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hradhak
10-20-2008, 02:09 PM
Let me preface this statement by saying that I think Schaub is our long term solution at QB. I think he manages the offense better than any QB we've had and he makes great plays.

I just watched the Detroit game again and saw the play where Schaub coughs up the ball near then end of the 2nd half. The defender's hand is on Schaub's back well before the ball pops out. I'm not sure why Schaub isn't covering up the football. It seems to me that in games against teams where turnovers are going to matter more, Schaub needs to be a lot more careful especially with his new penchant for running the ball when nothing's available down the field.

Norg
10-20-2008, 03:08 PM
iam not sold of Matt yet

he has costed us many turnovers

we are the highest in the league in TO

Trail.Blazr
10-20-2008, 03:26 PM
I am not sold on him either. I don't know how fairly you can assess him though except with some time. But, if you compare his QB Rating both as a texan and for his career, you'll find that he's statistically no better than Sage. I find that disturbing considering the hype given to him when he left Atlanta.

To be fair.. would a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady fair any better at the helm? I want to believe they would. So that said..

How long does Matt have the luxury of being the "long term solution"?

Or is that not a fair question?

Texan_Bill
10-20-2008, 03:32 PM
iam not sold of Matt yet

he has costed us many turnovers

we are the highest in the league in TO

Highest turnover ratio, not the most turnovers.

Norg
10-20-2008, 03:34 PM
Iam just saying there are alot of better Qb around the League then Matt/Sage

Brett Farve

BIlls QB

ROthenburger

Mc Nabb

I dare even say Kyle Orton Guss Furote and the Cards QB

HOU-TEX
10-20-2008, 03:37 PM
Iam just saying there are alot of better Qb around the League then Matt/Sage

Brett Farve

BIlls QB

ROthenburger

Mc Nabb

I dare even say Kyle Orton Guss Furote and the Cards QB

You ok?

Silver Oak
10-20-2008, 03:43 PM
Here's a link to NFL.com and stats for all qb's through yesterdays action.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2008&seasonType=REG

Matt has the same number of int's as Drew Brees. I have $10 that says no one on the Saints board is questioning whther Brees should be their qb or not.

Man!!! And we won the freaking game yesterday!

Texan_Bill
10-20-2008, 03:44 PM
Iam just saying there are alot of better Qb around the League then Matt/Sage

Brett Farve

BIlls QB

ROthenburger

Mc Nabb

I dare even say Kyle Orton Guss Furote and the Cards QB

Orton and Gus Frerotte are a huge reach. Especially Frerotte who has 80+ NFL starts in his career. Matt and Sage have 26 starts --- combined... As far as the others you mentioned, I'm pretty sure they were all under contract and not available (except Trent Edwards, who was drafted in 2007)

TEXANS84
10-20-2008, 03:45 PM
That play happened right in front of me/bullpen. Schaub was just careless with the ball, as he was running to possibly throw the ball after the pocket broke down, and then just never fully tucked the ball in. It was his mistake, all it took was a good hit from behind to pop that ball out.

Cjeremy635
10-20-2008, 03:47 PM
Here's a link to NFL.com and stats for all qb's through yesterdays action.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2008&seasonType=REG

Matt has the same number of int's as Drew Brees. I have $10 that says no one on the Saints board is questioning whther Brees should be their qb or not.

Man!!! And we won the freaking game yesterday!

Yeah, but Brees has 1,000 more yards passing and 5 more TDs. I'm not knocking our QB, I'm glad we won yesterday. I'm just filling in the blanks in the comparison you made.

Silver Oak
10-20-2008, 03:56 PM
Yeah, but Brees has 1,000 more yards passing and 5 more TDs. I'm not knocking our QB, I'm glad we won yesterday. I'm just filling in the blanks in the comparison you made.


I know, but Brees also has been sacked less too. Better line? Who knows, my point was that the qb turnover focus is time not well spent.

I don't think Schaub will be another Brady, but I do think he is a qb better than Kerry Collins, and look what surrounding a good team around him has done.

Cjeremy635
10-20-2008, 04:01 PM
I know, but Brees also has been sacked less too. Better line? Who knows, my point was that the qb turnover focus is time not well spent.

I don't think Schaub will be another Brady, but I do think he is a qb better than Kerry Collins, and look what surrounding a good team around him has done.

