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Joe Texan
12-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Why do we draft Gunslinging Quarter backs when all we can do is dump it off to DD or audible to DD. For a team to get lucky enough to get AJ is a miracle alone. But if you have him why can't you throw it to him at least once downfeild during a game. It just seems to me that we draft these QB's with records for passing But Dom continues to preach the Run and dump pass and punt. I keep hearing about there will be some changes but it is always the same ole same ole. :listening

cuppacoffee
12-16-2004, 11:20 AM
Why do we draft Gunslinging Quarter backs when all we can do is dump it off to DD or audible to DD. For a team to get lucky enough to get AJ is a miracle alone. But if you have him why can't you throw it to him at least once downfeild during a game. It just seems to me that we draft these QB's with records for passing But Dom continues to preach the Run and dump pass and punt. I keep hearing about there will be some changes but it is always the same ole same ole. :listening

Because he is Dom Capers and that is what he does. :D

cac :coffee:

SESupergenius
12-16-2004, 11:27 AM
Because you are an ***** and will not give them time to progress. Didn't you watch the gunslinger throw an int on the 1st play a couple of times this year? Nice

Porky
12-16-2004, 11:30 AM
Asking Dom Capers to run a wide open offense is like asking Ricky Williams to run the DEA. That's one of my problems with him. He wants to run a smash mouth Pittsburgh style offense using a offense whose pieces more closely resemble the Vikings, at least in style if not substance. Fitting a round peg into a square hole often causes coaches their jobs.

Texan Gal 312
12-16-2004, 11:38 AM
Because DC does not have TIME to throw it downfield. For example (Somebody can correct me if I am wrong on this) the 3rd and 2 play in the Indy game was designed to go deep to Andre in the middle of the field. I believe he was in the slot on the play. Two outside receivers ran go routes to attract the safeties and Andre went up the middle of the field...

3 receivers, max protect, but alas...

Carr can't pass from @***.


And of course the negative naysayer types with the 20 /20 hindsite want to know why he didn't run the ball but it appeared as if they were going for the big play. I can only imagine what would have been said had we run the ball and not made it

Marcus
12-16-2004, 11:39 AM
(sigh) :loser

Why don't some of you geniuses recognize the fact that until the offensive line starts doing their job, heaving the ball downfield into double coverage is just a wasted play?

dalemurphy
12-16-2004, 11:40 AM
Asking Dom Capers to run a wide open offense is like asking Ricky Williams to run the DEA. That's one of my problems with him. He wants to run a smash mouth Pittsburgh style offense using a offense whose pieces more closely resemble the Vikings, at least in style if not substance. Fitting a round peg into a square hole often causes coaches their jobs.

Until the offensive line gives the WRs time to press the safeties in the Cover 2 defenses or is able to pick up blitzes, Carr will have to dump the ball down much of the time. At least sticking with the run keeps Carr safe, opens up the possibility of play action and an 8th defender in the box.

There are two coaching issues on this team:

1. OL coach. There's a lot of money and draft picks there and not much to show for it right now.

2. Chris Palmer- not because of his run-pass ratio, etc.. that receives all the complaints on this board... But, because his gameplanning seems very weak. For instance, I saw one chip or double team on Dwight Freeney in two complete games against Indianapolis. That's ridiculous!! If we had a healthy Boselli at LT, I'd still incorporate more than that.

TexansTrueFan
12-16-2004, 11:57 AM
yes he did, but the o-line dont provide consistent protection for carr, and by that happening carr gets happy feet and dont know if the whole defense will be on his A$S or if he will have time to throw. But he needs more than 1.5 sec to make a deep throw and after that he is usually laying on his back !

Porky
12-16-2004, 12:40 PM
Until the offensive line gives the WRs time to press the safeties in the Cover 2 defenses or is able to pick up blitzes, Carr will have to dump the ball down much of the time. At least sticking with the run keeps Carr safe, opens up the possibility of play action and an 8th defender in the box.

There are two coaching issues on this team:

1. OL coach. There's a lot of money and draft picks there and not much to show for it right now.

2. Chris Palmer- not because of his run-pass ratio, etc.. that receives all the complaints on this board... But, because his gameplanning seems very weak. For instance, I saw one chip or double team on Dwight Freeney in two complete games against Indianapolis. That's ridiculous!! If we had a healthy Boselli at LT, I'd still incorporate more than that.


