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Porky
07-30-2008, 10:14 AM
And it appears that once again, we have had an outstanding draft.

Granted, we haven't even seen these guys in live game action, but all of the early indicators are looking good on every one of these guys. There is no talk of someone being a disapointment, or playing catch up, etc.

Here's a brief look on some of what I have seen/heard/read on each of these guys -

Duane Brown - early reports are that he appears light and nimble on his feet, with good quickness. Most importantly, he seems to be more than holding his own as a pass protector, which is job one. Might be a litle behind in the run blocking, but no reason to think he can't improve there. I don't know if he will start at Pitt, but expect him to be the starter around the quarter mark myself. We'll see.

Antwaun Molden - From multiple sources, appears to be having an exceptional camp. If he keeps it up, I could also see him pushing Reeves early in the season, and he will get plenty of PT as a rookie. Could be a 3rd rd steal.

Steve Slaton - Looks like he could be a poor mans Reggie Bush without the prima donna part. Not in his league as a pass catcher at this point, but a speed guy who seems to like to get the edge. Look for big things on 3rd down this yr.

Xavier Adibi - By all accounts, quick agile and active. Per Kubiak has very good instincts. Seems to be a nickel/dime guy at the moment who will star on ST, but I expect him to push Greenwood hard by the end of the year.

Frank Okam - Per John McClain, having an excllent camp and looks like he is totally motivated and ready to create havoc. Again, if he keeps this up, he will push for PT early on and don't be suprised if he starts at some point. Could be another steal.

Dominque Barber - I expect him to go on the practice squad, but early reports have been positive and he looks like a player too. Just think there is too much depth at safety for him to break on the 53 man roster this yr.

Alex Brink - Still the one pick that's a total head scratcher, but might be grooming him as the #2 in the likely event of Sage's departure. He seems to have some tools, and we'll see if he develops.

If any of you guys that have been at camp have anything to add, let's hear it. This way all of our rooks are in one thread and a good place to read up on them in one place.

pittbull3
07-30-2008, 01:09 PM
I think what has made a world of difference, is not just the draft picks themselves, but also the coaching staff and the overall attitude of the team. The NFL has a quick learning curve. For most, if you don't grab the bull by the horns within the first couple of seasons, your career is over. A good example is David Carr. Every team thought the guy had what it took. But no leadership in the locker room, along with poor teaching and horrible coaching, never allowed this guy to progress. Hence, couple hundred sacks later and pocket shy, a shell of what could have been. But, if you come in, learn, get proper instruction, and have the proper environment to learn, you can takes leaps! That is how the good teams have stayed on top so long. Great veteran leadership and competent stability in the front office. Neither of which the Texans had either in tthe leagues existence. Now we are seeing older guys aid the younger, while at the same time, welcoming the challenge. We are seeing coaches hold players accountable on the field, not just to show up at the bank and cash a free agent check. Again. Kudos to Smith, Kubs, the remaining coaching staff, and the players buying into the system.....:tiphat:

b0ng
07-30-2008, 01:18 PM
All of the draft picks from the last 3 years have looked OUTSTANDING. Between Mario, Amobi, DeMeco, Daniels, Winston, Bennett, Studdard, and now with Molden looking outstanding, and Adibi and Brown both looking like they could push for a starters job, holy shit.

Whoever is doing the drafting needs to remain a Texan for the next decade.

TexansMVP
07-30-2008, 01:40 PM
Nice pittbull. I think often times the coaching staff is under looked, but these guys have made a world of difference and helped several of our players tap into their potential. Alex Gibbs and Ray Rhodes will definitely make some of our new rooks look great down the line.

beerlover
07-30-2008, 01:43 PM
And it appears that once again, we have had an outstanding draft.

Granted, we haven't even seen these guys in live game action, but all of the early indicators are looking good on every one of these guys. There is no talk of someone being a disapointment, or playing catch up, etc.

Here's a brief look on some of what I have seen/heard/read on each of these guys -

Duane Brown - early reports are that he appears light and nimble on his feet, with good quickness. Most importantly, he seems to be more than holding his own as a pass protector, which is job one. Might be a litle behind in the run blocking, but no reason to think he can't improve there. I don't know if he will start at Pitt, but expect him to be the starter around the quarter mark myself. We'll see.

Antwaun Molden - From multiple sources, appears to be having an exceptional camp. If he keeps it up, I could also see him pushing Reeves early in the season, and he will get plenty of PT as a rookie. Could be a 3rd rd steal.

Steve Slaton - Looks like he could be a poor mans Reggie Bush without the prima donna part. Not in his league as a pass catcher at this point, but a speed guy who seems to like to get the edge. Look for big things on 3rd down this yr.

Xavier Adibi - By all accounts, quick agile and active. Per Kubiak has very good instincts. Seems to be a nickel/dime guy at the moment who will star on ST, but I expect him to push Greenwood hard by the end of the year.

Frank Okam - Per John McClain, having an excllent camp and looks like he is totally motivated and ready to create havoc. Again, if he keeps this up, he will push for PT early on and don't be suprised if he starts at some point. Could be another steal.

Dominque Barber - I expect him to go on the practice squad, but early reports have been positive and he looks like a player too. Just think there is too much depth at safety for him to break on the 53 man roster this yr.

Alex Brink - Still the one pick that's a total head scratcher, but might be grooming him as the #2 in the likely event of Sage's departure. He seems to have some tools, and we'll see if he develops.

If any of you guys that have been at camp have anything to add, let's hear it. This way all of our rooks are in one thread and a good place to read up on them in one place.


nice write-up, rep your way :cool:

imagine the players Smith/Kubiak will add going forward, selecting in the 2nd rd.?

Spike
07-30-2008, 01:44 PM
I agree on all points. I think we see five of this year's draft picks make an impact on this team. I think the front office has done an excellent job of picking guys who (i) fit the system, (ii) fit the personality of the team and (iii) are good character.

