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Wolf
05-12-2008, 10:26 AM
There are times when Jethro Franklin is a very likable guy. There are times he is not.

Is hateable a word? Matters not, as it is the word used by one Texans defensive lineman to describe how Franklin is on the football field.

Franklin seems to enjoy getting under players' skin. The players don't like it. They openly discuss doing harm to the assistant coach.

Logic leads one to assume they are joking, but the delivery of said threats comes with nary a wink or a smile.

"There are times you just want to choke Jethro," Mario Williams said matter-of-factly after a particularly grueling (and grilling) workout at Texans minicamp. "I hope it doesn't happen one day, but if it does ... "

Long list of suspects
If it does, the authorities will have a difficult time zeroing in on a suspect. Every defensive lineman on the roster has at one time or another and probably at the same time for that matter vowed to end Franklin's torture.

You could put together several CSI-worthy flashback scenes from Saturday's practice alone.

They only owed him five reps. At least that is what Franklin kept yelling at them.

So it is understandable that they were a bit disheartened when they lined up in three-point stances for what was their sixth repetition of this particular drill.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5771546.html

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 11:47 AM
On the radio this morning LZ mentioned that he saw Franklin chewing out Amobi. Apparently they are making it a point to not let his laziness become an issue this season. Or at least trying to.

I'm really excited about the way they are talking up Mario, but I think it is essential that Amobi becomes a consistent contributor, at least with his pass rush. With Okam on the line it is not as essential (though preferred) that his run play take a big step forward, but with the lack of another pass rushing DE, he has to be able to consistently put pressure on the QB. Hopefully he can step up one aspect of his game.

Specnatz
05-12-2008, 11:51 AM
On the radio this morning LZ mentioned that he saw Franklin chewing out Amobi. Apparently they are making it a point to not let his laziness become an issue this season. Or at least trying to.

I'm really excited about the way they are talking up Mario, but I think it is essential that Amobi becomes a consistent contributor, at least with his pass rush. With Okam on the line it is not as essential (though preferred) that his run play take a big step forward, but with the lack of another pass rushing DE, he has to be able to consistently put pressure on the QB. Hopefully he can step up one aspect of his game.

I never heard of Amobi being lazy, I heard a lot about him hitting the wall alst year like all rookie lineman do but not about him not working hard.

Yankee_In_TX
05-12-2008, 11:52 AM
I never heard of Amobi being lazy, I heard a lot about him hitting the wall alst year like all rookie lineman do but not about him not working hard.

It was never said, but there was a "read between the lines" type of thing.

ObsiWan
05-12-2008, 12:49 PM
It was never said, but there was a "read between the lines" type of thing.

Who was reading and where were these "lines"?
:cool:

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 12:52 PM
Who was reading and where were these "lines"?
:cool:

There were a number of indicators, from pressers to Amobi being taken out of the starting line-up one game last season, that there was something in his play that the coaches didn't like. Franklin also eluded to it in his interview on 1560 that TC blogged about.

What that "problem" was has never been explicitly stated, but all indications are laziness.

Specnatz
05-12-2008, 12:53 PM
It was never said, but there was a "read between the lines" type of thing.

Who was reading and where were these "lines"?
:cool:

Just curious if it was lines of a white powder? I am not saying, I'm just asking.

Brandon420tx
05-12-2008, 12:57 PM
Great, now we'll have "Amobi needs to stop being lazy!" Threads every game he doesn't get a sack.
:d:

PapaL
05-12-2008, 01:02 PM
He must be hanging with TJ - King of Lazy.

I think all three of them will be much better this year. But then again, what do I know?

Lucky
05-12-2008, 01:06 PM
What that "problem" was has never been explicitly stated, but all indications are laziness.
I'm not sure how one can differentiate from hitting the rookie wall and laziness. Okoye didn't seem so lazy in the 1st half of the season when he was racking up RBs and QBs. The drafting of Okam should allow Travis Johnson to split time between the 1 & 3 technique DT spots and keep Okoye fresh to rush the passer in the 2nd half of the season.

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure how one can differentiate from hitting the rookie wall and laziness. Okoye didn't seem so lazy in the 1st half of the season when he was racking up RBs and QBs. The drafting of Okam should allow Travis Johnson to split time between the 1 & 3 technique DT spots and keep Okoye fresh to rush the passer in the 2nd half of the season.

