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threetoedpete
06-18-2008, 08:16 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+West/San+Francisco/Features/2008/edholm061808.htm

We might be looking at one of the most impressive lists of names leaving the game this offseason. Brett Favre. Michael Strahan. Warren Sapp. Jonathan Ogden. Steve McNair. Maybe Larry Allen. Is this the greatest outgoing group of players in a single offseason?

First, we must add one more critical name — Bryant Young.

How many guys can you say that about in this generation? Sapp had his down years toward the end. Richard Seymour? Talk to me in five or six years. Kevin Williams might be in that discussion one day, but to play 14 years as Young has done, and at such a high level, is rare.

stingray
06-18-2008, 08:19 AM
Junior Seau might retire this year also. They were talking about it on Sirius NFL Radio that a couple might not get in the first time. I think Favre and Ogden will be a shoe in the first time and Strahan also.

PapaL
06-18-2008, 09:49 AM
I don't see how any of these guys don't get in first ballot they all dominated their positions for the vast majority of their careers. Screw what the committee guidelines, they should all go in 1st ballot.

Brett Favre
Michael Strahan
Warren Sapp
Jonathan Ogden
Steve McNair
Larry Allen
Bryant Young

infantrycak
06-18-2008, 10:09 AM
I don't see Steve McNair as a HOF QB.

PapaL
06-18-2008, 10:17 AM
I don't see Steve McNair as a HOF QB.

Really? Wow. Care to share your view?

HOU-TEX
06-18-2008, 10:36 AM
Really? Wow. Care to share your view?

I think he might eventually get in, but I don't really see him as a first ballot HOFer. Especially in the group he's with. Here are a few to compare him to.

Steve McNair - 174 TD, 119 INT, 31,304 yds, 82.8 Rtg
Dan Marino - 420 TD, 252 INT, 61,361 yds, 86.4 Rtg
Warren Moon - 291 TD, 233 INT, 49,325 yds, 80.9 Rtg
Joe Montana - 273 TD, 139 INT, 40,551 yds, 92.3 Rtg
Boomer Esiason - 247 TD, 184 INT, 37,920 yds, 81.1 Rtg
Troy Aikman - 165 TD, 141 INT, 32,942 yds, 81.6 Rtg

DiehardChris
06-18-2008, 10:53 AM
Steve McNair was a really good QB. A great one at times. He's not a Hall of Fame QB. Not on the first try, not on any try after that. You have to play at a high level for a long time to be a HoF'r. He had a couple of great years, a couple of good ones, and a handful of mediocre and bad ones.

Double Barrel
06-18-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't see Steve McNair as a HOF QB.

Steven McNair should have to wait if they made Art Monk sit out so long, IMO.

I like McNair, but he's not a shoo-in for the HoF.

threetoedpete
06-18-2008, 11:29 AM
I don't see Steve McNair as a HOF QB.

stats wise I agree. However if there is still room for warrior type QBs who refused to let his team lose no matter what the personal sacrifice, he has a shot. He has a co-MVP, and a SB appearance. He has a shot. Bart Star's stats aren't exactly eye popping.

infantrycak
06-18-2008, 11:38 AM
Steve McNair was a really good QB. A great one at times. He's not a Hall of Fame QB. Not on the first try, not on any try after that. You have to play at a high level for a long time to be a HoF'r. He had a couple of great years, a couple of good ones, and a handful of mediocre and bad ones.

That pretty much sums it up.

stats wise I agree. However if there is still room for warrior type QBs who refused to let his team lose no matter what the personal sacrifice, he has a shot. He has a co-MVP, and a SB appearance. He has a shot. Bart Star's stats aren't exactly eye popping.

The warrior image might tip the balance.

HOU-TEX
06-18-2008, 11:39 AM
stats wise I agree. However if there is still room for warrior type QBs who refused to let his team lose no matter what the personal sacrifice, he has a shot. He has a co-MVP, and a SB appearance. He has a shot. Bart Star's stats aren't exactly eye popping.

Neither was Aikmans, but they both won multiple Super Bowls.

If Marino's stats were similar to McNair, Aikman, etc. he wouldn't be in the HOF.

Double Barrel
06-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Terrell Davis has two rings, 1998 NFL MVP, 1997 Super Bowl MVP, NFL Offensive Player of the Year (x2), Pro Bowler (x3), All-Pro selection (x4), and is the Denver Broncos all-time leading rusher, with 7,607 rushing yards (among other honors).

But he's not in the HoF, and many would argue that he might never be in.

