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infantrycak
12-10-2004, 05:11 PM
At least IMO, the OL has been the single greatest failure of the Texans this year. The pass protection is better than the run blocking but only because the run blocking is miserable. So what does it take to improve the OL next year:

a) time--they just need to gel
b) new personnel at one of more positions--I will nominate center
c) a new OL coach--some how San Diego's OL coach has changed 4 out of 5 guys and replaced them, including putting in 2 rookies and a vet considered a yeoman on other teams
d) dump the zone blocking
e) a combination of the above or
f) leave it alone--it is all the RB and QB's fault

Not having heard anyone else's opinion, IMO they need a center and to let the line gel. I just don't know about the zone blocking and am willing to be patient but it clearly isn't working right now. It appears we missed out by not grabbing the coach San Diego got when we got Pendry but have no idea if there is a better OL coach out there that would make a difference--if not stick with (a) & (b).

wags
12-10-2004, 06:35 PM
Cak,

I think once before you posted info on the sacks given up and penalties called on each lineman. Can you update that?

TEXANS84
12-10-2004, 06:49 PM
Personally, I'd like to see Washington get some playing time again.

Fiddy
12-10-2004, 07:18 PM
My answer: A

We have a new LT, LG and RT to go along with a new scheme. Give them time...

Hervoyel
12-10-2004, 07:30 PM
I think it's a combination of the above and the only real choice here is to leave it alone. Not because it's all the QB and RB's fault but because the only thing that's going to improve this bunch is time together and experience.

Wand, He's got to learn it and keep getting better. Right now he's wet behind the ears and learning his second scheme in two years.. That's not good and that's not just about the Texans line. Players that come up in stable systems, consistent systems have a head start on players who get their systems changed all the time. At this point I'd rather wait and see where this zone blocking scheme goes, see what we're looking at in 2005 and then draw a conclusion from that.

Pitts, He's doing his second system in three years and he's playing a new position for the first time in his career. All the talk about his being a natural guard has obscured the fact that he's always been a tackle even in college. He's destined to be a guard in the NFL but this is his first year there. He needs more time and like Wand he needs to not be learning a new system next year. Granted he'd have it easier going back to the old system since he started in it for two years before the zone blocking scheme got here but he'd have to learn what a guard does in the old scheme.

McKinney, the only cure for McKinney is I fear a replacement. McKinney was a better guard and is a terrible center. The Texans need to be looking at the draft for a center or if there isn't one there worth drafting they need to be looking to trade for or sign one. In terms of excuses his only one is that this is his first season with the zone blocking scheme. He might get it down better with time but he's always going to be Steve McKinney.

Weigert, second year here in his second system and playing next to a new guy on his right and Steve McKinney on his left. We know Weigert can play. We've seen him play and play well. I consider him to be a victim of what's going on around him, new players and a new system. If the zone blocking scheme is the future then I expect him to get it down and do well in it. Until he's next to a real center and Todd Wade gets comfortable though he's not going to look good consistently.

Wade, new guy in a new system. I'd have thought he would be settled in by now but I'd have been wrong. I still think he's going to be a good signing but like the rest of them he's taking to the zone slowly and he has been injured some this season.

The zone works elsewhere. The players we have are not bad players. At one time or another they've all (excluding Wand who's a first time starter and McKinney who is what he is) played well and I expect them to play well again. The learning part seems to be going slow and trying to learn a system while getting comfortable with a bunch of teammates you're unfamiliar with is probably very hard. I think changing again so quickly is going to set them back at this point. Hindsight might say that changing wasn't such a good idea (it does to me) but changing again is going to just mess things up even more.

One more year to see whether this is going to work. If they're looking at 6 wins in 2005 and the running game sucks rocks again then I say ditch it. For now though the Texans just need to sleep in the bed they made.

powda
12-10-2004, 07:31 PM
mckinney must be replaced. ideally i'd like for them to get a center who's versitile enough to play guard if necessary.

is it abundantly clear yet that fred weary will only be a depth player at best?
and-- i'd say the same for milford brown (a bit premature i know) ,but i seem to recall hearing rumblings from training camp that he had an honest chance to start.

i'm curious as to what the overall consensus is on seth wand.

i think hes been "ok" for the most part. (keep in mind i had visions of carr going down for the season because of him).

Hervoyel
12-10-2004, 08:53 PM
I did too Powda. Wand was the "Ok, this looks alright but it could all go to hell in one play" guy on the line I thought. Last season all I heard was that he was a project with no strength who had played at a small school with no coaching or conditioning program. I couldn't believe he'd be ready to start this season. I just couldn't make myself believe it.

You know what I'd like to know? I'd like to know how Wand has stacked up against Pitts in his first season at LT. To provide more balance I'd like to also know how he stacks up to Pitts in his second season. Has he been that big a drop off from Pitts? I'm curious but I'm not a statistics commando so perhaps someone who is good with them might chime in with that.

Also I think Milford Brown is an eventual starter. He came close to taking a spot this season. He's going to pan out but he's not going to be one of those guys who can jump in there and start right away. Most offensive linemen spend time behind a starter it seems so this isn't too bad. He's just not ready.

Fred Weary? I just don't know about Fred Weary. If Brown's getting it slowly then Weary's crawling. Maybe he's just a longterm project or maybe he's always going to be depth. All of our draft choices aren't going to pan out so maybe he's one of them. I just don't know. I know one thing though. The grabbed Pitts and Weary with an eye towards playing them at LG and RG respectively. They planned on supporting them with veterans surrounding them (Boselli, McKinney, and Young) but then they grabbed Brown in the expansion draft right away. Sure the Texans needed depth everywhere but deep down inside I think even then they had the idea in the back of their minds that Fred was going to take a while to come around. Since the got Brown I've never heard of Weary being a potential starter, just Brown on that side.

beerlover
12-10-2004, 08:53 PM
Defensive Line IMO. Texans offense ranks 14th in the NFL while the defense is 29th even though the secondary has the 2nd most interceptions. The front 3 of the Texans are not failing because of inexperience either with Walker in the NFL 10 years, Payne 8 & Smith 5. Heck even Marcus Spears has 10 years & Corey Sears 5. On the other hand your blasting a offensive line that includes some veteran leadership Weigert 10, McKinney 7 & Wade 5 but also has youngsters Pitts 3 & the KEY LT manned by 2 year Seth Wand.

Yes I agree that the Texans need to continue to build the line, I'd like them to use their 2nd round pick as a matter of fact on Ben Wilkerson C, LSU. But our #1 priotiry has to be the infusion of a stud DT that can put more pressure on the QB's. This has been far and away the most disappointing aspect of the 2004 Texans IMO.

infantrycak
12-10-2004, 11:30 PM
Here are the penalties and sacks for the line as it is now:

Wand--2 holding, 0 false starts, 7.5 sacks
Pitts--3 holding, 4 false starts, 3 sacks
(2003)--7 holding, 8 false starts, 5.75 sacks
(2002)--5 holding, 3 false starts, 15.5 sacks
McKinney--0 holding, 0 false starts, 3 sacks
(2003)--2 holding, 1 false start, 3.75 sacks
(2002)--0 holding, 2 false starts, 2 sacks
Wiegert--0 holding, 1 false start, 3 sacks
(2003)--1 holding, 6 false starts, 1.5 sacks
Wade--0 holding, 2 false starts, 4 sacks

Wand is on pace for a better statistical 1st year at LT than Pitts--of course remember, Wand has a much better LG next to him than Pitts did.

My gut feeling is the personnel is good except for McKinney and that a 1st day pick should be used to replace him and otherwise keep the line and the scheme the same.

Nice posts Herv--looks like pretty much the same conclusion with a much better explanation.

