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Texans_Chick
06-11-2008, 04:48 PM
If you want to check out the DeMeco chat from the Chron, here it is:

DeMeco Chat (http://blogs.chron.com/fanzone/2008/06/missed_todays_chat_with_demeco_1.html)

A couple of interesting things in there. Here's what jumped out at me:

DeMeco_Ryans: Our running game is looking a lot better. You can tell by the changes Coach Gibbs has made to our running game. All of our guys are picking it up well. Chris Brown is looking the best. You can tell he is more familiar with the scheme.
. . .
Shake: From the defensive side of the ball, what specific improvements do you see in the O-line this offseason?

DeMeco_Ryans: Their techniques have been revamped. They're doing a lot more zone-blocking which will allow them to cut defensive linemen more. There are a lot faster off the ball. They do a great job of faking the run blocking when it's a pass.

I think that what I've bolded is the biggest change we will see with the offense. When I heard Kyle Shanahan speak on this subject when he first was with the team, he talked a lot about this. When he was with the Bucs, he actually tried to get Jon Gruden to change some of the offensive line blocking to make it harder to guess run versus pass.

He talked a lot about how defenses start guessing run because the blocking *feels* the same and then they get surprised by the pass and are out of position.

DiehardChris
06-11-2008, 05:02 PM
If you want to check out the DeMeco chat from the Chron, here it is:

DeMeco Chat (http://blogs.chron.com/fanzone/2008/06/missed_todays_chat_with_demeco_1.html)

A couple of interesting things in there. Here's what jumped out at me:



I think that what I've bolded is the biggest change we will see with the offense. When I heard Kyle Shanahan speak on this subject when he first was with the team, he talked a lot about this. When he was with the Bucs, he actually tried to get Jon Gruden to change some of the offensive line blocking to make it harder to guess run versus pass.

He talked a lot about how defenses start guessing run because the blocking *feels* the same and then they get surprised by the pass and are out of position.

Heh. Right after the chat I went straight to my site and posted about the very same line RE: the pass/run blocking.

Texans_Chick
06-11-2008, 05:09 PM
Heh. Right after the chat I went straight to my site and posted about the very same line RE: the pass/run blocking.


lol.

It helps that Shake asked the question. Most of the questions were foof.

DiehardChris
06-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Yeah, very much so. I asked a question about the whole perceived lack of nastiness on the Texans defense, but he didn't answer/moderator didn't forward it to him.

But as to the subject of your original post - I love that DeMeco singled out that fact about disguising their blocks. Shake's question didn't call for him to specifically reference how well they were doing that, so for a pro-bowl MLB talent like DeMeco to mention that specific detail unsolicited really makes me think Gibbs is making big early strides. He could have easily said "yeah, they look great, much better than last year, blah blah blah" but that clearly is something that has impressed him.

NBT
06-11-2008, 05:31 PM
I just hope it works and gives the QB a little more time to do his reads and go to the right man.

False Start
06-11-2008, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the link TC . Good stuff ! :jam:

Maddict5
06-11-2008, 05:50 PM
chris brown to the probowl??

new FF late rd sleeper to take perhaps?

Lucky
06-11-2008, 05:52 PM
chris brown to the probowl??

new FF late rd sleeper to take perhaps?
I think Anna Megan might have had a typo, and DeMeco meant Kris Brown.

Maddict5
06-11-2008, 06:07 PM
I think Anna Megan might have had a typo, and DeMeco meant Kris Brown.

touche...

but demeco did mention chris brown looks really good running the zone so far.. hard to say though

b0ng
06-11-2008, 06:11 PM
touche...

but demeco did mention chris brown looks really good running the zone so far.. hard to say though

It's not surprising that Chris Brown looks good in practice. It's mostly his injury history that people worry about with him.

ATXtexanfan
06-11-2008, 06:24 PM
hearing about these kind of things in the offseason gets me pumped, chris brown was a beast at colorado in this system. i hope he can stay healthy, if not, we have depth at rb.

kiwitexansfan
06-12-2008, 12:17 AM
I have been saying since we signed Brown that I expect him to start game one.... maybe I'm not always full of it...

