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HoustonFrog
04-21-2006, 10:42 PM
I agree. I enjoy your posts. well reasoned- i'de give you rep but i'm out for the day.


I don't get people's obssession with DD. GOOD back with GOOD numbers but not a game breaker and he had a few runs last year where he was caught from behind. I tell you what that does....instead of 6 and more leeway you bog down or take your chances and maybe punt, attempt a FG, etc. It is HUGE. People don't understand that. DD is a good guy and back but I have YET to see one NFL guy say that he is a top back in the NFL...add to that that he misses games with injuries. Even with zone blocking he isn't breaking runs. The response above is correct. You don't need a guy for 20 carries but if Bush can get 15 to 20 TOUCHES and get the shot it changes games. DD is not a franchise back. In fact there is half of me that sees the way Denver has drafted and isn't really sure if RB should not be a 2nd or 3rd rounder and D first(don't bash, just a randon, fleeting though :) )

Runner
04-21-2006, 10:59 PM
I don't get people's obssession with DD.

The obsession is: we like the players we know. This is a good thing, in the view that sport is an opportunity to build a community. However, success with others leave previous players as a fond (hopefully) memory.

It isn't a zero sum game. Sports are a positive.

HoustonFrog
04-21-2006, 11:06 PM
The obsession is: we like the players we know. This is a good thing, in the view that sport is an opportunity to build a community. However, success with others leave previous players as a fond (hopefully) memory.

It isn't a zero sum game. Sports are a positive.


UMM, I agree completely and have plenty on positives to say about DD. My post was just a reference to people thinking you can "get by" with DD. Almost every team in the history of the NFL to win a SB has had a franchise/HOF QB or RB. Some had both. Right now we are paying franchise money for a QB we hope turns the corner and money to a RB who is thought of as a "good" RB. I think we can use both RBs if we get Bush and co-exist. As I said in another post there is the smallest part of me that sees how Denver drafted RBs late and can go a different direction.

run-david-run
04-21-2006, 11:16 PM
Comparisons to WR's are great, but until Reggie averages 14-15 yards a touch, quite pointless. Personally, I wouldnt mind a 15 carry, 3-5 catch average for Reggie, however, if its 10 carries, 3-5 catches, you have to ask yourself if its worth it. After all, D'Brick or Mario would impact pretty much every singe play, Reggie will directly impact 15 per game....

thunderkyss
04-21-2006, 11:42 PM
Your crazy, 20 teams pass on a future Hall of Fame Reciever. Like him or not Moss is the most explosive downfield threat every in this league when healthy, and you actually think 20 teams would pass on him again. Put your personal feelings aside he is a all time great.
You do know that guys like T.O. can go to any team he chooses(except the 49ers & Eagles), and get the money he asks for..... a team coming off back to back NFC championship games...... one player shy of a superbowl....... He goes to America's team.......... no trouble, even gets them to drop their #1 reciever to get him.

Then Keyshawn........ goes to a playoff team..... he plays with the most explosive downfield threat in the league today.

Randy........... Randy is in Oakland... wheeeeeeeeee

The problem for many is that they are trying to force Bush into a traditional RB role, because for lack of a better term he is called that.
......... He has never been a traditional RB and evaluating him as such will lead to negative conclusion in terms of his value. TheTexans are projecting him to do what he has always done, not in a new role (a feture RB).

Your concern is warranted...............

You've got me pegged....... that is exactly my problem......

It bothers me that of all the highlight clips I've seen of him, at least 80% of the plays are pass plays...

Is he a WR/RB, or a RB/WR ??

To be honest the NFL has changed on us the last 3 years gentleman. I think the time of the everydown back can be officially regarded as extinct. Everything is now so situational in this league.

I mean last year in Denver who was Denvers main running back? bith players statistics were comparable..

We are all fooling ourselves thinking we will have a primary running back when there really isnt a primary back anymore.

Tiki Barber, LT, Shaun Alexander, Rudi Johnson, Reuban Droughns, Clinton Portis, Curtis Martin, Willis McGahee, Edgerin James,

I can keep going.....

RBBC doesn't work, never has, never will. You need the guy, the franchise guy.

Tatum Bell was being groomed....... hence, Mike Anderson is gone.