I see what you're saying. I think he has potential, but I also think a lot of people have potential. I really think that there's a fine line between the elites in this league and the busts. I think that it all boils down to what you make of your time on the field and the opportunities you are given. Look at Brady for instance. Wasn't the guy a 5th rounder or something? He made the most of his opprtunity on the field and didn't look back. I honestly can't say that about Shaub at this point. Am I ready to bench the guy or fire him? No way, but I need to see some confidence and better decision making to bring back the warm and fuzzy feeling again. :)

MeLoveTexans
10-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Iam just saying there are alot of better Qb around the League then Matt/Sage

Brett Farve

BIlls QB

ROthenburger

Mc Nabb

I dare even say Kyle Orton Guss Furote and the Cards QB


do those Rothenburgers come with cheese? Im starving

-Mark Mangino

Polo
10-20-2008, 04:08 PM
If Schaub keeps turning the ball over we won't be a very good team...

Kudos on being able to put up points on the last ranked detroit defense...

I wanna see Matt perform well against good defenses and then I'll be sold on him...

utahmark
10-20-2008, 04:16 PM
If Schaub keeps turning the ball over we won't be a very good team...

Kudos on being able to put up points on the last ranked detroit defense...

I wanna see Matt perform well against good defenses and then I'll be sold on him...

well 3 in a row isnt bad. jacs, miami and detroit. if your just waiting to seem him have a bad day against a top 5 defense then im sure you will see him struggle when we play one of those type defenses. of course all qb's struggle against to 5 defenses thats why they are top 5 defenses.

Hooston Texan
10-20-2008, 04:52 PM
Schaub has made mistakes with the ball, but he has had the offense humming the last three games he's played. He's not getting his yards through dink and dunk--he is attacking the intermediate zones with his throws. I think what he has shown us so far is certainly enough to warrant him getting more time to iron out his mistakes.

It is always dangerous to play the "if you throw out _____", but Schaub's last three games have been outstanding. The Jags held Jay Cutler in check and the Dolphins stoned Philip Rivers, but Schaub torched them both. There is no argument in support of the Lions' defense, but no quarterback has put up better numbers over that span than Matt.

Texans_Chick
10-20-2008, 05:05 PM
Interesting. Matt Schaub has now completed 16 starts as a Texan. If you combine his last year stats with this year, this is what you get.

Completed 311 passes out of 472

65.7 percent of his passes

3384 yards

Average 7.5 yards a pass

16 TDs to 16 INTs.

25 sacks

85.4 QB rating


Lots of confounding factors to look at. Lack of a running game last year. Also getting his clock cleaned a few times so that he couldn't finish games, and playing when he probably should have been out. Redo of the offensive line and missing Andre Johnson for a part of last year and trying to get back into sync this year.

Needs to reduce the INTs.

Thorn
10-20-2008, 05:10 PM
We've got very few "stars" on this team right now, like AJ, Mario, and Ryans. Schaub is not one of them. He is better than about half of the starting QBs in the NFL, so it's not like he's a dud or anything, he's just not a top flight QB yet.

hradhak
10-20-2008, 05:19 PM
I think the only way Schaub is really going to play up to his potential is to stop the mistakes he's been making. It may be unfair to say so, but a lot of the responsibility for this team lies with him. The only way that Houston breaks out of the cycle of thinking themselves a team of losers is to stop making stupid mistakes. The confidence and expectations of winning shouldn't be too far behind.

Joe Texan
10-20-2008, 05:24 PM
You give Sage as much time as you pamper Matt with and I say Sage out does Matt by the numbers
Matt is our starting QB and I want him to succeed but his numbers really dwindled toward the end of the game. It is like they are figuring him out and have his number at the end of the game.

that said a W is a W and congratulations to all the Texans except Petey.

Norg
10-20-2008, 07:21 PM
Orton and Gus Frerotte are a huge reach. Especially Frerotte who has 80+ NFL starts in his career. Matt and Sage have 26 starts --- combined... As far as the others you mentioned, I'm pretty sure they were all under contract and not available (except Trent Edwards, who was drafted in 2007)

i wish we would of traded sage and picked up Brett Farve ............. :thinking:

Norg
10-20-2008, 07:24 PM
Here's a link to NFL.com and stats for all qb's through yesterdays action.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2008&seasonType=REG

Matt has the same number of int's as Drew Brees. I have $10 that says no one on the Saints board is questioning whther Brees should be their qb or not.

Man!!! And we won the freaking game yesterday!

yes but bress is overated

THats why just like us the saints are at the bottom of there divison

i dont know if u seen the saints game on sunday but the got WIpped

junior
10-20-2008, 09:06 PM
heres some food for thought:

David Carr started 16 games in this system for Kubiak

he had a record of 6-10, 3-3 in the division with 3 wins vs .500 or better teams ( 2 against the Jags and 1 vs Indy) his other wins were against Oak 2-14, Miami 6-10, Cleveland 4-12.

