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BornOrange
08-01-2008, 11:01 AM
In today's AFC South Blog, there is an article about the Texans cut blocking scheme along with reaction from Mario Williams and Albert Haynesworth, along with a video by Mark Schlereth.

ESPN article and video on cut blocking (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-3-1/Texans-ready-to-cut-block--take-flack.html)

gtexan02
08-01-2008, 11:14 AM
As excited as I am about the new offensive scheme, I do have to admit I don't like the cut block.

Its even more depressing when Kubiak specifically states he won't cut block in practice or against Denver because he doesn't want to hurt those players. But he'll cut block Tampa, NO, and Dal and th erest of our opponents

HOU-TEX
08-01-2008, 11:22 AM
As excited as I am about the new offensive scheme, I do have to admit I don't like the cut block.

Its even more depressing when Kubiak specifically states he won't cut block in practice or against Denver because he doesn't want to hurt those players. But he'll cut block Tampa, NO, and Dal and th erest of our opponents

Where did he say that?

eriadoc
08-01-2008, 11:25 AM
As excited as I am about the new offensive scheme, I do have to admit I don't like the cut block.

Its even more depressing when Kubiak specifically states he won't cut block in practice or against Denver because he doesn't want to hurt those players. But he'll cut block Tampa, NO, and Dal and th erest of our opponents

I agree. Football is a violent sport, and injuries happen just because big, fast guys are flying around hitting each other. The cut block seems like a deliberate attempt to injure, though. Sure, the coaches can all talk about technique, and getting out in front, and eye contact, etc., but at the end of the day, they've acknowledged that it's a bigger injury risk by not using it against opponents in a preseason game (if that's what they do). To me, it crosses a line,and it's cheap. I kind of feel like I'm rooting for John Stockton.

I have to admit, one Titan gave a quote that I respect a lot:

Tony Brown, Titans defensive tackle: "I dislike it. I feel like that's the offensive lineman's cheap way out of it. We're all out there trying to fight and compete. If you want to be a man about it, try to block someone one-on-one, don't cut him. We're not going to like it, but at the same time that's what they are being coached to do. So we know they are not trying to be personal about it. That's their scheme. It's up to us as a defensive line to keep them from doing us like that. What you want to do is make sure you get your hands on them as much as you can, because if you come off the ball and don't have any hands, they're going to go at your feet quicker than you imagine. One mistake from you, you know you're going to be down, and there goes the ball cut into your gap."

Haynesworthlessness is not capable of understanding this, evidently.

gtexan02
08-01-2008, 11:28 AM
The Texans won't likely tick off the Denver Broncos in the preseason opener, since the scheme assistant coach Alex Gibbs, essentially the run game coordinator, brought to Houston was the same one he installed and ran in Denver years ago.

But New Orleans, Dallas and Tampa Bay may not be very happy that their top defensive linemen are susceptible to cut blocks in the preseason.

Not from Kubiak, but in the article

dtran04
08-01-2008, 11:31 AM
I say if you're gonna do it, you have to do it to everyone. Sparing a team because you like them doesn't really help the image of cut blocking.

infantrycak
08-01-2008, 11:39 AM
Not from Kubiak, but in the article

So it is purely speculation by a guy who just recently got his gig covering the AFC South.

Polo
08-01-2008, 11:41 AM
Cut blocking doesn't cause anymore injuries than regular blocking...

Guys just don't like it because they hate eating turf....No one likes their legs taken away from them....It makes you feel helpless...

If Offensive lineman can no longer cutblock, defenders can no longer go at running backs legs...It's cheap...Be a man and Tackle that 250 lb bruiser back up high!!!!

Polo
08-01-2008, 11:43 AM
In fact, lets just make it illegal to hit any player below the belt....like boxing....

HOU-TEX
08-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Cut blocking doesn't cause anymore injuries than regular blocking...

Guys just don't like it because they hate eating turf....No one likes their legs taken away from them....It makes you feel helpless...


Damn straight!

Signed,

Travis Johnson

RTP2110
08-01-2008, 12:02 PM
Not from Kubiak, but in the article

He's not saying that we won't cut block Denver. he's saying that Denver won't be ticked off about us doing it, since they are used to playing against it already.

