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NitroGSXR
05-17-2008, 06:10 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5786940.html


The Texans' receiving corps isn't nearly as good as most think it is. In fact, it is considered below average even if you rank Pro Bowler Andre Johnson among the top five wideouts in the league, which both of our scouts do.
Our guys say the 2004 and '05 starting group of Jabar Gaffney, Andre Johnson, Corey Bradford and tight end Mark Bruener barely edges the current backup crew of André Davis, Jacoby Jones, David Anderson and an older Bruener, thanks to Johnson.
What? I don't really get this. Below average with Andre Johnson? I'm really confused by this assertation. Can anyone relate to what Solomon's trying to say? I could ask him but that probably won't even garner a reply. It's tough getting writers to answer questions at times.

Actually, I'm confused by the article in its entirety. I'm not sure what he's trying to approach with the logic being implemented in there somewhere. Does anyone understand the article? Maybe an explaination? Explain it to me as if I was a six year old? Or is an explaination needed as if I was an adult?

This is just a useless article if you were to ask me? Absolutely utterly useless.

Heath Shuler
05-17-2008, 06:20 PM
I think Jerome needs to take a remedial writing class or two at a local community college. That said, I think is overall point of the article is: our current backups are better than our previous starters.

Rex King
05-17-2008, 06:35 PM
Weird. I'm getting images of Mark Bruener in parallel universes competing against himself.

Things are slow, so I guess Solomon was working his brain overtime to come up with something.:wheel:. If he were to compare the current backups with the backups from 04-05, I'm sure he'd get a laugh and a click on the other end of the line.

Goldensilence
05-17-2008, 06:42 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5786940.html


What? I don't really get this. Below average with Andre Johnson? I'm really confused by this assertation. Can anyone relate to what Solomon's trying to say? I could ask him but that probably won't even garner a reply. It's tough getting writers to answer questions at times.

Actually, I'm confused by the article in its entirety. I'm not sure what he's trying to approach with the logic being implemented in there somewhere. Does anyone understand the article? Maybe an explaination? Explain it to me as if I was a six year old? Or is an explaination needed as if I was an adult?

This is just a useless article if you were to ask me? Absolutely utterly useless.

He's trying to see if scouts think this year's current backups could beat out the '04 starters.

Dunno what who these scouts are but they can't be that good if they can't pick up on the fact that this year's receiving corps is head and shoulders above '04. I'm wondering if Dressen has the backup this year over Bruener. DD was a solid starter but taking into account the backups behind him and who we have now I'll take this year's backups too.

I would take this years backups over the starting oline in 04.

The only place I think there would be a push at is Linebacker and Dline respectively.

I think Jerome needs a second opinion from different scouts.

Hervoyel
05-17-2008, 07:30 PM
He's trying to see if scouts think this year's current backups could beat out the '04 starters.

Dunno what who these scouts are but they can't be that good if they can't pick up on the fact that this year's receiving corps is head and shoulders above '04. I'm wondering if Dressen has the backup this year over Bruener. DD was a solid starter but taking into account the backups behind him and who we have now I'll take this year's backups too.

I would take this years backups over the starting oline in 04.

The only place I think there would be a push at is Linebacker and Dline respectively.

I think Jerome needs a second opinion from different scouts.

When I read this article my first thought was "I sure hope these aren't Texans scouts he's talking to" I want to believe our scouts are a little more observant than this.

thunderkyss
05-17-2008, 08:22 PM
Andre Davis had a good year. But other than that, I don't think our Wide Recievers are as good as we think they are.

Jacoby showed flashes...... but nothing to say that he is an avg reciever. And while Walther has hands, and a stone jaw, you don't see people beating down our door to get him.

Surely, had we won a few more games, and got to the play-offs, the opinion of our WRs would have been much higher.

NitroGSXR
05-17-2008, 08:41 PM
Andre Davis had a good year. But other than that, I don't think our Wide Recievers are as good as we think they are.

Jacoby showed flashes...... but nothing to say that he is an avg reciever. And while Walther has hands, and a stone jaw, you don't see people beating down our door to get him.

Surely, had we won a few more games, and got to the play-offs, the opinion of our WRs would have been much higher.
I can maybe agree to them not being as good as we think they are somewhat but not certainly below average which is what Solomon's saying. That's simply ridiculous. For them to be considered below average, we would be needing to upgrade them somewhat. Minor upgrades sure we can throw Grice-Mullin and Harry in that bag but when someone says below average, I have to think that we'd be considering a major acquistion somewhere. I don't mean major by a number one WR but a major acquistion via FA or the draft. Neither was really a necessity this season.