Matt Schaub has started 16 games in the same system

he has a record of 6-10, 0-6 in the division and 1 win vs a .500 or better team Cleveland 10-6. He did beat the 1-0 Panthers but they finished 7-9 his other wins, N.O. 7-9, Miami 1-15, this year Miami 2-4 and Detroit 0-6.

He has a lot to prove still, a division win would be nice, I know his numbers outshine Carr ,but do his results?

Texan JBZ
10-20-2008, 09:56 PM
heres some food for thought:

David Carr started 16 games in this system for Kubiak

he had a record of 6-10, 3-3 in the division with 3 wins vs .500 or better teams ( 2 against the Jags and 1 vs Indy) his other wins were against Oak 2-14, Miami 6-10, Cleveland 4-12.

Matt Schaub has started 16 games in the same system

he has a record of 6-10, 0-6 in the division and 1 win vs a .500 or better team Cleveland 10-6. He did beat the 1-0 Panthers but they finished 7-9 his other wins, N.O. 7-9, Miami 1-15, this year Miami 2-4 and Detroit 0-6.

He has a lot to prove still, a division win would be nice, I know his numbers outshine Carr ,but do his results?

I'd like to know how the defense played in all those games too.

Runner
10-20-2008, 10:16 PM
heres some food for thought:

David Carr started 16 games in this system for Kubiak

he had a record of 6-10, 3-3 in the division with 3 wins vs .500 or better teams ( 2 against the Jags and 1 vs Indy) his other wins were against Oak 2-14, Miami 6-10, Cleveland 4-12.

Matt Schaub has started 16 games in the same system

he has a record of 6-10, 0-6 in the division and 1 win vs a .500 or better team Cleveland 10-6. He did beat the 1-0 Panthers but they finished 7-9 his other wins, N.O. 7-9, Miami 1-15, this year Miami 2-4 and Detroit 0-6.

He has a lot to prove still, a division win would be nice, I know his numbers outshine Carr ,but do his results?

That is interesting. Now I'm going to try to not think about it.

The Pencil Neck
10-20-2008, 10:20 PM
I'd like to know how the defense played in all those games too.

In the first 3 games, the defense was about as bad as a defense could be. Carr was able to throw a bunch of TD's in those games, iirc.

After that, they were statistically about a top 10 team defensively. They had some good defensive outings; we beat the Raiders even though we had -5 net yards passing and we did a great job with the Giants. But they did have some really bad games like the Bill's game.

The Pencil Neck
10-20-2008, 10:29 PM
heres some food for thought:

David Carr started 16 games in this system for Kubiak

he had a record of 6-10, 3-3 in the division with 3 wins vs .500 or better teams ( 2 against the Jags and 1 vs Indy) his other wins were against Oak 2-14, Miami 6-10, Cleveland 4-12.

Matt Schaub has started 16 games in the same system

he has a record of 6-10, 0-6 in the division and 1 win vs a .500 or better team Cleveland 10-6. He did beat the 1-0 Panthers but they finished 7-9 his other wins, N.O. 7-9, Miami 1-15, this year Miami 2-4 and Detroit 0-6.

He has a lot to prove still, a division win would be nice, I know his numbers outshine Carr ,but do his results?

Look at it this way, Carr "won" a game against the Raiders when he threw for a whopping -5 yards net passing. We beat the Jags 13-10 in the second game and Carr went 16/32 and 167 yards. We beat the Colts and Carr went 16-23 for 163 yards and a score but the real reason was Ron Dayne's 32 carries for 153 yards and Mario's forced fumble. We won the Browns game and Carr went 9/15 for 86 yards and a pick; we won that game because of a big game from Chris Taylor and Anthony Maddux running back a fumble for a TD.

In the Raiders game and the Browns game, we would have done better with Owen Daniels playing QB.

The defense played better in those final 13 games of that season than it has at any time since.

Runner
10-20-2008, 11:02 PM
The Carr/Schaub non-disparity.

Options:

1) It's because the defense was significantly better when Kubiak had Carr.

If that is the case than the Rick Smith talent collection and Kubiak coaching isn't as high level as some people think, since the defense has declined so much since they got here.

1a) It's Richard Smith's fault.

This one is still on Kubiak, and it is a major negative in his tenure so far.

2) Simple. Schaub hasn't been a huge improvement over Carr in the final accounting of wins and losses.

Very surprising and troubling, since the overall talent on the current team is widely considered as superior to any previous Texans team.

3) Some spin that shows that the style points in the losses count for a bonus over the win/loss record.

