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the wonger need food
12-15-2004, 12:21 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&page=/trend/2004week15

The best quote is... "No one in that front seven scares you. They're really not that athletic, not nearly as versatile as the better (3-4) teams in the league."

Why again did they sign Gary Walker to an extension for $11 million???

wolf123
12-15-2004, 12:24 PM
It was a very good article and I completely agree. Our ends just arent getting the job done and theirs a huge hole at the other mlb spot. We need to go and get a good end like marcus spears or MLB like ahmad brooks.

Yankee_In_TX
12-15-2004, 12:27 PM
Yup, as we get burned time and time again cause they can't move.

Jay
12-15-2004, 12:32 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&page=/trend/2004week15

Len Pasquarelli with ESPN.com wrote an excellent article on the problems that the Texans' 3-4 defense are having. The most telling quotes are:

"One club official in Houston hinted last weekend that some of the high-profile Texans defenders, especially in the front seven, have gotten old fast."

See any of those kinds of "edge" rushers on the Houston roster? It is a linebacker corps that includes not a single player who has ever posted double-digit sacks in a season. Fact is, the lone Texans defender who has ever registered 10 sacks in a year is Walker, and he did it just once. Said one offensive coordinator whose team faced the Texans earlier this year: "No one in that front seven scares you. They're really not that athletic, not nearly as versatile as the better (3-4) teams in the league."

It would seem that Payne & Walker may be 2 of front 7 that have gotten old fast.

aj.
12-15-2004, 12:34 PM
Why again did they sign Gary Walker to an extension for $11 million??? That was just his signing bonus. It could turn out to be a huge mistake. I thought it then and I think it even more now. He will have to play three more years at a higher level than he is now to meet the value of the contract IMO. That is, if they did a standard proration of his signing bonus for cap purposes.

wags
12-15-2004, 12:35 PM
If we keep getting better maybe next year we can be ranked 29th in defense and have 21 sacks. :slap:

ArlingtonTexan
12-15-2004, 12:37 PM
i was going to start a separate thread but this 3-4 primer fits here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=1946758

El Tejano
12-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Well, if I am not mistaken he has been injured also for sometime and I think he hasn't been the same player since. We might be able to get another year or so out of him where he produces great numbers.

gwallaia
12-15-2004, 01:14 PM
I'm telling you, Marcus Spears, DE from LSU. That's the guy we want in the draft.

rhc564
12-15-2004, 02:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&page=/trend/2004week15

The best quote is... "No one in that front seven scares you. They're really not that athletic, not nearly as versatile as the better (3-4) teams in the league."

Why again did they sign Gary Walker to an extension for $11 million???


Look at the bright side-- all these problems we have now (and yes there
are many) are going to go away because next year is our 4 th year and
a lot of people have promised a winning team, maybe even playoffs.
So, sit back and relax, and watch the magic begin... :jumpbanan

nunusguy
12-15-2004, 03:17 PM
"But the playmakers in the 3-4 defense are the linebackers, especially hybrid defenders on the edge, guys who perhaps were 245-pound ends in college but who can convert to playing in a two-point stance."
OK Len, tell us something we didn't know. We've got a couple young guys (Babin & Peek), who fit that description but they are still adapting to their new positions.
In the meantime, the D played a very good game Sunday. Think how good they would be if we had used the #1 and #3 overall in the 2002 and 2003 college drafts, respectively, on defensive personnel.
Clearly, the offense is more to blame for us not being > 5-8 than the defense.
Here's another ESPN story about the 3-4 (but this time SD), and includes some very glowing remarks about Steve Foley. How did we ever let that guy
slip thru our fingers ?
"Look at Steve Foley," Edwards said. "He's about 270 pounds and he can move. He can get back in coverage when necessary and he can rush the quarterback."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1940744

wags
12-15-2004, 03:25 PM
In the meantime, the D played a very good game Sunday. Think how good they would be if we had used the #1 and #3 overall in the 2002 and 2003 college drafts, respectively, on defensive personnel.
Clearly, the offense is more to blame for us not being > 5-8 than the defense.