TEXANS84
08-01-2008, 12:13 PM
I don't like cut blocks either. We are going to be hated for this, but if that's what it takes to win, I'm all for it.

dalemurphy
08-01-2008, 12:31 PM
Cut blocking doesn't cause anymore injuries than regular blocking...



That's true. The problem is when the cut comes from the backside and perhaps the player is already engaged. While that's not legal and not taught, the reality is that if you cut block regularly there will be more instances of this happening. Similarly, if you use a punch as an offensive lineman, you are more likely to hit a guy in the face.

b0ng
08-01-2008, 01:18 PM
Anything the Texans can do to piss off Haynesworth is fine by me. If the last NFL szeason taught me anything, fans will hate a team for any number of irrational reasons. A lot of east coast based sportswriters hate Houston already so I'll be fine with a little more hate if we're winning.

I've never felt cheap about any win my team has had playing football, and I'm not about to start because some opposing defensive lineman don't like it. Sign me up I'm all about going all-out to win.

MightyTExan
08-01-2008, 01:25 PM
It's time for us to start dishing out the punishment instead of taking all these years.

Texan_Bill
08-01-2008, 01:46 PM
Albert Haynesworth, Titans defensive tackle: "They always talk about us being dirty, maybe they need to look at that, trying to hurt people and stuff. If they aren't man enough to stay up, shoot, they shouldn't be in the league then. The coach, either."

Ya know Fat Albert. I've been wrong about you. You're not dirty. Because driving QB's into the turf with the intent of hurting them AND stompin a mudhole in someone's dome is never dirty. :rolleyes:

Asshat!!!

cuppacoffee
08-01-2008, 01:46 PM
That's true. The problem is when the cut comes from the backside and perhaps the player is already engaged. While that's not legal and not taught, the reality is that if you cut block regularly there will be more instances of this happening. Similarly, if you use a punch as an offensive lineman, you are more likely to hit a guy in the face.


To quote an old saying...."Sometimes you're the statue, sometimes you're the pigeon."

Its time the Texans stopped being the statue...:hunter:



:coffee:

Honoring Earl 34
08-01-2008, 02:07 PM
To quote an old saying...."Sometimes you're the statue, sometimes you're the pigeon."

Its time the Texans stopped being the statue...:hunter:



:coffee:

If it's your team ... then we're scrappy .

If it's their team ... their dirty .

Here's to a scrappy season .

nunusguy
08-01-2008, 02:27 PM
***
"It's all in how you cut someone. If you make eye contact, if your head is in front, then it's a legitimate cut," Gibbs said. "If you do something cheap, if you take the back of a guy's legs out, that's not nearly as cool. I don't operate that way. I don't do things like that."
***
not just uncool but also a clip, right coach ?

Said Daniels: "Say you beat me across the face and then I am cutting your back leg. I don't know if that's a penalty, but that's definitely something guys will get more mad about."
***
Yea Owen, that's a penalty because it constitutes a clip as I understand
the meaning of that term.
***************************************

If this is really of interest to you, be sure to watch the video featuring Mark Schlereth, former Broncos Olineman who is an authority on this technique. He clearly explains that hitting the back of the leg constitutes a clip and the area to aim for on the cut-block is between the waist and the kneee, not below the knee.
But there seems to be some inconsistancy in Daniels remarks, and even what Gibbs says is legal vs what Sclereth says ?
But all in all though, I've got to think the technique wouldn't be legal if there was a real concern to injury to defensive players. Afterall, these owners have been known to pay some pretty big bucks to DLineman and one has got to think they'd object to this technique if it was that dangerous.
And one more thing, I can't think of anyother technique that is not tested, developed during the week at practice but just used during games ?

Heath Shuler
08-01-2008, 02:35 PM
There is sometimes a real fine line between a legal cut block and an illegal chop block (a matter of inches, having your head ahead of the d-lineman or behind) and a lot of fans don’t know the difference.

infantrycak
08-01-2008, 02:36 PM
But there seems to be some inconsistancy in Daniels remarks,

Daniels didn't say back of the leg he said back leg.