If Davis, with everything he accomplished, cannot make it, I don't really see a good argument for McNair at this point. Lots of football players are 'warrior-types', but that's the nature of the sport.

Texan_Bill
06-18-2008, 12:38 PM
Terrell Davis has two rings, 1998 NFL MVP, 1997 Super Bowl MVP, NFL Offensive Player of the Year (x2), Pro Bowler (x3), All-Pro selection (x4), and is the Denver Broncos all-time leading rusher, with 7,607 rushing yards (among other honors).

But he's not in the HoF, and many would argue that he might never be in.

If Davis, with everything he accomplished, cannot make it, I don't really see a good argument for McNair at this point. Lots of football players are 'warrior-types', but that's the nature of the sport.

Problem with Davis was that he accomplished 6,413 yards in his first 4 seasons. The last four seasons of his career he only rushed for 1,194. He only played in 17 games in his final four seasons and actually never played that final season of his career.

Some might liken that to the proverbial "flash in a pan".

eriadoc
06-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Problem with Davis was that he accomplished 6,413 yards in his first 4 seasons. The last four seasons of his career he only rushed for 1,194. He only played in 17 games in his final four seasons and actually never played that final season of his career.

Some might liken that to the proverbial "flash in a pan".

2001, 2002, and 2003 were good years for McNair. They weren't great years, compared to what other QBs have done statistically or with regard to team acclaim. After those three, give me a fourth year that puts McNair in the company of Terrell Davis, or any other flash in the pan. 2005, maybe? He threw for 3161 yards, 16 TDs, and 11 INTs. Statistically, nothing there makes you say "Wow". What did the Titans do in 2005? Nothing that is going to make McNair's career stand out. His career rating of 82.x is nothing to get excited about, either.

Does anyone think of Jeff Garcia as a HOF QB? Here's a basic comparison between the two, just to get you thinking:

McNair
Games: 161
Career PaYd: 31304
PaYd per game: 194.4
Comp %: 60.1
Career YPA: 6.9
Career YPC: 11.5
Career PaTD: 174
Career INT: 119
Career Fumbles: 99
Career Fumbles Lost: 43
Career RuYd: 3590
Career RuTD: 37
Career Rating: 82.8

Garcia
Games: 112
Career PaYd: 22825
PaYd per game: 203.8
Comp %: 61.2
Career YPA: 6.9
Career YPC: 11.3
Career PaTD:149
Career INT:77
Career Fumbles: 52
Career Fumbles Lost: 21
Career RuYd: 1994
Career RuTD: 25
Career Rating: 87.2

Based on statistics, Garcia has as much a shot at the HOF as McNair (which is none, IMO, much less first-ballot). Furthermore, Garcia's best four years are at least the equal of McNair's best four, and you could argue they're superior to McNair's. However, stats don't tell the whole story. This is a team sport, so looking at what McNair's teams accomplished vs. Garcia's should add to the discussion. However, beyond a few memorable playoff games here and there, neither have had their teams win anything of note. Sure, McNair had a SB appearance, but HOF careers are not made on appearances, unless you have a ton of stats to back it up. McNair clearly does not have that.

As I said above - not only is McNair not a first ballot HOF'er, but he's not even a HOF'er. Of course, they gave Al Gore a friggin' Nobel Prize, so I guess anything can happen.

PapaL
06-18-2008, 01:19 PM
After going over everyone's stats - I would like to change my view from 1st ballot to eventual HoF. The guy put TEN on the map as a contender every year. He had to be game planned for. Don't underestimate that heart of a warrior angle. His stats do not reflect his value to his team, city and even the league to an extent. Then again, this is on my view.

Speedy
06-18-2008, 01:28 PM
I don't see Steve McNair as a HOF QB.


I'd definitely say he's "questionable".



.

Double Barrel
06-18-2008, 01:32 PM
Problem with Davis was that he accomplished 6,413 yards in his first 4 seasons. The last four seasons of his career he only rushed for 1,194. He only played in 17 games in his final four seasons and actually never played that final season of his career.

Some might liken that to the proverbial "flash in a pan".

Gayle Sayers only played 7 years, too. He was only great in four and a half of those years, same as TD. Both had their careers ended because of injuries. Nobody considers Sayers a 'flash in the pan'.

Sayers - 4,956 total yards.
Davis - 7,607 total yards.

TD has pedigree. He earned some high accolades and was surely as much of those two Denver championships as Elway was (John even said as much). The 6,413 yards he gained during his first four seasons were the second highest four-year total in league history. He is one of only four players to gain 2,000 yards in a season. The other three -- Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson -- are either in the Hall of Fame or will be.

'Flash in the pan'? Horse crap to those people that perpetuate such nonsense.

I don't think McNair should get in just because he hung tough for more years. This "warrior" stuff is overrated. Please save that tag for soldiers putting their lives in harms way every day. It diminishes the term when we throw it around for sports figures, who are elite athletes to be sure, but they are just entertainers at the end of the day.

HOU-TEX
06-18-2008, 01:41 PM
It appears there's an arguement for practically every player that shouls or should've been inducted. As well as some that already are inducted.

I guess it all boils down to asshats like McClain who are on the Selection Commitee. I mean, how else can you explain situations like Monk's? Or Irvin (I know, I know) for that matter?

BTW, TD was a product of "The System". :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
06-18-2008, 02:11 PM
BTW, TD was a product of "The System". :rolleyes:

Players make systems work, not the other way around. ;)

dc_txtech
06-18-2008, 02:30 PM
Gayle Sayers only played 7 years, too. He was only great in four and a half of those years, same as TD. Both had their careers ended because of injuries. Nobody considers Sayers a 'flash in the pan'.

Sayers - 4,956 total yards.
Davis - 7,607 total yards.

TD has pedigree. He earned some high accolades and was surely as much of those two Denver championships as Elway was (John even said as much). The 6,413 yards he gained during his first four seasons were the second highest four-year total in league history. He is one of only four players to gain 2,000 yards in a season. The other three -- Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson -- are either in the Hall of Fame or will be.

Didn't Jamal Lewis break 2000 a few years back?

infantrycak
06-18-2008, 02:32 PM
Didn't Jamal Lewis break 2000 a few years back?

2066 yds in 2003.

ChampionTexan
06-18-2008, 02:34 PM
Players make systems work, not the other way around. ;)

I totally concur. Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell and Mike Bell were system backs. Terrell and to a slightly lesser extent Portis were special and would have excelled in most any system.

HOU-TEX
06-18-2008, 02:37 PM
Players make systems work, not the other way around. ;)

I know, I'z being a little sarcastic. I had the little rolleyes smiley there. :)

I really like TD. In addition to the fact he was an awesome RB, he's also a very intelligent person.

infantrycak
06-18-2008, 02:37 PM
Terrell and to a slightly lesser extent Portis were special and would have excelled in most any system.

Portis is a good RB but he sure has looked less special outside of Denver. He averaged 5.5 ypc during his time in Denver and has averaged 4.0 ypc in the four years in Washington. He had 24 20+ yd runs and 9 40+ runs in 2 years in Denver and just 17 20+ runs and 3 of 40+ in 4 years in Washington.

Texan_Bill
06-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Gayle Sayers only played 7 years, too. He was only great in four and a half of those years, same as TD. Both had their careers ended because of injuries. Nobody considers Sayers a 'flash in the pan'.

Sayers - 4,956 total yards.
Davis - 7,607 total yards.

TD has pedigree. He earned some high accolades and was surely as much of those two Denver championships as Elway was (John even said as much). The 6,413 yards he gained during his first four seasons were the second highest four-year total in league history. He is one of only four players to gain 2,000 yards in a season. The other three -- Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson -- are either in the Hall of Fame or will be.

'Flash in the pan'? Horse crap to those people that perpetuate such nonsense.

I don't think McNair should get in just because he hung tough for more years. This "warrior" stuff is overrated. Please save that tag for soldiers putting their lives in harms way every day. It diminishes the term when we throw it around for sports figures, who are elite athletes to be sure, but they are just entertainers at the end of the day.

That's true. Good comparison to Sayers.

Kind of bad route for me to take when I used to defend Earl in the same way. People talked about a short career and the fact that his last season and a half weren't very productive.

Another reason that I think TD may get overlooked though, is that Denver had been able to plug in 1,000 yard rusher after 1,000 yard rusher. (Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, etc.). Fair to overlook him because of those other guys, no. But that's probably what happens...

ChampionTexan
06-18-2008, 02:58 PM
Portis is a good RB but he sure has looked less special outside of Denver. He averaged 5.5 ypc during his time in Denver and has averaged 4.0 ypc in the four years in Washington. He had 24 20+ yd runs and 9 40+ runs in 2 years in Denver and just 17 20+ runs and 3 of 40+ in 4 years in Washington.

Agreed - perhaps I should have just said that Portis is the only other back to have any sort of prolonged success in another system (Well, except Ron Dayne of course).

:sarcasm: (On the Dayne part)

Double Barrel
06-18-2008, 02:59 PM
Didn't Jamal Lewis break 2000 a few years back?

Good catch. I knew there was another one, too!

I know, I'z being a little sarcastic. I had the little rolleyes smiley there. :)

yep, I know. That's why I added the winky smiley at the end of my reply. :thumbup

That's true. Good comparison to Sayers.

Kind of bad route for me to take when I used to defend Earl in the same way. People talked about a short career and the fact that his last season and a half weren't very productive.

Another reason that I think TD may get overlooked though, is that Denver had been able to plug in 1,000 yard rusher after 1,000 yard rusher. (Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, etc.). Fair to overlook him because of those other guys, no. But that's probably what happens...

No doubt, man. The average career of an NFL back is 2.6 years and falling, according to the National Football League Players' Association. So obviously it's a position that has to be judged by different standards.

Personally, I think career stats are often weighed too heavy in the equation. The impact on the game during the time they played is what I would consider, and then put in perspective with the entire career.

Texan_Bill
06-18-2008, 03:20 PM
Personally, I think career stats are often weighed too heavy in the equation. The impact on the game during the time they played is what I would consider, and then put in perspective with the entire career.

Agreed!!!

That's why I have a hard time putting McNair in the HOF. It has nothing to do with his numbers or how tough the guy was. It's more like; "Does Steve McNair conjure up greatness?" In my case, I say no, but also recognize that he did have a damn fine career.

Honoring Earl 34
06-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Brett Favre ... No doubter if he stays retired .

Michael Strahan ... I think he'll make it fairly easy .

Warren Sapp ... dominant player for years also a popular guy .

Jonathan Ogden ... went to 11 pro bowls I ... think .

Larry Allen ... as much as I hate the Cowboys ... Larry Allen was great .

All these guys were better than McNair and they've all won a Super Bowl .

TEXANRED
06-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Brett Favre ... No doubter if he stays retired .

Michael Strahan ... I think he'll make it fairly easy .

Warren Sapp ... dominant player for years also a popular guy .

Jonathan Ogden ... went to 11 pro bowls I ... think .

Larry Allen ... as much as I hate the Cowboys ... Larry Allen was great .

All these guys were better than McNair and they've all won a Super Bowl .

I have to agree with this. But I don't see Sapp making it first ballot.

As far as McNair goes with having smallish stats like he has and no rings its going to be tough. Especialy being associated with coming up one yard short of winning a super bowl.

Heck it took Moon forever to get into the Pro Football Hall of fame and he won 3 Gray cups and threw a bazillion yards.

Texecutioner
06-18-2008, 06:18 PM
Brett Favre ... No doubter if he stays retired .

Michael Strahan ... I think he'll make it fairly easy .

Warren Sapp ... dominant player for years also a popular guy .

Jonathan Ogden ... went to 11 pro bowls I ... think .

Larry Allen ... as much as I hate the Cowboys ... Larry Allen was great .

All these guys were better than McNair and they've all won a Super Bowl .

I'd have to agree here. Mcnair might make it one day, but these other guys will go before him. Mcnair is more of a Hall of VERY GOOD, rather than HOF. He might still get in at some point though.

Blazing Arrow
06-18-2008, 07:01 PM
If McNair had not cracked his sternum he would probably go. Obviously I am a fan but there is no way he makes first ballot. You also need to look at his running ability and the 1st downs he produced with his feet. It might also be put in the mix that he really never had an elite WR playing with him. Mason is good but he is not elite. Most of your star HoF QBs are supported by a HoF/great WRs.

Goldensilence
06-18-2008, 07:04 PM
That's true. Good comparison to Sayers.

Kind of bad route for me to take when I used to defend Earl in the same way. People talked about a short career and the fact that his last season and a half weren't very productive.

Another reason that I think TD may get overlooked though, is that Denver had been able to plug in 1,000 yard rusher after 1,000 yard rusher. (Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, etc.). Fair to overlook him because of those other guys, no. But that's probably what happens...

Not talking at you personally Bill but those who want to asterisk TD's career by pointing out whom else after him got 1000 yards rushing(which I don't think is an elite year mark anymore) how come they didn't get past or even get closer to 2000 yards?

For McNair...good QB I just don't think he gets in.

Blazing Arrow
06-18-2008, 07:07 PM
Doesn't TD have an issue with eligibility? I thought there was a rule about having to play a certain number of seasons to be considered?

AnthonyE
06-18-2008, 07:12 PM
Doesn't TD have an issue with eligibility? I thought there was a rule about having to play a certain number of seasons to be considered?

TD played the same number of seasons as Earl Campbell. So if there is a rule about number of seasons played, it doesn't apply to TD.