TexanSam
05-17-2008, 09:04 PM
I can maybe agree to them not being as good as we think they are somewhat but not certainly below average which is what Solomon's saying. That's simply ridiculous. For them to be considered below average, we would be needing to upgrade them somewhat. Minor upgrades sure we can throw Grice-Mullin and Harry in that bag but when someone says below average, I have to think that we'd be considering a major acquistion somewhere. I don't mean major by a number one WR but a major acquistion via FA or the draft. Neither was really a necessity this season.

I agree. I have no idea how Solomon can say they are below average. We may not have one of the elite WR corps in the NFL but we certainly don't have one of the worst which is what below-average would mean. Kevin Walter is a good WR. He's not one of the best, but he does his job very well as the 2nd wideout. Andre Davis can spread the field by bringing that extra speed element and he seems to have rejuvinated his career with the Texans. Jacoby Jones is young and we still don't really know what we have in him. He looked very good in the preseason but inexperience and injuries limited him in the regular season.

Thorn
05-17-2008, 09:22 PM
The comment about the recievers is confusing. Walters, while not real speedy, is a great possession type reciever. When paired up with AJ, that's at worst, average compared to the rest of the NFL and much better than what we used to have. Andre Davis is pretty fair to middlin' and JJ will be much improved with time and coaching.

I just don't see where anyone can think this isn't our best crop of recievers in our short history.

Maddict5
05-17-2008, 09:24 PM
i think i just lost some brain cells.. agreed that jacoby needs to step up his game but the others are all playing well..

on another NFL board i frequent, there was a thread about the weakest and strongest receiving corps in the nfl. a noob said the texans had one of the weakest without andre and was roundly told off by many of the veterans of the board before i even saw the thread. in fact, we got several honorable mentions as having one of the strongest crews depth wise

TEXANRED
05-17-2008, 09:40 PM
Andre Davis had a good year. But other than that, I don't think our Wide Recievers are as good as we think they are.

Jacoby showed flashes...... but nothing to say that he is an avg reciever. And while Walther has hands, and a stone jaw, you don't see people beating down our door to get him.

Surely, had we won a few more games, and got to the play-offs, the opinion of our WRs would have been much higher.

I agree with this statement. We have no #2 WR to play with AJ. Walters is a #3 at best, good hands but slow, slightly above average route runner. Davis was signed to take Mathis' spot and Jones fell off the face of the earth.

I am holding out hope that the kid from Hawaii we picked up as a UDFA works out.

If we don't draft a WR in the first round next year I think AJ should quit.

Maddict5
05-17-2008, 09:41 PM
heres the thread for those who are interested: its a pretty knowledgeable board imo that has many guys who follow the other teams pretty closely (and in case you're wondering im the only active texan poster on the board so these are all fans of diff teams not texan fans)

The Saints are not Strong without Colston but Brees makes the others look good at times, and the Texans are the same without old Andre! But you are correct with San Fran tho they have upgraded. Or what about let's win our games with FG's Tennessee?

Walter and Davis were productive last season.

Andre has to be the best WR in the league. Schaub isn't a bad a QB either, which I guess was a little surprise that went un-noticed last season. Many we're expecting him to be second rate but fair play to the Texans. They know what they're doing.

Agreed! On a pass 1st offense like the Pats or Saints then Andre puts up silly numbers the guy is a class act!

Texans really aren't contenders to be anything close to the worst WR corps in the league. They've got a top #1 WR and Davis and Walter are both capable 2/3 types and they've got projects like Jacoby Jones who could be due for breakout seasons.

Best 5 (in no particular order):

Pats
Colts
Packers
Cowboys (although TO and Terry G are getting old and been injured)
Browns

(Honourable mention to Texans)

wr is the strongest position on the team depth wise (qb coming a close second).. just because they aren't 'big names', they dont always get their due recognition

edit: just read through the whole thread and am glad its been caught by some of the other posts...

i read an article a while back that texans wrs dropped the least amount of passes (total).. pretty impressive considering we threw for over 4000 yds (and andre missed 7 games)

Maddict5
05-17-2008, 09:45 PM
I agree with this statement. We have no #2 WR to play with AJ. Walters is a #3 at best, good hands but slow, slightly above average route runner. Davis was signed to take Mathis' spot and Jones fell off the face of the earth.

I am holding out hope that the kid from Hawaii we picked up as a UFDA works out.

