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The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 10:31 PM
Alright I have eaten crow about Mario, so this is for my boy Reggie kicking ass tonight.:fans:

Since Mario and Reggie have both exploded I guess its LOL to one Mr. Vince Young

dtran04
10-06-2008, 10:35 PM
And people are ragging on Kubiak for his decisions.... Brad Childress is trying to get fired.

Second Honeymoon
10-06-2008, 10:36 PM
Bush stepped up after the two fumbles...the one was partially due to the facemask that was missed but the second one was just a fumble. he screwed up and what did he do? he stepped up and made up for it and was pretty classy while doing so.

Runner
10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
Billy Miller looks good too. He just got nailed though.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 10:50 PM
Mike Karney is freakin' awsome

Goldensilence
10-06-2008, 10:50 PM
Bush stepped up after the two fumbles...the one was partially due to the facemask that was missed but the second one was just a fumble. he screwed up and what did he do? he stepped up and made up for it and was pretty classy while doing so.

Well I guess you have to do something to make up for a bad running game....a decent game for a WR. I'll be honest he's not a terrible player but nothing worth spending a top 5 pick on.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:04 PM
He's a WR (not a RB)........in any other system the coach would've already made the switch by now, but when you watch Sean Payton it seems he doesn't like to run the ball anyway (seriously he passes on almost every damn down, Duece is healthy again and he won't even run him) so why not just have another WR line up in your backfield. The truth is, Reggie went to the perfect system and only one of the few systems that will allow him to save face as a somewhat respectable player. In most systems Reggie is just a less explosive Devin Hester......not much else.

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:07 PM
I'd take him on the Texans in a second. The team could use a play maker whatever position he's in.

Corrosion
10-06-2008, 11:07 PM
Alright I have eaten crow about Mario, so this is for my boy Reggie kicking ass tonight.:fans:

Since Mario and Reggie have both exploded I guess its LOL to one Mr. Vince Young

Reggie exploded alright , with his best impersonation of Sage Rosenfels .... Couple fumbles tonight .... :photos:

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:08 PM
Reggie exploded alright , with his best impersonation of Sage Rosenfels .... Couple fumbles tonight .... :photos:

1 was all his

The other was more of a result of a guy twisting him by the face mask while he dug for the ball with the other hand.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:10 PM
I'd take him on the Texans in a second. The team could use a play maker whatever position he's in.

So he could sit behind Slaton.......what you need to ask yourself is why Kubiak won't pull his head out of his ass and let Slaton return kicks (he needs to give Slaton as many touches as he can) instead of that overrated dumbass that goes by the name of Jacoby Jones. (the guy hasn't made a play in over a year and shouldn't have even made the damn team......but Kubiak and Smith are trying to save face for the third they wasted on him)

Slaton could've easily returned that punt as well.....horrible punt coverage + excellent blocking = skate to the endzone untouched.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:11 PM
I'd take him on the Texans in a second. The team could use a play maker whatever position he's in.

He and Steve Slaton are basically the same player (Kubes probably uses the plays he had installed for Bush before the draft) but Bush has more raw talent.

It amazing what you can do with zone blocking holes instead of a bunch of draws.

Goldensilence
10-06-2008, 11:12 PM
1 was all his

The other was more of a result of a guy twisting him by the face mask while he dug for the ball with the other hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BkIh1R5utY&feature=related

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:14 PM
If he was a Texan I think the fans would figure out he's too good to "sit behind Slaton" - play them both. He's a play maker that can break big gains from multiple positions. I guess some people don't think the Texans could use that.

By the way, search the archives. I was a "draft Mario" guy. I just don't let some petty who's better arguments cloud my vision when I see NFL talent.

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:14 PM
Tony Kornheiser is such a douchebag!!!

"What more could Reggie Bush have done to help the Saints win this game?"

Well Tony MAYBE if he didn't lose 2 FUMBLES that would've helped the Saints win the game?

Barry Sayers seems to be carving out a niche as a fine PR however, i'll give him that.

LonerATO
10-06-2008, 11:16 PM
He and Steve Slaton are basically the same player (Kubes probably uses the plays he had installed for Bush before the draft) but Bush has more raw talent.

It amazing what you can do with zone blocking holes instead of a bunch of draws.

I am so tired of the Reggie/Mario talk who cares anymore we arent winning either way. Yes that is true Slaton is a lot like Bush in that they are both 3rd down backs but Apple is right in that ZBS allows someone like Slaton to be the starting back in that kind of system.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:18 PM
Some piss poor work by Ed Hercules all around tonight. He screwed both teams at times.

RTP2110
10-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Why in the hell was NO throwing at the end of the game? (before the 2 min warning, not the last hail mary) Bad playcalling cost them that game, IMO. 2 run plays on 2nd and 3rd down would got the Kicker closer and chewed up the clock. they probably would have won, at the worst been in OT.

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Slaton doesn't dance behind the line like Reggie either. Also, Reggie has had a fumbling problem his whole career as a pro. Hopefully Slaton doesn't mirror him in that regard. People compare the two because of their perceived roles in their respective offenses but Slaton is quickly separating himself because he is proving to be a legitimate feature back while Bush is proving to be a legitimate PR.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:21 PM
I am so tired of the Reggie/Mario talk who cares anymore we arent winning either way. Yes that is true Slaton is a lot like Bush in that they are both 3rd down backs but Apple is right in that ZBS allows someone like Slaton to be the starting back in that kind of system.

Wasn't turning this into a Mario/Bush debate. I'm a Reggie man thru-n-thru but Mario was the right pick for the Texans.

I just don't get the hate on Reggie when Slaton is basically a toned down Bush in the perfect system.

I guess I'm just a fan of that kind of RB. After the 2006 draft I was calling for the Texans to snag Slaton. Glad they did

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-06-2008, 11:22 PM
Reggie Bush can't carry Slaton's jock.

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:22 PM
Wasn't turning this into a Mario/Bush debate. I'm a Reggie man thru-n-thru but Mario was the right pick for the Texans.

I just don't get the hate on Reggie when Slaton is basically a toned down Bush in the perfect system.

I guess I'm just a fan of that kind of RB. After the 2006 draft I was calling for the Texans to snag Slaton. Glad they did

See my above post. Bush dances and fumbles, Slaton makes one cut and smashes opposing defenders.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:22 PM
If he was a Texan I think the fans would figure out he's too good to "sit behind Slaton" - play them both. He's a play maker that can break big gains from multiple positions. I guess some people don't think the Texans could use that.

Name the amount of big plays he's made from mulitple positions.......he has 3 punt returns, which is good (counting one tonight where his team laid everybody out on his way to the endzone)

and 3 plays in 3 years over 40 yards from his "multiple" offensive positions.....

I guess we should've kept Mathis for the kick return duties (but then he was never healthy anyways........but then again he didn't cost 50 mil either)

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:22 PM
I am amazed that Houston players are so good that a person like Reggie Bush wouldn't be an upgrade to the team. We don't need Reggie Bush, we've got Steve Slaton!

It almost makes one wonder why the Texans have the record they do, with all that talent.

Double Barrel
10-06-2008, 11:22 PM
I don't have a problem with Reggie Bush. I don't mind seeing him play well. He was one of two players that were offered deals for the 2006 draft, so it's good to see that our new HC wasn't blinded by the VY homerhype and had chosen the two best non-QB players available.

He took a few harmless jabs at the Texans. So what, his ego was hurt (and we didn't play his hold out game). At least his hype was somewhat deserved.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:25 PM
See my above post. Bush dances and fumbles, Slaton makes one cut and smashes opposing defenders.

Slaton was a dancer before comming to the Texans. The got him to fit the system and give him holes to run through.

The Saints can't open a hole (for Duece either) to save their lives in the middle.

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:25 PM
I am amazed that Houston players are so good that a person like Reggie Bush wouldn't be an upgrade to the team. We don't need Reggie Bush, we've got Steve Slaton!

It almost makes one wonder why the Texans have the record they do.

Reggie Bush would definately get playing time on the Texans as a PR/slot receiver. Ideally if he'd stayed his senior year and come out in 07 we could've snagged him where we took Jacoby Jones. That way his pay grade would match what he'd contribute to the team.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:27 PM
I am amazed that Houston players are so good that a person like Reggie Bush wouldn't be an upgrade to the team. We don't need Reggie Bush, we've got Steve Slaton!

It almost makes one wonder why the Texans have the record they do, with all that talent.

So your saying Reggie Bush is better than what Steve Slaton has shown this year? Please explain?

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Slaton was a dancer before comming to the Texans. The got him to fit the system and give him holes to run through.

The Saints can't open a hole (for Duece either) to save their lives in the middle.

They were able to open holes in 06 when they went to the conference championship for Deuce. They were able to open holes in 07 for career 3rd down back Aaron Stecker and UDFA Pierre Thomas who outplayed Reggie at RB.

Some guys learn to stop dancing and some dont. Some guys fumble and some dont. Reggie is a very good slot receiver/PR. Just not a good RB. He's proven those points the last 2.25 seasons he's played.

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:29 PM
Steve Slaton
Ahman Green
et. al.


I think Reggie could play as a running back on this team.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:30 PM
Slaton was a dancer before comming to the Texans. The got him to fit the system and give him holes to run through.

The Saints can't open a hole (for Duece either) to save their lives in the middle.

Wrongo pal.......Slaton was "TARGETED AND DRAFTED" by the Texans because WV ran the same exact zone scheme as the Texans......why the hell do you think he was able to come in from day one and run the system better than any back that we had the year before. He's not averaging 5ypc because the staff told him "not to dance", it's because this is his 4th year in this system.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:30 PM
Steve Slaton
Ahman Green
et. al.


I think Reggie could play as a running back on this team.

at 50mil you want him as the backup.

LonerATO
10-06-2008, 11:31 PM
Wasn't turning this into a Mario/Bush debate. I'm a Reggie man thru-n-thru but Mario was the right pick for the Texans.

I just don't get the hate on Reggie when Slaton is basically a toned down Bush in the perfect system.

I guess I'm just a fan of that kind of RB. After the 2006 draft I was calling for the Texans to snag Slaton. Glad they did

didnt mean for the post to come off as an attack against you it was meant in general

RazorOye
10-06-2008, 11:32 PM
It's amusing to watch how hard some Texans fans work to discredit anything positive Bush does.

Some of you guys are comical in our disdain as you reach for reasons why Bush is so terrible.

The Saints offensive line can't open holes for Thomas, Bush, or McAllister this season. They are strong pass blockers - but not strong run blockers. That might change with a guy like Nicks in on the left side with Brown - but against the Vikes DLine - that's a tall order for a rookie.

How is it sooo impossible for some of you to admit that the Texans and Saints both got strong players who are only getting stronger?

You're telling me that the Texans would PASS on a player leading the NFL in total yards?

Can't hold Slaton's jock?

Comical.

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:34 PM
So your saying Reggie Bush is better than what Steve Slaton has shown this year? Please explain?