Fiddy
12-10-2004, 11:37 PM
Wand--2 holding, 0 false starts, 7.5 sacksDang, no false starts. That is a surprise. However, it would be fitting if he got a couple of early starts this week now that I know that he hasnt had a false start all season... :thud:

TexansTrueFan
12-10-2004, 11:54 PM
i'd like to see the sack numbers on him go down a little ! But other than that i have not been to dissapointed with his performance this year !

nunusguy
12-11-2004, 09:19 AM
Here are the penalties and sacks for the line as it is now:

Wand--2 holding, 0 false starts, 7.5 sacks
Pitts--3 holding, 4 false starts, 3 sacks
(2003)--7 holding, 8 false starts, 5.75 sacks
(2002)--5 holding, 3 false starts, 15.5 sacks
McKinney--0 holding, 0 false starts, 3 sacks
(2003)--2 holding, 1 false start, 3.75 sacks
(2002)--0 holding, 2 false starts, 2 sacks
Wiegert--0 holding, 1 false start, 3 sacks
(2003)--1 holding, 6 false starts, 1.5 sacks
Wade--0 holding, 2 false starts, 4 sacks


In all fairness to Wand (or who ever the LT is), ya gotta discount this # somewhat because he is usually going against the oppositions best
pass rusher.

nunusguy
12-11-2004, 09:32 AM
McKinney, the only cure for McKinney is I fear a replacement.
Great post Herv - you da man when it comes to the OL. So if we do look to the college draft to upgrade McKinney, we can probably get a "top-of-the-line" center (or guard) in the 2nd or even 3rd round, unlike a top tackle which
usually means a first round pick ?

ArlingtonTexan
12-11-2004, 09:49 AM
The key to the line has been the health of Wade. In the games he was totally out Spears was abused. I wonder what his numbers are. McKinney is playing the same as he has over 3 years. Decent position/pass blocker, but not a great power guy and can get bowled over at times. Even if the texans draft a center first lineman i expect that McKinney start next year before the prospect pass him.

7.5 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 20.5 sacks (not a terrible total) ...I know Spears gets a few more , but are there team sacks or do the TEs and RBs get some credit against them also?

Lucky
12-11-2004, 10:30 AM
Wand is on pace for a better statistical 1st year at LT than Pitts--of course remember, Wand has a much better LG next to him than Pitts did.

And Wand is playing with a more experienced QB, as well.

What are the O-line options? Going back to the draft and picking up a LT in the draft wonít help in the immediate future. Robert Gallery was the best LT prospect in years, and he had to start out his career at RT. Unless you want to find a way to bring in Walter Jones in the offseason, you have to wait on Wand. If Wand could just pound on the smaller RDEs in the running game, it would help him slow down their pass rush. But the Texans have trailed too often in the 2nd half to make that a viable strategy. Wand & Pitts have been burned on stunts. Hard to know whoís to blame there, but that has to get fixed or Carr will get waxed.

Pitts needs to improve, but his history here indicates he will improve in his 2nd season at a position. Is this the right scheme for a power blocking guy like Chester? Heís not extremely quick, but Pitts can man handle a guy who comes right at him. Look at what he did to Stroud in the Jag game. Itís guys like the Coltsí Reagor who have given Pitts problems. But I believe that Pitts (and Wand) will get better over time.

The other guys are vets, and time is not on their side. Iím satisfied with Wade, but he hasnít blown me away. Heís a solid, workman like lineman who doesnít make a lot of mistakes. You can win with Wade at RT, but he wonít dominate.

What has disappointed me about McKinney is that heís lost his quickness. He always had problems with players directly over him, but now he has trouble sliding over to double team or pick up blitzers. Has Steveís knee problem from the preseason carried over into the regular season? I thought the zone blocking scheme would be a good fit for McKinney, but that hasnít proven true. Still, can you bring in a rookie and ask him to make the line calls? It may be the í06 season before McKinney can be replaced.

Wiegertís sack numbers (Three?) seem low to me. I know heís given up a lot of penetration this year on runs & passes. Last season, Zach would demolish the guy in front of him. This year, heís taking bad angles and whiffing on blocks. The new blocking scheme may have hurt Wiegert more than anyone else. I see keeping Zach as an either/or proposition. Either Wiegert goes or the zone blocking is trashed. With his cap number rising to $3.3 million next year, Wiegert being replaced by a younger, cheaper, more athletic lineman seems to be the best choice. Regarding the reserve linemen on the Texans, if they could play it would have become apparant by now.

There are legendary O-line coaches who can piece together a unit from scraps. Hudson Houck (with the Chargers), Alex Gibbs, Jim McNally come to mind. If a guy like that became available, Iíd say jump on him. Otherwise, just stay with the guys that are here (Pendry & Marshall). And I wouldnít dump the zone blocking, but add to it. Run some traps, pull some linemen, block man on man sometimes. Donít be such a one trick pony.

With a quarter of the season left, I reserve the right to change my mind. But unless major improvement is shown over the last 4 games, I think something has to change regarding the O-line in í05.

Vinny
12-11-2004, 01:48 PM
The left side of the line is set. Pitts and Wand just need to continue to work together. They have the quickest feet of all the linemen and will be our left side for years.

Wade is going to be here for years also. RT is set.

Weigert and McKinney will need upgrading in the near future but it would not shock me to see this entire group as our starters next year.

Keldar
12-11-2004, 03:12 PM
mckinney must be replaced. ideally i'd like for them to get a center who's versitile enough to play guard if necessary.

Maybe "Inside Skinney" should sign up with his own business venture, Velocity. They are suppose to increase strength, quickness, and agility. :hmmm:

shansmacker
12-11-2004, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE=Vinny]The left side of the line is set. Pitts and Wand just need to continue to work together. They have the quickest feet of all the linemen and will be our left side for years.

Wade is going to be here for years also. RT is set.

I couldnt agree more with you Vinny.While the o-line stinks as a consistant unit I think were on the brink of having a good if not dominate o-line in the near future.Time together and maybe one upgrade and I think we"ll be there.

Hervoyel
12-11-2004, 05:54 PM
So to summarize even those of us who believe that switching blocking schemes might have been a mistake also think that our best chance of getting better is to push on with it. I think Carr could have used another season of consistency that would have come from the Texans building their running game on the previous years progress but that decision has been made. There's nothing to be gained now by trying to go back to what was. All we can do is keep trying to make "what is" work the way it's supposed to. It's going to be alright in the long run. I believe that.

AndreJ
12-11-2004, 06:47 PM
I do not understand why you people think we need a new center what's wrong with McKinney, someone please tell me! MAybe yall r looking at something that im not,but in my eyes McKinney is not the problem the problem is the LT, yes he goes up against some of the best, but heck we're in the NFL for crying out loud. I think we need a faster and more agile LT, IMO that is our #1 concern for the O-Line not McKinney.

Lucky
12-11-2004, 07:17 PM
...I think we need a faster and more agile LT, IMO that is our #1 concern for the O-Line not McKinney.
About what's wrong with McKinney...I think most people would agree that the Texans aren't getting much of a push in the middle of the O-line. That's where Steve lives. The Texans allow a lot of penetration up the middle from the pass rush. Again, where's Steve?

I think almost every team would like a more agile LT (in their price range). But, they don't grow on trees. I think Wand is a good athlete for a LT. He seems a little slow now because he's thinking rather than reacting. We're all hoping that changes with experience. Walter Jones might finally make it to free agency this offseason. Are you ready to give a 8 figure signing bonus to a 31 year old LT? More importantly, do you think Casserly would? I'm thinking he won't, so getting Wand experience now seems to be the smart play.

ArlingtonTexan
12-11-2004, 07:21 PM
I do not understand why you people think we need a new center what's wrong with McKinney, someone please tell me! MAybe yall r looking at something that im not,but in my eyes McKinney is not the problem the problem is the LT, yes he goes up against some of the best, but heck we're in the NFL for crying out loud. I think we need a faster and more agile LT, IMO that is our #1 concern for the O-Line not McKinney.