I tend to agree on both points. However, my point is that even if every spot on the line had an All-pro, he would run, or want to run a smash mouth, run first offense. That's his nature. Whether we like it or not, this oline, is anything but smash mouth. They are not a physical group at all, relying more on technique and brains. Not of those guys has a nasty streak. How many times has one of the olineman gone and just pancaked someone. All I am saying is that we need an offense suited to the personell. That means a finesse offense, using the short to intermediate passing game as the "ball control" offense, and chucking it down the field when Carr does have time - and as much as we malign the oline, their are times when he has the time, and he throws underneath to DD. AJ is the best player on this team. We need to maximaze his abilities, and dictate to the defense once in a while. This "taking what they give us approach" is good for about 14 points a game.

rhc564
12-16-2004, 02:04 PM
Because he is Dom Capers and that is what he does. :D

cac :coffee:

Cupp you got to look at the bright side on this thinking because we are
in a win/win situation. First, if the Texans all of a sudden start winning
next year, that's great!!! Thats what we want...but if they don't win,
this board is going to light up with all those 'cup half/fullers' making our
kind of preminition posts look like nursery rhymes--sit back, enjoy the
games and smile..it's goona be sweet! :heh:

Texas_Heat
12-16-2004, 02:28 PM
(sigh) :loser

Why don't some of you geniuses recognize the fact that until the offensive line starts doing their job, heaving the ball downfield into double coverage is just a wasted play?



Thatís right itís always better to run the ball for 2 yard gains and let the other teams dictate how the game will be played.

El Tejano
12-16-2004, 02:38 PM
Until we can learn how to protect against a four man rush, you won't see very many big plays like that running or passing.

rhc564
12-16-2004, 02:47 PM
(sigh) :loser

Why don't some of you geniuses recognize the fact that until the offensive line starts doing their job, heaving the ball downfield into double coverage is just a wasted play?

...please advise (1) what has to be done from a player stand point and
(2) a coaching standpoint for this 'UNTIL' to be achieved so that we may
all enjoy the fruits of a successful OL and -thus- a winning team...and,
as a bonus, can you give us a time frame? :BananaWav

cuppacoffee
12-16-2004, 03:04 PM
Cupp you got to look at the bright side on this thinking because we are
in a win/win situation. First, if the Texans all of a sudden start winning
next year, that's great!!! Thats what we want...but if they don't win,
this board is going to light up with all those 'cup half/fullers' making our
kind of preminition posts look like nursery rhymes--sit back, enjoy the
games and smile..it's goona be sweet! :heh:

RHC I agree with your thinking.
My reply to Joe Texan was just a takeoff of his signature:

I am Joe Texan
Thats what I do

Just having fun. :banana:

cac :coffee:

Marcus
12-16-2004, 04:07 PM
...please advise (1) what has to be done from a player stand point and (2) a coaching standpoint for this 'UNTIL' to be achieved so that we may all enjoy the fruits of a successful OL and -thus- a winning team...
El Tejano said it best.
Until we can learn how to protect against a four man rush, you won't see very many big plays like that running or passing.

This is not a problem that can be quick-fixed by firing someone. There is not quick solution. It's not a playcalling problem. It's not a coaching problem. It is at best, a lack of experience problem. At worst, it's lack of talent problem. Now, that is something you don't want to hear, and you don't want to accept. Because if you did, then you'd have to accept the fact that this problem cannot be solved overnight. Seth Wand needs more experience, and a LOT more time in the weight room before we can even tell if he's the man at LT. We need a new center . . . period. And we need a new right guard . . . period. Free agency has proven NOT to be the solution. Not to me at least. So that means the draft. And then after we draft them, then we have to give them time to get experience and play together as a cohesive unit.

For you ex-Oiler fans that were around during Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews, Carl Mauck, Dean Steinkuhler days, you KNOW the value of a good offensive line.
...and, as a bonus, can you give us a time frame?

A lot longer than you want, I guarantee you.

rhc564
12-16-2004, 04:38 PM
El Tejano said it best.


