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J-Russ
06-12-2008, 03:31 PM
Sage Rosenfels' bio on the Houston Texans' Web site describes him as a "valuable backup quarterback with the ability to start in the NFL."

Those are nice words, but the former Iowa State quarterback from Maquoketa would like to see them read "valuable starter."

"I understand Matt's the starter," Rosenfels said last week in a telephone interview. "But I feel I'm in my prime."

Then it's back to living the life of an NFL player, back to practice, back to being a backup.

"Last year made me want to play more and more," he said. "Now, I feel, I'm closer than I've ever been."

All he wants is a chance.

http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080607/SPORTS/611759381

Drew_Smoke
06-12-2008, 03:37 PM
As a QB on your team, you want him to have that kind of fire/desire. Being happy as a backup would be sad.

But..Sage has had opps and he ended up here. He won't be a distraction. We all wanna win.

DiehardChris
06-12-2008, 03:39 PM
Yeah, the only guy ever I can think of that talked about how he was looking forward to being a backup is... well, I think you know who that is.

Mr PC
06-12-2008, 03:41 PM
I think Sage would make for a serviceable starter. He did very well for us last year and Im glad he is still here. I dont feel we are in any way obligated to trade him so that he can be a starting QB. He signed the contract, he is ours. If (god forbid) Matt gets injured or gets in a terrible slump, Sage can step in and lead the offense with confidence. Otherwise he will be a backup. Sorry Sage, love you buddy but thats the way it is.

TEXANS84
06-12-2008, 03:43 PM
I'm sorry, but Sage is the better quarterback. Sage also tastes good on everything, including spicy foods.

Lucky
06-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Sage also tastes good on everything, including spicy foods.
If I'm not mistaken, Schaub is German for "I got your spicy right here, buddy!"

SOLIS
06-12-2008, 04:02 PM
Nice find. The first time I ever considered Sage as a potential starter was when he threw for three TDs in place of a benched Carr (2006 game at Tennessee). And had it not been for Pac Man making it rain on Sage's parade, we would have been sitting at a managable 3-4 instead of a pitiful 2-5.

It makes you wonder what would have been if we would have kept Carr on the bench for the rest of the season.

threetoedpete
06-12-2008, 04:14 PM
I'm shocked, shocked...that Sage isn't satisfied at being our number two for perpetuity.

BornOrange
06-12-2008, 04:21 PM
Sage is the perfect fit as a backup QB. He wants to start, knows he has the ability to start, prepares to start, but won't be a poison in the locker room if he doesn't start. When he has the chance to play, his teammates trust him and the team won't fall apart when he's in there.

If the situation were reversed, Schaub would be the same way.

You have to like having a team full of competitors who still put the team first. Just like Salaam being upset that Duane Brown was working with the first team all through OTA's. Salaam felt it should have been him, but he still helped Brown learn the position even though it ultimately means that Brown takes his job.

GP
06-12-2008, 04:31 PM
I've been pegged as a Sage apologist, and I haven't posted on this in probably two or three months.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about WHICH guy is better/best...I think you have to be honest with yourself and at least prepare yourself for the big hit that Schaub is probably going to take (at some point), and then what do you think is going to happen?

Sage is going to run the offense. And technically, he'll probably start a game or two in Matt's absence. But with the shoulder injury Matt had...and the types of defenses we face in Indy-Jax-Tenn (twice for each team), not to mention the Steelers and the Ravens, I just think Sage is going to find himself on the field at some point.

So there's no need for him to get anxious about "if" he'll be starter; it's more of a "when" situation. Yet I bet he'd like to go into a season with the tag of being named the starter (which is proably what he's referrig to). I have ZERO faith that Schaub can last the season. It's not a deal of me being a hater. It's a deal of probabilities. And, to the credit of a lot of posters here: Sage HAS had his chances and he's a hit or miss guy. I won't argue it.

J-Russ
06-12-2008, 04:48 PM
I'm shocked, shocked...that Sage isn't satisfied at being our number two for perpetuity.

wth? Who would? If they knew they had the ability to be a capable starter in the league, and shown it the past season, of course they wouldn't be satisfy going back to being #2 the next season. Not to mention there's teams out there that wanted him and is in need of a starting QB. Like the article said, he feels like he's entering his prime and he still stuck as #2 QB to his team. I don't know about youl guys but I feel bad for him, but then again its only for one more season.

PapaL
06-12-2008, 05:07 PM
I'm sorry, but Sage is the better quarterback. Sage also tastes good on everything, including spicy foods.

Have you tried Schaub on anything? If not, how can you compare? If so, we really don't want to know the details.

barrett
06-12-2008, 05:13 PM
god, how many more days until training camp?

kiwitexansfan
06-12-2008, 05:29 PM
wth? Who would? If they knew they had the ability to be a capable starter in the league, and shown it the past season, of course they wouldn't be satisfy going back to being #2 the next season. Not to mention there's teams out there that wanted him and is in need of a starting QB. Like the article said, he feels like he's entering his prime and he still stuck as #2 QB to his team. I don't know about youl guys but I feel bad for him, but then again its only for one more season.

TTP I think you need to use this..... :sarcasm:

I'm glad he has the competitive fire and I'm glad this wasn't in the light of "I want to start, trade me now".

Sage can run this offense well, I think he proved this, but I think he makes too many mistakes and that Schaub's ceiling is higher.

J-Russ
06-12-2008, 05:33 PM
TTP I think you need to use this..... :sarcasm:

I'm glad he has the competitive fire and I'm glad this wasn't in the light of "I want to start, trade me now".

Sage can run this offense well, I think he proved this, but I think he makes too many mistakes and that Schaub's ceiling is higher.

Well of course he was kidding. Any person with a ounce of humor would've know he was jking. I was just putting down how I felt about the situation.

Texanmike02
06-12-2008, 11:15 PM
Nice find. The first time I ever considered Sage as a potential starter was when he threw for three TDs in place of a benched Carr (2006 game at Tennessee). And had it not been for Pac Man making it rain on Sage's parade, we would have been sitting at a managable 3-4 instead of a pitiful 2-5.

It makes you wonder what would have been if we would have kept Carr on the bench for the rest of the season.

Do you remember how we got so far behind in that game?

Mike

Carr Bombed
06-12-2008, 11:26 PM
It makes you wonder what would have been if we would have kept Carr on the bench for the rest of the season.

Matters on who we signed as the #3 QB........Sage Rosenfels broke his hand and was done for the year.

BornOrange
06-12-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't know about youl guys but I feel bad for him, but then again its only for one more season.
No, it's for two more seasons. Sage is signed through the 2009 season.

Goldensilence
06-13-2008, 12:07 AM
Do you remember how we got so far behind in that game?

Mike

Nope those kind of facts are glossed over.

I'm not surprised one bit he wants and feels like he should be a starter. He has to lament his chances in D.C. and Miami. He could very well be the next Rich Gannon but I see more the next A.J. Feeley.

http://www.nfl.com/players/a.j.feeley/profile?id=FEE447935
http://www.nfl.com/players/sagerosenfels/profile?id=ROS396938

I think he'd do well to enjoy another year under Kubiak and hopefully push his game to where he can make more then a game manager type QB.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 12:10 AM
Nope those kind of facts are glossed over.

I'm not surprised one bit he wants and feels like he should be a starter. He has to lament his chances in D.C. and Miami. He could very well be the next Rich Gannon but I see more the next A.J. Feeley.

http://www.nfl.com/players/a.j.feeley/profile?id=FEE447935
http://www.nfl.com/players/sagerosenfels/profile?id=ROS396938

I think he'd do well to enjoy another year under Kubiak and hopefully push his game to where he can make more then a game manager type QB.

S. Rosenfels 22/35 290 4 3

Seems to me if he hadn't thrown ain INT per quarter for the first 3 1/2 quarters, we wouldn't have needed amazing 1/8th of a game from him. Oh but we'll always remember it as the comeback that almost was. I think I remember him having a fumble or two as well.

Goldensilence
06-13-2008, 12:13 AM
S. Rosenfels 22/35 290 4 3

Seems to me if he hadn't thrown ain INT per quarter for the first 3 1/2 quarters, we wouldn't have needed amazing 1/8th of a game from him. Oh but we'll always remember it as the comeback that almost was. I think I remember him having a fumble or two as well.

You forgot the lost fumble.

On edit no you didn't.

ocd
06-13-2008, 12:26 AM
Schaub will be injured at some point in the season and Serge will get his chance to go on a winning streak and put the coaching staff in a dilema.



:gun:

Seńor Stan
06-13-2008, 08:04 AM
I'm sorry, but Sage is the better quarterback. Sage also tastes good on everything, including spicy foods.

Sage is a prime ingredient of good sausage.

Cue the shirtless Vince Young takes in ...5...4...3...2...1...

Lucky
06-13-2008, 09:38 AM
Serge will get his chance to go on a winning streak and put the coaching staff in a dilema.
This Serge?
http://www.dantrujillo.com/blog/portrait_b_pinchot.jpg

What happened to his job at the Beverly Hills art gallery? If I were to guess, I'd say he throws like a girl. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Specnatz
06-13-2008, 09:47 AM
I swear there is a contingent here that hopes Schuab gets hurt so there GF serge gets into the game and can prove people right or wrong.

WTF is it with predicting a guy will get hurt? Stay assy so-called Texans Fans.

TEXANS84
06-13-2008, 09:53 AM
What happened to his job at the Beverly Hills art gallery? If I were to guess, I'd say he throws like a girl. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Did you not see the end? Obviously he doesn't have a job anymore with Victor Maitlen being shot by Axel Foley. Duh!

Polo
06-13-2008, 10:03 AM
IMO, Sage's potential as a starter would be a notch or two above game manager.

Definitely not a bad thing and definitely something you can win with.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 10:09 AM
IMO, Sage's potential as a starter would be a notch or two above game manager.

Definitely not a bad thing and definitely something you can win with.

OK you might be able to win with a guy who is a notch above game manager. But if your goal is a superbowl, well that's probably not going to happen. The fact that you can name the last two game managers to win a superbowl should tell you something.

IMHO Sage is Commander Cody the second. He's a guy who has great leadership abilities and can put it all together for short spurts of time, but if he sees extended PT his weaknesses will be exposed. For Carlson it was small hands. For Sage its poor decision making and inaccurate passes.


Mike

Polo
06-13-2008, 10:25 AM
OK you might be able to win with a guy who is a notch above game manager. But if your goal is a superbowl, well that's probably not going to happen. The fact that you can name the last two game managers to win a superbowl should tell you something.

IMHO Sage is Commander Cody the second. He's a guy who has great leadership abilities and can put it all together for short spurts of time, but if he sees extended PT his weaknesses will be exposed. For Carlson it was small hands. For Sage its poor decision making and inaccurate passes.


Mike

I don't disagree with you.

I'm a Matt Schaub fan....I'm saying that I think Sage doesn't have the potential Matt does...


IMO...


Sage's potential = notch or two above game manager

Matt's potential = playmaker

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't disagree with you.

I'm a Matt Schaub fan....I'm saying that I think Sage doesn't have the potential Matt does...


IMO...


Sage's potential = notch or two above game manager

Matt's potential = playmaker

And I don't think Sage has starter potential. I think he's a great backup, but much like Carlson (if you watched us in the post Moon era, I'm sorry to bring it up) if he sees extended time as a starter he will quickly become a bad QB.

Mike

Polo
06-13-2008, 10:36 AM
And I don't think Sage has starter potential. I think he's a great backup, but much like Carlson (if you watched us in the post Moon era, I'm sorry to bring it up) if he sees extended time as a starter he will quickly become a bad QB.

Mike

Oh ok...

Well then I do disagree....


I think Sage IS capable of being a starter....I think initially he may try to do too much, but as he settled into the role he'd be a guy that'd be a notch or two above game manager....

Thorn
06-13-2008, 11:25 AM
I think Sage has the talent to be a starter on some teams, depending on the team and how they run their offense. For us, he's a game winner and has proven he can step in and do the job. I'd like to see us keep Sage rather than trade him because as far as I'm concerned, Schaub still hasn't proven he can be a starter for 16 games and take us into the playoffs.

I hopeing Schaub proves himself this year and becomes the QB a lot of you think he already is. Until then, Sage is gold.

El Tejano
06-13-2008, 11:34 AM
I think Sage is good. However, I still don't know how he plays if the opponent gets to prepare for him on a weekly basis.

I do know that our starting QB is going to have to be real sharp this year, and he most likely is practicing that way because Sage is expressing how badly he wants to start. More comp the better IMO.

If the starting QB can't perform under that pressure than we know Sage is our guy.

SOLIS
06-13-2008, 11:36 AM
Do you remember how we got so far behind in that game?

Mike

Not quite sure I understand your question. From what I remember, Carr's three turnovers gave a then terrible Titan's team all the momentum they needed. Sage threw that pick to Pac Man (making it rain all over Sage's parade). Take away that one costly mistake, and I think Sage goes on to win the game.


Matters on who we signed as the #3 QB........Sage Rosenfels broke his hand and was done for the year.
Yeah - that's right. I forgot about that and all the conspiracy theories that followed. In my defense, I've tried to suppress the memories of the D.C. era - it makes my fandom a lot less burdensome.
:texflag:

El Tejano
06-13-2008, 11:39 AM
From Sage threw that pick to Pac Man (making it rain all over Sage's parade). Take away that one costly mistake, and I think Sage goes on to win the game.



.
:texflag:

That was also a very well thrown ball that was placed right in front of Andre Johnson and it bounced out of his hands. That throw would've provided us a 1st down and we could've won that game.

ChampionTexan
06-13-2008, 11:41 AM
And I don't think Sage has starter potential. I think he's a great backup, but much like Carlson (if you watched us in the post Moon era, I'm sorry to bring it up) if he sees extended time as a starter he will quickly become a bad QB.

Mike

If you define "NFL starter" as being one of the 32 best QB's in the NFL, then I strongly believe Sage qualifies. That said, nobody gets excited about having the 27th best QB in the league. If you define it as having the capability of taking a team to a Super Bowl title, than probably not. (Please note that not actually winning a Super Bowl doesn't mean someone didn't have the capability to do it as with Moon, Marino, and Fouts to name three.)

Schaub may or may not have that capability. We really haven't had the opportunity to find out yet. One partial year gives us some cause for concern and some cause for optimism, but no answers yet.

Right now, I believe Sage's true value lies in being an insurance policy while we find out more about Schaub, but I believe the answer at QB for the Texans is either Schaub, or is not currently on the roster.

infantrycak
06-13-2008, 11:42 AM
Not quite sure I understand your question. From what I remember, Carr's three turnovers gave a then terrible Titan's team all the momentum they needed. Sage threw that pick to Pac Man (making it rain all over Sage's parade). Take away that one costly mistake, and I think Sage goes on to win the game.

You are talking about a different game I believe. The 4 TD game by Sage was in relief of Schaub, not Sage.

El Tejano
06-13-2008, 11:43 AM
I have the perfect solution. Let's let Sage start only against The Titans.

Goldensilence
06-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Not quite sure I understand your question. From what I remember, Carr's three turnovers gave a then terrible Titan's team all the momentum they needed. Sage threw that pick to Pac Man (making it rain all over Sage's parade). Take away that one costly mistake, and I think Sage goes on to win the game.



Yeah - that's right. I forgot about that and all the conspiracy theories that followed. In my defense, I've tried to suppress the memories of the D.C. era - it makes my fandom a lot less burdensome.
:texflag:

:confused: Carr wasn't in that game.

SOLIS
06-13-2008, 11:50 AM
:confused: Carr wasn't in that game.

Yes he was. 2006 Tennessee Titans game - in Tennessee. Carr was benched in the third quarter. Mario sacked VY - the first meeting of the two - remember?

beerlover
06-13-2008, 11:54 AM
Schaub & Sage are system QB's. their experience & proven NFL play make both viable starting material. I'm fine with not trading Sage for that 3rd pick to the Vikings, here you have a 100 million dollar franchise so you spend 2-3% on QB insurance. Boyd or Brink would have to step up in a big way to part ways with the Sage policy :)

Goldensilence
06-13-2008, 11:56 AM
Yes he was. 2006 Tennessee Titans game - in Tennessee. Carr was benched in the third quarter. Mario sacked VY - the first meeting of the two - remember?

Yes that game but most of us are talking about the Titans game last year in 2007.

I'm with you though the faster we move away from the D.C era the better.

SOLIS
06-13-2008, 11:56 AM
You are talking about a different game I believe. The 4 TD game by Sage was in relief of Schaub, not Sage.

Exactly - I'm not talking about last years game. I'm going back to two years ago, when Sage replaced a benched Carr. Anyway - yeah man, it's in the original post back a page.

SOLIS
06-13-2008, 12:00 PM
Yes that game but most of us are talking about the Titans game last year in 2007.

I'm with you though the faster we move away from the D.C era the better.

Yeah but, I was responding to Mike's/Carr Bomb's responses to my original post - which was about the 06 game. My contention was: that game in 06 was the first time I thought that Sage could be a starting quarterback in this league. Not to say that I'd rather have Rosenfels over Schaub, but I think the dude has the chops to be a starting QB, in the right system.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 12:41 PM
If you define "NFL starter" as being one of the 32 best QB's in the NFL, then I strongly believe Sage qualifies. That said, nobody gets excited about having the 27th best QB in the league. If you define it as having the capability of taking a team to a Super Bowl title, than probably not. (Please note that not actually winning a Super Bowl doesn't mean someone didn't have the capability to do it as with Moon, Marino, and Fouts to name three.)

Schaub may or may not have that capability. We really haven't had the opportunity to find out yet. One partial year gives us some cause for concern and some cause for optimism, but no answers yet.

Right now, I believe Sage's true value lies in being an insurance policy while we find out more about Schaub, but I believe the answer at QB for the Texans is either Schaub, or is not currently on the roster.

Ok. Let me define my position further then. I want a starter who has the ability to lead a quality team to the SB win. Note I said LEAD. Moon Fouts and Marino all had the talent. Moon, Marino and Fouts were all capable of taking a team to the top, they just didn't have the supporting cast or they had something go DRASTICALLY wrong (buddy ryan going into a prevent defense with 12 mins left int he THIRD quarter for example). The talent in this league is so watered down right now that you're right he is one of the 32 best QBs in the league. But he's not a QUALITY starter. I think you and I are pretty much in agreement there. He is somewhere between the 25th and 32nd best qb in the league right now, which really says more about the talent (or lack there of) in the league than it does his ability to come in and start.

As for Schaub, you're exactly right. Thus far we don't know if he can be a starter in this league. We've seen flashes. All indications are he can. He and Sage didn't perform that differently last year but the difference and what puts Schaub ahead of Sage in my book is that Schaub hasn't had the chance to prove he's not a starter. Schaub had flashes of brilliance and flashes of DC in him last year. I expect that from a 3rd year player on a new team with a new system. I don't expect that from a 6th or 7th year starter who's been on the team 2 years and played a decent amount. Its a wait and see game, and the Texans know that.

To sum it up. Sage could start for a handful of teams in this league. If he did, they would still be bottom feeders. Schaub has shown flashes of brilliance. He has shown flashes of disaster. We need to find out with Schaub and either commit to him as the starter for the future, or figure out he's not what we thought he was and move on. FTR I think he's what we thought he was.

Mike

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 01:03 PM
Yeah but, I was responding to Mike's/Carr Bomb's responses to my original post - which was about the 06 game. My contention was: that game in 06 was the first time I thought that Sage could be a starting quarterback in this league. Not to say that I'd rather have Rosenfels over Schaub, but I think the dude has the chops to be a starting QB, in the right system.

My mistake. I saw Sage, and Texans and didn't see the year. Then again if that's the first time you thought he could be a successful start in this league, hopefully it was followed shortly afterwards with a smack of reality.

Mike

Lucky
06-13-2008, 01:05 PM
...Schaub has shown flashes of brilliance. He has shown flashes of disaster...
Where were the flashes of disaster? Matt had a bad game in San Diego. As did everyone else. He had a bad 1st half here vs. the Titans. As did everyone else. I don't remember thinking "Matt's a disaster" during either game.

Matt has some questions to answer regarding staying on the field. But when he and the rest of the offense were healthy, Schaub has proven he can get the job done.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 01:15 PM
Where were the flashes of disaster? Matt had a bad game in San Diego. As did everyone else. He had a bad 1st half here vs. the Titans. As did everyone else. I don't remember thinking "Matt's a disaster" during either game.

Matt has some questions to answer regarding staying on the field. But when he and the rest of the offense were healthy, Schaub has proven he can get the job done.

To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
Mike

HOU-TEX
06-13-2008, 01:25 PM
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
Mike

Not to play the excuse game here, but we didn't really have an NFL calibre running game at the time either. There were a few games we were unable to punch it in the endzone in 3 plays as well as being unable to get a yard on 4th down.

IMO, ridding ourselves of Dayne and adding Gibbs alone will allow the passing game to open up for more opportunities in the Redzone.

:fans:

SOLIS
06-13-2008, 01:29 PM
My mistake. I saw Sage, and Texans and didn't see the year. Then again if that's the first time you thought he could be a successful start in this league, hopefully it was followed shortly afterwards with a smack of reality.

Mike

Not a problem. Let's just put it this way - it was at that point I thought Sage was the better option than Carr. You can continue hating on Sage all you want, it won't hurt my feelings, however, I don't think a team with Sage at the helm is an automatic bottom feeder. On a team with a good defense and running game, I think Sage is capable enough to lead a contender.

Fox
06-13-2008, 01:33 PM
IMO the potential for 'disaster' with Schaub is his ability to stay healthy, not his ability. We invested two 2nd's, a fat contract, and several years that are very important to the growth of the franchise into this kid. If he can't stay healthy, as with any player who can't stay healthy, it's a bust for the team. Now, I still have hope and believe that as our running game and line play improve, he'll get hit less and stay healthy. On the other hand, I'll be holding my breath next year because Schaub was seemingly dinged up basically all year last season with one injury or another, culminating in his should injury.

Despite great potential, a player can only help you if they can stay on the field, and until Schaub can prove that he's capable of that I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 01:45 PM
Not a problem. Let's just put it this way - it was at that point I thought Sage was the better option than Carr. You can continue hating on Sage all you want, it won't hurt my feelings, however, I don't think a team with Sage at the helm is an automatic bottom feeder. On a team with a good defense and running game, I think Sage is capable enough to lead a contender.