I don't get people's obssession with DD. GOOD back with GOOD numbers but not a game breaker and he had a few runs last year where he was caught from behind. I tell you what that does....instead of 6 and more leeway you bog down or take your chances and maybe punt, attempt a FG, etc. It is HUGE. People don't understand that. DD is a good guy and back but I have YET to see one NFL guy say that he is a top back in the NFL...add to that that he misses games with injuries. Even with zone blocking he isn't breaking runs. The response above is correct. You don't need a guy for 20 carries but if Bush can get 15 to 20 TOUCHES and get the shot it changes games. DD is not a franchise back. In fact there is half of me that sees the way Denver has drafted and isn't really sure if RB should not be a 2nd or 3rd rounder and D first(don't bash, just a randon, fleeting though :) )
How many long runs did Rudi Johnson make?? How many times, did he take it to the house?? Yet you don't see the Bengals whining that their RB can't score from 80 yards out..... Rudi gets them 10, maybe 20 yards down the field, and they appreciate it. The rest of the team steps up, and puts points on the board.

But we don't have a Chad Johnson.......... no, we do.. Andre....... We don't have a TJ Hoshmanzada... well, we had Gafney(who will get 1000 yards in 2006)..... We don't have a Carson Palmer... well, we don't.

by the way, DD was ranked in the top ten of all NFL runningbacks in 2005 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2005/regular)
The only man who does his job..... moving the ball downfield..... who does his job.... you hold it against him, because the team couldn't get into the endzone.

infantrycak
04-21-2006, 11:59 PM
It bothers me that of all the highlight clips I've seen of him, at least 80% of the plays are pass plays...

Just curious--does it bother you that 80% of the VY highlight plays are running plays and the other 20% are pass plays whwer the WR is crazy open?

Maybe both are overhyped...

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 12:08 AM
Just curious--does it bother you that 80% of the VY highlight plays are running plays and the other 20% are pass plays whwer the WR is crazy open?

Maybe both are overhyped...

80% aren't running plays......... I do differentiate between running plays, and busted pass plays..... especially when Vince is running towards the sideline, and still, he goes through a progression, sometimes looking at as many as 4 different recievers...... one reason why the WR is so wide open.....

Did you see the one, where the pocket rolls right, but the defense has the play covered. Vince tries to go left, but can't. He tries to go right, but he can't. You can see his head turn, as he tries to escape..... he looks at two recievers, and dumps the ball off to a third......

wags
04-22-2006, 12:21 AM
Did you see the one, where the pocket rolls right,

I'm having a flashback to the Chris Farley skit on SNL.

"Remember when...... that was awesome."

infantrycak
04-22-2006, 12:23 AM
80% aren't running plays......... I do differentiate between running plays, and busted pass plays..... especially when Vince is running towards the sideline, and still, he goes through a progression, sometimes looking at as many as 4 different recievers...... one reason why the WR is so wide open.....

Did you see the one, where the pocket rolls right, but the defense has the play covered. Vince tries to go left, but can't. He tries to go right, but he can't. You can see his head turn, as he tries to escape..... he looks at two recievers, and dumps the ball off to a third......

Yes, I saw the one you claim to be talking about. And when I see the same judgment applied to DC's progressions we can talk about objectivity. VY never in his life hit his 4th progression. Folks like to act like Carr has never hit his 2nd--a rudimentary film review shows he is trying to do so. It is cute on a MB to jump on a bandwagon but it doesn't change the facts.

As for the VY highlights, yes 80% are running plays, i.e. the ball never leaves his hand and he is running. That is an accurate observation as is 90% Reggie Bush highlights have him in the open field making folks look silly rather than pounding it up the middle.

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 12:48 AM
Yes, I saw the one you claim to be talking about. And when I see the same judgment applied to DC's progressions we can talk about objectivity. VY never in his life hit his 4th progression. Folks like to act like Carr has never hit his 2nd--a rudimentary film review shows he is trying to do so. It is cute on a MB to jump on a bandwagon but it doesn't change the facts.

As for the VY highlights, yes 80% are running plays, i.e. the ball never leaves his hand and he is running. That is an accurate observation as is 90% Reggie Bush highlights have him in the open field making folks look silly rather than pounding it up the middle.


There maybe 4 designed running plays at most in the Vince Young highlights I've seen. There are a number of pass plays, many of which are busted plays where Vince runs with the ball.... On those plays, he is acting like a QB would act when protection breaks down....... something we should be interested in.

Reggie, more of his highlights have him in the slot.......... not doing what running backs do.....