Love that Baby Shanahan is making some changes and putting his imprint on things as well. Takes some guts to suggest/make changes with people like Gruden and Gibbs around. More power to him.

DiehardChris
06-12-2008, 01:54 AM
Personally, I don't read anything at all into the whole 'Chris Brown is looking better than all the RBs thing' for two reasons. 1 - he's got the most experience with the ZBS, and naturally would be more comfortable at this early stage. 2 - not to be a pessimist... but - no pads, no contact. I actually liked the Brown signing, but let's revisit who looks best at the end of training camp when both he and Green have taken some shots to the knees.

Ole Miss Texan
06-12-2008, 09:44 AM
Sweet! Only 87 days 2 hours and 17...scratch that.. 16 minutes till kickoff! :trophy:

hadaad
06-12-2008, 09:45 AM
I'm happy with the Chris Brown signing and if he's not starting day 1, he'll probably get a shot at some point in the season. Probably game 4 when Ahman Green is doubtful with swelling in his knee.

mexican_texan
06-12-2008, 11:26 AM
DeMeco_Ryans: Our running game is looking a lot better. You can tell by the changes Coach Gibbs has made to our running game. All of our guys are picking it up well. Chris Brown is looking the best. You can tell he is more familiar with the scheme.
I think Chris Brown will be our leading rusher. I liked him with the pre-Vince Young Titans.

DeMeco_Ryans: The Pro Bowl was a great experience. I look forward to going again but not alone. I'm looking forward to seeing Mario Andre Johnson, Chris Brown, Matt Schaubu, Dunta Robinson and Amobi Okoye and more go to Hawaii with me.
Pro Bowl, though? I think he meant Kris Brown.

76Texan
06-12-2008, 03:07 PM
I just hope it works and gives the QB a little more time to do his reads and go to the right man.
Most of the ZBS when incorporated into the passing game (I read, they call it Zone Locking) involve shorter routes. The nature of the scheme lends itself well and it helps if you have a QB that can make a quick read, and has a quick release (MS is better than Sage in this regard.)

The danger is in the drop back pass as I've given this a fair amount of thoughts. I don't know if I can elaborate it well enough, but i will try:

1. I would assume that the flow of the O-linemen more often will be to the weak side (the left), so that our TE on the strong side (the opposite side) can pick up the LDE. If we have the FB in there, he could help, or he could take on any extra defender close to the LOS on the strong side.

2. If the flow of the rampagin elephants (as Pitts referred the Olinemen in the Zone Locking scheme) is to the strong side (the right), the RDE was automatically optioned (left open) as our LT takes on the RDT.
We can have the FB faking a counter play and take on the RDE, a difficult task.
Otherwise, the QB has to be very mobile and quick in his drop.
He should be prepare to get rid of the ball when necessary, and get ready to land on his behind. Because the RDE trailing the play would see it developed.

3. Even assuming that most of the defenders bite on the fake, there's always the chance that an extra defender close to the LOS can see it and wouldn't go for the fake (besides the fact that one of the DE most likely won't).

4. Sometimes the defense dictates itself. The more defenders they have crouching the LOS, the more difficult to try the drop pass with a run fake.

5. It's also more difficult on third and long, when the defense decide to blitz.

Exhibits: Texans/Broncos game: Mario sacked Cutler, I don't know if you want your QB on his back too often like that.
Texans/Titans game: Finnegan sacked MS, causing the knee injury.
Both were on 1st and 10.

badboy
06-12-2008, 03:13 PM
Most of the ZBS when incorporated into the passing game (I read, they call it Zone Locking) involve shorter routes. The nature of the scheme lends itself well and it helps if you have a QB that can make a quick read, and has a quick release (MS is better than Sage in this regard.)

The danger is in the drop back pass as I've given this a fair amount of thoughts. I don't know if I can elaborate it well enough, but i will try:

1. I would assume that the flow of the O-linemen more often will be to the weak side (the left), so that our TE on the strong side (the opposite side) can pick up the LDE. If we have the FB in there, he could help, or he could take on any extra defender close to the LOS on the strong side.

2. If the flow of the rampagin elephants (as Pitts referred the Olinemen in the Zone Locking scheme) is to the strong side (the right), the RDE was automatically optioned (left open) as our LT takes on the RDT.
We can have the FB faking a counter play and take on the RDE, a difficult task.
Otherwise, the QB has to be very mobile and quick in his drop.
He should be prepare to get rid of the ball when necessary, and get ready to land on his behind. Because the RDE trailing the play would see it developed.

3. Even assuming that most of the defenders bite on the fake, there's always the chance that an extra defender close to the LOS can see it and wouldn't go for the fake (besides the fact that one of the DE most likely won't).

4. Sometimes the defense dictates itself. The more defenders they have crouching the LOS, the more difficult to try the drop pass with a run fake.

5. It's also more difficult on third and long, when the defense decide to blitz.

Exhibits: Texans/Broncos game: Mario sacked Cutler, I don't know if you want your QB on his back too often like that.
Texans/Titans game: Finnegan sacked MS, causing the knee injury.
Both were on 1st and 10.If the defense is crowding the line or the "box" would not the QB audible to another play?

Polo
06-12-2008, 03:29 PM
1. I would assume that the flow of the O-linemen more often will be to the weak side (the left), so that our TE on the strong side (the opposite side) can pick up the LDE. If we have the FB in there, he could help, or he could take on any extra defender close to the LOS on the strong side.


-Most of the time the QB will be faking the run one way and then rolling out to the other.

-If they are run faking to the right everyone will be initially stepping to the right.

-If the TE stays in to block instead of going out on a route he'll probably be helping out with the DE rather than being responsible for him.


In this scheme you really can't say who is responsible for who because defenders are not simulated beings. They move and in the ZBS you don't really chase defenders. If a D-lineman stunts or slants or the defense does some kind of blitz, the linemen's steps and technique should allow the puzzle pieces to fall in place.

It's kinda hard to explain, but not really....

76Texan
06-12-2008, 03:39 PM
If the defense is crowding the line or the "box" would not the QB audible to another play?
Exactly, and there goes the fake!

76Texan
06-12-2008, 03:45 PM
-Most of the time the QB will be faking the run one way and then rolling out to the other.

-If they are run faking to the right everyone will be initially stepping to the right.

-If the TE stays in to block instead of going out on a route he'll probably be helping out with the DE rather than being responsible for him.


In this scheme you really can't say who is responsible for who because defenders are not simulated beings. They move and in the ZBS you don't really chase defenders. If a D-lineman stunts or slants or the defense does some kind of blitz, the linemen's steps and technique should allow the puzzle pieces to fall in place.

It's kinda hard to explain, but not really....I have already stated that the shorter routes can be run out of a "disguised" run off the ZBS.

Anything from a quick dump pass to the flat, a screen pass, a QB roll out with one WR running a timing pattern, a naked bootleg (which can lead to a long pass play), etc.

The only thing I'm discussing here is the drop back pass.
All the defenders that anyone of our O-lineman met just happen to be in the flow of the blocking train. And if they "bite" the run fake, there shouldn't be any defensive stunting to speak of.

Polo
06-12-2008, 06:57 PM
I have already stated that the shorter routes can be run out of a "disguised" run off the ZBS.

Anything from a quick dump pass to the flat, a screen pass, a QB roll out with one WR running a timing pattern, a naked bootleg (which can lead to a long pass play), etc.

The only thing I'm discussing here is the drop back pass.
All the defenders that anyone of our O-lineman met just happen to be in the flow of the blocking train. And if they "bite" the run fake, there shouldn't be any defensive stunting to speak of.


Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...

Specnatz
06-13-2008, 09:33 AM
Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...

If you do not read how do you know where the gaps will be?

Polo
06-13-2008, 09:57 AM
If you do not read how do you know where the gaps will be?

You don't know where actual open areas will be.



When I say gaps I am talking about "A gap" "B gap"..... Or numbered holes....


When defenders stunt they attack areas/gaps....

*that doesn't mean that if they see something they are not going to react, but making the correct read is not the same thing as simply reacting...

76Texan
06-13-2008, 11:37 AM
Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...
I've never disregarded the stunt. I specifically mentioned that sometimes the defense dictates itself, that means they have decided to do certain thing regardless whether it's a pass or running play.

When they stunt, it was simply an exchange of positions of D-linemen.
Wherever they decide to penetrate they will still be met by a blocker in that train.
The same principle applies.

They key point is how to take care of the guy attacking the C gap (outside the LT).
That guy can be a DE or in case of a stunt, a DT.

There might be a LB or Safety coming on from that side as well.

For visual aid, I suggest that you review the two plays:
1. Mario sacked Cutler
2. Finnegan sacked MS
Both times were drop pass with the defender acctacking the C gap.
(In these instances, the blind side of a Right-handed QB).

76Texan
06-13-2008, 11:43 AM
And of course, this is based on a 4-3 defense.
But the same principle applies if theres a 3-4 defense instead.

Polo
06-13-2008, 12:06 PM
I've never disregarded the stunt. I specifically mentioned that sometimes the defense dictates itself, that means they have decided to do certain thing regardless whether it's a pass or running play.

When they stunt, it was simply an exchange of positions of D-linemen.


That's not completely accurate...

Stunts don't always involve D-linemen....most of them will, but LB's are often involved in stunts...









1. I would assume that the flow of the O-linemen more often will be to the weak side (the left), so that our TE on the strong side (the opposite side) can pick up the LDE. If we have the FB in there, he could help, or he could take on any extra defender close to the LOS on the strong side.


They key point is how to take care of the guy attacking the C gap (outside the LT).

These two statements are confusing in my mind....You go from talking about containing the DE on the strongside to worrying about the DE on the backside...

The O-line is going to "flow" to whatever direction the fake is in...How the defense is lined up does not determine which way the linemen are going to go in a ZBS...


I still am lost as to what you are saying....

I don't need to review any plays because I have a perect visual in my head of how the ZBS works...I'm not the guru that Alex Gibbs or anyone else that has been involved in it for years is, but I do know how it's supposed to be blocked...I played in a ZBS for 6 years counting highschool and college...

I know that different football people use differnt terminology and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here because it's not making sense to me...

When you say "drop pass" are you talking about a str8 drop back/no roll out ?

Just because a QB makes a playfake doesn't mean that it being blocked like a ZBS run play would be....

Honestly the only kind of ZBS play that the lineman are going to fake when you pass is the stretch...

Every other play action pass (besides a few special ones like the flea flicker) will be pretty generic in how it's blocked up front....

Polo
06-13-2008, 12:08 PM
And of course, this is based on a 4-3 defense.
But the same principle applies if theres a 3-4 defense instead.

The principles aren't the same....3-4 vs 4-3 completely changes your reads and what you're looking for...

76Texan
06-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Let start from the beginning, K!

Specifics:
1. Straight drop back pass.
2. I mentioned several areas that need protection, but key on the most dangerous one: The C gap, specifically when the Offensive line flow is to the right, thus leaving the gap wide open.
3. It involves a run fake to the right.
(We're talking about the ZBS scheme looking the same whether pass or run.)

The Broncos tried this exact same play the last time they were at Reliant.
They ran the ZBS and fake a run to the right.
Mario was left open and he shot through the C gap to sack Cutler and put him squarely on his back.

That is the danger I don't want to see MS or Sage go through.

The principles apply whether it's a 3-4 or 4-3, wherether the LB(s) stunt or blitz. If one LB comes up in the 3-4, he is simply regarded as another lineman for all intended purposes.
If 2 LBs come up, see my mentioning "extra defender".
We don't have to leave the main topic to get involve in a year long discussion. :scarygirl:

Polo
06-13-2008, 01:14 PM
I still don't understand what you're saying, but.....

que sera sera...

thunderkyss
06-18-2008, 06:31 PM
Let start from the beginning, K!

Specifics:
1. Straight drop back pass.
2. I mentioned several areas that need protection, but key on the most dangerous one: The C gap, specifically when the Offensive line flow is to the right, thus leaving the gap wide open.
3. It involves a run fake to the right.
(We're talking about the ZBS scheme looking the same whether pass or run.)

The Broncos tried this exact same play the last time they were at Reliant.
They ran the ZBS and fake a run to the right.
Mario was left open and he shot through the C gap to sack Cutler and put him squarely on his back.

That is the danger I don't want to see MS or Sage go through.

The principles apply whether it's a 3-4 or 4-3, wherether the LB(s) stunt or blitz. If one LB comes up in the 3-4, he is simply regarded as another lineman for all intended purposes.
If 2 LBs come up, see my mentioning "extra defender".
We don't have to leave the main topic to get involve in a year long discussion. :scarygirl:

Let's just hope that Schaub/Sage are as smart as you are, and have an eye on that "free" pass rusher, and throws it away.

The Pencil Neck
06-19-2008, 01:46 AM
Let's just hope that Schaub/Sage are as smart as you are, and have an eye on that "free" pass rusher, and throws it away.

Schaub's 1st TD to AJ against the Panthers. He knew there was going to be a free rusher but also knew he'd have time to get it to AJ. He took the hit and got the ball to AJ. That was a beauty of a play.

76Texan
06-19-2008, 02:20 PM
Oh, there's no problem with optioning a certain defender in certain situations. And surely the QBs were well drilled to make the correct decision. But in the heat of competition, we've seen that sometimes things don't turn out as planned. I'll come back with some illustration later.

That particular play you brought up, PN, falls into "the other category" that I had mentioned (quick timing pattern).

All the D-linemen were accounted for.

The LB who came up was Schaub's responsibility.
He came up on the playside where it's easier to check.

It was a short timing pattern:
Schaub let go of the ball in about one second, just a hair over.
AJ was less than 5 yards past the LOS.

thunderkyss
06-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Oh, there's no problem with optioning a certain defender in certain situations. And surely the QBs were well drilled to make the correct decision. But in the heat of competition, we've seen that sometimes things don't turn out as planned. I'll come back with some illustration later.

That particular play you brought up, PN, falls into "the other category" that I had mentioned (quick timing pattern).

All the D-linemen were accounted for.

The LB who came up was Schaub's responsibility.
He came up on the playside where it's easier to check.

It was a short timing pattern:
Schaub let go of the ball in about one second, just a hair over.
AJ was less than 5 yards past the LOS.

So ingenius play design is another option.....

I hope Shanahan and Kubiak are taking notes.

76Texan
06-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Ya know, TK, I believed it was during the Broncos/Colts game that I heard the commentator talk about how smart Cutler is. He has to digest a new playbook by Shanahan each week, and it's something like 186 pages. That Shanahan has well over a thousand plays... That Cutler has a strong arm... Accurate... Exceptional mobility... When he led his HS team to the state championship, he played both ways. I would assume that it was MLB, 'cause the guy made 19 tackles. Quite a feat.

So much for the introduction.
Now comes reality.
Broncos @ Texans again.
1st qtr 7:56 mark, 2nd and 9
Broncos in standard Power I formation.
2 wide outs. TE on the right.
C,QB,FB,RB all in a column.

Texans in 4-3.
They walk the LB (Anderson) up the weak side and show blitz.

Broncos ran the ZBS fake to the strong side with the RB.

That left Anderson one on one with Cutler who dropped back about 7 yards. Anderson was right in his face as Cutler desperately tried to make a throw across his body while backpedaling.
The FB sprang to the left, Demeco was right on him. Demeco had a hand on the ball and Cutler was on the floor.

Here's the exchange between the play by play guy and the commentator:

here's some pressure and knocked down and almost picked off it goes incomplete.

Yeah and what happens when you're a young QB, you do stupid things just like that, I mean.
You can't do this. Jay Cutler saw the pressure coming, just lob it up in the air. Really fortunate it wasn't intercepted right there. You just either take it (and run) or throw it all the way out of bound in that situation or take the sack, but that shoulda been picked.

...
Ya know, over a thousand plays in the book.
Your team is not going anywhere this season.
Why risk injury to your franchise QB on a 2nd or 3rd and long situation where you know the D will be coming.

The risk/reward is just not there, IMHO.