3a) Football is harder now.

4) The basic numbers are wrong and we shouldn't be discussing this.

The Pencil Neck
10-21-2008, 01:18 AM
The Carr/Schaub non-disparity.

Well, look at it this way.

In Carr's last year, our offense was ranked 28th in scoring points and 28th in racking up yards.

So far this year, our offense is ranked 14th in scoring points and 5th in yards.

So, I think it's difficult to say that the offense has gotten worse with Schaub at the helm. Last year, we ended up 12th in scoring and 14th in yards. So our offense is improving.

Our defense was 25th in giving up points and 24th in yards in 06. It was 22nd and 24th in 07... which is slightly better... kinda. Right now, it's 29th in points but 14th in yards. So, our defense gives up less yards but more points and that leads us back to the takeaway/giveaway ratio. Our offense was 11th in giveaways and our defense was 28th in takeaways in 2006. This year, our offense is 31st in giveaways and our defense is 28th in takeaways.

And that comes back around to Schaub and our offense. It's a more aggressive offense. It racks up more yards and more points. But it's also, at least in this early part of the season, giving the ball away way too much.

I think our offense is much better and I think our defense may be improving. If Schaub can clean up the turnovers (and over the past 3 games, he's improved a lot), I think he's going to be an elite QB. I expect us to finish better than 6-10 this season.

GNTLEWOLF
10-21-2008, 01:34 AM
Let me preface this statement by saying that I think Schaub is our long term solution at QB. I think he manages the offense better than any QB we've had and he makes great plays.

I just watched the Detroit game again and saw the play where Schaub coughs up the ball near then end of the 2nd half. The defender's hand is on Schaub's back well before the ball pops out. I'm not sure why Schaub isn't covering up the football. It seems to me that in games against teams where turnovers are going to matter more, Schaub needs to be a lot more careful especially with his new penchant for running the ball when nothing's available down the field.

Without talking about Carr.... I'm not sold on Shaub just yet; neither am I not sold on him. I believe he still has a lot to prove and have taken a wait and see on him. That does not mean that I think he gets a pass on his errors. I'm not sure that a QB who was a 3 year back-up should have the problems protecting the ball that he has. I also think he has a better Oline than any previous QB this franchise has had. What really bothers me is that based on his contract, this FO still annoints a guy blindly without making him prove himself. BTW I am not now, nor never have thought Sage was the answer. Anyway, I will wait and see on Schaub. I hope He grows into the job and becomes a good one. If not, Then we definately need to draft a young guy and develop him.

Thorn
10-21-2008, 07:16 AM
All in all, the offense has shown improvement. We now expect this offense to make some long drives and score because we've seen it happen a lot. We also expect some asinine antics on their part to give up the ball and a defense that can barely stop a high school team. Is there improvement since the Carr years? I'd say yes, but not a whole lot.

Hooston Texan
10-21-2008, 07:19 AM
Here are some stats on scoring in Schaub's wins and Carr's wins in 2006:

2006 Wins
Opponents averaged 12.67 points in Carr's six wins.
We scored 20.17 in those games.

Schaub's Wins
Opponents averaged 18.17 points.
We scored 26.67 points in those games.

In only one of Schaub's wins (KC last year) did his defense allow fewer points than what Carr's defense averaged in its wins. If you actually think that Carr's play is comparable to Schaub's, I strongly suggest you go back and watch games from that season. The win/loss record is similar, but I cannot see how anyone can compare the two (save for Matt's bad play against Pittsburgh and Tennessee this year) having watched them.

What these stats say about our defense, I'd rather not think about.

gtexan02
10-21-2008, 07:40 AM
Even great QBs struggle against great defenses. Look what happened to Brees, a front runner for MVP until last weekend, when he played a top 5 passing defense in Carolina.

I think if Schaub could be a little less careless, he could be great. He makes good reads and he isn't afraid to throw the ball over the middle.

Anyone who is arguing that Carr to Schaub hasn't been a dramatic improvement in our passing game isn'tw atching the games and is looking at numbers too much

CloakNNNdagger
10-21-2008, 08:24 AM
Something that is not discussed in looking at QB passing stats is the breakdown of TOTAL PASSING YARDS.

Pass Yds = Air Yds + Yds after Catch

It is the AIR YARDS that is the most telling QB stat. It is not part of the readily available stats, not an official NFL stat............. but it is a stat that I just found out has been kept by STATS, INC.

This stat would help to determine if the QB is riding on the receivers' backs vs. the QB generating numbers on his own.

Here is an article that explains the concept of PASSING YARDS (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/introducing-air-yards.html).