Au contrair. The best backup is the one who is trying to prove he's a starter. I think he's a GREAT backup. I think he can fill in for a game or two and do a very good job. I just don't like him long term. I don't think however that he could LEAD a contenter. He might be able to go along for the ride with a top notch defense and an excellent running game. But that's the difference between a game manager and a game maker.

Mike

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 01:47 PM
IMO the potential for 'disaster' with Schaub is his ability to stay healthy, not his ability. We invested two 2nd's, a fat contract, and several years that are very important to the growth of the franchise into this kid. If he can't stay healthy, as with any player who can't stay healthy, it's a bust for the team. Now, I still have hope and believe that as our running game and line play improve, he'll get hit less and stay healthy. On the other hand, I'll be holding my breath next year because Schaub was seemingly dinged up basically all year last season with one injury or another, culminating in his should injury.

Despite great potential, a player can only help you if they can stay on the field, and until Schaub can prove that he's capable of that I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't know if you remember us in the redzone with Schaub in the game but we were very very shaky. Its understandable, especially with a new team and system etc. The field shrinks and time becomes more and more crucial. And I didn't say I don't think he can get it fixed. Just that it doesn't matter what you do in the first 80 yards of the field, for the most part its that last 20 that determines how many games you win. We can't go Lee Evans on everyone every game.

Mike

infantrycak
06-13-2008, 01:49 PM
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

What's your definition of abysmal?

Let's compare to someone most would say is pretty good--you can guess who:

Redzone passing

47 comp. 84 att. 56.0% comp. 3.60 ypa 18 TD's (21%) 3 INT's (3.5%) 88.4 QB rating.

Schaub

16 comp. 30 att. 53.3% comp. 4.13 ypa 5 (16.7%) 1 INT (3.3%) 89.4 QB rating.

I am not seeing the stark difference here that makes Schaub abysmal in the redzone.

Lucky
06-13-2008, 01:52 PM
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.
From a thread titled Red zone stats (http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=805423&highlight=redzone#post805423), posted on 12-15-07:

Matt in RZ with AJ: 66.7% - 4 TD - 0 INT - 122.5 QBR
Sage in RZ with AJ: 80.0% - 3 TD - 0 INT - 125.8 QBR

Stats include a spike by Matt in RZ to stop clock. Doesn't include a red zone fumble by Sage in TB game, or the rushing TD Sage had in Broncos game.

The entire offense struggled in the red zone, without Andre Johnson. And much of that time the Texans had the rushing threats of Dayne, Gado, and Echiwhatwashisname. Let's not be so quick to judge the Texans performance in the red zone, or Schaub's work in particular.

The Pencil Neck
06-13-2008, 02:05 PM
I don't know if you remember us in the redzone with Schaub in the game but we were very very shaky. Its understandable, especially with a new team and system etc. The field shrinks and time becomes more and more crucial. And I didn't say I don't think he can get it fixed. Just that it doesn't matter what you do in the first 80 yards of the field, for the most part its that last 20 that determines how many games you win. We can't go Lee Evans on everyone every game.

Mike

I think you're letting a couple of bad plays in the red zone influence your opinion WAY too much. Early in the season, Matt had a couple of questionable throws. After he tried to force one against the Panthers, he got a little reticent and that hesitation look like it caused a turnover against the Colts (after Jacoby's great punt return.)

But overall, he could have been better and I expect him to be better but I think he was far from "abysmal."

76Texan
06-13-2008, 02:37 PM
I was a little bored...

Craig Morton led his third team, the Broncos to the SB in 1978,
his 15th year in the league. In the previous 3 years, his TD/INT ratio was 29/49. He was pretty good with the Cowboys before Staubach took over.
Many people thought Morton was done. But in the end, he wound up playing seven more years then Staubach.

Vince Ferragamo ratio was 7/12 the previous 3 years as a backup, but took the LA Rams to the SB in 1980.
He was 69-145 and less than a thousand yard passing in those 3 years.
A 4th round draft pick.

Jim Plunkett became the starter of the Raiders in the 6th week, then promptly went on to win the SB for them in 1981.
His passer rating in the previous 8 years never touch 70.
Plunket was a #1 pick, called "best pro quarterback prospect ever" by some, was ROY, but injuries marred the following years of his career, the next four with the Pats never having a winning record. He was traded to SF where he spent 2 ho-hum years and was released. The Raiders picked him up, the first 2 years he attempted a total of 15 passes. Then came that 3rd year.

In his second year (1981), David Woodley was splitting time with backup Don Strock in Miami.
In a playoff game against the Chargers, Woodley started and the Dolphins fell behind 0-24. Strock came in and made the game a thriller, a 38-41 OT loss.
The next year, the strike shorten season 1982 saw Woodley playing in 9 games, 1080 yd passing, a 5/8 TD/INT ratio, and a 63.5 rating. Yet he took them to the SB in Jan 83. He was an 8th round draft pick.

Jeff Hostetler was a fifth year backup for the Giants with a total of 109 pass attempts, until the 15th game of the season when he took over for an injured Phil Simms. NY went on to win the last 2 games en route to a SB victory over the Bills. He was a 3rd round draft pick.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 02:37 PM
Well I'd say the fact that he ranked 20th in completion % inside the RZ is pretty bad. Coincidently (and surprising to me) Sage finished 1st in the NFL. Other guys who were close to Schaub, McCown, VY,Pennington,Boller.

The other thing I would point out, is the fact that Schaub had 3 bad games in the red zone. You are correct. But that's out of only 11 games. And really he only played a significant ammount of time in 9 of them. If I replace abysmal with poor, or questionable or sub-elite does that sound better?

No doubt it was a failure as a team. And having AJ not there didn't help. But it was what it was. Like I said, I think he'll get it straightened out. But as of now I'll start using the word suspect.


Mike

infantrycak
06-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Well I'd say the fact that he ranked 20th in completion % inside the RZ is pretty bad.

Where did you get that stat? The unknown QB above with a 2.7% better completion % in the RZ is Peyton Manning.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 02:49 PM
I was a little bored...

Craig Morton led his third team, the Broncos to the SB in 1978,
his 15th year in the league. In the previous 3 years, his TD/INT ratio was 29/49. He was pretty good with the Cowboys before Staubach took over.
Many people thought Morton was done. But in the end, he wound up playing seven more years then Staubach.

Vince Ferragamo ratio was 7/12 the previous 3 years as a backup, but took the LA Rams to the SB in 1980.
He was 69-145 and less than a thousand yard passing in those 3 years.
A 4th round draft pick.

Jim Plunkett became the starter of the Raiders in the 6th week, then promptly went on to win the SB for them in 1981.
His passer rating in the previous 8 years never touch 70.
Plunket was a #1 pick, called "best pro quarterback prospect ever" by some, was ROY, but injuries marred the following years of his career, the next four with the Pats never having a winning record. He was traded to SF where he spent 2 ho-hum years and was released. The Raiders picked him up, the first 2 years he attempted a total of 15 passes. Then came that 3rd year.

In his second year (1981), David Woodley was splitting time with backup Don Strock in Miami.
In a playoff game against the Chargers, Woodley started and the Dolphins fell behind 0-24. Strock came in and made the game a thriller, a 38-41 OT loss.
The next year, the strike shorten season 1982 saw Woodley playing in 9 games, 1080 yd passing, a 5/8 TD/INT ratio, and a 63.5 rating. Yet he took them to the SB in Jan 83. He was an 8th round draft pick.

Jeff Hostetler was a fifth year backup for the Giants with a total of 109 pass attempts, until the 15th game of the season when he took over for an injured Phil Simms. NY went on to win the last 2 games en route to a SB victory over the Bills. He was a 3rd round draft pick.


I'm assuming you're looking at backup to starter late bloomers. I guess that could be Sage. But to assume that he is the statistical anomoly is a stretch. Like I said, there's more Commander Cody than anything in him if you ask me. And that's not a bad thing. Carlson filled in very admirably for Moon on several occasions.

Mike

76Texan
06-13-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm assuming you're looking at backup to starter late bloomers. I guess that could be Sage. But to assume that he is the statistical anomoly is a stretch. Like I said, there's more Commander Cody than anything in him if you ask me. And that's not a bad thing. Carlson filled in very admirably for Moon on several occasions.

Mike
Exactly! We saw Sage improving each year. Who's gonna say he has reached his ceiling?

Same thing can be said for MS (improvement but health issue questionable.)

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 04:03 PM
Exactly! We saw Sage improving each year. Who's gonna say he has reached his ceiling?

Same thing can be said for MS (improvement but health issue questionable.)

I ask you this question. Is he really improving? comp%, ypa, INT/TD ratio and ratings are all down.

Here's the real problem I see. The statistical data isn't really sufficient to support either of our arguments. If you watch him on the field we may have two different takes on him.

I can't site individual instances any more but I might be able to go and look up what I've written in the past. But while his completion % is relatively high, his accuracy doesn't seem to be that great. I know I know, that's a borderline oxymoron, but I've said it before. Sage's completions don't allow the receiver to run after the catch. If you look at YAC/COMP, Sage is 39th in the league. The receiver gained over two yards less than Brett Farve. Of the 38 QBs in the chart, 30 fall between 4.4 and 5.9 yards. Of the remaining 8, all of them except Kyle Boller are above 4. Kyle and Sage are the only guys below 4 yac/completion with Sage at 3.7. Again these are per completion not attempt.

Incomplete post. Its 4:00 and time for me to head to the house. If my ADHD doesn't take over I'll finish it when I get to the house.

Mike

CloakNNNdagger
06-13-2008, 05:16 PM
I ask you this question. Is he really improving? comp%, ypa, INT/TD ratio and ratings are all down.

Here's the real problem I see. The statistical data isn't really sufficient to support either of our arguments. If you watch him on the field we may have two different takes on him.

I can't site individual instances any more but I might be able to go and look up what I've written in the past. But while his completion % is relatively high, his accuracy doesn't seem to be that great. I know I know, that's a borderline oxymoron, but I've said it before. Sage's completions don't allow the receiver to run after the catch. If you look at YAC/COMP, Sage is 39th in the league. The receiver gained over two yards less than Brett Farve. Of the 38 QBs in the chart, 30 fall between 4.4 and 5.9 yards. Of the remaining 8, all of them except Kyle Boller are above 4. Kyle and Sage are the only guys below 4 yac/completion with Sage at 3.7. Again these are per completion not attempt.

Incomplete post. Its 4:00 and time for me to head to the house. If my ADHD doesn't take over I'll finish it when I get to the house.

Mike

This certainly could easily be attributed to the fact that due to our line, our running game and our limited offensive package, all of which essentially was geared (by necessity) for the QB to get the ball out of his hands ASAP. Not allowing time for a play to develop also limits the separation receivers can manage in order to find open space after a catch.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 05:44 PM
This certainly could easily be attributed to the fact that due to our line, our running game and our limited offensive package, all of which essentially was geared (by necessity) for the QB to get the ball out of his hands ASAP. Not allowing time for a play to develop also limits the separation receivers can manage in order to find open space after a catch.

If Schaub hadn't have been over a yard better than Sage then I'd be inclined to agree with you. I dunno. I do remember thinking that his throws were on target but not accurate. Several times the ball was behind or high which never bodes well for the receiver gaining yards after the catch. And I left my spreadsheet I made at work. Forgot to email it to myself, but I'll look at it next week and give you more stats.

My question is this, if the stats paint one picture, Kubes agrees with it, shanahan agrees with it and the depth chart agrees with it... then why do we assume the anomaly is the case? Statistically speaking, Sage's first year was MUCH better than his second, and the coaching staff thought they needed to go get a starter after his first year. I dunno, I've been accused of over thinking a bit, but if the stats line up and the organizations view (including kubes) line up... why not believe it?


Mike

ObsiWan
06-13-2008, 06:17 PM
That was also a very well thrown ball that was placed right in front of Andre Johnson and it bounced out of his hands. That throw would've provided us a 1st down and we could've won that game.

I wondered if I was the only one who saw that that particular INT was on Andre, not Sage.

ObsiWan
06-13-2008, 06:28 PM
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
Mike

The Texans ranked 6th in the NFL in red zone efficiency according to these ProFootball Weekly stats.

link (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL+Statistics/Inside+the+Red+Zone/2004/finalredzn.htm)

Now how that breaks down for each QB, I don't know. If anyone does, please show a link.

Goodness knows what we could have done with a legit running attack. ...or fewer turnovers.

GP
06-13-2008, 06:51 PM
I think you're letting a couple of bad plays in the red zone influence your opinion WAY too much. Early in the season, Matt had a couple of questionable throws. After he tried to force one against the Panthers, he got a little reticent and that hesitation look like it caused a turnover against the Colts (after Jacoby's great punt return.)

But overall, he could have been better and I expect him to be better but I think he was far from "abysmal."

And then in the Chargers game, Schaub threw back-to-back INTs (or it was at least on back-to-back drives) to the same guy because he was forcing the throw--The throws, IIRC, were nowhere near being a completion...with the second INT a very easy one which had no chance from the time the bal was snapped.

This was after Schaub, in the Panthers game, told Kubiak he "wouldn't do that again." After that sort of emphatic promise, you'd think he would have been less likely to throw one up for grabs (let alone two in a row).

People on this board are saying "Schaub's the man," and some are saying "Well, hold on a second..." and some are saying "Boy, I am sure glad we have Sage as a quality backup," and some are saying "He's a great stand-in, but he's had his chances" and so the jury is tilted toward Schaub thus far.

I haven't changed much on where I stand: "Who the HELL is our QB of tomorrow, because I see two backups trying to be the starter."

The stats are about the same (eerily close, actually) except for Sage being better in a category or two but Schaub being better in a different category or two than Sage (I am not going to research this out again, it's not worth the time). So...all we have left is that Schaub has "a better ceiling" and Sage has had his chances.

I just want somebody to solidify the role. And be a franchise QB. You don't see this issue on the Colts, or the Steelers, or the Chargers, or the Patriots, nor on several other teams. Those are teams that you KNOW who "the guy" is and that he's not endanger of being uprooted anytime soon.

Conversely, we're better off than the Bears--They seem to not even have ONE decent QB who can lead a team in even a somewhat decent fashion.

So, all I got is that I rambled on this topic and pretty much didn't get anywhere new with it. So, when does training camp start?...because I am bored like everyone else. Obviously.

Texanmike02
06-13-2008, 07:03 PM
The Texans ranked 6th in the NFL in red zone efficiency according to these ProFootball Weekly stats.

link (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL+Statistics/Inside+the+Red+Zone/2004/finalredzn.htm)

Now how that breaks down for each QB, I don't know. If anyone does, please show a link.

Goodness knows what we could have done with a legit running attack. ...or fewer turnovers.

I'll get you the link monday when I'm back at work. It was based just on completion percentage in the red zone. Since QB rating in the red zone is pretty much useless because it takes into account yards yards/reception it often becomes skewed very quickly.

Mike

Maddict5
06-13-2008, 07:49 PM
And then in the Chargers game, Schaub threw back-to-back INTs (or it was at least on back-to-back drives) to the same guy because he was forcing the throw--The throws, IIRC, were nowhere near being a completion...with the second INT a very easy one which had no chance from the time the bal was snapped.

This was after Schaub, in the Panthers game, told Kubiak he "wouldn't do that again." After that sort of emphatic promise, you'd think he would have been less likely to throw one up for grabs (let alone two in a row).



in schaub's defence, both of them were tipped passes.. i can only find slo-mo video of one but both of them were

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d803b007e

76Texan
06-14-2008, 04:49 AM
There are good arguments both pros and cons for Sage. Same goes for Schaub.

The thing that cannot be denied is that we have seen more (good things) out of them than in the previous year.

In Schaub's case, he had removed doubts about an unknown quality.

Therefore, I said they have both improved.
And as long as I see that, I would stay with them as our QBs, and believe that they can be at least a notch above the title "game manager", until they prove otherwise.

Take Carr for example, I gave him a lot of slack because we were a new franchise and were lacking skill players everywhere.
But when he start regressing after promising us than he won't make bad decision to throw into a crowd anymore, yet did exactly just that on the field. That's where it ends.

Right now, both Sage and Schaub are on the upward curb, despite what the numbers show.
Even great veteran QBs (not too old) have years when their numbers are down. But you can't say they have stopped improving.

b0ng
06-14-2008, 09:23 AM
If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Kubiak has Schaub starting and Sage backing up. I trust Kubiak enough with the QB's to make that decision and I'm fine with it.

If he ended up naming Sage Rosenfels as the starter for the Texans, I'd be shocked, but I wouldn't think that it was the worst decision in the world unless we started stringing together losses due to bad QB play. One thing for Kubiak, I don't think he's going to hang his hat on a terrible QB for more than 1 season. Luckily for us, we don't have a terrible QB at the 1 or the 2.

FILO_girl
06-14-2008, 09:37 AM
I would think that it should not be a set starter. Both will have to vie for the coveted position all year, keeping both of them hungry and on the competitive edge. Dunno if that is a viable option, but sounds smart to me.
I like Sage, I want to keep Sage happy. I need to see more of Schaub to convince myself he is not fragile...so this line of thought works for me.

Rip away... :tomato:

PHAROAH
06-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Sage is a backup and nothing more Shaub is the starter and if they keep him from getting hurt he will put huge numbers.

ChampionTexan
06-14-2008, 11:12 AM
I would think that it should not be a set starter. Both will have to vie for the coveted position all year, keeping both of them hungry and on the competitive edge. Dunno if that is a viable option, but sounds smart to me.
I like Sage, I want to keep Sage happy. I need to see more of Schaub to convince myself he is not fragile...so this line of thought works for me.

Rip away... :tomato:


Why would you voluntarily play your second best QB for significant amounts of time?

Mr PC
06-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Its a pet peeve of mine when people say Sage proved he is not a starter in Miami. He started only 2 games for them. 2 games is not enough of a sample size to determine a player's ability. Not to mention, Sage actually did have some success in Miami. In 2005 he entered a game with his team down 23-3. Sage stepped in and led them on a comeback, the Dolphins won that game 24-23.

What matters is what Sage has done in Houston. Every opportunity he's been given he has shown promise. I remember watching the preseason games back when DCarr was here, and it was obvious Sage was the better QB of the two. Still Carr got the starts while Sage looked on. Sage was brought to sub for Carr vs the Titans and of course he led another heroic comeback effort. Dude has stepped up every time. He has won games for us as a starter and as a backup. I do not tolerate hating on Sage because he has done everything you could ask and more.


Sage is a starting caliber QB. Rosenfels > Grossman, Smith, Jackson, Croyle, McCown. If they are good enough to start, there is no way that Sage is not good enough to start. But i reiterate, i am very happy we have him even in the backup role.

Goldensilence
06-14-2008, 03:05 PM
I think some people are still scarred understandably from the D.C. Era here in Houston, far as QBs are concerned.

No one makes a deal like they did for Schaub and then says ok prove you are starting material. If you have it in your head somewhere Sage is going to get a shot at starting in Houston you might as well find another backup QB in the league to cheer for. There is no way Kubiak and Smith make that deal unless they didn't feel Sage was a viable long term solution at QB.


Mr. PC :

The 2003 Miami Dolphins were a hard team to pinpoint. The defense was again solid and forced a lot of turnovers, and opposing offenses found running the ball extremely difficult. However, poor offensive line play (despite most of the starters returning) gave little room for Ricky to run, and the offense was stagnant. The Dolphins began with a repeat of 2002's season end, with a complete meltdown against the Houston Texans, but they rebounded to win four straight games. During a crushing overtime loss at the hands of the Patriots, Jay Fiedler was injured, forcing newly acquired backup Brian Griese to lead the Dolphins to victory the next week over San Diego. That, however, was Griese's high point, and after a good showing against Indianapolis in a losing effort, he was lousy against the Titans and highly ineffective against the Ravens. When Griese and the Dolphins fell behind to the Washington Redskins, Jay Fiedler came off the bench and saved their season, leading them to a comeback victory, 24-23. Miami looked like it might rebound thanks to a victory over the Dallas Cowboys that took them to 8-4, but two key losses to the Patriots and the Eagles ended Miami's postseason hopes. Miami finished 10-6, but was still short of a playoff spot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins#2000s

Sage for president fans. :photos:

Maddict5
06-14-2008, 03:10 PM
I haven't changed much on where I stand: "Who the HELL is our QB of tomorrow, because I see two backups trying to be the starter."


i just noticed this and had to comment because its plain wrong.. you really should watch other qb's play more.. we have two good qbs that are very capable of starting on alot of teams

imo schaub will be a franchise/top 10 qb if he can stay healthy. sage is similiar to schaub in that both are very smart and efficient but schaub adds a more vertical passing/big play element to the passing game... sage doesnt offer that as much imo and is more of a game manger (and a very good one at that- which you can win with- see the giants etc) sage would still be a good starter due to his smarts..

neither are 'backups' in their level of play

FILO_girl
06-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Why would you voluntarily play your second best QB for significant amounts of time?
That is just it...we wouldn't have a designated second best. Whoever was the best player would be the starting QB.
They would be equals, whomever was the more dominant player would be the one who was playing. Keeps 'em hungry...Comprendez?

Mr PC
06-14-2008, 04:13 PM
Mr. PC :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins#2000s

Sage for president fans. :photos:

to clarify, i was referring to this game, which Miami won 24-23:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/games/2005-12-04-dolphins-bills_x.htm

Even in the late-afternoon shadows covering the end zone, Chris Chambers was easy to spot, leaping to make the reception that capped the best day of his NFL career and the Miami Dolphins' biggest comeback victory since 1974.

Chambers caught a lobbed 4-yard pass from Sage Rosenfels on fourth down with 6 seconds left, the last of three touchdowns Miami scored in the final 11:35 Sunday to beat the Buffalo Bills 24-23.

...

Struggling Miami quarterback Gus Frerotte was forced to the bench with a concussion in the third quarter, and Rosenfels directed fourth-quarter touchdown drives of 70, 49 and 73 yards.

ChampionTexan
06-14-2008, 05:17 PM
That is just it...we wouldn't have a designated second best. Whoever was the best player would be the starting QB.
They would be equals, whomever was the more dominant player would be the one who was playing. Keeps 'em hungry...Comprendez?

