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Joe Texan
08-18-2008, 01:31 PM
Yep thats me chomping on the crow over Sage being better than Matt. If we get the production from Matt for the remainder of theis season like we got saturday night then he hands down deserves the starting job. I know I was all in Sages corner but Matt just took it to the bank and deposited a gem.
So if all you I told you so's need to pile on me as I enjoy the crow feathers and all, then here ya go, let me have it.

Sideline
08-18-2008, 01:33 PM
If we get the production from Matt for the remainder of theis season like we got saturday night then he hands down deserves the starting job.

If we get production from Matt this season like we did Saturday then he will be deserving a Pro Bowl to go along with his starting job....Sorry may be getting a little ahead of myself there. lol.

gtexan02
08-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I think Matt is better than Sage. But lets not forget the Saints had the 32 ranked pass defense last season

Texan Asylum
08-18-2008, 02:17 PM
Yep thats me chomping on the crow over Sage being better than Matt. If we get the production from Matt for the remainder of theis season like we got saturday night then he hands down deserves the starting job. I know I was all in Sages corner but Matt just took it to the bank and deposited a gem.
So if all you I told you so's need to pile on me as I enjoy the crow feathers and all, then here ya go, let me have it.


I believe we ALL have had to eat crow at some point in time rooting for the Texans. :texflag: :shades:

thunderkyss
08-18-2008, 02:34 PM
I believe we ALL have had to eat crow at some point in time rooting for the Texans. :texflag: :shades:

True dat......

I won't be able to watch the game, till I get home tonight. So I still haven't seen Matt do anything that would make him "special".


I never said Sage was better than Matt...... only that they were both good enough to get the job done. I hope Matt does separate himself in 2008.

ubecool454
08-18-2008, 02:38 PM
Yep thats me chomping on the crow over Sage being better than Matt. If we get the production from Matt for the remainder of theis season like we got saturday night then he hands down deserves the starting job. I know I was all in Sages corner but Matt just took it to the bank and deposited a gem.
So if all you I told you so's need to pile on me as I enjoy the crow feathers and all, then here ya go, let me have it.

Its ok...thats why Kubiak is the coach and you are not..lol. I always liked Schaub since seeing him play at UVA. The guy is heady and laid back. He doesn't have the strongest arm but if Andre/Andre/Walter like him...then I love him. :fans:

ubecool454
08-18-2008, 02:40 PM
I believe we ALL have had to eat crow at some point in time rooting for the Texans. :texflag: :shades:

NEVER! NOT ME..lol

Tedc
08-18-2008, 02:41 PM
so if all you i told you so's need to pile on me as i enjoy the crow feathers and all, then here ya go, let me have it.

itys!

cuppacoffee
08-18-2008, 02:41 PM
I believe we ALL have had to eat crow at some point in time rooting for the Texans. :texflag: :shades:


Not me!

Although I did support Da .... :thinking:

aw...never mind. :redface:

Pass the salt and pepper.

:coffee:

Brandon420tx
08-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Greenwood has made me eat crow a few times. He's also made me spit it back out, I wish he would make up his mind.

ubecool454
08-18-2008, 02:43 PM
Greenwood has made me eat crow a few times. He's also made me spit it back out, I wish he would make up his mind.

Was it me or does Greenwood look very fat and very slow now?

Texan Asylum
08-18-2008, 02:47 PM
Not me!

Although I did support Da .... :thinking:

aw...never mind. :redface:

Pass the salt and pepper.

:coffee:

Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

That 'name we shall not mention'...me too!

err...uhmmm, would you pass that when you're done Cup!

Mr PC
08-18-2008, 02:56 PM
I have seen many posts similar to this, all because one preseason performance. Schaub did look good vs the Saints playing the "lets throw at Jason David" game. But now everybody is jumping on his nuts because of one preseason game? If Sage happened to look better than Matt, the first thing I would expect to hear is "its just a preseason game." Now people are talking about Matt as a top 5 QB and comparing him to Tom Brady because he had a good preseason game.

Brandon420tx
08-18-2008, 02:57 PM
Shun the non-believer!!!

Hahaha jk

Vinnie
08-18-2008, 03:00 PM
I believe we ALL have had to eat crow at some point in time rooting for the Texans. :texflag: :shades:

I'm surprised crow isn't on the endangered species list thanks to Mario Williams!

thunderkyss
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
I have seen many posts similar to this, all because one preseason performance. Schaub did look good vs the Saints playing the "lets throw at Jason David" game. But now everybody is jumping on his nuts because of one preseason game? If Sage happened to look better than Matt, the first thing I would expect to hear is "its just a preseason game." Now people are talking about Matt as a top 5 QB and comparing him to Tom Brady because he had a good preseason game.

I think you need to define "everybody"

Hooston Texan
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Yep thats me chomping on the crow over Sage being better than Matt. If we get the production from Matt for the remainder of theis season like we got saturday night then he hands down deserves the starting job. I know I was all in Sages corner but Matt just took it to the bank and deposited a gem.
So if all you I told you so's need to pile on me as I enjoy the crow feathers and all, then here ya go, let me have it.

If Matt produces in every game like he did against the Saints . . . he'll be the greatest QB who ever played. Nobody goes 14-for-16, 183, 2td's all the time (actually, it was 14-for-14 not counting Davis's drop and the throwaway Matt was forced in to when the screen pass was foiled), so I hope that's not the bar you are setting for what Matt has to do to definitively justify the trade and starting over Sage.

As a longtime, long-suffering UVA fan, I like to think of myself as the driver of the Matt Schaub bandwagon. I've been sold on his play since 2002. But what remains to be seen is whether he can survive an NFL season. At some point, the guy who can play all the time should start over the superior but physically-questionable player. Continuity is very important. Yes, the hits that hurt Schaub (apart from the Odom sack) were highly illegal, but we know that gutter-thugs like Albert Haynesworth and Drayton Florence would gladly give the 15 yards to knock Matt out again. Defensive coordinators everywhere would be greatful if they did.

Believe me, when it is time for the doubters to eat their bad-trade/start-Sage crow, I'll be the waiter. But I'm not sure dinner is served quite yet.

Hervoyel
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Rep to anyone who admits to being wrong. One game doesn't prove it but that was a heck of a game.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2008, 03:02 PM
I'll wait to call judgement until after the Girls game. If Schaub does separate himself, I still believe that Sage can pick up where Schaub leaves off if he gets injured later in the season. One thing not to forget (no seems to forget this in the hot RB competition discussions), when trying to judge the better of 2 players, you need to also factor in their ability to stay on the field. That ability can offset some minor deficiencies amongst players.

thunderkyss
08-18-2008, 03:03 PM
Rep to anyone who admits to being wrong. One game doesn't prove it but that was a heck of a game.

Can't wait to see it:scarygirl:

76Texan
08-18-2008, 03:13 PM
If Matt produces in every game like he did against the Saints . . . he'll be the greatest QB who ever played. Nobody goes 14-for-16, 183, 2td's all the time (actually, it was 14-for-14 not counting Davis's drop and the throwaway Matt was forced in to when the screen pass was foiled), so I hope that's not the bar you are setting for what Matt has to do to definitively justify the trade and starting over Sage.

As a longtime, long-suffering UVA fan, I like to think of myself as the driver of the Matt Schaub bandwagon. I've been sold on his play since 2002. But what remains to be seen is whether he can survive an NFL season. At some point, the guy who can play all the time should start over the superior but physically-questionable player. Continuity is very important. Yes, the hits that hurt Schaub (apart from the Odom sack) were highly illegal, but we know that gutter-thugs like Albert Haynesworth and Drayton Florence would gladly give the 15 yards to knock Matt out again. Defensive coordinators everywhere would be greatful if they did.

Believe me, when it is time for the doubters to eat their bad-trade/start-Sage crow, I'll be the waiter. But I'm not sure dinner is served quite yet.

A.D. did not drop that pass. A LB tipped the ball. If he's a bit taller or can jump higher, it might have been a pick.
(It's still a good throw by MS.)

It has been MHO that MS is better suited for the WCO than Sage.
However, Sage has proved that he can play under pressure better than Schaub, and that he's more durable up to this point.

I'm glad we have both.
And I'm also glad to watch the battle between Shane and Alex as well.

SheTexan
08-18-2008, 03:14 PM
I'll wait to call judgement until after the Girls game. If Schaub does separate himself, I still believe that Sage can pick up where Schaub leaves off if he gets injured later in the season. One thing not to forget (no seems to forget this in the hot RB competition discussions), when trying to judge the better of 2 players, you need to also factor in their ability to stay on the field. That ability can offset some minor deficiencies amongst players.

Bingo! ONE good game does not define the season. I've always believed Matt should be #1, but, that was simply because Kubes picked him. I have MADE myself believe in KUBES simply because after six years of living with my head in a hole, I HAVE to believe in something! Hanging on by a thread, and hoping that game against the Saints was only the beginning for Matt.

Ole Miss Texan
08-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Cool that your coming out and saying this but he's going to have to show us during the regular season that he can stay healthy and be a good quarterback. I loved the addition of Schaub and think he's going to do well here and yes... he is better than Sage and he should be our starter over Sage. That's not to say Sage is bad, our offense doesn't miss a beat when he comes in. I love the fact that we have two good qb's who both fit this team really really well.

I also think that the Matt Schaub and Andre Johnson combo is absolutely beautiful. The just seem to click extremely well and when the connect, it's like watching something we've never seen on our team before. I'm not saying Schaub is better than Peyton or Brady... but I'm saying when Schaub and AJ connect for a deep touchdown, it's the best looking combo in the whole league. It's prettier than Brady to Moss or Manning to Wayne... Schaub to AJ is absolutely awesome.

EDIT: Just watch every single play from this. Although some admittedly are of Sage... I just get carried away with how good Andre Johnson is... what were we talking about again!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yho0vrym2b8

If Schaub and AJ are healthy the entire year.... oh man!

brakos82
08-18-2008, 03:26 PM
It's like watching something we've never seen on our team before.

That's not a fair comparison to Mr. Mittens... :foottap:

HOU-TEX
08-18-2008, 03:29 PM
A.D. did not drop that pass. A LB tipped the ball. If he's a bit taller or can jump higher, it might have been a pick.
(It's still a good throw by MS.)

It has been MHO that MS is better suited for the WCO than Sage.
However, Sage has proved that he can play under pressure better than Schaub, and that he's more durable up to this point.

I'm glad we have both.
And I'm also glad to watch the battle between Shane and Alex as well.

Yes, the ball was tipped. Yes, AD dropped the ball.

The ball still hit AD square in the hands after the tip. IMO, if the ball hits your hands, it should be caught.

And no, I'm not ragging on AD.

:fans:

Malloy
08-18-2008, 03:29 PM
Rep to anyone who admits to being wrong. One game doesn't prove it but that was a heck of a game.

Tough one... ;)

hadaad
08-18-2008, 03:35 PM
Bah. Emotions run high, everyone wants to get behind their guy. We've got them both, they're both really good. No point in eating crow, just enjoy the ride.

76Texan
08-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Yes, the ball was tipped. Yes, AD dropped the ball.

The ball still hit AD square in the hands after the tip. IMO, if the ball hits your hands, it should be caught.

And no, I'm not ragging on AD.

:fans:
I don't think it's that easy, HOU-TEX! :specnatz:

But anyway, that's a judgement call.

If you expect our receivers to field that ball 100% of the time, I think we would have the number one receiving corp of all time! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Polo
08-18-2008, 03:55 PM
Matt's a very good QB, but I think folks are reading a little too much into his Saints performance...

I really didn't see him do anything I didn't already think he could do...

I'd like to see him consitently play at an elite level...I think he can...

dalemurphy
08-18-2008, 04:05 PM
Yes, the ball was tipped. Yes, AD dropped the ball.

The ball still hit AD square in the hands after the tip. IMO, if the ball hits your hands, it should be caught.
And no, I'm not ragging on AD. Shit happens

:fans:


That's ridiculous! You know not of what you speak.

As a general rule of thumb, sure. However, I could come up with 10 scenarios where that obviously isn't true- and, trying to catch a ball that has been deflected on to a different flight path 5 yards in front of you, in the deep middle of the field would be one of those exceptions. Clearly!

HOU-TEX
08-18-2008, 04:22 PM
That's ridiculous! You know not of what you speak.

As a general rule of thumb, sure. However, I could come up with 10 scenarios where that obviously isn't true- and, trying to catch a ball that has been deflected on to a different flight path 5 yards in front of you, in the deep middle of the field would be one of those exceptions. Clearly!

It was a dropped ball. The ball hit his hands and hit the ground. Did it not?

I'm not sure why I even responded to you. I mean, if you're right all the time, why question you. LMAO!

Anywho, like I said

Good day! :tiphat:

Polo
08-18-2008, 04:24 PM
HOU-TEX is right...

He shoulda caught the ball...

If you go back and look, he tried to turn and run before he had secured the catch...

76Texan
08-18-2008, 04:28 PM
HOU-TEX is right...

He shoulda caught the ball...

If you go back and look, he tried to turn and run before he had secured the catch...
We can also say that he tried to turn and run because he didn't think that the ball would be tipped. That is, if the ball wasn't tipped, it probably would have been a big play.

Double Barrel
08-18-2008, 04:28 PM
I say it every year: pre-season is fool's gold.

While I am in Matt's corner (and Sage's for that matter), the proof will be in the regular season. I want to see 4 qtrs. of consistent football week after week before drinking to much koolaide. But damn, I am thirsty!...

ObsiWan
08-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Bah. Emotions run high, everyone wants to get behind their guy. We've got them both, they're both really good. No point in eating crow, just enjoy the ride.

Amen.

Ole Miss Texan
08-18-2008, 04:43 PM
As long as we're coming clean... I'll admit I was severly wrong about DC... thought we just needed to get the team better. ouch.

And Ahman Green. I was excited about this pick up. I understood the risk because he was 'injury prone' but I never thought it'd be this bad.

I never really put much thought into D. Anderson but thought we could of done better. Thought he was just a coach's pick cuz he liked the guy and knew him from Col. st. but I love the kid now. With Marques Colston being picked right after him, I was thinking that would have been awesome (TE / WR type of combo) but I really really like Anderson and he was well worth that 7th rounder.

ReliantTexan
08-18-2008, 04:59 PM
That's ridiculous! You know not of what you speak.

As a general rule of thumb, sure. However, I could come up with 10 scenarios where that obviously isn't true- and, trying to catch a ball that has been deflected on to a different flight path 5 yards in front of you, in the deep middle of the field would be one of those exceptions. Clearly!Dude, the ball landed right in his bread basket,and he should have caught it. Did it suddenly change direction, yes, but still, he's an NFL receiver who is supposed to make those catches. And I can almost guarantee you that he thinks he should of caught it as well.

dalemurphy
08-18-2008, 05:04 PM
It was a dropped ball. The ball hit his hands and hit the ground. Did it not?

I'm not sure why I even responded to you. I mean, if you're right all the time, why question you. LMAO!

Anywho, like I said

Good day! :tiphat:


Are you really going to stand behind your statement that a receiver should catch a ball every time it hits their hands?:

How about:

1. I stand 1 yard from you and throw a ball as hard as I can into your hands- sure it breaks your fingers and you didn't have time to react, but, "the ball hit your hands and then hit the ground".

2. As a receiver leaps for a ball and grabs it with both hands, a 260 lb linebacker slams him face mask to face mask into a safety on the back side who slaps the ball from his outstretched hands. "The ball hit his hands and then hit the ground" so I guess he should have caught it?

Of course their are exceptions to that elementary rule of yours. Among thos exceptions would be when a ball's flight path and speed are altered right in front of you.

I assume you've never played football at a high level- particlulary receiver... It's quite different than standing around playing catch in the street. The speed of the game dramatically changes the experience and fans look pretty foolish when they make over-simplified critiques like "it hit his hands so he should have caught it". Trying running full speed between defenders also running full speed and catching a ball coming at you at 70 mph, only to have it deflected off course and decreased to 40 mph 5 yards in front of you.

xcomputerman
08-18-2008, 05:07 PM
I thought Schaub clearly demonstrated himself to be one of the better quarterbacks in the league at the start of last season ... before everyone started dropping like flies.

That said, Jason David was the best Texans QB on Saturday.

dalemurphy
08-18-2008, 05:09 PM
Dude, the ball landed right in his bread basket,and he should have caught it. Did it suddenly change direction, yes, but still, he's an NFL receiver who is supposed to make those catches. And I can almost guarantee you that he thinks he should of caught it as well.


A professional athlete striving to become even better at his craft being critical of a play he felt he should have made is not the same thing as some dopey fan saying "he should've caught it cuz it hit his hands, and it's a drop anytime it hits your hands and you don't catch it".

Great players feel they should make any play they're capable of making. Of course, AD could've caught the ball. However, the error on that play wasn't his- it was Schaub for the underthrow. And, the expectation on the field wouldn't be for that catch to be made most of the time- certainly the staff didn't spend time with AD telling him what he did wrong there.

HOU-TEX
08-18-2008, 05:13 PM
Are you really going to stand behind your statement that a receiver should catch a ball every time it hits their hands?:

How about:

1. I stand 1 yard from you and throw a ball as hard as I can into your hands- sure it breaks your fingers and you didn't have time to react, but, "the ball hit your hands and then hit the ground".

2. As a receiver leaps for a ball and grabs it with both hands, a 260 lb linebacker slams him face mask to face mask into a safety on the back side who slaps the ball from his outstretched hands. "The ball hit his hands and then hit the ground" so I guess he should have caught it?

Of course their are exceptions to that elementary rule of yours. Among thos exceptions would be when a ball's flight path and speed are altered right in front of you.

I assume you've never played football at a high level- particlulary receiver... It's quite different than standing around playing catch in the street. The speed of the game dramatically changes the experience and fans look pretty foolish when they make over-simplified critiques like "it hit his hands so he should have caught it". Trying running full speed between defenders also running full speed and catching a ball coming at you at 70 mph, only to have it deflected off course and decreased to 40 mph 5 yards in front of you.

OMG! Dude, get over yourself.

I've played plenty of football thank you very little. If you'd like to know how long, do a search.

IMO, the ball should've been caught. If you don't agree....fine, I don't give a damn....move along .

hadaad
08-18-2008, 05:13 PM
I thought Schaub clearly demonstrated himself to be one of the better quarterbacks in the league at the start of last season ... before everyone started dropping like flies.

I agree with you to a certain extent. He did come out swinging, but he seemed to fall apart around the goalline. Hopefully that will go away. I mean, I'm all for Kris Brown and special teams, but I'm more all for scoring touchdowns instead of field goals.

brakos82
08-18-2008, 05:27 PM
So, if a Ravens fan has to eat crow, are they cannibals? :thinking:

Texan_Bill
08-18-2008, 05:31 PM
So, if a Ravens fan has to eat crow, are they cannibals? :thinking:

:hmmm:

Good question..........

Joe Texan
08-18-2008, 05:35 PM
So, if a Ravens fan has to eat crow, are they cannibals?

Nope



I am not throwing Sage under the bus, I believe he can start for any team in the NFL. I am simply eating my crow when I was saying that Sage should have the starting job here against Matt. I am thrilled that we have Sage as a backup and I look foreward to Matt finishing the season healthy. I do know he is still unproven but his play against the aints was exactly what we have never seen as a texan fan watching our QB.
My Idea of a QB contraversey is quashed. Matt is the Starting QB and he deserves to be there.

Texan_Bill
08-18-2008, 05:36 PM
My Idea of a QB contraversey is quashed. Matt is the Starting QB and he deserves to be there.

Holy jumped up balded headed Jesus palamino......

ReliantTexan
08-18-2008, 05:38 PM
and it's a drop anytime it hits your hands and you don't catch it".

I diagree. If a pass hits you in the numbers and you don't catch it, technichally it is a "Drop" . Now I can understand if he was hit right as the ball got their or he had to fully extend and the ball was on his fingertips (I wouldn't expect him to make the catch),but neither are the case. IMO, he should have caught that ball, I've seen him make catches alot tougher than that. But I know he can't make great catches every play.

Wolf
08-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Rep to anyone who admits to being wrong. One game doesn't prove it but that was a heck of a game.

Herv,Herv Herv .. I got a thread for ya :heh:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26735&highlight=wrong

Dread-Head
08-18-2008, 11:45 PM
Rep to anyone who admits to being wrong. One game doesn't prove it but that was a heck of a game.


I STILL support Rosenfels. Schaub had a great game, but lets me honest here. He's NOT a bad QB by any stretch of the imagination. I just think that Sage is the superior QB because:

1. Sage can take a hit better than Schaub.

2. Sage seems a bit quicker from the pocket.

3. Both men were CAREER backups until they made it to Houston. Rosenfels backed up Carr, Schaub backed up Vick but face it they were BOTH career back ups.

Personally I think the starting position is still in the air. One great performance does NOT a starter make especially if that one game is a PRESEASON game.

GuerillaBlack
08-18-2008, 11:56 PM
Nope

I am not throwing Sage under the bus, I believe he can start for any team in the NFL. I am simply eating my crow when I was saying that Sage should have the starting job here against Matt. I am thrilled that we have Sage as a backup and I look foreward to Matt finishing the season healthy. I do know he is still unproven but his play against the aints was exactly what we have never seen as a texan fan watching our QB.
My Idea of a QB contraversey is quashed. Matt is the Starting QB and he deserves to be there.

Any team? Nah. Maybe a couple though (Raiders, Bears, those types of teams). But you're right, Matt is clearly the better QB and definitely should be the starter.

Dread-Head
08-18-2008, 11:57 PM
OMG! Dude, get over yourself.

I've played plenty of football thank you very little. If you'd like to know how long, do a search.

IMO, the ball should've been caught. If you don't agree....fine, I don't give a damn....move along .

In your defense...I've seen Ernest Givens make catches KNOWING he was about to get obliterated by DB's and safeties twice his size. He played without fear and most of the time if it was near his hands...he made the catch. Likewise, Steve Largent was so reliable that you could almost set a watch by him and lest we not forget Mr. Jerry Rice.
You know I remember one game which has made dozens of high light reels where the Raiders were playing the Vikings. A Vikings' receiver made a catch and 1/4th of a second later he was hit so hard by two Raiders that his helmet popped off like the cork on a champagne bottle and he was knocked unconscious. AMAZINGLY....he held on to the football.

dalemurphy
08-18-2008, 11:59 PM
I STILL support Rosenfels. Schaub had a great game, but lets me honest here. He's NOT a bad QB by any stretch of the imagination. I just think that Sage is the superior QB because:

1. Sage can take a hit better than Schaub.

2. Sage seems a bit quicker from the pocket.

3. Both men were CAREER backups until they made it to Houston. Rosenfels backed up Carr, Schaub backed up Vick but face it they were BOTH career back ups.

Personally I think the starting position is still in the air. One great performance does NOT a starter make especially if that one game is a PRESEASON game.

How you can watch the two QBs and come to that conclusion is beyond understanding...

Now, regarding taking a hit, that's a different story. However, a decision on that doesn't need to be made until after 2009. Until then, both Qbs are signed and no decisions regarding their contracts need be made. So, who cares who can take a hit better: Play the better QB until he gets hurt... then, play Rosenfels.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2008, 12:01 AM
Wait, wasn't Sage injured behind Carr? He was out a few weeks I think. Also, Schaub is not a career backup. Schaub is in his second year as an NFL starter. Has Sage ever been a starter going into a season? Doubt it. Have teams tried desperately to sign Sage as their starting team QB (like for Schaub)? Doubt it. I'm glad the Falcons accepted the Texans' deal. Schaub is clearly better than Sage.

mexican_texan
08-19-2008, 12:29 AM
Wait, wasn't Sage injured behind Carr? He was out a few weeks I think. Also, Schaub is not a career backup. Schaub is in his second year as an NFL starter. Has Sage ever been a starter going into a season? Doubt it. Have teams tried desperately to sign Sage as their starting team QB (like for Schaub)? Doubt it. I'm glad the Falcons accepted the Texans' deal. Schaub is clearly better than Sage.
Sage had a broken hand, but still practiced as much as he could, which won over a few of his teammates.

Since we're all eating crow...no, I still refuse. Babin was not a bust and neither is Travis Johnson.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2008, 12:32 AM
Babin wasn't necessarily a bust, but we did give up too damn much to get him. Especially considering who was taking around him.

mexican_texan
08-19-2008, 12:34 AM
Babin wasn't necessarily a bust, but we did give up too damn much to get him. Especially considering who was taking around him.
We gave up too much, but that was Casserly's way of doing things. As a pass rusher, he was probably the best behind Mario, and maybe better during the preseason. I don't know whether he's in the NFL anymore, though.

mexican_texan
08-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Seems like he's doing well in Seattle

"Last year when he came, his hands were all over the place," defensive-line coach Dwaine Board said. "He's done a real good job of taking care of that problem. He's definitely more explosive this year."

Babin took note of Pro Bowl defensive end Patrick Kerney's workout regimen and started training with Kerney. Babin worked more with free weights and added 15 pounds to his frame. Used primarily as a rush linebacker in Houston, Babin built himself into more of a true defensive end body wise to better fit the Seahawks' plans.

"I played defensive end in college, so that's what I truly love, rushing the passer," Babin said. "The biggest thing for me is playing the run."

Babin weighs 269 pounds, and his offseason work is paying off in training camp. His place on the final roster isn't secure — there are six defensive ends in camp and Kerney, Darryl Tapp and rookie Lawrence Jackson are locks to make the team — but Babin is making his case.

"[He] seems to be much better," Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren said. "He had a pretty good first game, and he understands. He's a particular style of player and he has his strengths. He's not a big, bulky guy, but he's fast and he's strong.

"He's much more comfortable, and it shows this year."

Babin, playing with the second unit, had four solo tackles, a sack and a fumble recovery in the Seahawks' exhibition opener at Minnesota. At home against Chicago on Saturday night, he was credited with one tackle and a quarterback hit.

"He's different," said offensive tackle Sean Locklear, who battles Babin in training camp practice. "It's almost good for us because he's explosive off the ball and he knows how to use his hands. He's almost slippery, I guess, at times."

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2008, 12:42 AM
We gave up too much, but that was Casserly's way of doing things. As a pass rusher, he was probably the best behind Mario, and maybe better during the preseason. I don't know whether he's in the NFL anymore, though.

I guess.

I mean, Boulware did the equivalent of my dog for the Texans really. I kind of liked Babin, and think he would be shining (or doing great now) on the opposite side of Mario, and with Amobi in the middle.

Tex Trenches
08-19-2008, 12:58 AM
I thought we were flush out of crow thanks to Mr. Mario Willams.

KEYE SUX
08-19-2008, 03:25 AM
It is too early to eat crow about the QB situation. If Matt continues to get injured this year then ok. Sage would start in less than HALF of the teams in the league. Do I like Sage? YES! Do I like Matt? YES (when healthy and AJ is in lineup) I believe all this talk comes from us wanting Sage to start over CRAP, i mean Carr. We all wanted Sage then and set the bar so high for anyone to take that away. Is a healthy Matt w/a healthy supporting cast, better than Sage in the same scenerio? I think he is. That does not take ANYTHING away from Sage, though. He is one of the best backups in the league. I, for one, am happy to have two GOOD QBs than one GOOD backup on the sideline while the starting QB is in a fetal position on the field, even though there is no pressure around.

Texanmike02
08-19-2008, 04:48 AM
I'll wait to call judgement until after the Girls game. If Schaub does separate himself, I still believe that Sage can pick up where Schaub leaves off if he gets injured later in the season. One thing not to forget (no seems to forget this in the hot RB competition discussions), when trying to judge the better of 2 players, you need to also factor in their ability to stay on the field. That ability can offset some minor deficiencies amongst players.

Did you just say what I think you said? If Schaub DOES seperate himself, would that not mean that Sage CANNOT pick up where Schaub leaves off if he gets injured later in the season? Forgive my inquisitivness but how is that possible?

Also forgive the fact that we're doing 24hr coverage at work and I'm working a 12 hour shift that is almost exactly opposite of what I normally work on my 8 hour shift. I said almost.

Mike

Texanmike02
08-19-2008, 05:19 AM
I STILL support Rosenfels. Schaub had a great game, but lets me honest here. He's NOT a bad QB by any stretch of the imagination. I just think that Sage is the superior QB because:

1. Sage can take a hit better than Schaub.

2. Sage seems a bit quicker from the pocket.

3. Both men were CAREER backups until they made it to Houston. Rosenfels backed up Carr, Schaub backed up Vick but face it they were BOTH career back ups.

Personally I think the starting position is still in the air. One great performance does NOT a starter make especially if that one game is a PRESEASON game.


I hate to argue (ok that's a lie), but umm....

1. I don't know that sage has been blind sided like Schaub was against SD. I dont' know that there are that many people that get up and walk away from that. That hit by Worthless we can argue about that all day, but that was ferocious.

2. What does that have to do with who's a better QB? Schaub has a better arm and is more precise. Accuracy and precision are two different things. Schaub puts his receivers in a better position to run after the catch. I keep saying this (and those that know me from the old board know how many times I've watched every game they've played in over and over), and its true. Schaub isn't GREAT at it. Sage is BELOW AVERAGE at it. The numbers beared it out when I looked at it.

3. Even with Vick (who I can't stand, but at least he was a very talented player) ATL was looking for ways to get Schaub on the field. Sage has also been a backup to should have been backups like Fiedler. He has been behind the following quality NFL QBs in his career: Ray Lucas, Jay Fiedler, Brian Greise, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Tony Banks, Jeff George and Kent Grahm. That's not to say that automatically disqualifies him from being a starter but your premise that they were both career backups is WAY oversimplifying. Vick COULD actually start for all but a handful of teams in this league. His athletic ability was so enticing that there was no way (ok well one way apparently) that he was not going to be the starter.

4. Kubes didn't think Sage could start. If he did, we don't make the deal for Sage. I have yet to see anything remotely consistant about Sage, with or without AJ on the field. I think he is the consumate Commander Cody. He is great at getting guys hyped up, and can come in and play well for a few games at a time, but long term, his tendancy to throw across his body, when he doesn't have a great arm to begin with, as well as his tendancy to throw off balance, results in passes that are off target, catchable (or interceptable) but off target. I did a comparison of the two and their YPC after the catch average a while back, and even with AJ playing with Sage more than Schaub Schaubs was a decent ammount higher. I'll look it up and see if I can find the spreadsheet and post it. Now do you think that's because we call more curls just because Sage is in the game? If it is, is that because we think he needs a wider target? I don't know the answer to the questions, but Schaub made AD look like AJ lite. Sage not so much.

Mike

thunderkyss
08-19-2008, 07:18 AM
True dat......

I won't be able to watch the game, till I get home tonight. So I still haven't seen Matt do anything that would make him "special".


I never said Sage was better than Matt...... only that they were both good enough to get the job done. I hope Matt does separate himself in 2008.

I finally watched the game yesterday, and I didn't see Matt do anything that would solidify his position as starter, to me.

Now when Sage came out, he disappointed.

I could understand everyone saying Sage took a step backwards, so it makes Matt look that much better, but saying Matt did sooooo good, when he pretty much played the way he has played... I'm not getting it.

Matt did look good in the pocket... I'd have to say that was an improvement that I noticed. Not that he was bad last year, but I think there was improvement there.

He didn't throw anything behind the receiver, which I think he's prone to do. I won't say it's fixed, until I see him not do it on a regular basis.

He had trouble leading his receiver on a couple of throws.

And there were a few throws, where his timing with his receivers were right on. As soon as they turned around, the ball was right there.

He's getting better.. no doubt, but I don't think he's bona fide just yet.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2008, 10:18 AM
4. Kubes didn't think Sage could start. If he did, we don't make the deal for Sage.

I think that's a typo.

Joe Texan
08-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Hey Couch coaches Pay attention


I ate my Crow due to me throwing Matt under the Bus. Matt proved to me that he does not throw high and behind the reciever, yet he throws to the side of the reciever that is the best side of the reciever.
Thus Matt is the Starter and yes he deserves to be where coach Kubes put him.

Sage could take the wheel house of any team in the NFL and lead said team to some victories. The better teams he might get more victories. You nut balls can Analyze all you want but all I am doing is chomping the crow I told you I would do if I came to realize I was wrong about Matt and Sage.

Chomp Chomp Chomp

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2008, 11:58 AM
Use some Tony Chachere's.

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2008, 12:30 PM
Did you just say what I think you said? If Schaub DOES seperate himself, would that not mean that Sage CANNOT pick up where Schaub leaves off if he gets injured later in the season? Forgive my inquisitivness but how is that possible?


Mike

Very simple...............Schaub will be given the sole opportunity to go 3 periods against the girls (Sage won't). So we'll be essentially judging Schaub against himself...........if he burns it up, he will be considered by most as separating himself from Sage. If he flames out, he will not be seen as separating himself from Sage. This is all basically independent of Sage..........and speaks for that one game. My personal opinion is that thus far, there isn't enough out there to have made final valid conclusions............and that time may not come until well into the season.
And, BTW, if Schaub does go down, we better hope that we're lucky enough to have someone like Sage pick up where Schaub left off.

Porky
08-19-2008, 12:49 PM
I finally watched the game yesterday, and I didn't see Matt do anything that would solidify his position as starter, to me.

Now when Sage came out, he disappointed.

I could understand everyone saying Sage took a step backwards, so it makes Matt look that much better, but saying Matt did sooooo good, when he pretty much played the way he has played... I'm not getting it.

Matt did look good in the pocket... I'd have to say that was an improvement that I noticed. Not that he was bad last year, but I think there was improvement there.

He didn't throw anything behind the receiver, which I think he's prone to do. I won't say it's fixed, until I see him not do it on a regular basis.

He had trouble leading his receiver on a couple of throws.

And there were a few throws, where his timing with his receivers were right on. As soon as they turned around, the ball was right there.

He's getting better.. no doubt, but I don't think he's bona fide just yet.


Did you watch the same game I did? Apparently not. You do realize that the Texans are leading the NFL in passer rating thru two games right? You do realize that every drive Schaub has engineered thus far has resulted in points? You do realize that Schaub has the highest completion percentage of any QB playing thus far right?

Nah, he just looks good because Sage has been awful.

Dude, if you keep bringing "insight" like that, I'll have to pass. :spit:

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2008, 01:18 PM
Did you watch the same game I did? Apparently not. You do realize that the Texans are leading the NFL in passer rating thru two games right? You do realize that every drive Schaub has engineered thus far has resulted in points? You do realize that Schaub has the highest completion percentage of any QB playing thus far right?

Nah, he just looks good because Sage has been awful.

Dude, if you keep bringing "insight" like that, I'll have to pass. :spit:

First of all, the overall numbers cited thus far, as most statisticians would tell you, are not great enough to make valid conclusions. Secondly, I would invite anyone to review this list of NFL QB performances in the 2008 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2008&seasonType=PRE&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=false)preseason, and see if the numbers match the claims..............dang, it must be time for the Pats to trade Brady.

HJam72
08-19-2008, 01:22 PM
First of all, the overall numbers cited thus far, as most statisticians would tell you, are not great enough to make valid conclusions. Secondly, I would invite anyone to review this list of NFL QB performances in the 2008 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2008&seasonType=PRE&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=false)preseason, and see if the numbers match the claims..............dang, it must be time for the Pats to trade Brady.

No fair thinking rationally in preseason. We're 2-0 and we're goin' to the Superbowl. :texflag:

Porky
08-19-2008, 01:43 PM
First of all, the overall numbers cited thus far, as most statisticians would tell you, are not great enough to make valid conclusions. Secondly, I would invite anyone to review this list of NFL QB performances in the 2008 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2008&seasonType=PRE&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=false)preseason, and see if the numbers match the claims..............dang, it must be time for the Pats to trade Brady.

I don't think that's a valid argument. We are talking specifically about his performance in the preseason, not how that might translate to the regular season. I honestly don't see how it can be argued that Schaub has been anything less than steller...brilliant even.

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2008, 01:49 PM
http://www.nowandfutures.com/grins/rose_colored_glasses.jpg

Porky
08-19-2008, 02:07 PM
http://www.nowandfutures.com/grins/rose_colored_glasses.jpg

so, he has been no good? What exactly is your argument?

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2008, 02:27 PM
so, he has been no good? What exactly is your argument?

I have no argument with you........just saying my rose colored glasses are broken for the time being.:shades:

thunderkyss
08-19-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't think that's a valid argument. We are talking specifically about his performance in the preseason, not how that might translate to the regular season. I honestly don't see how it can be argued that Schaub has been anything less than steller...brilliant even.

And my point, is you saw all that in the regular season last year. He didn't do, or show us anything remarkably different. Both he & Sage had relatively high QB ratings, and completion percentages.

Heck, David Carr had good numbers the year we kicked him to the curb.

Now, I did note some areas where Matt has shown improvement, but it's not like he's on a whole different level from the way he played last year, or from Sage's play. For all points & purposes, they're the same guy.

Although I understand why some people put Sage a step up, and that's because we've seen him turn nothing(a busted play) into something, several times, where we haven't really seen that from Matt.

thunderkyss
08-19-2008, 03:00 PM
You do realize that the Texans are leading the NFL in passer rating thru two games right?


Dude, if you keep bringing "insight" like that, I'll have to pass. :spit:

Now, I'm scared to look, but would you happen to know who has taken the most snaps through those two games??

Porky
08-19-2008, 03:34 PM
Now, I'm scared to look, but would you happen to know who has taken the most snaps through those two games??

Probably Sage. Not really getting your point here. Both QB's are far superior to Carr.

Yes, Carr had a good completion percentage that last year. Hell, my Grandma would have completed 75% of those quick outs, screen passes, and dump offs to the RB's.

OTOH, Schaub and Sage had one of the longest YPA rate in the NFL last year, and still maintaned a high completion percentage.

Frankly, if you think there is some correalition between the Sage/Schaub regime, and the Carr regime then I might suggest some strong meds.

Texan_Bill
08-19-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm here to eat crow....



I thought Vince Young would be the greatest thing next to cold beer and sliced bread.....




:stirpot:

76Texan
08-19-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm here to eat crow....



I thought Vince Young would be the greatest thing next to cold beer and sliced bread.....




:stirpot:I wonder when Bleeding Arrow will show up to eat his crow, LOL!

Texan_Bill
08-19-2008, 04:00 PM
I wonder when Bleeding Arrow will show up to eat his crow, LOL!

He's too busy in that 'other' thread....

Goldensilence
08-19-2008, 04:15 PM
I hate to argue (ok that's a lie), but umm....

1. I don't know that sage has been blind sided like Schaub was against SD. I dont' know that there are that many people that get up and walk away from that. That hit by Worthless we can argue about that all day, but that was ferocious.

2. What does that have to do with who's a better QB? Schaub has a better arm and is more precise. Accuracy and precision are two different things. Schaub puts his receivers in a better position to run after the catch. I keep saying this (and those that know me from the old board know how many times I've watched every game they've played in over and over), and its true. Schaub isn't GREAT at it. Sage is BELOW AVERAGE at it. The numbers beared it out when I looked at it.

3. Even with Vick (who I can't stand, but at least he was a very talented player) ATL was looking for ways to get Schaub on the field. Sage has also been a backup to should have been backups like Fiedler. He has been behind the following quality NFL QBs in his career: Ray Lucas, Jay Fiedler, Brian Greise, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Tony Banks, Jeff George and Kent Grahm. That's not to say that automatically disqualifies him from being a starter but your premise that they were both career backups is WAY oversimplifying. Vick COULD actually start for all but a handful of teams in this league. His athletic ability was so enticing that there was no way (ok well one way apparently) that he was not going to be the starter.

4. Kubes didn't think Sage could start. If he did, we don't make the deal for Sage. I have yet to see anything remotely consistant about Sage, with or without AJ on the field. I think he is the consumate Commander Cody. He is great at getting guys hyped up, and can come in and play well for a few games at a time, but long term, his tendancy to throw across his body, when he doesn't have a great arm to begin with, as well as his tendancy to throw off balance, results in passes that are off target, catchable (or interceptable) but off target. I did a comparison of the two and their YPC after the catch average a while back, and even with AJ playing with Sage more than Schaub Schaubs was a decent ammount higher. I'll look it up and see if I can find the spreadsheet and post it. Now do you think that's because we call more curls just because Sage is in the game? If it is, is that because we think he needs a wider target? I don't know the answer to the questions, but Schaub made AD look like AJ lite. Sage not so much.

Mike

Great post Mike.


Much As I really respect some of the guys in the club....there is little in talking sense to the Sage for President club.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2008, 04:33 PM
He's too busy in that 'other' thread....

So that was him on that bench?

Mr PC
08-19-2008, 04:43 PM
i guess i have to weigh in now.


First i want to say Schaub will be a good quarterback. I think he has more poise than Sage (less prone to mistakes, and makes better decisions). I even think he deserves to start. But as for the arguments against Sage:

"He is a career backup". This is a crappy argument which has been dispelled numerous times. Sage was better than Carr as I think we can all agree, Sage should have started for this team in 2006. Also the Vikings wanted Sage as their starter, but Kubiak believed Sage was too valuable to give up for a mere 3rd round pick (what does that tell you?). Sage could start for many teams in this league. In fact, he when he did get playing time for the Texans we did very well. The best win of the season last year came against the Denver Broncos, a game that Sage started (and finished). So it is clear, Sage can be an effective starter.

Sage plays kind of wild, he will force balls into coverage, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesnt. He is raw and not as consistent as Matt. Sage's is best asset in my opinion is how he plays in the 4th quarter. He shows tremendous heart and tenacity and really steps it up when the game is on the line. And it is pretty much indisputable that he has the ability to lead the offense. I wont bother posting Sage's stats next to Commander Cody's again, but the difference between the two is clear.

tsip
08-19-2008, 05:06 PM
I have seen many posts similar to this, all because one preseason performance. Schaub did look good vs the Saints playing the "lets throw at Jason David" game. But now everybody is jumping on his nuts because of one preseason game? If Sage happened to look better than Matt, the first thing I would expect to hear is "its just a preseason game." Now people are talking about Matt as a top 5 QB and comparing him to Tom Brady because he had a good preseason game.

Well, at least Schaub did have a 'top' 5 QB type of game- no sacks/no interceptions/2 tds/high completion percentage/high QB rating/high ypc and ypa. I still remember the days when the best thing we said about our starting qb's results were, 'it's only pre-season.'

thunderkyss
08-19-2008, 07:31 PM
You said,
You do realize that the Texans are leading the NFL in passer rating thru two games right?

So I said,
Now, I'm scared to look, but would you happen to know who has taken the most snaps through those two games??

then you said,
Probably Sage. Not really getting your point here. Both QB's are far superior to Carr.

If Sage took most of the snaps, I think that's a point for Sage.

Yes, Carr had a good completion percentage that last year. Hell, my Grandma would have completed 75% of those quick outs, screen passes, and dump offs to the RB's.

another point I'm trying to make...... the system & the coach has a lot to do with those numbers....... maybe we could get some Jake Plummer stats to better illustrate.


OTOH, Schaub and Sage had one of the longest YPA rate in the NFL last year, and still maintaned a high completion percentage.

Frankly, if you think there is some correalition between the Sage/Schaub regime, and the Carr regime then I might suggest some strong meds.

Again, my point was that the numbers you first mentioned went up when Kubiak had Carr......

so far, neither Sage or Schaub has shown to be much more than a "system QB" & right now, I don't think there's that much difference between the two.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2008, 08:36 PM
If Sage took most of the snaps, I think that's a point for Sage.


Actually, through 2 games, I don't consider that a very good gauge.

In the first game, the plan was to play Matt and most of the first string for a quarter, then Sage and the second string for 2 quarters, and then 3rd string for a quarter.

In the second game, the plan was to play Matt for a quarter and a half, then Sage for a quarter and a half, and finally whatever was left was going to go to Brink. So, that's 2 quarters of work for Matt, 3.5 quarters for Sage, and then the leftovers for Shane and Alex.

If Sage had most of the snaps with the first team, then I'd agree but he's not taking the first team snaps.

I think it's standard for the 2nd string guy to get more snaps in preseason.

Texanmike02
08-19-2008, 08:36 PM
i guess i have to weigh in now.


First i want to say Schaub will be a good quarterback. I think he has more poise than Sage (less prone to mistakes, and makes better decisions). I even think he deserves to start. But as for the arguments against Sage:

"He is a career backup". This is a crappy argument which has been dispelled numerous times. Sage was better than Carr as I think we can all agree, Sage should have started for this team in 2006. Also the Vikings wanted Sage as their starter, but Kubiak believed Sage was too valuable to give up for a mere 3rd round pick (what does that tell you?). Sage could start for many teams in this league. In fact, he when he did get playing time for the Texans we did very well. The best win of the season last year came against the Denver Broncos, a game that Sage started (and finished). So it is clear, Sage can be an effective starter.

Sage plays kind of wild, he will force balls into coverage, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesnt. He is raw and not as consistent as Matt. Sage's is best asset in my opinion is how he plays in the 4th quarter. He shows tremendous heart and tenacity and really steps it up when the game is on the line. And it is pretty much indisputable that he has the ability to lead the offense. I wont bother posting Sage's stats next to Commander Cody's again, but the difference between the two is clear.


Well apparently we disagree.

Also the Vikings wanted Sage as their starter, but Kubiak believed Sage was too valuable to give up for a mere 3rd round pick (what does that tell you?).

There's no evidence that they wanted thim to be their starter. They wanted him to push Jackson. If they wanted him to be their starter, if they felt he was their guy then they are idiots if they didn't offer a second round pick. If you see a guy on another roster that you feel is ready to come in and start at a skill position that you have a need you make that move; Every day and twice on Sunday.

To speak to the second part of that point; That doesn't mean he saw him as a starter. Schaubs durability is at least somewhat in question. I don't know if you chalk it up to two hellacious hits, the need to prepare better in the offseason, having a glass jaw, or a little of all of them but you certainly need to have a viable backup. Considering Sage is the only other person on our roster who has thrown an NFL pass (to my knowledge) you don't get rid of him cheaply. Personally, I would have done the deal anyways. But if your argument is that one team wanted him bad enough to give a 3rd round pick, considering the shape of many of the leagues QB position, that doesn't really mean much. There are at least 5-7 teams who are in a terrible position at the QB spot. Whey wasn't there a great auction held for Sage's services?

I think the reason there was no auction, is that most NFL GMs/Coaches don't see him as a long term starter. He might be able to step in and fill the shoes for a season but that's about it.


At best, he's a journeyman starter (see Jon Kitna) at worst hes a good backup. I think those are the best and worst you do with him. That DOES make him valuable. But honestly, I want better than Jon Kitna out of my QB position. Now somebody will post his stats. And they were good. Very good at times. But it was always on a team that went nowhere. He didn't really stay anywhere very long and his career has been marred by long stretches of bad play followed by long stretches of good play, you just never know what you're going to get. Could he Dilfer his way to a SB? Maybe.

Its kind of a catch 22 in his case as I see it. He is a great backup (where I think his actual value lies) because he is such a competitor. He fires guys up. He doesn't wilt. He takes chances. You need that from a guy when your guy goes down. At the same time, he's not the most physically gifted guy on the team. If he took fewer chances, played within himself a little more, he might be exactly that, Dilfer.


Sage plays kind of wild, he will force balls into coverage, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesnt. He is raw and not as consistent as Matt. Sage's is best asset in my opinion is how he plays in the 4th quarter. He shows tremendous heart and tenacity and really steps it up when the game is on the line. And it is pretty much indisputable that he has the ability to lead the offense.

See above. You're right about the last sentence. The problem is you never know which way the offense is going to be led when he's in. The fact that he's still raw, 6 years in, might be an issue. I personally don't want a guy who forces the ball into coverage very often. Unless my guy is Manning or Farveesque that is. Sage has a Manning mentality with a Wurfel arm. Care to give a reference for the 4th qtr bit? I can think of good and bad 4ths.

I'd have done Sage for a 3rd in a heartbeat to be honest. Another player like slaton at a different position? A guy who might push to start by the end of the year? But you and I feel differently about Sage. I don't want him as my starter. Not long term. If I had a young QB I was grooming to start, then I'd be ok with it but I don't want him as my plan for the next 5 years because I think that would be 5 years of just above mediocre QB play.

Wow that was longer than I thought. Maybe I need offseason football counseling.

Mike

76Texan
08-20-2008, 12:23 AM
Nicely done, Mike! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Even though I think I would value Sage a bit higher than that.
He's getting a bit closer to Garcia, especially in the overachiever mode.

Sage's roll-out move to the left should rank among the best quarter in the league, at the least.

I think he'll do better with a standard pro O-line, in which he can afford another 1/4 of a sec to make the read.

ReliantTexan
08-20-2008, 12:50 AM
Again, my point was that the numbers you first mentioned went up when Kubiak had Carr......

Only the completion percentage, the rest wasn't even close.

Dread-Head
08-20-2008, 01:23 AM
How you can watch the two QBs and come to that conclusion is beyond understanding...

Now, regarding taking a hit, that's a different story. However, a decision on that doesn't need to be made until after 2009. Until then, both Qbs are signed and no decisions regarding their contracts need be made. So, who cares who can take a hit better: Play the better QB until he gets hurt... then, play Rosenfels.


Schaub seems to get hurt quite a bit son. Riddle me this Batman:

1. How many games did Schaub miss last season?

2. Of the games Schaub started (and completed) last season, how many did the Texans win?

3. How many games did Rosenfels start last season?

4. Of the games Rosenfels started how many resulted in a Texans victory?


Do you mean to imply that in the games in which Rosenfels played he DIDN'T take any hits? I SERIOUSLY beg to differ.

Dread-Head
08-20-2008, 01:41 AM
I'm not dining on Crow just yet. I still don't have any faith in Schaub AND I think the man is injury prone. You muff-huggas can make this an "attack Dread-head" forum all you like (So this is what it's like to be Porky?) But I stand by my earlier statements.
And you're all overlooking something...Looking good in preseason isn't worth a steaming pile of Toro chips when the regular season starts. Scoring a Touch Down over a guy who'll be a baggage handler next week means about as much as being the prettiest girl in BearCreek, Montana (population 83) Who cares? It doesn't mean shhhhhht.


I'm Dread-Head...and I approve this message.

Paid for by the Committee to Elect Dread-Head and Texan Bill.

Texanmike02
08-20-2008, 02:29 AM
Schaub seems to get hurt quite a bit son. Riddle me this Batman:

1. How many games did Schaub miss last season?

2. Of the games Schaub started (and completed) last season, how many did the Texans win?

3. How many games did Rosenfels start last season?

4. Of the games Rosenfels started how many resulted in a Texans victory?


Do you mean to imply that in the games in which Rosenfels played he DIDN'T take any hits? I SERIOUSLY beg to differ.


OK. First of all, you broke this complex question down into four parts for one reason. Either you lack confidence in the ability of the members in this forum to follow subject object agreement, or your ability to maintain it while constructing a sentence. I'm not sure which. Care to enlighten?


Ok that was a bad joke made by a tired man a 2:30 when he should be home in bed.


Seriously though.

If you don't believe Schaub's the answer, that's fine. I haven't been basing this on one game. I've based it on the time I've watched each play (which is considerable since I record and rewatch every game several times). I'm basing it on what I see the receivers first move is after catching the ball (are they gathering balance or making a move). I'm basing it on the exhaustive statistical analysis I've done, trying to eliminate useless data and extract something meaningful.


If you want, go look at the difference in the quality of games they've won. I'm not going to walk through it or dig up spreadsheets again. There is a difference. When the stros were going through their little winning streak before the allstar break, everyone was talking about "oooh, ahhh, they're better than we thought". Yeah, then we started playing good teams. Anyone seen what people've done to them? Maybe the same thing applies here.

As for the hits they took. I was at a sports bar when Schaub took the hit vs SD. That hit elicited a collective "ooooooooooo" from everyone in the bar. Twice. VS Tenn, that was a nasty, dirty play. No Sage hasn't been subjected to either type of play. Not that I recall. he's been hit, everybody gets hit. Not every QB in the league gets hit like Schaub got hit. That hit in SD was one of the worst headshots I can remember.

Oh, and theres never anything personal. I'm not coming out and attacking you or whatever (from your last post in this thread). I'm just trying to have intelligent discussion (sometimes) with fellow Texans fans. I've been that way from the start. If I thought Sage was the answer, I'd say so. I just don't.

Mike

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2008, 07:12 AM
Some Texans fans can come across inequivocally confident in their thought process [See LINK]: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsGqzr3uG-U)shots:

Polo
08-20-2008, 08:32 AM
We can also say that he tried to turn and run because he didn't think that the ball would be tipped. That is, if the ball wasn't tipped, it probably would have been a big play.

Guys are athletic in the NFL...Sometimes they get their hands on passes...

I'm pretty sure the recievers coach didn't cut him any slack for dropping that pass because "it was tipped"...

thunderkyss
08-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Well apparently we disagree.

In Response to the career back-up.... how do you explain Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie, and Trent Dilfer? True Journeymen, who have led teams to success.

If you are convinced Matt is all that and a bag of chips, then that's that. Others aren't quite convinced, and would have preferred that we drafted someone to groom, while Sage started. NO one believes Sage is the long term answer, we believe he is a good stop gap, while we search for the long term answer.

Personally, I would have rather we drafted a guy to groom, right now, we're wasting our time, & Bob's money to prove that Schaub is as good as Sage, to date, that's all that we've seen.


But if your argument is that one team wanted him bad enough to give a 3rd round pick, considering the shape of many of the leagues QB position, that doesn't really mean much. There are at least 5-7 teams who are in a terrible position at the QB spot. Whey wasn't there a great auction held for Sage's services?

I believe it's mostly because of Age. Why should a team spend a second rounder on a guy who is just going to get them by, especially if he's going into his 8th season??

Same reason Kurt Warner is still in Arizona, and Dante Culpepper can't find a job. There aren't any teams out there, in need of a QB, that is on the bubble. Where the QB is that final piece. All the teams in QB trouble, need work on both sides of the ball.


I think the reason there was no auction, is that most NFL GMs/Coaches don't see him as a long term starter. He might be able to step in and fill the shoes for a season but that's about it.


And while we are on the subject, when we offered two 2nd round picks to Atlanta, how many teams were we fighting off?? From what I recall, we were the only team that made any offer whatsoever.

Am I wrong??

I don't want him as my starter. Not long term. If I had a young QB I was grooming to start, then I'd be ok with it but I don't want him as my plan for the next 5 years because I think that would be 5 years of just above mediocre QB play.

Mike

I don't know about mediocre... I think Sage has just as much ability to excel in this system as Schaub..... I honestly don't see Schaub's ceiling being any higher than Sage's right now.



Nicely done, Mike! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Even though I think I would value Sage a bit higher than that.
He's getting a bit closer to Garcia, especially in the overachiever mode.

Sage's roll-out move to the left should rank among the best quarter in the league, at the least.

I think he'll do better with a standard pro O-line, in which he can afford another 1/4 of a sec to make the read.

The Denver WCO is ideal for a mobile QB.... Sage is more mobile than Schaub, and he's better on the run..... if he's going to do better anywhere, it's going to be here.


If you don't believe Schaub's the answer, that's fine. I haven't been basing this on one game. I've based it on the time I've watched each play (which is considerable since I record and rewatch every game several times). I'm basing it on what I see the receivers first move is after catching the ball (are they gathering balance or making a move). I'm basing it on the exhaustive statistical analysis I've done, trying to eliminate useless data and extract something meaningful.

Now, I see the problem. You and I are looking at two different guys. The Matt Schaub I'm talking about, is the guy who starts for the Houston Texans. The guy you're talking about is on some other team.

Matt Schaub's game doesn't resemble your description at all. Last year, there was not one catch, not one throw that matches your description, and in the last two preseason games, he's thrown nothing but hitches & crossing patterns.

Not once hitting anyone in stride. I'll go back and watch the game again, I could be wrong. But the things you mention, are the things I'm looking for, and I'm not seeing.

What did you think of that first pass to Davis, where he was wide open, running an out route. Davis had to stretch to dig it out of the dirt, and his momentum took him out of bounds. If the Matt Schaub you are describing had put that ball like you said he can, Andre could have turned that upfield for at least another 10 yards.


As for the hits they took. I was at a sports bar when Schaub took the hit vs SD. That hit elicited a collective "ooooooooooo" from everyone in the bar. Twice. VS Tenn, that was a nasty, dirty play. No Sage hasn't been subjected to either type of play. Not that I recall. he's been hit, everybody gets hit. Not every QB in the league gets hit like Schaub got hit. That hit in SD was one of the worst headshots I can remember.

I'll agree with you on two of those hits. The one against San Diego, regardless how my QB felt, If I were Kubiak, and I just spent two 2nd round picks on him, I wouldn't have let him back in that game.

The first one against Tennessee...... I'm good with that one. but the second one....

If I thought Sage was the answer, I'd say so. I just don't.

Mike

That's understandable, and in a message board thread, you'll actually have two/three or more arguments going at the same time.

I don't believe Sage is the answer either, but I don't think Schaub has proven to be worth what we gave up. Think about that.

Let's just say I'm right, for the sake of this argument, and Sage performs just as well as Matt will in the next season or so...... with those two second rounders, we could have had another DE to replace Weaver/Colvin.... we could have had Jamaal Charles, instead of Slaton, or whoever you liked in the second.....

We'd have added another playmaker on Defense, another playmaker on offense.... and possibly have our QB of the future in the wings.

Now I'm not writing Matt Schaub off. I don't want Sage to start, if Matt is healthy. I want Matt to have every opportunity to separate himself from Sage. But as much as I want that, I'm not seeing it.

infantrycak
08-20-2008, 10:20 AM
The Denver WCO is ideal for a mobile QB.... Sage is more mobile than Schaub

More mobile, sure, but so was David Carr. Schaub is plenty mobile and has a better pocket presence. See clip below.

Last year, there was not one catch, not one throw that matches your description, and in the last two preseason games, he's thrown nothing but hitches & crossing patterns.

Not once hitting anyone in stride. I'll go back and watch the game again, I could be wrong. But the things you mention, are the things I'm looking for, and I'm not seeing.

Not one huh? LOL Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h3aanskqcY)

Cracks me up comparing Schaub to Sage on deep balls and then nitpicking placement. Sage has been much less likely to complete the pass at all and has been assisted greatly by WR adjustments. Sage completion % 21+ yards--33%. Schaub completion % 21+ yards--44% (which is actually slightly better than Brady and Manning although both had many more attempts).

Texan_Bill
08-20-2008, 10:25 AM
.... Sage is more mobile than Schaub, and he's better on the run.....


That's akin to saying a Three-toed Sloth is faster than Garden Snail..

tsip
08-20-2008, 11:19 AM
Our first QB was a disaster, from day one, so I'm glad we didn't go the 'groom' route all over again. Schaub has already shown he can work the pocket/make good decisions/has good ball placement/will throw the ball down field, etc. ...so has Sage. And, both are outstanding team players who do not blame everyone around them for their failures.

I feel good about our QB position, and believe we can win with either one on the field. Between them, remember, we had 24 tds last year-- a 50% increase over DC's best year...and, the sacks, where did they go??!!

Texanmike02
08-20-2008, 11:33 AM
And while we are on the subject, when we offered two 2nd round picks to Atlanta, how many teams were we fighting off?? From what I recall, we were the only team that made any offer whatsoever.

Am I wrong??


I would say yes. The reason we offered two seconds, is he had been offered the highest tender possible. We were actually bidding against everyone the following year. When he would hit the free agent market, and worse than giving up two second rounders, it would have cost us cap space for the next 5 years to sign him.


In Response to the career back-up.... how do you explain Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie, and Trent Dilfer? True Journeymen, who have led teams to success.

No offense, this is the worst most ignorant argument I've ever seen you put forth. By that logic, we should go out and just sign everyone's backup. I usually like reading what you write, and respect your ability to debate, but you're falling short. This is almost a case of the exception that proves the rule. For every Kurt Warner, there are 100 Scott Mitchells. (DET backup went to Miami, was terrible). And you didn't really even name the best example. Steve Young was your knight in shining armor.


Now, I see the problem. You and I are looking at two different guys. The Matt Schaub I'm talking about, is the guy who starts for the Houston Texans. The guy you're talking about is on some other team.

Matt Schaub's game doesn't resemble your description at all. Last year, there was not one catch, not one throw that matches your description, and in the last two preseason games, he's thrown nothing but hitches & crossing patterns.

Not once hitting anyone in stride. I'll go back and watch the game again, I could be wrong. But the things you mention, are the things I'm looking for, and I'm not seeing.

What did you think of that first pass to Davis, where he was wide open, running an out route. Davis had to stretch to dig it out of the dirt, and his momentum took him out of bounds. If the Matt Schaub you are describing had put that ball like you said he can, Andre could have turned that upfield for at least another 10 yards.

As the season wore on, he lost effectiveness.. maybe due to injuries. But from what I saw of him in atlanta, and what I saw early in the season, you must not have started watching the same team you are right.

Mike

thunderkyss
08-20-2008, 12:05 PM
More mobile, sure, but so was David Carr. Schaub is plenty mobile and has a better pocket presence. See clip below.

But David Sucked......



Not one huh? LOL Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h3aanskqcY)

OUch........ maybe not one was a little strong.


Damn he looked good in that clip. Which does more for Matt Schaub, than his play in the preseason, which is what this thread(and argument) is based on.

He hasn't done anything in the last two preseason games, that trumps that highlight clip.

Cracks me up comparing Schaub to Sage on deep balls and then nitpicking placement. Sage has been much less likely to complete the pass at all and has been assisted greatly by WR adjustments. Sage completion % 21+ yards--33%. Schaub completion % 21+ yards--44% (which is actually slightly better than Brady and Manning although both had many more attempts).

I never said Sage had better placement.... I just said Schaub needs work..... your stats may very well prove me wrong. But even in your highlight clip, I only saw one, where the reciever didn't have to slow down, turn around, or make a heck of a jump.

That one touchdown, where AJ had to turn around, and pick the ball out of the air, I'll agree that was exactly where that ball needed to be, and there are some others where that is the case.

And I'll point out, I'm not nitpicking his placement, another poster said he was better at it, than I thought he was. I don't think you can count his ball placement as a strength just yet. That's all I'm saying.





I would say yes. The reason we offered two seconds, is he had been offered the highest tender possible.

He wasn't offered anything, by any body..... the Falcons placed the tender on him.


No offense, this is the worst most ignorant argument I've ever seen you put forth.

It's hard not to take offense to language like that.


By that logic, we should go out and just sign everyone's backup.

I'm not following that logic. You're saying Sage is a career backup, therefore he isn't capable of accomplishing anything worth while..... I disagreed, and gave you examples of guys who fell into the same career backup category, yet they found lots of success in the NFL.

My point, just because he was a backup for three other teams doesn't mean he isn't good enough to be a starter.

is not the same as

Every backup in the NFL is worthy of being a starter.

I usually like reading what you write, and respect your ability to debate, but you're falling short. This is almost a case of the exception that proves the rule. For every Kurt Warner, there are 100 Scott Mitchells. (DET backup went to Miami, was terrible). And you didn't really even name the best example. Steve Young was your knight in shining armor.

Well, my point is that there are exceptions to the rule. I'm not even saying that Sage is that exception, just saying that there are exceptions to the rule.

& I guess I'm a little off on my Steve Young history, but was he ever considered a career backup?? Playing in NFL Europe, the Canadian League, or Arena Footbal??

infantrycak
08-20-2008, 12:18 PM
He wasn't offered anything, by any body..... the Falcons placed the tender on him.

The year before, there were reports that two teams made full 1st and 3rd offers for Schaub even before he became an RFA. There was also another team in the mix when the Texans acquired Schaub but I do not recall any reports of what their offer was.

thunderkyss
08-20-2008, 12:31 PM
The year before, there were reports that two teams made full 1st and 3rd offers for Schaub even before he became an RFA. There was also another team in the mix when the Texans acquired Schaub but I do not recall any reports of what their offer was.

I remember that as well, but once Schaub was available, he sat for like two weeks(right??) before anyone made any offer....

And then the year before, the talking heads were talking like he was the best thing since sliced bread, any team should go after him, He was actually a better prospect than Vince Young, Matt Lienart, & Jay Cutler..... yada, yada, yada.

Then as soon as we go get him, "WTF were they thinking??"

But that's a different story.

dalemurphy
08-20-2008, 12:38 PM
I remember that as well, but once Schaub was available, he sat for like two weeks(right??) before anyone made any offer....

And then the year before, the talking heads were talking like he was the best thing since sliced bread, any team should go after him, He was actually a better prospect than Vince Young, Matt Lienart, & Jay Cutler..... yada, yada, yada.

Then as soon as we go get him, "WTF were they thinking??"

But that's a different story.

Value is subjective. I think Kubiak and Smith are thrilled with the price. I know I am... As far as I'm concerned, those are the three people that matter most.

Brando
08-20-2008, 12:38 PM
The year before, there were reports that two teams made full 1st and 3rd offers for Schaub even before he became an RFA. There was also another team in the mix when the Texans acquired Schaub but I do not recall any reports of what their offer was.

I think it was the Raiders before they were set on drafting Russell but I could be mistaken. I don't remember if any of the offers were reported.

ObsiWan
08-20-2008, 12:44 PM
Some Texans fans can come across inequivocally confident in their thought process [See LINK]: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsGqzr3uG-U)shots:

Wow....
I hope I never meet that kid face-to-face. I'm not sure I'd ever stop laughing.

Brando
08-20-2008, 12:54 PM
Some Texans fans can come across inequivocally confident in their thought process [See LINK]: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsGqzr3uG-U)shots:

I think we found johnsonfan.


The Houston Texans! I just don't think he's a starter. Sage Rosenfels is not going to get the job done. Matt Scahub is not the answer.dang i am freaking out right now, so i am sitting playing madden 08 and all of a sudden a cockroach comes out form under my bed and goes behind my cabinet! omg lol i dont knowwhat to do i cant see it its to dark now and ok what i need to know is if there is one does it mean there are more cause i have never seen any? and how do i get rid of them or it? thanks

tsip
08-20-2008, 01:03 PM
It's me-I know, I'm missing something. Matt completed 88.9% of his passes against NO-- missing 2 and 1 was dropped. His YPA was 10, his YPC even more....but some are complaining about his ball placement.

Did I mention he threw 2 tds and 0 interceptions and was not sacked and had good YAC, and- ----- had a qb rating over 150!!!!!!!!!!!

.....but, he had 'BAD' ball placement????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...geeeeezzzzzz zzzzzzz

HOU-TEX
08-20-2008, 01:21 PM
Who would've guessed this thread would turn into another Schaub vs Sage debate?? :rolleyes:

:texflag:

Hooston Texan
08-20-2008, 01:36 PM
It's me-I know, I'm missing something. Matt completed 88.9% of his passes against NO-- missing 2 and 1 was dropped. His YPA was 10, his YPC even more....but some are complaining about his ball placement.

Did I mention he threw 2 tds and 0 interceptions and was not sacked and had good YAC, and- ----- had a qb rating over 150!!!!!!!!!!!

.....but, he had 'BAD' ball placement????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...geeeeezzzzzz zzzzzzz

One was dropped. The other incompletion was intentional: we had called a screen, but the linebacker was all over the RB. With three linemen bearing down on him, Matt threw it at the covered RB's feet to avoid the grounding call. There was no other way to salvage that play.

On one of the completions, Matt did underthrow Davis a little (I believe he was getting heat up the middle), but Andre made a nice adjustment for the reception. Everything else was right on target.

Mr PC
08-20-2008, 02:04 PM
Schaub was very impressive against the Saints we should all agree. What I dont understand is the need to belittle Sage in order to cement Matt's place as the starter. Sage has proven so many times that he can help this team win when given the chance. Even if Matt is the better option to start, bottom line is that the Texans have two competent quarterbacks both capable of starting and winning games.

ReliantTexan
08-20-2008, 02:59 PM
Last year, there was not one catch, not one throw that matches your description, and in the last two preseason games, he's thrown nothing but hitches & crossing patterns.

Not once hitting anyone in stride. I'll go back and watch the game again, I could be wrong. But the things you mention, are the things I'm looking for, and I'm not seeing.



That first sentence tells me you didn't watch very many games last year. And that out route to Davis, uh yeah the pocket was collapsing pretty fast on that one and he almost had to throw it off his back foot. And what about the TD pass to Walter, or the crossing patter to Walter (that was the very definition of hitting someone in stride).

Hooston Texan
08-20-2008, 03:02 PM
Schaub was very impressive against the Saints we should all agree. What I dont understand is the need to belittle Sage in order to cement Matt's place as the starter. Sage has proven so many times that he can help this team win when given the chance. Even if Matt is the better option to start, bottom line is that the Texans have two competent quarterbacks both capable of starting and winning games.

It's the nature of a QB controversy (or any argument). The "start Sage" crowd is certainly not reticent about dissecting any shortcoming that Schaub may show. If Matt's issues are fair game, then so are Sage's. Of course, every aspect of every Texan's play is fair game on a Texan message board.

As the driver of the Schaub bandwagon, my position on Sage is this: he is one of the better backup QBs in the league--he's an ideal fit for our #2. But he is not as good as our starter. Nonetheless, until our starter proves he can get through the season, we will need a quality backup like Sage who is ready to go.

Nobody here dislikes Sage. Even those who suggest trading him see it more in terms of what we'd gain in draft picks.

ReliantTexan
08-20-2008, 03:07 PM
He hasn't done anything in the last two preseason games, that trumps that highlight clip.



Meh throwing for 187 and 2TDs in only a quarter and a half. He must be doing something right. lol

Texanmike02
08-20-2008, 06:26 PM
Wow....
I hope I never meet that kid face-to-face. I'm not sure I'd ever stop laughing.

ever see starwars kid

ObsiWan
08-20-2008, 06:48 PM
ever see starwars kid

I think so.....

Texanmike02
08-20-2008, 07:31 PM
dunno what happened. But I'll have to fix and reply later thunder

Dread-Head
08-20-2008, 09:19 PM
Texan Mike I didn't take your comment as an attack...several other people were in my face at the same time you were. Besides I never take stuff in here personally.

Vinny
08-20-2008, 10:30 PM
It's me-I know, I'm missing something. Matt completed 88.9% of his passes against NO-- missing 2 and 1 was dropped. His YPA was 10, his YPC even more....but some are complaining about his ball placement.

Did I mention he threw 2 tds and 0 interceptions and was not sacked and had good YAC, and- ----- had a qb rating over 150!!!!!!!!!!!

.....but, he had 'BAD' ball placement????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...geeeeezzzzzz zzzzzzz
I've seen this ball placement argument and its a nonsense argument. The Texans passing offense is as good as anyone's right now. If Schaub was not accurate the team wouldn't be so efficient passing.

Heading into Friday's game against Dallas, the Texans rank first in the NFL in third down efficiency at 59.3 percent, first in completion percentage at 78.0 and first in quarterback rating at 126.7. http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=4537

CloakNNNdagger
08-23-2008, 09:20 AM
Schaub is getting accolades for his performance against the Girls.......but I would have to say that it certainly wasn't consistent. There were times that he seemed rattled. As soon as the rush came in quickly and there was a defender within 3 feet, it appeared that he found the need to get rid of the ball. On the other hand, I would challenge anyone to review the game and not see that Sage, not atypically was surrounded with defenders (sometimes he seemed to disappear within the myriad of defenders), remained calm, took one step out the pocket and found his target. Also, I don't buy the fact that Sage is not a mobile QB. He is the wiley QB that will use his mobility, but only when necessary and fully advantageous.

Another thing that bothered me last night was that on many 3rd downs, whether short or long to go, Schaub was in the "shotgun." Sage remained under center throughout most of the 3rd down plays. This may very well linked to the "rattled" factor I mentioned above. But for whatever the reason, once you use the "shotgun" routinely in 3rd down situations, you are basically removing the run option to the defense. This will allow for focused concentration of the defenses' attack on the limited offensive options ........and this will eventually work against you.

You can always say that Sage was working against the 2nd team defense which was a weaker defense, but you would also have to say that he wasn't playing with the 1st team offense. This is not just a little unimportant factor........theoretically better more reliable receivers and RBs (eg., Slaton), and better protection from a stronger defense.

The argument of "separation" has not been settled in my mind.