Well, like I said, nothing has been explicitly stated. But there were several indicators last season that there was something in Amobi's work ethic that they didn't like. As I mentioned, there was a game last season that he didn't start because he was "in trouble." I don't really have the time or the means to go back and find a link, but Franklin speaks of it in the 1560 interview:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/15/texans-defensive-line-coach-talks-about-mario-and-more/
3:25 On defensive tackle Amobi Okoye: His youth is no excuse as he has always played against older guys. He has some things to work on that are private between Franklin and Okoye. One of the things that he needs to work on is finishing plays.

So, call it what you will, but I'm not making up things here.

Hardcore Texan
05-12-2008, 01:17 PM
I don't see a problem with Franklin riding their butts and making life miserable, of course they feel that way, but it's called pushing your players as hard as you can to be better. It's not always roses and buckets of sunshine, but that's how its got to be sometimes.

When I was in the USAF, I had a civilian boss, he rode my butt everyday. Just me and a couple othere guys, not everyone. We absolutely hated his guts at the time, but he saw something in me and pushed me to be better, he didn't care if I liked him or not, but he was training me for things later on in my professional life that I didn't see as 22-23 years old. Now, I am grateful for him and for him being so hard on me, I wouldn't have gotten to where I am at if he did care enough to push me.

That being said, he was a HUGE pain in the ass though. :)

Lucky
05-12-2008, 01:23 PM
So, call it what you will, but I'm not making up things here.
I'm not saying you are. And Franklin should use whatever motivational techniques he deems fit. But if you look at Okoye's numbers from the 1st 9 games (24 tackles, 5 sacks), and his last 7 (8 tackles, 0.5 sacks), it seems like an obvious example of hitting the rookie wall.

DBCooper
05-12-2008, 01:33 PM
So, if I'm reading this thread correctly, Amobi is getting lazy because he is doing lines with TJ?

Spike
05-12-2008, 01:44 PM
There were a number of indicators, from pressers to Amobi being taken out of the starting line-up one game last season, that there was something in his play that the coaches didn't like. Franklin also eluded to it in his interview on 1560 that TC blogged about.

What that "problem" was has never been explicitly stated, but all indications are laziness.

For what it is worth, I had the same impression as well. I don't know if it is just a criticism of d-lineman in general, but it seems that a lot of our d-lineman have had "motor" issues. When we drafted TJ (and even after his first two seasons in the league) he was crtiticized for not giving his best effort. In know coming out of college, Mario was knocked for taking plays off.

I think the coaches approach to the players is at least in part, to these issues. Clearly, Mario and TJ have responded to this approach. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that this won't be a problem for Amobi - my gut tells me that this guy is a hard worker and that his issues were more of a conditioning/ rookie issue last year.

Of all of these guys, I think Okam has the most to gain from this coaching technique. A lot has been said about Okam and his production late in his college career. I don't think we should under estimate that he went through several different d-coordinators at UT. Also, don't under estimate that the UT coaches have develpoed a reputation dealing too softly with their players. In Okam's case (as well as other UT players), I think this resulted in relying too much on physical ability (rather than technique) and just not giving in 100% on every play. If Okam responds to this approach, I think we will have gotten a steal late in the draft.

Wolf
05-12-2008, 01:54 PM
depending on P.O.V. and being on the field seeing the guy..only coaches would know.


Was he not trying anymore half way to though the season?

or
Has his young body hit the wall and the coaches were trying to push(*edit* motivate) him through that wall that rookies go through and continue to press on even if the "stats" weren't there

Carr Bombed
05-12-2008, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I'm not buying the "Lazy issuses" crap.

He certainly wasn't "Lazy" in the Denver game (week 15) when his pressure up the middle lead to two Mario Williams sacks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dImtYvSUKc

(min 1:13) Okoye collapses the pocket and ties up Cutler long enough for Mario to get there.....later you can see Okoye beating his hand into the turf upset that he didn't get Cutler down.

(min 2:19) Okoye brings pressure straight up the middle again flushing Cutler out straight towards Mario.

The kid was 19 when we dafted him.........and he had a fantastic rookie season. I mean I'm glad the Texans coaching staff is setting the bar high, but I think Okoye met all expectations last year. (well he atleast met mine). I expect even a bigger year out of him this season.

Rookies hit walls, same thing happened to Dunta Robinson when his fantastic Rookie season all of a sudden tailed off.