I think another big reason of the success of these players is the willingness of the veterans on the roster to help rookies get caught up and adjust. One of the first thing we saw this new front office do is rid the team of some bad elements and replace them with solid veterans who would serve as an example to the younger players. We don't hear it mentioned much, but you have to believe that a lot of Bennet's success should be credited to Dunta...and we are seeing Dunta do the same thing with Molden. Look at Salaam and Brown. The same could be said for Sage helping Schaub get up to speed last year.

There is just a good feel about the players on this team. Guys doing what they can for the TEAM, notwithstanding the fact that they may be training the guy who will push them back on the depth chart. This sort of attitude becomes the fabric of a team and sets a tone for how this year's rookies will help along rookies to come.

nunusguy
07-30-2008, 01:50 PM
I think we've got a ways to go before we can even form a tentitive grade for our Draft. Obviously it's more about how Duane Brown turns out than any other player, especially since we didn' have a 2nd round pick again this year making the first round choice even more important. And all indications are he is athletic with potential, but still maybe not a reasonably good bet to be a starting NL LT anytime in the near furture.
And at first I would have agreed with you about Alex Brink being the most dubious pick, but now I think it's Dominque Barber. I dunno why we needed one more safety given the many we alread have on our roster, while on the other hand Kubiak does have to seriously begin contemplating the need for a backup QB for the starter when Schaub or Sage are no longer with the team ?
And so far, based upon what I've read, I gotta think that CB Mauden is looking like the best pick, given where he was taken, the relative importance of the CB position, and early assessments of his performance in the NFL.

TexanBacker93
07-30-2008, 02:00 PM
At some point the national talking heads should realize that maybe the people in charge down here know a little bit about the game. Until then I assume every draft pick of the Texans will be mocked.

Porky
07-30-2008, 02:02 PM
I think we've got a ways to go before we can even form a tentitive grade for our Draft. Obviously it's more about how Duane Brown turns out than any other player, especially since we didn' have a 2nd round pick again this year making the first round choice even more important. And all indications are he is athletic with potential, but still maybe not a reasonably good bet to be a starting NL LT anytime in the near furture.
And at first I would have agreed with you about Alex Brink being the most dubious pick, but now I think it's Dominque Barber. I dunno why we needed one more safety given the many we alread have on our roster, while on the other hand Kubiak does have to seriously begin contemplating the need for a backup QB for the starter when Schaub or Sage are no longer with the team ?
And so far, based upon what I've read, I gotta think that CB Mauden is looking like the best pick, given where he was taken, the relative importance of the CB position, and early assessments of his performance in the NFL.


Whaat do you consider the near future? I would bank on him being the starting LT by the bye week at worst, and possibly as soon as opening day, although I tend to think of that as a long shot.

I think you have a valid point on Barber/Brink. I wasn't wild about either selection at the time, I am simply reporting what I have read or heard about each. At this point, I am not assessing what we should have done with the pick, only what they have done so far in camp.

On Mouldon you seem to maybe contridict yourself a bit there. First you say we cannot even fathom a tentative grade, and then go on to say he looks like the best pick based on his early camp performance.

All in all, a good post. I tend to enjoy reading what you have to say.

nunusguy
07-30-2008, 02:41 PM
Whaat do you consider the near future? I would bank on him being the starting LT by the bye week at worst, and possibly as soon as opening day, although I tend to think of that as a long shot.

I think you have a valid point on Barber/Brink. I wasn't wild about either selection at the time, I am simply reporting what I have read or heard about each. At this point, I am not assessing what we should have done with the pick, only what they have done so far in camp.

On Mouldon you seem to maybe contridict yourself a bit there. First you say we cannot even fathom a tentative grade, and then go on to say he looks like the best pick based on his early camp performance.

All in all, a good post. I tend to enjoy reading what you have to say.
My impression (granted, that's anything but a real confidant prediction), is that Mouden is atleast as close to be a starting NFL CB as Brown is to being a starting NFL LT if not more so. Now we would expect that from a 3rd rounder, but on the other hand all but one of our seven number 1 picks up to now have started from Day 1, and I don't expect either one of these guys to start against the Steelers.

Polo
07-30-2008, 03:38 PM
-Okam won't start as long as TJ is healthy and on the roster.

-Brink and Barber were picked becasue of where the Texans had them ranked, and the fact that they were still available--the staff felt they were too good to pass up at that point. That's from little Shanny's mouth.

-I expect Brown to start from Day 1. If Mario truly is one of the top DE's in this league (some say he's THE BEST or atleast top 3) then you kinda gotta think about it in small bites. He's doing o.k. and showing flashes against Mario and we still have a lot of camp left + 4 Pre-season games. I expect him to get a lot better in that time and to become a lot more comfortable.

Ephriam is a vet, but this is a whole new scheme....Who's been getting the most work in this scheme ??? Brown. That would be bad on the Texans part having Brown get all these reps with the first unit while they are learning and becoming acclimated with this new scheme, only to turn around and start Salaam who hasn't practiced as much. He'd be out of synch with his teammates + he wouldn't have had as many reps (reps are VERY important in ZBS). If Salaam is to be the starter for the opening, look for a terrible pre-season from Brown because that's the only way Salaam uproots him.

