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Tailgate
07-08-2008, 02:15 PM
Good article from the main site:

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=4396

“I think a lot of our injuries came in the past from just how much we’re pushing each other, if that makes sense,” Kubiak said. “We weren’t a very good football team when we got started (in 2006). We had to really grind and push each other and battle on a daily basis to try to take some steps forward. I think we’ve done that. We’re a more athletic football team now. Our roster is better. I think we practice better. We stay off the ground. We protect each other better.


I think we all know how key its going to be to avoid the big injuries that have hit us in recent years. I think its time we got some good breaks (not literally of course) and maybe some of the other teams in the division lose their best players instead of us. Not wishing that of course... but if its gotta happen to someone then no one deserves to miss out on that more than us!


Injury Watch List (noted in article):

Demeco Ryans - Knee injury last year...played through it. Will be 100%
Andre Johnson - Should be at 100% by training camp after knee scoped (everyone will be keeping an eye on this one).
Matt Schaub - Looking good now, but still waiting to see reaction to physical contact on shoulder.
Ahman Green - Looking great now, but injury history lately is a concern.
Charles Spencer - Biggest question mark, injury still a huge concern and could be eventually cut.
Fred Weary - Work to do but working hard to get back starting role.
Anthony Weaver - Said feels better than he has in a long time and predicts huge year.
Chris Taylor - At 100% after season ending surgery last year.
Jacoby Jones - Slowed by Shoulder in rookie season, should be 100%
Brandon Harrison - At 100% heading into camp after Hamstring injury.
Glenn Earl - At 100% after season ending surgery last year.

El Tejano
07-08-2008, 02:26 PM
Well the depth of the team will allow for others to be able to not have to take so many reps that we will not be able to have back. If that makes any sense.

Tailgate
07-08-2008, 02:32 PM
Well the depth of the team will allow for others to be able to not have to take so many reps that we will not be able to have back. If that makes any sense.

It does... and for example when we lost linemen in the past we tried to patchwork to get by and we had players out of position which made things even worse. Depth has definitely improved.

But injuries like the ones to Dunta, Spencer, AJ, etc... were just forces of BAD FRICKING LUCK. I think we have paid our dues in that department (knock on wood).

Ghetto D
07-08-2008, 03:09 PM
I, for one, am glad to see SOME rational thought being put toward injuries. If it is just as simple as not going at each other so hard in practice - that works for me. In fact, I've heard people say that the reason Marty Schottenheimer's (sp?) teams would wear down was due to practicing too hard in camp and during the season.

I agree we SEEM to be unlucky compared to other teams, but maybe taking this approach will help us create our own luck.

nero THE zero
07-08-2008, 03:15 PM
I really don't think that quote from Kubiak is anything substantive. The injuries to our main guys (ie. Dunta, Schaub, AJ) last season weren't anything that could have been prevented by different practice techniques. It was simply freak occurences on the field. Maybe some of the other lesser guys' injuries are more preventitive, but a dislocated shoulder and a couple of twisted knees are pretty irrelevent to practice.

But you might be right about other teams getting their turn. I think the Colts are supposed to start camp with Sanders, Harrison, and Freeney all on PUP.

gary
07-08-2008, 04:37 PM
\I look for the Texans to have less injuries than they did last year. But if not, they have some pretty good back ups at virtually every position on the field. I do agree with having a little softer practice but not so much to where the team isn't ready to go at kickoff time on game day. I'm sure NE has a tough practice everyday and that's how they got to where they are today so let's not soften up practice too much if they do soften it up at all. If a NE player gets hurt in practice then the coaching staff basically sticks a replacement player in their spot and goes about the teams business and I'm hoping that with the back ups that we have on our roster right now that we will be able to do the samething that NE has done over the next few years. I'm really ecstatic about the great young talent that we have on our team at almost every level and look for them to make their first real playoff push this season. Hopefully, we will stay healthy this season. I'm really excited about this football team and the direction that they are headed in. GO TEXANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOU-TEX
07-08-2008, 04:57 PM
\I look for the Texans to have less injuries than they did last year. But if not, they have some pretty good back ups at virtually every position on the field. I do agree with having a little softer practice but not so much to where the team isn't ready to go at kickoff time on game day. I'm sure NE has a tough practice everyday and that's how they got to where they are today so let's not soften up practice too much if they do soften it up at all. If a NE player gets hurt in practice then the coaching staff basically sticks a replacement player in their spot and goes about the teams business and I'm hoping that with the back ups that we have on our roster right now that we will be able to do the samething that NE has done over the next few years. I'm really estatic about the great young talent that we have on our team at almost every level and look for them to make their first real playoff push this season. Hopefully we will stay healthy this season. I'm really excited about this football team and the direction that they are headed in. GO TEXANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

gary
07-08-2008, 05:10 PM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.Thank you.