Wand does not have an issue with his feet quickness. he needs more strength and aggressivenss. also, the LT in most offense will have the highest sack total because they are normally facing the opposition's best pas pusher. McKinney gets blown up at times in the middle and never really gets a push. he was a better position/pass blocker but does not seem to do that as well. Wand has not been embarrassing on the left side considering its his first year as a starter. If dominate LT type comes available to the Texans then yeah go get him, but about half the team in the NFL have a worse situation at LT than the Texans.

aj.
12-11-2004, 07:54 PM
I do not understand why you people think we need a new center what's wrong with McKinney, someone please tell me! Watch the replay of McKinney vs. Randy Starks on the play when Carr should have been called for the safety against TN. That wasn't an isolated case and it's a very good example of why we are weak up the middle. That was supposed to be pass protection but he gets blown up on running plays too.

nunusguy
12-11-2004, 08:19 PM
Watch the replay of McKinney vs. Randy Starks
And replay the trade of Babin for Randy Starks & Ben Troupe. Woah ! Let
me see, do we need a TE (a real TE who can catch passes & who has the size to get a D linemans attention when he throws a block who is also young guy for the future) and a D lineman who played in the 3-4 in college who is there for the future and can start for us today. Geez Cass, did you lose your shirt on this deal or what ?

infantrycak
12-11-2004, 09:35 PM
As a frame of reference for Wade, here are Spears stats on very limited duty:

1 false start, 0 holds, 2 sacks.

As for McKinney, it just seems clear from rewatching the games that the center of the line is a huge problem, so much so that I would blame some of both Wiegert and Pitts' problems on McKinney. McKinney, good guy that he is, is simply incapable of getting the push on rushing plays or holding the line on passing plays that is necessary. We need the offensive opposite of Smith or Payne as a center--someone who never gets pushed back and if anything moves forward--a huge push forward upon which the D-line breaks around rather than a gap they can exploit. Going into this off-season, at this point center is what is the greatest need IMO.

bckey
12-12-2004, 12:10 AM
As a frame of reference for Wade, here are Spears stats on very limited duty:

1 false start, 0 holds, 2 sacks.

As for McKinney, it just seems clear from rewatching the games that the center of the line is a huge problem, so much so that I would blame some of both Wiegert and Pitts' problems on McKinney. McKinney, good guy that he is, is simply incapable of getting the push on rushing plays or holding the line on passing plays that is necessary. We need the offensive opposite of Smith or Payne as a center--someone who never gets pushed back and if anything moves forward--a huge push forward upon which the D-line breaks around rather than a gap they can exploit. Going into this off-season, at this point center is what is the greatest need IMO.


Agreed. Although DL, RB, and TE (If Joppru never plays) need to be addressed also. Hopefully we can get a free agent center and RB in the off season and continue to address defense in the draft.

big sarge
12-12-2004, 12:16 AM
I would go with a, and d. I think they could shake up things a bit more if they started someone else at center . Kinda like when they benched moon in 1990's and then the Oilers won 12 straight.

DreamCatcher
12-12-2004, 02:32 AM
Centre does look a weak point and McKinney is reducing the O,s effectiveness.

big sarge
12-12-2004, 02:39 AM
Personally I think they need to get there heads out of there fith point of contact and just play!

Fiddy
12-12-2004, 12:54 PM
Dang, no false starts. That is a surprise. However, it would be fitting if he got a couple of early starts this week now that I know that he hasnt had a false start all season... :thud:You have got to be kidding me. :rofl:

wags
12-12-2004, 04:28 PM
The left side of the line is set. Pitts and Wand just need to continue to work together. They have the quickest feet of all the linemen and will be our left side for years.


That is a scary thought. eek:

Both Pitts and Wiegert looked bad in pass protection, not to mention the false starts(Pitts 2, Wiegert 1). I wouldn't mind a new guard in the offseason.

Wand needs to get stronger. Much stronger.

Vinny
12-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Up and down game today. They were horrible at times and they had nice blocks at times. On balance it wasn't solid. I just don't understand why we have Wand on Freeney one-on-one so much.

nunusguy
12-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Wand needs to get stronger. Much stronger.
You know that Feeney can finesse Wand, but turns out he can also overpower him. And Wand has 75 lbs & 6-7 inches on him. The guy has got to be anemic for someone of that size. They need to get him in the weight room this winter and lock the doors.

wags
12-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Well our offensive line has managed to give up more sacks in 13 games this year (37) than all 16 last year (36). Congratulations guys. :sumo:

TexanExile
12-12-2004, 04:58 PM
From Mike Wilkening, Pro Football Weekly, November 18, 2004:

"Iím not trying to be flippant, but watching Carr scramble for his NFL life last week in the RCA Dome really got me questioning how long itís going to take the Texans to have consistent success. Because until the Texans start making Carr feel safe in the pocket, the painful defeats will be plenty, the playoff trips will be zero.

Carr was supposed to have endured the worst of the punishment at the hands of defensive linemen in his rookie season, when a patchwork line allowed a league-record 76 sacks. The O-line did make strides in 2003, allowing less than half as many sacks as it had the previous season. But personnel types around the AFC generally believed it to be a weak unit still in need of plenty of work.

Seeking better results, the Texans made a handful of personnel changes along the line in the offseason. Veteran ORT Todd Wade was signed away from Miami. Chester Pitts, Houstonís left tackle in those first two seasons, slid to left guard, with athletic Seth Wand taking over as Carrís blind-side protector.

After a rough start to this season (10 sacks allowed in the first three games), the line started to settle down. Carr was sacked only six times in the next four games. With time to throw, we saw Carr blossom. We saw the arm strength, accuracy and playmaking ability that convinced the Texans to build their team around him. Itís no coincidence Carr threw six touchdowns against only one interception in this stretch.

By Election Day, the Texans were factors in the AFC South, kicked around as hip, dark-horse division-title candidates.

But then came the trip to Denver, where the Broncos outmuscled them from the start. Carr was sacked four times, threw no touchdowns, and the Texans lost 31-13.
As bad as that performance was, the Colts game was much worse. DEs Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney whipped Wand and Marcus Spears, who was filling in for the injured Wade. The result was a 49-14 loss, which Carr, who was sacked five times and pressured on numerous occasions, unfavorably compared to the string of punishing defeats he took in 2002."

Full article (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+South/Houston/Features/2004/wilkening111804.htm)

I have no faith in Wand. I disagree with the idea that a young franchise QB's blind side should be trusted to someone they called a "project" in the offseason.

BuffSoldier
12-12-2004, 05:05 PM
Draft an O-Lineman, period.

keyfro
12-12-2004, 05:06 PM
i totally agree...if there is away seattle parts ways with walter jones because of their needs with saun alexander and matt we need to be the team that gets him...overpay him just to make sure he's on our roster next year...that's what i'm thinking...wand is a really good back-up...maybe a decent RT but as far as LT he doesn't seem to have the strength or the feet for it...personally i think pitts made a better LT than he did

Hervoyel
12-12-2004, 06:23 PM
I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing left to do but watch and wait for this mess to come together. If it takes the rest of this year and if Carr's beaten down into a little lump of bruised flesh then that's what's going to happen. There's no other solution to this.

You can't fix it right now no matter what happens. Moving Pitts back out to LT isn't going to make the last three games any easier on Carr. Changing the blocking scheme isn't going to correct things. It will only aggravate the inconsistency we already have there. Wand may be a project but he's a project we're in the middle of right now so we're going to have to see this through.

I've also spent some time considering my criticism of the coaches decision to implement the zone blocking scheme. Upon reflection I think I was wrong and lest anyone say that I'm retracting because of the day DD had against the Colts I'd like to add that this thought has been bouncing around my head for several days.

Had Capers & Co. opted to install the zone blocking scheme in 2002 when the team began I think the effort would have been wasted. Wand and Wade weren't even here then. Pitts wasn't playing the same position then, and McKinney was... well he was and still is Steve McKinney. Basically they'd have been taking the time to teach a blocking scheme to a bunch of guys who were not going to be here in the following years. Today we'd be looking at Pitts learning the scheme for the first time in his new position, Wade and Wand learning it for the first time in their positions, Weigert in his second year in it, and McKinney sucking at it for two years in a row.

I now conceed that this season with all of it's warts was the correct time to implement such a scheme and that the rewards we all want to see should become apparent in 2005 if they are in fact going to happen. As fans we're all just going to have to suck it up and watch the end of this train wreck and then be ready to come back for some more football in 2005.

The only other option is to jump the wagon and go get a silver and blue cap with a star on it (or something along those lines) and I'm not going to do that while I still have a choice. Capers ain't going anywhere, Palmer ain't going anywhere, and the zone blocking scheme ain't going anywhere. If it looks this bad next year then maybe some changes might be coming down the pipe but no sooner than that.

nunusguy
12-12-2004, 07:33 PM
I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing left to do but watch and wait for this mess to come together. If it takes the rest of this year and if Carr's beaten down into a little lump of bruised flesh then that's what's going to happen. There's no other solution to this.

You're gettin' pretty graphic on us there Herv. I don't think we want poor Dave's physical appearance to approach that condition, else he wouldn't have
time to play or practice because he'd be so beat-up & sheel-shocked he'd be spending all of his time in the hospital and talking to a shrink. But whatever
they decide to do about zone-blocking (keep it or drop it), they still gotta find some people who can pass-block & protect Dave when he drops back to pass. Especially over on the LT island.

bckey
12-12-2004, 07:37 PM
Actually Wade had zone blocking in Miami. The Texans will still have to teach zone blocking to whoever replaces Wiegert and McKinney. I still think it would have been better to start it in 2002 than now. It did look like we ran the ball better today so maybe this is a sign of improvement although pass blocking is horrible.

Here is a good article from www.Houstonprofootball.com

November 25, 2004
It's All Downhill From Here
by Keith Weiland
HoustonProFootball.com

Ten games into the season and the Texans' running game is still going nowhere. With the implementation of a slight variation of the zone blocking scheme on the offensive line, werenít we supposed to be watching something akin to what we see in Denver and Baltimore?

big sarge
12-12-2004, 09:21 PM
I think that if Carr is beat up for another season, he might just start getting the screw it all attitude. I mean hell I wouldn't piss on fire to put my o-line out if they aren't going to do there freakin jobs and block like they r supposed to. I mean c'mon guys, I know they don't get paid much, but it's a hell of alot more than what I make and my job is 10 times as painfull and dangerous.

ArlingtonTexan
12-12-2004, 09:21 PM
Wand does not have an issue with his feet quickness. he needs more strength and aggressivenss. also, the LT in most offense will have the highest sack total because they are normally facing the opposition's best pas pusher. Wand has not been embarrassing on the left side considering its his first year as a starter. If dominate LT type comes available to the Texans then yeah go get him, but about half the team in the NFL have a worse situation at LT than the Texans.

Can I take this back???

Lucky
12-12-2004, 09:55 PM
Can I take this back???

I thought you pretty much nailed this:

Wand does not have an issue with his feet quickness. he needs more strength and aggressivenss

Who knew Freeney would be stronger than Wand? I don't think even Freeney realized that until the 2nd half.

TexanBacker93
12-13-2004, 09:38 PM
I think i've figured out the line problems. With Joe Pendry on board the Texans have switched to a zone blocking scheme.

This year the focus is on the zone part.
Next year they learn to block.

:jumpbanan

Then, it's time to celebrate.

Seth Wand did a wonderful impersonation of the ticket takers at the gates. Although, they do sometimes slow people up a bit.

cuppacoffee
12-14-2004, 08:48 AM
"Seth Wand did a wonderful impersonation of the ticket takers at the gates. Although, they do sometimes slow people up a bit."

Man........thats cold. :bouncey:

cac :coffee:

TheOgre
12-14-2004, 09:41 AM
We cannot afford to be below average on the line much longer. Carr is regressing as a result of the poor line play. He is developing bad habits as a result of running for his life. McKinney is definitely a liability. I hope he is gone by the start of the 2006 season. I am not convinced that Wand will get much better either. Here are the areas we need to consider addressing this offseason:

1. NT - Payne is not the same player he was before the injury. It seems like the best 3-4 teams have dominant NT's. We really MUST have one to make this work.
2. Center - McKinney isn't getting it done. Replacing him may improve the play of the guards.
3. TE - We cannot count on Joppru to be healthy. Miller and Bruener are 1-dimensional. We need to give Carr better short options than just DD and occasionally Miller.
4. ILB - Foreman is great at making a tackle 5-10 yards downfield. He is just too slow.
5. LT - Wand is a project. If we have a shot at a better LT in this draft, do we pass it up? IMO it is the most important position on offense after QB.
6. WR - Bradford is probably gone. Do we have a speedster option (Starling?) other than AJ when he leaves?
7. RB - Are we sold on DD as our back? He has looked good the last 3 weeks but where was he during the rest of the season? Hollings is looking like a bust (although the verdict isn't in quite yet). Wells is nothing but a solid backup.

Hervoyel
12-14-2004, 10:27 AM
We cannot afford to be below average on the line much longer. Carr is regressing as a result of the poor line play. He is developing bad habits as a result of running for his life. McKinney is definitely a liability. I hope he is gone by the start of the 2006 season. I am not convinced that Wand will get much better either. Here are the areas we need to consider addressing this offseason:

1. NT - Payne is not the same player he was before the injury. It seems like the best 3-4 teams have dominant NT's. We really MUST have one to make this work.
2. Center - McKinney isn't getting it done. Replacing him may improve the play of the guards.
3. TE - We cannot count on Joppru to be healthy. Miller and Bruener are 1-dimensional. We need to give Carr better short options than just DD and occasionally Miller.
4. ILB - Foreman is great at making a tackle 5-10 yards downfield. He is just too slow.
5. LT - Wand is a project. If we have a shot at a better LT in this draft, do we pass it up? IMO it is the most important position on offense after QB.
6. WR - Bradford is probably gone. Do we have a speedster option (Starling?) other than AJ when he leaves?
7. RB - Are we sold on DD as our back? He has looked good the last 3 weeks but where was he during the rest of the season? Hollings is looking like a bust (although the verdict isn't in quite yet). Wells is nothing but a solid backup.


Oh I don't know Ogre. Wand is obviously playing like the rookie which for all intents and purposes I still think of him as. He's in his second year but we all knew he had a big jump to make coming from "The University of Nowhere Important" to the NFL. He was lacking experience against quality defenses, strength, and coaching. He's getting those and I think he'll get better.

Carr is showing signs of regression because of this and I don't know what you do to stop that from happening. We're going to play the rest of this season with the line just like it is so he's got three more weeks of this kind of pass protection before a well deserved vacation. The best thing for Carr right now (though maybe it won't be the best thing for the win column) would be for the Texans to spend these three weeks focusing on the running game. It's started to come around a little bit lately. Davis needs to keep it up and the line needs as much work as they can get. We need to take as much of the load off of Carr as we can for now and hopefully come back next season improved.

On your points

1. I'm all for drafting someone to push Payne or spell him as necessary if a player fitting the bill is available when we pick. I think Payne will be back to his old self next season so I'm not worried so much about him as I am about what we do after he's gone. He won't last forever and all it would take would be one more real bad knee injury to put us back where we were in 2003. We need someone behind Payne who can do the job.

2. Yes to that one too. McKinney needs to at least have his eventual replacement waiting in the wings. I'd like to see the Texans find another center because I too think McKinney isn't getting the job done. If we need to draft one (and if there's one the Texans like) then he won't probably be ready to take over for McKinney until 2006 but that's fine. By then the guards on either side of him will be better. If we can aquire one through free agency then that's a quicker fix but more expensive. Either way though McKinney has to go.

3. Joppru has had one terrible career so far and the Texans need a real TE badly. Miller and Bruener are both good at what they do but niether one does it all. This is a tough call I think. Do the Texans spend a pick on another TE or do they wait and see if Joppru is going to be ready to get to work. 2 years is a lot of time to wait for your draft pick to get in a game. I bet the Texans give him another camp to see if he can do it. If he breaks down during the course of next season though (assuming he makes it out of camp without another problem) then I think they have to be prepared to move forward after that and find someone else.

4. ILB, yeah get me one of those in the draft. In reality Wong is the inside linebacker we need. We should be starting Babin, Sharper, Wong, and Peek right now and hopefully we will be spending a lot of time in that combination the rest of the season. Wong came here to play on the outside so he may not be happy inside but that's where he belongs and where the team needs him. If he doesn't want to adjust to that then it's time to find another ILB.