-I think Molden has a legit shot at being named a starter by game 1

-JMO's

painekiller
07-30-2008, 03:45 PM
.
And at first I would have agreed with you about Alex Brink being the most dubious pick, but now I think it's Dominque Barber. I dunno why we needed one more safety given the many we alread have on our roster,

FYI At todays practice it appeared that Barber and Earl where working with the 2nd team. The Brandons where where further down the food chain.

barrett
07-30-2008, 04:16 PM
Ephriam is a vet, but this is a whole new scheme....Who's been getting the most work in this scheme ??? Brown. That would be bad on the Texans part having Brown get all these reps with the first unit while they are learning and becoming acclimated with this new scheme, only to turn around and start Salaam who hasn't practiced as much. He'd be out of synch with his teammates + he wouldn't have had as many reps (reps are VERY important in ZBS). If Salaam is to be the starter for the opening, look for a terrible pre-season from Brown because that's the only way Salaam uproots him.


although i agree with you on your other statements for the most part, this is a bit incorrect. this isn't a whole new scheme. Kubiak even said it today:

“We’ve been doing it. We came in here, and we were doing it and teaching it. The calls haven’t changed a lick. We brought the expert in here to make sure we’re doing it the right way. If anything, we’ve cut back but our players are familiar with it and getting more and more familiar with it every day. The thing we want to do with running the ball, we want to back off, get simpler, cut down on plays and get good at the one’s we’re going to run.”

however, i do agree with you that reps are very important in this scheme and Gibbs is all about perfecting the timing of it so the players don't have to think about it they can react quickly. he's even advised them to change up their technique from time to time to keep the defense guessing. but that comes with doing it over and over until it's second nature. i think it's unreasonable to think that Salaam doesn't know the system just because he's working with the 2's. The timing thing may be more of an issue but in the end I think it's moot because I believe they are trying to get Brown ready for September against the Pittsburgh Pennsylvanians.

But I just wanted to point out that it's not a new scheme. They're even still running some of Sherm's plays.

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I mispoke with the whole new scheme thing...

It's not actually a "whole new scheme", but there will be a huge difference in the way we block...

barrett
07-30-2008, 04:22 PM
I wish that I had last season to review once we get into games. I'd love to A/B the two and see how different it really will be.

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:26 PM
i think it's unreasonable to think that Salaam doesn't know the system just because he's working with the 2's. The timing thing may be more of an issue but in the end I think it's moot because I believe they are trying to get Brown ready for September against the Pittsburgh Pennsylvanians.


Salaam doesn't have to take one rep "to know the system"...He can learn the sytem by wathching and going over his play book...

Though it's not "a whole new scheme" the way that we block is going to drastically change with Gibbs on board...

If you look at Vonta Leach's comments regarding Taylor being moved to fullback he talks about how big of a difference it is for the FB while transistiong to the full fledged ZBS...He talks about how big of a difference it is from last year...It was even said the he probably won't have the new scheme down until the end of training camp...

I stand by my comments...Salaam being suddenly thrown into the starting line-up with limited repetitions in this Gibbs style system would leave us worse off than Brown, IMO.

barrett
07-30-2008, 04:32 PM
funny, I was just posting about Vonta's "new role" in another thread while you were posting this!

The Pencil Neck
07-30-2008, 04:33 PM
Yeah, I mispoke with the whole new scheme thing...

It's not actually a "whole new scheme", but there will be a huge difference in the way we block...

Also, remember that Salaam spent a few years in Denver. He's seen ALL of this before. He doesn't need the work.

If Brown doesn't come around before the season starts, Salaam will be ready to start.

But I have a feeling that Brown will be starting.

infantrycak
07-30-2008, 04:34 PM
I stand by my comments...Salaam being suddenly thrown into the starting line-up with limited repetitions in this Gibbs style system would leave us worse off than Brown, IMO.

Ephraim played two years in Denver with Gibbs as his coach. This is a refresher course for him.

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:39 PM
I wish that I had last season to review once we get into games. I'd love to A/B the two and see how different it really will be.

The biggest differnce we'll see is the way the linemen move and how quickly they get to the second level...

ZBS is a term that a lot of folks are confused by...

Last year we zone blocked a lot, but it wasn't the same kind of zoneblocking that Gibbs is going to bring....

We ran a lot of inside/power zone...with Gibbs on board I expect to see a lot more off tackle/outside zone...

While we still are going to technically be running zone blocking, the steps and angles that linemen take are going to drastically change...The timing is going to change...The way we block will change...The only thing that will stay the same is the "zone concept" which is basically letting defenders dictate who blocks them and how they are blocked...

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:42 PM
Ephraim played two years in Denver with Gibbs as his coach. This is a refresher course for him.

Forgot about that...good point...

Still don't see him starting though...

He's not a guy I'd consider good enough to take limited reps in these circumstances and then come in and be relied upon to be your starter...

barrett
07-30-2008, 04:44 PM
even though that's what he's done for the last two seasons. either way, I agree that the plan is for Brown to be ready to go by September.

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:46 PM
even though that's what he's done for the last two seasons.


His first season he was forced into starting becasue of an injury...He wasn't "expected" or being "relied on" to start...

Last season he didn't have limited reps in camp...

It's not what he's done the past two seasons...

cuppacoffee
07-30-2008, 04:49 PM
I agree on all points. I think we see five of this year's draft picks make an impact on this team. I think the front office has done an excellent job of picking guys who (i) fit the system, (ii) fit the personality of the team and (iii) are good character.

I think another big reason of the success of these players is the willingness of the veterans on the roster to help rookies get caught up and adjust. One of the first thing we saw this new front office do is rid the team of some bad elements and replace them with solid veterans who would serve as an example to the younger players. We don't hear it mentioned much, but you have to believe that a lot of Bennet's success should be credited to Dunta...and we are seeing Dunta do the same thing with Molden. Look at Salaam and Brown. The same could be said for Sage helping Schaub get up to speed last year.

There is just a good feel about the players on this team. Guys doing what they can for the TEAM, notwithstanding the fact that they may be training the guy who will push them back on the depth chart. This sort of attitude becomes the fabric of a team and sets a tone for how this year's rookies will help along rookies to come.


I realize that we have had a huge turnover in the roster since Smith and Kubiak got here.

I thought it was just a matter of upgrading talent.

Could you expound on who the "bad element" players were that we rid ourselves of, as I really can't think of any.

If you consider lack of talent to be the same as "bad element" then disregard.

Thanks.

:coffee:

Insideop
07-30-2008, 04:53 PM
FYI At todays practice it appeared that Barber and Earl where working with the 2nd team. The Brandons where where further down the food chain.

