they have guys that will get 14-15 ypc vs 8 ypc. not only that, the threat of the running game can displace a safety in the box which gives shockey, colston, henderson, patton and guys like that 1 on 1 without safety help. U ask any qb and receiver what is the easiest coverage and matchups, and they'll always say single high. Well, the running game gets cranked up, and that's the look brees is seeing pre snap. With Bush is, allu see is another corner on the field. Every qb wil tell u they like to have lbs on the field in passing downs vs cb's

That is certainly one way to look at it, although I come to a different conclusion. We'll see what happens the next few games without Reggie.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 10:51 PM
Nobody is "worth" that price. I certainly didn't think Mario was "worth" his when he attributed the slow start to his career to being more focused on the next car he would buy then on football.

If it's all about the money and parsing who is worth what, I bet they could find a better overall line for the Texans using Mario's money on one somewhat less effective defensive end and two better tackles and one better end on the other side.

The rookie money is what it is. It's badly skewed but the owners keep ponying up.

I'm happy with Mario despite his salary and despite the fact I think Reggie Bush doesn't suck.

Well we both agree on the fact that rookie salaries are ridiculous.

I suppose I should just reiterate that my position is not as much to devalue Reggie as it is to promote Slaton. I am pretty much saying "Can you believe that we got this guy? He is outperforming many NFL starters in his rookie season!!" This thread was about comparing him to Reggie, so that's why I have been doing that.

Bush is a versatile player and he is fun to watch. That said, I prefer things the way they are right now. Yea, I would probably be wearing a Bush jersey if we had drafted him... but what does that matter? That didn't happen. We've got Mario and Slaton, and that's fine with me.

Runner
10-21-2008, 11:05 PM
Slaton has 5 20+ yard runs, 2 of which were 40+ yarders. Bush has 3 20+ yarders and no 40+ ones. Removing the big runs from both players would reduce their YPA, but Slaton would still have a higher average (I can do that math if you want, or you could just trust me).


Thanks for the offer, but I did a rough estimate in my head as I was reading. Rounding down for simplicity, I used three twenty yarders and two 40 yarders for Slaton and three twenty yarders for Bush. Of course to simplify I just divided each new total by 80 and 90* and interpolated the results to roughly 85 carries. With the errors inherent in such gross rounding I came up with Slaton still ahead by just over .5 ypc.

You could check me on a spreadsheet if you like.



*OK, I admit it. I divided by 8 and 9 and then moved the decimal point.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 11:15 PM
Thanks for the offer, but I did a rough estimate in my head as I was reading. Rounding down for simplicity, I used three twenty yarders and two 40 yarders for Slaton and three twenty yarders for Bush. Of course to simplify I just divided each new total by 80 and 90* and interpolated the results to roughly 85 carries. With the errors inherent in such gross rounding I came up with Slaton still ahead by just over .5 ypc.

You could check me on a spreadsheet if you like.



*OK, I admit it. I divided by 8 and 9 and then moved the decimal point.

Here's a simple way to do it. They both had 3 20+ yarders that didn't reach 40 yards, but Slaton did surpass 40 on two other runs. So lets remove those two big runs and see what happens to his stats....

Reggie: 294 Yards, 87 Attempts, 3.4 YPA
Slaton: 332 Yards, 87 Attempts, 3.8 YPA

So basically, if you rule out Slatons 41 and 50 yard runs, he is still more productive by .4 YPA (which isn't much). You can look at this one of two ways...

1) Slaton is more of a home-run hitter than Bush, but they are otherwise pretty similar
2) Slaton is, on average, more productive

P.S. - This is, of course, only in reference to running plays

Runner
10-21-2008, 11:24 PM
Here's a simple way to do it. They both had 3 20+ yarders that didn't reach 40 yards, but Slaton did surpass 40 on two other runs. So lets remove those two big runs and see what happens to his stats....

Reggie: 294 Yards, 87 Attempts, 3.4 YPA
Slaton: 332 Yards, 87 Attempts, 3.8 YPA

So basically, if you rule out Slatons 41 and 50 yard runs, he is still more productive by .4 YPA (which isn't much). You can look at this one of two ways...

1) Slaton is more of a home-run hitter than Bush, but they are otherwise pretty similar
2) Slaton is, on average, more productive

P.S. - This is, of course, only in reference to running plays

Totaling and subtracting the long runs was the easiest part, so I didn't use that particular shortcut. I was just irritated with myself for not being able to close my eyes and picture a simple ratio that would pop an approximation out without all the tedious arithmetic.

I must be slipping.

TexansLucky13
10-21-2008, 11:26 PM
I must be slipping.

If you slip pushing that rock up the hill, it may be the last we ever hear from you. Don't do it!