I would welcome any of your thoughts on this in line with our present discussion.

Texan_Bill
10-21-2008, 08:50 AM
Something that is not discussed in looking at QB passing stats is the breakdown of TOTAL PASSING YARDS.

Pass Yds = Air Yds + Yds after Catch

It is the AIR YARDS that is the most telling QB stat. It is not part of the readily available stats, not an official NFL stat............. but it is a stat that I just found out has been kept by STATS, INC.

This stat would help to determine if the QB is riding on the receivers' backs vs. the QB generating numbers on his own.

Here is an article that explains the concept of PASSING YARDS (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/introducing-air-yards.html).

I would welcome any of your thoughts on this in line with our present discussion.

First, is Stats, Inc. a pay site? I tried to maneuver through it a bit and got nowhere.

Anyway, I certainly understand the difference outlined above. One of the best examples I can think of, would be Joe Montana. Many of his passes were 6 to 10 yard slants that Rice broke off for 40+ yard TD's. That in no way diminishes what Montana was all about because certainly he could hit the big one too.

I've noticed that this offense (whether Schaub or Rosenfels) can consistently hit the intermediate passes for 8-15 yards with relative ease. On the other hand, HWSRN had a hard time throwing the ball on a 5 yard route. I would venture to say that 70 to 80% of HWSRN's yards were yards after the catch. For example, if he dumped a 2 yard pass to D. Davis Williams and DD broke that off for a 10 yard gain, well there you go....

Texans_Chick
10-21-2008, 04:53 PM
More on Schaub....over at the TC blog, amplifying what I wrote in the thread:

Looking at Matt Schaub's 16 Houston Texan Starts (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2008/10/looking_at_matt_schaubs_16_hou_1.html)

I think it is too early to tell with Schaub on a lot of things. Interesting AJ comment at the end of that entry.

Texan_Bill
10-21-2008, 05:21 PM
More on Schaub....over at the TC blog, amplifying what I wrote in the thread:

Looking at Matt Schaub's 16 Houston Texan Starts (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2008/10/looking_at_matt_schaubs_16_hou_1.html)

I think it is too early to tell with Schaub on a lot of things. Interesting AJ comment at the end of that entry.

I would like to see AJ have more than 2 TD's from Schaub, though.

hradhak
10-21-2008, 06:21 PM
For all those wait and see-ers on Schaub, I'm curious to know how long is too long to wait on Schaub? I guess I'm asking at what point do you say you just can't keep him anymore. I guess you could now say that he's a 2nd year player now that he's finished 1 season worth of games. Given that, he seems to be pretty damn good for a 2nd year starter. I think my only complaint with him then would be that he needs to protect the ball better.

Tedc
10-21-2008, 06:34 PM
Schaub turnovers??? MMMMM!!



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y224/Tedc/turnover-1.jpg

junior
10-21-2008, 07:07 PM
heres some food for thought:

David Carr started 16 games in this system for Kubiak

he had a record of 6-10, 3-3 in the division with 3 wins vs .500 or better teams ( 2 against the Jags and 1 vs Indy) his other wins were against Oak 2-14, Miami 6-10, Cleveland 4-12.

Matt Schaub has started 16 games in the same system

he has a record of 6-10, 0-6 in the division and 1 win vs a .500 or better team Cleveland 10-6. He did beat the 1-0 Panthers but they finished 7-9 his other wins, N.O. 7-9, Miami 1-15, this year Miami 2-4 and Detroit 0-6.

He has a lot to prove still, a division win would be nice, I know his numbers outshine Carr ,but do his results?

I am not comparing the play just the results, if you are saying our defense was better 2 years ago than it is today thats argueable.

I just thought it was interesting. His wins seem to come against inferior teams and he usually suffers against good ones, which leads me to believe he was who I thought he was (to quote Denny Green) an average QB.

Texans_Chick
10-21-2008, 09:00 PM
I would like to see AJ have more than 2 TD's from Schaub, though.

True that. They will come.

The *problem* is that the Texans offense is designed to spread around the ball. They have multiple players who can score TDs. And you don't want to have the issue of forcing the ball to AJ in bad situations because that leads to INTs.

Will say that I could go the entire rest of my life without Vonta Leach getting the ball thrown to him in the endzone. Unless of course, it is during a crucial play and he actually catches the ball or something.

Mari-OWNED!
10-22-2008, 08:19 AM
Schaub is just very inconsistent. I wish he was consistently good, or even consistently bad. Just so I don't get my hopes all pumped up before a game, to end up getting let down. That's why I have an alcohol problem...