This (too many Safeties) is a good problem to have. Besides, the Brandons both have another year of eligibility on the PS and Barber should have 2 years. So, whoever they pick between the 3, the other 2 should be put on the PS, provided they make it through waivers. I've been hearing Earl has been having a good camp, so he should make the team with no problem. Not sure where Ferguson or Simmons stand as far as making the team, but there sure are going to be some tough cuts at the end of camp. JMHO!

barrett
07-30-2008, 04:57 PM
when are the first cuts anyway?

Polo
07-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Also, remember that Salaam spent a few years in Denver. He's seen ALL of this before. He doesn't need the work

Ehhh...I disagree with him not needing the work...

Salaam isn't a world beater to begin with...He's not good enough to spend the whole camp watching taking limited reps and then coming in and executing...

He spent a few years in Denver, but how many reps did he get then ?

Wasn't he a back-up ?

Back-ups tend to get limited reps wherever they are...

I just don't think that I'd be willing to throw Salaam in there over Brown. If the Texans thought Brown wouldn't be ready just yet I'd think that they'd split the reps a little more evenly...Bring Brown along slowly while getting Salaam reps to be ready...

They aren't doing that and really haven't shown any indication of reverting back to Salaam since the Brown was drafted...

HJam72
07-30-2008, 05:22 PM
I just hope the one who's playing best is the one who always starts. The best way for that to happen is for Brown to become the better of the two by opening day.

Rex King
07-30-2008, 05:25 PM
when are the first cuts anyway?

IIRC, August 26 down to 75, then 4 days later down to 53. I still don't understand the logic behind that.

Just to play devil's advocaat on the Barber pick, they had Demps, CC, and Curome Cox as the only healthy guys with any significant experience at the position until Ferguson was signed. Earl was coming off a serious injury, Simmons as well and thus not tendered. Hutchins was gone and They didn't really know what they had in Mitchell and Harrison. I think it would be a bit different if either of the Brandons had played significant time and looked good. In any case, Demps and Ferguson (if he makes the roster) are short-term answers, and CC will be a UFA next year. If Barber can take over, they have the luxury of letting him walk or re-signing him for less money.

76Texan
07-30-2008, 05:31 PM
The biggest differnce we'll see is the way the linemen move and how quickly they get to the second level...

ZBS is a term that a lot of folks are confused by...

Last year we zone blocked a lot, but it wasn't the same kind of zoneblocking that Gibbs is going to bring....

We ran a lot of inside/power zone...with Gibbs on board I expect to see a lot more off tackle/outside zone...

While we still are going to technically be running zone blocking, the steps and angles that linemen take are going to drastically change...The timing is going to change...The way we block will change...The only thing that will stay the same is the "zone concept" which is basically letting defenders dictate who blocks them and how they are blocked...I don't think it's necessarily because of Gibbs that we will run more outside zone plays.

We'll do it because we have RBs that can get to the corner faster than we did last year. And also because we have more O-linemen who can get o the next level.

Look at the Broncos in 05 when they have the big guys Anderson and Dayne (plus Tatum Bell), they only ran to the edge 15% of the time.

We ran 19% last year, the Broncos 29% with the addition of Selvin Young.

Polo
07-30-2008, 05:38 PM
We'll do it because we have RBs that can get to the corner faster than we did last year. And also because we have more O-linemen who can get o the next level.

Look at the Broncos in 05 when they have the big guys Anderson and Dayne (plus Tatum Bell), they only ran to the edge 15% of the time.


Well...The scheme isn't really designed for bruiser backs...

It's designed for quickness...


The Gibbs scheme is designed for guys like Portis, Warrick Dunn, TD, and all the other quicker more explosive backs...

The Bronco's probably adjusted their runs due to the type of backs they had...the scheme is still designed to be more off tackle, stretch oriented...

Besides that...You can't look at one year to the next for one team...Of course the kind of backs you have from year to year will determine how and what kind of runs you do...compare Denver to another team...not itself...

The Pencil Neck
07-30-2008, 05:41 PM
Ehhh...I disagree with him not needing the work...

Salaam isn't a world beater to begin with...He's not good enough to spend the whole camp watching taking limited reps and then coming in and executing...

He spent a few years in Denver, but how many reps did he get then ?

Wasn't he a back-up ?


No. He played 2 seasons in Denver. The first season, he started all 16 games. His second season, he started 14. He was an LT in Denver except for 1 game.

Prior to that, he was a starter at RT for several years with the Falcons including his rookie year when he started 19 games... that was the year they went to the Super Bowl.

The only year he hasn't started at least 10 games was his 2nd year with the Jags where he started 2, played in 5, and was deactivated for most of the rest of the year.

76Texan
07-30-2008, 05:47 PM
No. He played 2 seasons in Denver. The first season, he started all 16 games. His second season, he started 14. He was an LT in Denver except for 1 game.

Prior to that, he was a starter at RT for several years with the Falcons including his rookie year when he started 19 games... that was the year they went to the Super Bowl.

The only year he hasn't started at least 10 games was his 2nd year with the Jags where he started 2, played in 5, and was deactivated for most of the rest of the year.

Also, Salaam been looking pretty good this camp.
Even Kubiak said so, which is good.
I'd like for Brown to start as soon as possible, but if he's not ready by the season opener, I'm sure Salaam will be ready to go.

Polo
07-30-2008, 05:50 PM
No. He played 2 seasons in Denver. The first season, he started all 16 games. His second season, he started 14. He was an LT in Denver except for 1 game.

Prior to that, he was a starter at RT for several years with the Falcons including his rookie year when he started 19 games... that was the year they went to the Super Bowl.

The only year he hasn't started at least 10 games was his 2nd year with the Jags where he started 2, played in 5, and was deactivated for most of the rest of the year.

Wow..Salaam has more credentials than I thought he had...

I was wrong about that part...

Still don't think he'll start game one though for various other reasons...

TexansFanatic
07-30-2008, 06:05 PM
This team had so many questionable picks those first few years. Now, suddenly, every pick at least makes the team, and most of them start. Amazing.