In your opinion, would he be worth the #1 as a pure WR?? If so, then why don't we just draft him as a WR??

In your opinion, do you think he would be the #1 rated runningback if it weren't for his WR skills?? Would he be worth the #1 overall, if he were a pure runner??

Tell you what...... help me understand why Reggie will do much better than Brian Westbrook in the NFL, and I'll change my signature..... Help me understand why Westbrook should've been the #1 overall. Tell me why Willie Parker should've been drafted in the first round.....

I'm sorry, I'm a little old fashioned. I want my running backs to run..... I want my QBs to QB...... if that means getting himself out of trouble with his legs, then that's what I want him to do.

Now, maybe I don't share your views on what a Quarterback should be. Maybe I don't see things the way you and your "expert" friends do.... But Jeff Fisher, and his GM seems to see things the way I do, so I guess I'm not crazy.

Runner
04-22-2006, 02:03 AM
UMM, I agree completely and have plenty on positives to say about DD. My post was just a reference to people thinking you can "get by" with DD. Almost every team in the history of the NFL to win a SB has had a franchise/HOF QB or RB. Some had both. Right now we are paying franchise money for a QB we hope turns the corner and money to a RB who is thought of as a "good" RB. I think we can use both RBs if we get Bush and co-exist. As I said in another post there is the smallest part of me that sees how Denver drafted RBs late and can go a different direction.

This is a problem I've been having recently. I see a post that makes me think of a general comment, and I quote the post that made me think of the comment.

I wasn't knocking your post, I was just referencing a fragment of it as a jumping off point to what I wanted to say.

We're cool as far as I'm concerned.

infantrycak
04-22-2006, 08:19 AM
There maybe 4 designed running plays at most in the Vince Young highlights I've seen.

OK, let's do this a little differently. Does it bother you that 90% of VY's highlight reel involves him running or throwing the ball to crazy open receivers? Forget what the called play was--fact is that is what people are talking about when they say non-pro style--in the pros, the QB is rarely if ever told, look to WR#1 and then if he isn't open take off and make the most you can. That may be a throw 1st play, but it is still one where the whole team knows the 2nd option is the QB running. It concerns me that most of Bush's highlights involve open field running. It concerns me that few of VY's highlights involve standing in the pocket and threading the needle. They are both unconventional players.

Reggie, more of his highlights have him in the slot.......... not doing what running backs do.....

More?--not than half you didn't mean if you were having any pretense at objectivity. In any event, the point with either of these guys is a team is going to have to use their talents by designing the O around them. Neither is a conventional player.

Maybe I don't see things the way you and your "expert" friends do.... But Jeff Fisher, and his GM seems to see things the way I do, so I guess I'm not crazy.

Don't know where the expert things came from. In any event, don't play the Jeff Fisher card until you see the 3rd pick in the draft.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 08:32 AM
VY never in his life hit his 4th progression. how in the heck would you know this? I think these arguments on both sides oversimplify too many so-called observations that everyone seems to be making.

infantrycak
04-22-2006, 08:35 AM
how in the heck would you know this?

OK, that was hyperbole--akin to Carr never in his life hit his 2nd progression. Having watched VY most of last season--not every game, but most--I would say there were few if any plays he got to his 4th progression on and often the plays were designed for him to make 1 or 2 reads and then bolt. By the design of the O, VY had few opportunities to look for the 4th receiving option.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 09:04 AM
OK, that was hyperbole--akin to Carr never in his life hit his 2nd progression. Having watched VY most of last season--not every game, but most--I would say there were few if any plays he got to his 4th progression on and often the plays were designed for him to make 1 or 2 reads and then bolt. By the design of the O, VY had few opportunities to look for the 4th receiving option.I understand people knocking VY on this if the Longhorns scored 18-24 points a game...but they averaged 50, and it's not like the Longhorns historically rattle off 50 points a game year in, year out. I don't 'get' most of these arguments.

HoustonFrog
04-22-2006, 09:31 AM
How many long runs did Rudi Johnson make?? How many times, did he take it to the house?? Yet you don't see the Bengals whining that their RB can't score from 80 yards out..... Rudi gets them 10, maybe 20 yards down the field, and they appreciate it. The rest of the team steps up, and puts points on the board.

But we don't have a Chad Johnson.......... no, we do.. Andre....... We don't have a TJ Hoshmanzada... well, we had Gafney(who will get 1000 yards in 2006)..... We don't have a Carson Palmer... well, we don't.

by the way, DD was ranked in the top ten of all NFL runningbacks in 2005 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/RB-RUSHING/2005/regular)
The only man who does his job..... moving the ball downfield..... who does his job.... you hold it against him, because the team couldn't get into the endzone.

You are right in that respect, however I still don't think he is a franchise type back. He is a "nice" back with injury problems. Not every back can break it but as you said they have compliments that help with that. If you upgrade then you aren't worrying about that. I know where your allegiance lies and I don't blame you. I'm not a Carr fan and I think VY is awesome, I just realize that they signed Carr for 8 million(not sure) and that if I am taking a guy to fill in around what they did in the offseason..it is Bush. He is ALSO a hard working, good kid with mad skills. If we traded down it would be Mario. As I also said, I have a small part of me that looks at what Denver did over the years and thinks they can find the RB in the rough somewhere else if they are going to and that you can use #1 elsewhere. I guess you can say I'm the Independent Party..lol

HoustonFrog
04-22-2006, 09:34 AM
This is a problem I've been having recently. I see a post that makes me think of a general comment, and I quote the post that made me think of the comment.

I wasn't knocking your post, I was just referencing a fragment of it as a jumping off point to what I wanted to say.

We're cool as far as I'm concerned.

I got you Runner, thanks. I don't take any of it personally. I was just reinforcing a point trying to use as much logic as my body can pull out.:homer:

Jwwillis
04-22-2006, 09:37 AM
I understand people knocking VY on this if the Longhorns scored 18-24 points a game...but they averaged 50, and it's not like the Longhorns historically rattle off 50 points a game year in, year out. I don't 'get' most of these arguments.

Even so. No guarantees in the NFL. Anybody remember Andre Ware?

I actually wanted to post a message here about DD vs Bush. Most seem to be saying we do not need Bush because we have DD. I can only hope they mean DD's salary because Bush is a far superior athlete not to mention younger. The rap on DD is he doesnt have break away speed. This has cost us a few TD's over the last couple of yrs. With Bush,Mathis,Moulds,Johnson we will finally have team speed.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 09:52 AM
Even so. No guarantees in the NFL. Anybody remember Andre Ware?

other than them both being black and qb's, I don't see the connection.

mexican_texan
04-22-2006, 10:39 AM
other than them both being black and qb's, I don't see the connection.
And they're both hyped QBs from Texas....but Ware was a system QB. VY is an athletic QB.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 10:43 AM
And they're both hyped QBs from TexasSo was Tommy Kramer. so what? I mean...what does that have to do with anything?

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
04-22-2006, 10:48 AM
This board has gotten to be a huge joke as of late with all the nonsense about Vince Young and Reggie Bush being posted. Hopefully everything gets back to normal a week from now.

mexican_texan
04-22-2006, 10:50 AM
So was Tommy Kramer. so what? I mean...what does that have to do with anything?
I couldn't find a comparison either.....but you were looking for similarities.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 10:54 AM
I couldn't find a comparison either.....but you were looking for similarities.I gotcha...but I guess I'm tired of VY compared to every black bust QB you can think of as if it is some kind of fact, and as if all black QB's are the same type of player. we cool. (yeah, I know Kramer was a white qb...save it ;) )

Jwwillis
04-22-2006, 11:19 AM
other than them both being black and qb's, I don't see the connection.

The subject in the previous post was points scored and checking 4 WR. Andre Ware smashed the U of H scoring record. Won the Heisman Trophy and was drafted with high expectations.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 11:21 AM
The subject in the previous post was points scored and checking 4 WR. Andre Ware smashed the U of H scoring record. Won the Heisman Trophy and was drafted with high expectations.I know who he is....he was a run and shoot QB....I still don't see how they are the same...Ware didn't run the ball, and he wasn't too accurate....he was shorter, and scored higher on his wonder-lick....other than that....yeah, both black guys who play QB from Texas...:brickwall

Jwwillis
04-22-2006, 11:27 AM
I gotcha...but I guess I'm tired of VY compared to every black bust QB you can think of as if it is some kind of fact, and as if all black QB's are the same type of player. we cool. (yeah, I know Kramer was a white qb...save it ;) )

Yikes! Your making me sound like a Klux. It was the scoring average that triggered Andre in my mind. Suffice to say, scoring average in College means little in the NFL. Personally I think VY will be an awsome QB. My only concern is at his height he may get clobbered on the scramble.

Vinny
04-22-2006, 11:36 AM
Yikes! Your making me sound like a Klux. It was the scoring average that triggered Andre in my mind. Suffice to say, scoring average in College means little in the NFL. Personally I think VY will be an awsome QB. My only concern is at his height he may get clobbered on the scramble.I only brought up average because people are dogging Young for what he wasn't doing. Teams just don't throw the ball when up by a score of 53-12 (unless you are in the chuck n duck offense). I don't grasp their argument that he wasn't showing enough to make it in the NFL....I've probably seen every game of his barring one or two...I just don't compute this argument since he can do everything any other QB can do...and a bit more.

swtbound07
04-22-2006, 11:51 AM
The thing is, people want to call Vince a system qb, and gleefully ignore the fact that reggie is just as much a product of the pete carroll system. Vince didn't play many 2nd halfs....when you are putting up 50 points in the first half, its not necessary. The thing is, people want to act like every quarterback in the NCAA was putting up Vince young numbers, and like every qb in the draft possess his skillset. I find it interesting that the main knock on vince is his mechanics, when if you search this board from about a year ago, people were knocking carr for his delivery and motion. Vince will be fine..he gets the ball there how he gets there.

disaacks3
04-22-2006, 11:53 AM
I only brought up average because people are dogging Young for what he wasn't doing. Teams just don't throw the ball when up by a score of 53-12 (unless you are in the chuck n duck offense). I don't grasp their argument that he wasn't showing enough to make it in the NFL....I've probably seen every game of his barring one or two...I just don't compute this argument since he can do everything any other QB can do...and a bit more.I've seen almost every down of his days as a starter too, and I haven't seen much evidence of him being comfortable as a pocket passer and throwing deep into coverage accurately. Perhaps, those chances were few & far between, but it's still a question that remains to be answered.

Now, back to your scheduled topic...

DD has been a fantastic player for where we got him in the draft, but he's certainly been injury-plagued to a certain extent. The same worries that people have about Bush's durability come into play here. Kubiak comes from a RB-by-committee system, so it stands to reason that he'd like enough backs to keep it fresh and allow for changing the pace of a game.

Are DD's numbers "good enough"? Sure they are. He may not be LT, but in my book he's done more to try and carry this team on his back than anyone. Still, wouldn't it be great to have someone to spell him every once in awhile? Maybe even a back that we won't have a drop off of production with? I'd hoped that Morency would fill those shoes, but it was obvious last year that he still needs more time to develop, despite flashes of what "could be".

7 more days guys & gals....then we can let the SECOND-GUESSING begin again... :redtowel:

tsip
04-22-2006, 12:51 PM
"I've seen almost every down of his days as a starter too, and I haven't seen much evidence of him being comfortable as a pocket passer and throwing deep into coverage accurately. Perhaps, those chances were few & far between, but it's still a question that remains to be answered."

It's kinda funny the way some folks make general statements they believe are factual, with no evidence to back them up. From what you say about VY above, are you infering that Carr was a more comfortable pocket passer his Sr yr at Fresno and more accurate?

FACT #1 YPA YPC
Carr 9.1 14.1
Young 9.2 14.1

FACT #2 ACCURACY
Carr 64.5
Young 64.9

tsip
04-22-2006, 01:08 PM
Deep balls. Carr threw over 480 passes for 4800 yds+, so guess which QB threw a lot more short passes!...throwing so many short passes also inflated his accuracy percentage.

disaacks3
04-22-2006, 01:29 PM
Deep balls. Carr threw over 480 passes for 4800 yds+, so guess which QB threw a lot more short passes!...throwing so many short passes also inflated his accuracy percentage. If you're trying to compare VY vs. Carr as a college PASSER, you're nuts. It'd be the same as comparing Carr's running ability to VY...there's simply no comparison.

Hey, I don't care if you HATE Carr as an NFL QB, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Carr's mobility was an unknown coming into the NFL, as he rarely had to scramble at Fresno State. VY's biggest question marks regard his ability to succeed as an under-center Pro-Style pocket-passer.

I know it's hard to take off those burnt-orange glasses, especially when your handle is "tsip", but give it a rest... :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 01:42 PM
UMM, I agree completely and have plenty on positives to say about DD. My post was just a reference to people thinking you can "get by" with DD. Almost every team in the history of the NFL to win a SB has had a franchise/HOF QB or RB. Some had both. Right now we are paying franchise money for a QB we hope turns the corner and money to a RB who is thought of as a "good" RB. I think we can use both RBs if we get Bush and co-exist. As I said in another post there is the smallest part of me that sees how Denver drafted RBs late and can go a different direction.

You put a HOF QB on a bad team, he'll look like an average qb.. You put an avg QB on a bad team, and he'll look like a poor QB. You put a poor QB on a poor team, and he'll look like a POS.

You put a HOF RB on a poor team, he'll look like a good/avg RB. You put an avg RB on a poor team, he'll look like a poor RB. You put a poor RB on a poor team, he'll look like a POS.....

If that is true..... and simple logic would lead you to believe it is...... then DD is a bargain, @ $5 mil/yr......


OK, let's do this a little differently. Does it bother you that 90% of VY's highlight reel involves him running or throwing the ball to crazy open receivers? Forget what the called play was--fact is that is what people are talking about when they say non-pro style--in the pros, the QB is rarely if ever told, look to WR#1 and then if he isn't open take off and make the most you can. That may be a throw 1st play, but it is still one where the whole team knows the 2nd option is the QB running.
What were we telling David to do??

It concerns me that most of Bush's highlights involve open field running. It concerns me that few of VY's highlights involve standing in the pocket and threading the needle. They are both unconventional players.
True.

More?--not than half you didn't mean if you were having any pretense at objectivity. In any event, the point with either of these guys is a team is going to have to use their talents by designing the O around them. Neither is a conventional player.
But Vince has the tools. His effeciency(sp) rating, his completion percentage, and the work he's done at his pro-day, and his private workout with the Houston Texans all suggest, that he is just as accurate as any QB ever taken with the #1 overall pick. Steve McNair, Donavan McNabb, Dante Culpepper, John Elway have proven that a QB with Vince's skills can make the transition from Running QB to pocket passer....... & that his particular set of skills can help a young team experience success, as they all learn to play, and get better.

Gayle Sayers....... I imagine he was a #1 overall, or at least played at a level that would justify a #1 overall pick...... I don't know. never saw the guy.

Marshall Faulk....... if my goal was to put together a "greatest show on turf" offense, and I had experience running that offense(if I were Mike Martz, or one of the coaches out of his tree), then Reggie Bush would be high on my list. If I were Denver, or a coach out of the Shanahan tree, I'd be looking for more of a pure runner. D'Angelo Williams, Moroney, Addai..... if I were looking to draft a RB in the first round..... but if I had DD, I wouldn't be looking to address RB till the second day....... unless there is an exceptional talent that may be available in the third, where I've got 2 picks, and took care of most of my more pressing needs in FA.

Brian WestBrook....... IMHO, was a waste of a first round pick........ there is still no running threat in Philly, other than Mcnabb.

Willie Parker..... 4.7 ypcarry........ 12.1 ypcatch. Most definitely appears to play at a 1st round selection.... based on his NFL sophomore season, would I consider him in the first round?? would I consider him in the top 10??

Yes...... but he is more of a running threat.... he's more of a pure runner.

Now if Kubiak is sitting on 13 games of film & he's seeing Reggie can run the ball in his system, then I'm all for that. I on the hand, am not privy to such, and that being the case, I'm having a hard time seeing a change-of-pace running back/slot reciever as the #1 overall, and paying him $45 million.

Don't know where the expert things came from. In any event, don't play the Jeff Fisher card until you see the 3rd pick in the draft. Fair...... I don't know what I was thinking.....

OK, that was hyperbole--akin to Carr never in his life hit his 2nd progression. Having watched VY most of last season--not every game, but most--I would say there were few if any plays he got to his 4th progression on and often the plays were designed for him to make 1 or 2 reads and then bolt. By the design of the O, VY had few opportunities to look for the 4th receiving option.

I wish I could be more specific, but in one of the highlight films, there are two broken plays.. Vince takes off to his right. On both such plays, you can see Vince Clearly spot and identify 3 posible recievers. Vince throws, and makes a completion to that 3rd reciever, who would be the fourth. On one of those two. The one he is being dragged(grammar) down by two defensive players, his 1st option was there...... he takes off to the right. He identifies a dump off on his right, near the sidelines.... he's covered at the time. Vince looks to the left, he sees another player covered. he looks back to the right, and throws the ball to the guy he saw covered a little earlier..... it's also a completion. That would be his 4th read...... 4th option.

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 01:55 PM
You are right in that respect, however I still don't think he is a franchise type back. He is a "nice" back with injury problems. Not every back can break it but as you said they have compliments that help with that. If you upgrade then you aren't worrying about that. I know where your allegiance lies and I don't blame you. I'm not a Carr fan and I think VY is awesome, I just realize that they signed Carr for 8 million(not sure) and that if I am taking a guy to fill in around what they did in the offseason..it is Bush. He is ALSO a hard working, good kid with mad skills. If we traded down it would be Mario. As I also said, I have a small part of me that looks at what Denver did over the years and thinks they can find the RB in the rough somewhere else if they are going to and that you can use #1 elsewhere. I guess you can say I'm the Independent Party..lol
Trade down, or Draft Vince..... that's where I was.... and I still hope(lay off) it could happen... my hopes have been greatly reduced since the signing of Sage Rosenfells..... Davids $8 mill didn't sway me none.

But if we don't draft Vince, that's Okay...... now the question is, Is Reggie Bush the best use of the #1 overall. With or without Vince Young in the mix...... I don't think we need to invest so much in a runningback....... with DD and Morency, and Kubiaks system, and Sherman in tow.....

Are there any other talents @ the top of the draft worthy of the #1?? I don't know who is who..... I've stated such before..... but I know QB isn't a big need. I know RB isn't a big need. OL, and our defensive pass rush have only been addressed on paper........ no new talent.

I don't want to go into next season with 2 running backs. I don't want to go into next season without a reason to believe my pass rush is better. I don't want to go into next season without some young promising players on the OL(I'm thinking more along the lines of depth on the OL.. someone we can groom, but maybe start if we need him)..

IMHO, I haven't seen anything to make me think Reggie Bush shoud be the #1 overall..... he's not good enough to move to Reciever.... not good enough to make a pure runner..... I know...... I know....... I'm simple minded. But no one in the NFL has effectively run an offense with such a "versatile" player...... no one save Mike Martz..... do we have any reason to believe Kubiak, Sherman, Calhoun, & little Shanahan know what to do with a Reggie Bush??

Is Mario Worthy of the #1?? they're saying better than Jevon Kearse.... the Freak. Better than Julius Peppers....... they're saying he most likely won't be their at 3, if we don't take him with the #1.

tsip
04-22-2006, 01:56 PM
If you're trying to compare VY vs. Carr as a college PASSER, you're nuts. It'd be the same as comparing Carr's running ability to VY...there's simply no comparison.

Hey, I don't care if you HATE Carr as an NFL QB, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Carr's mobility was an unknown coming into the NFL, as he rarely had to scramble at Fresno State. VY's biggest question marks regard his ability to succeed as an under-center Pro-Style pocket-passer.

I know it's hard to take off those burnt-orange glasses, especially when your handle is "tsip", but give it a rest... :rolleyes:

I'm always amazed by a poster that believes they are 'all knowing!' I'm not a Carr hater but I'm anxiously looking forward to a productive career from him, hopefully sooner than later. And, this is a public forum. That means it's ok for people to not agree. It's sad you can not post without the put downs, says a lot about you as a person...what college did you go to?:yahoo:

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 02:16 PM
I've seen almost every down of his days as a starter too, and I haven't seen much evidence of him being comfortable as a pocket passer and throwing deep into coverage accurately. Perhaps, those chances were few & far between, but it's still a question that remains to be answered.
:redtowel:

Are we talking about Young or Carr??

If you're trying to compare VY vs. Carr as a college PASSER, you're nuts. It'd be the same as comparing Carr's running ability to VY...there's simply no comparison.

Hey, I don't care if you HATE Carr as an NFL QB, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Carr's mobility was an unknown coming into the NFL, as he rarely had to scramble at Fresno State. VY's biggest question marks regard his ability to succeed as an under-center Pro-Style pocket-passer.

I know it's hard to take off those burnt-orange glasses, especially when your handle is "tsip", but give it a rest... :rolleyes:

lets think about this for a minute... I don't know how accurate those numbers are. For the sake of this argument, let's assume they are the correct.

YPA......... identical. YPC......... identicall...... completion percentage.... nearly identical.......

once again, logically, wouldn't it be safe to assume if they each threw the ball the same number of times..... attempts....... the total yardage would be the same??

Even with out extrapolating Vince's passing yards.... when the numbers are the same, how can you say Vince can't compare to David?? That is what's so special about Vince.... he can throw the ball as well as anyone who ever came out of college........ & he is as effective running the ball as anyone coming out of college.

Look at it another way....... he can throw better than all running QBs...... & he can run better than all pure passers......

Is he intelligent enough to learn the pro system?? I would think you'd have to sit and talk with him to find out how intelligent he is.... how football smart is he. How QB savy.

I have no question about his ability to read a defense whil running backwards. But I understand why some would.

disaacks3
04-22-2006, 06:43 PM
I'm always amazed by a poster that believes they are 'all knowing!' I'm not a Carr hater but I'm anxiously looking forward to a productive career from him, hopefully sooner than later. And, this is a public forum. That means it's ok for people to not agree. It's sad you can not post without the put downs, says a lot about you as a person...what college did you go to?:yahoo:
It's kinda funny the way some folks make general statements they believe are factual, with no evidence to back them up. From what you say about VY above, are you infering that Carr was a more comfortable pocket passer his Sr yr at Fresno and more accurate? So, who is taking potshots at whom? :confused: I still stand by my Assertions regarding Carr at the Collegiate level. What was VY's TD to INT ratio again? Tell me again how many of those passes VY made with a 3-5 step drop and from the pocket? How about listing Fresno State's Offensive lineman who were projected early-round choices in the next draft. How about Fresno's defensive ranking Carr's Senior season?

You've cherry-picked your stats to paint a comparison of VY & Carr without bothering to acknowledge that as collegiate PASSERS, there is no basis for your comparison. Carr's senior season is one of the best in college history as a passer.

4,839 vs. 3,036 PASSING Yds.
49TDs / 9 Int vs. 26TDs / 10 Int. - Does that "evidence" permeate the Vinsanity? If you think these are "comparable" passing stats, then more power to you. I make no claim to be all-knowing, I just seem to be able to read a stat sheet quicker than the average VY prophet.

I think VY is a extremely talented athlete that an NFL franchise will be lucky to get...IF they plan on re-educating him to a Pro-set offense or IF they plan on building their offense around HIM. Anything else would be a waste of VY's talents and the fans' time.

I went to two Universities that had neither Burnt Orange or Maroon in their color schemes. My loyalty lies with the Texans and their coaching staff, not some silly home-town (or home state) hero B.S. that has little place at the professional level...except to marketing executives.

once again, logically, wouldn't it be safe to assume if they each threw the ball the same number of times..... attempts....... the total yardage would be the same?? No, that would be a FALSE assumption. You're assuming that VY would be capable of putting up those numbers in a more "pass-happy" offense. It's just as likely that without VYs "wheels" as a threat, his numbers would be lower since the defense wouldn't need to guard against the scramble as often.

thunderkyss
04-22-2006, 08:32 PM
No, that would be a FALSE assumption. You're assuming that VY would be capable of putting up those numbers in a more "pass-happy" offense. It's just as likely that without VYs "wheels" as a threat, his numbers would be lower since the defense wouldn't need to guard against the scramble as often.

You are most likely correct.... without Vince's "wheels", he more than likely wouldn't have those wide open recievers to throw the ball to. I'll give you that.
But he has those wheels..... & I would bet if he ever had to throw the ball 56 times in a game, with 9.2 ypa, 14.1 avg ypcompletion, and a 64.9 completion%, I'd hazard to guess that he'd have somewhere between 550 & 585 yards on the day.

tsip
04-22-2006, 09:15 PM
"I went to two Universities that had neither Burnt Orange or Maroon in their color schemes. My loyalty lies with the Texans and their coaching staff, not some silly home-town (or home state) hero B.S. that has little place at the professional level...except to marketing executives."


...so, once again, you think you are 'all knowing!' Sorry, but collegiate loyalty exists at all levels of society. That is a given. Think about it. Your'e in Lima, Peru for a soccer game and you see a player with a bandanna from your school--get goose bumps? Feel pride? No, you probally don't and that's OK because guess what...a lot of folks would. Heck, I'd even feel a sense of pride if the player was an Aggie!

...at least VY posters don't make excuses for him...