I think there are many things wrong with that. You can't just say they're equals because you want them to be ! One of them is the better QB! To say they're equal just sounds like someone who's been to way too many new-age parenting classes, and just doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Even if the people in charge of the decision ultimately think it's Sage, you play your best players!

Should we give Andre Davis more playing time in order to keep AJ hungry? Think the Pats ought to get Cassel in the game more to make sure Brady doesn't rest on his laurels?

One of these guys is better (Schaub), determine which one (Schaub), and then let whoever that is (Schaub) be your QB.

CloakNNNdagger
06-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Why would you voluntarily play your second best QB for significant amounts of time?

Are we talking about Sage or Schaub???????????? :thinking: You may not be interpretting the question the way some of us are...........however, despite the difference, we could very well come up with the same answer, couldn't we? :thinking:

GP
06-14-2008, 10:08 PM
i just noticed this and had to comment because its plain wrong.. you really should watch other qb's play more.. we have two good qbs that are very capable of starting on alot of teams

imo schaub will be a franchise/top 10 qb if he can stay healthy. sage is similiar to schaub in that both are very smart and efficient but schaub adds a more vertical passing/big play element to the passing game... sage doesnt offer that as much imo and is more of a game manger (and a very good one at that- which you can win with- see the giants etc) sage would still be a good starter due to his smarts..

neither are 'backups' in their level of play

I think Schaub is eventually going to get injured again, and I think it's a repeat of last year. And then we're really going to see people vehemently demanding that we get a franchise QB from the draft or via trade--Not a project guy, not a "possible" starter, etc.

I am just guessing that, after this season, fans will stop begging for us to build our OL...and we're going to see a charge led for a 100% franchise-type, no-miss QB however we would be able to get one.

We're getting enough depth at other positions that we can afford to gamble on a high-profile QB.

ChampionTexan
06-14-2008, 10:17 PM
Are we talking about Sage or Schaub???????????? :thinking: You may not be interpretting the question the way some of us are...........however, despite the difference, we could very well come up with the same answer, couldn't we? :thinking:

I was responding to the proposition put forth by FILO Girl that we split time between the QB's. In that response, I purposely didn't mention who I thought was better since it wasn't relevant to FG's point.

Hooston Texan
06-14-2008, 11:09 PM
I feel bad for Sage because there are definitely NOT 32 quarterbacks in the league who are better than him. Problem is that he's stuck on a team with someone who is. That is, of course, my opinion.

While we all want competition at every position, uncertainty at QB (even if it is between two good players) can retard the growth and development of the offense. You want your first-team offense playing with your first-team QB as much as possible before the season. This is why Kubiak publicly proclaimed Schaub the starter: he wants it known that he expects Schaub to be the leader of the offense and, hopefully, the entire team. No public distractions, and everyone on the offense will have plenty of time to know how Matt runs the show.

That said, if Sage plays circles around Matt in training camp and the preseason, my guess is he will take the opening snap in Pittsburgh. But he's going to have to clearly show he is the better option; any doubt will be resolved in Matt's favor.

Texanmike02
06-14-2008, 11:44 PM
I think there are many things wrong with that. You can't just say they're equals because you want them to be ! One of them is the better QB! To say they're equal just sounds like someone who's been to way too many new-age parenting classes, and just doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Even if the people in charge of the decision ultimately think it's Sage, you play your best players!

Should we give Andre Davis more playing time in order to keep AJ hungry? Think the Pats ought to get Cassel in the game more to make sure Brady doesn't rest on his laurels?

One of these guys is better (Schaub), determine which one (Schaub), and then let whoever that is (Schaub) be your QB.

SING IT BROTHA!!!!!

wow... in today's era of "just try really really hard..." its refreshing to hear someone say they want the best man to win. Rep headed your way (I think its the second or 3rd time I've ever done it)


Mike

threetoedpete
06-15-2008, 10:20 AM
Well my best guess is If Minnie- soooda offered up the second instead of a third all of this would be moot right now. 'Cause no matter how talented Sage is being projected by some on this thread, Rick Smith would of pulled the trigger on that deal quicker than Ced Benson can find trouble on a boat. One of the young guns on the roster comes 'round this season Color Sage *gone*.

Maddict5
06-15-2008, 10:29 AM
I think Schaub is eventually going to get injured again, and I think it's a repeat of last year. And then we're really going to see people vehemently demanding that we get a franchise QB from the draft or via trade--Not a project guy, not a "possible" starter, etc.

I am just guessing that, after this season, fans will stop begging for us to build our OL...and we're going to see a charge led for a 100% franchise-type, no-miss QB however we would be able to get one.

We're getting enough depth at other positions that we can afford to gamble on a high-profile QB.

:rolleyes:
yeah its that easy.. needless to say, i disagree with you and will almost garuntee we wont be looking at qbs next year..

learn the lessons from mario and give schaub time to prove himself before you throw him out with the wash

ObsiWan
06-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I think Schaub is eventually going to get injured again, and I think it's a repeat of last year. And then we're really going to see people vehemently demanding that we get a franchise QB from the draft or via trade--Not a project guy, not a "possible" starter, etc.

I am just guessing that, after this season, fans will stop begging for us to build our OL...and we're going to see a charge led for a 100% franchise-type, no-miss QB however we would be able to get one.

We're getting enough depth at other positions that we can afford to gamble on a high-profile QB.

There is no such thing.
P.Manning didn't even make it past the Chargers
Brady failed in the Super Bowl
Roethelisberger? He got beat by last year's Jag backup.
Up until he won in the playoffs last season, Eli was on the "hot seat" in NY.

And, if this ficticious "no-miss QB" actually existed, how much would we give up to get him??

thunderkyss
06-15-2008, 09:16 PM
Well my best guess is If Minnie- soooda offered up the second instead of a third all of this would be moot right now. 'Cause no matter how talented Sage is being projected by some on this thread, Rick Smith would of pulled the trigger on that deal quicker than Ced Benson can find trouble on a boat. One of the young guns on the roster comes 'round this season Color Sage *gone*.

Without a doubt, if one of the young'uns show something, then Sage won't be a Texan next year. IF we can get a player and a future draft pick.... Sage will be gone this year.

Doesn't mean that Schaub is the better QB.

What we've seen so far, is a system that both QBs can be productive in.

IMHO, I think Sage thinks better on his feet. When a play is broken, I'd much rather have Sage in the game, than Schaub.

Matt is Younger....... not by much really, but that along with what we gave up to get him, and what we are paying him, he's the man.

I've got nothing against Matt, & I'm hoping and routing for him to make big strides, and be the leader everyone talks about him being. But I wouldn't have given up two #2s & the boatload of Cash we gave him, when we had Sage.

But that's just me.

b0ng
06-15-2008, 09:38 PM
And, if this ficticious "no-miss QB" actually existed, how much would we give up to get him??

I'd give my left nut for one.

ObsiWan
06-16-2008, 12:44 AM
I'd give my left nut for one.

LOL!
Now THAT'S taking one for the team!

GP
06-16-2008, 08:54 AM
There is no such thing.
P.Manning didn't even make it past the Chargers
Brady failed in the Super Bowl
Roethelisberger? He got beat by last year's Jag backup.
Up until he won in the playoffs last season, Eli was on the "hot seat" in NY.

And, if this ficticious "no-miss QB" actually existed, how much would we give up to get him??

WHAT?!?!?

It doesn't exist? LOL. Whatever, dude.

I'll have a rebuttal in a second. I need to rest from laughing so hard.

Here's the short version:

Brady has won more Super Bowls than Schaub or Sage put together.

Same for Big Ben.

Same for Manning.

Heck, those Qbs have won more games and more playoff games than ours.

But "they don't exist." Riiiight.

Think a little bit on it.

GP
06-16-2008, 08:56 AM
:rolleyes:
yeah its that easy.. needless to say, i disagree with you and will almost garuntee we wont be looking at qbs next year..

learn the lessons from mario and give schaub time to prove himself before you throw him out with the wash

I saw all I needed to see, in Matt Schaub, last year.

I liked the first two games...and the rest after that was very telling. He got weaker and less effective with every game. And has nothing to do with the injuries. The injuries, to me, just COMPOUND the troubles he has.

And you disagreeing with me does not mean that you're right and I'm wrong.

Texanmike02
06-16-2008, 09:33 AM
I saw all I needed to see, in Matt Schaub, last year.

I liked the first two games...and the rest after that was very telling. He got weaker and less effective with every game. And has nothing to do with the injuries. The injuries, to me, just COMPOUND the troubles he has.

And you disagreeing with me does not mean that you're right and I'm wrong.

No but you disagreeing with me means that you're wrong and i'm right.... j/k


I don't think we knew what we saw last year. I've said before, there was plenty to like and plenty to not like. This year we'll know a lot more. The way this team is shaping up, if Schaub was what we brought him in to be... we've got an outside shot at the playoffs. If he's not.... this could be a rough year.

Mike

infantrycak
06-16-2008, 10:22 AM
I saw all I needed to see, in Matt Schaub, last year.

I liked the first two games...and the rest after that was very telling. He got weaker and less effective with every game. And has nothing to do with the injuries. The injuries, to me, just COMPOUND the troubles he has.

And you disagreeing with me does not mean that you're right and I'm wrong.

Well you are blatantly overlooking a pretty obvious factor--the loss of a top 5 in the league WR. Remind us when that happened?--oh yeah, end of game 2. Weaker and less effective huh?--oh look at the coincidence. AJ back and Schaub goes 21 of 33 for 294 yards 8.9 ypa 2 TD's 0 INT's and a QB rating of 112.3. The facts don't agree with your perception.

b0ng
06-16-2008, 10:25 AM
I know the offseason is long but damn, doesn't anybody get tired of arguing about Schaub and Rosenfels?

Thorn
06-16-2008, 10:36 AM
I know the offseason is long but damn, doesn't anybody get tired of arguing about Schaub and Rosenfels?

What else is there to do? LOL

ChampionTexan
06-16-2008, 11:22 AM
I saw all I needed to see, in Matt Schaub, last year.

I liked the first two games...and the rest after that was very telling. He got weaker and less effective with every game. And has nothing to do with the injuries. The injuries, to me, just COMPOUND the troubles he has.

And you disagreeing with me does not mean that you're right and I'm wrong.

GP -

Let's assume that the Texans as an organization were 100% in agreement with you, and were convinced after last year that neither Schaub or Rosenfels were the answer. They hire you as GM, based on the concept of getting that can't miss QB. Given the ability to make trades, sign FA's and make draft selections, where would we be right now in terms of our 100% Franchise type no-miss QB?

And as long as we're revising history, let's say they brought you in prior to the Schaub trade (because you knew he wouldn't be the guy). Where would we be right now under that scenario?

Specnatz
06-16-2008, 11:31 AM
Well you are blatantly overlooking a pretty obvious factor--the loss of a top 5 in the league WR. Remind us when that happened?--oh yeah, end of game 2. Weaker and less effective huh?--oh look at the coincidence. AJ back and Schaub goes 21 of 33 for 294 yards 8.9 ypa 2 TD's 0 INT's and a QB rating of 112.3. The facts don't agree with your perception.

Do not under estimate the loss of a running game ........ Crap I mean never having an esisting running game.

GP, no it does not mean anyone is right disagreeing with someone, but when you insert facts into the equation it does mean your wrong.

ObsiWan
06-16-2008, 11:57 AM
WHAT?!?!?

It doesn't exist? LOL. Whatever, dude.

I'll have a rebuttal in a second. I need to rest from laughing so hard.

Here's the short version:

Brady has won more Super Bowls than Schaub or Sage put together.

Same for Big Ben.

Same for Manning.

Heck, those Qbs have won more games and more playoff games than ours.

But "they don't exist." Riiiight.

Think a little bit on it.

Look, my point is that all QBs owe their success to how well they mesh with the system they are in, the talent around them, and their work ethic. If any of those pieces are lacking, they won't succeed. Take anybody you want to mention and surround them with our 2005 team and they'd lose too.

Any of the guys you mentioned took their lumps until all the pieces fell into place. The exceptions were Big Ben and Brady who happened to step into situations where all the pieces were already there. All they had to do was not screw things up.

Anyone - ANYone - brought in to the Texans will have to learn the Kubiak/Shanahan offense and that will take time. So no one you bring in here will be "100% no-miss" right away.

The Pencil Neck
06-16-2008, 12:36 PM
Any of the guys you mentioned took their lumps until all the pieces fell into place. The exceptions were Big Ben and Brady who happened to step into situations where all the pieces were already there. All they had to do was not screw things up.



AND... no one considered Brady a 100% can't-miss prospect. He was a 6th rounder fer chrissakes. Montana was what... a 3rd?

Manning is one of the few guys I can think of offhand who was a "can't miss" guy who hasn't missed (Aikman was another). And his first year was pretty brutal. And many people thought that Leaf had even less of a miss chance than Manning.

Hooston Texan
06-16-2008, 02:34 PM
WHAT?!?!?

It doesn't exist? LOL. Whatever, dude.

I'll have a rebuttal in a second. I need to rest from laughing so hard.

Here's the short version:

Brady has won more Super Bowls than Schaub or Sage put together.

Same for Big Ben.

Same for Manning.

Heck, those Qbs have won more games and more playoff games than ours.

But "they don't exist." Riiiight.

Think a little bit on it.

So much comedy gold, so little time.

If you are going to compare the careers of Brady, Peyton and Roethliwhatever to Schaubenfels, please note that those three have been starters for almost a combined quarter-century. Schaubenfels have had the reigns of the Texans for precisely one season. So pardon them for not doing in 1 year what those other three have done in 23.

When you find that magic wand that will make one of those three materialize onto our roster (actually, I'm not convinced that I would take Big Ben over Schaub), please let me borrow it so that I can similarly enhance my bank account. Or are you one of those who thinks we might be able to swing a deal for Brady involving C.C. Brown, the rights to Tony Boselli, a fourth-round pick and a bucket of wings? Or, to put a finer point on it, for two second-rounders?

So, sure, I grant that there is such a thing as a "franchise NFL quarterback". But if you are going to define failure at the position as anything that falls below the level of Brady/Peyton, then, well, neither I nor any other QB around can help you.

GP
06-16-2008, 03:42 PM
I had to punch out a fast post and leave the house for awhile. About 5 minutes after leaving the house, I already realized I didn't communicate what I was trying to say. So much so, that I didn't even read the replies because I knew (from what I typed) that I was not on top of my game.

Back now, and here's what I am saying:

I don't think Schaub is going to become the world beater that a lot of you have desired him to be. I don't condemn (entirely) the Texans' trade for him. They needed a guy, and he was the best option at the time. But you do have to think "What could we have done with two 2nd rounders the last two years?" That's TWO starter-quality players for a team who has a lot of holes to fill in terms of just getting some t-a-l-e-n-t on the field.

And Sage coming in and doing a manageable job in Schaub's place...well, there's not a fan here who hasn't thought (at least once) "Man, two 2nd rounders for two years." Schaub, IMO, might just be about as equal to Sage as a QB can get right now. Sage didn't cost us two consecutive 2nd rounders. And in fact, a lot of fans, leading up to the draft, wanted to trade Sage away for ONE 2nd rounder. (shakes head in wonderment).

Injuries have clouded the water, and I get that. But those injuries make me think that the same result is going to happen--A woozy Schaub on the sideline with the cap pulled low, and Sage at the controls. Don't even act like it's not possible, because it happened more than once last year. And those defenses we face? Someone's going to get to him at some point, it's only a matter of time.

Color me un-inspired about our two QBs. In fact, it's got me hallucenating about Shane Boyd. And all I've seen of him is a preseason game in Arizona.

Point blank: The best Houston Texans QB to take the field is not currently on the roster yet. I'm a Texans fan, I'll be watching every Sunday, but I'm not going to pin my hopes on those two QBs.

I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.

Texecutioner
06-16-2008, 03:48 PM
We all know that Kubiak will keep Shaub as the starter. The only way that Sage comes in and gets his chance once the season starts is if Shaub is etrocious (No one wants that to happen), or if Shaub ends up getting hurt. If Shaub gets hurt for a good amount of time, then I hope it happens early so we can all see what Sage can do in a significant amount of games. Unless Shaub gets hurt though, I don't see Shaub playing bad enough to be pulled. Worst case scenario, hell be an average QB that won't be able to lead the team which is something we don't want either.

If Shaub stays healthy and Andre Johnson does as well, then don't count on seeing Sage on the field any time this season. Great backup, but he'll most likely be gone after this season. Other teams will be willing to pay for his services, and he'll definately leave if Shaub is still the starter.

GP
06-16-2008, 04:09 PM
Well you are blatantly overlooking a pretty obvious factor--the loss of a top 5 in the league WR. Remind us when that happened?--oh yeah, end of game 2. Weaker and less effective huh?--oh look at the coincidence. AJ back and Schaub goes 21 of 33 for 294 yards 8.9 ypa 2 TD's 0 INT's and a QB rating of 112.3. The facts don't agree with your perception.

Sage worked with a depleted oline that had its players shuffled all over the line, Sage was worse off with the pass protection he had in the games he played as QB than at the start of the year when Schaub was lighting it up for those first two games with a fully-loaded line, backfield, and WR unit. So don't insert the "Andre Johnson clause" into this debate, please. Poor Schaub cannot get it done unless AJ is in the game? Boo hoo. Sage didn't have Ahman Green nor the healthy line that Schaub had earlier on. Boo hoo. Makes no matter to me.

And if our QB is only as good as long as AJ is on the field, then that's a huge issue all by itself. David Carr looked pretty damn good, too, from time to time when he was tossing up jump balls to AJ for a few years. Andre Johnson makes ANY QB look better. Be sure to reference the bolded part in any reply, please. It's sorta' a huge component to this debate.

You've used the "AJ clause" before IIRC, and it sounds good on the surface...but it doesn't justify/rationalize the fact that Schaub looked less and less like the QB he was in the first game. Heck, the SECOND game was less stellar than the first (even if only a little bit). Each game, just looking at him, seemed like he was sinking a little. Only a spectacular second half vs. Panthers saved him in that game--In all actuality, he had earned a loss in that game if we set aside the homer in all of us. A Panthers special team fumble and resulting Texans TD saved that game. Give Marciano's crew the "W" in that one, IMO.

By the time of his season-ending injury, Schaub was shaky and just having a hard time stringing together the sort of game that he is PAID to have--The Chargers game was a complete joke and Schaub looked awful from the first snap. The Miami game was a telling game, IMO, because he looked good between the 20s but he looked unsure of what to do near the red zone. Kris Brown saved THAT game, that's for sure. What should have been a blow out, turned into a squeaker--Show me a good red zone possession by Schaub in that game. I don't think there is one. I was begging for someone to break a long run or catch for a TD because it was obvious that Schaub was not going to punch it into the end zone from the 20. And this is against MIAMI. Not New England. M-i-a-m-i. Yikes.

Obviously, you think Schaub is better. I won't even say that Sage is better because I don't think he is. I honestly think neither QB is going to get us to the next step. Schaub is a lot better than David Carr, and maybe fractionally better than Sage.

To me, considering all things, we have two QBs who are pretty equal in what was done last season. One more year of it, and I am predicting fans will desire the Texans FO to chase a top draft pick QB or go after an even higher-profile QB than what Schaub was in Atlanta at the time.

Sage has every right to scratch his head. He did a good enough job last season to at least be included in the conversation of "who should the starting QB be?" Competition is good, but not for the QB job. Why?

infantrycak
06-16-2008, 04:22 PM
The Miami game was a telling game, IMO, because he looked good between the 20s but he looked unsure of what to do near the red zone.

Let's see how your memory comports with the facts:

1st possession--no passing attempts inside RZ
2nd possession--never in RZ
3rd possession--never in RZ
4th possession--never in RZ
5th possession--never in RZ
6th possession--never in RZ
7th possession--never in RZ
8th possession--2 incomplete passes from 4 (set up by 24 yard pass)
9th possession--never in RZ

So you are basing your opinion on a single possession. Gotcha.

Andre Johnson makes ANY QB look better. Be sure to reference the bolded part in any reply, please. It's sorta' a huge component to this debate.

Well what you bolded is the point. Having AJ made Sage look better. Comparing one QB with AJ and one without is apples and oranges.

Obviously, you think Schaub is better.

I do, but that wasn't the point hence my not saying anything one way or the other above. The point is you were neglecting to consider a key piece of information.

Sage has every right to scratch his head. He did a good enough job last season to at least be included in the conversation of "who should the starting QB be?" Competition is good, but not for the QB job. Why?

That would be your assumption. It is just as reasonable to believe Kubiak honestly believes Schaub is clearly better.

Texanmike02
06-16-2008, 04:41 PM
I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.

Care to give me a team on which the highest paid QB isn't starting? Don't give me Brady, he came in when Bledsoe punctured a lung and the team was rolling. Don't talk about something like the Warner situation. That's the way the league works. Do you really think that it does the team any good to have half of them wanting one QB to start and the other half aligned with a second option? Did Schaub do anything to lose the job last year? Don't give me injuries... I don't think you can be assumed an injury risk after one year. EVERYONE in the NFL thinks this guy can play. The reason I would take a second rounder for Sage is not EVERYONE in the NFL is thinking this kid could be something.

With the exception of high 1st round picks who are sitting and watching, cases where there is a huge disparity in the quality of play or you have two bad QBs, the highest guy is going to play ANYWHERE.

The only thing that makes me biased for Matt is that he is younger. We'll know a lot after this year.

And you may be right, the best QB may not be on the roster yet... but if he is its not Sage.

Mike

rmartin65
06-16-2008, 04:45 PM
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.

Lucky
06-16-2008, 04:47 PM
...I am predicting fans will desire the Texans FO to chase a top draft pick QB or go after an even higher-profile QB than what Schaub was in Atlanta at the time.
Since when have the Texans capitulated to knee-jerk fans?

What's funny about Rosenfel's situation is that he would have a better chance at being traded had he sat out the camps and OTAs. Because Sage is a class act, the Texans can count on him as a valuable backup and not rocking the boat.

Gary Kubiak believes that Matt Schaub is the better QB. It's his opinion that counts and it's his job that is at stake. I doubt Kubiak is alone in the opinion in the NFL. Schaub's value was two 2nd round draft picks. And that's before he became a NFL starter. Had the Texans been offered two 2nd round draft picks for Rosenfels this offseason, some other fan board would be discussing how good Sage is/isn't.

ChampionTexan
06-16-2008, 04:50 PM
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.

Sage doesn't leave after this year - his contract runs through the '09 season. Unless someone blows the Texans socks off with an in-season trade offer, look for Sage to be dealt next off-season.

rmartin65
06-16-2008, 04:52 PM
Sage doesn't leave after this year - his contract runs through the '09 season. Unless someone blows the Texans socks off with an in-season trade offer, look for Sage to be dealt next off-season.

Oh. For some reason I thought this year was his last. Well, thanks, I guess that blows this idea out of the water.

Hooston Texan
06-16-2008, 04:59 PM
You've used the "AJ clause" before IIRC, and it sounds good on the surface...but it doesn't justify/rationalize the fact that Schaub looked less and less like the QB he was in the first game. Heck, the SECOND game was less stellar than the first (even if only a little bit). Each game, just looking at him, seemed like he was sinking a little. Only a spectacular second half vs. Panthers saved him in that game--In all actuality, he had earned a loss in that game if we set aside the homer in all of us. A Panthers special team fumble and resulting Texans TD saved that game. Give Marciano's crew the "W" in that one, IMO.



What planet were you on when you watched the Carolina game? Schaub was 20-28, 227 yards, 2TDs, no interceptions and no sacks; he was better in that game than he was against KC in week one.

After we fell behind 14-0 (thanks, in part, to a Daniels fumble), Schaub led us on 3 straight scoring drives to take a 17-14 halftime lead. It would have been 21-14 if not for a BS grounding call. On the opening possession of the third quarter, Schaub led another TD drive--24 points on four consecutive possessions. The special teams TD came on the ensuing kickoff and ended the game, but Schaub put us up by 10 points before that play.

If you believe Schaub "earned a loss" against Carolina, I can only shake my head. If that was a bad performance by Matt, then I shudder to imagine what would constitute a good performance . . .

ObsiWan
06-16-2008, 05:12 PM
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.

Brink will do his time on the practice squad; at least this year, maybe next year too.
If someone makes us a decent offer next year, Sage will be traded and Boyd will move up to #2 and Brink to #3. Or if Brink is progressing faster, he and Boyd will compete for the #2 spot.

But I find it hard to see anyone giving up a 2nd rounder for Sage just so he can be a backup. And I don't see any team making him their starter. There are other options already out there, Dilfer, Gray, Culpepper, or Leftwich for example. And if a team is in rebuild mode (see Dolphins or Falcons), they already have the youngster they're grooming for the future.

I like Sage, because he's done and said all the right things but I think his "window" is closing.

Carr Bombed
06-16-2008, 05:19 PM
I had to punch out a fast post and leave the house for awhile. About 5 minutes after leaving the house, I already realized I didn't communicate what I was trying to say. So much so, that I didn't even read the replies because I knew (from what I typed) that I was not on top of my game.

Back now, and here's what I am saying:

I don't think Schaub is going to become the world beater that a lot of you have desired him to be. I don't condemn (entirely) the Texans' trade for him. They needed a guy, and he was the best option at the time. But you do have to think "What could we have done with two 2nd rounders the last two years?" That's TWO starter-quality players for a team who has a lot of holes to fill in terms of just getting some t-a-l-e-n-t on the field.

And Sage coming in and doing a manageable job in Schaub's place...well, there's not a fan here who hasn't thought (at least once) "Man, two 2nd rounders for two years." Schaub, IMO, might just be about as equal to Sage as a QB can get right now. Sage didn't cost us two consecutive 2nd rounders. And in fact, a lot of fans, leading up to the draft, wanted to trade Sage away for ONE 2nd rounder. (shakes head in wonderment).

Injuries have clouded the water, and I get that. But those injuries make me think that the same result is going to happen--A woozy Schaub on the sideline with the cap pulled low, and Sage at the controls. Don't even act like it's not possible, because it happened more than once last year. And those defenses we face? Someone's going to get to him at some point, it's only a matter of time.

Color me un-inspired about our two QBs. In fact, it's got me hallucenating about Shane Boyd. And all I've seen of him is a preseason game in Arizona.

Point blank: The best Houston Texans QB to take the field is not currently on the roster yet. I'm a Texans fan, I'll be watching every Sunday, but I'm not going to pin my hopes on those two QBs.

I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.

Wow, by reading this post you'd think this is Minnesota or something. :gun: Seriously you act like Houston is taking the field with Kyle Boller.

Lighten up, both our QBs last year did a pretty good job. We have TWO quality QBs and last year was really their first solid year of starting experience so regardless of who we go with BOTH OF THEM still have room for improvement.

Another thing, I don't like to look back with the mindset "gee we could've had two 2nd round picks", because you don't know how those picks would've turned out. As long as we're getting talent back for picks that we give up in a trade I'm happy. Also the Schaub trade really only cost us one 2nd rounder, because with two 2nd picks.......we did get a player "with talent" back.

I mean, do you think people are questioning the Browns for trading away all those picks for Brady Quinn now that Derek Anderson came out of nowhere......no, because when you have a need, you fill it. At the time, we had a need for a new QB and we filled it........as long as my FO is filling needs on this team, I'll be happy and won't keep looking back with a "woulda shoulda coulda" attitude...........especially when they keep plucking gems out of the later rounds.

76Texan
06-16-2008, 05:23 PM
Care to give me a team on which the highest paid QB isn't starting? Don't give me Brady, he came in when Bledsoe punctured a lung and the team was rolling. Don't talk about something like the Warner situation. That's the way the league works. Do you really think that it does the team any good to have half of them wanting one QB to start and the other half aligned with a second option? Did Schaub do anything to lose the job last year? Don't give me injuries... I don't think you can be assumed an injury risk after one year. EVERYONE in the NFL thinks this guy can play. The reason I would take a second rounder for Sage is not EVERYONE in the NFL is thinking this kid could be something.

With the exception of high 1st round picks who are sitting and watching, cases where there is a huge disparity in the quality of play or you have two bad QBs, the highest guy is going to play ANYWHERE.

The only thing that makes me biased for Matt is that he is younger. We'll know a lot after this year.

And you may be right, the best QB may not be on the roster yet... but if he is its not Sage.

MikeRomo over Bledsoe in 06

ObsiWan
06-16-2008, 05:28 PM
Romo over Bledsoe in 06

but at the start of the season, Bledsoe was the #1 guy. Romo got the job because Bledsoe was a sack machine and the Cowboy line just couldn't keep him protected; Romo was/is more mobile.

Carr Bombed
06-16-2008, 05:31 PM
Romo over Bledsoe in 06

Different situation, Bledsoe was a over the hill has been on his last leg, who ended up losing his starting position midseason to a young up and comer.

76Texan
06-16-2008, 05:32 PM
True, but the Tuna was hoping Bledsoe would give him his money worth for the season!

CloakNNNdagger
06-16-2008, 05:39 PM
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.


Anybody remember Zabransky sticking for awhile while the other more establish backups were released early. With Brink even showing promise early, it would be ridiculous to feel that if Schaub goes down in week 2 or 3, Brink could lead us to anywhere but the cellar..............stupid move, while we're just now seeming to get the other pieces together.:gun:

Texanmike02
06-16-2008, 08:51 PM
Romo over Bledsoe in 06

Bledsoe played his way out of that spot. That's kind of my point. You don't bring a guy in, pay him a ton of money, and have him sit on the bench. I'll admit its backwards, but he's going to have to play his way off the field


But if you don't do it that way then you wind up with Brooks Bollinger and Chris Redman fighting to see who's the better QB because typically its QBs of that caliber that are looking for "a chance to compete".

Mike

Specnatz
06-17-2008, 07:46 AM
Let's see how your memory comports with the facts:

1st possession--no passing attempts inside RZ
2nd possession--never in RZ
3rd possession--never in RZ
4th possession--never in RZ
5th possession--never in RZ
6th possession--never in RZ
7th possession--never in RZ
8th possession--2 incomplete passes from 4 (set up by 24 yard pass)
9th possession--never in RZ

So you are basing your opinion on a single possession. Gotcha.



Well what you bolded is the point. Having AJ made Sage look better. Comparing one QB with AJ and one without is apples and oranges.



I do, but that wasn't the point hence my not saying anything one way or the other above. The point is you were neglecting to consider a key piece of information.



That would be your assumption. It is just as reasonable to believe Kubiak honestly believes Schaub is clearly better.

Since when have the Texans capitulated to knee-jerk fans?
What's funny about Rosenfel's situation is that he would have a better chance at being traded had he sat out the camps and OTAs. Because Sage is a class act, the Texans can count on him as a valuable backup and not rocking the boat.

Gary Kubiak believes that Matt Schaub is the better QB. It's his opinion that counts and it's his job that is at stake. I doubt Kubiak is alone in the opinion in the NFL. Schaub's value was two 2nd round draft picks. And that's before he became a NFL starter. Had the Texans been offered two 2nd round draft picks for Rosenfels this offseason, some other fan board would be discussing how good Sage is/isn't.

First Infantry comes in and hits a bunch of body blows and then Lucky comes in with the uppercut and knocks out GP.

Lucky you knowTexans Mgt does this hence we drafted a RB ....... errr Nevermind we drafted the stud DE that was just a workout warrior.

ObsiWan
06-17-2008, 07:52 AM
Different situation, Bledsoe was a over the hill has been on his last leg, who ended up losing his starting position midseason to a young up and comer.

not to mention that Romo "got paid" the very next year

ObsiWan
06-17-2008, 07:59 AM
Bledsoe played his way out of that spot. That's kind of my point. You don't bring a guy in, pay him a ton of money, and have him sit on the bench. I'll admit its backwards, but he's going to have to play his way off the field


But if you don't do it that way then you wind up with Brooks Bollinger and Chris Redman fighting to see who's the better QB because typically its QBs of that caliber that are looking for "a chance to compete".

Mike

Not that I agree, but I think that is the point some folks are trying to make. They don't think Matt is light-years ahead of Sage right now. And if given an even chance, Sage could win the starter spot.

Talentwise, right now, there isn't light-years difference between the two. But Matt is younger and therefore, theoretically, has more upside. Sage would have to be significantly better, which he isn't at this moment in time, to pull a Romo and bump Matt out of the starter's job.

Hooston Texan
06-17-2008, 09:48 AM
Wow, by reading this post you'd think this is Minnesota or something. :gun: Seriously you act like Houston is taking the field with Kyle Boller.

Lighten up, both our QBs last year did a pretty good job. We have TWO quality QBs and last year was really their first solid year of starting experience so regardless of who we go with BOTH OF THEM still have room for improvement.

Another thing, I don't like to look back with the mindset "gee we could've had two 2nd round picks", because you don't know how those picks would've turned out. As long as we're getting talent back for picks that we give up in a trade I'm happy. Also the Schaub trade really only cost us one 2nd rounder, because with two 2nd picks.......we did get a player "with talent" back.

I mean, do you think people are questioning the Browns for trading away all those picks for Brady Quinn now that Derek Anderson came out of nowhere......no, because when you have a need, you fill it. At the time, we had a need for a new QB and we filled it........as long as my FO is filling needs on this team, I'll be happy and won't keep looking back with a "woulda shoulda coulda" attitude...........especially when they keep plucking gems out of the later rounds.

Good post and a rep coming for you.

What interests me is a sense I get that perhaps we are over-valuing the worth of a second-round pick. I think the reason for this lies in the fact that the Texans have had exactly one second-round pick in the last five drafts. But, as it happens, we knocked that lone pick right out of the park: DeMeco Ryans. So, in some folks' minds, Schaub cost us two DeMeco's--if that's the metric, even I (the biggest Schaub homer on this board) agree that we paid too much for Matt.

But the fact is that Demeco is the exception rather than the rule for second-round picks. Certainly, you expect a good player in the second round, but to think that we gave up sure-fire future rookies-of-the-year/Pro-Bowlers is ascribing way too much worth to the pick.

Of course, it could also be that we are a bit battle-scarred over giving away/wasting second-rounders for the likes of Tony Hollings, Jason Babin and Philip Buchanon. :brickwall:

If Matt plays like Kubiak believes he is capable, then this will be the best trade the Texans have made so far.

thunderkyss
06-17-2008, 12:07 PM
I (the biggest Schaub homer on this board) agree that we paid too much for Matt.


I disagree... to a point.

We got a QB who was ready to start from day one. No way you're going to get that, in the second round, or the first round for that matter.

I criticize the deal, because I think we already had a QB that could have started for us from day one, and done just as well.

I understand some people think Sage could never get us to the Super Bowl, no knock on Matt, but I don't think our chances have greatly increased when we added him to the roster.

Thorn
06-17-2008, 12:26 PM
I understand some people think Sage could never get us to the Super Bowl, no knock on Matt, but I don't think our chances have greatly increased when we added him to the roster.

I think Schaub is better than Sage, but not two 2nd round draft choices and the millions for his contract better. But we'll all see this season what's up, and maybe our back and forth arguing on this subject will be finally cleared up.

Hooston Texan
06-17-2008, 12:32 PM
I disagree... to a point.

We got a QB who was ready to start from day one. No way you're going to get that, in the second round, or the first round for that matter.

I criticize the deal, because I think we already had a QB that could have started for us from day one, and done just as well.

I understand some people think Sage could never get us to the Super Bowl, no knock on Matt, but I don't think our chances have greatly increased when we added him to the roster.

Just so that we're on the same page: I was not saying that I think two second-rounders was too much to pay for Matt. I was only saying that two-second rounders would be too much if we were somehow guaranteed that those picks would have produced two DeMeco-caliber players. Of course, there are no such guarantees, even in the most bountiful of drafts.

b0ng
06-17-2008, 06:59 PM
Not to be harsh on GP, but what do you guys think that you are saying that's going to make him change his mind? He has been on the Sage kick since the middle of last season. It's not going to change now, and I think really the only thing left is for both QB's to prove it on the field. If GP gets his wish, Schaub will get injured and Sage will step in and win games.

If the others (seeing as how there's about 5 people arguing for Schaub and only 1 against) get their wish, Schaub isn't going to get near injured and will win games himself by being a good QB.

Nothing is going to change until one of those two things happen, so I hope you guys like typing really furiously with red faces and possibly shaking your fist.

Hooston Texan
06-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Not to be harsh on GP, but what do you guys think that you are saying that's going to make him change his mind? He has been on the Sage kick since the middle of last season. It's not going to change now, and I think really the only thing left is for both QB's to prove it on the field. If GP gets his wish, Schaub will get injured and Sage will step in and win games.

If the others (seeing as how there's about 5 people arguing for Schaub and only 1 against) get their wish, Schaub isn't going to get near injured and will win games himself by being a good QB.

Nothing is going to change until one of those two things happen, so I hope you guys like typing really furiously with red faces and possibly shaking your fist.

So why do we do it, you ask?

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

GP
06-18-2008, 08:37 AM
Not to be harsh on GP, but what do you guys think that you are saying that's going to make him change his mind? He has been on the Sage kick since the middle of last season. It's not going to change now, and I think really the only thing left is for both QB's to prove it on the field. If GP gets his wish, Schaub will get injured and Sage will step in and win games.

If the others (seeing as how there's about 5 people arguing for Schaub and only 1 against) get their wish, Schaub isn't going to get near injured and will win games himself by being a good QB.

Nothing is going to change until one of those two things happen, so I hope you guys like typing really furiously with red faces and possibly shaking your fist.

Thorn and Thunderkyss are saying the same thing I am.

I just take it a step further and say, "Schaub's going to get injured again."

I don't wish it to happen. I don't know why you would accuse me of wishing it to happen. It's just going to happen. Just as we know another Bengals player will be arrested sometime this month, just as T.O. will continue to be T.O., so will Schaub get hurt. Don't see why I'm being made out to be the devil on this.

I don't see Schaub staying healthy through the season. Schaub doing well means my team does well. But my hopes are not pinned to Matt Schaub. Not by a mile.

How many times do I have to say that I think NEITHER quarterback is good enough? They're the same guy but with different attributes.

Texanmike02
06-18-2008, 09:22 AM
Thorn and Thunderkyss are saying the same thing I am.

I just take it a step further and say, "Schaub's going to get injured again."

I don't wish it to happen. I don't know why you would accuse me of wishing it to happen. It's just going to happen. Just as we know another Bengals player will be arrested sometime this month, just as T.O. will continue to be T.O., so will Schaub get hurt. Don't see why I'm being made out to be the devil on this.

I don't see Schaub staying healthy through the season. Schaub doing well means my team does well. But my hopes are not pinned to Matt Schaub. Not by a mile.

How many times do I have to say that I think NEITHER quarterback is good enough? They're the same guy but with different attributes.


OK. So here's my question. Why do people predict injuries based on ONE year? Its a fools prediction (not that I'm calling you a fool). I mean ok... you can say that about Freddy Taylor or Griffey JR after several consecutive years on the DL. But about a guy who's had 1 year as a starter? If the line improved... and if we have a running game, wouldn't he be less likely to get hurt? Is Drob Injury prone? Look when Green came here I was critical. I said he would get hurt. But that was based on a six year history and the fact that he was turning 30.


Mike

PapaL
06-18-2008, 09:51 AM
By that thought process Green Bay should have cut Farve after his one year pain killer addiction. I mean it happened one year, it's down hill from there.

V3rm0nt3r
06-18-2008, 10:26 AM
How many times do I have to say that I think NEITHER quarterback is good enough? They're the same guy but with different attributes.

So they're the exact same thing except different by your resoning. (I love when people bring back the 3rd grade reasoning, it just clears everything up for the rest of us)

Scaub is better then Sage, and I'm a big Sage fan its just that, if Schaub can stay healthy I can't see why that chemistry seen between him and AJ in those 4 games they did play together won't be reinstated into his game (if your looking for stats AJ got 23 copletions 419 yards and 4 TD catches.

I can't disagree with the rest of your post though. I personally don't think Schaub will have a injury plagued career but seeing as Sage is still in town I tend to think that the FO still have there doubts. Sage is a good QB and should get a chance to start after this year plenty of teams have needs under center. (KC, CHI, MIN, possibly CAR if Delhomme can't stay healthy)

Specnatz
06-18-2008, 10:34 AM
Thorn and Thunderkyss are saying the same thing I am.

I just take it a step further and say, "Schaub's going to get injured again."

I don't wish it to happen. I don't know why you would accuse me of wishing it to happen. It's just going to happen. Just as we know another Bengals player will be arrested sometime this month, just as T.O. will continue to be T.O., so will Schaub get hurt. Don't see why I'm being made out to be the devil on this.

I don't see Schaub staying healthy through the season. Schaub doing well means my team does well. But my hopes are not pinned to Matt Schaub. Not by a mile.

How many times do I have to say that I think NEITHER quarterback is good enough? They're the same guy but with different attributes.

Real classy I tell ya, real classy. Wanting a QB to get hurt just so you are proven right is ... ok I will not go there but you get my meaning.

How any true fan of a team can do this is beyond my comprehention skills, can one of you genius please inlighten me on how a true fan wants the starting QB to get hurt?

Texan_Bill
06-18-2008, 10:45 AM
Real classy I tell ya, real classy. Wanting a QB to get hurt just so you are proven right is ... ok I will not go there but you get my meaning.

How any true fan of a team can do this is beyond my comprehention skills, can one of you genius please inlighten me on how a true fan wants the starting QB to get hurt?

I just take it a step further and say, "Schaub's going to get injured again."

I don't wish it to happen. I don't know why you would accuse me of wishing it to happen. It's just going to happen.

Spec, :read: GP said ^^^^ . That hardly sounds like he 'wants' it to happen.

Now with that out of the way, I question why he is sooo sure that Schaub will get hurt. Based on one season? Based on a couple of vicious shots that would have sidelined just about anyone in the league?
:gun:


Well.... just as long as "they are the same thing only different", we should be fine... :whistle:

GP
06-18-2008, 11:22 AM
I don't have any facts to back up my feelings. It's just something that I see in Matt Schaub that doesn't compute with what I see from someone like Brett Favre (whom was mentioned by another poster a few posts ago). Brett Favre is different than Schaub. The guy took a beating and still played. How many games did Brett miss? Comparing Brett to Matt is not a good comparison.

I don't hate Matt Schaub. I don't love David Carr and I certainly was glad to see him leave. And I don't think Sage is any better than Schaub. But just because I'm bold enough to say I don't worship Matt and that I don't drink a gallon of his bathwater...like everyone else is supposed to do, I guess...it makes me a creep; a guy who desires to see him get hurt. (sigh) You guys who have piled onto me have put words into my mouth on that one.

I have my opinion. I suspect others feel this way, too. But obviously by the way I'm getting roasted here on this subject there are some who aren't going to come out and voice it, as well.

And, since this is the way message boards "go," we're not going to make each other accept one another's opinions on this. All I'm saying is that I won't be shocked when some other QB is taking the snaps for us this season.

GP
06-18-2008, 11:30 AM
I get positive reps and even comments from other posters on these posts, but I don't see those same people supporting my opinions here in the open.

That says a lot about the culture or climate of this board. People see me getting bashed, and they ain't about to jump into it themselves.

Oh well. LOL. This is still the best place for Texans news and conversation, so it's where I hang out. I know that I agree with you guys on about 99% of the other stuff, I just don't see eye to eye on this one. No biggee.

Fox
06-18-2008, 11:33 AM
What worries me most about Schaub's injuries last year was that they reoccurred all season long. If you go back to the post-game quotes from last season, Kubiak mentions Schaub being 'dinged up' in one way or another from the Falcons game, when he got smacked and bruised his thigh breaking for the end zone (4th game of the year), basically through the rest of the season. It wasn't just one or two freak tackles, the guy was hurting in one way or another all year from various injuries, and it admittedly affected his play. Now, I understand that a football player is basically never 100% once the season has begun, but Schaub seemed to take more than his fair share of licks and he either couldn't stay on the field, or his play was affected when he could.

If he'd torn a ligament or some freak injury like that to start the season, I wouldn't be too overly concerned about something like that happening again. But it wasn't just a one time deal last year, it was multiple reoccurring, cumulative, lingering injuries. Schaub's still my guy, but as I said before I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that for various reasons he stays healthier this year.

b0ng
06-18-2008, 05:20 PM
I get positive reps and even comments from other posters on these posts, but I don't see those same people supporting my opinions here in the open.

That says a lot about the culture or climate of this board. People see me getting bashed, and they ain't about to jump into it themselves.

Oh well. LOL. This is still the best place for Texans news and conversation, so it's where I hang out. I know that I agree with you guys on about 99% of the other stuff, I just don't see eye to eye on this one. No biggee.

You really have a serious victims mentality here. It's you versus the board.

thunderkyss
06-18-2008, 06:18 PM
So they're the exact same thing except different by your resoning. (I love when people bring back the 3rd grade reasoning, it just clears everything up for the rest of us)

I don't know if this is fair. It's a direct insult to GP, and he definitely doesn't deserve this. His point, is that Matt & Sage are the same type of QB. & there are some similarities to their game. Neither have rocket arms, though they can both throw far enough downfield. They're both technically sound, and understand the game, and the system.



Scaub is better then Sage, and I'm a big Sage fan its just that, if Schaub can stay healthy I can't see why that chemistry seen between him and AJ in those 4 games they did play together won't be reinstated into his game (if your looking for stats AJ got 23 copletions 419 yards and 4 TD catches.

What can you point to, to say that Schaub is better than Sage?? I didn't see him play better than Sage.

I think Sage is a bit more of a Gambler, so he is more likely to force the ball, leading to more interceptions. I'm not saying Sage is in the same class a Bret Farve(it took me 16 years to actually appreciate Bret's game), but I personally don't have a problem with the gunslinger mentallity. With recievers like ours(AJ at least, Jacoby hopefully), I actually prefer it.


I can't disagree with the rest of your post though. I personally don't think Schaub will have a injury plagued career but seeing as Sage is still in town I tend to think that the FO still have there doubts. Sage is a good QB and should get a chance to start after this year plenty of teams have needs under center. (KC, CHI, MIN, possibly CAR if Delhomme can't stay healthy)

Sage being a Texan has no reflection on the FOs opinion about Matt. had the team got an offer for a second round pick, Sage would have been gone. In the next few months, if any team would put together a package that holds value to the FO, sage will be gone. If I were the Texans, I'd offer Sage for Ricky Williams straight up. Hell, I'd offer Sage, & Ahman Green for Ricky Williams.

But I have no problem seeing where GP is coming from. Matt only took a small(relatively speaking) number of hits. Two were pretty good shots, both resulted in injury.

I'm not saying he's got a glass jaw or anything, but he is definitely no man of steel.

Texecutioner
06-18-2008, 06:29 PM
I get positive reps and even comments from other posters on these posts, but I don't see those same people supporting my opinions here in the open.

That says a lot about the culture or climate of this board. People see me getting bashed, and they ain't about to jump into it themselves.

Oh well. LOL. This is still the best place for Texans news and conversation, so it's where I hang out. I know that I agree with you guys on about 99% of the other stuff, I just don't see eye to eye on this one. No biggee.

I'll openly support your opinion. I think your opinion was a very objective one, but I totally hope that you're wrong .Don't worry your not the only one that gets bashed around here for not thinking the Texans are SB bound yet?

Shaub has proven that he can be a pretty good QB. How good is the question that remains. Is Sage better? That is a good question, but I don't think Sage will ever get in the game unless Shaub is awful, and that is the last thing I want to happen. So, I'm all for hoping that they Shaub keeps the job, and plays well. It will be interesting to see what Shanahan brings to the offense.

GP
06-19-2008, 10:32 AM
You really have a serious victims mentality here. It's you versus the board.

LOL. No I don't.

I don't feed off of anything. I've seen others post similar thoughts on Sage, and there is NO replies to that person's posts (16 hours since Texecutioner's post which says he openly supports my opinion, but where's your trash talk to him?)...but I say the same thing, and you guys tee off on me. And it's happened throughout this whole debate: I say something, and four guys jump on me. Somebody else says the same thing, and it gets glossed over. LOL. Yeah, I actually DO have a victim's mentality because you guys seek me out. So, I don't think you're too far off with your assertion on that one.

You know I'll jack my jaw back at you, so you challenge me on it. In fact, you often cross the line and start ragging me on a personal level. You enjoy the arguing. And I do, too, to an extent.

I got caught up in it a few months ago, with you and Frog mostly, and I apologized to the board and said I'd back off. I've backed wayyyy off, but I make one friggin' comment on it, and try to answer the replies to my initial post, and now I'm right back in the same spot with people like you. You're just as responsible for this. You DO have the ability to ignore me, or to just NOT reply. BUt even if you ignored me, you'd still make reference to me somehow. You'd still make sure that everyone knew how you felt about me.

I've been trashed really badly. Just because I don't follow the herd. I have been here for a long time, and I always laughed at people who said "Well, I don't follow the herd." I didn't understand what that meant. Now I do. You and some others are just as inclined to try and persuade me that I am wrong, as I am to say that I'm not. I'm not following the "Schaub is the man" herd.

Right or wrong doesn't matter, we're not in a court of law and nobody's life is hanging in the balance here. This is a message board. I think. Is it?

I want to say "Thank you" to the ones who see my heart on this issue. Thunderkyss and I had some really intense, but yet respectful, arguments with each other. Bong: Were you around when those were happening? Do you remember the times he and I would go back and forth on something for pages and pages? Were you here back then? Because if you were, you'd see that I am capable of having a civil disagreement with someone. TK and I handled it the right way. But you? Well, you just love to get personal on it.

You and I just don't mix well. It's how it goes.

thunderkyss
06-19-2008, 02:05 PM
LOL. No I don't.
Thunderkyss and I had some really intense, but yet respectful, arguments with each other. Bong: Were you around when those were happening? Do you remember the times he and I would go back and forth on something for pages and pages? Were you here back then? Because if you were, you'd see that I am capable of having a civil disagreement with someone. TK and I handled it the right way. But you? Well, you just love to get personal on it.

You and I just don't mix well. It's how it goes.

Wait a minute, you're that GPSchaffer(sp)..

I change my mind, I'm now on b0ng's side.







:whip:

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 02:23 PM
So does anyone find this offensive?


Mike

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 02:59 PM
What interests me is a sense I get that perhaps we are over-valuing the worth of a second-round pick. I think the reason for this lies in the fact that the Texans have had exactly one second-round pick in the last five drafts. But, as it happens, we knocked that lone pick right out of the park: DeMeco Ryans. So, in some folks' minds, Schaub cost us two DeMeco's--if that's the metric, even I (the biggest Schaub homer on this board) agree that we paid too much for Matt.



I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.

Given those two assumptions, which I know there are those that disagree with. But give me those two assumptions for the sake of arguement. If you don't think that Sage is the long term solution look who was available in the second round after pick 17. I'll finish this later gotta take care of something but there are several guys available at that position that coudl help us more than a backup QB who I don't believe is the future. Including 2 QBs.

Mike

The Pencil Neck
06-19-2008, 03:16 PM
So does anyone find this offensive?


Mike


Yes.

76Texan
06-19-2008, 04:19 PM
I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.

Given those two assumptions, which I know there are those that disagree with. But give me those two assumptions for the sake of arguement. If you don't think that Sage is the long term solution look who was available in the second round after pick 17. I'll finish this later gotta take care of something but there are several guys available at that position that coudl help us more than a backup QB who I don't believe is the future. Including 2 QBs.

Mike
I'll give you all the assumptions.

Sage is not a great QB.
Schaub needs to stay healthy to prove his worth.

But then again, there are several teams that played the SB without a great QB.

Defense wins championship, the old saying still stands.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 05:01 PM
I'll give you all the assumptions.

Sage is not a great QB.
Schaub needs to stay healthy to prove his worth.

But then again, there are several teams that played the SB without a great QB.

Defense wins championship, the old saying still stands.

Well where I was going with that was this. There would have been more value for us in the 2nd round than Sage presented. Does anyone have any delusions that he's going to be here next year and beyond? I know it wasn't offered... but how much would you like a guy like Matt Forte? (earlier I was looking at the 26th pick instead of the 17th it would have been)

If your desire is to win as many games as possible now, and Matt gets hurt... then they're right (whoever they is)... no way you move Sage. But if your idea is build through the draft and develop a team that can be successful for the next 5-8 years.... I think if Minni offers you a 2nd you have to take it. You stand a real good chance to get a starter or a guy who plays significant minutes and contributes, possibly to a very good season. If Contributes, its to another 6 to 9 win season...

Just MHO.

Mike

76Texan
06-19-2008, 05:42 PM
Well where I was going with that was this. There would have been more value for us in the 2nd round than Sage presented. Does anyone have any delusions that he's going to be here next year and beyond? I know it wasn't offered... but how much would you like a guy like Matt Forte? (earlier I was looking at the 26th pick instead of the 17th it would have been)

If your desire is to win as many games as possible now, and Matt gets hurt... then they're right (whoever they is)... no way you move Sage. But if your idea is build through the draft and develop a team that can be successful for the next 5-8 years.... I think if Minni offers you a 2nd you have to take it. You stand a real good chance to get a starter or a guy who plays significant minutes and contributes, possibly to a very good season. If Contributes, its to another 6 to 9 win season...

Just MHO.

Mike
The two of us on the old TT board were wanting Schaub. I can't remember if you put a number on a trade. But I was only willing to give our 3rd.
(The Falcons had not received any offer higher than that! And there are only so many teams that run the WCO).

But if our FOs were willing to stick their neck out, I'd go along. Even though I still don't like the equivalent of #22 or #23 in the first round, and a big contract to go with it.

And to think that Kubiak and Smith are well familiar with a guy named Griese from the Broncos days, very talented. I don't know how he incurred all those injuries throughout his career.
Fact is when you choose your QB, you need to find out all you can about his toughness.
(I remember reading Ditka's book, how he would rather go with a guy like Jim McMahon.)

But as long as Schaub is here, I said I will support him until he shows real signs of regressing.
Same goes for Sage.
Schaub is a better fit in our offense, IMO.

But yeah, it's a business.
A second rounder from the Vikes is well worth considering.
But I wouldn't do it until I know for sure that Schaub has enough of that toughness that we're looking for. :fans:

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 05:50 PM
I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.

Sage is not the "QB of the future" that much is true. Doesnt mean we cant make a run at the playoffs or even the superbowl with Sage at the helm. If Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are superbowl quality QBs, then I dont see any reason to say Sage is not a superbowl quality quarterback.

You do realize, Sage was 4-1 as our starting quarterback. Winning 4 out of 5 games is not a bad record, if we can win at that pace the Texans would definitely be in the playoffs. So while your first assumption is rather dubious, your second assumption is downright incorrect.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 06:12 PM
Sage is not the "QB of the future" that much is true. Doesnt mean we cant make a run at the playoffs or even the superbowl with Sage at the helm. If Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are superbowl quality QBs, then I dont see any reason to say Sage is not a superbowl quality quarterback.

You do realize, Sage was 4-1 as our starting quarterback. Winning 4 out of 5 games is not a bad record, if we can win at that pace the Texans would definitely be in the playoffs. So while your first assumption is rather dubious, your second assumption is downright incorrect.

Why build for the playoffs if you want to win the superbowl? If you are building to win a playoff game or two I agree.... But there's a difference between a superbowl team and a playoff team, as many of us ol' Oilers fans know.

To bring up Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and point to their play and that of Sage and then try to somehow relate the superbowls they won to winning one with Sage is... well honestly ridiculous.Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were both seasoned veterans when they went to the SB. They had both had starting gigs at other stops. They were both game managers. Sage is not a game manager. Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes. Dilfer's job, specifically was to not screw up the hand off to Lewis. Johnson threw a little more, but he had basically the same function.

Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen live. I'm a little young to remember the Purple People eaters... I would give you the 86 bears... but they were both in some pretty elite company. Neither defense had a glaring, no neither defense had a hole in it period. We don't have that kind of defense.

I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike

Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 06:23 PM
But I wouldn't do it until I know for sure that Schaub has enough of that toughness that we're looking for. :fans:

That's the part I have a problem with. If Schaub's not the guy... I don't think Sage is either. Why keep him around? If someone gives you the option to get a piece of the puzzle you may need to improve your team, I think you trade your backup plan away for that.

Had we gone 10-6 last year, looked really good and thought we had a shot to go deep into the playoffs coming in... my attitude would be different. Sage is a steal for a team like that. But we're trying to get to that point now. And SAGE WILL NOT BE HERE NEXT YEAR.

Lets take the worst case scenario.. Schaub gets hurt play one game one (knock on wood). Then lets say Sage takes us to an 9-7 record. Now you're screwed. You can't count on Matt, you just gave Sage the best audition he could ask for on the free agent market... you have absolutely nothing (except like a 5th round compensatory pick at best). Sure, sage kept you from going 6-10. Sure you played meaningful games in December. But now you have no QB to go with that scenario.

That's the best I can explain my philosophy.

Mike

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 06:25 PM
Why build for the playoffs if you want to win the superbowl? If you are building to win a playoff game or two I agree.... But there's a difference between a superbowl team and a playoff team, as many of us ol' Oilers fans know.

To bring up Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and point to their play and that of Sage and then try to somehow relate the superbowls they won to winning one with Sage is... well honestly ridiculous.Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were both seasoned veterans when they went to the SB. They had both had starting gigs at other stops. They were both game managers. Sage is not a game manager. Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes. Dilfer's job, specifically was to not screw up the hand off to Lewis. Johnson threw a little more, but he had basically the same function.

Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen. Neither defense had a glaring, no neither defense had a hole in it period. We don't have that kind of defense.

I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike

Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....
Please dont try to dismiss Sage's success with this tactic, this has been a problem throughout his career in Houston. Oh sure he played well, but it was just preseason. Oh sure he played well, but it was in the 4th quarter vs backup players. Oh sure he won 80% of the games he started, but all those teams suck (even though 3 of the 5 teams he played were playoff teams?). And the 2 teams he beat that werent playoff teams, did happen to have some of the best pass defenses in the NFL (Oakland and Denver). The only team he lost to was the Colts, and nobody would have expected us to win that game regardless of who was quarterback.

I repeat, if Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme are good enough to get to the superbowl, so is Sage. Sure it would be great to have Manning as our QB, but you cant have an all star at every position. Sage isnt perfect and he still has some aspects to work on for sure. But he has displayed an undeniable pattern of stepping up and delivering when it matters most, in the 4th when the game is on the line. He has helped our team win games, and will continue to help our team win games. And most likely, he will continue to not get the props he deserves. But thats cool. Still, im going to set the record straight when I see him being unfairly characterized by Texans fans.

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 06:37 PM
And SAGE WILL NOT BE HERE NEXT YEAR.


he will be here next year, unless we trade him. Sage's contract runs through 2009.

thunderkyss
06-19-2008, 06:47 PM
Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes.

You're right, that takes him out of the Trent Dilfer category.... But Brad Johnson was no game manager. He actually is/was a lot like Sage. Only Sage didn't have the arm, or the height.

IMHO if you've got playmakers at the receiver position, like AJ, like hopefully Jacoby, you want a guy who will take a chance every now and again.

Think Bret Farve.... he wouldn't be the HOFer he is, had he not had Sterling Sharpe.

But that's neither here nor there.


Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen live.

Hopefully, they'll be saying this about our defense after this season.



I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike

Seriously, some good points. But I forgot what we were arguing to begin with.

Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....

Who gives a ****z?? Wins are wins, and a few more of those dopey wins would have got us into the play-offs.

I understand that you may not value a play-off appearance, if it doesn't lead to the SuperBowl. But I believe a play-off appearance(win or lose) would have worked pretty well, with all the talk Kubiak has been spewing.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 07:15 PM
Please dont try to dismiss Sage's success with this tactic, this has been a problem throughout his career in Houston. Oh sure he played well, but it was just preseason. Oh sure he played well, but it was in the 4th quarter vs backup players. Oh sure he won 80% of the games he started, but all those teams suck (even though 3 of the 5 teams he played were playoff teams?). And the 2 teams he beat that werent playoff teams, did happen to have some of the best pass defenses in the NFL (Oakland and Denver). The only team he lost to was the Colts, and nobody would have expected us to win that game regardless of who was quarterback.

I repeat, if Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme are good enough to get to the superbowl, so is Sage. Sure it would be great to have Manning as our QB, but you cant have an all star at every position. Sage isnt perfect and he still has some aspects to work on for sure. But he has displayed an undeniable pattern of stepping up and delivering when it matters most, in the 4th when the game is on the line. He has helped our team win games, and will continue to help our team win games. And most likely, he will continue to not get the props he deserves. But thats cool. Still, im going to set the record straight when I see him being unfairly characterized by Texans fans.

OK OK... lets get this straight this time.

Sage played the majority of 7 games. (Schaub threw 9 passes vs TENN in the first and 5 in the second).

His wins....

Jac.... who rested most of their people.
Den... who finished 7-9
Tampa (the only team he beat that finished over .500 and they would have been a joke in our conference 1-5 vs AFC teams)
Oakland 4 wins FOUR

His losses?
TEN - first time he was up by 4 points in the first quarter when he comes in... throws 3 ints and has a fumble... then has a miracle 1/2 of the 4th and almost wins it.
TEN - comes out to start the 2nd quarter... score tied... goes 17/30 for 185 1 and 1
INDY - This one wasn't really even close. We were out of it by half time.

In reality he doesn't havea quality win. I REFUSE to count Jac. I'll hear Tampa MAYBE.... no I won't they're a 6 win team in the AFC.

He didn't have a SINGLE good game against a team over .500.

Now onto Delhome and Grossman. Grossman only made it to the SB because the NFC has been the ugly stepchild for quite some time. NO way they get there out of the AFC.

Carolina, again, had a loaded defense... and Del Homme actually played decent that year. AGAIN NFC... do we never count the quality of the opponent? Take the rockets streak this year. They didn't beat any good teams at full strength... was the streak amazing... yes... did it mean we were legitimately a top team in the West? NO. QUALITY OF OPPONENT MATTERS.

Mike

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 07:28 PM
OK OK... lets get this straight this time.

Sage played the majority of 7 games. (Schaub threw 9 passes vs TENN in the first and 5 in the second).

His wins....

Jac.... who rested most of their people.
Den... who finished 7-9
Tampa (the only team he beat that finished over .500 and they would have been a joke in our conference 1-5 vs AFC teams)
Oakland 4 wins FOUR

His losses?
TEN - first time he was up by 4 points in the first quarter when he comes in... throws 3 ints and has a fumble... then has a miracle 1/2 of the 4th and almost wins it.
TEN - comes out to start the 2nd quarter... score tied... goes 17/30 for 185 1 and 1
INDY - This one wasn't really even close. We were out of it by half time.

In reality he doesn't havea quality win. I REFUSE to count Jac. I'll hear Tampa MAYBE.... no I won't they're a 6 win team in the AFC.

He didn't have a SINGLE good game against a team over .500.

Now onto Delhome and Grossman. Grossman only made it to the SB because the NFC has been the ugly stepchild for quite some time. NO way they get there out of the AFC.

Carolina, again, had a loaded defense... and Del Homme actually played decent that year. AGAIN NFC... do we never count the quality of the opponent? Take the rockets streak this year. They didn't beat any good teams at full strength... was the streak amazing... yes... did it mean we were legitimately a top team in the West? NO. QUALITY OF OPPONENT MATTERS.

Mike
you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.

Goldensilence
06-19-2008, 07:41 PM
you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.

Yep exceeded my expectations because I had none for him.

Mike obviously management agrees or else they would've had Sage at least compete for the spot. Obviously Kubiak whom has made some other mediocre QB's look like starters Griese, Brister at times, and Plummer under control.

This isn't even a Flutie/ Rob Johnson debate. Sage has Commander Cody 2.0 all written over him.

Mike my advice don't feed the Sage for President crowd.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 07:46 PM
I understand that you may not value a play-off appearance, if it doesn't lead to the SuperBowl. But I believe a play-off appearance(win or lose) would have worked pretty well, with all the talk Kubiak has been spewing.

Its not that I wouldn't value the opportunity to go to the playoffs. I'd love that at this point. But my job isn't to build a team. Though I like to think I could run a team... I don't.

If I were building a team... given the choice between holding onto a piece of the team that might squeek me into the playoffs if plan A didn't work... or I had the opportunity to add a player to plan A for the next several years... I'm going to add that player every time.


Now if I thought my backup might become my starter... or my team was good enough that I could win consistently with my backup.... my thinking would be different... but he won't be here after 09 (thanks for the correction)...

We've got a young team, and while winning is important... if you have a chance to build for the future... and not take away from PLAN A... then that's what you've got to do.

Mike

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 07:51 PM
Yep exceeded my expectations because I had none for him.

Mike obviously management agrees or else they would've had Sage at least compete for the spot. Obviously Kubiak whom has made some other mediocre QB's look like starters Griese, Brister at times, and Plummer under control.

I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?

This isn't even a Flutie/ Rob Johnson debate. Sage has Commander Cody 2.0 all written over him.

Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup :)

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 07:59 PM
you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.

Considering? In what sense? It was nice. The wins count. The 4th quarter comeback? NO. Hell no. What the guy plays the best 15 minutes of his life and that seriously weighs in?

Oh.. Minn... who has a need at QB... didn't think he was worth a second rounder. A second is what we were asking for. They said a 3rd.

But what are we arguing? Are you arguing that Sage should be the starter for this team? Is he your starter for the next 4 years? 5? 10? Give me a break. He is at best a stop gap guy. Schaub is at worst a stop gap guy. Maybe I was wrong about Schaub. Maybe he's not the guy we need for the next 6-10 years.... maybe. Sage, I'm convinced isn't. Defend him all you want. Count all of his wins. In fact, lets get his preseason wins too. And his college record... I think he went undefeated as a pop warner QB one year.

If you're going to count the numbers... he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. I don't care what he was overall.. he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. Nuff said. Don't try to shove the Jac win in there...that one didn't count. Not for me... You don't evaluate a guy based on what he does against a team who doesn't even care about the game.

This isn't a Schaub vs Sage debate. This is a Sage vs someone I want starting for my team.

Want an example? What did Schaub do vs Indy WITH a healthy Freeney? What did Sage do against a Indy w/o Freeney?


Mike

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 08:12 PM
I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?

Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup :)

OK... I know this isn't going to do me any good but I'll explain.

Cody was asked to throw the ball. ALOT. We had Cody throwing the ball as many as 40 times a game. The run and shoot offense was also very interception prone. I don't know if you remember much of it, but basically the QB and the receiver both had reads. Not on some plays... not like an option... and sometimes they have more than one read in one play... that is why Moon threw so many interceptions. If the QB and the receiver don't make the same read... or same two reads... wow you're in trouble..... ball might be on the other side of the field. When Moon left, Cody was expected to take over. We thought he'd be the man for a few years at least. He lasted 4 games in 94... then started one more later... I believe he was 0-5 that year...

The similarity between Cody and Sage is real. Cody played very well against bad teams. He always struggled against quality teams though. Even though this league is described as a league of parity, its not. It is a league of parity between years... but not in them. Yeah you'll have your have your exceptions, that kind of prove the rule... but in general there IS a difference between beating a bad team and a good team.

Mike

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 08:13 PM
Considering? In what sense? It was nice. The wins count. The 4th quarter comeback? NO. Hell no. What the guy plays the best 15 minutes of his life and that seriously weighs in?

If you check earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a game where Sage came in in the 4th quarter with the Dolphins down 23-3 and led his team to their biggest comeback win since 1972. 3 scoring drives in the 4th quarter, the final one which culminated in a TD pass to give his team a one point lead with 6 seconds on the clock. If you recall, in 06, Sage stepped in vs the Titans when we were down 23-3, and he threw 3 2nd half TDs to almost put the Texans on top before time expired. Then in 07, he threw 4 4th quarter TDs to put his team on top with under a minute left. Do you not see a trend emerging here? How can you excuse away good performance after good performance? Preposterous.


Oh.. Minn... who has a need at QB... didn't think he was worth a second rounder. A second is what we were asking for. They said a 3rd.
What that should tell you, is that the staff believes Sage is more valuable than a 3rd round pick.

But what are we arguing? Are you arguing that Sage should be the starter for this team? Is he your starter for the next 4 years? 5? 10? Give me a break. He is at best a stop gap guy. Schaub is at worst a stop gap guy. Maybe I was wrong about Schaub. Maybe he's not the guy we need for the next 6-10 years.... maybe. Sage, I'm convinced isn't. Defend him all you want. Count all of his wins. In fact, lets get his preseason wins too. And his college record... I think he went undefeated as a pop warner QB one year.

Im not saying Sage should be the starter over Matt. I actually have a good feeling about Matt, he reminds me of Matt Hasselbeck. What I am arguing, is that the Texans could make a playoff push with Sage as our QB.


If you're going to count the numbers... he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. I don't care what he was overall.. he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. Nuff said. Don't try to shove the Jac win in there...that one didn't count. Not for me... You don't evaluate a guy based on what he does against a team who doesn't even care about the game.

This isn't a Schaub vs Sage debate. This is a Sage vs someone I want starting for my team.

Want an example? What did Schaub do vs Indy WITH a healthy Freeney? What did Sage do against a Indy w/o Freeney?
Mike
man that is so wack. You say Sage was 1-3, but when I go to NFL.com it says he was 4-1, thats so odd. Schaub lost to Indy with a healthy Freeney. Sage lost to Indy withot a healthy Freeney. The Colts whoop our butts +90% of the time we play them. They've have our number up til this point. Doesnt mean Sage isnt a starting caliber QB.

Schaub: 4-7
Sage: 4-1

Thats the official record for the Texans 2007 season.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 08:38 PM
If you check earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a game where Sage came in in the 4th quarter with the Dolphins down 23-3 and led his team to their biggest comeback win since 1972. 3 scoring drives in the 4th quarter, the final one which culminated in a TD pass to give his team a one point lead with 6 seconds on the clock. If you recall, in 06, Sage stepped in vs the Titans when we were down 23-3, and he threw 3 2nd half TDs to almost put the Texans on top before time expired. Then in 07, he threw 4 4th quarter TDs to put his team on top with under a minute left. Do you not see a trend emerging here? How can you excuse away good performance after good performance? Preposterous.


What that should tell you, is that the staff believes Sage is more valuable than a 3rd round pick.


Im not saying Sage should be the starter over Matt. I actually have a good feeling about Matt, he reminds me of Matt Hasselbeck. What I am arguing, is that the Texans could make a playoff push with Sage as our QB.


man that is so wack. You say Sage was 1-3, but when I go to NFL.com it says he was 4-1, thats so odd. Schaub lost to Indy with a healthy Freeney. Sage lost to Indy withot a healthy Freeney. The Colts whoop our butts +90% of the time we play them. They've have our number up til this point. Doesnt mean Sage isnt a starting caliber QB.

Schaub: 4-7
Sage: 4-1

Thats the official record for the Texans 2007 season.
Schaub took the loss after he threw 5 passes... Sage threw 20 something that game.

Shaub took the loss after he threw 9 passes.... Sage threw 20 something. Sage took those games over in the first quarter well he started the second quarter in the second one.... he was tied or ahead in both of them.... and lost them both. Tell me... he plays 3/4 or more of the game... and is tied or ahead in both and you think Schaub should take the losses? Come on man give me a break. If he had won those games you'd be lauding him for them just like you are with the Miami game 2 years ago.


I do statistical analysis for a living. What a lot of people forget to do is go back and check the validity of the numbers. Especially when it doesn't suit them...

Mike

Mr PC
06-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Schaub took the loss after he threw 5 passes... Sage threw 20 something that game.

Shaub took the loss after he threw 9 passes.... Sage threw 20 something. Sage took those games over in the first quarter well he started the second quarter in the second one.... he was tied or ahead in both of them.... and lost them both. Tell me... he plays 3/4 or more of the game... and is tied or ahead in both and you think Schaub should take the losses? Come on man give me a break. If he had won those games you'd be lauding him for them just like you are with the Miami game 2 years ago.
The fact is even if you attribute those loses to Sage (despite that he didnt go into the game as the starter), he still comes away with a winning record overall. Oops.

Sage can only play the situations he is put in. And so far he has exhibited the ability to run the offense efficiently. He had too many turnovers, but his TD - INT ration wasnt bad. The games he won dont count because the teams weren't good enough (btw, all of the teams he played had top 15 pass defenses). Yet if he loses to those teams surely it would be a strike against him, even though the victory counts for nothing. Sage just cant get credit no matter what he does. As long as he puts his team in position to win, thats what really matters though, even more than respect.

Texanmike02
06-19-2008, 10:27 PM
The fact is even if you attribute those loses to Sage (despite that he didnt go into the game as the starter), he still comes away with a winning record overall. Oops.

Sage can only play the situations he is put in. And so far he has exhibited the ability to run the offense efficiently. He had too many turnovers, but his TD - INT ration wasnt bad. The games he won dont count because the teams weren't good enough (btw, all of the teams he played had top 15 pass defenses). Yet if he loses to those teams surely it would be a strike against him, even though the victory counts for nothing. Sage just cant get credit no matter what he does. As long as he puts his team in position to win, thats what really matters though, even more than respect.

Well what can I say... we just disagree. I think you have to look at how he plays against good teams and bad and take that into consideration.

Mike

ObsiWan
06-19-2008, 10:59 PM
if your QB wins against "bad" teams, i.e. wins the games he's expected to win, isn't that a plus??

Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.

After we'd opened the season with a 2-1 record and with Schaub going back to ATL for ther first time as a starter, he should have been pumped going into the ATL game. Yet he let Joey Harrington show him up.

Right now, as I've said before, Schaub was definitely two 2nd rd picks better than HWSRU, but not two picks better than Rosenfels.

:includeme:

The1ApplePie
06-19-2008, 11:13 PM
As long as Schaub is a durable as a lawn chair in a tornado, we need Sage. All the talent in the world don't mean jack if you are in the trainning room more than the field.

76Texan
06-20-2008, 12:44 AM
LOL, that was an intense fight! http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Hey Apple, waszup.
I will refrain from all that "missing you" stuff though! http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Carr Bombed
06-20-2008, 01:53 AM
Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.

After we'd opened the season with a 2-1 record and with Schaub going back to ATL for ther first time as a starter, he should have been pumped going into the ATL game. Yet he let Joey Harrington show him up.

Right now, as I've said before, Schaub was definitely two 2nd rd picks better than HWSRU, but not two picks better than Rosenfels.

:includeme:

So Schaub completing 70% of his passes (at over 11 yards per completion, so this isn't a "David Carr" stat), throwing for over 300 yards and a score is now considered "bad QBing" and not showing up.

I guess it was also Schaub's fault that Houston's defense let a crappy bust of a QB who later lost his job (aaagain...) channel the spirit of Tom Brady and complete 23 of 29 passes (seriously only 6 passes hit the turf) and 223 yards and 2 TDs

Sorry, but your argument falls under that "too much credit, too much blame" thing and I'm not buying it......maybe the defense and anything that resembled a running game should've got on the plane to Atlanta with Schaub.

I'm not one of these Schaub vs Rosenfels guys, I like both of them and I'm just happy we are lucky to have two quality QBs after 6 years of not having one. So now I'll refrain from this "Hatfield and McCoy" mudslinging contest, where posters are tearing down both QBs just to make "their guy" look better, and I'll just leave it up to the coaching staff to figure it out......after all, that's what they get paid to do.

ObsiWan
06-20-2008, 05:34 AM
So Schaub completing 70% of his passes(at over 11 yards per completion so this isn't a "David Carr" stat), throwing for over 300 yards and a score is now considered "bad QBing" and not showing up.

I guess it was also Schaub's fault that Houston's defense let a crappy bust of a QB who later lost his job (aaagain...) channel the spirit of Tom Brady and complete 23 of 29 passes (seriously only 6 passes hit the turf) and 223 yards and 2 TDs

Sorry, but your argument falls under that "too much credit, too much blame" thing and I'm not buying it......maybe the defense and anything that resembled a running game should've got on the plane to Atlanta with Schaub.

I'm not one of these Schaub vs Rosenfels guys, I like both of them and I'm just happy we are lucky to have two quality QBs after 6 years of not having one. So now I'll refrain from this "Hatfield and McCoy" mudslinging contest, where posters are tearing down both QBs just to maker "their guy" look better, and I'll just leave it up to the coaching staff to figure it out......after all, that's what they get paid to do.

I totally agree with that sentiment, we do spend a bit too much time nitpicking this or that particular stat to make our favorite guy look better. That was kind of the point of my post to illustrate that if QBs are supposed to beat "bad" teams then Schaub didn't come thru in the Atlanta game. But I don't think that makes him a poor QB. The "...therefore he should have been benched" comment was a bad attempt at sarcasm.

I completely agree that QBs get way too much credit, most of the time, for their team's success and too much blame for their team's failures.

Look, both Matt and Sage have shown they can move the ball in our system. Until someone better comes along, I'm good with either of them.

If Jake Delhomme (an undrafted "whodat" who was a backup on the Saints roster for 5 years and played in NFL Europe) was functional enough to lead a 1-15 team (that was the Panthers record the year before) thru the playoffs and to the S/B then maybe Matt and/or Sage are functional enough take us into the playoffs.

Its all about what you do when you get your shot. Assuming one gets a fair shot.

infantrycak
06-20-2008, 12:14 PM
But I was only willing to give our 3rd. (The Falcons had not received any offer higher than that! And there are only so many teams that run the WCO).

Don't know where you get that from. There were multiple reports that the Falcons had received 1st and 3rd high tender trade offers from at least two teams the year before the Texans got Schaub.

Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.

I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.

GP
06-20-2008, 02:15 PM
I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.

See, I have a problem with the "win" Schaub received vs. Miami. This is the game where I didn't feel so good about Schaub.

Looking at the play-by-play, as well as the drive chart, Schaub had a rough time of getting consistent--The lone TD was a run by Dayne. Granted, Schaub had a deep pass to Andre Davis. And he had a few intermediate throws, as well. He was also the beneficiary of a big penalty by Jason Taylor, though.

To me, the story of the game was how Kris Brown field goals saved the day on drives that stalled. I feel that a function of the QB is being able to move the chains, and Schaub just struggled mightily this game.

This is also considering we were playing a Dolphin team who won 1 game the whole year--Not exactly a team who should have given Schaub that many problems, IMO.

If Sage is worse than Schaub, there's no way Miami is able to give Schaub those sorts of fits.

All I can do is hope that the things I see in Schaub were attributed to first-year "starting QB" growing pains. He was in a new place, new faces, new style of WCO. I hope.

The Pencil Neck
06-20-2008, 02:29 PM
I've been kinda staying out of this. But... what the hell...

I like both these guys.

I don't believe the BS about a QB being able to take a team to the SB. It takes a team. A crappy QB can get to the SB and a crappy QB can win it if he's in the right team. With a better QB, you just need less help from the rest of the team. But even with a great QB, if the team is still bad or flawed, he still might never make it to a SB.

I think that either Sage or Matt can get us to the SB as long as we have the other pieces in place. Sage doesn't complete as many long passes as Matt and he's less careful with the ball, but he's also better in the red zone. Matt is great at moving the team. But sometimes he's too careful in the red zone and sometimes he makes bad decisions down there.

I think Matt has the better upside. I think he's going to be a much, much better QB than Sage. I think Sage is as good as he's going to get and I think that Matt is going to improve. So, I think that either QB can take us to the SB but I think that Matt has the better shot.

I'm not too worried about the health issue. Both QBs have been hurt although Matt's issues last year were worse than Sage's issue the year before.

On the other hand, with the way this staff drafts, it would have been nice to have those two 2nd round picks. I think Smithiak could have done a lot with them. But I'm OK with that. I think it was a good deal. And I like having both guys on the team.

76Texan
06-20-2008, 02:42 PM
Don't know where you get that from. There were multiple reports that the Falcons had received 1st and 3rd high tender trade offers from at least two teams the year before the Texans got Schaub.



I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.I remember on the Vikings board, there was a link to a newspaper in either Minneapolis or St Paul, saying that Minn offered a third. And then later (either that same newspaper or another one up there) reported that the Vikings were seriously considering offering a second.

And when the Falcons put that high tender on Schaub, that was shot down in a heartbeat.

infantrycak
06-20-2008, 02:49 PM
If Sage is worse than Schaub, there's no way Miami is able to give Schaub those sorts of fits.

You're certainly welcome to your perception of the Miami game, but that statement makes no sense. There is simply no logical connection that if the starting QB struggles in a game he can't be better than the backup--none.

He was also the beneficiary of a big penalty by Jason Taylor, though.

Was he the victim of a big penalty by Owen Daniels on the prior play? Pretty big stretch to act like you can say the effect Taylor's personal foul had on the game.

Lucky
06-20-2008, 03:01 PM
I remember on the Vikings board, there was a link to a newspaper in either Minneapolis or St Paul, saying that Minn offered a third. And then later (either that same newspaper or another one up there) reported that the Vikings were seriously considering offering a second.

Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub (http://www.footballsfuture.com/news/2007/02/vikings-will-offer-2nd-rounder-for.html)

According to the St Paul Pioneer Press (http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/16790969.htm) the Vikings will offer a second round pick and possibly Brad Johnson to the Falcons for Quarterback Matt Schaub.

If the Vikings make this offer, the Falcons would have to give it serious consideration. A high 2nd round pick would be great value for Schaub.Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.

Hooston Texan
06-20-2008, 03:07 PM
See, I have a problem with the "win" Schaub received vs. Miami. This is the game where I didn't feel so good about Schaub.


GP, earlier in this thread (post #105), you talked about how Schaub did not "earn a win" against Carolina. I had some vehement disagreement with that (post #112). I'm taking the above quote to mean that you actually intended to refer to Miami rather than Carolina.

If that's the case, I agree with you that it wasn't a really good game for Schaub even though he threw for nearly 300 yards. Frankly, it was a poor performance by everyone except Kris Brown. The running game went nowhere, penalties killed drives, Jason Taylor treated our backfield like his own private dance floor, and the defense allowed Cleo Lemen (?!?) to drive up and down the field. As pointed out earlier, we only managed to get in the red zone twice.

But when the game was there to be won, Schaub drove us 60 yards in less than ninety seconds after we were pinned to our 3. I see that game as a pitcher getting a win despite not having his best stuff. Schaub and company responded very well the next week early on at Jacksonville. We dominated the first 20 minutes of that game, but Andre Davis' terrible goalline fumble gave us little to show for it. Then Jacksonville strung together a long TD drive, a successful onside recovery, a FG drive to close the half and then another long TD drive to start the second half and the rout was on while our offense sat helplessly on the sideline.

Still, what matters is what's happening this year, not last. There was certainly good and bad to the play of both our QBs, but I think the coaches decided some time ago that Sage was not more than an very good backup QB. Schaub did not tear up the world in his first season, but he had his moments. He didn't do so hot his first year as a sometime-starter at UVA, but he took a quantum leap forward the next season. My money is on him pulling that trick again.

76Texan
06-20-2008, 03:17 PM
Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub (http://www.footballsfuture.com/news/2007/02/vikings-will-offer-2nd-rounder-for.html)

Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.Definitely not Brady Quinn.

And we have yet to find out whether Ryan will make the Falcons fans forget Vick and Schaub, or continue their cryings! :devilpig:

But the Vikings didn't do too shabby by keeping their second and took Sidney Rice.

Hooston Texan
06-20-2008, 03:23 PM
Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub (http://www.footballsfuture.com/news/2007/02/vikings-will-offer-2nd-rounder-for.html)

Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.

The Falcons have been wanting a do-over since the raid on Vick's boutique a few weeks after the trade. My guess is that they would have given us all our draft picks back plus an additional second-rounder for our troubles.

Had we not made that deal and Quinn fell to us, you are probably right. Then we'd be the one paying a fat contract (not Matt Ryan fat, but probably in the neighborhood of Schaub's) to a rookie. With no underage wunderkind to disrupt the other teams' blocking schemes.

The 2006 draft was where we started getting smart. The 2007 draft was where we started getting lucky, too.

76Texan
06-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Actually another option I mentioned was to sign Garcia and draft Kevin Kolb (who signed a 4 yr deal worth just over $4M with the Eagles.

Schaub's value (around #22-23) was more than enough to accomplish that.

I continues to support MS, I only brought this back for argument's sake! :cool:

The1ApplePie
06-20-2008, 05:39 PM
As long as one steps up

Right now both MS and Sage are just overhyped backups

The1ApplePie
06-20-2008, 05:40 PM
LOL, that was an intense fight! http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Hey Apple, waszup.
I will refrain from all that "missing you" stuff though! http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sup man?

Been working a lot lately:gun:

Goldensilence
06-20-2008, 06:13 PM
I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?

Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup :)

What I am trying to get at in the first paragraph you quoted is if management thought Sage was a viable option to go with you wouldn't have seen a trade for Matt Schaub in the first place. Which should be a burning question in the Sage for president crowd. Far as Carr goes I think his play has skewed the perceptions of a lot of fans on QB play. Wanting to compare Sage to him isn't saying much really much like those call that he's better then Rex Grossman, T. Jackson or McCown. Way to set the bar low....REAL LOW.

What at least my reference to Sage as Cody 2.0 is in relief he seems viable but as a full-time starter he's going to get exposed.

I've got the feeling this going to get beaten like is it Carr or the oline.

ObsiWan
06-20-2008, 09:42 PM
I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.

I thought I addressed what I meant when I posted this....


the point of my post to illustrate that if QBs are supposed to beat "bad" teams then Schaub didn't come thru in the Atlanta game. But I don't think that makes him a poor QB. The "...therefore he should have been benched" comment was a bad attempt at sarcasm.


To borrow a line from Lovie Smith,
"Matt Schaub is our quarterback."

I'm just fine with that.

Lucky
06-21-2008, 09:58 AM
I continues to support MS, I only brought this back for argument's sake! :cool:
I know, but I've heard these arguments before, and they don't hold true.

Garcia never had the Texans as a consideration. He visited Oakland, then flew to Tampa and signed. You can't sign someone who doesn't want to play here.

Prior to the Schaub trade, the Texans had the #39 overall pick (2nd round). The Eagles selected Kevin Kolb with the #36 pick. He would have been off the board for the Texans. Could the Texans have moved up? Maybe. But, the Eagles had moved back to the 2nd round after trading their first round pick to Dallas (#26). If the Eagles had known the Texans were interested in Kolb, they could have just sat back at #26 and taken him.

Here's the way I look at the deal. The Texans could have Matt Schaub and Amobi Okoye. Or Brady Quinn, Justin Blalock, and Fred Davis (the two players selected with the Texans 2nd round picks). I'll take Schaub and Okoye everyday of the week. Especially, on Sundays.

76Texan
06-23-2008, 02:56 PM
I know, but I've heard these arguments before, and they don't hold true.

Garcia never had the Texans as a consideration. He visited Oakland, then flew to Tampa and signed. You can't sign someone who doesn't want to play here.

While it's true that Garcia had made such a statement, it's also true that Kubiak has made this following statement when asked if no deal can get done, whether the team will be content to stay with Carr as its starting quarterback.

"That's our approach," Kubiak said. "We all have to get better. David has to get better. He's part of that. We all have to get a lot better, including this coach right here. And I have to continue working with David. He's the key to our franchise getting better."

And Rick Smith has made this following statement:
"David is our starting quarterback. We're excited about him playing in his offense."

It's not that difficult to make a case that it was all business.
The Texans FOs were posturing to try to get a trade for Carr.
Garcia and his agent were most likely trying to lure the Texans into a bidding war with the Bucs.

Considering that Garcia almost became a Texans the year before to back up Carr (for less money), it is inconceivable that Garcia would turn down at least double the $$$ "just because for some odd reason, he just doesn't like playing for the Texans".

If he considers the lowly Raiders, his agent definitely can't say that Garcia wanted to be on a winning team.

His contract with the Bucs was incentive ladden such that there was talk the Bucs purposefully hold him out of one or two late game(s) to keep him from achieving the bonus. And it's business again this season that Garcia came out to say that he wants the club to restructure his contract, and I can't blame him for doing that.

Prior to the Schaub trade, the Texans had the #39 overall pick (2nd round). The Eagles selected Kevin Kolb with the #36 pick. He would have been off the board for the Texans. Could the Texans have moved up? Maybe. But, the Eagles had moved back to the 2nd round after trading their first round pick to Dallas (#26). If the Eagles had known the Texans were interested in Kolb, they could have just sat back at #26 and taken him.

Here's the way I look at the deal. The Texans could have Matt Schaub and Amobi Okoye. Or Brady Quinn, Justin Blalock, and Fred Davis (the two players selected with the Texans 2nd round picks). I'll take Schaub and Okoye everyday of the week. Especially, on Sundays
If you're going for a franchise QB, wouldn't you do what it takes to get the guy?

The Texans did think so with the trade to obtain MS.
His worth ends up around the #22 or #23 pick (our two second rounder and a swap down in the first.)

Let's say the Texans can see that the Eagles need to find a QB and they have the #26 pick.
Our 2nd in 07counts for 510 points on the trade value chart.
Our 2nd in 08 (with the Texans "expected to finish in the bottom third or even bottom fourth"- which we will project out to be the equivalent of a high third rounder in 07, somewhere between #65 or 265 points to #74 or 220 points.
At the low end 510+220=730 points.
That's between a #24 and #25

What more, since the Falcons seems to think that need to be at #8 to get Anderson, we can swap first round pick with them to obtain a fourth, which we can use to sweeten the deal, or keep it ourselves.

Oh well, I hope I make some sense, and present that scenario as a viable alternative.
Obviously, it didn't happen!http://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

The Pencil Neck
06-23-2008, 03:23 PM
Let's say the Texans can see that the Eagles need to find a QB and they have the #26 pick.

No one saw that the Eagles were going to take a QB, let alone one that early. That was a total surprise.

Very few people expected Kolb to go that high and most of those were Houston homers. Kolb was a system QB who wasn't accustomed to being under center and had been in the same system through HS and college. There were a ton of doubts whether he could adapt to the NFL. The Eagles saw something and took a risk and it appears they got it right... but that's not for sure, yet.

That whole trading scenario seems extremely unlikely to me.

76Texan
06-23-2008, 03:40 PM
No one saw that the Eagles were going to take a QB, let alone one that early. That was a total surprise.

Very few people expected Kolb to go that high and most of those were Houston homers. Kolb was a system QB who wasn't accustomed to being under center and had been in the same system through HS and college. There were a ton of doubts whether he could adapt to the NFL. The Eagles saw something and took a risk and it appears they got it right... but that's not for sure, yet.

That whole trading scenario seems extremely unlikely to me.

Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.

Kolb had taken snaps in most of the formation imaginable in Briles' "ingeniusly crazy" scheme.
The fact that Kolb can function well in all of them, including the no huddle, all the quick pass and timing pattern, the bootleg. He ran the standard pro set, the spread, etc.

I did provide a link to Andy Reid's statement about Kolb's capacity to run the WCO.

But of course, a bird in hand is preferred. So I never bashed the FOs in the trade for Schaub. I only wants to know that they did all the homework necessary. And I still think that we pay a little more for him that I'd like. And so it was done.

Lucky
06-23-2008, 03:43 PM
Considering that Garcia almost became a Texans the year before to back up Carr (for less money)...
Huh? Where did you hear that?

76Texan
06-23-2008, 03:52 PM
Huh? Where did you hear that?
I might have saved that link on my home PC somewhere.
Dunno if I can find it, but I will try when I have a chance.
It was reported in a newspaper article (non-local).

The Pencil Neck
06-23-2008, 05:28 PM
Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.


Basically, before that draft, no one talked about the Eagles taking a pick on a QB that high. When they took it, everyone was surprised.

You can look back and say, "Oh... it was obvious they were going to use a 2nd round pick to get a backup QB when they've got lots of other needs that should probably be addressed first." But that's only because hindsight is 20-20.

That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.

76Texan
06-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Basically, before that draft, no one talked about the Eagles taking a pick on a QB that high. When they took it, everyone was surprised.

You can look back and say, "Oh... it was obvious they were going to use a 2nd round pick to get a backup QB when they've got lots of other needs that should probably be addressed first." But that's only because hindsight is 20-20.

That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.
It's more than mere speculation.
As I said, if you think a guy will feature into your future at QB, you do whatever you think it will take.

With the Falcons having pick #39 and #41, they were a strong candidate to get a QB to replace Schaub.

And then you have Miami sitting at #40 and the Vikings at #44

Just because "certain people" don't know what the GMs had in mind, does not mean that a team did not consider to draft a certain player. They do that all the time.

If the Raiders can be patient with Jamarcus Russell, so can the Eagles with Kolb.

On the other hand, there are some people who likes Brady Quinn, and there some who would not want him for anything (I'm among them.)

But the fact is we can't be sure what the GM and the HC have in mind on draft day.

Take the Dolphins for example, they took John Beck in the second last year, but still drafted Chad Henne this year. And yeah, I believe Miami has a lot of other needs.

The Pencil Neck
06-23-2008, 07:21 PM
It's more than mere speculation.
As I said, if you think a guy will feature into your future at QB, you do whatever you think it will take.

With the Falcons having pick #39 and #41, they were a strong candidate to get a QB to replace Schaub.

And then you have Miami sitting at #40 and the Vikings at #44

Just because "certain people" don't know what the GMs had in mind, does not mean that a team did not consider to draft a certain player. They do that all the time.

If the Raiders can be patient with Jamarcus Russell, so can the Eagles with Kolb.

On the other hand, there are some people who likes Brady Quinn, and there some who would not want him for anything (I'm among them.)

But the fact is we can't be sure what the GM and the HC have in mind on draft day.

Take the Dolphins for example, they took John Beck in the second last year, but still drafted Chad Henne this year. And yeah, I believe Miami has a lot of other needs.

Those are all extremely different examples from the Eagles.

The Dolphins had an FO change and taking Henne was not unexpected. A lot of people didn't take Brady Quinn even though they could have used a QB and the team that ended up taking him didn't expect Derek Anderson or Charlie Frye to be their long term answer. The Raiders QB situation was a mess, they didn't have a solid starter and Jamarcus Russell still started some games for them.

The Eagles still had their franchise QB and he was still relatively young. To use a 2nd round draft choice on a guy that's going to be your backup for a few years and may not have the skills to even do that well, was extremely risky and... weird. They're now stuck with a problem because they're almost obliged to get rid of McNabb soon and Kolb probably won't be an upgrade.

But we're drifting from what I consider the original point. And that is that us making a move for Kolb (which assumes that our staff even liked him which is a huge assumption) and trading to get in front of the Eagles to get him simply wouldn't have happened. If our FO wanted Kolb, they wouldn't have thought they needed to go up to get him.

76Texan
06-24-2008, 12:24 AM
I did give and accept that MS was the guy our FOs targeted.

1. He had the (limited) experience.
2. I agree with the thinking of trying to get things done as much as you can before the draft.
3. Kolb was not in the WCO a big chunk of the time.

But there still remains the fact that our FOs were sticking their neck out. Their job could be on the line with this single acquisition. The money we paid.

Therefore, I proposed an alternative.
1. Get Garcia (or some veteran QB) and draft a guy you think you can build for the future.
2. I would have been OK to just go with Sage (we were not going to have a "great" shot contending anyway). The main thing is to find a franchise QB.

Is MS the guy? Maybe!
It wasn't a sure thing when we traded for Matt.
It's not a sure thing now.
Even with a 100% healthy MS.
And how much did we pay for all these uncertainties?

My alternative was Kolb.
It makes quite a bit of sense when you talk both financially and potential-wise.
I never said Kolb is a cinch.
But Andy Reid is no stupid HC when it comes to QB.

What you may not realize is that even in Kolb's worst game (his freshman year against Michigan), he played pretty well, one of the very few bright spots on the team, despite what the numbers show.
If only the rest of the team can play as well as that freshman.

You may not realize that Kolb went through 3 LTs in his senior year and still ended up with 30 TDs vs 4 Ints. The story it tells is that even as he got pressured (forty something sacks if I remember correctly), he did not make the stupid mistake of just trying to force a play that would result in an Int.

You just ask Fred Bennett how fun it was playing against Kolb.

76Texan
06-24-2008, 12:38 AM
I might have saved that link on my home PC somewhere.
Dunno if I can find it, but I will try when I have a chance.
It was reported in a newspaper article (non-local).

Sorry, I did not save it.
Did not really want to go back to the past just to prove a point.
Even though a lot of times I thought maybe I should save all the links.

I don't operate on rumors.
Though I've always said my memory is not exactly the same as when I was twenty.

But I had a theory that the Texans were presenting a deal in which the agent finally decipher that, hey, you weren't forthcoming, you were trying to screw my client just the same as the Eagles or (now) the Bucs.
We gave you a good honest effort the last time.
We want you to step up if there's gonna be a deal this time.

That was what I read.
I could be totally wrong!

thunderkyss
06-24-2008, 07:06 AM
That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.

Didn't Miami take a QB 4 picks behind the Eagles?? John Beck... unless you're saying that Philly overrated Kolb.

But with McNabb missing major time for two years running, & he's not getting any younger.. I think it was a good move by the Eagles to get a QB, and start working with him.


but that's just me.


I also would have preferred to stay with Sage, and draft a young QB in the second. Hindsight and all, I think we'd have done just as well with Sage as our starter in '07, as we did with Schaub.

But I'm not bitter....... woo hoo Schaub...... I just think it was a bold move. The kind of move you make, when you see a Bret Farve sitting on somebody's bench.

I know there was talk on this board, that Schaub was the real deal. He was expected to be the big FA of that period.

I never thought that way, but it seems all those people disappeared from this forum, from CNN once we picked him up.

Vinny
06-24-2008, 08:41 AM
I don't perceive the Eagles pick as foolish (and I don't think he would have been there later in the draft for the Eagles)....they seem to realize that if you find a guy you can project as a starter you should take him and groom him for a few years as the best course to give your offense continuity. They may not want to give McNabb more money after his current contract.

Texanmike02
06-24-2008, 09:46 AM
I never thought that way, but it seems all those people disappeared from this forum, from CNN once we picked him up.

I haven't gone anywhere. I was a huge Schaub advocate. Still am. I am however more even keeled after seeing him play here. I'm not saying he can't be great, in fact I can remember the best QB in Houston football history having a rough go if it his first couple of years. Next thing you know you start seeing the best sign in sports history flashing "You've Just Been MOONed".

But I'm still here. I still like the deal. I don't hate Sage, I just think he's not the starter we need.

Mike

Goldensilence
06-24-2008, 10:01 AM
Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.

Kolb had taken snaps in most of the formation imaginable in Briles' "ingeniusly crazy" scheme.
The fact that Kolb can function well in all of them, including the no huddle, all the quick pass and timing pattern, the bootleg. He ran the standard pro set, the spread, etc.

I did provide a link to Andy Reid's statement about Kolb's capacity to run the WCO.

But of course, a bird in hand is preferred. So I never bashed the FOs in the trade for Schaub. I only wants to know that they did all the homework necessary. And I still think that we pay a little more for him that I'd like. And so it was done.

Take all the logic applied for for the bolded statement and replace Feeley with Rosenfels. McNair realized he made a mistake in the extension to Carr's contract. Daddy Shanahan nixed us making a Jake Plummer trade ironically to TB whom signed Garcia. If I remember right we even trade to make a run at...Patrick Ramsey. That to me alone says how this staff feels about Sage Rosenfels as a starter. Backup is a different story, he is a good borderline great backup.

I'm with Mike on this one. If Schaub isn't the answer at QB then it's in probably playing College ball now.

Hooston Texan
06-24-2008, 10:38 AM
I believe Smithiak acknowledged at the time that the QB question was going to decide the fate of both of their jobs. As said above, they obviously were not comfortable putting their careers in Sage's hands, and they knew they had to cut their losses with Carr.

So when you are making that type of momentous decision on a guy you have no personal experience with, you better make some calls. I'm sure Art Briles would (or did) say some wonderful things about Kolb, but if Kolb busts, then it would be hard to go to Bob McNair and explain "Well, the C-USA guy who spent most of his career coaching Friday night games said that he would be good." Compare Schaub's references: "Well, NFL guys like Al Groh and Bill Musgrave (who, incidentally, played for me with the Broncos) said that he would be good." And I mean no disrespect to Briles in that, but, by the Spring of 2007, the only QB he coached above the HS level was Kolb. So I can see Smithiak doubting whether Briles say-so was reliable enough.

Texanmike02
06-24-2008, 11:30 AM
In all honesty, Sage would be the story. You know, the underdog. He really is already. I see Sage as one of those guys who has absolutely maximized his potential, works his @55 off and doesn't quit. I have tons of respect for a guy like that but I just don't think he is the guy who takes us where we're trying to go.

Mike

thunderkyss
06-24-2008, 12:01 PM
I believe Smithiak acknowledged at the time that the QB question was going to decide the fate of both of their jobs. As said above, they obviously were not comfortable putting their careers in Sage's hands, and they knew they had to cut their losses with Carr.


& I'm fine with that, but no one said they had to have the QB of the future last off-season.

If the guy isn't out there, then in my opinion, you don't go trading away future draft picks, and give a bunch of money to a guy who could be the one.

If Smithiak thinks Schaub can be special, then that's cool, and I'll have my fingers crossed.

But if they had drafted Kolb, or Beck, and he didn't work out, it would be a much easier pill to swallow, IMHO, than the guy you brought in off the street to lead this team to a SuperBowl.

GP
06-24-2008, 12:09 PM
Take all the logic applied for for the bolded statement and replace Feeley with Rosenfels. McNair realized he made a mistake in the extension to Carr's contract. Daddy Shanahan nixed us making a Jake Plummer trade ironically to TB whom signed Garcia. If I remember right we even trade to make a run at...Patrick Ramsey. That to me alone says how this staff feels about Sage Rosenfels as a starter. Backup is a different story, he is a good borderline great backup.

I'm with Mike on this one. If Schaub isn't the answer at QB then it's in probably playing College ball now.

I really think, after this season is over, the Texans fan base is going to start making noise (more noise than usual) about drafting a round 1 or round 2 QB in the next draft.

All aspects of the team have been tinkered with, with high round picks, except QB. We went after tons of defensive players in the recent drafts, we got a round 1 OL that people have been screaming for, and we even added a 3rd round RB--THAT'S a pretty big leap for someone like Kubiak who traditionally has spent late rounders on the position.

Maybe next year is the draft where QB is addressed a lot earlier than it ever has been. Well, except for David Carr getting picked 1st overall. Doh!

The Pencil Neck
06-24-2008, 12:13 PM
Didn't Miami take a QB 4 picks behind the Eagles?? John Beck... unless you're saying that Philly overrated Kolb.

But with McNabb missing major time for two years running, & he's not getting any younger.. I think it was a good move by the Eagles to get a QB, and start working with him.

but that's just me.

I do think Philly overrated Kolb. I could be wrong but I don't think that Miami would have taken Kolb. But if he's the guy Reid wanted, great. And there may be other teams that were looking at Kolb as a high pick but I just don't remember that much buzz around him going into the draft. (Although I'll grant you that doesn't mean all that much.)

But look at Philly's position at that point, they've got their franchise guy and they've got a backup that led them to the playoffs when the franchise guy was hurt (Feeley.) They needed playmakers and they've got some other big needs on defense as well.

Instead of getting someone who could help immediately, they invested in a risky guy that may or may not transition well to the pros and definitely won't be helping them anytime soon. And they miss the playoffs for only the 3rd time in the 9 years of Reid's tenure but the 2nd time in 3 years.

If they take someone else there, maybe they make the playoffs. Maybe not. But if I'm an Eagles fan (and I am, kinda), I consider that choice a mistake... at least in the short term.

But that's just me.

beerlover
06-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Texans have gone from thinking they need an elite QB (drafting Carr #1 overall) to a system that just needs competance @ the position. Schaub fills that role as does Sage. our playmakers are @ DE, MLB, WR & hopefully RB with a strong cast of linemen on both sides of the ball. its all about winning the trenches & this year the Texans are prepared to win the war.

Sage is an important interchangeable part needed to compete for a Superbowl :trophy:

GP
06-24-2008, 05:14 PM
I do think Philly overrated Kolb. I could be wrong but I don't think that Miami would have taken Kolb. But if he's the guy Reid wanted, great. And there may be other teams that were looking at Kolb as a high pick but I just don't remember that much buzz around him going into the draft. (Although I'll grant you that doesn't mean all that much.)...

Sorta' sounds like a Duane Brown situation to me.

Maybe Reid wanted Kolb badly enough to make the reach, thinking that Miami is sitting there waiting to scoop him up.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the Philly QB situation plays out. I'm betting that Kolb is the starting QB in fairly short order. Donovan's days seem to be numbered, IMO, and I don't think Reid hangs his hat on Donovan this year.

Seems like the writing was on the wall last summer, as a matter of fact, with how chilly the air was between Reid and McNabb.

ReliantTexan
06-24-2008, 06:25 PM
I think some people are forgeting that last year was Schaub's first year in Houston and his first full season as starter .

So, he was a first time starter, coming into a new situation, new teamates,new coaches, new city etc. And after one injury plagued season some of you have already given up on him. :fans:

Personally I think we can win with MS. I think he's naturally going to get better, since he has a season under his belt with the team. I think now he understands what it takes to last a full season in the NFL.

ObsiWan
06-24-2008, 08:07 PM
Sorta' sounds like a Duane Brown situation to me.


I can see where you might make that comparison but I have to consider the guys responsible for making the respective picks. Brown was Alex Gibbs' selection - now I couldn't tell you if Duane Brown was AG's first choic (I kinda doubt it) maybe some of you guys might know. On the other hand Andy Reid picked Kolb. Reid doesn't have near the rep for developing QBs as Gibbs has for developing O-linemen.

The difference in the respective "brain trusts" is why I consider Brown less of "a reach" than Kolb was.

Carr Bombed
06-24-2008, 11:12 PM
and we even added a 3rd round RB--THAT'S a pretty big leap for someone like Kubiak who traditionally has spent late rounders on the position.

How is that a big leap? Denver (with Kubiak) drafts running backs around there all the time.

Texanmike02
06-25-2008, 12:01 AM
FWIW On NFL Radio the Adam and Gill both raved about Kolb, figuring he was not one of the elite of the draft but was RIGHT behind them only because he needed some work.

Goldensilence
06-25-2008, 01:09 AM
I really think, after this season is over, the Texans fan base is going to start making noise (more noise than usual) about drafting a round 1 or round 2 QB in the next draft.

All aspects of the team have been tinkered with, with high round picks, except QB. We went after tons of defensive players in the recent drafts, we got a round 1 OL that people have been screaming for, and we even added a 3rd round RB--THAT'S a pretty big leap for someone like Kubiak who traditionally has spent late rounders on the position.

Maybe next year is the draft where QB is addressed a lot earlier than it ever has been. Well, except for David Carr getting picked 1st overall. Doh!

Sure but that scenario is banking on Schaub not being a legit QB. Something tells me Kubiak wouldn't have made such a big leap on the trade and following contract(which i think people need to revisit the terms for it being nicely structured if we wanted to part with him after 3 years) if he didn't think Matt had all the tools to make it. That scenario includes your boy Sage not being it either.

Clinton Portis was a second round selection; Tatum Bell was too. The same could be said for some of the o-linemen Denver has selected. People's eyes get big as saucers because they see a hit in the late rounds and see great value for such late round picks when it's not always that way.

I think realistically unless Schaub proves himself fragile as Chris Chandler he's going to get three years at least here.

barrett
06-25-2008, 01:52 AM
we didn't pay schaub that much. his contract isn't as big as you think if we were to split ways after the first few years. it was a much better pick than a rookie QB for so many reasons you guys cant seem to wrap your heads around. he was in the NFL learning for three years. He was in a ZBS scheme coached by Gibbs (who Kubiak obviously intended to immulate weather Gibbs was here or not) he was the type of QB that this system wants.

i don't understand why anyone could argue that it wasn't a good deal for us. get over this shiny new QB thing and pay attention to the football trinity. these guys know what they are doing.

beerlover
06-25-2008, 02:33 AM
while I'm not ready to bust into next years draft I have taken a glimpse of next years QB class & its nothing to get excited about, lots of guys to develop. Brink will have one year ahead of all em. Sage could easily earn a starting spot in the right situation. I would think Rick & Gary have explained the situation in depth with him so he knows where he stands. It might be in everyones best interest to restructure his contract with incentive layden bonus money so he can fulfill his personel matters with still plenty of time to market his services should that 2nd rd. pick materialize (which I think it will eventually). but as I stated earlier its a great position of strength for the Texans going into this upcoming season.

haven't run this idea by anyone (since the Texans have not had this luxury) but if the game is hand why not sit Matt the last quarter so Sage can get his reps & stay sharp? keeping Matt healthier, longer into the season/playoffs..... :voodoo:

76Texan
06-25-2008, 07:57 AM
No one saw that the Eagles were going to take a QB, let alone one that early. That was a total surprise.

Very few people expected Kolb to go that high and most of those were Houston homers. Kolb was a system QB who wasn't accustomed to being under center and had been in the same system through HS and college. There were a ton of doubts whether he could adapt to the NFL. The Eagles saw something and took a risk and it appears they got it right... but that's not for sure, yet.

That whole trading scenario seems extremely unlikely to me.That is absolutely untrue.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22Kevin+Kolb%22+&sitesearch=#q=%22Kevin%20Kolb%22%20&sitesearch=&start=0

If you go through all these clips (some are duplicates, so you have to screen them out), you should find that roughly (sometimes they don't show the beginning so you can't tell where he lined up) the numbers are as followed:

11 times under center.
9 times in the shot gun.

Briles' spread offense has many plays similar to the WCO. And notice when Kolb needs to, he releases the ball very quickly.

Like I said, the Texans found a guy who's well suited for their offense in MS.
He also had a few years in the league under his belt.
Their philosophy is to get as much done before the draft as possible.

infantrycak
06-25-2008, 09:44 AM
and we even added a 3rd round RB--THAT'S a pretty big leap for someone like Kubiak who traditionally has spent late rounders on the position.

Traditionally, Kubiak never was in charge of a draft until getting to Houston. Oh and if you are going to merge Shanahan and Kubiak, they had spent two 2nd rounders in the years preceding their coming here.

Texan_Bill
06-25-2008, 10:28 AM
Traditionally, Kubiak never was in charge of a draft until getting to Houston. Oh and if you are going to merge Shanahan and Kubiak, they had spent two 2nd rounders in the years preceding their coming here.

I knew of Clinton Portis (2002), who was the other 2nd round RB??

infantrycak
06-25-2008, 10:47 AM
I knew of Clinton Portis (2002), who was the other 2nd round RB??

Tatum Bell--9th pick, 2nd round 2004.

SOLIS
06-25-2008, 11:53 AM
Traditionally, Kubiak never was in charge of a draft until getting to Houston. Oh and if you are going to merge Shanahan and Kubiak, they had spent two 2nd rounders in the years preceding their coming here.

Right. Kubiak was the OC... I'm sure he had his stand on the table moments in the war room, but during Kubiak's time in Denver the draft belonged to GMs Beake, Dahlen, and Sundquist - and of course HC Shanahan.

Carr Bombed
06-25-2008, 12:35 PM
Traditionally, Kubiak never was in charge of a draft until getting to Houston. Oh and if you are going to merge Shanahan and Kubiak, they had spent two 2nd rounders in the years preceding their coming here.

They also drafted Maurice Clarett in the 3rd round (Yeah, he was a bust, but he also was another running back taken on the first day of the draft.) Denver drafting Running backs in the top three rounds is not rare, it's actually pretty common.

barrett
06-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Like I said, the Texans found a guy who's well suited for their offense in MS.
He also had a few years in the league under his belt.
Their philosophy is to get as much done before the draft as possible.

exactly.

why are people not getting this? it's a system. the system dictates what type of player you need. he fits perfectly. and it's a major bonus that he's been in the league learning for a few years prior with the zbs wizard turning the knobs. it's the right situation. he made good decisions for the most part. especially considering that it was his first year as a starter. he got hurt. otherwise he did a really good job.

The Pencil Neck
06-25-2008, 01:52 PM
That is absolutely untrue.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22Kevin+Kolb%22+&sitesearch=#q=%22Kevin%20Kolb%22%20&sitesearch=&start=0

If you go through all these clips (some are duplicates, so you have to screen them out), you should find that roughly (sometimes they don't show the beginning so you can't tell where he lined up) the numbers are as followed:

11 times under center.
9 times in the shot gun.


According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.

dalemurphy
06-25-2008, 01:58 PM
According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.

Add to that a problem with accuracy and poor throwing mechanics and he could've been the 3rd overall pick in the '06 draft.

dalemurphy
06-25-2008, 02:01 PM
exactly.

why are people not getting this? it's a system. the system dictates what type of player you need. he fits perfectly. and it's a major bonus that he's been in the league learning for a few years prior with the zbs wizard turning the knobs. it's the right situation. he made good decisions for the most part. especially considering that it was his first year as a starter. he got hurt. otherwise he did a really good job.


Are we the only people who remember the Carolina game? You know, when we had a decent center, a threat at RB, and AJ on the field with Schaub. That was a lot of fun and something we should see a lot more of this season!

76Texan
06-26-2008, 02:53 AM
According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.
I've heard all that!
Just lemme ask you sumthing.
You'd rather have Matt Ryan at #3 under center, right?

The Pencil Neck
06-26-2008, 11:20 AM
I've heard all that!
Just lemme ask you sumthing.
You'd rather have Matt Ryan at #3 under center, right?

No. Why would I want Matt Ryan under center?

I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan at #3. Personally, I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan in the first round. I think he's got a very high bust potential. Way too many interceptions.

Lucky
06-26-2008, 11:37 AM
Matt Ryan. Kevin Kolb. Poor Sage isn't even 1st string in his own thread. :(

barrett
06-26-2008, 01:39 PM
Are we the only people who remember the Carolina game? You know, when we had a decent center, a threat at RB, and AJ on the field with Schaub. That was a lot of fun and something we should see a lot more of this season!

yeah, but schaub was an overpriced rookie. that was just luck. plus, he's not a big time kid out of college that we could stick behind center with a pretty face. that's what we really need! never mind the fact that he fits the system perfectly!

we must be, dale. we must be.

76Texan
06-28-2008, 12:54 AM
Matt Ryan. Kevin Kolb. Poor Sage isn't even 1st string in his own thread. :(

Be happy! Lots of us folks are supporting Sage!
Hey, but we can always talk other things.

Guy wants to prove something, let him step to the forefront! :kingkong: :kingkong: :kingkong:

ledzeppelin229
06-28-2008, 01:15 AM
Be happy! Lots of us folks are supporting Sage!
Hey, but we can always talk other things.

Guy wants to prove something, let him step to the forefront! :kingkong: :kingkong: :kingkong:

Is it just me or does the King Kong Trio go into some sort of cracked out hyperactive mode every now and then if you stare at it for too long?

76Texan
06-28-2008, 01:29 AM
No. Why would I want Matt Ryan under center?

I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan at #3. Personally, I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan in the first round. I think he's got a very high bust potential. Way too many interceptions.Anybody can count the Ints.
You never did tell me why you think Ryan is a "high bust potential".

I did not even hear any rebuttal about the "under center" remark.

(I just mean to talk football, never anything personal.)

So how do you think when I say that in a certain game, Ryan was in the shotgun more than he was in the normal set?
My guess is that you did not see it. How can you believe what you read more than what you see with your own eyes, I'm only asking!

To be honest, I only came back to review this game (BC/VaTech) because I have it on hand to check out Adibi and Duane Brown.
This the game the Eagles won, not the one they lost big.

Would you believe me when I say that I counted 24 snaps under center and 49 in the shotgun for Ryan?

(As usual, I don't profess to be good at counting.
Also, as I checked, a few penalties may screw that up a bit.)

I won't bother mentioning the "potential" Ints since you have that down pat!

The thing I really want to say is that Kolb is a whole hell of a lot ready for the WCO than Matt Ryan (besides being a better QB in general) based on what I observed.

If you see him play throughout the 4 years and you disagree then I would say OK, we agree to disagree.

Hey, but I'm sure I'm a homer.
I never did have a chance to tell folks about a few things I think Kolb needs to watch!
:thinking:

He's done gone anywho!

76Texan
06-28-2008, 01:31 AM
Is it just me or does the King Kong Trio go into some sort of cracked out hyperactive mode every now and then if you stare at it for too long?It's way past midnight, so I guess that contributes! :thisbig:

ledzeppelin229
06-28-2008, 01:39 AM
It's way past midnight, so I guess that contributes! :thisbig:

I hope so. All I've had tonight is Jack Daniel's.... and King Kong was tripping me out....I'm still convinced its beyond my own delusions though. It's lagging or something to create a crazy semi-frozen/cracked out effect.

76Texan
06-28-2008, 01:45 AM
Hey, I'm only drinking sissy Miller Lite, I know neither Jack nor Jill. But I do like that KingKong emoticon. It stirs something inside! :specnatz: :thisbig:

ledzeppelin229
06-28-2008, 01:50 AM
Hey, I'm only drinking sissy Miller Lite, I know neither Jack nor Jill. But I do like that KingKong emoticon. It stirs something inside! :specnatz: :thisbig:

I actually considered getting some beer...but I think I'm going to wait until tomorrow and get some to hit up the apt pool...

Mixing liquor + beer stirs up bad things inside for me...way worse than King Kong ever could. Give me one or the other and I'm good all night, but the combo does me in.

The Pencil Neck
06-28-2008, 01:06 PM
Anybody can count the Ints.
You never did tell me why you think Ryan is a "high bust potential".

I did not even hear any rebuttal about the "under center" remark.

(I just mean to talk football, never anything personal.)

So how do you think when I say that in a certain game, Ryan was in the shotgun more than he was in the normal set?
My guess is that you did not see it. How can you believe what you read more than what you see with your own eyes, I'm only asking!

To be honest, I only came back to review this game (BC/VaTech) because I have it on hand to check out Adibi and Duane Brown.
This the game the Eagles won, not the one they lost big.

Would you believe me when I say that I counted 24 snaps under center and 49 in the shotgun for Ryan?

(As usual, I don't profess to be good at counting.
Also, as I checked, a few penalties may screw that up a bit.)

I won't bother mentioning the "potential" Ints since you have that down pat!

The thing I really want to say is that Kolb is a whole hell of a lot ready for the WCO than Matt Ryan (besides being a better QB in general) based on what I observed.

If you see him play throughout the 4 years and you disagree then I would say OK, we agree to disagree.

Hey, but I'm sure I'm a homer.
I never did have a chance to tell folks about a few things I think Kolb needs to watch!
:thinking:

He's done gone anywho!

You really should break this up into separate points.

1. I think that Ryan has a high bust potential because he threw so many interceptions in college. In the pros, he's probably going to have even less separation between his receivers and the DB's. To me, interceptions that high indicate either a lack of concentration, lack of intelligence, trying to force the ball in where it shouldn't be forced in, or a lack of arm strength. Since this kids supposed to have a good arm, that leads me to think he's got some other issues that are going to make his transition to the NFL hard.

I think he was one of the better QB's in a bad QB draft class and he was taken too high. He may turn into a good QB, he may not. Picking QB's is always a crapshoot.

2. I didn't "rebut" the statement about Kolb under center because you had stated in another post that you'd seen everyone saying that he spent most of his time on the shotgun.

If you want a little taste of what I was talking about then fine. Here are a couple of the citations where draft people were worried about his lack fo footwork.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2007/draft/players/6114.html

Takes most of his snaps from the shotgun and benefits from a three-receiver system. Tends to direct his throws. Stares down the primary target.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2007/prospects/kevin_kolb.html

A big issue will be adjusting to an NFL playbook. Kolb is going to need more work lining up under center and operating out of a pro attack.

And I really don't care how much Ryan spent under center vs. Kolb. You're making a point that is irrelevant to me. That's actually a point on my side because I think Ryan was drafted way too high to begin with.

3. This whole point of this discussion is that you proposed an alternate history that was based on some questionable assumptions in an attempt to show how we could have gotten Kolb so that we could have had Kolb being groomed while Sage played. The bottom line is that if we hadn't traded for Schaub, Kolb was not going to be available with our 2nd round pick. Smithiak would have had to have been psychic to be able to determine that we needed to trade up to get Kolb and that's assuming that Smithiak even had Kolb marked as a late-first/early second round prospect which is in and of itself doubtful.

But, its pretty obvious that Smithiak did NOT have Kolb as highly ranked as you did. It's obvious that they did not think he was the man.

So your scenario is on parr with those guys that call in with those bizarre trade scenarios where teams swap weird picks and different players that have no basis in anything remotely feasible. Except that you're doing it after the fact with knowledge that people wouldn't have had.

76Texan
07-01-2008, 02:23 PM
As the draft drew nearer, several sport sites indicated that Kolb may very well be the third QB to be drafted.

I've seen as high as #20.
Adam Schefter at NFL.com had Kolb going late on the first day or early on the second day.

Where was it that I'm working with hindsight?

Soon as the Browns took Quinn at #22, if you were a GM, you ought to look at the teams and decide where you need to be to pick up the franchise QB that you're looking for.
It's a similar situation with Duane Brown, where the LTs that ranked ahead of him were all gone.
(At least that's how the Texans and I rated him.)

The following is JMO.
On another board, long before the draft, I said if one is ultra-conservative and also not a Cougar-homer that I am, a mid 40 seems fair (that is if you really study your prospects.)
I have no problem spending our 2nd.
And being the Cougar-homer that I am, I said I don't even mind if we use the original #8 pick.

The fact that the FOs decided to go with MS has nothing to do with it, because right off the bat, it eliminates this scenario.

76Texan
07-01-2008, 02:35 PM
As far as Kolb not being under center enough sounds like a fair and legitimate concern.
But if you have watched the guy for four years or if you dig deeper, the concern is not well-founded, or at least, it's not a red flag.

Even if one assumes that Kolb operated under center only half of the time, he still had 782 snaps there on passing plays.

And let's assume that the other QBs lined up under center 2/3 of the time.
Here are some comparisons:

Flacco: 625 snaps
Brohm: 790
Russell: 530
Stanton: 564
Your Royal Highness: 479
Leinart 830
T. jackson (Vikings) 656
Cutler 828
Croyle 579
T. Edwards 475
Clemens (Jets) 670

So you see, with 4 years starting, Kolb had spent plenty of time under center.

Heck, even at 50%, Kolb still had more snaps under center on passing plays than VY (718) and T. Edwards (712) had ever seen their entire collage career no matter where 'em guys lined up.

So I don't see what's the beef with "Kolb not having enough snaps under center", "Kolb needs more reps under center"???

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2008, 03:31 PM
As the draft drew nearer, several sport sites indicated that Kolb may very well be the third QB to be drafted.

I've seen as high as #20.
Adam Schefter at NFL.com had Kolb going late on the first day or early on the second day.

Where was it that I'm working with hindsight?

Soon as the Browns took Quinn at #22, if you were a GM, you ought to look at the teams and decide where you need to be to pick up the franchise QB that you're looking for.

First off, Schefter having Kolb late first day or early second day is exactly where I said he was expected to go... 3rd or 4th round.

Secondly, the hindsight is that you know where you have to trade up to to be able to get Kolb. You're saying that it was obvious that the Eagles were going to be drafting him and so you have to trade up before the Eagles to get him and I don't believe that was the case. With all the needs that the Eagles had, it was a surprise they went with a QB in the 2nd round.

IF the Texans had their sights on Kolb (which they obviously didn't) and IF they had not traded for Schaub, they probably would have thought that he'd still be there with the 7th pick (?, was it 7th) in the 2nd round. They only team they would have thought they needed to be in front of was the Dolphins.

In your scenario, the Texans would have been left without their franchise QB because he wouldn't have been there when they were picking and we'd probably have John Beck as "The Man".

But like I've said before, the whole point is moot. The Texans did not think he was "The Man". They did not target him as a guy they wanted to lead our team. Without that one essential ingredient, this is all just mental masturbation.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2008, 03:50 PM
Heck, even at 50%, Kolb still had more snaps under center on passing plays than VY (718) and T. Edwards (712) had ever seen their entire collage career no matter where 'em guys lined up.

So I don't see what's the beef with "Kolb not having enough snaps under center", "Kolb needs more reps under center"???

Well, you're pulling the 50% out of thin air. You don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I haven't gone through any of his games and counted because I don't care. Apparently, the guys that are paid to count those things thought it was less than 50% and thought that the amount of time was a problem.

Coming out of college, VY's lack of under center experience was a big concern for a lot of guys. It was a surprise when he went to the Titans instead of Leinart. Very few people really thought he'd go that high unless he went to the Texans. The Titans took a shot with VY because of his freakish athleticism and that's why he was considered first round pick... despite his college experience.

A lot of the "system" guys who spend a lot of time in the shotgun haven't translated well to the pros. VY is one of those guys (with the jury still out). I think Carr was one of those guys. The whole Jeff Tedford crew of QB failures are in that same class, iirc. And although Kolb wasn't in that exact same offense, he was in a non-standard offense and he'd been in one offense for his entire college and high school career. There were concerns that the system inflated his numbers like Tedford's system does and like the Run And Shoot did with the Coogs back in the day and there were concerns that Kolb's numbers were the same sort of phenomena. Could he operate in a pro offense? Could he learn a new offense? Was he really as good as his stats?

Just the fact that he was a QB from UH was a huge strike against him because of the track record of UH QBs.

76Texan
07-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Err my bad, when I said indication was Kolb will be the third QB taken, it meant late first round, early second round.

What with Beck at 40 and Stanton at 43.
It can't mean 2nd day for Kolb!

And I brought up the Duane Brown's situation to show that:
1. I wanted Brown.
2. I wasn't sure I'd be willing to draft him that high.
3. However, when all the other LTs (even as I don't think some of them fit our scheme) are off the boards, I now have a decision to make.
Therefore, I never said the pick was a reach.

Another point is that I've said before that if the Texans FOs want to cover all the bases before the draft, they can sign a guy like Garcia, give him a better deal than the Bucs.
Garcia was slated to make $7M if he makes all the incentives (including games played and playoff appearance), but I think he was paid quite a bit less than that.

And we don't have to lose any draft pick.

Neither Kubiak nor Smith can guarantee us fans that MS can take the Texans to the playoffs last year, or even this year.

Sure, I do like the way they operate, I openly supported Kubiak from day one.

It does not mean that I won't question his move or his coaching ability.

76Texan
07-01-2008, 04:45 PM
Well, you're pulling the 50% out of thin air. You don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I haven't gone through any of his games and counted because I don't care. Apparently, the guys that are paid to count those things thought it was less than 50% and thought that the amount of time was a problem.

Coming out of college, VY's lack of under center experience was a big concern for a lot of guys. It was a surprise when he went to the Titans instead of Leinart. Very few people really thought he'd go that high unless he went to the Texans. The Titans took a shot with VY because of his freakish athleticism and that's why he was considered first round pick... despite his college experience.

A lot of the "system" guys who spend a lot of time in the shotgun haven't translated well to the pros. VY is one of those guys (with the jury still out). I think Carr was one of those guys. The whole Jeff Tedford crew of QB failures are in that same class, iirc. And although Kolb wasn't in that exact same offense, he was in a non-standard offense and he'd been in one offense for his entire college and high school career. There were concerns that the system inflated his numbers like Tedford's system does and like the Run And Shoot did with the Coogs back in the day and there were concerns that Kolb's numbers were the same sort of phenomena. Could he operate in a pro offense? Could he learn a new offense? Was he really as good as his stats?

Just the fact that he was a QB from UH was a huge strike against him because of the track record of UH QBs.And of course, all of these concerns are very legitimate.

That is why we pay money to the scouting department.

I can tell you a few things:

If the Pats sent their offensive coordinator to work out Kolb privately (and not other QBs) tell me something.

If all these teams want to talk to Kolb to find out what kind of offense he ran, and how he ran it... that also tells me something.

I've watched him for four years. The 50% is not out of thin air.

Just like when we discussed about RBs, I said I have concern about Stewart (Oregon), Forte and Slaton, etc. running out of the shotgun quite a bit.
You know that I can tell whether Alridge or Jackie Battle did the same, and I never deny that fact.

I cannot profess that I've seen all the games, but I've seen enough to tell you that Pat White or Dixon were under center no more than Kolb. I want to say fewer times than Kolb, but one simply can't say for sure until one review every single game in their respective careers.

76Texan
07-01-2008, 05:28 PM
A lot of the "system" guys who spend a lot of time in the shotgun haven't translated well to the pros. VY is one of those guys (with the jury still out). I think Carr was one of those guys. The whole Jeff Tedford crew of QB failures are in that same class, iirc. And although Kolb wasn't in that exact same offense, he was in a non-standard offense and he'd been in one offense for his entire college and high school career. There were concerns that the system inflated his numbers like Tedford's system does and like the Run And Shoot did with the Coogs back in the day and there were concerns that Kolb's numbers were the same sort of phenomena. Could he operate in a pro offense? Could he learn a new offense? Was he really as good as his stats?

Just the fact that he was a QB from UH was a huge strike against him because of the track record of UH QBs.
As a side note, being an avid Cougars fan, I can tell you one more thing.

Neither Klinger nor Ware was high in my book.
It was Danny Davis who won us two SWC championships. He missed his junior year after an injury against Penn St. early in the season (otherwise it could have been 3 in a row.)

Guy ran the veer under Bill Yeoman (a run option offense first.)
Yet he was good enough to send a WR and a TE to the NFL.
He made good read on the option, and the Cougars also send a RB to the Pros. A balance attack.

Only Kolb surpassed him in my book even though Kolb had less success in a lesser league. Kolb simply did not have enough support all around.

maddogmrb
07-01-2008, 06:48 PM
Personally, I believe Kolb will be a star QB in the future. Wish we had 'em.

:fans:

76Texan
07-02-2008, 01:12 AM
Personally, I believe Kolb will be a star QB in the future. Wish we had 'em.

:fans:You homer! :splits: :kingkong:

maddogmrb
07-02-2008, 07:54 AM
You homer! :splits: :kingkong:


Absolutely!

Go Coogs!

UH 38, Southern 13

:texflag:

FILO_girl
07-03-2008, 10:27 AM
I think there are many things wrong with that. You can't just say they're equals because you want them to be ! One of them is the better QB! To say they're equal just sounds like someone who's been to way too many new-age parenting classes, and just doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Even if the people in charge of the decision ultimately think it's Sage, you play your best players!

Should we give Andre Davis more playing time in order to keep AJ hungry? Think the Pats ought to get Cassel in the game more to make sure Brady doesn't rest on his laurels?

One of these guys is better (Schaub), determine which one (Schaub), and then let whoever that is (Schaub) be your QB.

Way to attack the poster and not the post. :lion: If you have been around here for any length of time...you would know that doesn't fit me at all.

I don't agree Schaub is necessarily better and stated I needed to see him play more to convince myself that he is not fragile.

ChampionTexan
07-03-2008, 10:34 AM
Way to attack the poster and not the post. :lion: If you have been around here for any length of time...you would know that doesn't fit me at all.

I don't agree Schaub is necessarily better and stated I needed to see him play more to convince myself that he is not fragile.


You stated they should get equal time and be equal. I said that they shouldn't, and the idea sounded flawed and weak. That's not attacking you, that's disagreeing (or if you prefer - attacking) your suggestion.

If disagreeing (attacking) your idea is the same as attacking you, then I've attacked lots of people, and been attacked many times in return.

FILO_girl
07-03-2008, 11:02 AM
You stated they should get equal time and be equal. I said that they shouldn't, and the idea sounded flawed and weak. That's not attacking you, that's disagreeing (or if you prefer - attacking) your suggestion.

If disagreeing (attacking) your idea is the same as attacking you, then I've attacked lots of people, and been attacked many times in return.

No...I said that whoever is the best player should be the starter. No equal nothing, whoever is the best at the time should be out on the field. If we were going on your logic, Schaub would get the job regardless because he was picked to start and not based on his play. I just don't agree. My logic may be flawed in your eyes, but its how I see it. I am a survivor of the David Carr era...I am gunshy. Forgive me for this flaw.

I am not saying you are always attacking, and I knew my post would be picked apart (notice I said rip away?). There just was no need for the liberal comment as I am FARRRRRR from liberal. :aggressive: <--that is a sarcastic smilie

Texan_Bill
07-03-2008, 11:19 AM
:aggressive: <--that is a sarcastic smilie

From this day forward, one of these shall be YOUR smiley: http://www.muggleinformer.net/forums/images/smilies/balloons.gif or http://tutorialoutpost.com/files/tutorials/7851.jpg or http://forum.aeoncube.com/images/smilies/misc/smilie_balloons.gif