False Start
07-30-2008, 06:17 PM
Excellent post Porky !! I am so hyped for this season . I'm starting to get that feeling I used to when the Oilers were good and camp started up . This team has finally held onto enough players to where you can actually look forward to seeing them play every season instead of almost a different group every year . Rick Smith and Gary Scooby-Snack(thats what my 5 year old calls him :heh:) are top notch . :fans:

NBT
07-30-2008, 06:42 PM
Per Polo "-Okam won't start as long as TJ is healthy and on the roster."

Don't know what you are basing your information on, but TJ hasn't exactly overwhelmed with his play on the nose. Okam is (1) overweight, and (2) has the reputation of underachieving in his own right, but if I am correct in my suspicions, they will egg each other on, and make both of them better players. They are both capable of taking over a defense if the mood strikes them. I hope it does, and often this season. Should be fun to watch.

painekiller
07-30-2008, 07:06 PM
Per Polo "-Okam won't start as long as TJ is healthy and on the roster."

Don't know what you are basing your information on, but TJ hasn't exactly overwhelmed with his play on the nose. Okam is (1) overweight, and (2) has the reputation of underachieving in his own right, but if I am correct in my suspicions, they will egg each other on, and make both of them better players. They are both capable of taking over a defense if the mood strikes them. I hope it does, and often this season. Should be fun to watch.

TJ has had a solid camp, Okam has had some wow moments but he has had some disappear time.

Number19
07-30-2008, 09:22 PM
-Okam won't start as long as TJ is healthy and on the roster...The following is probably too far out in left field, certainly for this year. But if TJ continues to improve over last year's performance and rounds into a player worth his draft status, and if Okam proves to be the surprise pick of this year's draft - earning a starting assignment - then one possibility would be to move Okoye outside opposite Mario.

A good example of of this type of thinking is San Francisco, who has moved Sopoaga - a classic nose tackle - outside. They think he has the quickness and feet to play out on the edge.

I can see a defensive line, at some point, consisting of Mario and Okoye on the outside and with TJ and Okam in the middle. With Mario and Okoye pressuring from the outside, Mario getting +15 sacks and Okoye getting +10 sacks, and Okam collapsing the middle, getting 4, 5, 6 sacks, things might open up for TJ so he too could get half a dozen sacks.

This could prove to be a dominant pass rush and solid against the run.

painekiller
07-31-2008, 12:04 AM
Or you can have a solid rotation like most very good teams. If the top 3 tackles are all starter quality, then allowing them to stay fresh makes the team better late in games, and then nagging injuries are usually avoided.

I do not see Okoye on the outside in the NFL. He is quick for a DT, but not a 4-3 DE, now place him in a 3-4 and he might be like young Gary Walker...

Think about if we where to go into a 3-4, TJ and Okoye at DE, Okam at NT, and Mario and Colvin at OLB. That leaves Ryans in the middle with Greenwood or Diles. Maybe we are not to far off from ..... no that not going to happen.:gun:

J-Russ
07-31-2008, 12:15 AM
The following is probably too far out in left field, certainly for this year. But if TJ continues to improve over last year's performance and rounds into a player worth his draft status, and if Okam proves to be the surprise pick of this year's draft - earning a starting assignment - then one possibility would be to move Okoye outside opposite Mario.

A good example of of this type of thinking is San Francisco, who has moved Sopoaga - a classic nose tackle - outside. They think he has the quickness and feet to play out on the edge.

I can see a defensive line, at some point, consisting of Mario and Okoye on the outside and with TJ and Okam in the middle. With Mario and Okoye pressuring from the outside, Mario getting +15 sacks and Okoye getting +10 sacks, and Okam collapsing the middle, getting 4, 5, 6 sacks, things might open up for TJ so he too could get half a dozen sacks.

This could prove to be a dominant pass rush and solid against the run.

wow. Don't fix whats not broken.... Okoye is already a stud at DT, a position he played since high school. It likes the Winston debate, why move him to LT when we already used two years to teach him how to play RT. Plus I don't think Okoye could play DE, like the poster said above me, he might be quick for a DT, but could probably get neutralized by a starting NFL LT.

Goldensilence
07-31-2008, 02:01 AM
wow. Don't fix whats not broken.... Okoye is already a stud at DT, a position he played since high school. It likes the Winston debate, why move him to LT when we already used two years to teach him how to play RT. Plus I don't think Okoye could play DE, like the poster said above me, he might be quick for a DT, but could probably get neutralized by a starting NFL LT.

Perhaps you haven't been around long enough to see the move Dunta to FS threads.

Porky Excellent post. The only thing I keep coming back to is who would've been an overwhelmingly better pick in the 6th and 7th rounds respectively? It's been said before So i am piggy backing but from this draft forward i expect out 6th and seventh round picks aren't going to be dredging for starters or even immediate backups. I think between FA and the current depth this team is starting to accrue look for more projects and just guys who are football players.

Far as Alex Brink goes I have confidence in Kubiak's coaching abilities. If he's turned Jake Plummer and Brian Griese into acceptable starters I am sure he can have Alex Brink prepared enough to be a good backup by the time Sage Leaves or is traded.

steelbtexan
07-31-2008, 02:41 AM
I realize that we have had a huge turnover in the roster since Smith and Kubiak got here.

I thought it was just a matter of upgrading talent.

Could you expound on who the "bad element" players were that we rid ourselves of, as I really can't think of any.

If you consider lack of talent to be the same as "bad element" then disregard.

Thanks.

:coffee:

David Carr, Robaire Smith, Gary Walker, Jabar Gaffney, P-Buc, & Todd Wade just to a few. They were either lockerroom cancers (Carr, P-Buc, Smith) or lacked talent (Gaffney, Walker).

aj.
07-31-2008, 08:19 AM
I realize that we have had a huge turnover in the roster since Smith and Kubiak got here.