Our offense does deserve plenty of the blame, but compare the NFL experience that our offense has to our defense. Our defense should be playing better because we have veterans and former pro bowlers on that side of the ball. 30th ranked defense in the NFL. :bag:

jacquescas
12-15-2004, 04:57 PM
any rookie will still be a couple of years from making an impact, we need a big time free agent and a rookie to groom, our whole front 7 is lacking, Babin and Smith, and Sharper are the only 3 that are worth keeping. Payne should be let go after the season.

infantrycak
12-15-2004, 04:57 PM
OK Len, tell us something we didn't know. We've got a couple young guys (Babin & Peek), who fit that description but they are still adapting to their new positions.
In the meantime, the D played a very good game Sunday.

There is a certain irony to punching the Texans D the week after they limited the Colts to their lowest score of the season.

Saw a good point somewhere today--Scouts, Inc. I believe--that the Texans D isn't as flabby as the stats reflect because of 13 games, 6 have been against the league's top 5 offenses--Indyx2, Denver, Minnesota, Green Bay and Kansas City.

wags
12-15-2004, 05:17 PM
Payne should be let go after the season.

Why? He's our best D-linemen this year. He has more sacks and tackles than Walker and Smith.

Porky
12-15-2004, 06:01 PM
"Houston has surrendered, on average, 13.6 fewer yards per game, but 0.2 more points per outing, than in 2003. The team has 18 sacks, just one shy of its total for the entire 2003 season, but still far less than the gaudy numbers that Capers' defenses once produced, like when the Pittsburgh Steelers collected 55 quarterback kills in 1994 or the Jacksonville Jaguars 57 in 1999."

Considering the injury problems last year, the talent infusion this year, along with another year of experience in this system, those numbers represent a huge disapointment. Let's face it. Walker looks like he is 59, Payne is not the same player he was. Sharper, our best LB is not the beast everyone thinks he is. He is a solid LB, but not a true playmaker in the 3-4. The secondary is the strength of the D imo, but with little in the way of a rush, they will get toasted. I would prefer we scrap the thing now, and build a solid 4-3 from the ground up. I didn't like the 3-4 idea when we started the franchise, and I like it even less now. And yes, I realize that means growing pains. Don't worry, it won't happen anyway. I'm venting. :hairpull:

texansfan88
12-15-2004, 06:10 PM
oh well, good locker room material

P.S. i bet that O-Coordinator was Linehan up in minny

ArlingtonTexan
12-15-2004, 07:04 PM
Between the two articles i got the sense that the 3-4 either works really Ravens, Patriots, chargers, Steelers or not at all Texans, Raiders. The biggest difference is in personnel. In one of the article it was either implied or directly said that with 6 teams running the defense (all AFC ironically) the other teams now see it enough where you just out schemem them. Also, some of the draft advantages will disappear when more teams run the defense.

Cincinnatikid
12-15-2004, 11:22 PM
any rookie will still be a couple of years from making an impact, we need a big time free agent and a rookie to groom, our whole front 7 is lacking, Babin and Smith, and Sharper are the only 3 that are worth keeping. Payne should be let go after the season.

Payne is the best Dline this season, and what about Peek? Why is everyone on this message board so bipolar all the time. One day they hate the team, the next they love it. One day they say peek sucks and cant stop the run, the next day they love how he played and say he should be a starter, then now he shouldnt even be kept on the team? Some of these people on here need to make up their minds. Ridiculous

Cincinnatikid
12-15-2004, 11:30 PM
another thing, the article talks about how none of the linebackers have ever had a 10 or more sack season? well two of our 5 just got into the NFL, babin and peek. And then you have three middle linebackers basically playing in sharper, foreman and wong(who played MLB in minn.) How many middle linebackers really get 10 or more sacks a season? So even though the article points out a truth that not enough sacks are made, it skews what the texans have. Also, it fails to point out all the INTs they have. You can always believe everything that you read and expect it to be completely true.

Wolf
12-16-2004, 12:36 AM
Payne is the best Dline this season, and what about Peek? Why is everyone on this message board so bipolar all the time. One day they hate the team, the next they love it. One day they say peek sucks and cant stop the run, the next day they love how he played and say he should be a starter, then now he shouldnt even be kept on the team? Some of these people on here need to make up their minds. Ridiculous


Don't you know some of us sill need lithium?
:whew

Meloy
12-21-2004, 04:30 PM
"But the playmakers in the 3-4 defense are the linebackers, especially hybrid defenders on the edge, guys who perhaps were 245-pound ends in college but who can convert to playing in a two-point stance."
OK Len, tell us something we didn't know. We've got a couple young guys (Babin & Peek), who fit that description but they are still adapting to their new positions.
In the meantime, the D played a very good game Sunday. Think how good they would be if we had used the #1 and #3 overall in the 2002 and 2003 college drafts, respectively, on defensive personnel.
Clearly, the offense is more to blame for us not being > 5-8 than the defense.
Here's another ESPN story about the 3-4 (but this time SD), and includes some very glowing remarks about Steve Foley. How did we ever let that guy
slip thru our fingers ?
"Look at Steve Foley," Edwards said. "He's about 270 pounds and he can move. He can get back in coverage when necessary and he can rush the quarterback."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1940744
As I remember, Foley jumped at a big ol contract & gave Casserly no chance to meet it. He was good. However, our dline is not suppose to make sacks! a 3-4 is for linebackers to get to QB & occasionally a c/b like Dunte. Walker Payne & Smith are to tie up 4 O linemen & sometimes a TE and a blocking full back! Two have been injured & we still might be 8-8. Most of us would have grabbed that before game 1. I think a first pick will ease the dline some in 05. :bguitar:

jagsfanincanada
12-22-2004, 01:21 PM
There is a certain irony to punching the Texans D the week after they limited the Colts to their lowest score of the season.

Saw a good point somewhere today--Scouts, Inc. I believe--that the Texans D isn't as flabby as the stats reflect because of 13 games, 6 have been against the league's top 5 offenses--Indyx2, Denver, Minnesota, Green Bay and Kansas City.

The Jags played all those teams + San Diego and are ranked 12th.

ArlingtonTexan
12-22-2004, 01:28 PM
The Jags played all those teams + San Diego and are ranked 12th.

Could you let us hang on to our delusion, please? :slap:

fresno8
12-22-2004, 03:10 PM
In the 3-4 you need a dominant 2-gap nose tackle and though Payne may be our best d-lineman this year he's far from dominant. Peek/Babin both need to be on the field at the same time. Wong needs to be moved to the inside whether he likes it or not. We need another MLB to complement Sharper either Wong or through draft/FA.

infantrycak
12-22-2004, 03:18 PM
In the 3-4 you need a dominant 2-gap nose tackle and though Payne may be our best d-lineman this year he's far from dominant.

Cut him a little slack for this season--he is just coming back from three surgeries. He has been steadily improving as the year has gone on. If you want to see a dominant 2-gap NT--look at Payne in the Miami game last year.

jacquescas
12-22-2004, 03:26 PM
point is our front 7 isn't getting the pressure on the QB that they need to. something needs to change.

infantrycak
12-22-2004, 03:36 PM
point is our front 7 isn't getting the pressure on the QB that they need to. something needs to change.

Well it has been getting better the last few games. FYI--Manning has been sacked a total of 9 times this year--3 of those were by the Texans. All the blitzing in the world didn't get the vaunted Ravens D a sack last weekend. Which brings up the last point is that sacks do not adequately measure pressure. The Texans have moved the QB around and hurried them quite a bit this year--they just aren't getting them to the ground. Definitely can be improved upon though. Some improvement should be automatic from Babin and Peek having this year under their belts.

Jwwillis
12-22-2004, 07:00 PM
All this talk about the D-line. Its the O-Line that has been the biggest disappointment this season. The D has regressed since the inagural season and the O-Line has regressed from last season. If we had the 1st years D the 2nd years O-Line and this years backs and receivers we would be going to the playoffs :hmmm:

ArlingtonTexan
12-22-2004, 07:03 PM
All this talk about the D-line. Its the O-Line that has been the biggest disappointment this season. The D has regressed since the inagural season and the O-Line has regressed from last season. If we had the 1st years D the 2nd years O-Line and this years backs and receivers we would be going to the playoffs :hmmm:

The O-line has at least had the nerve to be inconsistent. Teams have pretty much ran on our D-line all year and there has been no pass rush from the front 3.

Jwwillis
12-22-2004, 07:10 PM
Texans D has looked good at times just as the O. They are both woefully inconsistant. However, I would say the Texans have lost more games due to the O's inability to protect the QB than the D's inability to stop the run or pass. The D spends WAY to much time in the field after yet another 3 and out.

There has been NO time to throw downfield.
There has been NO scoring in the red zone.
There has been NO run blocking.
There HAVE been plenty of safetys.
There HAVE been more drive killing penalties.

I expected better from the O after the off season aquisitions. I was more skeptical of the D after Walker and Pane were coming of injuries while still starting 2 rookies.

Oh, and by the way the front 3 are not pass rushers in the 3-4

TexansTrueFan
12-22-2004, 07:35 PM
ok ok now i know we have not had many safties. I only remember 1 and that was the last game ! well one this year !

nunusguy
12-22-2004, 07:53 PM
Its the O-Line that has been the biggest disappointment this season.
Yup, its arguable that last years combination of Pitts & Randall was a better
combination than this years Wade & Wand. This years O-line has had some
good quarters, but they have been so streaky. I dunno, gotta really second
guess the judgement of the coaches on these topics - switching to the zone blocking and going too quickly with Wand. Maybe both will work out eventually, but in the meantime Carr is getting shell shocked and starting to
dance like Sammy Davis Jr.

ArlingtonTexan
12-22-2004, 08:17 PM
Texans D has looked good at times just as the O. They are both woefully inconsistant. However, I would say the Texans have lost more games due to the O's inability to protect the QB than the D's inability to stop the run or pass. The D spends WAY to much time in the field after yet another 3 and out.

There has been NO time to throw downfield.
There has been NO scoring in the red zone.
There has been NO run blocking.
There HAVE been plenty of safetys.
There HAVE been more drive killing penalties.

I expected better from the O after the off season aquisitions. I was more skeptical of the D after Walker and Pane were coming of injuries while still starting 2 rookies.


Oh, and by the way the front 3 are not pass rushers in the 3-4

It is a myth that the D-linemen in 3-4 are not expected to generate pass rush. Their 1st, but not ONLY, duty is to tie upblockers to free the linebackers, next is to stuff the run, and finally create an inside pass rush. they are not the primary pass rushesr, but those 3 guys have to generate some pass rush.

DL leaders from the other 3-4 teams.
Smith-Pittsburg (8.5)
Douglas-Baltimore (5.5)
Seymour-NE(5)
williams-Sd (4)
Payne/Smith -texans (2 each)

No great sack totals but those guys are generate some pass rush.

Also, 4 of the top 6 DLman are FA. The team literally needs bodies. it is a more urgent situation.

Not really wanting to give those guys too much credit, but The Texans have went from like #31 in offense this year to somewhere in the middle of the pack, (think like 14 or 15 in yards and 21 in points). The offense is better in virtuely every category, scoring, 1st downs, time of possession, yards. While the OL is probably what keeps the offense from being better saying that the OL has nothing to do with across the board improvement would be irresponsible.

the texans have actually spent a ton of money in both lines and neither is performing up to the investment that has been made.

infantrycak
12-22-2004, 09:52 PM
To follow up on AT's comments--Gary Walker 2002 6.5 sacks--2004 0.5 sacks. You will not see 13 sacks from a 3-4 DE, but 6 on one side 4 on the other and 8-12 from each OLB is what builds a Capers D. Robaire needs to show he can adapt to the 3-4 and Walker needs to show he deserved his signing bonus next year. JMO, but Payne will be fine at NT.

Jwwillis
12-23-2004, 12:39 AM
ok ok now i know we have not had many safties. I only remember 1 and that was the last game ! well one this year !

Ok Ok so I may have crossed the line on that one. Thought there were at least 2 though :hmmm:

It just that I feel Carrs frustration. He has been silent for 2yrs while getting the **** kicked outa him then things get progressivly worse. Then when he says something he is whining. Im tellin ya it looked like the ol' "Longest Yard" blocking scheme on that safety. Im glad Carr is speaking out. The next drive they started to hold and Carr went to work. Whats up with that?? What? Carr yells a little bit and they decide to block all the sudden?? To me its about heart when that happens.

rittenhouserobz
12-23-2004, 07:00 AM
Its kinda sad to think Millionaires have to be motivated like that. :) All my work does is gives me donuts.

Number19
12-23-2004, 09:34 AM
I'm telling you, Marcus Spears, DE from LSU. That's the guy we want in the draft.
In the early ratings I've seen, Spears is being listed as a top ten talent and will probably be taken before our mid-round draft position.

Ahmad Brooks, ILB, is a third year sophomore and has not declared for the draft, but may be leaning in this direction. If he does declare, he will probably be the first LB taken and is also probabably a top ten pick.

Number19
12-23-2004, 09:41 AM
Why? He's our best D-linemen this year. He has more sacks and tackles than Walker and Smith.
Payne weighs in at only 315 lbs, maybe 15 lbs lighter than ideal for a NT. We could maybe upgrade two positions by drafting a NT and shifting Payne to Walker's DLE position.

Number19
12-23-2004, 09:55 AM
All this talk about the D-line. Its the O-Line that has been the biggest disappointment this season. The D has regressed since the inagural season and the O-Line has regressed from last season. If we had the 1st years D the 2nd years O-Line and this years backs and receivers we would be going to the playoffs :hmmm:
You forget two points : (1) We have new players at three positions, and (2) We changed our blocking scheme.

Realistically, we started back at square one and it will take two full seasons and three training camps before they begin to really master the new blocking.

Mistake? Maybe. But it was a coaching decision we have to live with.

We have four picks in the first three rounds of this next draft. Two of these need to be a Center and a Guard. They probabably will not play much in '05 but may be ready by '06.

wags
12-24-2004, 02:00 AM
Payne weighs in at only 315 lbs, maybe 15 lbs lighter than ideal for a NT. We could maybe upgrade two positions by drafting a NT and shifting Payne to Walker's DLE position.

Name a NT we could draft that would be an upgrade over Payne. I don't think there are any. If we draft a NT it should be in the late rounds as a backup for now.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-24-2004, 02:14 AM
Haloti Ngata

wags
12-24-2004, 02:21 AM
Haloti Ngata

Ngata is coming off a major knee injury just like Payne.

Jwwillis
12-27-2004, 12:11 AM
You forget two points : (1) We have new players at three positions, and (2) We changed our blocking scheme.

Realistically, we started back at square one and it will take two full seasons and three training camps before they begin to really master the new blocking.

Mistake? Maybe. But it was a coaching decision we have to live with.

We have four picks in the first three rounds of this next draft. Two of these need to be a Center and a Guard. They probabably will not play much in '05 but may be ready by '06.

It better not take 2 fulls seasons to start getting Carr protection or someones out of a job. NFL teams make faster transitions than that. I havent forgotten any of the above and I stick to my guns. The Texans showed in the Jags game that the D is NOT the biggest concern with this team. Its the O-line. They bumbled the whole 3rd quarter away and almost the 4th too if not for the ....let me hear it.....D.

Erratic Assassin
12-27-2004, 02:08 AM
It could turn out to be a huge mistake. I thought it then and I think it even more now. He will have to play three more years at a higher level than he is now to meet the value of the contract IMO.

Houston teams (whether it be the Rockets, Astros, or Texans) have a bad habit of paying players based on their past value rather than their future value.

Corrosion
12-27-2004, 09:37 AM
Opponents have failed to score a TD in the last 11 (ELEVEN) Quarters against the Texans woeful D .....3 of those quaters were against Indy .

So much for woeful .... :heh:

TheOgre
12-27-2004, 10:10 AM
With Coleman and Foreman out of the lineup, our defense has actually gotten better. It could be a coincidence but is it?

BornOrange
12-27-2004, 10:17 AM
With Coleman and Foreman out of the lineup, our defense has actually gotten better. It could be a coincidence but is it?
Chicago without Rex Grossman at QB and Jacksonville without Fred Taylor at RB aren't exactly offensive juggernauts.

Jwwillis
01-09-2005, 05:04 PM
The O-line has at least had the nerve to be inconsistent. Teams have pretty much ran on our D-line all year and there has been no pass rush from the front 3.


How you feelin now? :BananaWav

JacksonvilleJaguar4
01-09-2005, 05:17 PM
If the 3-4 dosen't work why don't you switch to another sceme? Like 4-3 or Cover 2, or have you guys already tried that? :hmmm:

Texas_Heat
01-09-2005, 05:21 PM
The Defense has Carried this team all along all of their wins came from the defense.

phan1
01-10-2005, 04:41 PM
I don't think that our Defensive coaches were ready for the new rule changes, which really has resulted in a change of the way the game is played. QBs have been breaking records all over the place this year, and that alone should tell you how the NFL has changed.

When you look at it, we've never been very good at rushing the QB. Even in our rookie season, we were just OK. But what we did have was good run coverage and good pass coverage. Now, pass coverage has gone out the window in today's NFL, and if you want to play good D, you really need to get pressure on the QB. Now, we need linebackers with lots of speed and with the ability to attack from lots of different angles. Peek is probably our quickest linebacker and has got to be in there. If he's bad at run coverage, than put him in the game and let him learn!

I expect Capers, a defensive guy, to get this D together and build some consistency. I've never seen us get burned on 3rd and long like we did this season.