This is not a problem that can be quick-fixed by firing someone. There is not quick solution. It's not a playcalling problem. It's not a coaching problem. It is at best, a lack of experience problem. At worst, it's lack of talent problem. Now, that is something you don't want to hear, and you don't want to accept. Because if you did, then you'd have to accept the fact that this problem cannot be solved overnight. Seth Wand needs more experience, and a LOT more time in the weight room before we can even tell if he's the man at LT. We need a new center . . . period. And we need a new right guard . . . period. Free agency has proven NOT to be the solution. Not to me at least. So that means the draft. And then after we draft them, then we have to give them time to get experience and play together as a cohesive unit.

For you ex-Oiler fans that were around during Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews, Carl Mauck, Dean Steinkuhler days, you KNOW the value of a good offensive line.


A lot longer than you want, I guarantee you.

...problem is that I believe the avg playing life of an NFL player will exceed
the Texans ability to get ALL the RIGHT players in the RIGHT situations to
solve these problems before that expiration :shocked

HJam72
12-16-2004, 04:44 PM
I'm not sure what to think about Palmer, but I have some questions about the whole Freeney and Seth Wand debacle. I'd like to know where was Moran Norris on those pass plays. Why wasn't he helping Wand? Was he acting as a receiver? Should he have been helping Wand, because it seems like they should have had him do that. It just seems to me that, at some point, they the coaches should have found a way to stop Freeney, because it was no surprise at all when he got that last sack, for instance.

edo783
12-16-2004, 04:51 PM
Most of the time I think we were running a single back set, so Moran wouldn't be in there. However, even when he was in there, I didn't see him tasked with getting the DE blocked. Most of the time in those situation he was the lead blocker up the middle. I did see once where Freeney went wide and Moran got on what I think was the MLB and DD got a nice run.

Marcus
12-16-2004, 04:56 PM
...problem is that I believe the avg playing life of an NFL player will exceed the Texans ability to get ALL the RIGHT players in the RIGHT situations to solve these problems before that expiration :shocked

Jeeeeesus! And people say I'm negative? :thumbdown

HJam72
12-16-2004, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I wasn't trying to question Norris' effort, by the way. I also realized right after I finished that post that he might have been part of the run fake and then blocking up the middle. I just wonder if they would've been better off using him as help for Wand. Of course, they went to a 2 TE set at one point anyway, so I don't know. And, like you said, Norris wasn't on the field sometimes.

pek281
12-16-2004, 05:33 PM
Lol... it's getting deep. Sounds like we're ready for some dang football !!

Dhedluk
12-16-2004, 07:35 PM
Why do we draft Gunslinging Quarter backs when all we can do is dump it off to DD or audible to DD.


Maybe that's how Caper's got his D to look so good... draft all the new QBs then bench them. :hmmm:
Lets call it the "If you can't beat em, draft em" theory.

aj.
12-16-2004, 08:16 PM
Jeeeeesus! And people say I'm negative? :thumbdown

I was more taken by this one: if they don't win,
this board is going to light up with all those 'cup half/fullers' making our
kind of preminition posts look like nursery rhymes--sit back, enjoy the
games and smile..it's goona be sweet! Almost seems to be hoping for failure so someone can say I told you so.


For you ex-Oiler fans that were around during Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews, Carl Mauck, Dean Steinkuhler days, you KNOW the value of a good offensive line A couple of different eras there. The Munchak, Matthews, Steinkuhler line was an outstanding line with Pro Bowl talent.

The LYB OL with Mauck, Fisher, Schumacher, Reihner, Towns, Hayman, Bob Young were a bunch of overachievers. Bum got them believing in themselves and then a guy named Earl made them all look good. They added Leon Gray (a legit Pro Bowler) in '79 but for the most part they were a big time blue collar group which made Earl's accomplishments all that more amazing.

TexansTrueFan
12-16-2004, 08:27 PM
and lord i wonder why i'm so depressed after getting off these message boards !!!! I can only imagine why ........ :hmmm:

Texan Gal 312
12-16-2004, 08:34 PM
I was more taken by this one: Almost seems to be hoping for failure so someone can say I told you so.


A couple of different eras there. The Munchak, Matthews, Steinkuhler line was an outstanding line with Pro Bowl talent.

The LYB OL with Mauck, Fisher, Schumacher, Reihner, Towns, Hayman, Bob Young were a bunch of overachievers. Bum got them believing in themselves and then a guy named Earl made them all look good. They added Leon Gray (a legit Pro Bowler) in '79 but for the most part they were a big time blue collar group which made Earl's accomplishments all that more amazing.