TexanAddict
08-01-2008, 02:39 PM
He's not saying that we won't cut block Denver. he's saying that Denver won't be ticked off about us doing it, since they are used to playing against it already.

This is how I understood that comment as well

Thorn
08-01-2008, 02:49 PM
I need to watch the video on cut blocking when I get home, can't see it at work. But you know, if the O-linemen make illegal blocks they'll be called on it. If they get a reputation amoung the refs for lots of illegal blocks, they come under scrutiny. But if it's legal, it's just football.

I'm sure Gibbs knows what he's doing, it's how our linemen execute is the deal.

nunusguy
08-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Daniels didn't say back of the leg he said back leg.

If he means the "back leg" and not "back of the leg" then of course you're right, and Owen is legal. And you're right, he was quoted as saying "back leg".
On the other hand coachs remark "if you take the back of a guy's legs out, that's not nearly as cool", crosses the line between not cool into what's not legal, maybe ? There's some ambiguity in that chose of words.
Bit I definitely gotta think Gibbs knows the difference and/or wouldn't go on the record leaving the impression he doesn't. Therefor it leaves one to think he was misquoted or didn't choose his words as carefully as he might have.
At the very least, the technique is very controversial.

Honoring Earl 34
08-01-2008, 02:53 PM
I need to watch the video on cut blocking when I get home, can't see it at work. But you know, if the O-linemen make illegal blocks they'll be called on it. If they get a reputation amoung the refs for lots of illegal blocks, they come under scrutiny. But if it's legal, it's just football.

I'm sure Gibbs knows what he's doing, it's how our linemen execute is the deal.

I think it's alot of mind games also . Kinda like having a peputation for a spit ball ... pretty soon your more worried about the pitch than hitting it .

Polo
08-01-2008, 03:42 PM
You can chop the back of D-linemen's legs in the trenches

Hervoyel
08-01-2008, 03:56 PM
In fact, lets just make it illegal to hit any player below the belt....like boxing....


Why stop there and emulate a brutal sport like boxing. I say we stop this hitting business entirely. I have this idea where the players each wear two flags at their waist......

Señor Stan
08-01-2008, 04:38 PM
Why stop there and emulate a brutal sport like boxing. I say we stop this hitting business entirely. I have this idea where the players each wear two flags at their waist......


Lance Berkman tore up his knee playing flag football, so running is out of the question. We could go with some fast walking Doctor Detroit style....


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g67/senorstan/detroit3.jpg

Insideop
08-01-2008, 05:20 PM
***
"It's all in how you cut someone. If you make eye contact, if your head is in front, then it's a legitimate cut," Gibbs said. "If you do something cheap, if you take the back of a guy's legs out, that's not nearly as cool. I don't operate that way. I don't do things like that."
***
not just uncool but also a clip, right coach ?

Said Daniels: "Say you beat me across the face and then I am cutting your back leg. I don't know if that's a penalty, but that's definitely something guys will get more mad about."
***
Yea Owen, that's a penalty because it constitutes a clip as I understand
the meaning of that term.
***************************************

If this is really of interest to you, be sure to watch the video featuring Mark Schlereth, former Broncos Olineman who is an authority on this technique. He clearly explains that hitting the back of the leg constitutes a clip and the area to aim for on the cut-block is between the waist and the kneee, not below the knee.

But there seems to be some inconsistancy in Daniels remarks, and even what Gibbs says is legal vs what Sclereth says ?
But all in all though, I've got to think the technique wouldn't be legal if there was a real concern to injury to defensive players. Afterall, these owners have been known to pay some pretty big bucks to DLineman and one has got to think they'd object to this technique if it was that dangerous.
And one more thing, I can't think of anyother technique that is not tested, developed during the week at practice but just used during games ?

Gibbs never made this statement. It was Pitts. The article has been corrected and they made this post in the comment section:

Because of an editing error, a quote in this post on cut blocking was initially attributed to Alex Gibbs. The quote was from Chester Pitts. The attribution for the quote has been corrected. -- Paul Kuharsky

Just wanted to clarify this.

nunusguy
08-01-2008, 05:46 PM
Gibbs never made this statement. It was Pitts. The article has been corrected and they made this post in the comment section:

Because of an editing error, a quote in this post on cut blocking was initially attributed to Alex Gibbs. The quote was from Chester Pitts. The attribution for the quote has been corrected. -- Paul Kuharsky

Just wanted to clarify this.

Yea, went back and checked the article and it's definitely been amended. Thanks for the heads-up Insideop.

Thorn
08-01-2008, 06:13 PM
OK, seen the video, don't see a problem with cut blocking as long as it's executed properly.

Lucky
08-01-2008, 07:46 PM
As Daniels is quoted in the article, the psychological impact of the block is perhaps more effective than the block itself.

There is also a mind-game element in Gibbs' method.


"I think it just makes guys more tentative, makes guys a little softer," Daniels said. "If they are getting cut they are going to back up a little bit when they think they are going to get cut again. And maybe that's not what we're doing this time."
The preseason hasn't even begun, and the Texans have opponents thinking about the cut block. That hesitation should also slow defenders on play action passes, opening up the Andres to big plays down field.

ObsiWan
08-01-2008, 08:58 PM
In today's AFC South Blog, there is an article about the Texans cut blocking scheme along with reaction from Mario Williams and Albert Haynesworth, along with a video by Mark Schlereth.

ESPN article and video on cut blocking (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-3-1/Texans-ready-to-cut-block--take-flack.html)

interesting article. thanks for the link.
what I found even more interesting were some of the reader comments - "well, if you won't do it in practice, why would you do it in a game?"
please....
No team hits their own QBs in practice.
No team allows their WRs to be "blown up" by their own LBs or safeties in practice.
No team crushes RBs in practice (unless you're Chris Taylor)
what a bunch of whinners....

ObsiWan
08-01-2008, 09:03 PM
OK, seen the video, don't see a problem with cut blocking as long as it's executed properly.

Exactly.
Don't want to start getting a rash of penalties because the guys aren't "getting across the bow" as Schlereth said. Not much worse than having a big gain or TD called back because of clipping.

CloakNNNdagger
08-01-2008, 09:55 PM
***
"It's all in how you cut someone. If you make eye contact, if your head is in front, then it's a legitimate cut," Gibbs said. "If you do something cheap, if you take the back of a guy's legs out, that's not nearly as cool. I don't operate that way. I don't do things like that."
***
not just uncool but also a clip, right coach ?

Said Daniels: "Say you beat me across the face and then I am cutting your back leg. I don't know if that's a penalty, but that's definitely something guys will get more mad about."
***
Yea Owen, that's a penalty because it constitutes a clip as I understand
the meaning of that term.
***************************************

If this is really of interest to you, be sure to watch the video featuring Mark Schlereth, former Broncos Olineman who is an authority on this technique. He clearly explains that hitting the back of the leg constitutes a clip and the area to aim for on the cut-block is between the waist and the kneee, not below the knee. But there seems to be some inconsistancy in Daniels remarks, and even what Gibbs says is legal vs what Sclereth says ?
But all in all though, I've got to think the technique wouldn't be legal if there was a real concern to injury to defensive players. Afterall, these owners have been known to pay some pretty big bucks to DLineman and one has got to think they'd object to this technique if it was that dangerous.
And one more thing, I can't think of anyother technique that is not tested, developed during the week at practice but just used during games ?


Are you sure about this? All descriptions of the difference between the cut block (legal) and chop block (illegal) are where the position of the helmet is.........in the case of the cut block, in front of the DL.........in the case of the chop block, to the side or from the back of the DL (or if the DL is already engaged). Both can occur BELOW the knee.

CloakNNNdagger
08-01-2008, 10:00 PM
As excited as I am about the new offensive scheme, I do have to admit I don't like the cut block.

Its even more depressing when Kubiak specifically states he won't cut block in practice or against Denver because he doesn't want to hurt those players. But he'll cut block Tampa, NO, and Dal and th erest of our opponents

I guarantee you that if the Texans don't cut block in the Broncos game, it will only be because they have a deal with Denver to be avoiding the same.

cuppacoffee
08-01-2008, 10:39 PM
Are you sure about this? All descriptions of the difference between the cut block (legal) and chop block (illegal) are where the position of the helmet is.........in the case of the cut block, in front of the DL.........in the case of the chop block, to the side or from the back of the DL (or if the DL is already engaged). Both can occur BELOW the knee.