:tease:

Carr Bombed
10-22-2008, 12:01 AM
Screw Bush, Houston hasn't had a problem throwing the rock around or getting plays in the passing game..........they had a problem running the ball or did before Slaton got here. Reggie Bush doesn't fix that problem at all.

I'll take the back that plays like a back and can pick up almost 5 yards a pop.

Anyways Bush is also starting to show some durability issues with his knees........this is the second year in a row that he's now going to miss time with a knee injury. Been there done that and that doesn't sound good at all for a RB.....especially one that relies solely on his cutting ability and speed.

Vinnie
10-22-2008, 01:24 AM
Totaling and subtracting the long runs was the easiest part, so I didn't use that particular shortcut. I was just irritated with myself for not being able to close my eyes and picture a simple ratio that would pop an approximation out without all the tedious arithmetic.

I must be slipping.

Proof:

reggie=slaton
reggie$>slaton$
therefore
slaton>reggie

dream_team
10-22-2008, 01:26 AM
To be honest... I think if Houston picked Reggie, it would be a whole different story. Reggie would arguably be the best RB in the league right now. I think the zone blocking scheme, and a good full back like Leach, is a perfect fit for a player like Bush.

The Saints have an offense designed for a back like Mcallister... it's like they threw Bush into that role and would assume he'd do better. They run him in a single back set and expect him to run straight up the gut? Come on, way to waste his strengths.

Everyone also talks about what a great receiver he is... but if you watch the games, all of his receptions are either swing passes or 5 yard dump offs. He then has to use his skill to make people miss and generate his yards on his own. If the Saints had Bush run a real route out of the backfield, he'd be covered by a line backer, talk about a mis-match. I have no idea why the Saints don't have him run out of the backfield and run a fly down the sidelines (kind of like the play Slaton had against JAX for a 30 yard TD). They had Bush do this play alot at USC, not sure why NO doesn't add it to their playbook?

Corrosion
10-22-2008, 01:41 AM
Bush plays for some other team .... I think they are called the Aints.

He's also hurt.

I like him better sittin on the Aints bench bringing in that $54 Million.

Malloy
10-22-2008, 03:01 AM
It's mainly just hate because of the draft process, Mario bashing by the media, and that nasty little commercial he made. Houston fans have hurt feelings, and they are going to hit back!

I think an outside observer could summarize the feelings in two words:

Inferiority complex.


It's rather embarrassing, actually.


Longtime outside observer; it sometimes seem as if the people of Houston have an unusual aching peepee.

nunusguy
10-22-2008, 07:06 AM
My problems with Bush "for some time now" have had nothing to do with the 2006 Draft and all of the negative hype we took here for passing over him back then because I'm now very secure in my knowledge we got the superior player, and the better value in Mario. I'm also secure enough about our decision to admit we may not have gotten the Drafts best player, who would now appear to be Jay Cutler. Arms like that just don't come along very often, but as we all know other issues related to the QB position here in Houston prevented us from selecting a player at that position.
My problems with Bush have more to do with the endless media-hype machine, led shamelessly by ESPNs Tony Kornheiser, who loudly promote Bush at every opportunity. On the ESPN MNF game a few weeks ago involving the Saints, Kornheiser said Bush would be the "star of stars" in the NFL if only he could play as he did USC. What kind of a remark is that ? It could be said about scores of players, especially many college Heisman winners, who were disappointments in the NFL.
And I've always been resentful of the obviously preferential treatment USC in general and Bush in particular got from the media and the medias apparent infleunce on NCAA decisions about that school and its players vs others, especially Big 12 schools.

BigBull17
10-22-2008, 07:18 AM
Reggie is near the lead in TDs. The guy is loved by his fans and keeps his nose clean. Why all the hate? Oh yeah, its a Houston and everyone hates us thing.

Something tells me that if he was a Texan, most of you would be some of the biggest Bush homers of all time. Go talk to Sean Payton and ask him if Bush is worth a damn.

Anyone who thinks Bush isn't a good football player, is just a hater. The guy has flaws and you may feel he was taken too early for what he has brought to the table, but to act like Slaton is any better than Bush or that because Slaton was picked later than Bush, that makes him a better player is just ridiculous.

Ok, so Terrell Davis is the greatest RB of all time because he wasn't given a sniff in the draft coming out of Georgia. Great logic.

I love Slaton, I just hope we all don't get too giddy with him and act like the RB situation is now all of a sudden fixed. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have our 'lightning' now get us our 'thunder'....or some more damn 'lightning'. We need to learn from the Domanick Davis situation.

THere is alot of hate because we, Texans and fans, were driven into the ground and proclaimed the stupiidest team in the world for passing on him. The media made him a goat in this city, and he didnt help with his Madden comercial. He will be hated around here for a long time, just like the "Savior" VY. Eff em both and go Mario.