Texan_Bill
07-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

*ditto here*

NBT
07-08-2008, 05:22 PM
I can go with what coach KUbiak said. He started out with a not at all athletic football team and has finally built it up to where we are competitive athletically speaking with any team in the league. Pushing too hard to make up for inadequacies is a sure sign of injuries to be. We really need to get out of the gate at a fast gallop this year, because it don't get any easier. As they say in the S.E.A.L.S., "the only easy day was yesterday".! :texflag:

dc_txtech
07-08-2008, 05:27 PM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

Must spread rep.......

gary
07-08-2008, 05:29 PM
I can go with what coach KUbiak said. He started out with a not at all athletic football team and has finally built it up to where we are competitive athletically speaking with any team in the league. Pushing too hard to make up for inadequacies is a sure sign of injuries to be. We really need to get out of the gate at a fast gallop this year, because it don't get any easier. As they say in the S.E.A.L.S., "the only easy day was yesterday".! :texflag:Like I said soften the practice up some but not a whole lot.

whiskeyrbl
07-08-2008, 05:44 PM
I've was starting to wonder if it was our medical staff doing a poor job. Seems like we started the last couple of years already decemated on depth due to injuries in camp. And most were the lil' nagging ones that seemed to hang around all year.

gary
07-08-2008, 05:53 PM
I've was starting to wonder if it was our medical staff doing a poor job. Seems like we started the last couple of years already decemated on depth due to injuries in camp. And most were the lil' nagging ones that seemed to hang around all year.Good point.

Tailgate
07-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Heres a boring video on Fred Wearys comeback effort posted on Texans tv. Looks like he is getting his football strength back. It does at least show an in depth approach to what these guys are doing in the gym on a daily basis. Kinda hard not to appreciate the hard work our guys are putting in to get this team where we all want it to be. You can't blame the injuries on lack of effort...

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv/

ATXtexanfan
07-08-2008, 06:04 PM
i don't get it, how do you work towards less injuries? you would think someone would have figured that out a long time ago

gary
07-08-2008, 06:40 PM
Heres a boring video on Fred Wearys comeback effort posted on Texans tv. Looks like he is getting his football strength back. It does at least show an in depth approach to what these guys are doing in the gym on a daily basis. Kinda hard not to appreciate the hard work our guys are putting in to get this team where we all want it to be. You can't blame the injuries on lack of effort...

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv/Hopefully those workouts will make the whole OL better and stronger. Building up those trunk leg and hip muscles should really help his blocking power. He could also use his big arms to help get in the face of the D player. Fred has really turned into a key part of the OL and gives MS the blocking that he needs along with the other OL members to allow MS lots of time to step up in the pocket and make that big time TD pass down the middle of the field to AJ.

edo783
07-08-2008, 07:33 PM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

Done

gary
07-08-2008, 07:59 PM
DoneThank you for the rep.

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2008, 08:21 PM
But injuries like the ones to Dunta, Spencer, AJ, etc... were just forces of BAD FRICKING LUCK. I think we have paid our dues in that department (knock on wood).


There's a line in the movie FIDDLER ON THE ROOF........"I know, G-d, we are the chosen people, but do you think you could choose someone else for once".................my addendum would be " could you consider America's team????.............:crutch:

The Pencil Neck
07-08-2008, 09:33 PM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

I hit him up.

The Pencil Neck
07-08-2008, 09:38 PM
i don't get it, how do you work towards less injuries? you would think someone would have figured that out a long time ago

Depends on the injury. For some injuries, being stronger or more flexible or having stronger tendons will keep you from getting injured. For other injuries, no amount of training can keep you from getting hurt.

They do a lot of neck work. I'm sure they probably work on stabilization and control as well.

Also, heavy work and ballistic work will increase the density of your bones. I don't think there's actually been any studies to correlate that with a lower likelihood of broken bones, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a slight decrease.

Texans_Chick
07-09-2008, 08:21 AM
and yet nobody talks about not using machines for everything in the weight room...

one of these days, people will notice the common denominator... a weight room filled with machines...


How can a NFL franchise weight room not have a single real squat rack, deadlift or olympic platform? tell me. how? its mind boggling.

I will tell you what the Texans staff would say. They want to increase strength without risking additional injury. So they avoid leg exercises that compress the spine. If a player gets injured in the weight room, that is a Fail to the staff.

Their goals are 1. increase strength; 2. improve strength to avoid injuries; 3. don't get injured in the weight room.

They also have football specific activities that they have the players do outside the weightroom.

/just the messenger

Xetuoh1836
07-09-2008, 08:50 AM
How much of this warning might have affected some of our players or any other player in sports?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378102,00.html

Cjeremy635
07-09-2008, 08:57 AM
Nice post Gary. + Rep

*edit: Imagine that, I have to spread the rep around. Geez, can somebady hit Gary up with some + Rep please.

I got him for you.

gary
07-09-2008, 09:21 AM
How much of this warning might have affected some of our players or any other player in sports?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378102,00.html
All the players have to do is stop using the drug. Why won't they stop is it that they don't care? What is it?

TexansFanatic
07-09-2008, 10:07 AM
Funny. I remember posting something about this years ago and I got some dismissive responses. I've always thought that there was a connection between the way a coach pushes his players in practice and the number of injuries that occur over the course of a season.

I brought this up during the Capers era because his teams suffered a hell of a lot of injuries. I thought for sure this would change under Kubiak, but it turns out he just confessed to the same thing.

gary
07-09-2008, 11:09 AM
Funny. I remember posting something about this years ago and I got some dismissive responses. I've always thought that there was a connection between the way a coach pushes his players in practice and the number of injuries that occur over the course of a season.

I brought this up during the Capers era because his teams suffered a hell of a lot of injuries. I thought for sure this would change under Kubiak, but it turns out he just confessed to the same thing.Maybe we do need to change our team doctor? I don't know.

The Pencil Neck
07-09-2008, 11:36 AM
and yet nobody talks about not using machines for everything in the weight room...

one of these days, people will notice the common denominator... a weight room filled with machines...


How can a NFL franchise weight room not have a single real squat rack, deadlift or olympic platform? tell me. how? its mind boggling.

Don't get me started.

