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View Full Version : why is Fangio the "golden boy" and Palmer the "Goat"?


Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:12 AM
I continue to not understand the logic of people on here. Fire Palmer after every loss. we win and nothing said.

1st Offense
Far from perfect. But has had major setbacks since the expansion draft (boselli never worked and Young flopped). There were our bookends on the line.. We draft a QB and put him in the fire the 1st year and he got manhandled. Playcalling was vanilla and was to protect him from getting hurt. 2nd year we get 2 new starters (AJ and DD) and a 3rd that never materialized (Joppru injury). Offense improved but not much. This season we changed blocking schemes (I don't know why at this point) added a new LT and offense is in the middle of the pack.. but redzone offense stinks and we don't have a complete TE still and a RB that is basically a solid player but not a "triplet" like everyone thinks. Offense still needs LOTS of work and more complete weapons

defense.
since day one we have had 2 probowlers (walker and glenn), another 2 that should have been probowlers in 2004 (sharper and Coleman). We get everyone back healthy and yet can't stop anyone on 3rd downs and defense is hovering in the back of the NFL. yet no complaints. BTW we have 18 sacks now only the raiders have less (17) and the lowly colts defense is #2 with 41

maybe I am just unrealistic and expect more from our defense being they are the veterans and the steady group out there, but I am sick of the 3rd and longs that we can't stop for some reason or another, yet the defense is the ones making the noise about "changes" ... Stop someone on third down if you want to change something.

Harry Biped
12-14-2004, 01:21 AM
Because since their inception, the Texans have not had one single game that the offense was effective or productive the whole game. The defense runs hot and cold, but usually does their part. A big part of the reason that the defense is ranked so low is because the offense can't/won't keep them off the field. 3 and outs are all too common under Palmer's philosophy. A tired defense is an ineffective defense. Not to mention all of the times that the defense has come thru with a big turnover or really good field position only to have the offense do absolutely nothing with it. The only consistency the offensive has really had is getting the punter lots of punts.

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:23 AM
is that palmers fault?
2002 Carr,Gaffney,Wells (err james allen), miller was the weapons?

with a Pitts at LT as a rookie?

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:25 AM
my point is that the offense hasn't had solid players on the field (except AJ) compared to the defense.. but the issue of firing the OC comes up all the time

Hervoyel
12-14-2004, 01:28 AM
I think it's probably just that we've watched the defense be put in one jam after another by the offense. In 2002 the defense kept this team in so many games while the offense was just plain inept. In one game the defense flat out did it all that year. In the second season we saw so many guys on the defense go down while the offense reigned it in and played a frustrating to watch (but necessary at the time) conservative as all hell style of football. The offense wasn't very good last season and so they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. If they played it conservative they were going to stall often and put the defense back on the field. If they went buck wild and started throwing the ball like a lot of people wanted they were going to get Carr killed and then stall, again putting the depleted defense back on the field.

They chose the one that had the best chance of working (conservative) and not getting the QB killed and then what do you know, he got killed anyway. Then Banks got his hand broken and Ragone got mauled. It was just ugly. It looked bad and it added fuel to the fire. Fans wanted to see the new monster reciever go be Randy Moss right out of the gate and they were much more likely to show the defense sympathy for it's injuries after they played so well in 2002.

Now we're in 2004 and the defense is starting some rookies and incorporating some new guys in new spots (for them) and people are giving them more slack (generally). It doesn't help that when the defense does show up the offense takes a day off (or at least a half off).

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:28 AM
Cause Palmer sucks and Faggio is decent durrrrrrrr... uhhhhh....duhhhh

Let me explain to you folks who don't have a degree from MIT.

Carr has the audible skills of a retarded monkey! Even if Carr is indeed a retarded monkey, Palmer is still resposible of teaching a retarded monkey to call the proper plays. The fact that Carr still calls retarded audibles after 3 years, is a sign that we have a retarded OC. OR we could have a retarded OC and a retarded QB. Either way we need to get rid of the retard(s)!