I guess I should explain since people get so knee jerk when they see Reggie's name they don't bother reading.

I said the Texans could use Bush. I did not say in place of Mario. I did not say in place of Slaton. I said they could use him.

==========================

In non-Reggie related news, Slaton's played four games. I know that Spencer was being voted into the pro bowl after a couple of pre-season quarters, but I think I'd like to see Steve continue the good work a while before assuming the running game is fixed for the next few years.

Note that the bolded part means that I know he is playing well.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:35 PM
Wrongo pal.......Slaton was "TARGETED AND DRAFTED" by the Texans because WV ran the same exact zone scheme as the Texans......why the hell do you think he was able to come in from day one and run the system better than any back that we had the year before.

Probably because he is the best talent we have ever had at the RB spot.

He also did dance around a lot (look at any WVU game or read scouting reports). He didn't become 1 cut until he got into the system.

The plays Slaton run now are the same Bush would have had if he came in the 2006 draft. He was also targeted for drafting by Gary Kubiak. Money was the only problem not running style.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:36 PM
It's amusing to watch how hard some Texans fans work to discredit anything positive Bush does.

Some of you guys are comical in our disdain as you reach for reasons why Bush is so terrible.

The Saints offensive line can't open holes for Thomas, Bush, or McAllister this season. They are strong pass blockers - but not strong run blockers. That might change with a guy like Nicks in on the left side with Brown - but against the Vikes DLine - that's a tall order for a rookie.

How is it sooo impossible for some of you to admit that the Texans and Saints both got strong players who are only getting stronger?

You're telling me that the Texans would PASS on a player leading the NFL in total yards?

Can't hold Slaton's jock?

Comical.

As a running back Bush can't hold Slaton's jock as a WR he's very talented out of the backfield and he has returns.

I'm not trying to discredit Bush, I'm just not blown away with his running style sorry. He is however a good punt returner though.

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:36 PM
at 50mil you want him as the backup.

No - I assume in an open competition Reggie would beat out the rookie, but I'd keep them both. Heck, I'd even have them on the field together.

gg no re
10-06-2008, 11:36 PM
You're telling me that the Texans would PASS on a player leading the NFL in total yards?And someone would pay a player over $50 million to be a glorified KR/PR/slot receiver?

Well, yeah.

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:39 PM
And someone would pay a player over $50 million to be a glorified KR/PR/slot receiver?

Well, yeah.

That would still make him the best offensive player on the Texans roster (depending on what mood AJ was in that day)

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:40 PM
I wouldn't want to have to pay $50 million for any player, especially a rookie. This does include Reggie, Mario, and everyone else. I think the rookie salary scale is hurting the league and takes away from the veterans.

RazorOye
10-06-2008, 11:40 PM
And someone would pay a player over $50 million to be a glorified KR/PR/slot receiver?

Well, yeah.

you're right... a winless team couldn't use a player tied for the league lead in touchdowns

I'm completely offbase :(

TheRealJoker
10-06-2008, 11:40 PM
That would still make him the best offensive player on the Texans roster (depending on what mood AJ was in that day)

Oh no you did not...

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:42 PM
I'm not trying to discredit Bush,

Really?

The1ApplePie
10-06-2008, 11:43 PM
Wow

Start a topic about Reggie having a great game (and supporting Mario while doing it) and it feels like 2006 again!

Got a long commute and work to look forward to. Talk to you guys later.

It is a nice distraction from Sunday though:splits:

Runner
10-06-2008, 11:43 PM
you're right... a winless team couldn't use a player tied for the league lead in touchdowns

I'm completely offbase :(


The Texans don't need good players or touchdowns. They have a system, the players work their tails off, and the coaches work long hours.

And with that, I'm out of here.

LonerATO
10-06-2008, 11:45 PM
The Texans don't need good players or touchdowns. They have a system, the players work their tails off, and the coaches work long hours.

to help the other team win

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:46 PM
Probably because he is the best talent we have ever had at the RB spot.

He also did dance around a lot (look at any WVU game or read scouting reports). He didn't become 1 cut until he got into the system.

The plays Slaton run now are the same Bush would have had if he came in the 2006 draft. He was also targeted for drafting by Gary Kubiak. Money was the only problem not running style.

Money was not the only problem.......Mario AND Reggie were targeted, when both were asked about reaching a contract Bush acted like a future holdout, Mario didn't tie breaker Mario, when the Bush scandel started surfacing Mario was the clear winner.......thank god.

Also Slaton was not a dancer, never was a dancer, honestly I don't even know where your getting this from, it's well documented WV ran the zone scheme......all you have to do is watch a mix tape of his college days and you can plainly see the "Denver zone" and one cut and go Slaton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5I2HVWlkk
(now compare that to a Reggie Bush college mix where he's spining in the backfield....running from sideline to sideline, reversing runs.....it's not even comparable)

No dancing....like I said he's clearly been playing in this system going on 4 damn years now, they didn't have to teach him anything really.

Carr Bombed
10-06-2008, 11:53 PM
Really?

Please pull up all I said about him....

1. I said he's playing in the perfect system for his skills.....(true since the majority of his plays are as a WR, not a running back, perfect for a team that hardly runs the ball)

2. He's a great WR out of the backfield (also true)

3. Slaton is a better running back and a much better option for this team (also true since again he spent his entire college career in this zone system...unlike what the other poster tried to say)

4. If I'm missing something please tell me.

I'm just trying to tell the truth, if we just wanted to run a spread option (which if you think about it that's what Payton does) then great let's get a 50 million dollar reciever that averages less the 10 yards a catch, but we don't run a NFL spread. We run a NFL zone......all of which doesn't fit Bush's running style....I don't even know what his running style is.

Texecutioner
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
all of which doesn't fit Bush's running style....I don't even know what his running style is.

I sure as hell couldn't tell you either. He's a just a dancer. Maybe he'll become the the guy who that running style and term comes from as much as they use it to describe him. He's the dancer. :spot:

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 12:39 AM
Damn I just realized Bush returned two punts......didn't see the second, props to him.......see I'm not all bad. :cool:

Kubiak really needs to be more creative with the way he uses Slaton......the guy is multi-talented.....still don't understand why Jacoby lines up for kicks, I bet he fumbles one this week......hell he almost let one hit him last week while being surrounded by colts.

nunusguy
10-07-2008, 07:06 AM
I thought I'd gag last night when ESPNs top Catskills stand-up clown started his shtick about Bush and said he would be the "star of stars" if only he played in the NFL like he did at USC. Kornheisers not so subtle hype of Bush and any player in or from USC is such an obvious commercial promo for his employers corporate parent, Walt Disney Inc., which owns ESPN & ABC.
But with McCalisters being out most of last year due to injury, Bush had all of the 2007 season to establish himself as an NFL running back and he did establish something - he's clearly not an NFL running back. Now our 3rd round pick, rookie Steve Slaton, has alread done more in that endeavor than Bush did in the whole 2007 season.
Now is Bush an exciting and very successful punt returner ? You bet, so maybe he can make it to the pro bowl as a special teams player. But here's the stats this year: Slaton has 285 yards on 57 carriers with an average rush of 5.0 while Bush has 212 yards on 64 carriers with an average rush of 3.3. And Slaton has played one less game than Bush.

BigBull17
10-07-2008, 07:14 AM
I'd take him on the Texans in a second. The team could use a play maker whatever position he's in.

Slaton is better in the running game, almost as good a reciever, and Reggie is the better return guy. Difference? 2nd overall, and mid 3rd round. Eh, Reggie aint bad when he's not getting other teams pumped up by taunting during returns (Chicago in the play offs, and Washington this year). Hes the 2nd best of the top 3.

Brando
10-07-2008, 07:37 AM
He could have had 3 punt returns for a TD but he tripped up on the Saints logo. He saw an open filled and his legs basically gave out on him. :user: I don't know what he ended up with but at one point he was 10 carries for 29 yards(edit 12 for 29), he clearly is not a running back but a punt returner/WR. After Tony Kornholio said something to the effect that "a" team passed up Reggie Bush and drafted Mario Williams, I watched a little more but ended up turning it off and watched the Red Sox beat the Angels.

gg no re
10-07-2008, 08:05 AM
you're right... a winless team couldn't use a player tied for the league lead in touchdowns

I'm completely offbase :(Well we all know Drew Brees is the breadwinner for the Saints, so i don't know why you carry on.

chicagotexan2
10-07-2008, 08:10 AM
Good game by him. But last season Bush had a great opportunity to carry the load as the feature back and he stunk. He's an exceptional WR, he's a marginal RB. He was drafted to play RB. I don't really care what he does I just want take this opportunity to say I love seeing Kim Kardashian Bush running wild.

bah007
10-07-2008, 08:40 AM
Money was not the only problem.......Mario AND Reggie were targeted, when both were asked about reaching a contract Bush acted like a future holdout, Mario didn't tie breaker Mario, when the Bush scandel started surfacing Mario was the clear winner.......thank god.

Also Slaton was not a dancer, never was a dancer, honestly I don't even know where your getting this from, it's well documented WV ran the zone scheme......all you have to do is watch a mix tape of his college days and you can plainly see the "Denver zone" and one cut and go Slaton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5I2HVWlkk
(now compare that to a Reggie Bush college mix where he's spining in the backfield....running from sideline to sideline, reversing runs.....it's not even comparable)

No dancing....like I said he's clearly been playing in this system going on 4 damn years now, they didn't have to teach him anything really.

Read any scouting report or watch any tape of Slaton and you will see that there were real concerns about him dancing in the backfield the same way Bush does.

I gotta give Slaton some real credit. He was labeled as a scatback who danced in the backfield, & he worked his ass off to become a running back. Props.

Regarding Bush:

It really is ridiculous how Texans fans literally refuse to admit that he is a good player. Is he worth what he is being paid? Hell no.

I was all about drafting Mario. I had a smile on my face for about a month after the draft cuz I was certain we had dodged a real bullet by passing on Bush.

Mario was the right player for the Texans to choose. Bush was the right player for the Saints to choose. EVERYBODY needs to just deal with it.

I hated the Bush hype coming out of college more than anyone. I saw right through it for what he really is.

He is a terrible running back.

He is the best slot WR in the NFL. Period.

He is a very good punt returner.

Polo
10-07-2008, 08:50 AM
LOL....

I watched Slaton a bunch in college and he's shown far more "dancing" ability in the pro's than he ever did in college...

In college, to me, he looked a little stiff at times...

Yankee_In_TX
10-07-2008, 08:52 AM
Freekeeeen awesome game. I wish Reggie wouldn't have tripped, he would have had 3 to the house. Stinks the Saints were so good statistically but made killer mistakes.

bah007
10-07-2008, 08:57 AM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/steve-slaton?id=945#player-profile-tab-set-1:player-profile-tab-analysis

...Needs to show more straight-line explosion and urgency hitting the rush lanes, as he got in trouble in 2007 by dancing around so much in the backfield, trying to pick that perfect hole to break it open for a big gain rather than be concerned with moving the chains...