Only 12 guys left from the '06 team. (correction edit: 2002-05 era)

-----

As far as an earlier comment on Duane Brown being light and nimble, I've only been to three practices but those aren't two of the words that come to mind when I was watching him. Yes, he's shown some flashes of the advertised athleticism and you can see he has the feets and potential, but overall I see a guy that's trying to get into NFL shape, and trying to learn how to be an NFL player (as expected). When I first saw Duane last week, surprisingly bulky were the words that flashed through my head. He'll get there. Hopefully.

HJam72
07-31-2008, 08:22 AM
Speaking of Okoye, has he grown any since last year? I mean, he's actually young enough to still be growing (maybe), so I'm just wondering.

Porky
07-31-2008, 08:33 AM
Only 12 guys left from the '06 team.

-----

As far as an earlier comment on Duane Brown being light and nimble, I've only been to three practices but those aren't two of the words that come to mind when I was watching him. Yes, he's shown some flashes of the advertised athleticism and you can see he has the feets and potential, but overall I see a guy that's trying to get into NFL shape, and trying to learn how to be an NFL player (as expected). When I first saw Duane last week, surprisingly bulky were the words that flashed through my head. He'll get there. Hopefully.

Thanks for the insite. I have no independent knowledge as I have not seen any of them at this point. My observations were simply made by culling thru some stuff I had read or seen observers say. I do know it was said he needs to lose 10-15 lbs, so your reports make sense. But, I have also seen him described as quick, nimble and agile with good feet this camp, hence my description. I stand corrected if that is not accurate.

76Texan
07-31-2008, 08:55 AM
This (too many Safeties) is a good problem to have. Besides, the Brandons both have another year of eligibility on the PS and Barber should have 2 years. So, whoever they pick between the 3, the other 2 should be put on the PS, provided they make it through waivers. I've been hearing Earl has been having a good camp, so he should make the team with no problem. Not sure where Ferguson or Simmons stand as far as making the team, but there sure are going to be some tough cuts at the end of camp. JMHO!

I wish we still have Jason Simmons, but I believe the Texans let him go. His injury must have been serious.

Ferguson, IMO, is just a vet they want to bring in just in case... His play last year in Denver showed that he had lost a step. (I was reviewing some games to check out Chris Myers.) If people were complaining about Earl and CC Brown, they should forget about Ferguson.

76Texan
07-31-2008, 08:59 AM
Or you can have a solid rotation like most very good teams. If the top 3 tackles are all starter quality, then allowing them to stay fresh makes the team better late in games, and then nagging injuries are usually avoided.

I do not see Okoye on the outside in the NFL. He is quick for a DT, but not a 4-3 DE, now place him in a 3-4 and he might be like young Gary Walker...

Think about if we where to go into a 3-4, TJ and Okoye at DE, Okam at NT, and Mario and Colvin at OLB. That leaves Ryans in the middle with Greenwood or Diles. Maybe we are not to far off from ..... no that not going to happen.:gun:
That's an entertaining idea!:d:

76Texan
07-31-2008, 09:18 AM
Thanks for the insite. I have no independent knowledge as I have not seen any of them at this point. My observations were simply made by culling thru some stuff I had read or seen observers say. I do know it was said he needs to lose 10-15 lbs, so your reports make sense. But, I have also seen him described as quick, nimble and agile with good feet this camp, hence my description. I stand corrected if that is not accurate.
Brown reported to TC overweighed (327 lbs, I think). He was somewhere around 310 at VTech.

I think AJ got the number 12 from Justice, and that normally won't do.
http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
David Anderson
CC Brown
Chris Brown
Mark Bruener
Tim Bullman *
Earl Cochran *
Jameel Cook
O.D.
Earl
Faggins
Greenwood
AJ
TJ
Kalu
Leach
Maddox
Pittman
Pitts
Dunta
Rosenfels
Demeco
Salaam
Taylor *
Walter
Weary
Weaver
White *
Harry Williams *
Mario
Winston

I could be wrong, but there certainly remains more than 12.

TexanBacker93
07-31-2008, 09:47 AM
IIRC, August 26 down to 75, then 4 days later down to 53. I still don't understand the logic behind that.


The first cut is after the Dallas preseason game and then the 2nd cut is after the Tampa game. I'm not saying there is logic in that. I'd think they'd either even out the cuts or just cut everyone after the last preseason game. I'd think most of the coaches pretty much know the guys that are going to be cut. At least it gives them more players in that last game to use so they can fully rest the starters.

The late cuts makes it tough planning fantasy drafts. How do I know if I should draft David Carr if he might not even make the Giants roster? Which backup kicker do I take?

DBCooper
07-31-2008, 10:08 AM
Antwaun Molden - From multiple sources, appears to be having an exceptional camp. If he keeps it up, I could also see him pushing Reeves early in the season, and he will get plenty of PT as a rookie. Could be a 3rd rd steal.


I hope you're right. With our secondary problems the last couple of years and Dunta being out, he could really help this football team if he can play at a high level.

Opportunity knocking, Antaun!

infantrycak
07-31-2008, 10:23 AM
I could be wrong, but there certainly remains more than 12.

I suspect aj meant from the 2005 team, i.e. since Kubiak took over.

That list is:
CC Brown
Kris Brown
Mark Bruener
Glenn Earl
Demarcus Faggins
Morlon Greenwood
Andre Johnson
Travis Johnson
Bryan Pittman
Chester Pitts
Dunta Robinson
Fred Weary

Specnatz
07-31-2008, 10:45 AM
David Carr, Robaire Smith, Gary Walker, Jabar Gaffney, P-Buc, & Todd Wade just to a few. They were either lockerroom cancers (Carr, P-Buc, Smith) or lacked talent (Gaffney, Walker).

Locker room cancer? I do not count poor performance on the field as cancer's in the locker room.

P-buc ... ok I will say his attitude sucked so yeah, but I have never heard anything R Smith being a sorle disruptive locker room guy so please tell me what he did to get that distinction.

Gaffney lacked talent? Seems the Patriots would disagree with you 100% They like him and he is in their rotation at WR, so theregoes that myth.

Walker was not a bad player but he was no stud, if played better when there was talent around him there was no talent on the DL when he was here plus the fact that he was injured his 2nd year and his 4th year with us and then he was out of the leage. I thought he retired cause of injuries but I could be wrong.

ChampionTexan
07-31-2008, 11:10 AM
Locker room cancer? I do not count poor performance on the field as cancer's in the locker room.

P-buc ... ok I will say his attitude sucked so yeah, but I have never heard anything R Smith being a sorle disruptive locker room guy so please tell me what he did to get that distinction.

Gaffney lacked talent? Seems the Patriots would disagree with you 100% They like him and he is in their rotation at WR, so theregoes that myth.

Walker was not a bad player but he was no stud, if played better when there was talent around him there was no talent on the DL when he was here plus the fact that he was injured his 2nd year and his 4th year with us and then he was out of the leage. I thought he retired cause of injuries but I could be wrong.

Walker was a Pro-Bowl player his first year with the Texans, and was waived after the '05 season because of injuries.

76Texan
07-31-2008, 11:21 AM
I suspect aj meant from the 2005 team, i.e. since Kubiak took over.

That list is:
CC Brown
Kris Brown
Mark Bruener
Glenn Earl
Demarcus Faggins
Morlon Greenwood
Andre Johnson
Travis Johnson
Bryan Pittman
Chester Pitts
Dunta Robinson
Fred Weary
That is true.
But Rick Smith inherited more than those players.

Nowadays, players move around quite a bit.
Especially when you have a new coach.

Sometimes they break up a team to rebuild, etc.

You look at Crennel in Cleveland, for example.
He came in a year befor Kubiak got the job here.
And the Browns only have 14 guys reamined from the 05 team (and that with Crennel having one more year than Kubiak and with Savage as the GM who hired Romeo.)

And that after the Browns had quite a big turnover just a couple years before.

painekiller
07-31-2008, 11:59 AM
Thanks for the insite. I have no independent knowledge as I have not seen any of them at this point. My observations were simply made by culling thru some stuff I had read or seen observers say. I do know it was said he needs to lose 10-15 lbs, so your reports make sense. But, I have also seen him described as quick, nimble and agile with good feet this camp, hence my description. I stand corrected if that is not accurate.

Not that it is inaccurate it just has been embellished by some of the posters. He has the feet to be a tackle, but as aj said, no one is looking at him and calling him twinkle toes.

painekiller
07-31-2008, 12:18 PM
Locker room cancer? I do not count poor performance on the field as cancer's in the locker room.

P-buc ... ok I will say his attitude sucked so yeah, but I have never heard anything R Smith being a sorle disruptive locker room guy so please tell me what he did to get that distinction.



I do not have my source anymore and I do not feel like digging it up. But I remember there being talk about Smith being an issue in the locker room, he was not a hard worker and he was not dedicated to being in Kubiak type shape. Gary Walker at the stage in his career he was released had also become that way.

They would just do the minimum to get by, and if you watch the players now, that does not fly with Kubiak. He does not stand for dogging it. Even his big guys have to be able to handle the conditioning, NFL level conditioning.

nunusguy
07-31-2008, 01:07 PM
but overall I see a guy that's trying to get into NFL shape, and trying to learn how to be an NFL player (as expected). When I first saw Duane last week, surprisingly bulky were the words that flashed through my head. He'll get there. Hopefully.

In other words a "chunky project", which is my impression of the guy. I've heard a few optimists go so far as to claim he will be a Day One starter, but again that sounds wildly optimistic to the point of not being very realistic.
And I think its realy kinda worrisome that Brown does come in overweight and out of shape. Doesn't sound like the kind of high-motor guy you'd want and expect to come in to set the league on fire and all of that.

aj.
07-31-2008, 01:10 PM
I think AJ got the number 12 from Justice, and that normally won't do.
.


Actually I got the number 12 from the Texans training camp media release dated 7-22-06.

I meant to say the 2005 team - Capers' last team - the one before Kubiak took over.

More clearly stated, there are only 12 players left from the 2002-05 Dark Era. It was early this morning when I posted - give me a break - and I'll let the Justice comment slide ... this time.


2002 G/T Chester Pitts (2-b) PK Kris Brown (RFA-PIT) G Fred Weary (3-a) CB DeMarcus Faggins (6-a)

2003 WR Andre Johnson (1) LS Bryan Pittman (FA)

2004 CB Dunta Robinson (1-a) TE Mark Bruener (UFA-PIT)
7-9 SS Glenn Earl (4)

2005 DT Travis Johnson (1) LB Morlon Greenwood (UFA-MIA)
SS C.C. Brown (6)

Thanks for the insite. I have no independent knowledge as I have not seen any of them at this point. My observations were simply made by culling thru some stuff I had read or seen observers say. I do know it was said he needs to lose 10-15 lbs, so your reports make sense. But, I have also seen him described as quick, nimble and agile with good feet this camp, hence my description. I stand corrected if that is not accurate.

People see different things at different times. Snapshots in time. I would expect varying opinions and observations, not just on Brown but on most everything, so because one person said it and holds that opinion doesn't make it right, wrong or otherwise - it just adds to the data point bucket.

J-Russ
07-31-2008, 01:14 PM
Perhaps you haven't been around long enough to see the move Dunta to FS threads.

How is that the same? Dunta can become a great FS, Okoye can become an average DE. He can make a smooth transition over to FS, Okoye on the otherhand....

Beside it isn't like Dunta is a stud a CB, wasn't the complaint that he wasn't a cover corner? That he might be better suited for FS, where he can roam more freely?

76Texan
07-31-2008, 01:52 PM
Actually I got the number 12 from the Texans training camp media release dated 7-22-06.

I meant to say the 2005 team - Capers' last team - the one before Kubiak took over.

More clearly stated, there are only 12 players left from the 2002-05 Dark Era. It was early this morning when I posted - give me a break - and I'll let the Justice comment slide ... this time.