Wolf
05-12-2008, 02:07 PM
Yeah, I'm not buying the "Lazy issuses" crap.

He certainly wasn't "Lazy" in the Denver game (week 15) when his pressure up the middle lead to two Mario Williams sacks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dImtYvSUKc

The kid was 19 when we dafted him.........and he had a fantastic rookie season. I mean I'm glad the Texans coaching staff is setting the bar high, but I think Okoye met all expectations last year. (well he atleast met mine). I expect even a bigger year out of him this season.

Rookies hit walls, same thing happened to Dunta Robinson when his fantastic Rookie season all of a sudden tailed off.

I agree CB...
and off the subject for a second
and last season a thought ran through my mind, about the best thing that happened to Adrian Peterson was the slight injury middle of the season...Gave his body time to heal and other parts to rest for a second or two, because I did wonder if he would it that Rookie wall...

anyway back on topic.. I am thinking the coaches were just trying to motivate him through that period that rookies go through...they aren't aware of how much different the NFL is compared to college and w/ more games (including preseason)

Meloy
05-12-2008, 02:55 PM
For what it is worth, I had the same impression as well. I don't know if it is just a criticism of d-lineman in general, but it seems that a lot of our d-lineman have had "motor" issues. When we drafted TJ (and even after his first two seasons in the league) he was crtiticized for not giving his best effort. In know coming out of college, Mario was knocked for taking plays off.

I think the coaches approach to the players is at least in part, to these issues. Clearly, Mario and TJ have responded to this approach. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that this won't be a problem for Amobi - my gut tells me that this guy is a hard worker and that his issues were more of a conditioning/ rookie issue last year.

Of all of these guys, I think Okam has the most to gain from this coaching technique. A lot has been said about Okam and his production late in his college career. I don't think we should under estimate that he went through several different d-coordinators at UT. Also, don't under estimate that the UT coaches have develpoed a reputation dealing too softly with their players. In Okam's case (as well as other UT players), I think this resulted in relying too much on physical ability (rather than technique) and just not giving in 100% on every play. If Okam responds to this approach, I think we will have gotten a steal late in the draft.
Not sure I agree with your thought. IMO Mario last year was healed and had the benefit of a year in NFL behind him and all the hoopla of being #1 chosen over Bush. TJ had a private talk in Kubes office that was well documented that the coach expected more and quickly. TJ first efforts on the field prior to last season seemed to indicate he got the message.

I am not one of those that believe that Gibbs or Franklin yelling at players is successful. There is more to their approach than pointing out to the player with profanity and volume that the player screwed up. Some people of that age group respond well to a drill instructor mentality and others do not. Okoye is a very smart person who has adapted will to his first year in the NFL. He did not compete last year with players just a few years older & still in his age group with college experience. Rather against players with several years of NFL training and game experience. He did remarkably well & there is nothing to indicate he will not advance this season. I believe the two coaches definitely get into a player's head ( and others within the area) but also have the ability to motivate. There is more going on besides the teaching seen on the field.

ChampionTexan
05-12-2008, 03:12 PM
We usually hear what we expect to hear, and if Franklin wanting to keep things between him and Amobi is heard by some as laziness, maybe they're right. To me, it means for one of what could be several reasons (laziness included), he doesn't want folks outside of the organization to know.

It just seems like whenever it becomes a consensus of "Even though we have no way of knowing the answer - this is what we know the answer to be", we are usually wrong.

infantrycak
05-12-2008, 03:19 PM
Tons of DL draft prospects get labeled as taking plays off. Sure some do, but I think a lot of draft guys look at a guy like Mario and expect him to dominate every play and if he doesn't they write it up as taking plays off rather than some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.

I did witness a very heated confrontation between Mario, Kalu and Franklin last year--Mario was trying to talk to Franklin who was ignoring him (Franklin was kneeling talking to a couple other DLmen whose identity was obscure sitting on the bench) and Kalu was getting more and more volatile and had to be restrained by Maddox (I believe it was Maddox).

Flip side--Franklin is also flexible enough that he was letting Mario decide at the line where he wanted to line up at the end of the year.

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm not saying you are. And Franklin should use whatever motivational techniques he deems fit. But if you look at Okoye's numbers from the 1st 9 games (24 tackles, 5 sacks), and his last 7 (8 tackles, 0.5 sacks), it seems like an obvious example of hitting the rookie wall.