Or may be... "Bottle-O-Bud is retarded"..... I saw that comming a mile a way smart alex! Yeah yeah yeah..... "you said that I didn't". Got you again.. PREDICTABLE!!!

fangio is ok . Palmer stinks ..yet our defense is ranked pretty low .. hmm
fangio has skilled players to work with compared to our offense hmm

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:31 AM
I think it's probably just that we've watched the defense be put in one jam after another by the offense. In 2002 the defense kept this team in so many games while the offense was just plain inept. In one game the defense flat out did it all that year. In the second season we saw so many guys on the defense go down while the offense reigned it in and played a frustrating to watch (but necessary at the time) conservative as all hell style of football. The offense wasn't very good last season and so they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. If they played it conservative they were going to stall often and put the defense back on the field. If they went buck wild and started throwing the ball like a lot of people wanted they were going to get Carr killed and then stall, again putting the depleted defense back on the field.

They chose the one that had the best chance of working (conservative) and not getting the QB killed and then what do you know, he got killed anyway. Then Banks got his hand broken and Ragone got mauled. It was just ugly. It looked bad and it added fuel to the fire. Fans wanted to see the new monster reciever go be Randy Moss right out of the gate and they were much more likely to show the defense sympathy for it's injuries after they played so well in 2002.

Now we're in 2004 and the defense is starting some rookies and incorporating some new guys in new spots (for them) and people are giving them more slack (generally). It doesn't help that when the defense does show up the offense takes a day off (or at least a half off).


I agree, but when it came to the offense.. no slack was given in the 1st few years.. and if any complaint I had about the offense is that it seems at times Carr can't read a defense.
and yes that part would be coaching..

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:33 AM
Our defense doesn't do it's part to get off the field.. Payne,Walker,smith aren't rookies and do have talent (at least their contract says so) and we can't get a pass rush or stop people on 3rd down..

Harry Biped
12-14-2004, 01:40 AM
The offense has some issues with talent, but not to the degree that the defense does, especially in the secondary. When the Texans win games or are in close games it is almost always because the defense played a very solid game. It is the job of the Coordinators to get whatever talent they have to be at the least effective. The Texans offense still makes 1st year mistakes all of the time here towards the end of the 3rd year. Who's to blame for the offense not being prepared? Easy answer, Palmer.

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:51 AM
and fangio should be blamed for our mistakes.. i.e 3rd down conversion and sacks.

we dont' get pressure on the qb and yet we have expensive guys on the line

Wolf
12-14-2004, 01:56 AM
I personally feel we have more playmakers on defense than offense and yet our defense doesn't live up to expectations.. (I expect more from the offense,but they dont' have the weapons)

OzzO
12-14-2004, 09:14 AM
Houston is ranked 16th overall in defense (yards) 7th overall in % 3rd down made... unless I'm totally reading it wrong - which is possible.

nfl stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2002/regular?sort_col_1=4)

29th in passing completion %, 17th in yards per run, 13th in avg .points per game....


So, that's probably one reason fans feel it's Palmer season and not Fangio season. </Elmer Fudd voice> :heh:

TheOgre
12-14-2004, 09:29 AM
Here are the simple stats:

13th Offense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ypg&pos=off&league=nfl&order=true&season=2&year=2004
29th Defense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?sort=ypg&stat=team&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2004

Now if you look at scoring O and D:
21st Scoring Offense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=off&league=nfl&season=2&year=2004
29th Scoring Defense
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?sort=ypg&stat=team&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2004

We clearly need to finish drives better offensively, but we need to get better overall defensively.

infantrycak
12-14-2004, 09:29 AM
Houston is ranked 16th overall in defense (yards) 7th overall in % 3rd down made... unless I'm totally reading it wrong - which is possible.

nfl stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2002/regular?sort_col_1=4)

29th in passing completion %, 17th in yards per run, 13th in avg .points per game....


So, that's probably one reason fans feel it's Palmer season and not Fangio season. </Elmer Fudd voice> :heh:

You are looking at the 2002 defense.

Here is 2004 (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4)

edo783
12-14-2004, 11:09 AM
IMO, Wolf has a very good point. The defense SHOULD be a much more solid unit at this point in time than the offense. More experienced quality players and it is easier/quicker to have a defense come together than an offense and yet they are not very good. I believe it was Vinny that mentioned that Fangio has been critisized before for using a passive and very complex scheme. I think we are WAY to passive on defense and need to start making things happen (sort of like this last Sunday) and stop trying to just react to what the offense is doing.

Porky
12-14-2004, 11:40 AM
I'll just ask one simple question that in a small way sums up some of my problems with the Capers/Palmer offense.

Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?

TexansTrueFan
12-14-2004, 11:51 AM
if theres one thing i can say thats good about this years D, is the arrival of Robinson, Babin, and Earl ! Now that dont look like a very shabby future on D to me, does it ???? And well the O has taken a big step back from the first part of the season ! And well about the coaches "No comment" !!!

Harry Biped
12-14-2004, 11:57 AM
Though the haven't played great this year, you can see the D, especially the younger guys, really starting to come around. They do need to force more turnovers, though. The offense seems to be stuck in one spot. There is too much talent on the offense to not be able to generate something. It just doesn't seem like there is ever a cohesive or complete game plan from Palmer.

Wolf
12-14-2004, 11:58 AM
I'll just ask one simple question that in a small way sums up some of my problems with the Capers/Palmer offense.

Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?

Agreed, yet. Minnesota's backs can break a long one and Carr is no Dante.. Dante can move.

One thing about Dante...He knows where he is going a lot quicker than Carr does.. He reads through his progressions a lot faster than Carr (and I am talking about when our OL does give Carr time).and when Daunte runs he runs with a purpose.. Carr seems to hesitate a looks downfield(which isn't a bad thing) but seems at times if Carr just ran he would pick up yards.

Vinny
12-14-2004, 12:08 PM
Do you think Mike Tice would make Randy Moss virtually not part of the game plan because the defense was running a cover 2?We call deep patterns, we send aj out. We send Gaffney out. We send them deep, short, and long. Choosing the WR to throw to falls on the quarterback. When you lock on to your first option then go right to your safety valve you will have an offense that looks much like ours.

Porky
12-14-2004, 01:56 PM
We call deep patterns, we send aj out. We send Gaffney out. We send them deep, short, and long. Choosing the WR to throw to falls on the quarterback. When you lock on to your first option then go right to your safety valve you will have an offense that looks much like ours.


First off, wouldn't AJ be the first option a good portion of the time? Secondly, Derrick Armstrong was inactive and instead we had the unstoppable Matt Murphy active. What does that tell you about the game plan? The QB's job is to execute the game plan given to him. Lastly, Capers specifically said on channel 13 (according to people I know who saw it) that Carr executed the game plan exaclty how it was drawn up. Carr is certainly not blameless and he definetely checks down from #1 to last resort quickly, but the coaches are ultimately responsible, just like a manager is responsible for "coaching" his or her employee's.

Hervoyel
12-14-2004, 01:59 PM
Matt Murphy's unstoppable? Damn! We should have been using him since opening day!

Damn that Chris Palmer! What could he have been thinking? Damn him!

:)

Vinny
12-14-2004, 02:02 PM
First off, wouldn't AJ be the first option a good portion of the time? Sure, when he is covered Carr checks straight down to Dom. Just like he went straight down to Miller his first year. Have you not noticed that teams play us this way for a reason? We will get tons of yards but we don't score. 14 points a game doesn't get it, but everyone points to yards as if they were the same as TD's. If you take away AJ you take away our offense because all we do is dump it to our safety valve.

Secondly, Derrick Armstrong was inactive and instead we had the unstoppable Matt Murphy active. What does that tell you about the game plan? It tells me that we don't look at options 2 and 3 enough. Why have them in the game if we don't look at them?

The QB's job is to execute the game plan given to him. Lastly, Capers specifically said on channel 13 (according to people I know who saw it) that Carr executed the game plan exaclty how it was drawn up. Carr is certainly not blameless and he definetely checks down from #1 to last resort quickly, but the coaches are ultimately responsible, just like a manager is responsible for "coaching" his or her employee's.If the coaches don't trust Carr to throw into coverage that tells me a lot about what they think of his ability to win those battles.

Porky
12-14-2004, 02:03 PM
Matt Murphy's unstoppable? Damn! We should have been using him since opening day!

Damn that Chris Palmer! What could he have been thinking? Damn him!

:)


lol: :bowdown:

Hervoyel
12-14-2004, 02:08 PM
It tells me that we don't look at options 2 and 3 enough. Why have them in the game if we don't look at them?

Man that's got me wondering. Maybe next up against the Bears we could sign another TE or two and just not bother with the wideouts. Seriously, we can sign some big ol' no catching TE's and then "four yard's and a cloud of dust" the rest of the day. From time to time Davis could slip out and catch a dink pass but mostly it would just be Davis left and Davis right. No point in Davis up the middle obviously what with McKinney and all.

There's your way to beat the Cover 2.

Vinny
12-14-2004, 02:10 PM
Everyone else can throw on the cover 2 but us. Indy is one of the worst in the league.

Chance_C
12-14-2004, 02:39 PM
It tells me that we don't look at options 2 and 3 enough. Why have them in the game if we don't look at them?

It was because of the fact that we went into the game with a ball control game plan. Run the ball. What I want to see is some progression towards beating the cover 2. We can run the ball all day and pile up the yards, but if we can't put points on the board we won't win. Derrick Armstrong is a valuable receiver, and him being inactive didn't make sense to me. Wasn't there someone else that could have been inactive, thus allowing him and Murphy in the game?

Vinny
12-14-2004, 03:00 PM
Armstrong is averaging one catch a game the last 4 games. It's not like we deactivated a guy we are overworking.

Chance_C
12-14-2004, 03:06 PM
And just exactly who's fault is that? He is another valuable receiver who makes plays. If he's in there, it gives the defense someone to worry about. Armstrong should be more of a part of our game plan.

Vinny
12-14-2004, 03:23 PM
I only see one man throwing the ball on game day.

Chance_C
12-14-2004, 03:24 PM
Armstrong is averaging one catch a game the last 4 games.

and Gaffney has averaged .5 catches over the last 4 games. 0 against Green Bay, 0 against Tennesee, 2 against NY, and 0 against Indy. Hell we should deactivate him too. And Bradford, and Miller....

Vinny
12-14-2004, 03:29 PM
That falls on Carr. He has not demonstrated any consistancy finding anything but his first and last options in three years of play.

Chance_C
12-14-2004, 03:38 PM
I agree with that but it's hard to go through a complete progression of your options when you have approximately 2 seconds to get rid of the ball, and on top of that they are covered. Look at the games where Carr has had the time and he spread the ball around pretty good. Bottom line is that when the o-line protects Carr, he does a pretty good job. I mean, I can't dig a ditch with a broke shovel, or hammer a nail with a broke hammer, and a pro QB sure as hell can't spread the ball around if he is on his backside more often than not.

gcolby
12-14-2004, 03:57 PM
Well, for what it's worth, my opinion is that Palmer needs to go.
:twocents:

Vinny
12-14-2004, 04:16 PM
Well, for what it's worth, my opinion is that Palmer needs to go.
:twocents:Under Palmer, Tim Couch had better numbers than Carr did in their first year. Under Palmer, Mark Brunell had the best years of his career. Under Palmer, Drew Bledsoe had his best career years also.

How did Palmer all of a sudden become a bad coach?

pek281
12-14-2004, 04:22 PM
Under Palmer, Tim Couch had better numbers than Carr did in their first year. Under Palmer, Mark Brunell had the best years of his career. Under Palmer, Drew Bledsoe had his best career years also.

How did Palmer all of a sudden become a bad coach?


I think it's largely due to the philosophy of Capers. While Palmer is an offensive-minded risk taker, he's gotta play by Capers' rules... Defense will take you to the playoffs, as long as you don't turn the ball over on Offense.

BigWig
12-14-2004, 06:36 PM
How bout this?
1. Have Dom be def. coord.
2. Hire new head coach, not sure who?
3. Keep Palmer one more year
4. Try 4 wideouts more often, so Armstrong ( Spiderman) can catch more balls cause he dont drop em much!
5. Have Carr work with the 8 ft ladders again so he doesnt sidearm like he is now
6. Have a gr8 draft
7. Have a 10 win season next year

Thats my 7 step program, better go get a beer now!@ :bguitar:

SESupergenius
12-14-2004, 07:00 PM
Vinny is making some good points. but Carr looks like a deer in headlights from the beating he has been taking sor far. Wand just look horrible in pass protection. What confidence can you gain in having that guy protecting you? Carr found Gaffney earlier this year what has changed? Dominick Davis and the safety valve. Carr (PAlmer) puts too much emphasis in checking down to him. How many times over have we seen a 3rd and long and Carr passes short to Davis? that is what the play calls for. Why Davis even an option on that type of play?? I heard all the ramblings about throw the ball to AJ more and now Carr is looking to him too much, its him or Davis, Davis or AJ, everyone else is holding their pee-pees in their hand,