2002 G/T Chester Pitts (2-b) PK Kris Brown (RFA-PIT) G Fred Weary (3-a) CB DeMarcus Faggins (6-a)

2003 WR Andre Johnson (1) LS Bryan Pittman (FA)

2004 CB Dunta Robinson (1-a) TE Mark Bruener (UFA-PIT)
7-9 SS Glenn Earl (4)

2005 DT Travis Johnson (1) LB Morlon Greenwood (UFA-MIA)
SS C.C. Brown (6)



People see different things at different times. Snapshots in time. I would expect varying opinions and observations, not just on Brown but on most everything, so because one person said it and holds that opinion doesn't make it right, wrong or otherwise - it just adds to the data point bucket.
You know how we all love Justice! http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Goldensilence
07-31-2008, 02:03 PM
How is that the same? Dunta can become a great FS, Okoye can become an average DE. He can make a smooth transition over to FS, Okoye on the otherhand....

Beside it isn't like Dunta is a stud a CB, wasn't the complaint that he wasn't a cover corner? That he might be better suited for FS, where he can roam more freely?

Yep same thing IMO. Do you really want an 180lb FS in the backfield? How many CBs really make that transition all that smoothy? Maybe you missed the Marcus Coleman experiment as well. I'm also not sure how much Dunta would be able to add to his frame honestly.

I think we get caught up in name tags like "Franchise" when added to a position. Is he one of the mythical "franchise" CBs? I don't think there are many you can really put in that category so probably not. IS he a solid all around corner who excels more in run support? Yeah but to me long as you are not getting routinely abused outside that's what most teams want or have.

I just don't think this staff covets that rangy FS that a lot of us would like to see in the backfield.

Rex King
07-31-2008, 05:18 PM
The late cuts makes it tough planning fantasy drafts. How do I know if I should draft David Carr if he might not even make the Giants roster?

Projected Statline: 1-8, 12 yrd, 2 fumbles, 3 ints
:whip:

J-Russ
07-31-2008, 06:44 PM
Yep same thing IMO. Do you really want an 180lb FS in the backfield? How many CBs really make that transition all that smoothy? Maybe you missed the Marcus Coleman experiment as well. I'm also not sure how much Dunta would be able to add to his frame honestly.

I really hope you weren't trying to compare Coleman to Dunta. I didn't really watch football all that much back in 04-05 and was still learning the game in 05-06, but I could tell that Coleman was a soft player. P-Burnt barely edged him as the softest player in the secondary.

Dunta already proved that he plays much bigger then his weight indicates, and he can lay a hit like a SS. He played the safety position before in college and probably started off playing it in HS too, so yea I doubt there will be a big learning curve there.

Number19
07-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Here's a link to a column by AP sports writer Kristie Rieken, on Frank Okam:

http://www.statesman.com/horns/content/sports/stories/other/07/31/0731texans.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=54

The big fella, by reports, isn't overweight. He's about 337, maybe less by now. "...he's a big man...he's pretty well-conditioned for as big of a person he is..." - Kubiak.

It appears he wants to play at about 330 - he should easily reach that by end of training camp.

Regarding his seeming let-down his senior season, my understanding is that the Horns changed their defensive scheme and Okam's role was not to rush or pressure the QB, but rather was to tie up blockers. People who just look at statistics and see diminished numbers do not often look at the over-all picture. Coming out of HS, Frank was a top prospect and with the right scheme, coaching and motivation, could regain this higher level of play. Kubiak is expecting this, saying, "...there's another level for Frank...".

TJ had a...not spectacular...but solid season last year. He's only starting his fourth season and appears to just now be rounding into the kind of player his draft status would indicate. It is not unreasonable to expect much of the kind of improvement this season as usually happens with a player's second season. I believe he's finally injury free and in good shape. Does anyone have any camp information?

Number19
07-31-2008, 09:03 PM
Here's another good link I just found :

http://www.battleredblog.com/2008/5/16/510140/frank-okam-setting-the-rec

kravix
08-01-2008, 10:56 AM
Here's a link to a column by AP sports writer Kristie Rieken, on Frank Okam:

http://www.statesman.com/horns/content/sports/stories/other/07/31/0731texans.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=54

The big fella, by reports, isn't overweight. He's about 337, maybe less by now. "...he's a big man...he's pretty well-conditioned for as big of a person he is..." - Kubiak.

It appears he wants to play at about 330 - he should easily reach that by end of training camp.

Regarding his seeming let-down his senior season, my understanding is that the Horns changed their defensive scheme and Okam's role was not to rush or pressure the QB, but rather was to tie up blockers. People who just look at statistics and see diminished numbers do not often look at the over-all picture. Coming out of HS, Frank was a top prospect and with the right scheme, coaching and motivation, could regain this higher level of play. Kubiak is expecting this, saying, "...there's another level for Frank...".

TJ had a...not spectacular...but solid season last year. He's only starting his fourth season and appears to just now be rounding into the kind of player his draft status would indicate. It is not unreasonable to expect much of the kind of improvement this season as usually happens with a player's second season. I believe he's finally injury free and in good shape. Does anyone have any camp information?

I could have sworn that Okam had better stats his Senior year than all the other years.

I agree with you on TJ. Last year he played better than he ever has. I think that things are clicking for him now and he seems to come out of his shell more. Here's to hoping that he makes a huge leap this year and says "I might be a later starter, but I do have Roud 1 talent."

Number19
08-01-2008, 11:25 AM
I could have sworn that Okam had better stats his Senior year than all the other years...He did. See the second link. I've been basing my assessment from a news analysis I read several months ago, but I could have the timing of this defensive change by the Horns inaccurate. But the second link makes a good case that his collegiate career was as good as those players taken ahead of him. It seems that coming out of HS he was such an outstanding talent that expectations were way up there and it was these expectations that he didn't achieve. Regardless, it seems Kubiak does think there is a higher level for him if he only applies himself.

Doggone it- I'm an optimist - and I sure would like to see this happen. We have the pieces in place for a truly dominating DL.