AJ - could you please post your 'Palmer Job History" again. I can't find the one from a week or so ago. Maybe Vinny can make it a sticky and just leave it at the top of the message board

aj.
12-16-2004, 08:49 PM
I don't think digging up that thread is the best idea but I think this is what you are after:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=57069&highlight=Palmer#post57069

Texan Gal 312
12-16-2004, 09:07 PM
I don't think digging up that thread is the best idea but I think this is what you are after:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=57069&highlight=Palmer#post57069

thanks for the help.

Joe Texan
12-17-2004, 12:15 PM
I appreciate the input and have a lot of info/fiction to decifer. I am not down on the Team as a whole I just wanted to see where others stood on the question. I would stand behind the Texans if Micky Mouse was QB and he is over 50.

I believe that Carr does not have the time, he has problems reading the defense, audibles to the run in his 10% of the time, and needs to lead his awfence (kinda a cross from awful and offence) down the feild. I believe he is still in the learning stage and needs good linemen to block. He might also be hurt due to his ability to resort to the sidearm throw.

I believe that Dom has trouble with reading the feild, the playclock, the replay, and taking advantage of key situations. (point being the Tennessee game when Samari Rollle was 1 on 1 with AJ and had a hurt leg but could not get the attention of Jeff Fisher. It really did not matter cause we called a time out. I saw this from the Bull Pen after several beers. Now why can't Dom read it with eyes all over the stadium.

This season might be looked at as over but we have 3 more games and I want to win every one of them. So guys get your heads out in the sunshine and make some good decisions.

I am Joe Texan
Thats what I do

Meloy
12-21-2004, 04:11 PM
I was more taken by this one: Almost seems to be hoping for failure so someone can say I told you so.


A couple of different eras there. The Munchak, Matthews, Steinkuhler line was an outstanding line with Pro Bowl talent.

The LYB OL with Mauck, Fisher, Schumacher, Reihner, Towns, Hayman, Bob Young were a bunch of overachievers. Bum got them believing in themselves and then a guy named Earl made them all look good. They added Leon Gray (a legit Pro Bowler) in '79 but for the most part they were a big time blue collar group which made Earl's accomplishments all that more amazing.

Wow! You bring up memories. But a lineman named Fisher? Remind me more about him. Also, how many of those you name has 2 years pro (Pitts) and one year as does Wand? I agree that it hurts to see a 6'7" 327 pounder go *** over helmet but I still think he will do better as he develops arm strength. Notice the round we got both these guys in. It would be nice to spend a first on a stud left tackle but dline is my projection. Besides the guy that went high in first round as tackle on '04, could not even get on the field as the back up.

I am waiting to see if we stick with this blocking scheme in 2005. :thud:

TheOgre
12-21-2004, 04:17 PM
Why do we draft Gunslinging Quarter backs when all we can do is dump it off to DD or audible to DD. For a team to get lucky enough to get AJ is a miracle alone. But if you have him why can't you throw it to him at least once downfeild during a game. It just seems to me that we draft these QB's with records for passing But Dom continues to preach the Run and dump pass and punt. I keep hearing about there will be some changes but it is always the same ole same ole. :listening

Think of Troy Aikman's role. That approximates what Capers wants Carr to do.

aj.
12-21-2004, 07:14 PM
Wow! You bring up memories. But a lineman named Fisher? Remind me more about him. Also, how many of those you name has 2 years pro (Pitts) and one year as does Wand? I agree that it hurts to see a 6'7" 327 pounder go *** over helmet but I still think he will do better as he develops arm strength. Notice the round we got both these guys in. It would be nice to spend a first on a stud left tackle but dline is my projection. Besides the guy that went high in first round as tackle on '04, could not even get on the field as the back up.

I am waiting to see if we stick with this blocking scheme in 2005. :thud:

Ed Fisher....all I remember was that he played Guard and I think he wore #63 or maybe it was #61...I get him and Reihner mixed up. Anyway, Towns, Schumacher, and Reihner were all young bucks on that line. I think Towns may have started at tackle as a rookie. I can't remember... Mauck, Young, Fisher, Hayman, and Gray were all a little older from what I remember. Gray was in his prime ~ 5th year? I can look them up later if I can find my old Oilers media guide...

They will keep the blocking scheme in '05. I'm confident it will get better.