I thought the chop block involved cut blocking a player while he was engaged/being blocked by another player?..:confused:..idonno:



:coffee:

CloakNNNdagger
08-01-2008, 10:58 PM
I thought the chop block involved cut blocking a player while he was engaged/being blocked by another player?..:confused:..idonno:



:coffee:

I believe that the cut block (if performed legally with front position helmet) is only illegal if the defender is already engaged.

nunusguy
08-02-2008, 08:15 AM
Are you sure about this? All descriptions of the difference between the cut block (legal) and chop block (illegal) are where the position of the helmet is.........in the case of the cut block, in front of the DL.........in the case of the chop block, to the side or from the back of the DL (or if the DL is already engaged). Both can occur BELOW the knee.
Did you watch the video ? Schlereth was very explicit when he said the target area was the knee-thigh pad, which sounds like the area between the waist and knee to me. And he also articulates very nicely the angle the blocker needs to take on the defender. But I gotta say ouch !
Schlereth also explains OLineman would only use the technique on the backside of the play and not onside or play side. The X-Bronco player does a great job in the video.

HJam72
08-02-2008, 09:29 AM
I thought the chop block involved cut blocking a player while he was engaged/being blocked by another player?..:confused:..idonno:



:coffee:

I don't think that's a requirement to be a cut block, it just usually happens that way....sort of.

HJam72
08-02-2008, 09:30 AM
He said that getting below the knees will allow the defender to jump over you. That's the problem with it.

Thorn
08-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Could it be that our historical weak point suddenly becomes a strong point? This season will be very interesting, one way or the other.

gtexan02
08-02-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't think the problem with cut blocking is performing it legally. If performed correctly, it isn't so bad.

Its just that if you use it regularly in a game, and even with the best of intentions, a quick move by the D can suddenly cause your eye to eye front faced cut into a back cut and cause serious injury

I get that its all in the name of competition, and this is football after all, not basketball or something. But at the same time, if there is a maneuver that is so risky they don't ever practice it on their own guys, doesn't that seem a little cheap?

Im just glad we're the ones using it, and not one of the other tems in the division. I never cheer when a player gets injured, but if its Haynesworth this year, I can't say I'll be too disapointed

CloakNNNdagger
08-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Did you watch the video ? Schlereth was very explicit when he said the target area was the knee-thigh pad, which sounds like the area between the waist and knee to me. And he also articulates very nicely the angle the blocker needs to take on the defender. But I gotta say ouch !
Schlereth also explains OLineman would only use the technique on the backside of the play and not onside or play side. The X-Bronco player does a great job in the video.

You're correct..........he's stating that this area is the most consistently effective for targeting. On the other hand, I was trying to make the point that cut blocking can occur below the knee..........and still be a legal block.:ok:

HJam72
08-02-2008, 11:09 AM
When you stick your helmet between their knees, now that's a problem. Just ask TJ. :)

CloakNNNdagger
08-02-2008, 12:00 PM
When you stick your helmet between their knees, now that's a problem. Just ask TJ. :)

The ole "Nut Cracker" block..........and it's legal!!!!!:gun:

ObsiWan
08-02-2008, 02:12 PM
The ole "Nut Cracker" block..........and it's legal!!!!!:gun:
ouch!

Hook'er
08-04-2008, 07:31 AM
Could it be that our historical weak point suddenly becomes a strong point? This season will be very interesting, one way or the other.

I can't wait,Thorn!:texflag:

Polo
08-04-2008, 10:06 AM
I get that its all in the name of competition, and this is football after all, not basketball or something. But at the same time, if there is a maneuver that is so risky they don't ever practice it on their own guys, doesn't that seem a little cheap?

We also don't allow the QB to be touched...

We don't wan't our DB's taking recievers legs from under neath them if they have to make jumping catches...

We also have a bunch of non-contact practices so no one has a higher risk of injury...

There are a bunch of precautionary measures taken at practice that are designed to keep your team healthy...

Doesn't make the team "dirty" because they'd rather not go full out against their own guys...