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View Full Version : Insight into Ahman Green Signing


dtran04
08-29-2008, 11:51 PM
This is from a site that I like much better than PFT. It is from the Packers' side of thinking. Very good insight.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008/08/ahmans-rush-to-texans-is-downsized/

eriadoc
08-30-2008, 12:15 AM
The byline is Andrew Brandt:

Brandt left Woolf to join the Green Bay Packers in 1999. As Vice President with the Packers, Brandt negotiated all player contracts, managed the NFL Salary Cap and handled many other football operations for one of the most successful franchises in professional sports over that time frame, where his skillful management of the Cap and handling of player contracts was noticed throughout the NFL. Brandt left the Packers in 2008 following their hosting of the NFC Championship Game to pursue other opportunities.

The Texans do not have a good track record in free agency, under either regime. Smithiak are responsible, to some degree, for:

Ahman's money
Colvin's guaranteed money (what a waste)
Reeves (remains to be seen, but not starting out well)
Jordan Black (like Reeves, everyone in KC knew he sucked)
Schaub (gave up a lot, but looking good so far - if this one bombs, they're gone, I think)
Jeb Putzier
Flanagan (again, Packers and fans knew he was washed up, and we overpaid)

They've been money in the draft, but free agency has not gone well, IMO.

Allstar
08-30-2008, 12:26 AM
The byline is Andrew Brandt:



The Texans do not have a good track record in free agency, under either regime. Smithiak are responsible, to some degree, for:

Ahman's money
Colvin's guaranteed money (what a waste)
Reeves (remains to be seen, but not starting out well)
Jordan Black (like Reeves, everyone in KC knew he sucked)
Schaub (gave up a lot, but looking good so far - if this one bombs, they're gone, I think)
Jeb Putzier
Flanagan (again, Packers and fans knew he was washed up, and we overpaid)

They've been money in the draft, but free agency has not gone well, IMO.

We should stick to the low budget guys that can play like Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Earl Cochran and Will Demps. Of course it's easier said than done.

eriadoc
08-30-2008, 12:56 AM
We should stick to the low budget guys that can play like Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Earl Cochran and Will Demps. Of course it's easier said than done.

To be sure, Smithiak have had their fair share of low-budget, high-impact free agents. In addition to the ones you mentioned, I'd say we got our money's worth from Anthony Maddox as well. There have been a few special teams guys that have contributed that were under the radar signings as well. Nonetheless, it's the big dollar impact that is going to make or break Smithiak's legacy.

And I don't know how I forgot him, but Jameel Cook. I don't know what his contract terms were, so I'll go easy. Plus, he has contributed some.

ChampionTexan
08-30-2008, 01:12 AM
To be sure, Smithiak have had their fair share of low-budget, high-impact free agents. In addition to the ones you mentioned, I'd say we got our money's worth from Anthony Maddox as well. There have been a few special teams guys that have contributed that were under the radar signings as well. Nonetheless, it's the big dollar impact that is going to make or break Smithiak's legacy.
And I don't know how I forgot him, but Jameel Cook. I don't know what his contract terms were, so I'll go easy. Plus, he has contributed some.

Actually, it's the W-L record that's going to make or break the legacy. It's certainly not unheard of for teams to be successful without high-profile FA signings. Just look at the last three Super Bowl winners. (And you forgot Weaver in the list of bad/questionable signings).

Texanmike02
08-30-2008, 01:32 AM
Nonetheless, it's the big dollar impact that is going to make or break Smithiak's legacy.


You really think so? I think that if they turn a 2-14 team into a perennial playoff team in 4 years (meaning they make the playoffs next year and keep doing so for a while) that will define their legacy. The only real bad signing was Weaver. I hated Green signing, but it was a risk. We were looking at a situation where we weren't a playoff team but needed a guy for 2-3 years. We can cut him next year and it won't kill us. Had he come in and given us even just 1000 yards it would have been brilliant. Reeves is a band aid. We didn't break the bank for him. AND finally, about the time we're ready to really make a playoff run, we're going to have them off the books. We weren't going to attract the cream of the crop to Houston when any of those signings were there. We had to pay more than anyone else did. Weaver was the exception. But the other examples noted aren't going to hamper the franchise in 2 or 3 years when this team matures. If Smith had taken over a 9-7 team, ready to make a push, none of those players were going to be on our radar. They would be looking to go to a 2-14 team for a payday. What's important, is we have done the things we need to do to change the perception of the franchise. Yeah, we have work to do on defense, but we're not the debacle we were before they took over. Teams no longer highlight the Saturday before our game for the annual golf tournament.

Mike

eriadoc
08-30-2008, 02:13 AM
Well, to clarify, I think the high-dollar FA signings that don't work out have a huge impact on the W-L column. So in the end, yeah. The W-L record is going to always be the only thing that matters, but in the NFL, you don't get a ton of Ws without making smart decisions at all levels. Smithiak's draft decisions are what's been carrying the day.

I am a big fan of our FO right now, but the FA stuff can't be overlooked.

beerlover
08-30-2008, 04:03 AM
would anyone complain if Ahman exercised his options by actually staying healthy & becoming the workhorse expected from once upon a time in Green Bay...........:splits:

oh yeah cheese heads, the best contracts are those sometimes never exercised..........see Brett Farve :gun:

mancunian
08-30-2008, 04:23 AM
Well, to clarify, I think the high-dollar FA signings that don't work out have a huge impact on the W-L column. So in the end, yeah. The W-L record is going to always be the only thing that matters, but in the NFL, you don't get a ton of Ws without making smart decisions at all levels. Smithiak's draft decisions are what's been carrying the day.

I am a big fan of our FO right now, but the FA stuff can't be overlooked.
I'm with you on that, the current FO have moved us from 2- 14 team to 8 - 8 in two years. Sure there have been pretty dodgy FA signing but we're not the only team to do that.
The Bears signed Mushin Muhammed as a FA in 2005 and was awful. Dropped passes, threw his team mates under the bus and refused to acknowledge his part in the failures of the team.

Grams
08-30-2008, 06:39 AM
The byline is Andrew Brandt:



The Texans do not have a good track record in free agency, under either regime. Smithiak are responsible, to some degree, for:

Ahman's money
Colvin's guaranteed money (what a waste)
Reeves (remains to be seen, but not starting out well)
Jordan Black (like Reeves, everyone in KC knew he sucked)
Schaub (gave up a lot, but looking good so far - if this one bombs, they're gone, I think)
Jeb Putzier
Flanagan (again, Packers and fans knew he was washed up, and we overpaid)

They've been money in the draft, but free agency has not gone well, IMO.

Ahman's money - did he not just restructure his contract?
Colvin - maybe he doesn't fit into our system, but how do you know that with his experience he hasn't maybe helped some of the younger guys on defense during TC?
Reeves - well - umm - well - he did have that Saint's receiver covered - he just didn't find the ball to knock it away. About the only nice thing I can say. Did not like this signing at all.
Jordan Black - probably better than nobody to fill in - good thing we didnot need him much.
Schaub - the minute he threw his first pass, you knew we have a serious upgrade over YKW. I doubt many would get up uninjured after being pile driven into the ground by Haneworth.
Putzier - again an experienced player - may not have helped on the field, but may have helped teaching the younger new guys
Flanagan - again - better than nobody but experienced.

Weaver - was he not a product of the previous regime?

What about Andre Davis - was he not a decent pickup? or Demps? or Walter, Even the RB - (I am having a senior moment and can not think of his name) didn't gain many yards a carry - but he usually always gained a few.

We have not been one of the better teams that the better level of players want to come here - yet. I think they are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. I don't think that FA's pick ups are going to make or break them. It will be the W-L records and making the playoffs that do.

thunderkyss
08-30-2008, 08:39 AM
From a players perspective, the 45 man roster bonus thing is BS. Especially if the injuries I'm experiencing are because I gave them S.O.B.s 110% every time I was on the field. Saying that, I can completely understand Ahman and his agent demanding that no restrictions to health be put into any deal he worked out with the Packers.

I understand Houston excluding that from the contract as well, it seems that is what pushed Ahman to signing with us. It's not like we were a winning franchise at the time. We had to show Ahman our dedication towards winning.

Now, I feel bad for ever saying anything negative about Ahman Green. That he was willing to renegotiate his contract, under the radar(no front page news, no training camp holdout) shows me, his commitment to be on the field. Injuries happen, and when they do, we fans have a dispicable habit of blaming that player.

I can understand us fans focusing our attention/blame on Smithiak... we told them not to do it.. we knew it was a bad deal... we said he was too old... blah, blah, blah. But we are trying to build a winner in Houston, so I understand taking the chance.

Heck, I still like the Chris Brown signing, actually. I'd like it a lot more, if we can get him on the field. But once we have our running back factory operational, when we've got a steady stream of OLmen coming from the practice squad to the second team, to the starting lineup... then we can throw any running back on the field. Until then, I like the Smithiak approach of looking for value in veteran runningbacks. Though I wouldn't necessarily put all my eggs in the injury value basket... I'd have kept Shipp, and dropped Brown. But that's me.

Specnatz
08-30-2008, 09:47 AM
The byline is Andrew Brandt:



The Texans do not have a good track record in free agency, under either regime. Smithiak are responsible, to some degree, for:

Ahman's money
Colvin's guaranteed money (what a waste)
Reeves (remains to be seen, but not starting out well)Jordan Black (like Reeves, everyone in KC knew he sucked)
Schaub (gave up a lot, but looking good so far - if this one bombs, they're gone, I think)
Jeb Putzier
Flanagan (again, Packers and fans knew he was washed up, and we overpaid)

They've been money in the draft, but free agency has not gone well, IMO.

The only two Rick Smith has been a part of.

Schuab trade was a must, unless you wanted to draft a QB and wait three years or in the case of vy have the same issues all over again except with ut folks blaming everything and everyone but the qb.

ObsiWan
08-30-2008, 09:50 AM
Ahman's money - did he not just restructure his contract?
Colvin - maybe he doesn't fit into our system, but how do you know that with his experience he hasn't maybe helped some of the younger guys on defense during TC?
Reeves - well - umm - well - he did have that Saint's receiver covered - he just didn't find the ball to knock it away. About the only nice thing I can say. Did not like this signing at all.
Jordan Black - probably better than nobody to fill in - good thing we didnot need him much.
Schaub - the minute he threw his first pass, you knew we have a serious upgrade over YKW. I doubt many would get up uninjured after being pile driven into the ground by Haneworth.
Putzier - again an experienced player - may not have helped on the field, but may have helped teaching the younger new guys
Flanagan - again - better than nobody but experienced.

Weaver - was he not a product of the previous regime?

What about Andre Davis - was he not a decent pickup? or Demps? or Walter, Even the RB - (I am having a senior moment and can not think of his name) [Ron Dayne??] didn't gain many yards a carry - but he usually always gained a few.

We have not been one of the better teams that the better level of players want to come here - yet. I think they are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. I don't think that FA's pick ups are going to make or break them. It will be the W-L records and making the playoffs that do.

Excellent post. I was about to make the same points. When you're tallying up the F/A score, don't just count the "big names". Count 'em all and check to see who contributed and who's still starting along with the "misses".

I figure Smithiak is batting at least .500. That's a helluva lot better than the last set of FO yay-hoos.

Maybe I'm projecting my own thought processes here; but I think Smithiak use F/As for placeholders until they can draft (and develop) guys that they really want. You can tell that by the way the contracts are structured. Looks to me like they pony up as little guaranteed money as they can get away with. If the F/A turns into a stud, he gets a better deal. If he doesn't, he gets let go with minimal (by NFL stds) impact.
I mean, we haven't had any Daniel Snyder-type screw ups. The "misses" we've had are minor by comparison to those.

nunusguy
08-30-2008, 11:19 AM
"some of the best deals are the ones that are not made."
***********************
Something to keep in mind. And the article is a good read with a thoughtful effort by the author IMO.

ObsiWan
08-30-2008, 11:27 AM
Heck, I still like the Chris Brown signing, actually. I'd like it a lot more, if we can get him on the field. But once we have our running back factory operational, when we've got a steady stream of OLmen coming from the practice squad to the second team, to the starting lineup... then we can throw any running back on the field. Until then, I like the Smithiak approach of looking for value in veteran runningbacks. Though I wouldn't necessarily put all my eggs in the injury value basket... I'd have kept Shipp, and dropped Brown. But that's me.

Yeah... me too.
But if Brown goes, perhaps Darius comes back.
We still need another pass rusher.

ObsiWan
08-30-2008, 11:29 AM
"some of the best deals are the ones that are not made."
***********************
Something to keep in mind. And the article is a good read with a thoughtful effort by the author IMO.

what article?

And how you gonna know if you have a good plan if you never pull the trigger

CloakNNNdagger
08-30-2008, 12:12 PM
what article?

And how you gonna know if you have a good plan if you never pull the trigger

Here's an indirect link to the article (http://www.operationsports.com/forums/pro-football/265970-interesting-article-contract-texans-rb-ahman-green-signed-last-offseason.html) that Nunusguy was referring to.

Grams
08-30-2008, 12:52 PM
Yes - Ron Dayne - thank you ObsiWan.

BornOrange
08-30-2008, 01:22 PM
Excellent post. I was about to make the same points. When you're tallying up the F/A score, don't just count the "big names". Count 'em all and check to see who contributed and who's still starting along with the "misses".

I figure Smithiak is batting at least .500. That's a helluva lot better than the last set of FO yay-hoos.

Maybe I'm projecting my own thought processes here; but I think Smithiak use F/As for placeholders until they can draft (and develop) guys that they really want. You can tell that by the way the contracts are structured. Looks to me like they pony up as little guaranteed money as they can get away with. If the F/A turns into a stud, he gets a better deal. If he doesn't, he gets let go with minimal (by NFL stds) impact.
I mean, we haven't had any Daniel Snyder-type screw ups. The "misses" we've had are minor by comparison to those.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

As time passes, the Texans will sign fewer free agents and will save their money for re-signing their own draftees.

thunderkyss
08-30-2008, 01:34 PM
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

As time passes, the Texans will sign fewer free agents and will save their money for re-signing their own draftees.

It is stupid to just ignore the FA market.

CloakNNNdagger
08-30-2008, 02:44 PM
It is stupid to just ignore the FA market.

That's absolutely right.........there has got to be a calculated "relative" balance. Make smarter draft pics and their associated contracts, and use the extra money for picking smarter FA signings and their associated contracts. The former makes you less dependent, not independent, on the latter.

kozanack
08-30-2008, 06:51 PM
Maybe I'm projecting my own thought processes here; but I think Smithiak use F/As for placeholders until they can draft (and develop) guys that they really want.

I think you are right-on. The point isn't to conserve the owner's money. The point is to win games. The Texans had so many holes, they couldn't fill them quickly through the draft. So they needed to dip into the free agent market. Because they didn't have good team, they had to overpay for mediocre talent. Ultimately, they are winning more games, and the roster is getting deeper. Going into last season, the starting line-up was good, but many positions were questionable, and depth was dicey. Going into the 2008 season, the roster is deeper, and ey are still one draft awaythere are fewer questions.

ObsiWan
08-30-2008, 08:06 PM
Here's an indirect link to the article (http://www.operationsports.com/forums/pro-football/265970-interesting-article-contract-texans-rb-ahman-green-signed-last-offseason.html) that Nunusguy was referring to.

Thanks. It was a good read; confirmed some stuff that had been rolling around in the back of my mind. I thought both Ahman and Flanagan were Sherman's picks as much, if not more, than Kubiak's.