...Does not have the power to move the pile or break many arm tackles (relies more on his quick feet, fakes and hip snap to elude), as he will generally be captured on the initial hit...

...Slaton's problem in 2007 was that he decided to be too cute carrying the ball, running back and forth in the backfield and dancing around too much trying to pick that perfect hole...

These were just some of the concerns regarding Slaton.

I give him credit. SO FAR, he looks like the real deal.

Slaton was a great college back until 2007. Noel Devine came in and started making big play after big play & I think it got into Steve's head that he was gonna lose his job. So he started trying to hit the home run on every play instead of just doing what he had been doing his first two years there.

Second Honeymoon
10-07-2008, 09:02 AM
i can't believe people are even thinking that Slaton is more valuable than Bush. I love Slaton and he looks like a keeper but were talking about Bush here. Dude is a very versatile and dangerous weapon far more versatile and dangerous than Slaton. Maybe Slaton is better suited as a RB but I think Payton's system doesn't necessitate a lot of between the tackles running.

bush almost had 3 PRs in one game and he is like 2nd in the league in receptions over the past 2 or 3 years...i don't see how that sucks or somehow lowers his value.

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 09:16 AM
Well we all know Drew Brees is the breadwinner for the Saints, so i don't know why you carry on.

nowhere did I suggest that Brees wasn't

Your point was a ridiculous one and it's nice that you come by your forum title honestly

It really is ridiculous how Texans fans literally refuse to admit that he is a good player. Is he worth what he is being paid? Hell no.

I was all about drafting Mario. I had a smile on my face for about a month after the draft cuz I was certain we had dodged a real bullet by passing on Bush.

Mario was the right player for the Texans to choose. Bush was the right player for the Saints to choose. EVERYBODY needs to just deal with it.

QFT

I don't understand why so many Texans fans think that Reggie's and Mario's success are mutually exclusive

Kaiser Toro
10-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Bush is a Special Teams phenom and is one of the best catcher of balls thrown to him of all time from the start of his career. He has caught two passes beyond ten yards in his career out of ~200 receptions. Like in college he is not the best RB on his team. Payton's offense is a perfect fit for him.

Exciting player, but I sure as heck am glad we did not spend the money on him for these services.

gg no re
10-07-2008, 09:34 AM
nowhere did I suggest that Brees wasn't

Your point was a ridiculous one and it's nice that you come by your forum title honestlyIt's not really ridiculous at all, it's a pretty valid argument. But that's to be expected of someone who also goes by their forum title.

HOU-TEX
10-07-2008, 09:39 AM
Bush is a Special Teams phenom and is one of the best catcher of balls thrown to him of all time from the start of his career. He has caught two passes beyond ten yards in his career out of ~200 receptions. Like in college he is not the best RB on his team. Payton's offense is a perfect fit for him.

Exciting player, but I sure as heck am glad we did not spend the money on him for these services.

I agree. What round was Devin Hester picked? Oh yeah, the 2nd round. :shades:

Mr teX
10-07-2008, 10:17 AM
he's a nice weapon to have, but for what he's being paid, he can be taken out of the game too easily for my liking.

1, b/c he can't run between the tackles very well & 2 b/c you don't have to punt to him, you can just punt it out of bounds. He only did what he did last night b/c Minn was dumb enough to kick it to him 3 times in a row last night. Reminds me of Denver punting to Hester in that 1 game last year.

Mr teX
10-07-2008, 10:18 AM
Bush is a Special Teams phenom and is one of the best catcher of balls thrown to him of all time from the start of his career. He has caught two passes beyond ten yards in his career out of ~200 receptions. Like in college he is not the best RB on his team. Payton's offense is a perfect fit for him.

Exciting player, but I sure as heck am glad we did not spend the money on him for these services.

that's a lie & you know it.

Ole Miss Texan
10-07-2008, 10:29 AM
Reggie Bush is a guy I love to hate... well all us Texans fans love to hate. but I've gotten past the fact of the media lambasting us b/c Mario is just so incredible. Mario is just scary awesome. Okay anyways I'm getting off base... /mariomancrush :)

This is where I'm at in regards to Reggie: Bush ended up on a perfect team for him. He's not a typical RB, but fits perfectly in the saints offense and sean payton's style of coaching. Reggie makes the saints a better team. He's an incredible athlete and a fun player to watch. He's dynamic and is being used perfectly towards his strengths. Not an inside runner, but good receiver out of the back field, good in space, and great punt returner. Now, does that warrant his high dollar contract? maybe, probably not. Definitely not for the Texans. Was he overhyped? probably. but at the end of the day he's one of the best players on the saints team and that's all that matters for them. he makes mistakes, so be it.

Mario makes the Texans better than Reggie would have. end of story in my mind. On to Slaton. I love this guy! He's what we need on the team. He is a much better pure running back than reggie. Slaton is what we need on this team so he's a perfect fit. Reggie and Slaton both on our team wouldn't work well. The times they would be on the field together would be minimal b/c they are similar. We need a deuce to go with slaton, not a reggie to go with slaton. Slaton fits this offense so perfectly... he's going to be a star for us. I love we got him in the 3rd round.

So to recap. Bush is an all around more electrifying player than Slaton, but I think when it comes to the TEXANS, Slaton is a much better fit for what Kubiak wants to do. Slaton's contract makes it that much better than to be paying #2 overall money. Again though, we're getting ahead of ourselves if we keep saying Bush sucks and is not good. The saints are a much better team with him than without him. (and i'll admit, i was one calling him a bust last year:)):texflag:

Hookem Horns
10-07-2008, 10:55 AM
The bottom line is Reggie Bush is not a good running back. He might be a great PR and slot receiver however he was touted before the draft as being the next Gayle Sayers.

I said he would be the next Eric Metcalf and he is proving me right. He reminded me a lot of Metcalf lastnight. A dangerous weapon that is always a threat to take one to the house on a PR or catching the ball in the open field but not much of a threat running between the tackles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iWa4D1S_KY&feature=related

Slayton already looks much more like an NFL running back than Bush and I think that is the point many are making.

gtexan02
10-07-2008, 11:15 AM
that's a lie & you know it.

No its not. They showed the stats lst night during the MNF game. He has 2 receptions where he physically caught the ball 10 yards downfield or farther

BigBull17
10-07-2008, 11:19 AM
he's a nice weapon to have, but for what he's being paid, he can be taken out of the game too easily for my liking.

1, b/c he can't run between the tackles very well & 2 b/c you don't have to punt to him, you can just punt it out of bounds. He only did what he did last night b/c Minn was dumb enough to kick it to him 3 times in a row last night. Reminds me of Denver punting to Hester in that 1 game last year.

True that. How dumb is CHildress? Why in the world would you keep punting to the guy?

Brando
10-07-2008, 11:37 AM
that's a lie & you know it.


No they had that statistic last night on the game.

Just for the record he is a good player as a punt returner and a good WR out of the backfield. He can't run between the tackles and falls down easily when he gets tackled. The biggest difference between Bush and Slaton is that Slaton is harder to tackle and fights for extra yards after contact.

Ole Miss Texan
10-07-2008, 12:49 PM
The stat in question was this:

Bush had 194 career receptions
96 were caught behind the line of scrimmage
96 were caught 1-10 yards beyond the line of scrimmage
2 were caught over 10 yards from the line of scrimmage

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 02:55 PM
Read any scouting report or watch any tape of Slaton and you will see that there were real concerns about him dancing in the backfield the same way Bush does.

I gotta give Slaton some real credit. He was labeled as a scatback who danced in the backfield, & he worked his ass off to become a running back. Props.

Where the hell are you people getting this from.......Slaton was not a dancer in college......I am also a big WV fan, I wanted Slaton in the draft.......I watched Slaton in college, he ran in the same zone scheme we run here and he's not a dancer.

As far as reading souting reports, I haven't seen any that said he was a dancer in the backfield and if they do who cares, I watched him with my own eyes (the majority of his games......My family is originally from WV) here's some "tape" on him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5I2HVWlkk&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrm0idTUAq8&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUgvCtO_OME&feature=related&fmt=18

Where's all this dancing?

He's a one cut and go guy, it's probably the whole reason why Smith drafted him, I wouldn't be surprised if they targeted him from day 1 and said, this is the guy we have to get. He's made for this system, he knows this system, and he's kicking ass in this system. (especially for my fantasy team :cool:)


Regarding Bush:

It really is ridiculous how Texans fans literally refuse to admit that he is a good player. Is he worth what he is being paid? Hell no.

I never said Bush isn't a good player........again,

I said he's a good receiver out of the backfield, a good kick returner, is playing in the perfect system (spread offense) where he can get the ball in space for his skills, but is a absolute crappy rb.......now tell me if I'm off base on that.

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 03:19 PM
It's not really ridiculous at all, it's a pretty valid argument. But that's to be expected of someone who also goes by their forum title.

He's on track for 700 yards rushing, 1050 yards receiving on over 100 yards and that's not even including his yards on returns. I'll take 1800 total yards from scrimmage from a 3rd year player with a poor run-blocking offensive line.

Is he worth his salary? Probably not. But look at the Top 10 from that draft - who else in that number is?

I don't know.

William, Bush, and Ferguson are the top picks from the Top 10 that year. The Saints are getting a better return on their cash than all of those other high-paying teams except - arguably - the Texans and Jets.

I see the argument.

I fail to see the "validity"

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 03:25 PM
than arguably........no there's no argument about it, Houston is getting the better return. A double digit sack DE sits only behind a franchise QB and a franchise LT. Mario is going to be a franchise DE for the next decade, the Reggie well will be long dried up by then.

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 03:33 PM
than arguably........no there's no argument about it, Houston is getting the better return. A double digit sack DE sits only behind a franchise QB and a franchise LT.

did you see the other thread where I placed Mario ahead of Reggie?

I love the Saints but I'm not some kool-aid drinking homer incapable of admitting that Mario is a stronger player than Reggie. I put "arguably" because that's the argument that we are having right now, are we not?

Good grief.

Every time I think that you become a bit more even-tempered and rational you go off and post something as foolish as this:

Mario is going to be a franchise DE for the next decade, the Reggie well will be long dried up by then.

We have no idea what's going to happen in the next ten years. So such projections are more a reflection of kool-aid induced myopia than objectivity.

Only time will tell.

I give the Texans all the credit in the world and after living in Houston for years, I hoped the entire time that Mario would pan out.

It's a shame when fans of the game can't put aside their pettiness and look at situations a bit more objectively.

I understand why the hate for Reggie initially. I just don't understand how y'all can't get past it.

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 03:42 PM
Hmm so I'm not even tempered by saying that.......please explain to me how the shelf life of a RB is longer than a DE and how that comment is so off base and rediculous......I'm looking forward to hearing that response.

P.S.

I'm well past the passing of Reggie Bush. (the person who started this thread is a USC fan...) If Mario didn't pan out I might be sore, but since we have arguably the best DE in the NFL and a very good young RB it's not even up for debate. All we need now is a good head coach that can call the right plays to win games and a QB (hopefully Schaub) that can lock down the position........oh yeah and more defensive help (new coach and players)

Texan_Bill
10-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Bush - 6 years; $48 mill.; $ 26 guaranteed

Slaton - 4 years; $1.8 mill (IIRC); $664,000 signing bonus (Someone verify for me, I think I got this from Battle Red Nation).



Ummm, I'll take 27 Steve Slatons over one overhyped Bush.

Ole Miss Texan
10-07-2008, 04:06 PM
Bush - 6 years; $48 mill.; $ 26 guaranteed

Slaton - 4 years; $1.8 mill (IIRC); $664,000 signing bonus (Someone verify for me, I think I got this from Battle Red Nation).


I was waiting for someone to post this! Thanks for the info. I think cost/benefit that Slaton wins hands down (maybe just my hands). As far as cost we need to add not only the $ figure of the contract but the Draft pick used too. So it's a double whammy.

I think we need to be careful when judging two player, draft position, and salary because there are always exceptions to the rule. Insert every late round player that's become a huge success... But in regards to Running Back, I think it's a lot easier to scout (especially for this system) than some other positions. It's much much easier to find a good RB for this team in the late first, 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds meaning we don't have to spend the #1 or #2 overall picks on a very very similar product. Slaton, for example, I DON'T think is an exception. I think we can find a good back to pair with him in the 2nd or 3rd next year without spending a 1st rounder. Terrell Davis IS an exception. A talent like that in the 6th round is not normal but rare.

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 04:21 PM
Hmm so I'm not even tempered by saying that.......please explain to me how the shelf life of a RB is longer than a DE and how that comment is so off base and rediculous......I'm looking forward to hearing that response.


myopia, as I said - shortsightedness

You have no idea what either player's career will be like at the end. This is a discussion that's entirely premature.

So I think it's offbase and ridiculous to start talking about what either player's career is going to look like a decade from now and using that supposition as some sort of indisputibe evidence is foolish and, yes, ridiculous. To project and discuss is one thing. Using it as evidence to win an argument is absurd.

If prognostication = fact, then what's the use of even playing?

It's apparent that you don't want an objective discussion - that's fine

And I'd take Bush over Slaton right now. Slaton wouldn't deliver rushing yards effectively behind the Saints line.

Is he a better rusher than Bush right now? Yes.

Is he a better running back in the strictest sense - lining up in the I and able to deliver? Yes.

But Bush is not that kind of back.

He can be a dangerous offense.

I don't care how he gets the yards - running, catching, throwing - I just care that he does.

Leading the NFL in touchdowns?

I don't care how they come - I'll take it all day.

I think he's the 3rd best pick from the top 10 that year - behind Williams and Ferguson.

It kills y'all to see that Bush is a good player - nowhere near the hype - but just because his praise was premature and hyperbolic doesn't mean he's a bad player.

You claim you're over the pick?

I don't see it - and the same goes for most fans who post on here.

It's a case of "the lady doth protest too much methinks"

The only things more predictable on these forums than Reggie hate is VY hate.

Good luck Sunday

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 04:28 PM
myopia, as I said - shortsightedness

You have no idea what either player's career will be like at the end. This is a discussion that's entirely premature.

So I think it's offbase and ridiculous to start talking about what either player's career is going to look like a decade from now and using that supposition as some sort of indisputibe evidence is foolish and, yes, ridiculous

If prognostication = fact, then what's the use of even playing?

It's apparent that you don't want an objective discussion - that's fine

And I'd take Bush over Slaton right now. Slaton wouldn't deliver rushing yards effectively behind the Saints line.

Is he a better rusher than Bush right now? Yes.

Is he a better running back in the strictest sense - lining up in the I and able to deliver? Yes.

But Bush is not that kind of back.

He can be a dangerous offense.

I don't care how he gets the yards - running, catching, throwing - I just care that he does.

Leading the NFL in touchdowns?

I don't care how they come - I'll take it all day.

I think he's the 3rd best pick from the top 10 that year - behind Williams and Ferguson.

It kills y'all to see that Bush is a good player - nowhere near the hype - but just because his praise was premature and hyperbolic doesn't mean he's a bad player.

You claim you're over the pick?

I don't see it - and the same goes for most fans who post on here.

It's a case of "the lady doth protest too much methinks"

The only things more predictable on these forums than Reggie hate is VY hate.

Good luck Sunday

First of all.......paragraphs please.

Second, I already said Bush is a good player, did you not read that or did you just purposely leave it out? Trust me buddy, I'm over the pick........well over the pick. His 2 punt returns last night didn't even bother me, I'm actually happy for him, it got uncomfortable watching everybody ride his jock when the guy couldn't even score a TD weeks into the season a couple of years ago, or everybody questioning his ability last year. I'm sure he's breathing a sigh of relief right now.....good for him.

As far as not being about to talk about how the careers are going to turn out.......I'm talking about if everybody stays healthy, if everybody stays healthy Mario is easily going to be the more effective player for a longer period, that's not even debatable.

The guy is double teamed on almost every pass rush and he has 4 sacks.......the Texans as a unit have 5, it just shows you how much of a monster Mario really is......he's our entire pass rush. He would be even more effective is the damn GM could find somebody to help draw attention on the other side. Right now we have 1 DE and 3 DTs. Trust me......I'm over the pick and don't give a damn about Reggie Bush. Mario Williams (with DeMeco Ryans) is the only star we have on the defensive side of the ball.

If Mario gets no sacks on Sundays........the Texans' defense gets no sacks on Sundays, but guess what we get plents of TDs and passing yards.

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 04:35 PM
Trust me buddy, I'm over the pick

well over the pick.

I'm actually happy for him

Trust me......I'm over the pick

don't give a damn about Reggie Bush

if you say so, but it sure doesn't look like it - but as I said before, "the lady doth protest too much methinks"

The only people I've seen talk more about Reggie than Texans fans are Saints fans.

Ranking groups who talk about Reggie the most:

1. Saints fans
2. Texans fans
3. the media (and they ride Reggie's jock far too much)
4. Yahoo.com's Jason Cole

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 04:46 PM
The only people I've seen talk more about Reggie than Texans fans are Saints fans.

Ranking groups who talk about Reggie the most:

1. Saints fans
2. Texans fans
3. the media (and they ride Reggie's jock far too much)
4. Yahoo.com's Jason Cole

If you want to blame someone for that, blame the media who has tried to grab Texan fans (and Mario on a bum foot during season 1) by the back of the head and rub their collective noses into the Reggie Bush dog shit.

Even last night Torny Kornhole made a comment on us passing on Reggie Bush and didn't even mention how both teams got excellent players or how we have a similar back in Slaton.

Texan fans are always going to talk about the subject and these players are always going to tied together until the media shuts the hell up about it. What get's me is how when Reggie wasn't doing so hot year one and Vince was.....then the talk switched from how stupid the Texans were from passing on Bush to how stupid the Texans were for passing on the hometown hero Vince Young.........they were just trying to run our team through the mud and honestly I've never seen a player (Mario) get so rediculed or a scenerio play out like that before........so again, don't tell Texan fans to stop talking about the subject, write ESPN and tell them to stop talking about it, they're the ones that need to get over it.

Texan_Bill
10-07-2008, 04:48 PM
Ranking groups who talk about Reggie the most:

1. Saints fans
2. Texans fans
3. the media (and they ride Reggie's jock far too much)
4. Yahoo.com's Jason Cole

1. makes sense - obviously
2. I wonder why that is??? I guess a big portion of that answer lies within #3. With all the crap we had to put up with through the media for not selecting Bush it becomes painfully obvious why we talk about him not being here - thankfully!!!
3. See #2. They rode his jock so hard - while trying to rub our noses in it..
4. Don't pay attention to Jason Cole - so I'll take your word for that.

*EDIT*

HA!!! Carr Bombed beat me to it.... .

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 04:54 PM
With all the crap we had to put up with through the media for not selecting Bush it becomes painfully obvious why we talk about him not being here - thankfully!!!

exactly my point - thanks to both for proving it

It's time to move on

Worrying this much about what Bush does in his career can't make the game any more enjoyable - especially a winless team right now struggling

I hope you right the ship sooner than later

I've never wished the Texans ill. You guys had your guts ripped out when the Oilers left - everytime I hear the mention of New Orleans relocating it makes me sick to my stomach.

No city's fans should ever have to go through that.

You deserve better.

I mean no disrespect - but I'll put it this way: as tired as y'all get of hearing about Bush from the media - that's how tiresome it is logging on here to check on my second favorite and second hometown team and seeing this unhealthy obsession.

If that makes sense

Chicagotexan1
10-07-2008, 06:01 PM
exactly my point - thanks to both for proving it

It's time to move on

Worrying this much about what Bush does in his career can't make the game any more enjoyable - especially a winless team right now struggling

I hope you right the ship sooner than later

I've never wished the Texans ill. You guys had your guts ripped out when the Oilers left - everytime I hear the mention of New Orleans relocating it makes me sick to my stomach.

No city's fans should ever have to go through that.

You deserve better.

I mean no disrespect - but I'll put it this way: as tired as y'all get of hearing about Bush from the media - that's how tiresome it is logging on here to check on my second favorite and second hometown team and seeing this unhealthy obsession.

If that makes sense

Your weak little Jedi mind trick failed. Reggie Bush is not a great running back. He's average at best, at least right now he is and that's what we should measure him by. He's a good WR and a good KR, but that's not what he was expected to be. That is not why he was drafted second overall. This is like saying VY is a great runner, problem is he is a QB and that entails a little bit more than running and I think even Wonderlich Boy sees that now.

gg no re
10-07-2008, 06:01 PM
I see the argument.

I fail to see the "validity"
If you can see the argument, I don't know how to can't see the validity. It's either a valid argument, or it's a crazed assertion.

Besides, you know that without Drew Brees, everyone on the Saints offense outside of Deuce IS nothing.

Brando
10-07-2008, 06:04 PM
If you can see the argument, I don't know how to can't see the validity. It's either a valid argument, or it's a crazed assertion.

Besides, you know that without Drew Brees, everyone on the Saints offense outside of Deuce IS nothing.

Marques Colston is pretty good, unless of course you are talking about who played last night.:cool:

HJam72
10-07-2008, 06:08 PM
I haven't seen anyone on these boards talking about Reggie Bush since the last time we played the Saints, in which he looked bad by the way. This is the first time I've seen it, and it's only because you've started all this. Whatever, maybe he's doing much better since I last gave a crap, but I still don't.

Texecutioner
10-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Wonderlich Boy sees that now.

Wonderlich boy!???? Ah man, that was to funny and I'm a VY fan, I shouldn't be laughing at these kind of jokes, but that just sounded funny as hell. :spit:

RazorOye
10-07-2008, 06:13 PM
Reggie Bush is not a great running back.

and where, exactly, did I say he was?

If you can see the argument, I don't know how to can't see the validity. It's either a valid argument, or it's a crazed assertion.

nonsense - an argument can indeed be invalid and unsound, elementary debate or logic

but that's besides the point


Besides, you know that without Drew Brees, everyone on the Saints offense outside of Deuce IS nothing.

Marques Colston, Jeremy Shockey, Jahri Evans, and Jammal Brown beg to differ

It's apparent that you are so partisan and determined *not* to engage in a discussion that you've abandoned reason and sense

That's fine. It's apparent that you'd rather have an unadulterated Reggie Bush Bashfest without anyone checking your absurdity.

Have at it - the thread is yours.

Wolf
10-07-2008, 06:41 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Vwn-CNkUL._SS384_.jpg

gg no re
10-07-2008, 06:50 PM
Marques Colston, Jeremy Shockey, Jahri Evans, and Jammal Brown beg to differ

Marques Colston is a 7th round pick that, despite his amazing talent, probably could not have gotten his time in the light if he didn't have an established QB like Brees throwing to him.

Jeremy Shockey is a proven team cancer than contributes nothing.

Jahri Evans and Jammal Brown do fine on their own, but they're not the ones directly generating points and yardage.

It's fine to throw out examples, but they'd have to be valid examples.

For example, my title is an acronym. Yours is not. Unless board admins installed rookie just to specifically say "RazorOye Oye Koi Ewok Indigenous Escalator"

Texecutioner
10-07-2008, 07:00 PM
Jeremy Shockey is a proven team cancer than contributes nothing.

Finally someone else who sees that overrated pie hole for what he is. :chickendance:

Kaiser Toro
10-07-2008, 07:17 PM
The stat in question was this:

Bush had 194 career receptions
96 were caught behind the line of scrimmage
96 were caught 1-10 yards beyond the line of scrimmage
2 were caught over 10 yards from the line of scrimmage

So I am not a liar and I don't know it?

bah007
10-07-2008, 07:46 PM
Where the hell are you people getting this from.......Slaton was not a dancer in college......I am also a big WV fan, I wanted Slaton in the draft.......I watched Slaton in college, he ran in the same zone scheme we run here and he's not a dancer.

As far as reading souting reports, I haven't seen any that said he was a dancer in the backfield and if they do who cares, I watched him with my own eyes (the majority of his games......My family is originally from WV) here's some "tape" on him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5I2HVWlkk&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrm0idTUAq8&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUgvCtO_OME&feature=related&fmt=18

Where's all this dancing?

He's a one cut and go guy, it's probably the whole reason why Smith drafted him, I wouldn't be surprised if they targeted him from day 1 and said, this is the guy we have to get. He's made for this system, he knows this system, and he's kicking ass in this system. (especially for my fantasy team :cool:)

Yes I imagine that you wouln't see him dancing in the backfield getting stuffed in his youtube highlights.

Once again.....Slaton was a great one cut and go guy as a freshman and sophomore. No debate there.

But in his junior year, he struggled a little bit because he was trying to hit the home run on every play. In his first two years combined, he averaged 6.8 yards per carry.

As a junior he averaged 5.2 yards per carry.

He was still productive. But he was more hesitant in the backfield. I watched his games too. Just because I am not a WVU fan does not mean I don't know what I am talking about. In fact, it probably makes me less biased too.

In any case, as a Texan, Slaton has proved that he can be that one cut and go guy that we need. Kudos to him & congrats to you that a player you like got drafted to your pro team.

WWJD
10-07-2008, 08:23 PM
I think Reggie's a guy that can play great special teams and is useful in passing downs and that's about it.

I don't see anything great about him otherwise.

Certainly not worth where he was drafted.

bah007
10-07-2008, 08:43 PM
I think Reggie's a guy that can play great special teams and is useful in passing downs and that's about it.

I don't see anything great about him otherwise.

Certainly not worth where he was drafted.

I think that is what we all pretty much agree on.

Put Bush in space and he is very dangerous.

Hand it off to him and....not so much.

For what he adds to a team, he is not worth the kind of money he is getting.

But its not his fault that rookie contracts have become so incredibly ridiculous.

WWJD
10-07-2008, 09:18 PM
I think that is what we all pretty much agree on.

Put Bush in space and he is very dangerous.

Hand it off to him and....not so much.

For what he adds to a team, he is not worth the kind of money he is getting.

But its not his fault that rookie contracts have become so incredibly ridiculous.

Nope. I would sure have taken that money!

What happened to that brewing scandal about USC buying him a car and all that? I heard it..and then heard nothing more.

bah007
10-07-2008, 09:39 PM
I dont know anything about a car, but I do know remember something about a agent buying his parents a big house so Reggie would sign with him.

Reggie signed with him but then turned his back on him once he declared for the draft.

Then the spurned agent went to the NCAA.

I dont know if we'll ever learn the truth in all that.

Ryan
10-07-2008, 09:48 PM
Reggie Bush is like a god in PPR leagues in fantasy football, though.

I lost a 25 point lead last night in one of my leagues thanks to him. :brickwall:

Carr Bombed
10-07-2008, 11:08 PM
Yes I imagine that you wouln't see him dancing in the backfield getting stuffed in his youtube highlights.

Once again.....Slaton was a great one cut and go guy as a freshman and sophomore. No debate there.

But in his junior year, he struggled a little bit because he was trying to hit the home run on every play. In his first two years combined, he averaged 6.8 yards per carry.

As a junior he averaged 5.2 yards per carry.

He was still productive. But he was more hesitant in the backfield. I watched his games too. Just because I am not a WVU fan does not mean I don't know what I am talking about. In fact, it probably makes me less biased too.

In any case, as a Texan, Slaton has proved that he can be that one cut and go guy that we need. Kudos to him & congrats to you that a player you like got drafted to your pro team.

Reggie Bush dances in his highlight reels so that's not what it is.....if you're a NFL caliber player and you dance in the backfield you can still make big plays.......if he ran like that they would be on there.

Slaton struggled his Junior year, because defenses keyed in more to stop him, he added weight, and he was nicked up most of the season.........not because he "started dancing". RBs don't just change their style......Slaton had a bad year and starting losing carries to Devine, he lost a gear and wasn't explosive. Now it looks like the explosiveness is back........idk maybe it took awhile for his body to adjust to the added weight he put on.

Maddict5
10-11-2008, 06:00 PM
I guess I should explain since people get so knee jerk when they see Reggie's name they don't bother reading.

I said the Texans could use Bush. I did not say in place of Mario. I did not say in place of Slaton. I said they could use him.

==========================

In non-Reggie related news, Slaton's played four games. I know that Spencer was being voted into the pro bowl after a couple of pre-season quarters, but I think I'd like to see Steve continue the good work a while before assuming the running game is fixed for the next few years.

Note that the bolded part means that I know he is playing well.


in those 4 games, hes done alot of things that reggie hasnt in 3 yrs

jlam
10-12-2008, 09:11 PM
myopia, as I said - shortsightedness

You have no idea what either player's career will be like at the end. This is a discussion that's entirely premature.

So I think it's offbase and ridiculous to start talking about what either player's career is going to look like a decade from now and using that supposition as some sort of indisputibe evidence is foolish and, yes, ridiculous. To project and discuss is one thing. Using it as evidence to win an argument is absurd.

If prognostication = fact, then what's the use of even playing?

It's apparent that you don't want an objective discussion - that's fine

And I'd take Bush over Slaton right now. Slaton wouldn't deliver rushing yards effectively behind the Saints line.

Is he a better rusher than Bush right now? Yes.

Is he a better running back in the strictest sense - lining up in the I and able to deliver? Yes.

But Bush is not that kind of back.

He can be a dangerous offense.

I don't care how he gets the yards - running, catching, throwing - I just care that he does.

Leading the NFL in touchdowns?

I don't care how they come - I'll take it all day.

I think he's the 3rd best pick from the top 10 that year - behind Williams and Ferguson.

It kills y'all to see that Bush is a good player - nowhere near the hype - but just because his praise was premature and hyperbolic doesn't mean he's a bad player.

You claim you're over the pick?

I don't see it - and the same goes for most fans who post on here.

It's a case of "the lady doth protest too much methinks"

The only things more predictable on these forums than Reggie hate is VY hate.

Good luck Sunday

Peter Finney, is that you? idonno:

donato
10-12-2008, 09:21 PM
Bush- 8 TD's (leads the league)

Slaton- 4 TD's

Who cares how he scored them? Bush is one of the best players on the league's #1 ranked offense.

Runner
10-12-2008, 09:24 PM
Bush- 8 TD's (leads the league)

Slaton- 4 TD's

Who cares how he scored them? Bush is one of the best players on the league's #1 ranked offense.


Points are good. More points are better. :)

It isn't like he's taking a lot of points away from his teammates, either. That is one high octane offense.

donato
10-12-2008, 09:30 PM
He's on-pace for 637 yards rushing, 963 receiving, and 21 TD's. Not too shabby if you ask me.

edo783
10-12-2008, 11:48 PM
But is he worth 50 million dollars more than Slaton..........my answer is nope. He's a good receiver/KR, but a lousy RB. Put the 50 mill to work with 2-3 other quality players and you would wind up with a whole bunch more production.

donato
10-13-2008, 03:07 AM
But is he worth 50 million dollars more than Slaton..........my answer is nope. He's a good receiver/KR, but a lousy RB. Put the 50 mill to work with 2-3 other quality players and you would wind up with a whole bunch more production.

You mean like David Carr? That was money well spent.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2008, 07:26 AM
But is he worth 50 million dollars more than Slaton..........my answer is nope. He's a good receiver/KR, but a lousy RB. Put the 50 mill to work with 2-3 other quality players and you would wind up with a whole bunch more production.

Exactly.. Give me Slaton for running back, and I'll take Davis / Jones to return kicks for a fraction of the money..

gtexan02
10-13-2008, 08:08 AM
People have this unnatural hate for the guy. 1000 yards receiving and 600 yards rushing plus some return TDs to boot in one roster spot is better than the alternative in my opinion.

Just because he is doing well doesn't mean we picked wrong, though

nunusguy
10-13-2008, 08:19 AM
Little Reggie has 239 yards for a 3.1 average per rush. That ranks him #32
in the NFL. Slatons stats are 343 yards for 4.8 average ranking
him #18.
So Bush may be the better pass receiver and special teams player, but Slaton clearly the better back.

jlam
10-13-2008, 05:08 PM
I love it when NFL fans start using ecomomics to downplay an athlete's production, as if it means 1/100th of a s**t to them where the money is spent. Particularly when the team at hand is in nothing resembling a salary cap "situation".

How many of you would take Marques Colston over Andre Johnson? Show of hands?

The Pencil Neck
10-13-2008, 05:12 PM
How many of you would take Marques Colston over Andre Johnson? Show of hands?

:cricket:

dtran04
10-13-2008, 05:21 PM
If its Colston on a rookie contract plus a top flight corner with the money you saved, I would personally take that option over just a highly paid receiver.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2008, 05:41 PM
I love it when NFL fans start using ecomomics to downplay an athlete's production, as if it means 1/100th of a s**t to them where the money is spent. Particularly when the team at hand is in nothing resembling a salary cap "situation".