5. Wand is the LT. He needs to have Bruener over there every down to hold his hand but he needs to play if he's ever going to get past being a project. I don't think we need a LT right now for anything other than depth. If the Texans spend a first day pick on the o-line I want to see it be a center.

6. Bradford is probably gone I agree. It's possible he doesn't get the bites in free agency though and he could be back. There's an outside chance I think. If he isn't (and we should be thinking he won't be) then yeah Kendrick Starling is a 4.39 guy who could do what Bradford does. Fast enough? Yep. Inconsistent hands? Yep. Sounds like he can do everything Bradford does. Also we've got Sloan Thomas on our practice squad. Not as fast but he's available. I wouldn't have a problem with the Texans drafting another speed guy though in the upcoming draft.

7. Unless a guy the Texans like better falls into their laps I bet that Domanick Davis is going to be the starter when the 2005 season opens. Just you wait and see. He's going to get himself a hundred plus yards in the rest of our games this year, finish with a little past 1,100 yards and 11-12 touchdowns and that will be just enough to buy him another season up front. His poor performance this year will be attributed to the new blocking scheme and by the time the team goes to camp people will be talking about how he's going to get 1,500 or 1,600 yards in 2005.

Will he get it? Probably not but who knows. If he doesn't I don't think it's going to be because he isn't fast enough, big enough, or good enough at breaking tackles. DD's all of those things. It will be because he can't stay healthy long enough to do it and the Texans know this by now. They'll draft a back this year and maybe sign another free agent running back but they won't be handing the job to them. they'll be for insurance. Even if they do get to select a kick butt back he's going to have to beat out Davis for the job and that's not going to be real easy while Davis is healthy. He won't stay healthy long though and that will be their chance to grab the spot.

dalemurphy
12-14-2004, 10:36 AM
Up and down game today. They were horrible at times and they had nice blocks at times. On balance it wasn't solid. I just don't understand why we have Wand on Freeney one-on-one so much.


It's unbelievable! They have one playmaker on defense and we allow him the opportunity to make plays on every important 3rd down. I saw one chip- it was quite effective by the way... and I didn't see any double teams on passing plays. It was almost enough for me to start a "Fire Palmer" thread. I've been very supportive of him, but it's inconceivable that, in the 2nd meeting of the year against the Colts, we have so few packages that incorportate a double team on Dwight Freeney!!

TheOgre
12-14-2004, 10:36 AM
It sounds like you agree with me on the weak areas but not necessarily on the remedies. There is no doubt that we likely won't fix all of these areas in one offseason. The bare minimum I think we need a center and a NT.

wiley2002
12-14-2004, 10:42 AM
The Texans have had their share of bad luck on the o-line but with us playing some awful teams down the line, I think we may have three wins in a row. A bit worried about the Jacksonville game.

nunusguy
12-14-2004, 06:53 PM
The bare minimum I think we need a center and a NT.
Gotta add TE to the bare minimum list. They really need to find out about Joppru and I was hoping they'd have activated him instead of going the IR rout with him as they did. Some had said this will give him a chance to start
next summer in camp with a clean slate/opportunity to make the team, but we don't have the luxury of that kind of time to wait to see if Joppru pans out. Therefor I figure they will draft or pick up a TE from FA and have Joppru compete with him. Under that scenario we could end up with redundancy at TE - bad management for us because its a waste of precious resources.

edo783
12-14-2004, 10:39 PM
Yes we could wind up with two potential starter type TE's that have consumed first day picks, but at this point I don't think we have much choice. If they both prove to be starter quality, we can probably recover our draft pick cost with a trade in a year or two.

Vinny
12-14-2004, 11:38 PM
Under that scenario we could end up with redundancy at TE - bad management for us because its a waste of precious resources.Kinda like the redundancy the Patriots had when they drafted TE's in the first round twice in the last three years? (Ben Watson 31st overall and Daniel Graham 21st overall), or perhaps the Colts drafting 2 first day TE's when they already had Pollard? (Ben Hartsock 68th overall and Dallas Clark 24th overall pick both in the last two years). Just between these two teams they have used 4 first day picks on TE's in the last 3 years.

We wanted to run a two TE scheme. Drafting another TE is not out of the question nor would it be foolhardy if a good one is available even if Joppru becomes a pro bowler. One of our biggest problems is our lack of offensive diversity. Having a couple of one-dimensional TE's isn't helping our team score points.

powda
12-14-2004, 11:42 PM
well as things stand right now our biggest problem on offense is our line. one of the easiest ways to help out with pass protection is by adding another lineman...one who happens to be eligible to catch a pass wouldnt be so bad.

nunusguy
12-15-2004, 07:54 AM
Kinda like the redundancy the Patriots had when they drafted TE's in the first round twice in the last three years? (Ben Watson 31st overall and Daniel Graham 21st overall), or perhaps the Colts drafting 2 first day TE's when they already had Pollard? (Ben Hartsock 68th overall and Dallas Clark 24th overall pick both in the last two years). Just between these two teams they have used 4 first day picks on TE's in the last 3 years.
We wanted to run a two TE scheme. Drafting another TE is not out of the question nor would it be foolhardy if a good one is available even if Joppru becomes a pro bowler. One of our biggest problems is our lack of offensive diversity. Having a couple of one-dimensional TE's isn't helping our team score points.
The breadth and depth of quality personnel that the Patriots & Colts have on their respective rosters is something that we can only dream about @ this point in time. We have far too many needs on both sides of the ball that
prevent us from having the luxury of using multiple first-day draft picks and/or extravagant FA acquisitions on multiple TEs.

TheOgre
12-15-2004, 09:34 AM
I started to add TE to the list. It does need to be addressed. I left TE off the list because the team my believe we have one in Joppru. Personally I am with Vinny, there is nothing wrong with having two good all-purpose TE's. Indy had it with Dilger and Pollard and now has it with Pollard and Clark. It works well for them.

infantrycak
12-15-2004, 10:18 AM
Kinda like the redundancy the Patriots had when they drafted TE's in the first round twice in the last three years? (Ben Watson 31st overall and Daniel Graham 21st overall), or perhaps the Colts drafting 2 first day TE's when they already had Pollard? (Ben Hartsock 68th overall and Dallas Clark 24th overall pick both in the last two years). Just between these two teams they have used 4 first day picks on TE's in the last 3 years.

We wanted to run a two TE scheme. Drafting another TE is not out of the question nor would it be foolhardy if a good one is available even if Joppru becomes a pro bowler. One of our biggest problems is our lack of offensive diversity. Having a couple of one-dimensional TE's isn't helping our team score points.

Good and bad as examples IMO. Watson has played in a grand total of one game this year, contributing 2 receptions. Hartsock has "played" in 13 games and has 0 receptions. The Patriots really don't use their TE's much as receivers, although the Colts certainly do and have split about evenly between Pollard and Clark. A second complete TE is a luxury IMO compared to other needs for immediate impact on the team. Now "second" is the $64K question--is Joppru the first or not? This is one of those deals where IMO you just have to trust the team and doctors. If they have significant doubts, by all means TE is a priority. If they don't then TE drops way down the list. We as fans will simply never have enough information to adequately judge the odds and the only indication we are likely to get from the Texans is whether a TE is drafted in the 1st 3 rounds.

TheOgre
12-15-2004, 10:24 AM
The problem, Infantry, is that we cannot afford to go another season without a "true" (2 dimensional) TE. If we are going into the 3rd season in a row count on Joppru, we are obviously not learning very well. IMO we should treat it as if we don't have a TE going into this season and act accordingly. If Joppru pans out, it is a bonus. If not, we have it covered.

infantrycak
12-15-2004, 10:47 AM
That is what I was trying to get at though--the difference in perspective and information between fans, and the combination of the player/team/doctors. From our perspective it looks like we should act like Joppru is not there. If every piece of information the player/team/doctors have is that Joppru could be playing right now and will be fine next year then I hope the Texans use that information to make an informed plan for drafting rather than just ignoring it. Is there a risk--sure--but if it pays off the return will be greater.

pek281
12-15-2004, 10:56 AM
My answer: A

We have a new LT, LG and RT to go along with a new scheme. Give them time...


I agree that the offensive problems center squarely on the O-Line.

As for the zone blocking, it's been proven by several teams that it can be very effective and with Davis' health returning, I think the past two or three games has shown us that IS starting to finally show some results.

I also agree completely with Fiddy that they just need time. It takes at least one season for an O-line to gel.

Vinny
12-15-2004, 11:30 AM
Good and bad as examples IMO. Watson has played in a grand total of one game this year, contributing 2 receptions. Hartsock has "played" in 13 games and has 0 receptions. The Patriots really don't use their TE's much as receivers, although the Colts certainly do and have split about evenly between Pollard and Clark. The Patriots planned to but Watson only played in one game due to being on IR. Hartsock may not have any receptions but Pollard is a FA this year and they didn't draft him to make a contribution this year.

infantrycak
12-15-2004, 11:44 AM
The Patriots planned to but Watson only played in one game due to being on IR. Hartsock may not have any receptions but Pollard is a FA this year and they didn't draft him to make a contribution this year.

Didn't realize Watson was on IR, but Hartsock to me is a good example of either a team believing they have the luxury of letting the guy sit a year (which we don't have just because I can't stand the threads on the blown pick) or a good argument could be made that Indy would have been better served by drafting someone for D this year like--Randy Starks, Matt Ware, Derrick Strait, etc. that were taken shortly thereafter. All that said, I am not anti-TE by any means--but through FA/draft would like to see a center, ILB and another CB also as priorities.

Vinny
12-15-2004, 11:52 AM
I'm not so sure that you have to play a guy his first year in order to consider it a good pick for that particular draft. You don't want to wait till the last min and play rookies because you are forced too. The Colts have a good D line. Why draft the lazy Starks when you know you are losing Pollard in a year? He fell to the 3rd round for a reason...and it wasn't because he wasn't talented. Keith Bulluck sat behind Favors for two years and guys like Jason Gildon sat for two years while learning their respective systems. I was reading in another thread that Mistril declared the Cowboys "set back" earlier in the year because they didn't draft Steven Jackson because he could have played earlier than the injured Jones. I don't understand that kind of thinking.

ArlingtonTexan
12-15-2004, 11:57 AM
Here is what he have @ TE...

One guy who had one good year catching the ball, and is a below average blocker.

One guy who was once regarded as an above blocker, but is now is closer to avergae because of age and injury and has always been a belwo average pass catcher.

One guy who last live game action was the 2003 Senoir bowl because of injuries. when he lines up in a preseason game it will 2.5 years since live game action.

One guy obtained off the practive squad who has not been regularly activiated.

IMO, going into the off-season the only position in worse shape is the DL. i zero issues with a FA acquisition and/or a high draft pick. It is not a luxury.

infantrycak
12-15-2004, 12:00 PM
I'm not so sure that you have to play a guy his first year in order to consider it a good pick for that particular draft.

I absolutely agree with this statement--hence the fact that I made a joke about it. In fact, hopefully it will be increasingly difficult for rookies to break into the starting lineup.

ArlingtonTexan
12-15-2004, 12:17 PM
I absolutely agree with this statement--hence the fact that I made a joke about it. In fact, hopefully it will be increasingly difficult for rookies to break into the starting lineup.

even though there are 'need' positions for the Texans, i don't think that there is one where a rookie automatically starts as it has been the 1st three years.

TheOgre
12-15-2004, 12:22 PM
even though there are 'need' positions for the Texans, i don't think that there is one where a rookie automatically starts as it has been the 1st three years.

I agree. If we get a NT and/or C in the draft, they probably won't start in 2005. Those are still areas that need serious draft consideration.

wags
12-16-2004, 05:56 PM
Apparently the Texans had Spears working at left tackle some in practice. :shocked Seth Wand is still the starter though.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1415

Vinny
12-17-2004, 01:15 AM
I also agree completely with Fiddy that they just need time. It takes at least one season for an O-line to gel.Bingo

Most people on this message board want to give Carr 4 years to develop but want to give the line one or two years to develop before we call for their heads (we have players in new positions in 4 of the 6 line positions if you include the TE). I guess Carr gets a special exemption from the fans because he is prettier than the linemen. Everyone who posts over and over about being patient with Carr needs to do the same with the O-line if they want any credibility. Both the line and Carr will have plenty of time to work out their problems by next year.

Ibar_Harry
12-17-2004, 03:35 AM
A lot of people say we are a one dimensional team. That's because we have a one dimensional coaching staff. I laugh at all of the nonsense being posted here. It comes from the heart, and I understand that, but nobody can see the tree for the forest. You take an outstanding O-line coach and we have a SB line. I'm sorry, but the answer is as simple as that. The players are confused and it shows. They don't know what their assingments really are. I've stated it many times, and many others have in so many words, and that is DOM only wants to play smash mouth football with a team that is incapable of playing that way. He has changed his offensive scheme to be that type of a team, except he doesn't have the personnel to play that type of game. They draft a QB whose forte is passing, not handing off the ball to a running back. They draft an extemely talented WR by the name of AJ and he wastes away in an anemic offense. Why does everyone think theses coaches are Saints? On second thought, may be they are. I know if I were the owner I would be less than joyous watching the lack luster performances I'm seeing on the field. There is one player they put through hell before the season began and he's the only consistant player on the ball club and thats JJ. He has the luxury of only having to play a few times each game. He consistantly does his job. I think most of you are going to be unpleasantly surprised at how badly we loose to the Bears and the rest of the teams we play this year. There is no heart and soul left in this team. This team has been badly mismanged and miscoached. Again you play a style of ball that fits the personnel you have, and you don't dream and play like you have Bettis.

rhc564
12-17-2004, 03:52 AM
A lot of people say we are a one dimensional team. That's because we have a one dimensional coaching staff. I laugh at all of the nonsense being posted here. It comes from the heart, and I understand that, but nobody can see the tree for the forest. You take an outstanding O-line coach and we have a SB line. I'm sorry, but the answer is as simple as that. The players are confused and it shows. They don't know what their assingments really are. I've stated it many times, and many others have in so many words, and that is DOM only wants to play smash mouth football with a team that is incapable of playing that way. He has changed his offensive scheme to be that type of a team, except he doesn't have the personnel to play that type of game. They draft a QB whose forte is passing, not handing off the ball to a running back. They draft an extemely talented WR by the name of AJ and he wastes away in an anemic offense. Why does everyone think theses coaches are Saints? On second thought, may be they are. I know if I were the owner I would be less than joyous watching the lack luster performances I'm seeing on the field. There is one player they put through hell before the season began and he's the only consistant player on the ball club and thats JJ. He has the luxury of only having to play a few times each game. He consistantly does his job. I think most of you are going to be unpleasantly surprised at how badly we loose to the Bears and the rest of the teams we play this year. There is no heart and soul left in this team. This team has been badly mismanged and miscoached. Again you play a style of ball that fits the personnel you have, and you don't dream and play like you have Bettis.

Charlie Weiss, the new Notre Dame Coach/ex Patriots OC, made some
interesting statements ( can be found on the Notre Dame web site ) at
his press conference when asked what kind of offense the Fighting Irish
will have next year. Weiss's answer was that it depended on the personnel
he had but there were 3 basic themes that depended upon where the
strength of the offense was-- strength could be tight ends, or running
backs, or wide receivers. His offense will feature whatever group provides
the best oppurtunity to win. He only mentioned the OL as the remaining 5
players that make up an offense but-basically-will not dictate what offense
will be run. He also had interesting comments about excuses!!

aj.
12-17-2004, 06:50 AM
The grass is always greener. I remember when everyone in Cleveland wanted Belichick ran off because he didn't know what he was doing. I remember when everyone wanted Butch Davis because he was the next coming of Tom Landry.

rittenhouserobz
12-17-2004, 07:10 AM
I just have a small question. Why would they draft a stud WR like AJ, then try to instill a blocking scheme that helps build a run dominated offense? I think we did AJ a disservice by drafting him and putting him in this system that accentuates running the ball as well as Carr. We Should have drafted completely differently. OL, DL, RB, LB's should have our focus. Any QB can handoff and throw dump passes. I honestly do not believe right now there is a system that uses AJ correctly. Mike Martz or Tony Dungy would have AJ with 1400 yards and 12 TD's right now. Sorry I am tired of watching games where I here the annoucer say "Why aren't they getting it to Andre Johnson? He has to get into the offense more for them to win." Does anybody ever remember hearing the announcers say that? :hairpull: :soapbox:

HJam72
12-17-2004, 07:42 AM
Well, this may be the first time a 3rd year expansion team has had a receiver like AJ. They're O-line isn't dominating at anything at all. This is NOT the production they want from their line.

Marcus
12-17-2004, 09:23 AM
Sorry I am tired of watching games where I here the annoucer say "Why aren't they getting it to Andre Johnson? He has to get into the offense more for them to win." Does anybody ever remember hearing the announcers say that?

More than likely, the announcers don't have any more of a clue to what's going on than we do. :heh:

Chance_C
12-17-2004, 11:56 AM
More than likely, the announcers don't have any more of a clue to what's going on than we do

Evidently they don't.
And to all you criers for AJ, how about 71 catches and a possible pro bowl appearance. Yeah, I guess we did him a disservice.

And Ibar, how about posting about something other than how much you can't stand our coaches. I guess by your terms anyone could be our QB because all they have to do is hand the ball off. Heck, let's just phone up Ryan Leaf. I may not know what I'm talking about most of the time, but your redundant ***** posts are getting old. Get a clue.

HJam72
12-17-2004, 12:23 PM
More than likely, the announcers don't have any more of a clue to what's going on than we do. :heh:

I think the coaches around the league may be the only ones who do know more than some of you guys. A lot of the so-called experts are clueless.

Hervoyel
12-17-2004, 12:26 PM
And to all you criers for AJ, how about 71 catches and a possible pro bowl appearance. Yeah, I guess we did him a disservice.

Totally outside your point and everything but when I read this I thought "You know, in a few years we're going to be thinking that 71 catches makes for a down year for AJ" and that was a cool mental picture that popped into my head. I just had one of those "Damn he's going to be good!" moments.

Ibar_Harry
12-17-2004, 01:06 PM
Evidently they don't.
And to all you criers for AJ, how about 71 catches and a possible pro bowl appearance. Yeah, I guess we did him a disservice.

And Ibar, how about posting about something other than how much you can't stand our coaches. I guess by your terms anyone could be our QB because all they have to do is hand the ball off. Heck, let's just phone up Ryan Leaf. I may not know what I'm talking about most of the time, but your redundant ***** posts are getting old. Get a clue.

My posts are redundant, because the coaches are the problem. By the way Ryan Leaf probably would do well with this offense and would be a lot less expensive.

Ibar_Harry
12-17-2004, 01:16 PM
Charlie Weiss, the new Notre Dame Coach/ex Patriots OC, made some
interesting statements ( can be found on the Notre Dame web site ) at
his press conference when asked what kind of offense the Fighting Irish
will have next year. Weiss's answer was that it depended on the personnel
he had but there were 3 basic themes that depended upon where the
strength of the offense was-- strength could be tight ends, or running
backs, or wide receivers. His offense will feature whatever group provides
the best oppurtunity to win. He only mentioned the OL as the remaining 5
players that make up an offense but-basically-will not dictate what offense
will be run. He also had interesting comments about excuses!!

Thanks for the post, because this has been the heart and soul of many of my posts. Many fans keep posting the things they see wrong including Vinny. However, the solution to all of the problems are a new set of coaches, some new players, and yes, we are going to have to start over. Why, because injuries along with coaching have desimated this team for at least another 2 to 3 years if we are lucky. Injuries have hurt Capers defensive system and rendered it usless. That's unfornuate, but Casserly and Capers were expecting a greater length of service out of some key older and experienced defensive players. That plan blew up with the injuries. The end result is that they must retrench and start new. Unfortunately, that alone will take at least two years and may be longer.

AndreJ
12-17-2004, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the post, because this has been the heart and soul of many of my posts. Many fans keep posting the things they see wrong including Vinny. However, the solution to all of the problems are a new set of coaches, some new players, and yes, we are going to have to start over. Why, because injuries along with coaching have desimated this team for at least another 2 to 3 years if we are lucky. Injuries have hurt Capers defensive system and rendered it usless. That's unfornuate, but Casserly and Capers were expecting a greater length of service out of some key older and experienced defensive players. That plan blew up with the injuries. The end result is that they must retrench and start new. Unfortunately, that alone will take at least two years and may be longer.

What in the HELL are you talkin about? The coaches are not going anywhere as was stated in the in the paper a few days ago. What injuries are you talkin about (Coleman, Foreman)? Everyone besides them is healthy. You make it seem like we have as many injuries as the TITANS right now. Arron Glenn should play for about 2 maybe 3 more years. Jamie still has some left in him, the only player i really see that needs to retire is Gary Walker, he's a good guy, but he's old and needs to hang it up.

As for the coaches, regardless of what any of you think. It doesn't matter how good of a coach you are, if the guys you have physically don't have any talent, they're not going to play good (Offensive Line; Seth Wand). If he is not physically able to play against the RE's of other teams. It doesn't matter what you tell that persn as a coach, he AIN'T, yes i said AIN'T, going to get the job done!

Bottom Line. :hairpull:
__________________________________________________ _______________

Get off the coaches back, good lord. They are not leaving anytime soon deal with it! :whew

infantrycak
12-17-2004, 01:39 PM
That's unfornuate, but Casserly and Capers were expecting a greater length of service out of some key older and experienced defensive players. That plan blew up with the injuries. The end result is that they must retrench and start new. Unfortunately, that alone will take at least two years and may be longer.

Where do you get this stuff? Four of eleven likely defensive starters next year will be young guys coming into their own--Babin, Robinson, Peek & Earl. I would bet Payne comes back to his 2003 form next year and Robaire is a young guy that will have a year of 3-4 under his belt. Wong will be coming off the best season he's ever had. There is no reason this D cannot respond next year, especially with the infusion of another defense heavy draft--and if your expectations were to have the Baltimore defense this year, they were out of whack to begin with.

edo783
12-17-2004, 02:01 PM
Ibar, does your glass EVER get half full? It may have happened, but I have yet to see a positive post by you. There are a LOT of positives for this team and MOST of the unrest on the board are from over inflated expectations for this season. If you check the stats for offense in nearly every catagory and most skill positions we are at about the middle of the league and that's not bad for a team that hasn't even finished its third season. Yes, we have been very inconsistant and the defense isn't playing as well as the experience level would indicate, but all is not a disaster, it just needs a bit more time and play together for the most part and a few more players.

TexanExile
12-17-2004, 04:33 PM
The grass is always greener. I remember when everyone in Cleveland wanted Belichick ran off because he didn't know what he was doing. I remember when everyone wanted Butch Davis because he was the next coming of Tom Landry.

100% agree....remember when Belichick was derided as a guy who was a coordinator who wasn't head-coach material? (Sounds vaguely familiar...)

To the issue of how long we give each player before we say they should stay or go, it's difficult. Chester Pitts is still here and he hasn't been part of a successful offensive line yet; how many Oiler fans remember how truly bad Brad Hopkins was with false starts in the early part of his career? If a guy has shown flashes of greatness he may just need time to get consistent. I hope that's what they're seeing with Pitts, because he literally couldn't be given any more chances than he's getting. (Worth noting that he did make a position change this year, albeit to his "natural" position.)

Pitts, though, was never labeled a "project" or given the job basically because he's huge. That's my gripe with Seth Wand. He's a big guy and that's about it. So's my mechanic, but I don't expect him to be an NFL tackle. End the "project" and find somebody who belongs in this league.

Carr? I've heard NFL minds say for years that a QB needs 4 seasons to mature. During the hot streak this year, I thought Carr may have suddenly cut that short and figured it all out. Obviously not. I'll wait another year to break out the pitchforks and torches for Carr, Capers, etc....

Teams in constant flux generally don't get better. More than anything, I don't want the Texans to become another Arizona or Washington, where mediocrity is expected. Ironically, the best way to ensure that sort of fate is to RAISE the expectations too quickly. I fully expect this team to finish 7-9 or 8-8, and that's not an unreasonable expectation. If they have the same record in January that they do right now, then it may indeed be appropriate to make SOME changes--but not wholesale ones.

Ibar_Harry
12-18-2004, 03:21 AM
Where do you get this stuff? Four of eleven likely defensive starters next year will be young guys coming into their own--Babin, Robinson, Peek & Earl. I would bet Payne comes back to his 2003 form next year and Robaire is a young guy that will have a year of 3-4 under his belt. Wong will be coming off the best season he's ever had. There is no reason this D cannot respond next year, especially with the infusion of another defense heavy draft--and if your expectations were to have the Baltimore defense this year, they were out of whack to begin with.

I think there are real questions as to how effective Payne and Walker will be from here on out. You think they will be fully recovered and I do not. We suffered more injuries than any one else last year and that's a fact. Those injuries have had an enormous effect on what has happened this year. People were still healing at the beginning of the season and they played on. We have not been able to attain last year's efficiency. Everyone had hoped BJ would be back, but he's not. Will he every be back? Will Hollings ever make it? The list goes on and on. I'm not saying its the coaches fault that players got injured, but it is a fact that we have had some very devastating injuries to players. I personally think we will have to due a lot of retrenching. I think Glenn might be on the downhill side of things. Part of his performance this year could be the result of lack of a pass rush, but only time will tell. Coleman was converted to his new position, in part, because of age. Now he's injured. Will it be fixed, probably, but its not a certain thing. The Bosselli injury was a gamble. We have gambled a lot on injured personnel recovering and it hasn't happened as well as we would like.

nunusguy
12-18-2004, 07:47 AM
The Bosselli injury was a gamble. We have gambled a lot on injured personnel recovering and it hasn't happened as well as we would like.
You're right about the Bosselli selection in the X draft, there was a gamble because of his injury but I don't think we were as confidant as we let on at
the time we took him that he would eventually play for us. But we were heavily hedged in that transaction with the Jags because we got Payne & Walker in the package with Bosselli. Taking Hollings with a second round pick
was a huge gamble by Cass because he was such an unknown quantity as
a running back - a converted DB who played in only 4 college games. The
injury boosted the risk factor.
I dunno, the wife & I are planning on a Vegas trip next month and I just know we're gonna walk into one of those casinos on the strip and there's gonna be this huge crowd gathered around a **** table and there will be Cass - rolling the dice, betting big, and the crowd roaring.

infantrycak
12-18-2004, 08:19 AM
I think there are real questions as to how effective Payne and Walker will be from here on out. You think they will be fully recovered and I do not. We suffered more injuries than any one else last year and that's a fact.

First off, your post that I responded to was about the defense so I was not talking about injuries such as Joppru, Boselli, Hollings, Carr, etc. On defense, my point is injuries last year, even those that still hurt this year don't necessarily mean they will be ongoing problems next year and they don't support your statement that it will take 2+ more years for the D to come together. It seems you want to treat any injured player as permanently lost/ineffective. Virtually every player in the NFL has been injured at some point. Payne has consistantly improved as the year has gone on and is getting much closer to his old form (stats aren't everything, but he will be near or possibly above his tackle/sack numbers from 2002). There has not been any indication of reinjury and with his work ethic IMO it is more likely than not he will fully recover. Other than pessimism what makes you think Payne will not recover? Walker has been a disappointment this year, but what evidence do you have that it is due to injury rather than playing with a notable lack of the fire he had in 2002? Ramon Walker will also be bringing his depth and outstanding special teams play back next year. JMO, but the playing time for the young guys that play substantial roles in the Texans D--Babin, Peek, Robinson, Faggins, Earl--will outweigh the lingering effects of 2003 injuries in 2005.

nunusguy
12-18-2004, 10:07 AM
Payne has consistantly improved as the year has gone on and is getting much closer to his old form (stats aren't everything, but he will be near or possibly above his tackle/sack numbers from 2002). There has not been any indication of reinjury and with his work ethic IMO it is more likely than not he will fully recover.
Yup, he's lookin' good. Always felt he was more valuable to us than Walker.
Plus he's still < 30. He is in his contract year I believe. Has anybody heard anything on getting him resigned ?

Vinny
12-18-2004, 11:35 AM
Gary Walker has always been one of my favorite Texans. I'm hoping he rebounds next year. Two-gap linemen tend to stick around and play in their older years. Perhaps his injury has a bit of a carry over effect.

wags
12-19-2004, 07:59 PM
I wonder if Seth Wand or Marcus Spears will start at LT against the Jags. Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.

Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks. :slap:

AndreJ
12-19-2004, 08:04 PM
Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks. :slap:

Why did he get hurt again today?

ArlingtonTexan
12-19-2004, 08:07 PM
I wonder if Seth Wand or Marcus Spears will start at LT against the Jags. Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.

Hopefully Wiegert is ok because Washington sucks. :slap:

the game notes said that Zach looks to be out for the year.

Vinny
12-19-2004, 08:09 PM
Spears seemed to play a lot of LT today, mostly third down it seemed.
On the post-game radio show they were calling Wand the Anti-Peek. He was coming out in passing downs.

wags
12-19-2004, 08:10 PM
the game notes said that Zach looks to be out for the year.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOO

:slap:

NoBullTexan
12-19-2004, 08:38 PM
What is wrong with McKinney? Let me count the ways. But really he simply gets beat one-on-one up the gut too much. That is overly simplistic, I know, but it also distills in a few words what is wrong with McKinney.

I don't too often agree so completely with Vinny but I agree pretty much with his post above.

I think they should trash the zone blocking scheme, because it seems to confuse us more than the opposition.

Maybe it is because they get hurt too much, and still try to play. Or it is they haven't played beside one another for long enough, or just what it is, but McKinny and Weigert, over the course of the year, have been the weak points more than anyone else on the O-line. Wand is limited only by his lack of experience. He was more or less thrown to the Lions this year in an effort to force feed him into playing the LT position. It is way too early to get negative on Wand. He needs to look at a ton of film over the off-season with his position coach to show him his mistakes, especially against the Freenys of the world. He will eventually become an asset at the position.

AndreJ
12-19-2004, 08:48 PM
this is still the first year in the new zone blocking scheme and i dont see us getting any worse in the future. I think we will only get better with time. I like how after David Carr threw a fit today, the O-Line pulled together and you didn't see much pressure on him after that.

If we are still having these same problems next year than yes i think we may need to start looking at a new blocking scheme.

Hervoyel
12-19-2004, 09:33 PM
Between Todd Washington, Milford Brown, and Fred Weary I believe they'll be able to find someone to fill in capably for Weigert. Sure it's not as good as having Weigert in there but it should get us through the last two games.

On Wand I'm thinking that this is good for him. He's still ahead of where I thought he'd be. Like a lot of people I was surprised he was ready to start this year and apparently he's not completely ready to be starting or he wouldn't be coming out on passing downs now. He has the physical tools to be a very good LT. He's obviously a hard worker and working hard at it. If he has someone replacing him on passing downs that's going to challenge him to come back and put a stop to it so I expect Wand to work twice as hard as before. He just started this thing with a long way to go but I'm impressed with how hard he's worked if not always the way things have turned out.

Texanman
12-27-2004, 02:44 PM
Wondering what yall thought about next years OL. We have the worst center in the league. He spends entire games on the ground. Its embarrassing. Does he even workout? Do you think we will do anything to address the issue. Like move Wiegert to center, and leave Brown at RG. I didnt know if the Texans org. felt like they should keep him because hes a local guy/media guy. Any thoughts?

OzzO
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Ah, it's not all on Steve - wasn't he a guard before he joined up with the Texans? Depends if we can find a center to replace. If so - then it'll depends on how fast he can be put into the speed of the NFL and learn the system.

If all goes well, then McKinney will start or provide depth at guard (depending on who wants the job more) as well as be depth for center.... my 2 cents.

Marcus
12-27-2004, 03:01 PM
Well, if Casserly wanted to draft a center in the 2nd round, like Vince Carter or Donovan Raiola, I wouldn't complain.

Either one of them would be an instant upgrade over McKinney IMHO.