If we don't draft a WR in the first round next year I think AJ should quit.



nothing like a surefire first rd wr in the draft :rolleyes: using our 1st on one of our positions of strength= success? not every team can be the cards/lions etc with two superstars. once our guys make plays to keep attention off of andre somewhat (which they have been able to do), we're set at wr

we have good guys.. and how does a slowwr who is an average route runner burn champ bailey among others. for a slow guy, he sure did make alot of big gainers last year

TEXANRED
05-17-2008, 10:01 PM
nothing like a surefire first rd wr in the draft :rolleyes: using our 1st on one of our positions of strength= success? not every team can be the cards/lions etc with two superstars. once our guys make plays to keep attention off of andre somewhat (which they have been able to do), we're set at wr

we have good guys.. and how does a slowwr who is an average route runner burn champ bailey among others. for a slow guy, he sure did make alot of big gainers last year

Walters is a lot like DD was. A hard worker that was able to find a seam or crease and exploit it but unable to break away from the defender to hit the home run.

I got spoiled growing up, I had Drew Hill, Givens, and Jefferies as my WR's. Walters = Curtis Duncan. Duncan was a great possession receiver and kept a lot of drives going for us but he was a #4 WR. A possession receiver should not be your #2 guy. They call it a skill position for a reason.

We are not the worst core in the league but nothing to fear either.

alphajoker
05-17-2008, 10:24 PM
I agree with this statement. We have no #2 WR to play with AJ. Walters is a #3 at best, good hands but slow, slightly above average route runner. Davis was signed to take Mathis' spot and Jones fell off the face of the earth.

I am holding out hope that the kid from Hawaii we picked up as a UDFA works out.

If we don't draft a WR in the first round next year I think AJ should quit.

I disagree...we do have a #2 WR to play with AJ, and his name is Owen Daniels. He's just listed as a TE.

Hardcore Texan
05-17-2008, 10:32 PM
Walters is a lot like DD was. A hard worker that was able to find a seam or crease and exploit it but unable to break away from the defender to hit the home run.

I got spoiled growing up, I had Drew Hill, Givens, and Jefferies as my WR's. Walters = Curtis Duncan. Duncan was a great possession receiver and kept a lot of drives going for us but he was a #4 WR. A possession receiver should not be your #2 guy. They call it a skill position for a reason.

We are not the worst core in the league but nothing to fear either.

I don't know about that. They really stepped up last year when AJ was hurt. On top of that our QB 1 was out for some of those games too. While we are fortunate enough to not have a huge drop off from Schaub to Sage there is a difference.

Andre Davis showed what he could do and proved to be very valuable, and that was our #3 guy at the start of the season. Walter is a very good possesion reciever as people above me stated, and gave the reasons why. If Jacoby comes along like a lot of us think he has the potential to, it will be a break out year for him. So that give us:

AJ - beast, one of the top WR in the league
Walter - posession receiver, good hands, takes tough hits
Davis - speedster, good hands
Jacoby - good #4 for sure, possible eruption this year ( i think this is going to happen)

Everyone else left to fight for the 5th spot:

David Anderson - good hands, solid depth.
Ryan Grice-Mullin - explosive, small, UFDA ( I am really pulling for this guy)
Darnell Jenkins - ??
Harry Williams - ??
LeRon McCoy - ??


And then we come to Owen Daniels, a proven target. And from everything I have read Slaton has good hands too.

Jacoby could come alive this season and bump Walter down the depth chart. Davis/Walter are pretty interchangeable as is IMO.

I think we are pretty solid a WR, and just as deep as a lot of playoff teams are, these guys can get the job done. If this team has a strong year, and I believe they will, the WR corp will be a good reason why.

Marcus
05-17-2008, 10:35 PM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:

NitroGSXR
05-17-2008, 10:38 PM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:
Hardcore spelled it right. TexanSam spelled it right. Then that quote from the other board that Maddict... that NON-TEXAN fan even spelled it right.

Oh stop it and knock off the drama. There's nothing there. Grasping at straws now, sir. Or maybe a reading class in the future?

Maddict5
05-17-2008, 10:55 PM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:

then maybe you should re-read it

only thorn and texanred called him walters.. 2 people

sweeping (and incorrect) statements FTL

NitroGSXR
05-17-2008, 10:59 PM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:

then maybe you should re-read it

only thorn and texanred called him walters.. 2 people

sweeping (and incorrect) statements FTL
Marcu is a knowlegeable fan who does not even take the time to actually read what's being said here. LMAO. Marcus is a knowledgeable fan who can't even see that Walter's name is being spelled correctly by not one, not two, but three. LMAO. Three .vs two gets us a sweeping incorrect statement from Marcus. Amazing, I tell you. LMAO.

:mshadows:

I still like you just fine, Marcus.

TEXANRED
05-17-2008, 11:22 PM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:

Most of us figure we can talk facts and opinions and let you grammer police people do the rest.:gun:

nut
05-18-2008, 12:31 AM
That article doesn't mean anything. Those pencil pushers need to write anything off the top of their head so they can get paid and/or meet a deadline. Our receiving core is nothing special anyway, other than Johnson.

ObsiWan
05-18-2008, 01:22 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5786940.html


What? I don't really get this. Below average with Andre Johnson? I'm really confused by this assertation. Can anyone relate to what Solomon's trying to say? I could ask him but that probably won't even garner a reply. It's tough getting writers to answer questions at times.

Actually, I'm confused by the article in its entirety. I'm not sure what he's trying to approach with the logic being implemented in there somewhere. Does anyone understand the article? Maybe an explaination? Explain it to me as if I was a six year old? Or is an explaination needed as if I was an adult?

This is just a useless article if you were to ask me? Absolutely utterly useless.

The point of the article is that our team has made so much progress in the past 2-3 seasons that the 2008 backups would be a better team than the 2004 or 2005 starters.

He's simply illustrating how far we've come, how much we've improved, since Smithiak have been making the personnel moves.

The only places where the older team is as good or maybe slightly better is WR, DE, and LB.

Let's look at the WRs for example -
2004/05 Starters - A.J., Jabar Gaffney, Corey Bradford.
2008 Backups - Andre Davis, Jacoby Jones, David Anderson

Since Andre Johnson is a starter on the 2004/2005 teams, that automatically gives those WR squads the edge over the Andre-less 2008 backups.

take QB -
2004/05 - David Carr
2008 backup - Sage Rosenfels
Any questions?

RB...
04/05 - Domanick Davis, Jonathan Wells, T. Hollings/V. Morency
2008 B/Us - Chris Brown, Chris Taylor, Steve Slaton
I'll take 2008, thank you.

And so it goes.

Solomon is saying we've vastly improved. That opening line is to illustrate what most of us already know - Very few folks outside of Houston Texas KNOW how good the Texans have become.

I like the article. And I agree with most of it.

To put it another way, if we made up an All-Time Texans team, how many of the 04/05 guys (that aren't still with us) would make it?

Hardcore Texan
05-18-2008, 01:29 AM
Amazing.

I just got through reading this entire thread, and not one time did anyone spell Kevin (Walter)'s name right.

Some knowledgable fans, I tell you what?:gun:

Grate phost!!!!

Thorn
05-18-2008, 08:33 AM
only thorn and texanred called him walters.. 2 people



.......and I'm old, senile, and missing a few brain cells. So I have an excuse. :neener:

mussop
05-18-2008, 10:56 AM
And from everything I have read Slaton has good hands too.

Where did you read this? I keep seeing people say this but I cant find it anywhere. Am I missing something or is everyone just assuming Slaton has good hands because so many here have proclaimed him our future "third down back". He only had 65 catches in 3 years (12, 27, 26). Not bad but not exactly special either.

I cant find it but IIRC Kubiac said Slaton needed to work on his recieving skills becuase he hadnt done much of it in college. Hell maybe im mistaken.

Goldensilence
05-18-2008, 12:01 PM
Where did you read this? I keep seeing people say this but I cant find it anywhere. Am I missing something or is everyone just assuming Slaton has good hands because so many here have proclaimed him our future "third down back". He only had 65 catches in 3 years (12, 27, 26). Not bad but not exactly special either.

I cant find it but IIRC Kubiac said Slaton needed to work on his recieving skills becuase he hadnt done much of it in college. Hell maybe im mistaken.

Got to have good hands to run the spread option like they did at West Virginia.

I love people talking about elite WR corps and being feared. Name off the elite WR corps in the NFL and how many made it to the Superbowl. The last one that I can clearly recall at this point in the morning is Indy's. Who I would probably consider at the top is Detriot, Cinci, Arizona, Indy, and Dallas. Two of those made the playoffs and one choked with homefleld advantage.

I don't mind not having an elite WR corps because I think we have something much more important with ours. We have a group of WRs that fit what we're wanting to do offensively. Sure the over the top bomb is great fun to watch but what really breaks defenses backs is repeated third down conversions that sustain long drives.

Some parts of this team might not jump off the board at you with instant recognition but stepping back they're part of a balanced approach to football. Those are the teams that keep sustained success.

Brando
05-18-2008, 12:10 PM
To me he is basically saying that we have developed depth over the 2005 club. Our 2008 back-ups would beat out 2005 starters is almost a given.

The offensive side.....

Sage over David Carr. Easy Decision, I think I would rather have Quinn Gray start over David Carr.

Brown, Taylor and Slaton over D.Davis(Williams), Jonathan Wells and Vernand Morency. I would rather have 2008's back-ups over 2005's starter. D. Davis was a 3rd down back not to be confused with an every down back and maybe why his career was shortened. He was the offense, back in 2004/2005.

Jabar Gaffney, Andre Johnson, Corey Bradford,Mark Bruener over André Davis, Jacoby Jones, David Anderson and an older Bruener. AJ being the starter made this a tough one but JJ and Andre Davis is better than Jabar Gaffney and Corey Bradford, easily.


2008 OL backups Salaam,Studdard,Black,Butler,Spencer over 2005 OL Starters Victor Riley,Wade,Weigert,Pitts,Mckinney. We still need to see how Spencer comes back to have a better judgement on this one. I'll take this years back-ups because they are better than Riley,Wade,Weigart with only Pitts being the best from 2005. If I remember correctly Mckinney didn't have a good 2005.

The defensive side.....

I'll take N.D. Kalu(not Weaver), Jeff Zgonina and Frank Okam over an aging Robaire Smith, Seth Payne and Gary Walker. While we still need to have Okam play in his rookie year I like the upside better than the 2005 starters.

Adibi,Diles,Bentley over Greenwood,Wong(injured),Babin. It's hard to compare the linebackers since we are using a different scheme(4-3 instead of 3-4) but just taking the top 3 LB's for comparison's sake I would take Adibi,Diles and Bentley. Again we still need to play 2008 to get a better feel for this group of back-ups.

Reeves,Molden,Earl,Ferguson over Buchanon,Robinson,C.C. Brown,Earl. Again we still need to have 2008 play out and see how the depth chart looks but for comparison's sake any time you have P-Burnt as a starter that makes the 2005 starters look bad. I'll take Reeves/Molden over Buchanon any day of the week.

Thorn
05-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Sure the over the top bomb is great fun to watch but what really breaks defenses backs is repeated third down conversions that sustain long drives.

Yep. That's the truth.

nero THE zero
05-18-2008, 01:50 PM
A possession receiver should not be your #2 guy. They call it a skill position for a reason.


You better call Kubiak and tell him he doesn't know what he's doing then!

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 02:45 PM
You better call Kubiak and tell him he doesn't know what he's doing then!

Nice, I have an opinion that may not be kissing the Texans ass and all of a sudden I am telling Kubiak he doesnt know what he is doing.

I have been screaming since last year that our core is average at best and filled with a bunch of #3's.

Let them prove me wrong. We are not very athletic at the WR position outside of AJ. Can you retort otherwise? Is there something that you have seen that I have missed?

NitroGSXR
05-18-2008, 03:10 PM
Nice, I have an opinion that may not be kissing the Texans ass and all of a sudden I am tellieng Kubiak he doesnt know what he is doing.

I have been screaming since last year that our core is average at best and filled with a bunch of #3's.

Let them prove me wrong. We are not very athletic at the WR position outside of AJ. Can you retort otherwise? Is there something that you have seen that I have missed?
I could give two bleeps if we're not very athletic when we're ranked in the top five for passing in the AFC (7th in the NFL). Could care less. I'm not sure why their performance last season didn't prove you wrong though. Sure you can use the we had no run game blah blah as an argument but you can't say that we threw exclusively because we didn't. 529 passing attempts to 417 rushing attempts. That doesn't really scream at me that we're a pass happy team. What it tells me is that our receivers are doing a heckuva job out there. We were ranked a paltry 7th in the NFL with 7.4 yards per passing attempt. Who cares if they're not extremely athletic. They're getting the job done and I, for one, am a happy customer.

Grid
05-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Between Johnson, Davis, Walter, and Daniels..we have enough tools to compete with pretty much any team in the league.

ChampionTexan
05-18-2008, 03:27 PM
You better call Kubiak and tell him he doesn't know what he's doing then!

Ed McCaffrey might also be interested to find out that he shouldn't have been the #2 receiver on those two Super Bowl champions - what being a possession guy and all.

Texans_Chick
05-18-2008, 04:35 PM
I don't think it is completely crazy to say that that the Texans WR (with exception of Andre Johnson) are not great receivers.

The WRs that the Texans have, other than Andre Johnson are mostly guys that other teams really weren't that interested in. They are either not unusually fast, or maybe don't have good height or injury problems, and/or are very inexperienced.

Last year, at about this time, Texans MB were dying over who the Texans can acquire to be a #2 receiver, and that was a big issue going into last season.

That being said, the Texans scheme under Kubiak with the way the wide receivers fit into it, can make those receivers look better than they are as just a matter of skill sets. You wouldn't expect a lot of teams to covet the Texans receivers, other than Andre Johnson. So it wouldn't surprise me to hear scouts from other teams say that stuff.

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 04:36 PM
I could give two bleeps if we're not very athletic when we're ranked in the top five for passing in the AFC (7th in the NFL). Could care less. I'm not sure why their performance last season didn't prove you wrong though. Sure you can use the we had no run game blah blah as an argument but you can't say that we threw exclusively because we didn't. 529 passing attempts to 417 rushing attempts. That doesn't really scream at me that we're a pass happy team. What it tells me is that our receivers are doing a heckuva job out there. We were ranked a paltry 7th in the NFL with 7.4 yards per passing attempt. Who cares if they're not extremely athletic. They're getting the job done and I, for one, am a happy customer.

The Texans last year threw for 3751 passing yards. That is a pretty good number. I agree with that. Lets look to see how our WR core contributed to that number.

Andre Johnson, 9 games started, 7 missed due to injury. 851 yards and 8 TD's. Misses almost half a season and comes up just shy of 1000 yards? Get this man his yellow jacket.

Now for the rest:

Walter - (No S? guess you can learn me something.) 15 games started 800 yards and 4 TD's. Really? Thats it? Shouldn't he be more productive with AJ gone for 7 games? Isn't your #2 receiver supposed to be the second best receiver on the team? Only 4 TD's?

Andre Davis - 8 games started, 33 receptions, 583 yards and 3 TD's. Respectable for only 8 starts. Solid #3 numbers.

Jacoby Jones - Why even bother showing up and putting on pads? 3 starts, 14 games played in, 15 receptions 149 yards 0 TD's.

With AJ out of the picture for 7 games Walter should of had at least a 1000 yard season. As I said, he is supposed to be the second best receiver on the team.

Our 2,3,and 4 WR's scored a whopping 7 TD's combined. And last I check its the guy who has the most points and the end of the game that wins. 7 TD's as a receiving unit is pathetic.

OD is a TE not a WR as I am talking of only our WR unit, not the passing game as a whole.

Ed McCafferey had wheels on him and could run and break one loose. There is no comparison between the two. How come the white WR's always get compared to one another?

TheRealJoker
05-18-2008, 04:39 PM
Chris Carter would disagree with the "possession WRs cant be # 2s" after his time spent playing second fiddle to Moss in Minnesota.

But what does he know? All he ever did was catch touchdowns...

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 04:44 PM
Chris Carter would disagree with the "possession WRs cant be # 2s" after his time spent playing second fiddle to Moss in Minnesota.

But what does he know? All he ever did was catch touchdowns...

http://www.nfl.com/players/criscarter/careerstats?id=CAR632736

Cris Carter was a #1 long before Moss showed up.

TheRealJoker
05-18-2008, 04:47 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/criscarter/careerstats?id=CAR632736

Cris Carter was a #1 long before Moss showed up.

So now possession WRs can be # 1 WRs?

Checkmate.

Mr PC
05-18-2008, 05:03 PM
So now possession WRs can be # 1 WRs?

Checkmate.

Colston is a possession receiver, he is no. 1 on the Saints depth chart.

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 05:22 PM
So now possession WRs can be # 1 WRs?

Checkmate.

Checkmate?

How do you get Cris Carter's 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 6 straight double digit TD's confused with Kevin Walter's 800 yards and 4 TD's?

Just admit you were wrong so we can move on.

ChampionTexan
05-18-2008, 05:27 PM
Ed McCafferey had wheels on him and could run and break one loose. There is no comparison between the two. How come the white WR's always get compared to one another?


Let's see, McCaffrey played the same position in the same offense that Walter currently plays. McCaffrey's OC is Walter's current HC, and that OC/HC was the first to make the comparison.

But mostly, I guess it's because they're both white.

TheRealJoker
05-18-2008, 05:28 PM
Checkmate?

How do you get Cris Carter's 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 6 straight double digit TD's confused with Kevin Walter's 800 yards and 4 TD's?

Just admit you were wrong so we can move on.

Your breakdown of Carter is just further proving your initial hypothesis, "Possession WRs shouldn't be # 2s" is wrong. If Carter can be a # 1 much less a # 2 according to you then I take it you have admitted that you were wrong and are willing to move on provided I give you an out to save face so you dont lose any E-Cred after this thread has run its course.

Well its not going to be that simple, just admit you were wrong so we can move on.

TexansSeminole
05-18-2008, 05:35 PM
Saying possession guys can't be #2s is a losing argument, IMO.

There are many, many examples to show how this is a bad argument. Some have already been made, and I am sure if people have time they will post even more.

Kevin Walter had a good season last year. It's his first year with significant play time and he responding great IMO. He led the team in receptions with 65. He works great with Andre Davis. They can sub in for each other on 2 WR sets and I trust both of them to play the #2 position. In 3 WR sets they are interchangeable.

I don't understand the sharp criticism of Jacoby Jones. He was a small school prospect that most people KNEW was going to need some time to adjust and so forth. He gets injured last year, doesn't live up to his great pre-season, and people are talking about him like he is pretty much useless. I thought he did well for being injured and being a small school rookie, especially at WR where rookies struggle consistently year after year.

Give the guy a couple more seasons and see what kind of receiver he grows into. He doesn't HAVE to be a key part of the offense this year, so there isn't too much pressure on him. He is in a good situation IMO.

We may not have alot of STAR power at WR outside of Andre Johnson, but we have guys who stepped up last year in this system and showed they can play well. The young guys, David Anderson and Jacoby Jones, both proved they can atleast be somewhat productive. They just need to grow on their seasons last year.

People are confusing star power and production IMO. Our WRs aren't the problem on our offense. We actually had a pretty good passing attack considering our running game was borderline terrible.

This is just WRs. TEs like Daniels and Dreessen give us additional targets.


Last year, at about this time, Texans MB were dying over who the Texans can acquire to be a #2 receiver, and that was a big issue going into last season.

This is true, but who expected Kevin Walter to step up and have 65 receptions with 800 receiving yards and 4 TDs? I think Kubiak and a few other Texan coaches were the only people who thought it was possible.

On top of that Andre Davis had a career year. Most people thought he was a washed up receiver who wouldn't see much production here in Houston.

:fans:

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Your breakdown of Carter is just further proving your initial hypothesis, "Possession WRs shouldn't be # 2s" is wrong. If Carter can be a # 1 much less a # 2 according to you then I take it you have admitted that you were wrong and are willing to move on provided I give you an out to save face so you dont lose any E-Cred after this thread has run its course.

Well its not going to be that simple, just admit you were wrong so we can move on.

When did I say possession receivers couldn't be #2's? I was breaking down Walter specifically as being a #2 and stating that we as a team should get more production from the #2 position.

Comparing Walter to Carter is like comparing Bradford to Moss.

If your not going to admit your wrong at least admit that you misinterpreted what I wrote. Or just say Dude your right so I can copy it to my signature.:specnatz:

TexansSeminole
05-18-2008, 06:16 PM
A possession receiver should not be your #2 guy.

Just sayin', not trying to argue.

Rex King
05-18-2008, 06:36 PM
....Keyshawn.

This should be a telling year for Walter. In the 11 games he played with AJ, his production projected to 35 catches for about 400 yds over a 16 game season, more in line with a no. 3. In the 7 games AJ was out, his numbers projected to 94 catches for over 1200 yards, worthy of a no. 1. I think that disparity is a combination of things - Not passing as much and Schaub being dialed into AJ those first two games, getting blown out in several of the games with AJ out, and probably Walter improving as a receiver over the course of the season.

Things in his favor:
-Probably gained a lot of confidence
-The guy can get separation
-Schaub probably has more confidence in him and may spread the ball around more

Things against him
-Running game will be emphasized more
-Hopefully we'll be ahead more late in games
-Daniels and the RBs will likely figure heavily in the passing game

DocBar
05-18-2008, 06:39 PM
He's trying to see if scouts think this year's current backups could beat out the '04 starters.

Dunno what who these scouts are but they can't be that good if they can't pick up on the fact that this year's receiving corps is head and shoulders above '04. I'm wondering if Dressen has the backup this year over Bruener. DD was a solid starter but taking into account the backups behind him and who we have now I'll take this year's backups too.

I would take this years backups over the starting oline in 04.

The only place I think there would be a push at is Linebacker and Dline respectively.

I think Jerome needs a second opinion from different scouts.

WOW!!! Even a "maybe" push between any aspect of this years team and ANY from the DC regime seems almost ludicrous to me. The closest I could come to would be our safeties. Other than that, '08 Texans slobberknocker the '02-'05 Texans. Mario, Okoye, Ryans and Greenwood are enough to offset the entire Dline and LB corps of the previous teams.

TexansSeminole
05-18-2008, 06:45 PM
Things against him
-Running game will be emphasized more

Not sure that this is something that is against him. I think a more successful running game, and thus a running game that is more emphasized, is a benefit to the passing game.

Unpredictability is a pretty big asset of any NFL offense.

Rex King
05-18-2008, 07:15 PM
Not sure that this is something that is against him. I think a more successful running game, and thus a running game that is more emphasized, is a benefit to the passing game.

Unpredictability is a pretty big asset of any NFL offense.

I was going to put that in both pro and con, but if Kubiak follows the Bill Walsh West Coast philosophy, he's going to pass in order to open up the running game and not the other way around. He's professed that's what he wants to do, but got away from it because of how putrid the ground game remained. So I'm thinking they'll pass less often, and there will be fewer plays to go around. AJ will get his. But hopefully that safety cheatin' down will allow for bigger gains.

TEXANRED
05-18-2008, 09:04 PM
Just sayin', not trying to argue.

I am sorry, I am doing a poor job of representing my point.

Kevin Walter should not be our #2. He lacks speed and athleticism. I knew what I ment.

Goldensilence
05-18-2008, 10:24 PM
I was going to put that in both pro and con, but if Kubiak follows the Bill Walsh West Coast philosophy, he's going to pass in order to open up the running game and not the other way around. He's professed that's what he wants to do, but got away from it because of how putrid the ground game remained. So I'm thinking they'll pass less often, and there will be fewer plays to go around. AJ will get his. But hopefully that safety cheatin' down will allow for bigger gains.

Speaking of Bill Walsh and the West Coast Offense. Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Tom Rathman, and Roger Craig were burners weren't they?

TEXANRED - Nope Walter isn't your proto-typical #2 still did a pretty damn good job last year when it counted.

Hooston Texan
05-19-2008, 12:26 AM
Walter - (No S? guess you can learn me something.) 15 games started 800 yards and 4 TD's. Really? Thats it? Shouldn't he be more productive with AJ gone for 7 games? Isn't your #2 receiver supposed to be the second best receiver on the team? Only 4 TD's?



I just went through every team's receiving stats for last year, and only a small handful of #2 wideouts outperformed Walter last season.

Defining who is #1 or #2 is, of course, tricky (and ceremonial). For the most part, I simply took the WR with the second-best receiving stats. I set no definite standard for what constituted "outperforming" Walter's numbers. I took an "I know it when I see it" approach.

In any event, the #2 WRs who unquestionably had better years than Walter (65-800-4) were:

1. Wes Welker (112-1175-8): great player but benefitted from history's greatest passing game.

2. T.J. Houshmandzadeh (112-1143-12): clearly one of the best #2 WRs in the business (assuming he should be considered Cincy's #2, some debate that now).

3. Greg Jennings (79-943-12): is probably The Man in Green Bay going forward.

4. Anquan Boldin (71-853-9): another clearly-elite #2 guy. But do you want as much cap space eaten by WRs as the Cardinals have?

5. Santonio Holmes (52-942-8): stats were better than Hines Ward's, but Ward is the Steeler's acknowledged #1. Walter outgained Ward last season, by the way.

6. Shaun McDonald (79-943-6): the shocker to me, but Detroit's running game was even more putrid than ours.

But that's it. (And, no, Reggie Wayne has not been Peyton's #2 WR for quite some time.) Everyone else's second-best WR had numbers either in the vicinity of Walter's (though I think nobody else outgained him) or significantly less than his. Going by the stats--which you invoked--Walter was in the second tier behind the acknowledged elite of guys like Welker, Housh, Bolding and Holmes.

(Note well: it is late in the evening, so I admit that I may have missed someone.)

Maddict5
05-19-2008, 07:41 AM
The Texans last year threw for 3751 passing yards. That is a pretty good number. I agree with that. Lets look to see how our WR core contributed to that number.


i think your figure takes sacks into account.. i think the actual passing figure is 3,925

Tedc
05-19-2008, 07:49 AM
Wow, I am amazed!

Not counting me (because I haven't stooped to read his tripe for just about a year now), there are 26 people that have responded to an article that is not worth reading.


There must be half of the Queen's readership that posts on Texans Talk!!

:fans:

nero THE zero
05-19-2008, 09:05 AM
Nice, I have an opinion that may not be kissing the Texans ass and all of a sudden I am telling Kubiak he doesnt know what he is doing.

I have been screaming since last year that our core is average at best and filled with a bunch of #3's.

Let them prove me wrong. We are not very athletic at the WR position outside of AJ. Can you retort otherwise? Is there something that you have seen that I have missed?

lol

It's not as if we don't have the personell to play someone else at the #2 spot than Walter. We could play a speedy reciever in Davis who was also productive last season. But, Kubiak obviously feels that possesion recievers, Walter in this instance, are, in fact, #2 recievers.

I'm not questioning your ability to have a dissenting opinion. I'm certainly no stranger to that. I'm questioning the idea that you somehow have a better grasp on what personell is fit to play what role than someone with decades of NFL experience.