But... surely they have a power cage? I mean, I don't care much about an oly platform, all you really need is some bumper plates and the floor... but you gotta have a power cage. Hell. I have a power cage.

The Pencil Neck
07-09-2008, 11:42 AM
I will tell you what the Texans staff would say. They want to increase strength without risking additional injury. So they avoid leg exercises that compress the spine. If a player gets injured in the weight room, that is a Fail to the staff.

Their goals are 1. increase strength; 2. improve strength to avoid injuries; 3. don't get injured in the weight room.

They also have football specific activities that they have the players do outside the weightroom.

/just the messenger

What does that have to do with Olympic lifting? The focus should be on power, not strength. And the development of power is Olympic lifting and plyometrics. Tell me they're doing things like power cleans, high pulls, box jumps, and things like that.

And tell me they're squatting and deadlifting? Nothing builds strength better and isolation exercises (which ignore stabilization) result in more injuries than squatting and deadlifting.

If they're just giving these guys a bunch of machines to work on and not using free weights then I've got a real problem with that. Machines are evil.

nunusguy
07-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Not related directly to injuries, but to overall/general conditioning of the players, I wish Kubiak would do something Capers didn't do: take the players out of the heat.
What's the benefit of practicing in the horrendous Houston heat-humidity in
July & August ? Of our 8 divisional games each year, only one is played outside in the Sunbelt environment. And I can't help but think the practices outside in the most extreme part of Houstons very extreme climate don't do anything towards contributing to condidtioning. Perhaps just the opposite ?

HOU-TEX
07-10-2008, 09:33 AM
I know. I've read all that garbage before. I just remember walking through the weight room during all access (btw, I saw you there TC) - and there was not a single power rack, oly platform, or glute ham raise, reverse hyper or any other bullet point of what I would consider staples of athletic development.

I was simply appalled.



No. They have quasi-racks with 3'' hole spacing with incline benches set up. Thats the closest thing they have to real free weights. Well that and db's. I only noticed them up to 150, but I wasn't paying too much attention to those. They may go to 200. But to answer your question, no. Not a single power cage for squatting or GM's. BUT THEY HAVE A SMITH MACHINE!!! UGh, mind boggling.




Sounds to me like camp steroids has another member! ugh, evil evil machines.

I understand where you're coming from, but instead of constantly questioning the weight training regimen and equipement, why don't you contact someone from the organization. Or better yet, Riley has an early morning radio show on Saturdays you could call in or send a message to. Who better to answer your questions than the man behind it all? It's only a phone call away.

BTW, this post wasn't meant to sound like an asshat. I just think if you have that much of a concern you should straighten it out. Peace!

:texflag:

The Pencil Neck
07-10-2008, 02:17 PM
BTW, this post wasn't meant to sound like an asshat. I just think if you have that much of a concern you should straighten it out. Peace!

:texflag:

Well, first off, I'm in exile in Dallas. So I'm not going to be calling in and I can't offer my services. (Although I'd suggest they talk to my friend Kim Goss, currently an editor with Bigger, Faster, Stronger and ghost writer for Charles Poliquin and Dr. Mel Siff.)

I seriously did not know that our approach to strength training is so messed up. From what TC had been saying, this guy is supposed to be very highly respected in the league but reliance on machines is a sure way to increase the number of injuries that a lifter has.

If you want to improve athletic performance, then olympic based lifting is the way to go. There was a study done at the Olympics in 1968 where they had athletes compete in other sports just to see who was the most athletic. Olympic Weightlifters were the most athletic. Even the big superheavyweights were faster out of the blocks and for the first 10 feet than any other type of athlete... including sprinters, iirc.

There are other plyometric techniques that you should use to supplement your routine that mimic things that you do while playing. These strengthen your tendons in your knees and shoulders.

Of course, squats (NOT SM*TH MACHINE SQUATS, which are evil) and deadlifts to improve overall strength. For linemen, incline benches. I trained with the strength coach from the Air Force academy from the 90's who trained those great offensive lines they had back then and he took a bunch of guys that struggled to incline bench 135# and got the entire line over 315# incline benches and at the same time, the team went from a bunch of losers to having a monster running attack. The incline bench translates better than a flat bench to the position.

I have to admit. I'm going to start sending e-mails to find out more about why we're taking such a 1980's approach to our strength training. I'm half afraid I'm going to find out they're doing HIT routines.

Texans_Chick
07-10-2008, 07:05 PM
What does that have to do with Olympic lifting? The focus should be on power, not strength. And the development of power is Olympic lifting and plyometrics. Tell me they're doing things like power cleans, high pulls, box jumps, and things like that.

And tell me they're squatting and deadlifting? Nothing builds strength better and isolation exercises (which ignore stabilization) result in more injuries than squatting and deadlifting.

If they're just giving these guys a bunch of machines to work on and not using free weights then I've got a real problem with that. Machines are evil.


Riley is anti-plyometric. He believes that the best way to train for an activity is to do that activity. So he wants people training for football doing football moves. He believes that plyometrics increases joint problems and increases the risk of injuries.

I am not as anti-machine as some, and I understand it can be an easier way of training large numbers of people. I think machines are just a part of training. But I also think that there is strength training that is hard to replicate on machines, and that I like the type of training that is so hard that when you do the activity you are training for, it feels easy in comparison. Which is why working on plyometric activities is so good for explosive power.

Or, for example, Riley made fun of the lineman who used to push cars as a part of his training. With the thought that players do not push cars in games. Well, they also don't lift weights in a slow controlled manner either. If you want to get your muscles accustomed to working together to generate power, pushing a car might not be a bad thing to do. If you can push a car, well then using power to push a defensive lineman is a bad thing to do.

