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View Full Version : Ed Hochuli is very frowny after the disaster in Denver


Wolf
09-17-2008, 01:57 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Ed-Hochuli-is-very-frowny-after-the-disaster-in-?urn=nfl,108018

According to NFL supervisor of officials Mike Pereira, Ed Hochuli is "devastated" at what went down in Denver on Sunday. If you missed it, Hochuli made an inexplicable mental gaffe--I won't call it a "blown call" or "missed call" because I think it goes a little beyond that--that almost directly cost the Chargers a loss against the Broncos.

From Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union Tribune:

No one, it appears, is taking the mistake and its ramifications harder than Hochuli.

"He's devastated," said Mike Pereira, the NFL's supervisor of officials. "... I was talking to Ed within 10 minutes after the game was over, and he was sick. He's still sick (yesterday).

"Everybody works so hard and wants to be perfect in a game you're not likely to ever be perfect. I've talked to him three times. He's really struggling with the fact he made such a bad call."

Hochuli's also manning up and taking his e-mail lumps. His e-mail address isn't hard to find with a simple Yahoo! search, and he's been bombarded with hate mail. And still, he's replying to everyone. Someone relayed the following reply from Hochuli to a message board at the San Diego Union Tribute.

Polo
09-17-2008, 02:20 PM
Football is my love. I freakin live, eat, sleep football.



That said...People need to lighten up...It's just a damn game...

He's been one of the best Refs for a long time now...I love how he calls games...He's human, he made an error...I don't think the man should feel sick about it....

GP
09-17-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't feel sorry for him, nor for the refs or the ref union or the league officials one bit.

They cost teams. They cost teams because they fail to reverse calls, even when the video evidence convicts them (example: The sideline judge giving a first down spot to Schaub, and then walking it back. and then seeing the video and seeing PLAINLY that Schaub had surged forward past the marker. Easily. Uh, hello?). People rag on Kubiak for throwing the challenge flag, but he was right to do it. He was right, guys.

We got screwed on a play clock mistake, in the past. It had ran down to zero and stayed there a tick or two, but the opponent was allowed to snap the ball and we lost because of it. I mean, this is the EASIEST call in the world to make: Did the ball snap as it hit ZERO on the big clock thingey at the end of the field, or did it not?

And when they are told that they screwed up, they seem to always act like they know better than us--That they are above it all. Pereira is the biggest homer goon of all: He is a human shield for the refs' mistakes. Consistently.

They only admit this one because there is absolutely nowhere to hide, and it was a star-studded matchup of two well-known teams. There'd be no aplogizing or "feeling sick" if it had been done to our team, I can guarantee you that.

Awww, poor Eddie feels sick? That's a shame. He never screws up, but I guess he's allowed one mess-up out of the billions of calls he's made. There should be a superior to the head ump, posted in the press box, and the superior should be able to stop the game (for HOWEVER long, it doesn't matter) to sort out these sorts of issues as they happen on the field.

Ya'll might think that it would create a lot of havoc, but right now the refs on the field are allowed to interpret the rules as they see fit. There needs to be a guy removed from the chaos of the field, a guy who can view the refs' calls and stop the game and say "Uh, no. That's a B.S. call right there. Ed, can you hear me? Reverse it. Now." I think it'd make the refs a little bit more careful when they go to turn on their wireless mic to announce what spectacular penalty interpretation they have on a certain bogus call that turns the tide of a game.

I think these refs get a little caught up in their role, IMO.

Double Barrel
09-17-2008, 04:16 PM
They need to make these refs full time employees of the NFL. Not that this has anything to do with this story, but just thought I'd mention it since the thread is about NFL refs. ;)

El Tejano
09-17-2008, 04:54 PM
There'd be no aplogizing or "feeling sick" if it had been done to our team, I can guarantee you that.



Dude you so read my mind and posted it before me.