To be fair, there is a lot more that goes on than what we see on the field. Just because he was being productive on Sundays doesn't mean he was doing his due dilligence in the film room or on the practice field. Afterall, the chewing out he recieved this weekend had nothing to do with gameday and everything to do with his (lack of) effort on the practice field.

I'm not pretending that I know something that other people don't. I'm just saying; if Kubiak is making pointed comments at him in pressers, if he is getting taken out of the starting line-up as punishment, if our d-line coach specifically mentions "private issues" with Amobi, then there might be more going on than the "rookie wall." I'm not arguing semantics here and I'm not saying that it is definitely laziness, but there is obviously an issue here that goes beyond the "rookie wall."

And I assume this goes without saying, but Amobi has my full support and I think he will have a very long and productive career. He's just probably battling some maturity issues or something.

Texans_Chick
05-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Well, like I said, nothing has been explicitly stated. But there were several indicators last season that there was something in Amobi's work ethic that they didn't like. As I mentioned, there was a game last season that he didn't start because he was "in trouble." I don't really have the time or the means to go back and find a link, but Franklin speaks of it in the 1560 interview:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/15/texans-defensive-line-coach-talks-about-mario-and-more/


So, call it what you will, but I'm not making up things here.


I think anyone is reading too much into everything to suggest that Okoye's issue is "being lazy." There are any number of issues between a player and coach that they might want to keep quiet. If a player has a technique issue, for instance, you may not want to talk about it because it might be helpful for your opponents to know. And, they want to build trust between a player and coach that was is said is private. So that neither coach or player feels the need to blab to the media. And just because a player was not a starter for a game, doesn't mean it was for laziness. It could be a number of things--violation of team rules, etc.

This is the time of year where people want to read too much into everything because we are going nuts because nothing is going on.

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 04:06 PM
I think anyone is reading too much into everything to suggest that Okoye's issue is "being lazy." There are any number of issues between a player and coach that they might want to keep quiet. If a player has a technique issue, for instance, you may not want to talk about it because it might be helpful for your opponents to know. And, they want to build trust between a player and coach that was is said is private. So that neither coach or player feels the need to blab to the media. And just because a player was not a starter for a game, doesn't mean it was for laziness. It could be a number of things--violation of team rules, etc.

This is the time of year where people want to read too much into everything because we are going nuts because nothing is going on.

What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.

I mean, I don't think a player gets taken out of the starting line-up for one game for "technique issues" or "hitting the rookie wall." That's the most telling thing for me. And Kubiak said something along the same lines Franklin did as it being "a personal matter." To say that he has chronic concerns is a bit over the top, but I think to brush it off as nothing is as well.

Vinny
05-12-2008, 04:11 PM
What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.
one of the problems with taking the "youngest player ever" is the fact that he is, well....young. Wasn't he a teen when he was drafted? Part of the risk of the kid was taking him before he matured fully. 'Seemingly mature' doesn't equate to being mature in many cases....if that is even an issue. I tend to agree with TC on this right now though....boring time of year = goofy speculation sometimes. I wasn't overly impressed with his game last year...but he flashed talent, no doubt about that (as a passrusher...not so much as a run stopper). Time to do more than flash this season if he is going to prove to be a better pick than Revis or a number of guys picked after him that has played well that we could have used.

Dallas_Texan
05-12-2008, 05:12 PM
For what it is worth, I had the same impression as well. I don't know if it is just a criticism of d-lineman in general, but it seems that a lot of our d-lineman have had "motor" issues. When we drafted TJ (and even after his first two seasons in the league) he was crtiticized for not giving his best effort. In know coming out of college, Mario was knocked for taking plays off.

I think the coaches approach to the players is at least in part, to these issues. Clearly, Mario and TJ have responded to this approach. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that this won't be a problem for Amobi - my gut tells me that this guy is a hard worker and that his issues were more of a conditioning/ rookie issue last year.

Of all of these guys, I think Okam has the most to gain from this coaching technique. A lot has been said about Okam and his production late in his college career. I don't think we should under estimate that he went through several different d-coordinators at UT. Also, don't under estimate that the UT coaches have develpoed a reputation dealing too softly with their players. In Okam's case (as well as other UT players), I think this resulted in relying too much on physical ability (rather than technique) and just not giving in 100% on every play. If Okam responds to this approach, I think we will have gotten a steal late in the draft.