The Titans are reportedly doing kettleball exercises. Using power along with aerobic stamina. You do that for a while, and football *feels* easy to you. It also keeps your workouts from getting stale.

Yeah, you can continue to get stronger doing particular machines, but that only gives you strength to do that machine, and doesn't help with strength while moving. You can be weight lifting heavy in ways that don't translate to athletic performance.

Riley would respond that he wants football players practicing football moves, but that speaks more to agility and speed and less to doing football moves with strength.

I am also curious with the amount of rest they have during the season. Riley has them lift hard on Mondays after games (working around injuries). He says this preserves strength. I'd be interested to see how many other teams do full strength lifting the day after games. For my own performance, I find that mild aerobic activity with some lighter lifting makes me feel fresher. More of an active recovery but giving myself the ability for my muscles to heal and protect themselves.

Your thoughts?

Texans_Chick
07-10-2008, 07:08 PM
I know. I've read all that garbage before. I just remember walking through the weight room during all access (btw, I saw you there TC) - and there was not a single power rack, oly platform, or glute ham raise, reverse hyper or any other bullet point of what I would consider staples of athletic development.

I was simply appalled.

No. They have quasi-racks with 3'' hole spacing with incline benches set up. Thats the closest thing they have to real free weights. Well that and db's. I only noticed them up to 150, but I wasn't paying too much attention to those. They may go to 200. But to answer your question, no. Not a single power cage for squatting or GM's. BUT THEY HAVE A SMITH MACHINE!!! UGh, mind boggling.

Sounds to me like camp steroids has another member! ugh, evil evil machines.

Hey! Next time you see me be sure to say "hi."

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2008, 09:26 PM
Riley is anti-plyometric. He believes that the best way to train for an activity is to do that activity. So he wants people training for football doing football moves. He believes that plyometrics increases joint problems and increases the risk of injuries.

I am not as anti-machine as some, and I understand it can be an easier way of training large numbers of people. I think machines are just a part of training. But I also think that there is strength training that is hard to replicate on machines, and that I like the type of training that is so hard that when you do the activity you are training for, it feels easy in comparison. Which is why working on plyometric activities is so good for explosive power.

Or, for example, Riley made fun of the lineman who used to push cars as a part of his training. With the thought that players do not push cars in games. Well, they also don't lift weights in a slow controlled manner either. If you want to get your muscles accustomed to working together to generate power, pushing a car might not be a bad thing to do. If you can push a car, well then using power to push a defensive lineman is a bad thing to do.

The Titans are reportedly doing kettleball exercises. Using power along with aerobic stamina. You do that for a while, and football *feels* easy to you. It also keeps your workouts from getting stale.

Yeah, you can continue to get stronger doing particular machines, but that only gives you strength to do that machine, and doesn't help with strength while moving. You can be weight lifting heavy in ways that don't translate to athletic performance.

Riley would respond that he wants football players practicing football moves, but that speaks more to agility and speed and less to doing football moves with strength.

I am also curious with the amount of rest they have during the season. Riley has them lift hard on Mondays after games (working around injuries). He says this preserves strength. I'd be interested to see how many other teams do full strength lifting the day after games. For my own performance, I find that mild aerobic activity with some lighter lifting makes me feel fresher. More of an active recovery but giving myself the ability for my muscles to heal and protect themselves.

Your thoughts?


The use of machines takes away the 3-dimensional aspect of training. Take bench pressing as an example. With machines, the goal is reached simply when a concentrated muscle group is strong enough to meet the goal of lifting a set amount of weight to full extension. With free weights, an individual must not only meet his goal of lifting a weight to full extension, but also maintain balance in 3-dimensional space. This essentially requires the strengthening of the JOINT STABILITY ...........and in the world of football, what accounts for the majority of significant injuries????????...........the knees, the shoulders, the ankles, the hips........in other words, the JOINTS.

Performance is indeed dependent upon strength and power. However, performance is indisputably only as good as joint stability will carry it. When joint stability/strength weakens, performance is compromised. And as one joint weakness or injury is present you can expect another compensating joint injury to not be far behind.

I would definitely vote for preferential emphasis on the free weight training approach for our players.

The Pencil Neck
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
Riley is anti-plyometric. He believes that the best way to train for an activity is to do that activity. So he wants people training for football doing football moves. He believes that plyometrics increases joint problems and increases the risk of injuries.

I am not as anti-machine as some, and I understand it can be an easier way of training large numbers of people. I think machines are just a part of training. But I also think that there is strength training that is hard to replicate on machines, and that I like the type of training that is so hard that when you do the activity you are training for, it feels easy in comparison. Which is why working on plyometric activities is so good for explosive power.

Or, for example, Riley made fun of the lineman who used to push cars as a part of his training. With the thought that players do not push cars in games. Well, they also don't lift weights in a slow controlled manner either. If you want to get your muscles accustomed to working together to generate power, pushing a car might not be a bad thing to do. If you can push a car, well then using power to push a defensive lineman is a bad thing to do.

The Titans are reportedly doing kettleball exercises. Using power along with aerobic stamina. You do that for a while, and football *feels* easy to you. It also keeps your workouts from getting stale.

Yeah, you can continue to get stronger doing particular machines, but that only gives you strength to do that machine, and doesn't help with strength while moving. You can be weight lifting heavy in ways that don't translate to athletic performance.

Riley would respond that he wants football players practicing football moves, but that speaks more to agility and speed and less to doing football moves with strength.

I am also curious with the amount of rest they have during the season. Riley has them lift hard on Mondays after games (working around injuries). He says this preserves strength. I'd be interested to see how many other teams do full strength lifting the day after games. For my own performance, I find that mild aerobic activity with some lighter lifting makes me feel fresher. More of an active recovery but giving myself the ability for my muscles to heal and protect themselves.

Your thoughts?

On Machines:

As you said, when you get stronger with a machine, you're just getting stronger on that machine. There are several problems with machines. The first is that they're designed to fit a particular size person with certain body measurements. You can usually move things around somewhat but with machines, they never fit quite right. And that leads to injury.

Second, you're creating a very unnatural situation where you're making one muscle (or group of muscles) stronger without also training the muscles that normal work in conjunction with those muscles. That creates strength imbalances and that leads to injuries.

Thirdly, it forces you into an unnatural movement. Take the smith machine for doing squats. When you do free weight squats, the bar doesn't follow a straight line on the way up and down. Because of the lengths of your bones and the hand of from one group of muscles to another, there's usually some curve to it and there's usually some wobble. Forcing your body to move something in the straight line (or arc) that a machine forces you into is dangerous.

Fourthly, some machines put unnatural stresses on your body. A great example is the leg extension. Your body is designed so that force is applied to the bottoms of your feet but with a leg extension, it's applying that force perpendicular to the shin. Your shin is not designed to have force applied directly to it. This can cause serious damage in your knee.

If Riley wants guys getting stronger doing football moves, which I agree with, then he shouldn't have them working on the machines.

Now, personally, I think pushing cars is a great real world way to develop strength. I think it would make you stronger pushing guys while you're in the line. And I think if done correctly, it can mimic the things that linemen do when they're playing.

When I trained with Kim Goss, he would start me off with exercises that were in the same family as my main lifts and then as meets approached, we would change to lifts that were more and more similar to my main lifts. Finally we would end up doing my lifts right before the meet.

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like he doesn't believe in periodization. While there are some bad forms of periodization out there, I think it's kinda silly to just throw it all out. I think that doing the same routines in and out of season is a bit foolish and overlooks the extra work capacity available in the offseason. But I'm not a strength coach (although I have worked with several) and I'm not sure exactly what modifications I'd make during the season but I'm pretty sure that I'd cut back volume and I'd play around with intensity. The day after workout, I'd be more likely to go with a light lifting day as an active recovery day instead of as a heavy day. Overall, I think I'd approach the year in a periodized manner with different goals at different times with the goal not to peak with strength before the beginning of TC but with conditioning.

Sorry. Didn't mean to rant there.

Texans_Chick
07-10-2008, 10:36 PM
The use of machines takes away the 3-dimensional aspect of training. Take bench pressing as an example. With machines, the goal is reached simply when a concentrated muscle group is strong enough to meet the goal of lifting a set amount of weight to full extension. With free weights, an individual must not only meet his goal of lifting a weight to full extension, but also maintain balance in 3-dimensional space. This essentially requires the strengthening of the JOINT STABILITY ...........and in the world of football, what accounts for the majority of significant injuries????????...........the knees, the shoulders, the ankles, the hips........in other words, the JOINTS.

Performance is indeed dependent upon strength and power. However, performance is indisputably only as good as joint stability will carry it. When joint stability/strength weakens, performance is compromised. And as one joint weakness or injury is present you can expect another compensating joint injury to not be far behind.

I would definitely vote for preferential emphasis on the free weight training approach for our players.


Yeah, did you all see the Fred Weary video of his workout? (Put a copy of it of my vanilla write up about injuries at FanHouse: "Houston Texans Working to Reduce Injuries, No Bubble Wrap Involved (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/07/10/houston-texans-working-to-reduce-injuries-no-bubble-wrap-involv/)") How does that help with explosive power?


(By the way, the programmers at FanHouse did a major redo of the site and the urls and the redirects don't all work. So you bored peoples can find my FanHouse stuff at this link (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/bloggers/stephanie-stradley/). I think I fixed it in my sig too).

Texans_Chick
07-10-2008, 10:45 PM
On Machines:

As you said, when you get stronger with a machine, you're just getting stronger on that machine. There are several problems with machines. The first is that they're designed to fit a particular size person with certain body measurements. You can usually move things around somewhat but with machines, they never fit quite right. And that leads to injury.

Second, you're creating a very unnatural situation where you're making one muscle (or group of muscles) stronger without also training the muscles that normal work in conjunction with those muscles. That creates strength imbalances and that leads to injuries.

Thirdly, it forces you into an unnatural movement. Take the smith machine for doing squats. When you do free weight squats, the bar doesn't follow a straight line on the way up and down. Because of the lengths of your bones and the hand of from one group of muscles to another, there's usually some curve to it and there's usually some wobble. Forcing your body to move something in the straight line (or arc) that a machine forces you into is dangerous.

Fourthly, some machines put unnatural stresses on your body. A great example is the leg extension. Your body is designed so that force is applied to the bottoms of your feet but with a leg extension, it's applying that force perpendicular to the shin. Your shin is not designed to have force applied directly to it. This can cause serious damage in your knee.

If Riley wants guys getting stronger doing football moves, which I agree with, then he shouldn't have them working on the machines.

Now, personally, I think pushing cars is a great real world way to develop strength. I think it would make you stronger pushing guys while you're in the line. And I think if done correctly, it can mimic the things that linemen do when they're playing.

When I trained with Kim Goss, he would start me off with exercises that were in the same family as my main lifts and then as meets approached, we would change to lifts that were more and more similar to my main lifts. Finally we would end up doing my lifts right before the meet.

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like he doesn't believe in periodization. While there are some bad forms of periodization out there, I think it's kinda silly to just throw it all out. I think that doing the same routines in and out of season is a bit foolish and overlooks the extra work capacity available in the offseason. But I'm not a strength coach (although I have worked with several) and I'm not sure exactly what modifications I'd make during the season but I'm pretty sure that I'd cut back volume and I'd play around with intensity. The day after workout, I'd be more likely to go with a light lifting day as an active recovery day instead of as a heavy day. Overall, I think I'd approach the year in a periodized manner with different goals at different times with the goal not to peak with strength before the beginning of TC but with conditioning.

Sorry. Didn't mean to rant there.


Nah, that is some interesting stuff. No need to apologize. I'm a huge cross-training/muscle confusion fan, mostly because I find that I stop feeling good sore if I do the same activity too much even if I increase the resistance. I also think that if I do a variety of activities, it is less likely to result in muscle imbalances and injuries.

I would like to add that a lot of machines don't really work your core muscles very well either and don't do much for balance and stability.

It is amazing how sore you can get from doing just balance exercises that get many muscles activated.

ChampionTexan
07-11-2008, 12:44 AM
Everything in the NFL seems to be judged by results, and while Dan Riley's tenure with the Texans hasn't shown much in that regard, he also spent 19 years with the Redskins, a period that included all 3 of their Super Bowl Championships (along with a 4th less successful appearance).

Clearly there are folks on this board who know considerably more about strength training than I do. Since many of those same folks seem to wonder about (if not vocally disagree with) Riley's methods, I have a sincere question for any or all of you. Do you believe that the strength and conditioning field has passed Dan by, and that the techniques that worked in the '80's don't work anymore? Or is it that Dan has adopted different philosophies than he employed in Washington and those philosphies are unproven or flawed? Or do you simply believe that Washington succeeded more in spite of Dan Riley than as a result.

Trust me, I'm not trying to call anybody out - you raise some concerns that definitely make me think. I'm just trying to get a better handle on what made this guy go from a Super Bowl winning Asst. coach to a guy some of you clearly feel jeopardizes our chances for big-time success.

Thanks in advance for any feedback you've got.

The Pencil Neck
07-11-2008, 01:08 AM
Nah, that is some interesting stuff. No need to apologize. I'm a huge cross-training/muscle confusion fan, mostly because I find that I stop feeling good sore if I do the same activity too much even if I increase the resistance. I also think that if I do a variety of activities, it is less likely to result in muscle imbalances and injuries.

I would like to add that a lot of machines don't really work your core muscles very well either and don't do much for balance and stability.

It is amazing how sore you can get from doing just balance exercises that get many muscles activated.

I ended up writing a book in response to this but decided that no one wanted to read it. No one wants to hear my rant about adaptation. :pirate:

I will just tell this one little story.

One coach I trained with thought that because I was a powerlifter that I was hung up on pushing big weights. You know... IF THE BAR AIN'T BENDIN, YOU'RE JUST PRETENDIN. I'm not like that but this coach didn't know that.

And so he decided to teach me a lesson. Using nothing more than a 5 pound dumbell, a 5 pound plate, and some medicine balls, he put me through a routine that had me puking my guts out and sore for about a week. There's a lot you can do with just your body.

I never want to learn that lesson again.

The Pencil Neck
07-11-2008, 01:18 AM
Yeah, did you all see the Fred Weary video of his workout? (Put a copy of it of my vanilla write up about injuries at FanHouse: "Houston Texans Working to Reduce Injuries, No Bubble Wrap Involved (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/07/10/houston-texans-working-to-reduce-injuries-no-bubble-wrap-involv/)") How does that help with explosive power?


Exactly. How is a 5 second concentric/eccentric explosive*? How is a leg curl exactly mimicking a football move? Why is a leg press a better mimic of real world moves than a squat? How often are you going to be moving your legs like that with your back against a wall when you're playing football?

I didn't see the whole video. I tried to view it from FanHouse and it got locked up during the leg curls. I mean, please. Leg curls? You want to work your hamstrings that way (from the knee side), try this:

http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/gluteham.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/WTHamstringRaise.html

* This actually sounds like he's a fan of the TUT (time under tension) philosophy which... well... that's not good.

The Pencil Neck
07-11-2008, 01:31 AM
Everything in the NFL seems to be judged by results, and while Dan Riley's tenure with the Texans hasn't shown much in that regard, he also spent 19 years with the Redskins, a period that included all 3 of their Super Bowl Championships (along with a 4th less successful appearance).

Clearly there are folks on this board who know considerably more about strength training than I do. Since many of those same folks seem to wonder about (if not vocally disagree with) Riley's methods, I have a sincere question for any or all of you. Do you believe that the strength and conditioning field has passed Dan by, and that the techniques that worked in the '80's don't work anymore? Or is it that Dan has adopted different philosophies than he employed in Washington and those philosphies are unproven or flawed? Or do you simply believe that Washington succeeded more in spite of Dan Riley than as a result.

Trust me, I'm not trying to call anybody out - you raise some concerns that definitely make me think. I'm just trying to get a better handle on what made this guy go from a Super Bowl winning Asst. coach to a guy some of you clearly feel jeopardizes our chances for big-time success.

Thanks in advance for any feedback you've got.

A lot of things have happened in the field of exercise science in the past 20 years. A lot of things have been learned in the past 10 years.

Back in the day, when weight training was really starting to be used seriously, they based their routines on the workout routines of bodybuilders. Bodybuilders are frequently not athletic, they're just big. And the approach you use to train to maximize hypertrophy is not the same approach you use to train to maximize performance.

Up until this thread, I've never really read much about Riley's approach to weight training. I've heard he knows his stuff and I was fine with that.

Back in the 80's and 90's, it was very popular to base routines off the work of Arthur Jones and the HIT movement. This was a bodybuilding movement that stressed training to failure and working on muscles in isolation using machines. One of the variations of this was the SuperSlow movement which was touted as a way to minimize injury because it stressed time under tension and very slow movement. The problem with SuperSlow is it trains you to be slow. Which is the opposite of what you want.

But from what I saw of the Fred Weary recovery video, Riley is using a lot of the concepts from SuperSlow and some of those old bodybuilding approaches.

There are a variety of different approaches that are more modern for improving performance. Most of them involve a mixture of Olympic lifting techniques with Powerlifting techniques and plyometrics. Even though I powerlift, I'd suggest an approach that stressed Olympic types of techniques because I believe that's the best way to train for explosive power.

The field of strength training is much more competitive now than 20 years ago. There's a ton more research as well as a lot more practical experience. Riley might have been cutting edge 20 years ago but from what I'm seeing, he's still back there.

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2008, 12:18 PM
Exactly. How is a 5 second concentric/eccentric explosive*? How is a leg curl exactly mimicking a football move? Why is a leg press a better mimic of real world moves than a squat? How often are you going to be moving your legs like that with your back against a wall when you're playing football?

I didn't see the whole video. I tried to view it from FanHouse and it got locked up during the leg curls. I mean, please. Leg curls? You want to work your hamstrings that way (from the knee side), try this:

http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/gluteham.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/WTHamstringRaise.html

* This actually sounds like he's a fan of the TUT (time under tension) philosophy which... well... that's not good.

Yeah, did you all see the Fred Weary video of his workout? (Put a copy of it of my vanilla write up about injuries at FanHouse: "Houston Texans Working to Reduce Injuries, No Bubble Wrap Involved (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/07/10/houston-texans-working-to-reduce-injuries-no-bubble-wrap-involv/)") How does that help with explosive power?


(By the way, the programmers at FanHouse did a major redo of the site and the urls and the redirects don't all work. So you bored peoples can find my FanHouse stuff at this link (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/bloggers/stephanie-stradley/). I think I fixed it in my sig too).


TC,
I'd have to direct you to the nice succint answer that Pencil Neck (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=952074&postcount=44)had for this post. I'm not following how explosiveness is achieved either.

Another point I want to make, which may differ with the opinions of some already given, is that actually people like Riley may have lost their "edge" by trying to keep up with the high tech revolution. The need for the Texans (and others) to boast of the "state of the art," the "greatest and newest," the "ultimate" has seemed to in a way lead us away from things that have passed the test of time. Sometimes, it is possible (and I've seen this many times in medicine) that marketing has led the charge over common sense and experience, where change for change’s sake must lead to the “better product.” Such seems to be the case to me in the area we are speaking of here. Sometimes, you can theorize, "scientificate," and overthink very simple principles in the name of getting the "edge. When minutia details and "bean counter-like" principles are allowed to drive a business or organization, the forest becomes lost for the trees. Again, as much as I respect and love the organization, I believe that , at least in some areas, this is what has happened.

Honoring Earl 34
07-11-2008, 12:58 PM
There are a variety of different approaches that are more modern for improving performance. Most of them involve a mixture of Olympic lifting techniques with Powerlifting techniques and plyometrics. Even though I powerlift, I'd suggest an approach that stressed Olympic types of techniques because I believe that's the best way to train for explosive power.


I read an article in the 90's about the Chicago Bulls using Olympic lifts in their training . Jordan , Pippen , and Horace Grant were amazed by the increases in their measurements ( 40yd , verticle , etc. ) .

I would think a hybrid in workouts might be an answer but would agree that if it ain't broke don't fix it . The Texans and all their injuries is a major problem that can't be blamed on bad luck much longer .

Texans_Chick
11-13-2008, 10:11 AM
I am bringing this thread back to note that over on my Chron.com blog, there is a bit of a discussion going on about the strength and conditioning staff, and what methods the Texans are using.

Basically, I think at this point, the Texans need to be looking at what is working and not working with the team. If you have had only one S&C coach, and your team is not terribly physical and fades in second half, and your most fit players are the ones that came to the team that way already, it is worth examining whether improvements can be made in this area:

My Houston Texans roadmap: What the Texans need to do short and long term (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2008/11/my_houston_texans_roadmap_what.html)

I know that this is a pet issue for some of you over here so I figured I might want to give you a heads up.

Yankee_In_TX
11-13-2008, 10:16 AM
Or how about questioning S+C over the rash of players sent to IR over the years?

Texan_Bill
11-13-2008, 10:30 AM
Or how about questioning S+C over the rash of players sent to IR over the years?

Are you crazy? Suicidal??? Don't ever question Dan Riley. I did once and half my butt was chewed off and spit out by many members here... :wild:

HOU-TEX
11-13-2008, 10:32 AM
Are you crazy? Suicidal??? Don't ever question Dan Riley. I did once and half my butt was chewed off and spit out by many members here... :wild:

So, I suppose Diles snapping his leg in half on a blade of grass is Riley's fault??


:stirpot:

Vinny
11-13-2008, 10:33 AM
I've was starting to wonder if it was our medical staff doing a poor job. Seems like we started the last couple of years already decemated on depth due to injuries in camp. And most were the lil' nagging ones that seemed to hang around all year.

The better physical specimens usually win battles and beat up lesser specimens....back in HS have any of you guys ever played a team that was loaded with better and bigger athletes? You probably had more injuries than they did. Just a generality but if you have a smallish finesse team (kinda like the one Kubiak constructed) you will just have more injuries imo.

Polo
11-13-2008, 10:39 AM
The better physical specimens usually win battles and beat up lesser specimens....back in HS have any of you guys ever played a team that was loaded with better and bigger athletes? You probably had more injuries than they did. Just a generality but if you have a smallish finesse team (kinda like the one Kubiak constructed) you will just have more injuries imo.

I played in a situation like that...

Except we were the team loaded with better athletes and their guys kept getting carted off...

Something else that breeds injuries is losing...

Texan_Bill
11-13-2008, 10:43 AM
So, I suppose Diles snapping his leg in half on a blade of grass is Riley's fault??


:stirpot:

I excuse Riley for that one. That was purely the blade of grasses fault.

BuffaloglennTX
11-13-2008, 11:05 AM
I excuse Riley for that one. That was purely the blade of grasses fault.

Now we need to rake the groundskeeper over the coals for having grass that is too stiff on the practice fields. What is he thinking! Pink soap the groundskeeper next.

Texans_Chick
11-13-2008, 11:07 AM
The better physical specimens usually win battles and beat up lesser specimens....back in HS have any of you guys ever played a team that was loaded with better and bigger athletes? You probably had more injuries than they did. Just a generality but if you have a smallish finesse team (kinda like the one Kubiak constructed) you will just have more injuries imo.

I do think that smaller teams will more likely get hammered, and that's one of the things that I discussed in the same post. (Facing the NFC East crushed the Texans in 2006 like facing the NFC North may do this year. Facing last year's NFC South wasn't so bad physically in comparison).

That being said, I am not a big fan of machine weight training only as a method of improving strength. With my own personal workouts, I've found that I can do machine training all day but the best stuff that has helped me with athletic strength was doing some non-machine weight training work. Got an extra 30 yards on my golf drives with a trainer who did golf-focused weight training with me--we used hardly any machines.

Of course that is golf, but if you look around the league, I am guessing that few teams only do machine weights as their strength program. I have a friend that does a ton of kettleball work, like the Titans do, and he swears up and down on it, talking about how it helps with strength through movement, explosive strength and strength during cardiovascular endurance.

As I mentioned in my Chron piece, the most fit players on the Texans came to the Texans that way. Andre Johnson has done a ton of his workout stuff in the past with the U of Miami folks, and a lot of it are things that Riley doesn't preach.

I also admit to being a fan of plyometric work as I have found good benefits from it. (The link I have in my comments discusses how a lot of teams do explosive strength work and running training that the Texans do not believe in from a S&C perspective).

Besides, I have to say that the Texans weight program looks boring to me--I have a bias in my own workouts with doing a variety of work.

I like Riley a ton, and I know that his training method is the easiest way to work with large groups of players to avoid training related injuries, but no matter how the Texans have been put together--whether under Capers or Kubiak--I don't think they have been the strongest dudes in the league

Vinny
11-13-2008, 07:34 PM
Boring? Since when was weight training exciting? Training for strength and explosion takes effort mostly...and then you do redundant work. Riley did pretty well for the Redskins. I've heard him talk about how he trains and I don't see any problems with his knowledge of how the body works and responds as it pertains to progressive resistance training.

CloakNNNdagger
11-13-2008, 09:11 PM
Knowing that the NFL bans serving any form of alcohol at any team function, I would even more importantly want to know what the Texans restriction of alcohol policy is, if any exists. And is it enforced. Alcohol consumption even in moderation especially within 48 hours of athletic contests is associated with decreased strength, performance, stamina, hydration, concentration, quick decision-making, and increase in injuries. Certainly our players have not uncommonly been spotted in bars on the weekend of Sunday games.

The1ApplePie
11-13-2008, 09:14 PM
The better physical specimens usually win battles and beat up lesser specimens....back in HS have any of you guys ever played a team that was loaded with better and bigger athletes? You probably had more injuries than they did. Just a generality but if you have a smallish finesse team (kinda like the one Kubiak constructed) you will just have more injuries imo.

The only exception you iget is guys that put on too much muscle (chemical help or otherwise). Then you have a ton of injuries mount up on ya.

steelbtexan
11-13-2008, 09:27 PM
Riley is god

You cant fire the messiah

LOL

Seriously everybody from the CC regime should have been fired when Kubes was hired.

Out with the old & in with the new.

How the part of the old regime has held on as long as they have amazes me.

Texans_Chick
11-13-2008, 09:36 PM
Boring? Since when was weight training exciting? Training for strength and explosion takes effort mostly...and then you do redundant work. Riley did pretty well for the Redskins. I've heard him talk about how he trains and I don't see any problems with his knowledge of how the body works and responds as it pertains to progressive resistance training.

I like weight training. I don't do much of it any more because I don't need to. But doing JUST machines is IMO 1. boring; 2. strengthens individual muscles without creating much moving, connective strength;3 slows gains because your muscles get used to machine help.

Riley made huge improvements with the Redskins because nobody was training and they were smoking cigs in the lockerroom. So doing something clearly was better than nothing. But do you feel comfortable with just machine training mixed with football moves for strength and speed?