How many of you would take Marques Colston over Andre Johnson? Show of hands?

Economics are very important. We were in trouble with our cap after 4 or 5 years of C&C factory...

So, I pose the question by show of hands:

Who would rather have AJ over Colston? AND,

have both Slaton (4 years at $2.4 million) and Jacoby Jones (4 years at $2.2 million) versus one Reggie Bush at 6 years $60+ million???

For the cost, I will take Slaton and Jones and $55 million more to spend on a whole bunch more players over the next 6 years... but that's me. I think about economics.

Second Honeymoon
10-13-2008, 05:48 PM
I love it when NFL fans start using ecomomics to downplay an athlete's production, as if it means 1/100th of a s**t to them where the money is spent. Particularly when the team at hand is in nothing resembling a salary cap "situation".

How many of you would take Marques Colston over Andre Johnson? Show of hands?

great point Jlam. reggie has done right by yall and all this nonsense about him having to be a 'between the tackles' RB to justify the pick is just ludicrous and when you put money into the equation its even more ludicrous.

reggie is a great playmaker and opens up things for other people on the field. people can piss and moan about that, but its a fact. he is the perfect back for NO's offense and everyone talks so great about Deuce but he can't run between the tackles effectively either in this offense.

Pounding your chest about a guy you have 'on the cheap' is a fleeting fancy as well. It's not as if having Slaton on our squad over Bush has helped us sign other players because of their inequal pay. It's not as if its saved us from salary cap hell. We all know Uncle Bob doesn't dare go over that salary cap and spend the big $$ unless its to overpay for total freaking losers like Carr.

Reggie is a very good player and he just makes plays. He wins games for you with his playmaking ability but some people would rather split hairs and act like the Texans are in such better shape for passing on him....haterade is in effect in Houston. There is no problem with feeling Mario is a better fit for the Texans but that isn't a knock on Bush...that is just how it is. DEs that can dominate and demand double teams are generally more valuable than RBs. Just don't act like Bush sucks or isn't worth an early pick. Any player that can change a game like him, is worth an early pick...just like Mario is worth an early pick.

Second Honeymoon
10-13-2008, 05:52 PM
Economics are very important. We were in trouble with our cap after 4 or 5 years of C&C factory...

So, I pose the question by show of hands:

Who would rather have AJ over Colston? AND,

have both Slaton (4 years at $2.4 million) and Jacoby Jones (4 years at $2.2 million) versus one Reggie Bush at 6 years $60+ million???

For the cost, I will take Slaton and Jones and $55 million more to spend on a whole bunch more players over the next 6 years... but that's me. I think about economics.

we have never been in salary cap trouble. ever. the salary cap has never stopped us from getting anyone that we wanted or coveted in FA nor has it stopped us from resigning anyone that we wanted to retain. the salary cap is a soft cap anyway and if you do get in trouble you just franchise tag, renegotiate existing deals, or put the transition tag in order to recoup draft compensation for departing FAs. The bottom line is that we havent drafted/signed/developed enough good players of our own to matter anyway. Bob doesn't spend the big $$. He already has his sellouts and after all, Bob said the market has hurt him and his partners and it may be time to 'cut expenses'. Whatever excuse works for you, Bob.

If you can't afford to spend the $$ to put a competitive product on the field...sell the freaking team.

Texan_Bill
10-13-2008, 06:04 PM
we have never been in salary cap trouble. ever. the salary cap has never stopped us from getting anyone that we wanted or coveted in FA nor has it stopped us from resigning anyone that we wanted to retain. the salary cap is a soft cap anyway and if you do get in trouble you just franchise tag, renegotiate existing deals, or put the transition tag in order to recoup draft compensation for departing FAs. The bottom line is that we havent drafted/signed/developed enough good players of our own to matter anyway. Bob doesn't spend the big $$. He already has his sellouts and after all, Bob said the market has hurt him and his partners and it may be time to 'cut expenses'. Whatever excuse works for you, Bob.

If you can't afford to spend the $$ to put a competitive product on the field...sell the freaking team.

at one point this franchise had over $25million in dead money and under as little as $10million within the cap. Unfortunately one of my favorite sites is gone with all that old, valuable information. At no point did I say we were over the cap.

Besides the above, that has nothing to do with the point of this thread. I would still spend the money on Slaton and Jones everyday over one over-hyped Bush. $60+ million for a returner and a slot receiver is waaaaaaaay too much.

But hey, it just another opportunity for you to take a cheap shot at McNair. Whatever floats your boat and all that jazz......


*puts back on ignore*

donato
10-13-2008, 06:32 PM
The Saints are #4 in the league in scoring (28.7 while first place has only one point more per game at 29.7). Bush leads the team in scoring, of course Brees is a HUGE reason.The Texans are #24 in scoring at 22.4 points per game. Furthermore the Saints have arguably the most explosive offense in the league considering the injuries and limited play by Deuce, Colston and Shockey. When they get healthy they may be unstoppable on offense. All three losses the Saints had they shot themselves in the foot, but I'd be willing to bet they'll make the playoffs. We're not going to sniff the playoffs. Saints are scoring a TD a game more than us. I'm not saying Mario isn't great, but the Slaton vs. Bush talk is ludicrous. Bush is clearly worth the money.

Second Honeymoon
10-13-2008, 09:13 PM
at one point this franchise had over $25million in dead money and under as little as $10million within the cap. Unfortunately one of my favorite sites is gone with all that old, valuable information. At no point did I say we were over the cap.

Besides the above, that has nothing to do with the point of this thread. I would still spend the money on Slaton and Jones everyday over one over-hyped Bush. $60+ million for a returner and a slot receiver is waaaaaaaay too much.

But hey, it just another opportunity for you to take a cheap shot at McNair. Whatever floats your boat and all that jazz......


*puts back on ignore*

cheap shot? its just facts. having dead money is no excuse to not go out and get players. just because you had a moron running things and made a lot of bad FA deals, doesn't mean you stop trying or go to the 'cut expenses' card like McNair seems to be doing.

If McNair is just providing an NFL team and isn't trying to build a championship-caliber team, then he needs to say that and let everyone know up front. You can not be successful in the NFL unless you spend the $$ and take chances in Free Agency AND draft well. It's nearly impossible to 'build from within' totally because by the time you have groomed enough players, other teams are stealing them away or making you overpay to keep them.

Justin Smith could have been had. They dropped the ball and stayed the course. You put Smith and Mario on opposite sides of the DL and you help out the whole unit. The fact that Weaver is still collecting a paycheck is indicting in of itself. You cut Weaver and sign Smith if you want to improve your team.

Insideop
10-15-2008, 04:04 PM
So he could sit behind Slaton.......what you need to ask yourself is why Kubiak won't pull his head out of his ass and let Slaton return kicks (he needs to give Slaton as many touches as he can) instead of that overrated dumbass that goes by the name of Jacoby Jones. (the guy hasn't made a play in over a year and shouldn't have even made the damn team......but Kubiak and Smith are trying to save face for the third they wasted on him)

Slaton could've easily returned that punt as well.....horrible punt coverage + excellent blocking = skate to the endzone untouched.

I hope you don't feel the same about Jacoby this week as you felt about him last week.

That TD on the punt return ignited the whole team. I've been waiting for it to happen just like a lot of other people have. Jacoby is young and I think he was too immature mentally to handle the NFL last year, especially after he got hurt. I'm hoping, with this TD, that he is finally turning the corner. And also, I'm hoping the same for the team since they got this win. JMHO! :texflag:

nunusguy
10-19-2008, 02:47 PM
Little Reggie just got knocked out of the Carolina game with a bum knee
while his sidekick at USC, LenDale White, proved he's both Lighning & Thunder with a 80 yard TD run vs the Chiefs. And 149 rushing and counting for the game.
I dunno, but Bush was pretty good vs High-School/Pac-10 competition but the NFL has proved a different kind of challenge for him.

CloakNNNdagger
10-20-2008, 07:05 PM
BUSH HAS TORN MEDIAL MENISCUS PFT
Posted by Mike Florio on October 20, 2008, 1:06 p.m.

A league source tells us that Saints running back Reggie Bush underwent arthroscopic on Monday to repair a torn medial meniscus in his knee.

Dr. James Andrews of Birmingham performed the surgery.

The normal recovery time is two-to-four weeks. However, we’re told there’s a chance that Bush will be out of action longer than that, in order to ensure that the knee is fully healed (or, more correctly, as healed as it’s going to be) before Bush returns to action.

The medial meniscus and the lateral meniscus are the two primary shock absorbers in the knee. Torn pieces of the cartilage are surgically removed, since the loose material can affect significantly the performance of the joint.

The only problem is that cartilage doesn’t repair itself or regenerate. And so once enough of it is gone, the player has bone-on-bone contact in the knee.

The beginning of the .........................how many times have we seen this?

nunusguy
10-21-2008, 07:43 AM
BUSH HAS TORN MEDIAL MENISCUS PFT
Posted by Mike Florio on October 20, 2008, 1:06 p.m.



The beginning of the .........................how many times have we seen this?
OK get ready for a really dumb question from someone who obviously knows nothing about these things ?
Given all the medical miracles we see and read about, including literally manufacturing human organs, seems like it would be a relatively minor trick to fabricate some of this cartilage tissue and implant it into the injured joint ?
And remember, I warned you it was going to be really dumb.

HJam72
10-21-2008, 07:49 AM
OK get ready for a really dumb question from someone who obviously knows nothing about these things ?
Given all the medical miracles we see and read about, including literally manufacturing human organs, seems like it would be a relatively minor trick to fabricate some of this cartilage tissue and implant it into the injured joint ?
And remember, I warned you it was going to be really dumb.

I don't think it's dumb at all, but it sounds more like a question of WHEN it will start happening. Granted, Pop. Sci. readership is my only "qualification" for even replying, lol.

HJam72
10-21-2008, 07:53 AM
One thing I will admit is that those commercials thanking Houston for NOT picking him ticked me off. I'm probably biased against the jerk.

TexansSeminole
10-21-2008, 08:15 AM
The Saints are #4 in the league in scoring (28.7 while first place has only one point more per game at 29.7). Bush leads the team in scoring, of course Brees is a HUGE reason.The Texans are #24 in scoring at 22.4 points per game. Furthermore the Saints have arguably the most explosive offense in the league considering the injuries and limited play by Deuce, Colston and Shockey. When they get healthy they may be unstoppable on offense. All three losses the Saints had they shot themselves in the foot, but I'd be willing to bet they'll make the playoffs. We're not going to sniff the playoffs. Saints are scoring a TD a game more than us. I'm not saying Mario isn't great, but the Slaton vs. Bush talk is ludicrous. Bush is clearly worth the money.

The Saints are not the most explosive team in the league on offense.

Brees is the guy that makes that offense. Bush is just a weapon. I think Bush can be a great receiver in the nfl but only a decent RB. Worth the money? That must be a joke.

The Pencil Neck
10-21-2008, 12:09 PM
OK get ready for a really dumb question from someone who obviously knows nothing about these things ?
Given all the medical miracles we see and read about, including literally manufacturing human organs, seems like it would be a relatively minor trick to fabricate some of this cartilage tissue and implant it into the injured joint ?
And remember, I warned you it was going to be really dumb.

One thing I've learned over the years is that if you're not an expert in a field (or at least, know something about it) things that look like they'd be easy are really very hard and things that look like they'd be very hard are frequently pretty easy. People I work with frequently ask for things that are almost impossible (because it seems easy to them) and then turn around and think I'm a miracle worker when I do something very simple and easy.

Now, this isn't my field Cloak would obviously be the one to answer. But...

From what I've heard, they've only recently worked out ways to "grow" cartilage. It's still experimental. In a few years, we'll probably be doing what you're talking about (or at least some variation of it.)

Texecutioner
10-21-2008, 12:36 PM
I hope you don't feel the same about Jacoby this week as you felt about him last week.

That TD on the punt return ignited the whole team. I've been waiting for it to happen just like a lot of other people have. Jacoby is young and I think he was too immature mentally to handle the NFL last year, especially after he got hurt. I'm hoping, with this TD, that he is finally turning the corner. And also, I'm hoping the same for the team since they got this win. JMHO! :texflag:

I'll second Carr Bombed's notions. If Jacoby's one KR in a year and half is all it takes for you to have a ton of confidence in the guy at this point, then that is pretty gullible. Jacoby hasn't made any plays other than that. He hasn't been a good KR at all. I wouldn't criticize him for only having one KR if he consistently put the Texans in good field position, but he doesn't even do that. Did you see his KR's last week? He has terrible vision in finding the quick hole to burst through, and look at the fumbles from pre season as well? If Slaton weren't needed to run the ball like he is, I'd rather have Slaton returning kicks.

Runner
10-21-2008, 02:27 PM
The Saints are not the most explosive team in the league on offense.

Brees is the guy that makes that offense. Bush is just a weapon. I think Bush can be a great receiver in the nfl but only a decent RB. Worth the money? That must be a joke.

Brees's and the offense's numbers certainly plummeted with Bush out Sunday. We'll see what happens over the next few weeks.

IMO Brees is a fine QB, but Reggie is the straw that stirs the drink in New Orleans.

GP
10-21-2008, 02:48 PM
One thing I will admit is that those commercials thanking Houston for NOT picking him ticked me off. I'm probably biased against the jerk.

We should produce our own commercial, thanking Bob McNair for NOT drafting Reggie Bush and Vince Young.

And then cap it off with all of Mario's sacks and tackles played in fast-forward, with the last one a sack (slowed down to regular speed) where Mario jumps up into the air and does the Strahan basketball jump-shot move.

Spled
10-21-2008, 04:44 PM
Is Bush's injury different than Domanick Williams?

Texan_Bill
10-21-2008, 05:26 PM
Is Bush's injury different than Domanick Williams?

IIRC DDW's was degenerative. I don't beleive that Bush's is..

CloakNNNdagger
10-21-2008, 08:07 PM
One thing I've learned over the years is that if you're not an expert in a field (or at least, know something about it) things that look like they'd be easy are really very hard and things that look like they'd be very hard are frequently pretty easy. People I work with frequently ask for things that are almost impossible (because it seems easy to them) and then turn around and think I'm a miracle worker when I do something very simple and easy.

Now, this isn't my field Cloak would obviously be the one to answer. But...

From what I've heard, they've only recently worked out ways to "grow" cartilage. It's still experimental. In a few years, we'll probably be doing what you're talking about (or at least some variation of it.)

You did pretty well, there, TPN. To date, there is nothing proven to get a bone on bone knee effectively regenerated with new cartilage. Microfracture (simply drilling micro hole into the bone) is often used on its own to stimulate cartilage growth, but the new cartilage is not the same as the type normally found in the joint. Researchers have begun adding a gel called CarGel to the procedure which is injected into the microfacture drill holes which when mixed with the blood within the marrow has resulted in more normal cartilage production. The amount of cartilage produced though is limited and may not stand up to football conditions. The newest research is gathered around culturing cartilage cells and transplanting them. But how much will survive transplantation and how it stands up to the severe trauma expected to be encountered in situations such as football are still a great question mark.

To sum it up, at this time, preservation should be the goal rather than letting it get to the point of having to even entertain reconstruction. In other words, don't run good players into the ground. Don't kill the goose that lays golden eggs.

CloakNNNdagger
10-23-2008, 07:41 AM
Follow up information:

*New Orleans Saints running back Reggie Bush underwent surgery on his left knee Monday following an injury suffered during a punt return in Sunday's 30-7 loss to the Carolina Panthers. "He has been a big part of what we have been able to do offensively and it's an injury that we have to deal with," said head coach Sean Payton. "Hopefully on a short-term basis rather than a long-term basis, and it sounds like that's the case." It's unclear when the will be back with the team. Bush sustained cartilage damage, and some athletes have missed several months because of surgery to repair similar injuries. Aaron Stecker or Pierre Thomas will be called on to play alongside Deuce McAllister in the backfield.

[LINK] (http://www.eurweb.com/story/eur48015.cfm)

nunusguy
12-12-2008, 06:01 PM
USC football Coach Pete Carroll will be the subject of a CBS "60 Minutes" segment Sunday between 7 and 8 p.m. The piece was done by former Ohio Wesleyan football player Byron Pitts.

Carroll said Thursday that he was "a little nervous" about how he would be portrayed. Pitts said it was made clear to Carroll that while much of the focus would be on the work Carroll does with inner city gangs, questions would be asked about the NCAA investigation into Reggie Bush and any possible NCAA violations that may have occurred.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2008/12/pete-carroll-an.html

Dread-Head
12-12-2008, 07:37 PM
I thought White was better than Bush at USC personally...but that's just me.

bah007
12-12-2008, 09:40 PM
I thought White was better than Bush at USC personally...but that's just me.

Better running back for sure.

Better all-around player?.....I wouldn't say so.

Kaiser Toro
12-13-2008, 09:38 AM
I thought White was better than Bush at USC personally...but that's just me.

I wanted White and felt he would be the better football player, and be more of value than Bush in the NFL. To date, there is no value in Bush with his contract on the field.

kastofsna
12-13-2008, 10:19 AM
Bush definitely did a lot more things at USC than White

b0ng
12-13-2008, 10:55 AM
Reading back through this entire thread I wonder if the people who said that Bush is better than Slaton still think that. I don't think they would. Also, Bush proved this year that the Saints don't need him on the field to score massive amounts of points.

Also, extrapolating numbers that you get 3 games into the season all the way out to the end makes it look retarded. Where is the guy that said Bush was on pace to have a 1,000 yard rushing season with 700 yards receiving and 21 touchdowns. What's his pace now?

And last but certainly not least, while I may be viewed as a guy who is "hating" on Bush, the fact is if the Texans had drafted him, all the fans would be really pissed off right now with his production. Even in a great offense that has a pretty good offensive line (Pierre Thomas is a much better RB than Bush in terms of carrying the ball), A great WR and some good compliments, Bush is still largely unnoticeable. Maybe his 4th season will be his bouce-back season, but right now, all signs are pointing to "mediocre and injury prone".

But RazorOye and jlam, you guys are good posters, and I would expect nothing less from you than to defend one of your players on another teams board. You guys generally have good opinions on the entire NFL, and you make pretty good posts. Texans fans are always going to point at Bush and laugh because of how long we had to endure being called idiots because of us not drafting him. Also, whoever said that the Texans drafted Sam Bowie needs to lose their press credentials immediately.

Carr Bombed
12-13-2008, 11:22 AM
Reading back through this entire thread I wonder if the people who said that Bush is better than Slaton still think that. I don't think they would.

I wasn't one of those people......(everybody went goo goo over two punt returns). I thought it was crazy people were saying Bush was better than Slaton then and still do know. Also not only do I question Bush's ability to be a quality "runningback" in this league, I now have to question his ability to stay healthy. Seems every year his knee gets banged up, first big Deuce now him......is there something wrong with that turf?

nunusguy
12-13-2008, 12:59 PM
In less than a complete season Steve Slaton here with the Texans and Chris Johnson in Tennessee, both comparable to Bush in terms of being versatile & very fast but smallish backs, have done more to establish themselves as NFL running backs than Bush has done in nearly 3 full years of trying. And Bush
was the second player taken in his Draft while Johnson was drafted in the second half of the first round of this Draft while Slaton surprisingly lasted until the third round.

ZX758
12-13-2008, 01:11 PM
I wasn't for the Bush or the VY pick. I was for trading down, and still picking up Williams for less, and I still think that's the BEST choice. NO wouldn't have picked Williams over bush.

Carr Bombed
12-13-2008, 01:15 PM
I wasn't for the Bush or the VY pick. I was for trading down, and still picking up Williams for less, and I still think that's the BEST choice. NO wouldn't have picked Williams over bush.

No.......but the team we would've traded down with would have taken Bush #1 (Bush was the slam dunk consensus #1 pick, which was why Houston got bashed for passing on him). Which means Bush wouldn't be available at #2 for NOLA to take and they already had Brees and needed Defensive help. (Dline help, when everybody thought we were going to take Bush, Williams was already slotted by every expert to be the next player off the board) So no, it would be impossible to trade down and still get Williams....this topic was actually much discussed before.

RazorOye
12-14-2008, 09:10 PM
Maybe his 4th season will be his bouce-back season, but right now, all signs are pointing to "mediocre and injury prone".


The "injury prone" part is what concerns me.

He's better than mediocre and looked really, really solid the last couple of games before he tweaked his knee again. Two games ago he averaged 8.0 ypc and last game 6.0 ypc (iirc). Personally, I like Reggie Bush and I think the Saints offense is better with him in the game. The last couple of games - since the TB debacle - PT and Bush looked like they made a good tandem. It brought back visions of 2006 when Deuce was carrying the carrying load and Bush was moved around the offensive side of the ball.

But his injuries and durability bother me.

The "price tag" issue that I see thrown around on here nonsensically aside, I want to see him on the field.

I am beginning to wonder about the Saints training staff and that's a genuine concern for me. Look at our IR this year and how many games were missed by starters. It's absurd. We are on our 4th - 6th CBs on the depth chart. It's a mess. They bungled the Shockey sports hernia injury.

There have been too many injuries this year for me to write it off as simply bad voodoo.

Something is amiss in the team's training regime and I don't know what it is.

But Bush HAS to be healthier and he HAS to be more durable. I think he's stronger than the glass cannon some people make him out to be - but I want to see him prove it.

When healthy, I really liked what I saw from him this year - especially in tandem with PT and Payton running the ball more. I really was encouraged. So his health is my primary concern right now - his ability and potential is moot if he can't stay on the damn field.

As for the price - I see all of these comparisons to how much he costs vs Slaton. It's ridiculous. Initial contracts are based on draft slot and subsequent contracts on performance. If Slaton continues to perform at this level, do you think he's going to work for the same pay as he's making right now? Hardly.

I just hate the complete abandonment of reason and objectivity that pervades the Reggie hate on here sometimes. And no, I didn't read your post as Reggie hate in the least - it was a reasonable take, imo. Whether or not I agree with it, it was grounded in something more than this obsession that some people have here with Bush.

nunusguy
12-17-2008, 12:57 PM
NEW ORLEANS — Running back Reggie Bush will miss the final two games of the New Orleans Saints' season.

Bush injured his left knee during the Saints' loss at Chicago last Thursday night. The knee was examined over the weekend and coach Sean Payton said at practice on Wednesday the team decided to put Bush on injured reserve.

Bush rushed for 404 yards and two touchdowns, caught 52 passes for 440 yards and four TDs, and scored three touchdowns on punt runbacks this season

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6169584.html

Hervoyel
12-17-2008, 01:08 PM
As for the price - I see all of these comparisons to how much he costs vs Slaton. It's ridiculous. Initial contracts are based on draft slot and subsequent contracts on performance. If Slaton continues to perform at this level, do you think he's going to work for the same pay as he's making right now? Hardly.



Well, the price is a valid point. Of course Slaton is going to want a pay raise to bring his salary up to the level of his play. Do you think Reggie is going to be real receptive to a pay cut to get his salary in line with his production? Doubtful.

Say we tell Slaton at the end of this year that we'll talk to him about a long-term deal. We got this year at his 3rd rounder price and will be paying for production. More likely we see the Texans tell him we'll renegotiate following 2009 or so. Either way it beats paying top dollar for 3 years while getting the kind of numbers that Bush has put out.

Dread-Head
12-17-2008, 01:47 PM
Backs rarely have a great deal of longevity in the NFL.

RazorOye
12-17-2008, 03:46 PM
Well, the price is a valid point. Of course Slaton is going to want a pay raise to bring his salary up to the level of his play. Do you think Reggie is going to be real receptive to a pay cut to get his salary in line with his production? Doubtful.

Say we tell Slaton at the end of this year that we'll talk to him about a long-term deal. We got this year at his 3rd rounder price and will be paying for production. More likely we see the Texans tell him we'll renegotiate following 2009 or so. Either way it beats paying top dollar for 3 years while getting the kind of numbers that Bush has put out.

the market will decide the fates of both is my point - if you lock Slaton down before he hits the market, that's great. But it probably won't be cheap. Just because you'd sign him early through renegotiating doesn't mean he'll work for minimum wage. That's my point, regardless of when he signs. And that goes for either player. The market will decide.

The market doesn't decide initial contracts - draft slot does. Also my point.

Is Slaton the better bang for the buck thus far? Where did you see me contradict that? Not my point.

ChampionTexan
12-17-2008, 03:55 PM
the market will decide the fates of both is my point - if you lock Slaton down before he hits the market, that's great. But it probably won't be cheap. Just because you'd sign him early through renegotiating doesn't mean he'll work for minimum wage. That's my point, regardless of when he signs. And that goes for either player. The market will decide.

The market doesn't decide initial contracts - draft slot does. Also my point.

Is Slaton the better bang for the buck thus far? Where did you see me contradict that? Not my point.


Okay, if you want expensive, how about the fact that selecting Reggie Bush cost the Saints the ability to select any other player in the 2006 draft, and if the Texans had selected him, the cost would have been Mario Williams.

When you look at the cost to the Saints, and the potential cost to the Texans, it's pretty silly to say that Bush didn't cost the Saints far more than Steve Slaton cost the Texans - and had he been the #1 pick for us in 2006, he would have cost us even more than he cost the Saints.

Ole Miss Texan
12-17-2008, 05:19 PM
Well, the price is a valid point. Of course Slaton is going to want a pay raise to bring his salary up to the level of his play. Do you think Reggie is going to be real receptive to a pay cut to get his salary in line with his production? Doubtful.

Say we tell Slaton at the end of this year that we'll talk to him about a long-term deal. We got this year at his 3rd rounder price and will be paying for production. More likely we see the Texans tell him we'll renegotiate following 2009 or so. Either way it beats paying top dollar for 3 years while getting the kind of numbers that Bush has put out.

the market will decide the fates of both is my point - if you lock Slaton down before he hits the market, that's great. But it probably won't be cheap. Just because you'd sign him early through renegotiating doesn't mean he'll work for minimum wage. That's my point, regardless of when he signs. And that goes for either player. The market will decide.

The market doesn't decide initial contracts - draft slot does. Also my point.

Is Slaton the better bang for the buck thus far? Where did you see me contradict that? Not my point.

Bush-7/29/2006: Signed a six-year, $52.5 million contract. The deal contains $26.31 million guaranteed, including a $12.5 million option bonus in the second year and $9.5 million in incentives. 2008: $1.55 million, 2009: $2.225 million (+ $4 million roster bonus), 2010: $2.9 million, 2011: $3.575 million, 2012: Free Agent

Slaton-7/21/2008: Signed a four-year, $2.370 million contract. The deal included a $664,500 signing bonus. 2008: $295,000, 2009: $385,000, 2010: $470,000, 2011: $555,000, 2012: Free Agent

Slaton is making next to nothing (compared to NFL salaries) this year. Reggie is making more than twice the $ this season than Slaton's entire 4 year contract. Sure Slaton will ask to renegotiate his deal but that doesn't take away the "savings" from this year for the Texans... possibly even next year.

Additionally, as noted in the above post, the cost of draft pick is a huge factor. Not in financial terms but rather the cost of players available to upgrade your team at other positions.

Note- I'm not one of the fans saying Bush sucks but only stating some facts & opinions.

nunusguy
12-17-2008, 07:55 PM
Bush-7/29/2006: Signed a six-year, $52.5 million contract. The deal contains $26.31 million guaranteed, including a $12.5 million option bonus in the second year and $9.5 million in incentives. 2008: $1.55 million, 2009: $2.225 million (+ $4 million roster bonus), 2010: $2.9 million, 2011: $3.575 million, 2012: Free Agent


While his salary stays the same in 2008, he'll see a marginal increase in 2009 ($2.2 million to $2.6 million) before making a huge jump from $2.9 million to $8.0 million in 2010. And in 2011, he will receive $11.8 million in salary instead of the $3.575 million that was in his original contract. In addition to the $4 million signing bonus, which adds an extra million dollars to the Saints cap hit for each of the remaining four years, Bush will still have the opportunity to earn $1.5 million in NLTBE bonuses. And he can earn $800,000 more in 2011. But all other NLTBE bonuses have been eliminated.
http://profootball.scout.com/2/777697.html
************************************************** *******
Bush negotiated another contract with the Saints at the beginning of this season which appears to have new and improved terms. They seem to love him there in NOLA ?

RazorOye
12-17-2008, 09:09 PM
When you look at the cost to the Saints, and the potential cost to the Texans, it's pretty silly to say that Bush didn't cost the Saints far more than Steve Slaton cost the Texans

where did I say that?

Slaton is making next to nothing (compared to NFL salaries) this year. Reggie is making more than twice the $ this season than Slaton's entire 4 year contract. Sure Slaton will ask to renegotiate his deal but that doesn't take away the "savings" from this year for the Texans... possibly even next year.

What does that have to do with my point?

My point is the following:

The contracts that were signed and negotiated by Bush and Slaton, respectively, have nothing to do with what they've done on the field. Why? Because they had - to that point - done nothing on the field.

It was based on where they were drafted.

I'll give another example. Marquest Colston was an absolute steal for the Saints in the 7th round. We got more for our money than New England's 2nd round pick at WR, Chad Jackson.

It's the way it works.

I don't know how or why this is trying to be turned into me defending Reggie's cost or me saying he's worth the money or that he's been just as much of a bargain for the Saints as Slaton has been for the Texans.

I even pointed out what I think is obvious - so far, Slaton - certainly financially and arguably performatively - has been the wiser pick in terms of team investiture.

That's a compliment. From a Saints fan. To the Texan organization.

I don't understand the irrational tendency of much of this board to turn every Saints fan into some drooling, monosyllabic Reggie fanatic devoid of reason and logic and every Reggie post by a Saints fan into something akin to unadulterated praise.

That has NOTHING to do with the point that I was trying to make.

Yes, Slaton has been much more value.

But their contracts are a product of where they were drafted. And there will be no coupon for the Texans when it comes time to re-up. He's going to make more money, commensurate with his performance and what the market establishes.

That's a fact of NFL contract negotiation. It's not about Reggie vs. Slaton or Saints vs. Texans or whatever vs. whoever.

I just don't know how I can explain it more straightforward than I have.

The Saints lucked out with Colston and he was a bargain the first couple of years. Same with Jahri Evans - who we will have to pay this offseason to keep on our OLine.

The Texans lucked out with Slaton. And if they want to keep him, it will cost more money than he is making now.

I just assumed that was obvious enough that it wouldn't become such a point of contention. But just like everything else that is tangentially related to anything Reggie Bush, it will necessarily become absurd.

And I, of course, count my own contributions to that absurdity.

I really should know better by now.

kastofsna
12-18-2008, 07:26 AM
i don't think anyone is arguing any of your points. it's just simple math: Slaton is far more of a value than Bush right now, and Bush, at his best, still isn't worth the contract he signed. the draft position is sort of irrelevant to what most folks are saying around here.

Texan_Bill
12-18-2008, 07:42 AM
The only reason we compare the value of a Steve Slaton v. Reggie Bush is because of the amount of media crap we had to listen to for not selecting Bush #1. Reggie himself took a shot at Houston in that commercial after being drafted with the Saints. If not for that s**t storm, I doubt any of us would give a damn about the rats azz!! He would be less relevant than he already is.

Spled
12-18-2008, 08:03 AM
Who could forget the hype on draft day? Marshall Faulk except more explosive?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVEHhQ5wTC8

Wolf
01-08-2009, 06:27 PM
There is something wrong with Reggie Bush. Well, we have known since October that the onetime top pick of the New Orleans Saints has suffered from knee injuries the sidelined him for the bulk of the 2008 season. However, today our understanding of the extent of Reggie Bush’s knee injuries just became a little bit clearer, while our understanding of the future for the star tailback just become clouded.

The New Orleans Saints admitted today in a phone call that Reggie Bush underwent a microfracture surgery procedure on his left knee. The surgery took place in mid-December shortly after the Saints back was placed on injury reserve due to lingering problems in the knee. The microfracture surgery will sideline Bush for several months as he works to rehab the injured knee. Saints officials are hoping that Reggie Bush will be healthy enough to play come mini-camp in June.


http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Article:Reggie_Bush_has_Knee_Surgery%2C_and_We_Ask _is_he_a_Bust%3F

LonerATO
01-08-2009, 10:45 PM
hate on me if you want but this thread has run its course like our first qb. we have a kick ass runningback and made the right choice in mario