What else makes me tick is when you see Peyton Manning getting nailed and all dizzied by the Minnesota defense and then a ref comes to help him up and then puts his arm around him as he walks Petyon to the bench and then slaps him on the butt before he goes back to the game.

P.S. I still haven't forgotten the ref that called Mike Renfro out of bounds in the 78 AFC Championship vs. Pittsburgh. I was 3!

DiehardChris
09-17-2008, 05:07 PM
If it had happened to our team, I'd be pissed - but I'd also be saying "we had two chances to stop them from winning the game, on 4th down, and on the 2pt conversion."

disaacks3
09-17-2008, 05:33 PM
Personally, I'm glad to hear that Ed is "sick about it". It might mean he actually cares about the ramifications of his work.

He's "manned up" and taken the abuse far more diligently than many of his peers and that IS to be commended.

As has previously been mentioned (and I HATE to say it), but...I too think that if it had been the Texans on the short end of the stick, nobody would care except us "whiny folks in H-Town". Regarding Kubes' throwing the challenge flag against Pittsburgh - I watched the replays of that entire series and on two of the final three plays, we were HOSED on the spot of the football. Hometown penalties are one thing, but bad spotting starts making me wonder if a guy in stripes has $$$ on the outcome.

kastofsna
09-17-2008, 06:14 PM
better than the baseball umps that say "pfft i made the call and that's the way it is, period." Hochs owns

kastofsna
09-17-2008, 06:15 PM
If it had happened to our team, I'd be pissed - but I'd also be saying "we had two chances to stop them from winning the game, on 4th down, and on the 2pt conversion."
pretty much. there were a bunch of plays after the bad call. like there were plenty of chances for the Raiders to stop the Patriots after the tuck rule call

toronto
09-17-2008, 06:25 PM
Dude you so read my mind and posted it before me.

What else makes me tick is when you see Peyton Manning getting nailed and all dizzied by the Minnesota defense and then a ref comes to help him up and then puts his arm around him as he walks Petyon to the bench and then slaps him on the butt before he goes back to the game.

P.S. I still haven't forgotten the ref that called Mike Renfro out of bounds in the 78 AFC Championship vs. Pittsburgh. I was 3!

Who was that sidejudge in the game? I was 6 :shoot:

hollywood_texan
09-17-2008, 08:14 PM
They need to make these refs full time employees of the NFL. Not that this has anything to do with this story, but just thought I'd mention it since the thread is about NFL refs. ;)

How many businesses have employees that only work about 20 days out of the year consistently for 10 to 20 years consecutively?

People like this work as consultants or contractors for stuff like this in business world.

From the big picture and grand scheme of things, it probably just doesn't make good business sense to make these refs full-time employees.

dtran04
09-17-2008, 08:42 PM
Ed Hochuli just better hope that the Chargers don't miss out on the playoffs by 1 game...

Showtime100
09-17-2008, 11:34 PM
The guy made a mistake and owns up to it. For those of you on his back, get off it. If you can't see your way clear to do that I wish you luck in your perfection.

GP
09-18-2008, 12:36 AM
The guy made a mistake and owns up to it. For those of you on his back, get off it. If you can't see your way clear to do that I wish you luck in your perfection.

For me, this is more about the overall arrogance of NFL referees...as well as the referee "association" that props them up when they make a bad call.

Seeing a ref owning up to it, for a change, is nice.

This is less about the issue of perfection, and more about the issue of the ref being humble and acting like it's POSSIBLE he got it wrong and needed the video to review and correct the bad call. It's almost as if the refs are tired of replay, and the challenge it poses to their authority, and they're slowly saying "Screw replay. My call stands. So, like it..."

It's getting to the point that you know dang well that the ref isn't going to review the video on a coach's challenge and thereby overturn a wrong call that a ref made.

I am not bragging here, but I KNEW deep within my soul that the ref wasn't going to overturn the bad spot on the 4th down play vs. Steelers. I laughed when the ref trotted over to the camera...because I knew he'd trot right back out and prop up the bad call. In spite of the c-l-e-a-r evidence that showed the line judge giving the correct spot and then frantically shuffling backwards to make the ball come up juuuuuuust short.

Some fans might have been cheering when the challenge flag was thrown. Even the TV commentators were watching the replays, during the challenge, and were in full agreement that Schaub surged well past the marker. But I wasn't shocked when the call stood.

They are like the mafia: Crafty and protective of their own little gang.

You won't catch me giving an ounce of sympathy to those guys. A lot of times, they intentionally (for whatever reason: monetary or just psychological) turn games single-handedly at juuuust the right moment and influence the game to take a neat little twist.

How many times is there a holding call, on the offense, when the ball carrier gained 2 or 3 yards? But the RB runs for a big gainer, or even a TD, and POP! there goes the flag. It's even worse when the holding call was 30-yards away from the play...big deal! There's a human desire to influence matters that are important to others, and I think the average NFL ref learns real quickly that he can play God for a few hours on Sunday.

Our anger is not unfounded nor unwarranted. There's a reason they make little referee dolls with the arms and legs that are velcro'd on so you can vent during a game. And while I wouldn't wish "real" violence upon a ref...all I ask for is an accountability system that truly works and does its job, not one that shields its refs from scrutiny.

Wolf
09-18-2008, 12:44 AM
Who was that sidejudge in the game? I was 6 :shoot:

I don't know, jim tunney is all I remember and he might have been the head ref.. I just remember as an 9 year old that i couldn't believe it

and hated the guy (whether he was the messenger or not, i don't remember) because of it

Wolf
09-18-2008, 12:48 AM
I hate HATE the "whistle was blown" call that refs use.. how many replays do we see (for example) of a fumble . and on instant replay the knee is not down and the ball comes out.. however the refs say "whistle was blown" BS .. on that quick call is what i say, only superman with his vision and hearing could tell if the knee hit the ground and when the ball came out.. I despise that call every time. because NO ONE is that quick and if they are , they aren't letting the play finish

GP
09-18-2008, 12:51 AM
While we're at it...

Why does the ref have to trot over to a BOOTH to see the replay?

In this day of technology, shouldn't he have an iPod or a small gadget that he carries, like a Blackberry'ish video player on his hip (in a holster), so that he can snag it and see the replay right where he's at?

Just a quirky thing, to me.

We got satellites beaming music and video to a teenager on his iPod, in a flash, but an NFL ref has to run over to a booth and look at a replay while wearing the big-ass padded headphones.

GP
09-18-2008, 12:55 AM
I hate HATE the "whistle was blown" call that refs use.. how many replays do we see (for example) of a fumble . and on instant replay the knee is not down and the ball comes out.. however the refs say "whistle was blown" BS .. on that quick call is what i say, only superman with his vision and hearing could tell if the knee hit the ground and when the ball came out.. I despise that call every time. because NO ONE is that quick and if they are , they aren't letting the play finish

Which brings up a point: Why doesn't the NFL REVERSE this issue?

All they gotta' do is rescind the "blown whistle" rule, and say that it CAN be reviewed and overturned.

I mean, what's so sacred about this? Action stops for a whole host of reasons, and so why is the "Yeah, but the whistle blew" this big of a deal when it comes to making the right call?

The whistle blows at the end of a running play when the ref had thrown a flag for holding DURING the play...but it doesn't negate the holding penalty.

It's almost as if this rule is meant to be an "Ah HAH! Gotcha! You can't overturn it because you blew the whistle."

Freaking amazing, if you ask me.

kastofsna
09-18-2008, 12:59 AM
For me, this is more about the overall arrogance of NFL referees...as well as the referee "association" that props them up when they make a bad call.

Seeing a ref owning up to it, for a change, is nice.

This is less about the issue of perfection, and more about the issue of the ref being humble and acting like it's POSSIBLE he got it wrong and needed the video to review and correct the bad call. It's almost as if the refs are tired of replay, and the challenge it poses to their authority, and they're slowly saying "Screw replay. My call stands. So, like it..."

It's getting to the point that you know dang well that the ref isn't going to review the video on a coach's challenge and thereby overturn a wrong call that a ref made.

I am not bragging here, but I KNEW deep within my soul that the ref wasn't going to overturn the bad spot on the 4th down play vs. Steelers. I laughed when the ref trotted over to the camera...because I knew he'd trot right back out and prop up the bad call. In spite of the c-l-e-a-r evidence that showed the line judge giving the correct spot and then frantically shuffling backwards to make the ball come up juuuuuuust short.

Some fans might have been cheering when the challenge flag was thrown. Even the TV commentators were watching the replays, during the challenge, and were in full agreement that Schaub surged well past the marker. But I wasn't shocked when the call stood.

They are like the mafia: Crafty and protective of their own little gang.

You won't catch me giving an ounce of sympathy to those guys. A lot of times, they intentionally (for whatever reason: monetary or just psychological) turn games single-handedly at juuuust the right moment and influence the game to take a neat little twist.

How many times is there a holding call, on the offense, when the ball carrier gained 2 or 3 yards? But the RB runs for a big gainer, or even a TD, and POP! there goes the flag. It's even worse when the holding call was 30-yards away from the play...big deal! There's a human desire to influence matters that are important to others, and I think the average NFL ref learns real quickly that he can play God for a few hours on Sunday.

Our anger is not unfounded nor unwarranted. There's a reason they make little referee dolls with the arms and legs that are velcro'd on so you can vent during a game. And while I wouldn't wish "real" violence upon a ref...all I ask for is an accountability system that truly works and does its job, not one that shields its refs from scrutiny.
wow, so much illogical unfounded nonsense packed into one post

GP
09-18-2008, 09:20 AM
wow, so much illogical unfounded nonsense packed into one post

That's your opinion.

Mine is that we can stop with the phoney sympathy for the "poor refs who need our prayers and support right now," and the "Hey, everybody makes mistakes" reasoning.

I've seen genuine "mistakes," which don't bother me. And I have seen blatant neglect of sound judgment. The latter occurs more than the former.

Polo
09-18-2008, 09:24 AM
It was one call, on one play, from one football game....

I hope you guys are doubly as passionate about things that actually matter...

HoustonFrog
09-18-2008, 09:41 AM
It was one call, on one play, from one football game....

I hope you guys are doubly as passionate about things that actually matter...

The difference is that it wasn't just a holding call that brought back a 10 yard game. That ONE call was THE reason Denver still had the ball and one. The ONLY reason. So there is a difference.

I get your reasoning and agree that the there are more important things but the refs need to be held accountable and as people have said, they need to be full time. They are just getting a little younger. For years we have human cadavers trying to keep up with these guys and selling insurance on the side.

Polo
09-18-2008, 09:44 AM
The difference is that it wasn't just a holding call that brought back a 10 yard game. That ONE call was THE reason Denver still had the ball and one. The ONLY reason. So there is a difference..

No there is no difference. A blown call is a blown call. Humans aren't computers. A mistake can be made at anytime. I'm pretty sure if Ed could have chosen when he'd make his one error he'd have chosen a less crucial juncture.


I get your reasoning and agree that the there are more important things but the refs need to be held accountable

According to the article he is being held accountable. According to the article, when Refs make bad calls they are all held accountable.

Can we move on now ?

HoustonFrog
09-18-2008, 09:48 AM
No there is no difference. A blown call is a blown call. Humans aren't computers. A mistake can be made at anytime. I'm pretty sure if Ed could have chosen when he'd make his one error he'd have chosen a less crucial juncture.




According to the article he is being held accountable. According to the article, when Refs make bad calls they are all held accountable.

Can we move on now ?

Move on?I hadn't even had a chance to say anything.

Refs aren't computers but every season the playoffs come down to one game. If you lose a game and a chance at the SB and a chance at revenue all because a ref blew it, it is a big deal. Again, a holding call in the second quarter is NOT the same as a blatant fumble where one team should have the ball to end the game. You can make up 10 yards, not possession. That is pretty cut and dry.

I never said they weren't held accountable...I just said they need to be, thus the flap.

Polo
09-18-2008, 10:01 AM
If you lose a game and a chance at the SB and a chance at revenue all because a ref blew it, it is a big deal.

If. If. If.

My turn...

If the Chargers go on to make the play-offs that one call from that one game doesn't matter and people forget that it ever happened.

If. If. If.

He's been a very good ref. The man made a mistake. He feels bad about it. He's being held accountable. Not sure what else you guys are seeking to happen.

HoustonFrog
09-18-2008, 10:16 AM
If. If. If.

My turn...

If the Chargers go on to make the play-offs that one call from that one game doesn't matter and people forget that it ever happened.

If. If. If.

He's been a very good ref. The man made a mistake. He feels bad about it. He's being held accountable. Not sure what else you guys are seeking to happen.

You are pretty closed minded on this subject so I won't even try anymore. Maybe you should open up a little bit. Even if they make the playoffs did it cost them a home game, two home games?they aren't "ifs" because it did happen and it does have ramifications...a loss.

I agree with your last paragraph and like the man....except that you are the one acting like it made no difference and that this call is just like a 1st quarter delay of game they missed on the clock or something. Its a L because of it. Plain and simple. Ls have ramifications in a 16 game season. That is all it means.

Polo
09-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Ls have ramifications in a 16 game season. That is all it means.

Signed,

The New York giants vs the 18-0 New England Patriots.


If (there's that word again) that one loss makes the Chargers season it's their fault.

Double Barrel
09-18-2008, 10:34 AM
How many businesses have employees that only work about 20 days out of the year consistently for 10 to 20 years consecutively?

People like this work as consultants or contractors for stuff like this in business world.

From the big picture and grand scheme of things, it probably just doesn't make good business sense to make these refs full-time employees.

There is a lot more to the job than just showing up...

Refereeing can often be full-time job (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1248329.html)

A year ago, the NFL Referees Association hired an outside accounting firm to determine if their part-time jobs had full-time considerations.

The firm determined that the job is more involved than just showing up at games on Sundays and officiating for three hours. Ed Hochuli, who heads the NFLRA, goes through a typical NFL week.

"It varies a little bit from official to official, depending upon the position," Hochuli said. "I'm a referee and spend about 15 hours a week reviewing video tape. I look at game tapes which includes the television view, the sideline view and the end zone vew from teams. I have to break that down. I get position tapes. For example, the referees will get referee's tapes that show intentional grounding, offensive holding, illegal hits to the quarterback, chop blocks and things like that."

A lawyer by trade, Hochuli says he spends maybe two hours in the morning and four hours at night doing things related to officiating from Monday to Friday. "All of the officials are looking at the same tapes, seeing calls, because it's a narrow line between what's legal and what's illegal," he said.

Hochuli said he spends a couple of hours a week doing administrative things. He must file reports to the league. He has to write letters on behalf of the league. All are part of his job as a referee.

"Each official has to take a written test every week during the season and every month in the offseason," Hochuli said. "I personally spent an hour a day studying rules. Rules in the NFL are extremely complicated. Rules enforcement in the NFL is extremely complicated. We have a case book that has 1,000 plays. I find in order to stay on top of the rules, I read them all the time."

Most officials on all levels -- high school, college and pros -- read case books to stay current on rules.

"I spent a lot of time on the phone," Hochuli said. "I have to talk to supervisors three to five times a week involving the grading process of officials. Members of the crew spend a lot of time talking to each other during the week. I'll probably talk to the six other members of my crew at least two or three times during the week to talk about rules interpretation."

Overall, that totals about 30 hours a week.

"I consider my conditioning part of the job," Hochuli said. "I have to be fit and have to move around. I consider my appearance important. I should look like an athlete on the field, so I spend a couple hours a day on conditioning."


NFL should hire full-time referees (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/sep/17/nfl_should_hire_fulltime_referees/)

If the league is really serious about top-quality officiating, though, maybe it ought to quit hiring hobbyists and start employing people to do the job full time.

The NFL is the richest pro league around, with Forbes estimating just last week that each team is worth an average of $1 billion. But it is the only major professional league that uses part-time officials to call its games.

This gives the league wide flexibility in the hiring and firing of officials, and makes it less likely that they’ll cause labor disruptions. But it only makes sense that someone working five days a week, 50 weeks a year, studying and practicing his craft would be that much better than someone who has to work a regular job, too.

HoustonFrog
09-18-2008, 10:44 AM
Signed,

The New York giants vs the 18-0 New England Patriots.


If (there's that word again) that one loss makes the Chargers season it's their fault.

That makes no sense at all. Not even in the same ballpark. Seriously. One loss once in the playoffs doesn't make the difference. Few teams in history have made it through with a full road scehdule.

Again, you are too closed minded about this to look at both sides. If one loss keeps them out of the playoffs, then it is a shame because they would have one loss not attributed to them. The fact that Hochuli admitted that it cost them the game shows that.

You also are forgetting that I said he should be looked at kindly for admitting it and feeling bad. I mean the guy is answering hate mail. i respect that completely!

Polo
09-18-2008, 10:52 AM
That makes no sense at all. Not even in the same ballpark. Seriously. One loss once in the playoffs doesn't make the difference. Few teams in history have made it through with a full road scehdule.

Again, you are too closed minded about this to look at both sides. If one loss keeps them out of the playoffs, then it is a shame because they would have one loss not attributed to them. The fact that Hochuli admitted that it cost them the game shows that.

You also are forgetting that I said he should be looked at kindly for admitting it and feeling bad.

You said loses have ramifications during a 16 game schedule. That's not neccesarily true as evidence of last years superbowl.

Sure that one call COULD cost them. It also may not cost them. not sure why I have to jump on board the negativity ship to be considered 'open minded'.

If the chargers don't make the play-offs I'm pretty sure there will be a whole slew of things that will ahve gone wrong. Pointing at that one error and saying "it could make their season" is silly to me. It's just as silly as pointing to one play as the reason a team loses. But I guess that's my close mindedness.

kastofsna
09-18-2008, 11:16 AM
i'm sure if one loss keeps them out of the playoffs, it'll be a loss late in the season that'll be the fault of it all.

HOU-TEX
09-18-2008, 11:20 AM
i'm sure if one loss keeps them out of the playoffs, it'll be a loss late in the season that'll be the fault of it all.

That makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:

HoustonFrog
09-18-2008, 01:08 PM
You said loses have ramifications during a 16 game schedule. That's not neccesarily true as evidence of last years superbowl.

Sure that one call COULD cost them. It also may not cost them. not sure why I have to jump on board the negativity ship to be considered 'open minded'.

If the chargers don't make the play-offs I'm pretty sure there will be a whole slew of things that will ahve gone wrong. Pointing at that one error and saying "it could make their season" is silly to me. It's just as silly as pointing to one play as the reason a team loses. But I guess that's my close mindedness.

You are right in a sense. I didn't say you needed to jump on board. When I said be open-minded, I meant to the gaff. I can be open minded and think it is an incredible injustice yet feel sorry for the guy and accept what he is going through. You just seem to blow off the implications of it as if it was no big deal. That was my problem.

kastofsna
09-18-2008, 01:43 PM
That makes alot of sense. :rolleyes:
:thisbig:

Fox
09-18-2008, 03:57 PM
The Chargers have a club with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs. Hochuli's missed call turned a sure W ultimately into a L. That one W that is now a L could end up being the difference in making or not making the playoffs, it could end up being the difference in having or not having home advantage, or it could end up making no difference at all. The Chargers still have control over their own fate, but there's no arguing the potential ramifications of this.

1-1, 1-0 in your division sounds much better than 0-2, 0-1 in your division.

disaacks3
09-18-2008, 07:00 PM
What's being LOST in all this is that if Hochuli's reaction were the norm, then it'd be a GOOD thing. I like that an official actually feels "bothered" by this. Generally speaking, you get the reaction (expressed by a few in this thread) that these are just "things that happen" and they can always be overcome.

I personally beg to differ with that opinion - No NFL team scores everytime they touch the ball. No Defense stops every drive against it. Most games in the NFL are decided by one or two pivotal drives and the momentum shifts associated with those drives are very real because players/coaches (just like the refs) are human as well. While it's obvious that the earlier in a game a mistake occurs, the longer the team has to recover from it, it doesn't necessarily make it less important to the "tone" of the game. Call it the NFL butterfly effect if you want.

The NFL has historically been very close-mouthed regarding Referee errors. They obviously occur, almost EVERY game, but it's questionable as to how pivotal they are. If this helps make the review process more transparent and sets in motion rule modifications to facilitate 'reversals', then what harm can it do?

hollywood_texan
09-18-2008, 07:00 PM
There is a lot more to the job than just showing up...

Nice article, but that doesn't mean every referee has to be an employee.

Other refs probably are not spending the same amount as Ed Hochuli. That guy is like a Cult Figure anyway, so I wouldn't use him as the typical referee.

From my experience in the business/accounting world, I can see an argument for these referees to not be full time employees.

Maybe the head referees are full time employees and the rest are part time or contractors?

My point is, this is unique situation and using a general or generic business model/approach doesn't seem appropriate.

Double Barrel
09-18-2008, 07:08 PM
Nice article, but that doesn't mean every referee has to be an employee.

Other refs probably are not spending the same amount as Ed Hochuli. That guy is like a Cult Figure anyway, so I wouldn't use him as the typical referee.

From my experience in the business/accounting world, I can see an argument for these referees to not be full time employees.

Maybe the head referees are full time employees and the rest are part time or contractors?

My point is, this is unique situation and using a general or generic business model/approach doesn't seem appropriate.

You get the best when you can offer the best. The argument goes that there could be better qualified individuals available as refs, but they won't take a part time job. It's a simple concept. The NFL is the only professional league that uses part time referees (there's your 'unique situation' for you). They could be training year-round so they are better prepared to make quick judgement calls, like the one that Hochuli blew.

The point being is that you were wrong to make the statement that it's just a 20 day a year job. NFL Network has done some documentary work about refs and ALL of them do a lot of behind the scenes work to become and stay NFL referees.

hollywood_texan
09-18-2008, 10:49 PM
You get the best when you can offer the best. The argument goes that there could be better qualified individuals available as refs, but they won't take a part time job. It's a simple concept. The NFL is the only professional league that uses part time referees (there's your 'unique situation' for you). They could be training year-round so they are better prepared to make quick judgement calls, like the one that Hochuli blew.

The point being is that you were wrong to make the statement that it's just a 20 day a year job. NFL Network has done some documentary work about refs and ALL of them do a lot of behind the scenes work to become and stay NFL referees.

There are 2,080 hours a year for an average employee.

By using Ed Hochuli's hours worked a week during a season, I estimate his average hours worked for a year are somewhere between 600-750 hours.

What else are these officials going to do in the off-season? I can't imagine these guys spending that much time on officiating in the off-season. In my experience in the business/accounting world, working that few a hours a year means these guys are not going to be classified as employees.

In addition, I suspect that there are lot of officials that are not working 30 hours a week as an NFL official like Ed Hochuli.

The NFL is a business and there a whole host of problems and issues to consider in the employees vs. contractors/part-time employees.

Bottom line, my postings were never intended to say they should or shouldn't be employees. I don't know all the specifics and issues that are at hand. But, my main point is that this isn't that simple or cut and dry.

Also, I don't think you can compare the NFL officials to MLB or NBA officials because those games are played regularly all week for many months.

This situation is just a strange bird, which means you can't put it in any of the typical boxes that are available.

Maybe the issue is really about money and has nothing to do with their employment classification?

El Tejano
09-19-2008, 11:45 AM
If it had happened to our team, I'd be pissed - but I'd also be saying "we had two chances to stop them from winning the game, on 4th down, and on the 2pt conversion."

Well one can say, "Why do we have to stop them on 4th down and on the 2pt conversion when we already stopped them on 3rd down."

Double Barrel
09-19-2008, 12:21 PM
There are 2,080 hours a year for an average employee.

By using Ed Hochuli's hours worked a week during a season, I estimate his average hours worked for a year are somewhere between 600-750 hours.

----

In my experience in the business/accounting world, working that few a hours a year means these guys are not going to be classified as employees.

You are contradicting yourself in this thread. You state the above, but then earlier you said:

My point is, this is unique situation and using a general or generic business model/approach doesn't seem appropriate.

Which is it?

What else are these officials going to do in the off-season? I can't imagine these guys spending that much time on officiating in the off-season.

According to Bill Carollo, former executive director of the NFL Referee's Association, "as full-timers they would be involved in yearlong activities, including working clinics, doing film study and officiating training camp practices."

"Every NFL official spends at least 15-20 hours or more weekly studying and breaking down video of the previous game. The study these games play by play and at every angle possible. The entire officiating crew engages in many telephone conversations to each other in which they discuss certain calls, game situations and rule interpretations.

All officials are required to take a weekly written rules examination during the regular season. During the off-season, all officials must submit a monthly rules examination. These exams are not graded since the purpose of these exams is to keep the rules “fresh” in the officials’ minds. Most officials spend at least 1 to 2 hours or more studying the rules and casebooks.

Officials also must keep in shape to keep up with the speed and action of a professional football game. Physical conditioning is a very important factor. Daily workouts could last from 2 to 3 hours every day or even longer in some cases."

hollywood_texan
09-19-2008, 01:27 PM
You are contradicting yourself in this thread. You state the above, but then earlier you said:.

I don't see what you are referring too.





According to Bill Carollo, former executive director of the NFL Referee's Association, "as full-timers they would be involved in yearlong activities, including working clinics, doing film study and officiating training camp practices."

"Every NFL official spends at least 15-20 hours or more weekly studying and breaking down video of the previous game. The study these games play by play and at every angle possible. The entire officiating crew engages in many telephone conversations to each other in which they discuss certain calls, game situations and rule interpretations.

All officials are required to take a weekly written rules examination during the regular season. During the off-season, all officials must submit a monthly rules examination. These exams are not graded since the purpose of these exams is to keep the rules “fresh” in the officials’ minds. Most officials spend at least 1 to 2 hours or more studying the rules and casebooks.

Officials also must keep in shape to keep up with the speed and action of a professional football game. Physical conditioning is a very important factor. Daily workouts could last from 2 to 3 hours every day or even longer in some cases."

What is that these guys want?

I suspect the issue is money.

Maybe their issues and concerns have nothing to do with employement classifications? But from a public relations perspective, they can use the employment classification to their advantage to get what they really want.

Like I said earlier, I do not know the specific issues going on here and the objectives/concerns the parties have. There seems to be a lot that is not being publicly discussed. With that said, the purpose of my posts where more general in nature.

What I do know is that the employee/part-time/contractor issue is a very fluid analysis and varies on a case by case greatly depending on facts and circumstances.

New_Texans
09-19-2008, 01:31 PM
I still think Ed Hochuli is one of the best refs in the league..:hides: