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Runner
09-07-2008, 03:56 PM
These items are being brought up on various threads, so I though I'd centralize them. Is it talent or coaching or front office?

I think you have to look at all three. This team has many holes, some of them the same since the new coaching staff got here.

No RB, a mediocre at best o-line, bad DBs, no pass rush. Haven't we heard this before? Why hasn't the coaching staff/front office been able to improve such chronically bad areas? They are the professionals at this, and if they are as error free as many think these weaknesses wouldn't still be there.

We have a lot of players on the field that wouldn't be starting anywhere else. If you blame it all on talent though, then Capers and crowd should still be here because they didn't have any talent either.

=====================================

The players shoulder a lot of blame too. I don't see a lot of leadership, and many players should be playing better than they do. For instance, someone like Schaub should be able to see defenders between him and the receiver. The o-line should look like they have some concept of playing as a unit too, and I don't see that for stretches.

=====================================

A lot of people took offense at the Texans over/under of 7.5 games or whatever it was. I posted at the time I thought it was reasonable and it looks like it might be.

If everything breaks right, this team's record could match the best of the Capers/Carr years!

hollywood_texan
09-07-2008, 04:01 PM
I'll go a little deeper on the core problem.

The requirement of class and moral good standing is getting in the way of things.

I am not advocating rapists and murderers should be on the team or as coaches, but we need the best football players and coaches!

ObsiWan
09-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Our defense just gave up 38 pts and Willie Parker did what he wanted to on the ground
and you're asking what's wrong?

Marcus
09-07-2008, 04:17 PM
It's a combination of all three, and if you've followed this team for any length of time, you know that front office decisions effect how much talent the team has, or doesn't have.

But just because the team hasn't had a winning season the first seven seasons, that in itself, will not produce a winning team any faster. All the amount of increased impatience and frustration isn't going to make any difference.

For this team to become a winner, it will take all three. Plus, a little luck. When is it going to happen? Who knows. But one thing's for sure, it will take longer than any of us want.

TexansSeminole
09-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Mario is the only player that had a good game really.

We just look like a really bad football team.

ObsiWan
09-07-2008, 04:18 PM
I'll go a little deeper on the core problem.

The requirement of class and moral good standing is getting in the way of things.

I am not advocating rapists and murderers should be on the team or as coaches, but we need the best football players and coaches!

That's not it.
The Bengals have a stud QB (supposedly), two stud WRs, and are full of miscreants and they still lose

you need a defensive system that works and scouts that find guys to fit it.

FirstTexansFan
09-07-2008, 04:20 PM
Well a positive....Mario at this rate will have 32 sacks by the end of the season...the negative, our opponents will have scored 608 points :)

J-Russ
09-07-2008, 04:21 PM
Kubiak got Frank Bush in the off-season, before OTAs and TC. Frank could've came in and installed a defense with the Texans and have them learn it for two months, and it still couldn't had been worst then todays D. If Frank really was Kubiaks first choice, if he is suppose to be our future DC, then he should've been given the job during the off-season.

Kubiak shot himself in the foot on that decision. Now if he decides to fire Smith at some point this season then the new DC will either be using the same scheme as Smith or use his own's and have players have a crash course in it. If we wait until off-season then we'll be in the same boat as we were last off-season, which is ditch the old scheme and install a new. We could've done that before the season started but we decided to stick with Smith and use the OTAs, TC, and pre-season game learning/using his dumb scheme.

eriadoc
09-07-2008, 04:22 PM
Front Office - What I expect from a FO is to scout well and work with the coaches to get the kind of players that the coaches want. I expect the owner to communicate with his GM and coaches, but ultimately, give them the resources to do their job and get out of the way, while keeping an eye on results. I also expect the GM to draft sensible contracts with an eye to the future. I think our FO does a pretty good job.

Talent - we are deficient. We may disagree as to how deficient we are, but we don't have the horses to beat the consistent playoff teams on any sort of a regular basis. However, all teams have to get production from less than premium talent. Furthermore, teams need to get premium production from guys that they pay a premium for. In our case, that means Travis Johnson, Anthony Weaver, Amobi Okoye, Morlon Greenwood, Ahman Green, Matt Schaub, Duane Brown, and Eric Winston have to perform well. The obvious guys also have to perform well (AJ, Mario, Ryans). However comfortable you feel with that is probably a good indicator of your true expectations for this team.

Coaching - What I expect from coaching is to see player development. Duane Brown had a rough first game. He did some good things early, but he ultimately ended up playing like a rookie. It sucks, but that's how it is. Now I want to see how he develops over the next 15 games, and over the next couple years. I want to see how Okoye, Bennett, Molden, Diles, etc. develop. Fruthermore, I expect to see a scheme that overcomes deficiencies to a point. Kubiak's offense is a perfect counterpoint to Richard Smith's defense, actually. Kubiak's offense put up over 5K yards last year despite the injuries, subpar running game, and pathetic defense. If you gave Kubiak a Pro Bowl roster on offense, he'd put together a Super Bowl offense. If you gave Richard Smith a Pro Bowl roster on defense, he might get us into the top 12, maybe? When you see the other team consistently taking advantage of mismatches, you also expect to see the defense adjust. Kubiak, to his credit, has continually tried to surround himself with coaches to help with defense. He knows offense, and you can tell he wants help on defense. He's aware of his limitations, and he works to remedy them. This year, he brought in Ray Rhodes. We'll see. So far, no good, but it's only one game.

We have a coaching deficiency, at least with Richard Smith, and possibly with Jethro Franklin and Jon Hoke. This season, their jobs would be on the line, if I were in charge.

hollywood_texan
09-07-2008, 04:26 PM
That's not it.
The Bengals have a stud QB (supposedly), two stud WRs, and are full of miscreants and they still lose

you need a defensive system that works and scouts that find guys to fit it.

Your missing my point.

Excluding a player or two from your team could be the difference from bad/mediocre to good. Case in point, the Cedric Benson thread. Adam Jones. So on...

It seems the first criteria for selecting the front office, coaching staff, and players have nothing to do with what they actually are hired to do.

DBCooper
09-07-2008, 04:32 PM
Our defense just gave up 38 pts and Willie Parker did what he wanted to on the ground
and you're asking what's wrong?

The Steelers could have told us they would run the ball every play, ran the ball every play, and we could not have stopped them today.

Pathetic.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2008, 04:37 PM
Your missing my point.

Excluding a player or two from your team could be the difference from bad/mediocre to good. Case in point, the Cedric Benson thread. Adam Jones. So on...

It seems the first criteria for selecting the front office, coaching staff, and players have nothing to do with what they actually are hired to do.

You are refering to the owner and yes I think he likes good citizens . Yes ... I think he'd nix a player who could help because of reputation .

Insideop
09-07-2008, 05:07 PM
I don't really see this as a talent, coaching, or FO thing. I see it more as an experience issue, especially with the O-line. Look what we have, a Rookie LT, a new Center, a RG that's only played a few games, and a somewhat new scheme (true ZB) taught by a new coach. Plus the fact that we are trying to pass more to set up the run with O-linemen that are not really built to be prime pass protectors. What I mean is, they are quick (though Brown didn't look too quick in pass protection) and light and built more for the ZB scheme. I guess they wanted to pass to set up the run because of the Steelers great run defense.

The bottom line is I'm not too upset about this loss. I knew this was going to be a brutal 5 game stretch, but I was hoping it would have been a little closer game today. I think the O-line (and Brown especially) is going to have to suck it up and get ready for Baltimore. It may take a little longer than I'd hoped it would for them to gel as a unit, but I 'm not pushing the panic button :panic: yet. JMHO!

Texan JBZ
09-07-2008, 05:11 PM
The Steelers could have told us they would run the ball every play, ran the ball every play, and we could not have stopped them today.

Pathetic.


Maybe if we..I don't know..at least ATTEMPTED A RUN BLITZ SOMETIMES!

ObsiWan
09-07-2008, 05:13 PM
enough of us believe that its either lack of coaching or lack of personnel. We're not stupid, ESPN-following, nincompoops, so we must both be right - I think someone said that already.

having established its some combination of both, which do we fix first?

Cut the slackers and bring in new players?

ObsiWan
09-07-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't really see this as a talent, coaching, or FO thing. I see it more as an experience issue, especially with the O-line. Look what we have, a Rookie LT, a new Center, a RG that's only played a few games, and a somewhat new scheme (true ZB) taught by a new coach. Plus the fact that we are trying to pass more to set up the run with O-linemen that are not really built to be prime pass protectors. What I mean is, they are quick (though Brown didn't look too quick in pass protection) and light and built more for the ZB scheme. I guess they wanted to pass to set up the run because of the Steelers great run defense.

The bottom line is I'm not too upset about this loss. I knew this was going to be a brutal 5 game stretch, but I was hoping it would have been a little closer game today. I think the O-line (and Brown especially) is going to have to suck it up and get ready for Baltimore. It may take a little longer than I'd hoped it would for them to gel as a unit, but I 'm not pushing the panic button :panic: yet. JMHO!

that doesn't explain the lack of defense

Hervoyel
09-07-2008, 05:23 PM
that doesn't explain the lack of defense

I have it on good authority that it's all on the talent. Richard Smith is powerless to do anything with these bums.

eriadoc
09-07-2008, 05:37 PM
I have it on good authority that it's all on the talent. Richard Smith is powerless to do anything with these bums.

Well, that part appears to be true, at least ;)

dtran04
09-07-2008, 05:44 PM
I personally don't like the tiny linebackers. Demeco is a "smaller" guy himself and needs bigger guys to balance it out. They have no shot against a pulling lineman. On the other hand, the Steelers' LB's were destroying the Texans OLine.

hollywood_texan
09-07-2008, 05:46 PM
You are refering to the owner and yes I think he likes good citizens . Yes ... I think he'd nix a player who could help because of reputation .

You need a few elite players to be a good team in the NFL. Of course, you need some mid-range players too to fill things out.

Of course, there are players that can pass this test, but they may not be available at the time you need them at the right price.

I understand the character component, but I think they imploy it way too often, which excludes a great number of players that could really help this team.

Spike
09-07-2008, 05:53 PM
You need a few elite players to be a good team in the NFL. Of course, you need some mid-range players too to fill things out.

Of course, there are players that can pass this test, but they may not be available at the time you need them at the right price.

I understand the character component, but I think they imploy it way too often, which excludes a great number of players that could really help this team.

I'm sorry...I am not following your reasoning at all.

pappy
09-07-2008, 05:58 PM
I personally don't like the tiny linebackers. Demeco is a "smaller" guy himself and needs bigger guys to balance it out. They have no shot against a pulling lineman. On the other hand, the Steelers' LB's were destroying the Texans OLine.

It is not a case of destroying or being bigger but a need to have a workable game plan to start with . We are not the steelers and we do not have power backs or linemen for short yardage or for a sustained running attack . However the coaches seem to think that we need to be all about running the ball . Where oh where does that come from ? When the talent we field is of that type then maybe but other wise lets play our strength , the passing game ( especially when we are behind allot ) . This team on both sides of the ball are built for speed and attempt to play as if we are built for power .

Insideop
09-07-2008, 08:45 PM
that doesn't explain the lack of defense

Maybe it does to some extent. When your offense can only muster 3 points for 3 quarters, and they are usually going 3 and out, that doesn't help your defense very much. :heat:

PhilpW
09-07-2008, 09:20 PM
. This team on both sides of the ball are built for speed and attempt to play as if we are built for power .


I think you nailed it.

Double Barrel
09-08-2008, 10:52 AM
There were a lot of failed fundamentals out there yesterday. Too many missed tackles and blown assignments to count. I think the problems exist from top to bottom. The need to learn the basics of tackling a ball carrier on defense and blocking on offense before this team can be expected to be consistently competitive. Yesterday seemed like we are regressing in many troubling ways.

nunusguy
09-08-2008, 11:08 AM
No other component of the D or O has got a higher priority by Kubiak & Smith
than the defensive line. Weaver was Kubiaks top FA acquisition his first year here and Mario & Amobi have been their top Draft picks in the 2006 & 2007 Drafts, respectively.
Mario is obviously playing well, but the other 2 have been big disappointments so far and thats not a good average (1 out of 3).
Sorry, but this is really troubling to me. I'd thought that these 2 had a real
eye for talent in this league and now I have doubts ?

Vinny
09-08-2008, 11:29 AM
No other component of the D or O has got a higher priority by Kubiak & Smith
than the defensive line. Weaver was Kubiaks top FA acquisition his first year here and Mario & Amobi have been their top Draft picks in the 2006 & 2007 Drafts, respectively.
Mario is obviously playing well, but the other 2 have been big disappointments so far and thats not a good average (1 out of 3).
Sorry, but this is really troubling to me. I'd thought that these 2 had a real
eye for talent in this league and now I have doubts ?football is an emotional game played best when you have a chip on the shoulder defensively. I see a bunch of mostly undersized players who are in a defensive scheme that makes me scratch my head. Weaver is a fine Gentleman who has a nice backpedal though.

bckey
09-08-2008, 12:19 PM
Weaver is a fine Gentleman who has a nice backpedal though.

Thats too funny.lol:

beerlover
09-08-2008, 12:21 PM
COACHING is a process that was exposed by a very good defensive team in Pittsburgh. The Texans where school'ed on how to run the ball, take control of the clock & run out the game. the blueprint was right there & it starts with defense. Dick LeBeau has 35 years of expereince, Tomlin made sure he retained his services, LeBeau's track record is impressive just last year in fact Pittsburgh rated #1 total overall defense, finishing 3rd in both run & pass. compare that with Richard Smith- what did we really expect? huge advantage Pittsburgh.

You know I gotta give some props to Lance Zierlein's dad, Larry who's been in coaching some 38 years now in charge of a offensive line that, with exception of Mario, dominated our D-Line & where able to run the ball at will. Just those two coaches alone have 73 years of expereince & it shows on the field just how prepared & well they executed.

I don't feel like writing a book on the subject but be patient with coaching, the FRONT OFFICE did address the inexpereince of the coaching staff this off-season by bringing in Gibbs & Rhodes. It's gonna take at least another 2-3 years to get where we want to be, the Texans 10th anniversery team will be a much more compelling product & playoff contender. Rick Smith has been dealing with a salary cap nightmare & next year will be the first year the Texans can actually add some top shelf free agents. With limited draft picks the Texans have also done above average work maximizing talent. once again it takes time for those younger players to adjust to the system & develop into NFL players. Watching Pittsburgh defense dominate I'm most impressed with their LB's.

The Texans lack TALENT on the weakside, they really need a speed/power athletic playmaker who can both rush the QB, cover in space & play the run. I'm really impressed with Zach Diles (13 tackles) & of course DeMeco (12 tackles) but the Texans have a huge hole on the other side not to mention lack outside pass rush next to Mario. I think most of us who have been around here awhile understand the 3-4 that the pass rush comes mostly from the OLB position, while I'm not advocating a change back to this scheme our weakside LB play is weak at best & deserves addressing much earlier in the draft than the 4th rd. at the very least the front office needs to get together with the coaches & come to the conclusion about Morlan Greenwood. He is lost & confussed in both run support & coverage, hence he should be benched. Take a good long hard look @ Xavier Adibi if he is unable to contribute make a roster move & bring Kevis Coley off the practice squad. At least he showed alot of hustle/speed in both coverage & tackles (led the team in tackles 15 in last preseason game against Tampa Bay) also hope they haven't lost Moffits (13 tackles) phone number the Texans need to go young & hungry @ LB :phone:

HOU-TEX
09-08-2008, 12:23 PM
Thats too funny.lol:

Yeah, funny but sad at the same time. It was lovely watching a WR completely push him inside and irrelevant on a play or two to his side.

All I could do was laugh midway through the 3rd quarter. You know, one of those laughing but crying at the same time kinda laughs.

Polo
09-08-2008, 12:36 PM
The Texans lack TALENT on the weakside, they really need a speed/power athletic playmaker who can both rush the QB, cover in space & play the run. I'm really impressed with Zach Diles (13 tackles) & of course DeMeco (12 tackles) but the Texans have a huge hole on the other side not to mention lack outside pass rush next to Mario. I think most of us who have been around here awhile understand the 3-4 that the pass rush comes mostly from the OLB position, while I'm not advocating a change back to this scheme our weakside LB play is weak at best & deserves addressing much earlier in the draft than the 4th rd. at the very least the front office needs to get together with the coaches & come to the conclusion about Morlan Greenwood. He is lost & confussed in both run support & coverage, hence he should be benched. Take a good long hard look @ Xavier Adibi if he is unable to contribute make a roster move & bring Kevis Coley off the practice squad. At least he showed alot of hustle/speed in both coverage & tackles (led the team in tackles 15 in last preseason game against Tampa Bay) also hope they haven't lost Moffits (13 tackles) phone number the Texans need to go young & hungry @ LB :phone:

When I called out Greenwood a few years ago, I was called crazy...

Guess he's getting exposed now...

gtexan02
09-08-2008, 12:48 PM
The sad thing to me is that we are constantly drafting smaller, fast guys, but still have to watch Willie Parker easily get to the outside.

Whats the point of having fast guys if they are slower than the other teams running backs?

eriadoc
09-08-2008, 12:55 PM
The Texans lack TALENT on the weakside, they really need a speed/power athletic playmaker who can both rush the QB, cover in space & play the run. I'm really impressed with Zach Diles (13 tackles) ...

Those were the most lackluster tackles since Jay Foreman, IMO. I really didn't see a lot to be impressed with, neither in this game nor in the pre-season. It's still early, though, and Diles will get plenty of time.

Honoring Earl 34
09-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Those were the most lackluster tackles since Jay Foreman, IMO. I really didn't see a lot to be impressed with, neither in this game nor in the pre-season. It's still early, though, and Diles will get plenty of time.

I also thought I saw a certain tatooed FS who always seemed two steps to late . Maybe I got hold of the wrong mushrooms .

badboy
09-08-2008, 01:33 PM
I saw an offensive line that seemed to be blocking straight ahead in first half and not pushing the D back. I saw two light halfbacks trying to bull forward rather than using their speed. I saw a probowl WR on one side and a very fast solid WR opposite that could not stretch the field and were catching short dump passes that I expect the slot and TEs to get. I saw a QB play exactly like David Carr. I saw a FB drop an easy pass & miss a few blocks. Where is this great ZBS that can allow any old Rb become a 1,000 yard rusher? Where was the healthy Salaam when the new kid was doing all he could but looked bedraggled?

I fortunately saw the same Mario from last season. Unfortunately, I also saw the same Dline surrounding him play the same as last season. I saw undersized LBs selected to rush the QB or fall back with a WR get manhandled. I saw a defense start this season as they played for the most part last year, without a clue to what the offense was going to do. I saw an entire team that looked unmotivated except for Mario and Diles. Even AJ seemed to have a "here we go again" look on his face in 3rd.

Let's see, our offensive strength is our WRs & TEs, so the battle plan is to run the ball up the middle? Yeah, the players play but the coaches gotta coach.

eriadoc
09-08-2008, 01:38 PM
Where was the healthy Salaam when the new kid was doing all he could but looked bedraggled?

If you go back and re-watch the series after the Duane Brown attempted fumble recovery/sack play, they put Salaam in. And he promptly got run over and looked just like every other lineman out there all game. He got owned.

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 01:44 PM
Your missing my point.

Excluding a player or two from your team could be the difference from bad/mediocre to good. Case in point, the Cedric Benson thread. Adam Jones. So on...

It seems the first criteria for selecting the front office, coaching staff, and players have nothing to do with what they actually are hired to do.

okay, I see where you're going.
Tank Johnson is another excellent example.
We sure could use a guy with his talent on our D-line. But McNair wouldn't go within 250 miles of him.

Polo
09-08-2008, 01:59 PM
Those were the most lackluster tackles since Jay Foreman, IMO. I really didn't see a lot to be impressed with, neither in this game nor in the pre-season. It's still early, though, and Diles will get plenty of time.

Diles is really good at sealing off the edge on his side....I didn't see how he played that toss that Parker scored on, but overall Diles looks good IMO...

He's very strong at the point of attack...good quickness and he seems to have decent instincts...

His first responsibilty will mostly be outside contain so the fact that he was folding back inside to make a lot of those tackles is pretty good...If we can hold up better inside and force runners to try to bounce it, he'll probably have a lot more "impressive" tackles vs. "jay foremean" type tackles...

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 02:09 PM
When I called out Greenwood a few years ago, I was called crazy...

Guess he's getting exposed now...

A few years ago, we had more pressing needs to address --- like QB, a decent TE, another WR to compliment A.J., shoring up the O-line. Our list was loooong.

Now we've addressed most of the higher priorities - RB remains only partially addressed and the secondary still needs bonafide players - so its time for Greenwood and Weaver to be replaced. The return on investment regarding those two sucks. If those were stocks it would be time to dump them.

eriadoc
09-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Diles is really good at sealing off the edge on his side....I didn't see how he played that toss that Parker scored on, but overall Diles looks good IMO...

He's very strong at the point of attack...good quickness and he seems to have decent instincts...

His first responsibilty will mostly be outside contain so the fact that he was folding back inside to make a lot of those tackles is pretty good...If we can hold up better inside and force runners to try to bounce it, he'll probably have a lot more "impressive" tackles vs. "jay foremean" type tackles...

We'll see. I'm not disagreeing with any of that. The rest of the defense was bad enough that gauging any individual performance is pretty difficult. Worth mentioning, though, is the 2nd Hines Wrd TD. Diles was lined up on Ward at the LOS. He tried to chuck Ward, but Ward beat him, then exploited the zone coverage for the TD. I know you're reluctant to recognize scheming as an issue when the players are so poor, but that's either Diles playing it badly or a poor scheme. If I'm the QB, I want Diles on Ward all day long, so I'm going to go with bad scheming.

Vinny
09-08-2008, 02:14 PM
I thought Greenwood and Diles both were slow to the ball and easily blocked yesterday. Our entire front seven was as soft as jello.

HOU-TEX
09-08-2008, 02:20 PM
Diles is really good at sealing off the edge on his side....I didn't see how he played that toss that Parker scored on, but overall Diles looks good IMO...

He's very strong at the point of attack...good quickness and he seems to have decent instincts...

His first responsibilty will mostly be outside contain so the fact that he was folding back inside to make a lot of those tackles is pretty good...If we can hold up better inside and force runners to try to bounce it, he'll probably have a lot more "impressive" tackles vs. "jay foremean" type tackles...

IMO, Diles did not play well at all. Then again, the entire LBing crew looked lost. That includes D-Ryans.

Diles had a hard time fending off blockers and attacking the ball carrier at the LOS.

I don't even know where the f$%k Greenwood was. Was he even in the game? LOL in a sad state of affairs way.

D-Ryans seemed to be overwhelmed. Running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

Eh, our entire defense was *****-slapped.

*edit: Vinny kinda beat me to my overall point

eriadoc
09-08-2008, 02:20 PM
I thought Greenwood and Diles both were slow to the ball and easily blocked yesterday. Our entire front seven was as soft as jello.

I'm inclined to agree with you moreso than Polo on this issue, but as I said, they were all so abominable, it makes evaluating a single player's performance difficult overall. In Diles' case, we'll see plenty more and get more data. In Greenwood's case, we already know what we have.

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 02:26 PM
Diles is really good at sealing off the edge on his side....I didn't see how he played that toss that Parker scored on, but overall Diles looks good IMO...

He's very strong at the point of attack...good quickness and he seems to have decent instincts...

His first responsibilty will mostly be outside contain so the fact that he was folding back inside to make a lot of those tackles is pretty good...If we can hold up better inside and force runners to try to bounce it, he'll probably have a lot more "impressive" tackles vs. "jay foremean" type tackles...

If you go back and look at Parker's scoring plays, Parker always started out as if he was going between the tackles. And only after our LBs reacted to that movement by stepping up to plug the gaps (goodness knows our D-linemen couldn't shut them off by themselves) did Parker bounce it to the outside. There should have been a corner or safety (or both) out there for contain, but more often than not, they got suckered inside too.

Someone slower than Parker couldn't have pulled that off as successfully as he; but once W.P. bounced outside with a couple of steps on the defense, no LB (and few safeties) will catch him. Well, at least none of ours.

Polo
09-08-2008, 02:30 PM
If you go back and look at Parker's scoring plays, Parker always started out as if he was going between the tackles. And only after our LBs reacted to that - by stepping up to plug the gaps - did Parker bounce it to the outside. There should have been a corner or safety (or both) out there for contain, but more often than not, they got suckered inside too.

Someone slower than Parker couldn't have pulled that off as successfully as he; but once W.P. bounced outside with a couple of steps on the defense, no LB (and few safeties) will catch him. Well, at least none of ours.

I haven't looked at any re-plays and I doubt I will, but my gametime memory tells me that was happening mostly (if not exclusively) to Greenwoods/Weavers side.

I also remember Bennett missing a tackle that allowed Parker to have a big run.

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 02:37 PM
I haven't looked at any re-plays and I doubt I will, but my gametime memory tells me that was happening mostly (if not exclusively) to Greenwoods/Weavers side.
No argument from me on that.

As painful as it will be, I'm going to rewatch the game to make sure my "gametime memory" is correct. But I recall Pittsburgh continually running up the gut - and not really getting too much - but when the RB went to the middle, suckered our d inside, then bounced it outside that's when they were most successful.

And Greenwood doesn't have the make-up speed to recover from that sort of mis-read. Actually, against Willie Parker we don't have any LB who does.

And Heaven help our D against Chris Johnson's 4.2 speed.



I also remember Bennett missing a tackle that allowed Parker to have a big run.

I remember that whiff quite vividly myself. Again, he was the only one in the area - came rushing in out of control and Parker just side-stepped him. Had he come in, under control Parker would have had to slow down and take some juke steps, giving his "help" some catch-up time.

beerlover
09-08-2008, 03:04 PM
07 Pittsburgh used both their 1st (Lawrence Timmons) & 2nd rd picks (LaMarr Woodley) on OLB's who can rush the QB. :shades:

Texan JBZ
09-08-2008, 03:14 PM
Diles is really good at sealing off the edge on his side....I didn't see how he played that toss that Parker scored on, but overall Diles looks good IMO...

He's very strong at the point of attack...good quickness and he seems to have decent instincts...

His first responsibilty will mostly be outside contain so the fact that he was folding back inside to make a lot of those tackles is pretty good...If we can hold up better inside and force runners to try to bounce it, he'll probably have a lot more "impressive" tackles vs. "jay foremean" type tackles...

Good assessment. Diles plays the Sam position which is traditionally not a position that gets a lot of tackles. I know that in the 4-3 system I played in in college, Sam LBs played a "Spill" technique on running plays at them. That is, they would take inside leverage on the blocker so that the MLB or SS could come over the top and make the tackle. The fact that he was both spilling and making the tackle on a few plays in a testament to this guy having talent. Sam's aren't supposed to be tied for the lead in tackles with the MLB. 4-3's are set up for the Mike, Will(Morlon Greenwood), and SS to make an abundant amount of the tackles. I have liked what I've seen from Zac Diles since the preseason. Morlon Greenwood will be an afterthought as soon as Adibi gets some experience under his belt. Good riddens!

Specnatz
09-08-2008, 03:15 PM
It seems the first criteria for selecting the front office, coaching staff, and players have nothing to do with what they actually are hired to do.

You are refering to the owner and yes I think he likes good citizens . Yes ... I think he'd nix a player who could help because of reputation .

okay, I see where you're going.
Tank Johnson is another excellent example.
We sure could use a guy with his talent on our D-line. But McNair wouldn't go within 250 miles of him.

WOW, I never thought I would see people wanting a bunch of low life criminals on their team. Guys that are one slip up away from being gone and then you complaining how screwed we would be with regards to the salary Cap. Jerry Jones traded for Qubert without knowing for sure he was going to be reinstated. From what I recall he gave Tank a nice fat contract with no provisions in it. Singing TO after what had happened in SanFran and Philly was IMO nuts.

RipTraxx
09-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Good assessment. Diles plays the Sam position which is traditionally not a position that gets a lot of tackles. I know that in the 4-3 system I played in in college, Sam LBs played a "Spill" technique on running plays at them. That is, they would take inside leverage on the blocker so that the MLB or SS could come over the top and make the tackle. The fact that he was both spilling and making the tackle on a few plays in a testament to this guy having talent. Sam's aren't supposed to be tied for the lead in tackles with the MLB. 4-3's are set up for the Mike, Will(Morlon Greenwood), and SS to make an abundant amount of the tackles. I have liked what I've seen from Zac Diles since the preseason. Morlon Greenwood will be an afterthought as soon as Adibi gets some experience under his belt. Good riddens!


And considering most Sams tend to be a little bigger (more taller) then what Diles is, i think he did fantastic. 7th rounder last year starting this year? I'll take it

beerlover
09-08-2008, 03:32 PM
And considering most Sams tend to be a little bigger (more taller) then what Diles is, i think he did fantastic. 7th rounder last year starting this year? I'll take it

Zach Diles natural position is a 3-4 ILB. he is a gamer/over-achiever playing SAM. yet he is leading the Texans in tackles.

RipTraxx
09-08-2008, 03:38 PM
Zach Diles natural position is a 3-4 ILB. he is a gamer/over-achiever playing SAM. yet he is leading the Texans in tackles.

Did Kansas state run a 3-4?

Hook'er
09-08-2008, 03:43 PM
I'll go a little deeper on the core problem.

The requirement of class and moral good standing is getting in the way of things.

I am not advocating rapists and murderers should be on the team or as coaches, but we need the best football players and coaches!

I agree, were soft!

beerlover
09-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Did Kansas state run a 3-4?

yes, they do.

TEXANRED
09-08-2008, 04:12 PM
Heres my feeling on the matter of our coaching staff.

If we only win 5 or 6 games this year and Wade Phillips finds himself unemployed after another 1 and done, I say we part ways with Kubiak.

If Marvin Lewis happens to find himself looking for work I say its time for a new D Co.

Kubiak has the same problem that Capers had. He is too loyal. He puts his friendships before the team.

Even Kubiaks attitude, "I need to evaluate myself." Well damn Kubiak, year three and your still doing the same things you did in year 1. Challenging plays when you shouldn't challenge, going for it when you should be punting, bad play calls, sitting people when they need to be playing, playing people when they need to be sitting.

Sure this years schedule is tougher but so what? Beating good teams is how you make it to the playoffs and win divisional games and titles.

Polo
09-08-2008, 04:19 PM
Sam's aren't supposed to be tied for the lead in tackles with the MLB. 4-3's are set up for the Mike, Will(Morlon Greenwood), and SS to make an abundant amount of the tackles. I have liked what I've seen from Zac Diles since the preseason. Morlon Greenwood will be an afterthought as soon as Adibi gets some experience under his belt. Good riddens!

Bingo.

And that has been my problem with Morlon from the getgo. As a WLB playing in the 4-3 I don't think he was ever active enough.

Since Morlon has been here I can't remember one play he's made that stands out as being outstanding. I don't even remember him making a tackle on the opponents side of the LOS.

beerlover
09-08-2008, 05:16 PM
ready to summarize our views here?


still lack talent @ key playmaking positions
need coaching to match-up better with team strengths
front office needs to address loyalty issue (Weaver, Greenwood, Green)
make adjustments don't remain married to flawed game plan
Dunta is missed
Mario is a beast but can't do it alone
if your not going to play Sage trade him (NE could net a late 1st rounder)

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 06:08 PM
ready to summarize our views here?


still lack talent @ key playmaking positions
need coaching to match-up better with team strengths
front office needs to address loyalty issue (Weaver, Greenwood, Green)
make adjustments don't remain married to flawed game plan
Dunta is missed
Mario is a beast but can't do it alone
if your not going to play Sage trade him (NE could net a late 1st rounder)


let me add another one.

someone in the locker room needs to call out his teammates when they don't perform. We have a couple of "Lead-by-Example" guys (DeMeco, A.J., Mario) which is all well and good. But we need some "Get-All-Up-In-Your-Face-When-You-Let-the-Team-Down" guys. I saw that from Mario yesterday after the 2nd or 3rd Parker TD.

Runner
09-08-2008, 07:08 PM
ready to summarize our views here?


still lack talent @ key playmaking positions
need coaching to match-up better with team strengths
front office needs to address loyalty issue (Weaver, Greenwood, Green)
make adjustments don't remain married to flawed game plan
Dunta is missed
Mario is a beast but can't do it alone
if your not going to play Sage trade him (NE could net a late 1st rounder)


This is the one I don't understand, since the front office gets consistent high praise from the fans. Something doesn't add up.

Shaft75
09-08-2008, 07:11 PM
let me add another one.

someone in the locker room needs to call out his teammates when they don't perform. We have a couple of "Lead-by-Example" guys (DeMeco, A.J., Mario) which is all well and good. But we need some "Get-All-Up-In-Your-Face-When-You-Let-the-Team-Down" guys. I saw that from Mario yesterday after the 2nd or 3rd Parker TD.


LOL, when Mario was asking Reeves WTF? I was hoping that they went to another shot, because he *****-helmet-slapped Reeves.

leebigeztx
09-08-2008, 09:33 PM
That's not it.
The Bengals have a stud QB (supposedly), two stud WRs, and are full of miscreants and they still lose

you need a defensive system that works and scouts that find guys to fit it.


Its that simple, but I don't think people really understand that. Lets look at the d-line. Mario was a no brainer, but if u watch him, he's 2 gapping. Cool. They draft okoye, but he's a classic 3 technique one gapper. If he has to raise up a find the bball, its over for him. Johnson was drafted to be a 5 technique, but he's not of that size and stregnth, but he's not explosive enough to 1 gap. Weaver is a wanna be 5 technique. Zgonia is a 2 gapper, cochran is a 1 gapper as well as kalu. Okam is a 2 gapper also. So what u see is a bunch of square pegs for a round hole so now they try to stunt the front. As soon as Kubes was the coach, the defensive ideas should have been set. Either the defense is going to 2 gap inside and let the ends get upfield or they're going to 1 gap and every guy in the front 7 is responsible for 1 gap like indy. 1 is more power like baltimore with ngata and gregg or the speed game. With the drafting of Okam, they're probably hoping to do both. Persnally, I would put Okam on the nose and have him 2 gap, put okoye on the opposite side of mario 1 gapping and let mario 1 gap wide and over front. Get weaver off the field.

ObsiWan
09-08-2008, 09:42 PM
Its that simple, but I don't think people really understand that. Lets look at the d-line. Mario was a no brainer, but if u watch him, he's 2 gapping. Cool. They draft okoye, but he's a classic 3 technique one gapper. If he has to raise up a find the bball, its over for him. Johnson was drafted to be a 5 technique, but he's not of that size and stregnth, but he's not explosive enough to 1 gap. Weaver is a wanna be 5 technique. Zgonia is a 2 gapper, cochran is a 1 gapper as well as kalu. Okam is a 2 gapper also. So what u see is a bunch of square pegs for a round hole so now they try to stunt the front. As soon as Kubes was the coach, the defensive ideas should have been set. Either the defense is going to 2 gap inside and let the ends get upfield or they're going to 1 gap and every guy in the front 7 is responsible for 1 gap like indy. 1 is more power like baltimore with ngata and gregg or the speed game. With the drafting of Okam, they're probably hoping to do both. Personally, I would put Okam on the nose and have him 2 gap, put okoye on the opposite side of mario 1 gapping and let mario 1 gap wide and over front. Get weaver off the field.

Ohmygawd!
You have a PLAN!! A defensive scheme? GASP!!

...but wait.... There's no need for a PLAN or a SCHEME
we just need better players
:sarcasm:

Seriously, we are somewhat undersized (underpowered may be more accurate) up front given the run-first, smash-mouth teams we have to regularly compete with like Tennessee and Jacksonville. If we build to go toe-to-toe with them, we should be ready to compete with most everyone else.

leebigeztx
09-08-2008, 10:14 PM
Ohmygawd!
You have a PLAN!! A defensive scheme? GASP!!

...but wait.... There's no need for a PLAN or a SCHEME
we just need better players
:sarcasm:

Seriously, we are somewhat undersized (underpowered may be more accurate) up front given the run-first, smash-mouth teams we have to regularly compete with like Tennessee and Jacksonville. If we build to go toe-to-toe with them, we should be ready to compete with most everyone else.

I do agree with the talent part big time. That's why I would have traded Sage for that 3rd and poison pilled either allen,haynesworth, suggs or even nmdadi. I believe they're headed in the right direction, but with leftwich, culpepper, mccown and guys like that out there, I would have taken the 3rd for sage, sign one of those guys as a backup. After the free agent period got going and the draft was over, they could have poison pilled one of those guys. That's how Allen got to minny. Once they showed interest and with the recent history, kc was going to get a 1st and 3 for the next yrs draft because minny was going to do a hutchins on them. Who cares what people think. If u poison pill haynesworth and tennessee matches, so what. If they don't, u give up a 1 and 3 next yr and a contract. Can u imagine Haynesworth next to mario?

beerlover
09-08-2008, 10:25 PM
I do agree with the talent part big time. That's why I would have traded Sage for that 3rd and poison pilled either allen,haynesworth, suggs or even nmdadi. I believe they're headed in the right direction, but with leftwich, culpepper, mccown and guys like that out there, I would have taken the 3rd for sage, sign one of those guys as a backup. After the free agent period got going and the draft was over, they could have poison pilled one of those guys. That's how Allen got to minny. Once they showed interest and with the recent history, kc was going to get a 1st and 3 for the next yrs draft because minny was going to do a hutchins on them. Who cares what people think. If u poison pill haynesworth and tennessee matches, so what. If they don't, u give up a 1 and 3 next yr and a contract. Can u imagine Haynesworth next to mario?

that sort of thinking is sooooo not the Texans, but I like it. the Texans have talent but its still a mixture of players who fit different systems. this might be overcome if the coaches adjust more to their players strengths, which might mean switching to a base 3-4 alingment. remember when we used to play in the 3-4 they would use 4-3 depending on the circumstance. bottom line they have to try & find something that works, since now that the season has started its going to be very difficult to upgrade any position. free agency in football is completely different than baseball or basketball & the draft is over 7 months away.

J-Russ
09-08-2008, 10:33 PM
I do agree with the talent part big time. That's why I would have traded Sage for that 3rd and poison pilled either allen,haynesworth, suggs or even nmdadi.

That 3rd rounder sure would've really came for us. We could've gotten guys like Marcus Harrison, Phillip Wheeler, Thomas Decoud, Dejuan Morgan, Jeremy Thompson with that pick.

hradhak
09-08-2008, 10:35 PM
My complaint for the front office is that player acquisition is poor in the FA / trade market. We do really well in the draft, finding great talent at many positions (not so much the prior regime). But in trades we seem to pay too much (way too much) for players who are either not good or "have talent in systems that don't suit their system". I think we need to stop trading picks for players. I think the jury is still out on Schaub, but I have a feeling we could have filled two spots with the draft picks we gave to the Falcons for him rather than the one spot we filled (or half filled) with trading for Schaub. Just keep your draft picks and use it on good talent you manage to find for cheap.

J-Russ
09-08-2008, 10:39 PM
I wouldn't say stop trading draft picks completely. Remember, we acquired Kevin Walter with a 7th rounder. But I would recommend for them to reframe from trading away high draft choices.

LonerATO
09-08-2008, 10:41 PM
That's not it.
The Bengals have a stud QB (supposedly), two stud WRs, and are full of miscreants and they still lose

you need a defensive system that works and scouts that find guys to fit it.

but they Bengals have a real crappy o-line and are starting to now only improve on the D

Goldensilence
09-08-2008, 10:44 PM
that sort of thinking is sooooo not the Texans, but I like it. the Texans have talent but its still a mixture of players who fit different systems. this might be overcome if the coaches adjust more to their players strengths, which might mean switching to a base 3-4 alingment. remember when we used to play in the 3-4 they would use 4-3 depending on the circumstance. bottom line they have to try & find something that works, since now that the season has started its going to be very difficult to upgrade any position. free agency in football is completely different than baseball or basketball & the draft is over 7 months away.

I keep hearing possibly switch to a 3-4. Who on the staff has experience with running a 3-4? While Weaver has 3-4 DE experience and Amobi might make the transition to a 3-4 DE we don't really have a big body up front at NT to really make the transition. I also think moving to a 3-4 would really waste Mario's talent.

Smith doesn't seem to have the ability to identify a player's strength and execute a semblance of a scheme in a 4-3 I cringe at the mention of him moving this team to a 3-4.

LonerATO
09-08-2008, 11:27 PM
hey i would be happy with going back to a 3-4 and using the big biscuit okam as the NT mario and Amobi on the outsized so yes i do agree with leebigeztx

leebigeztx
09-08-2008, 11:46 PM
I wouldn't say stop trading draft picks completely. Remember, we acquired Kevin Walter with a 7th rounder. But I would recommend for them to reframe from trading away high draft choices.

I like to keep picks to,but when u can get young all pro talent, that's a different story. Trading picks for buchananon and the dl guy, is different. Getting the best interior lineman I the game who's 26 or the best pass rusher with a great motor who's 26, that's a move. I don't think Minny is sad they poison pilled for hutchins who is probably the best guard in the game is worth the money and the picks. All pro game changers are worth the 2 rookies who might not even pan out.

LonerATO
09-09-2008, 12:02 AM
i can just see us taking another de next year in the first round instead of trying to get a good fa

beerlover
09-09-2008, 12:14 AM
i can just see us taking another de next year in the first round instead of trying to get a good fa

morlan greenwood was supposed to be a good fa as was Anthony Weaver, Jacques Reeves & Ahman Green, well at least they were paid like good fa :bat:

LonerATO
09-09-2008, 12:50 AM
morlan greenwood was supposed to be a good fa as was Anthony Weaver, Jacques Reeves & Ahman Green, well at least they were paid like good fa :bat:

you got me there

fikster
09-09-2008, 01:41 AM
WOW, I never thought I would see people wanting a bunch of low life criminals on their team. Guys that are one slip up away from being gone and then you complaining how screwed we would be with regards to the salary Cap. Jerry Jones traded for Qubert without knowing for sure he was going to be reinstated. From what I recall he gave Tank a nice fat contract with no provisions in it. Singing TO after what had happened in SanFran and Philly was IMO nuts.

but the Cowboys looked real good and are probably Super Bowl bound. as much as it pains me to say that, it is true. I agree with the fact that we can use some athletes on the team instead of always getting a player that is good in the locker room. i could care less how good you are in the locker room if you suck on the field.

GNTLEWOLF
09-09-2008, 03:11 AM
Front Office - What I expect from a FO is to scout well and work with the coaches to get the kind of players that the coaches want. I expect the owner to communicate with his GM and coaches, but ultimately, give them the resources to do their job and get out of the way, while keeping an eye on results. I also expect the GM to draft sensible contracts with an eye to the future. I think our FO does a pretty good job.

Talent - we are deficient. We may disagree as to how deficient we are, but we don't have the horses to beat the consistent playoff teams on any sort of a regular basis. However, all teams have to get production from less than premium talent. Furthermore, teams need to get premium production from guys that they pay a premium for. In our case, that means Travis Johnson, Anthony Weaver, Amobi Okoye, Morlon Greenwood, Ahman Green, Matt Schaub, Duane Brown, and Eric Winston have to perform well. The obvious guys also have to perform well (AJ, Mario, Ryans). However comfortable you feel with that is probably a good indicator of your true expectations for this team.

Coaching - What I expect from coaching is to see player development. Duane Brown had a rough first game. He did some good things early, but he ultimately ended up playing like a rookie. It sucks, but that's how it is. Now I want to see how he develops over the next 15 games, and over the next couple years. I want to see how Okoye, Bennett, Molden, Diles, etc. develop. Fruthermore, I expect to see a scheme that overcomes deficiencies to a point. Kubiak's offense is a perfect counterpoint to Richard Smith's defense, actually. Kubiak's offense put up over 5K yards last year despite the injuries, subpar running game, and pathetic defense. If you gave Kubiak a Pro Bowl roster on offense, he'd put together a Super Bowl offense. If you gave Richard Smith a Pro Bowl roster on defense, he might get us into the top 12, maybe? When you see the other team consistently taking advantage of mismatches, you also expect to see the defense adjust. Kubiak, to his credit, has continually tried to surround himself with coaches to help with defense. He knows offense, and you can tell he wants help on defense. He's aware of his limitations, and he works to remedy them. This year, he brought in Ray Rhodes. We'll see. So far, no good, but it's only one game.

We have a coaching deficiency, at least with Richard Smith, and possibly with Jethro Franklin and Jon Hoke. This season, their jobs would be on the line, if I were in charge.

I agree with most of your post.
I would like to add to the coaching that players should have to earn their roster spot by performance on the field and not by how many draft picks were traded to get them or how much money their contract is for.