Okam question from someone who doesn't watch UT football:

How was the rest of Okam's line at UT? Is it possible that the rest of his line made him look better, or was he the superstar on that line? Just wondering.

ObsiWan
05-12-2008, 05:58 PM
What do you make of it TC?

There was pre-draft buzz regarding Amobi's "maturity issues" before last season. Kubiak had made certain pointed comments regarding Amobi's development last season. Kubiak sat Amobi out of the starting line-up a game last season for an unidentified incident. And now this incident on the practice field this weekend.

Each thing is innocuous by itself, but together they clearly spell out an issue to me. I don't think it is a major issue. I don't think it's Pac-Mac or Chris Henry-esque; not even in the same ballpark. But I think it's something.

I mean, I don't think a player gets taken out of the starting line-up for one game for "technique issues" or "hitting the rookie wall." That's the most telling thing for me. And Kubiak said something along the same lines Franklin did as it being "a personal matter." To say that he has chronic concerns is a bit over the top, but I think to brush it off as nothing is as well.

I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
:deadhorse:

D-ReK
05-12-2008, 06:06 PM
I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
:deadhorse:

The strangest aspect if that were the case, however, would be that Okoye was back in the game on the second play and stayed in for the rest of the game. If he were benched for a lack of performance, he'd be relegated to Faggins duty, not still logging in a ton of minutes directly after Anthony Maddox, who replaced him, recorded a sack on the first play of the game.

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 06:45 PM
I think someone would get taken out of the starting line-up for just such things if the fall-off in performance (due to "hitting the wall") or lack of effectiveness (due to "technique issues") brought down the effectiveness of the whole unit. Taking the affected player out of the lineup is exactly the right thing to do until their performance is back where it belongs. If that one week gives the player a chance to recover or correct his technique, then why not?



....and it will be rather slow until OTAs start, huh?
:deadhorse:

Well, it doesn't help that Kubiak stated Okoye wasn't starting for disciplinary reasons. Which is what my point was.

I guess I should have made that more clear.

TK_Gamer
05-12-2008, 07:09 PM
which could mean anything, he could have showed up 2 minutes late to practice or a meeting. The most dangerous thing in the world is "a little bit" of information. leaving everyone room to extrapolate in their mind all the juiciest versions of the story. Seriously, we need to stop jumping to every negative conclusion.

Grid
05-12-2008, 07:10 PM
I remember alot of articles like this about Coughlin when he took over the Giants.

nero THE zero
05-12-2008, 09:18 PM
which could mean anything, he could have showed up 2 minutes late to practice or a meeting. The most dangerous thing in the world is "a little bit" of information. leaving everyone room to extrapolate in their mind all the juiciest versions of the story. Seriously, we need to stop jumping to every negative conclusion.

lol

I wasn't trying to pass of my interpretation of the events as fact, nor was I trying to spread "juicy" rumors. I've stated several times, in several different ways that it is merely my interpretation of the facts and nothing more. Next time I'll try and spin a player being punished, recieving pointed comments in pressers, and being chewed out for not practicing hard enough into pie-in-the-sky sweet nothings. God forbid all our players not be perfect, even our best ones.

ObsiWan
05-12-2008, 09:23 PM
Well, it doesn't help that Kubiak stated Okoye wasn't starting for disciplinary reasons. Which is what my point was.

I guess I should have made that more clear.

Fair enough.

Texans_Chick
05-12-2008, 09:30 PM
one of the problems with taking the "youngest player ever" is the fact that he is, well....young. Wasn't he a teen when he was drafted? Part of the risk of the kid was taking him before he matured fully. 'Seemingly mature' doesn't equate to being mature in many cases....if that is even an issue. I tend to agree with TC on this right now though....boring time of year = goofy speculation sometimes. I wasn't overly impressed with his game last year...but he flashed talent, no doubt about that (as a passrusher...not so much as a run stopper).

Pretty much QFT.

The Texans pretty much have enough real problems without making them up or speculating based on very little information. (see e.g. The Annual State of the Secondary preseason article "gee, it is all second day players").

Texaninlild
05-12-2008, 09:38 PM
The strangest aspect if that were the case, however, would be that Okoye was back in the game on the second play and stayed in for the rest of the game. If he were benched for a lack of performance, he'd be relegated to Faggins duty, not still logging in a ton of minutes directly after Anthony Maddox, who replaced him, recorded a sack on the first play of the game.

Can we take Faggins off the roster just to ensure he never has to cover anyone again for the Texans? I think I would rather see Duane Brown at DB.

Spike
05-12-2008, 10:40 PM
Not sure I agree with your thought. IMO Mario last year was healed and had the benefit of a year in NFL behind him and all the hoopla of being #1 chosen over Bush. TJ had a private talk in Kubes office that was well documented that the coach expected more and quickly. TJ first efforts on the field prior to last season seemed to indicate he got the message.

I am not one of those that believe that Gibbs or Franklin yelling at players is successful. There is more to their approach than pointing out to the player with profanity and volume that the player screwed up. Some people of that age group respond well to a drill instructor mentality and others do not. Okoye is a very smart person who has adapted will to his first year in the NFL. He did not compete last year with players just a few years older & still in his age group with college experience. Rather against players with several years of NFL training and game experience. He did remarkably well & there is nothing to indicate he will not advance this season. I believe the two coaches definitely get into a player's head ( and others within the area) but also have the ability to motivate. There is more going on besides the teaching seen on the field.


I think you make some good points...and the likely answer is that the improvement of these players in a result of several different factors, including coaching, experience, etc. Just to clarify my point of view, I think both Gibbs and Franklin's approach has a lot more to do with just getting in players faces and yelling. I agree, the drill instructor mentality doesn't work for everyone...but I think it is the substance behind the yelling that makes all the difference. I am not sure if you read the article in the Chron today, but I think what this guys do is much more than going after players with profanity and volume. It is an attention to detail, emphasizing a specific technique, requiring that the same amount of effort be given on every snap and pushing players to go above and beyond what they expect they can do.

The Pencil Neck
05-13-2008, 01:43 AM
Personally, I've got no problem with screaming and profanity.

But I think this is like the military and the reasoning behind it is the same. When you're in a game situation (like a battle situation), things are sometimes hectic. Different people are screaming different things to different other people. Coaches are yelling, people are trying to make sure the right package of players gets on the field, that other players get off the field, that the right play gets in, that the right coverages are called, that the players are making their reads.

And it can get hectic.

If you practice hectic, you get used to it. You get used to being able to shut some things out and let other things in. You get accustomed to the chaos so that when you face it in the game, it's probably less crazy than what you're used to in practice.

So... I'm fine with the strategy. If it lights a fire under some guys asses, great. If some guys respond to it and others don't, fine. Because I think the idea isn't that it's going to make people work harder, it's going to make people be able to work in stressful conditions.

PapaL
05-13-2008, 07:33 AM
Personally, I've got no problem with screaming and profanity.

But I think this is like the military and the reasoning behind it is the same. When you're in a game situation (like a battle situation), things are sometimes hectic. Different people are screaming different things to different other people. Coaches are yelling, people are trying to make sure the right package of players gets on the field, that other players get off the field, that the right play gets in, that the right coverages are called, that the players are making their reads.

And it can get hectic.

If you practice hectic, you get used to it. You get used to being able to shut some things out and let other things in. You get accustomed to the chaos so that when you face it in the game, it's probably less crazy than what you're used to in practice.

So... I'm fine with the strategy. If it lights a fire under some guys asses, great. If some guys respond to it and others don't, fine. Because I think the idea isn't that it's going to make people work harder, it's going to make people be able to work in stressful conditions.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. The two are totally different. Life/Death > Game/Practice.

In the military when you're out on the range and firing weapons it's not all Hollywood'ish with people yelling and such. Your taught control, aim and how to react when there is a malfunction. There's not someone laying down next to you on the floor yelling at you to blast that silhouette like he stole something from your momma. Then again, I can't speak for all services and wouldn't be surprised if some other services did some crazy stuff like that but then again would you be yelling at the guy holding the gun?

None the less Life/Death > Game/Practice.

aj.
05-13-2008, 08:08 AM
lol

I wasn't trying to pass of my interpretation of the events as fact, nor was I trying to spread "juicy" rumors. I've stated several times, in several different ways that it is merely my interpretation of the facts and nothing more. Next time I'll try and spin a player being punished, recieving pointed comments in pressers, and being chewed out for not practicing hard enough into pie-in-the-sky sweet nothings. God forbid all our players not be perfect, even our best ones.

If it's what you see/hear/sense, and you want to say it, say it.

HJam72
05-13-2008, 08:45 AM
If it's what you see/hear/sense, and you want to say it, say it.

I need to fart. :thisbig:

Just kidding.

The Pencil Neck
05-13-2008, 10:55 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. The two are totally different. Life/Death > Game/Practice.

In the military when you're out on the range and firing weapons it's not all Hollywood'ish with people yelling and such. Your taught control, aim and how to react when there is a malfunction. There's not someone laying down next to you on the floor yelling at you to blast that silhouette like he stole something from your momma. Then again, I can't speak for all services and wouldn't be surprised if some other services did some crazy stuff like that but then again would you be yelling at the guy holding the gun?

None the less Life/Death > Game/Practice.

I don't think I said it was "the same." But just because Life/Death > Game/Practice doesn't mean that the same concept can't apply. They are absolutely not totally different. You can still take lessons from one and apply it to the other.

Even though battle is obviously exponentially greater doesn't mean that a Game isn't a stressful situation where you need to learn to deal with people yelling at you. There have been lots of veterans who played professional football and some of those guys still got so nervous before a game that they puked or had other rituals to prepare their minds.

badboy
05-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Yelling gets a person's attention but often leads to tuning out or wanting to stay out of the screamer's area. As a leader and trainer, the stick (screaming) does not seem to work well, either as a NCO in the Marine Corps or other various jobs I have had. People learn differently & I think it is my job to present the info until I find the way that the learner "gets it". Once he says he got it, the responsibility shifts to him. Most of the guys we have drafted or signed last two years seem to be fairly intelligent and should get the program quickly. I think the quality of the coaching staff has gone up.

bigbrewster2000
05-13-2008, 03:10 PM
I don't think I said it was "the same." But just because Life/Death > Game/Practice doesn't mean that the same concept can't apply. They are absolutely not totally different. You can still take lessons from one and apply it to the other.

Even though battle is obviously exponentially greater doesn't mean that a Game isn't a stressful situation where you need to learn to deal with people yelling at you. There have been lots of veterans who played professional football and some of those guys still got so nervous before a game that they puked or had other rituals to prepare their minds.

True to the point that a game is a stressful situation, where you can have adverse physical reactionseven from veterans, but the type of stress and reactions that one would have between a game and battle are very very different.

The Pencil Neck
05-13-2008, 09:40 PM
True to the point that a game is a stressful situation, where you can have adverse physical reactionseven from veterans, but the type of stress and reactions that one would have between a game and battle are very very different.

Game situations and battle situations being the same were never anyone's point. My point was that if you want to get people accustomed to working in a hectic, chaotic situation then you make them practice in a hectic, chaotic situation. I mean, there's a pretty big difference between making your bed and having guys shoot at you. Right? And yet in the service, people yell at you constantly without bullets actually flying so that when the bullets are flying and people are yelling at you, you're not going to be as freaked out. You're still going to be freaked out but if you'd never ever had anyone yelling at you before, you'd be even more freaked.

The stress doesn't have to be the same. The stresses can be very, very different. And yet, it works.

bigbrewster2000
05-14-2008, 10:25 AM
Game situations and battle situations being the same were never anyone's point. My point was that if you want to get people accustomed to working in a hectic, chaotic situation then you make them practice in a hectic, chaotic situation. I mean, there's a pretty big difference between making your bed and having guys shoot at you. Right? And yet in the service, people yell at you constantly without bullets actually flying so that when the bullets are flying and people are yelling at you, you're not going to be as freaked out. You're still going to be freaked out but if you'd never ever had anyone yelling at you before, you'd be even more freaked.

The stress doesn't have to be the same. The stresses can be very, very different. And yet, it works.
I agree with you. I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Were you in the service too?

The Pencil Neck
05-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Were you in the service too?

No, I didn't serve. I really agonized over that decision when I was young but decided not to go in.

cuppacoffee
05-14-2008, 01:33 PM
Yelling gets a person's attention but often leads to tuning out or wanting to stay out of the screamer's area. As a leader and trainer, the stick (screaming) does not seem to work well, either as a NCO in the Marine Corps or other various jobs I have had. People learn differently & I think it is my job to present the info until I find the way that the learner "gets it". Once he says he got it, the responsibility shifts to him. Most of the guys we have drafted or signed last two years seem to be fairly intelligent and should get the program quickly. I think the quality of the coaching staff has gone up.


Worked on this old man when I was 19 and a boot at MCRD San Diego in 1958...:scare:

Not so much once you graduate boot camp though.:D

:coffee: