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WWJD
12-09-2004, 12:50 PM
I was listening to Dan P. yesterday on 610 and he had some interesting comments about David Carr. He says David has regressed and he is side-arming the ball this year. He said that would never work in the NFL because of the huge height of the D lineman, that you have to arch the ball to the receivers.

He didn't seem impressed with the O line work this year and the most telling comment he made to me was about coaches. He said he had so many coaches during his NFL days that it would not surprise him if the Texans made some changes in their coaching staff.

Any opinions?

wags
12-09-2004, 12:56 PM
Carr's throwing motion does look different this year. He's always had a terrible motion but this year it looks different. I have noticed on some of his throws this year it actually looks like he is pushing the ball to his receiver. How about that underthrow to Johnson last week? :bag: That was middle school caliber.

gwallaia
12-09-2004, 12:57 PM
I've noticed David's sidearm delivery as well. Time to break out the ladder again.

Ibar_Harry
12-09-2004, 01:02 PM
Or is his shoulder injured and nothing is being said?

Ibar_Harry
12-09-2004, 01:06 PM
Sounds like some knowledgeable people are also beginning to talk about the coaching staff, and in particular, the O-line change. I've stated many times the blocking scheme change, which I to bought into, is a major reason for the offensive problems we are seeing this year. I would also add where is Brown, Washington, and others in this revamp year. I think we're not playing Washington because the coaches feel he doesn't fit into the new scheme. That's probably true, but neither does McKinney..........

WWJD
12-09-2004, 01:10 PM
Or is his shoulder injured and nothing is being said?


Dan questioned the injury too and wondered if perhaps it has had an effect on David's delivery this year. I will make a mental note to watch David throwing this week because to be honest I had not noticed the sidearm motion much myself. I do know sometimes he underthrows the receivers while it seemed last year he was hitting them in stride.

I think perhaps he is feeling the heat a bit more right now in this string of bad games and is just pressing too hard.

TheOgre
12-09-2004, 01:32 PM
Accuracy is the number 1 issue with sidearm throwers. Kosar was a sidearmed thrower and he did fine though.

DreamCatcher
12-09-2004, 01:44 PM
Could be an injury or just the pressure getting to him but the arm motion doesn,t look the best.Then again his protection from the O has not been the best.

infantrycak
12-09-2004, 01:52 PM
I think we're not playing Washington because the coaches feel he doesn't fit into the new scheme.

The coaches aren't playing Washington this year because he looked like a turnstyle last year in pass protection. Having said that, IMO he looked better when he subbed in at center last year and I wouldn't mind seeing that experiment again although I assume that he practices there and the coaches don't see it as an improvement over McKinney.

Funny that the sidearm thing is a problem for some folks--plenty of people were high on Rivers and his sidearm is much more exagerated.

WWJD
12-09-2004, 02:14 PM
It's not a problem for me Infantry; I hadn't even noticed David had a sidearm throwing motion so so much for my power of observation.

I DID find it interesting that Pastorini thought it was a regressive year for David and he said he has regressed "back to" the sidearm motion. He even made a comment that somebody needed to pull out a tape from last year of David and one from this year and see if he wasn't right.

I guess in NFL circles it's not something coaches want a QB to do.

wags
12-09-2004, 02:52 PM
Well our QB coach is in his first year as QB coach, ever. On the other end of the spectrum you have Indy's QB coach. He has been there three years and before that he was QB coach for the Bucs in 2001. He also was a QB and receiver coach in college, working with the likes of Kerry Collins.

axman40
12-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Did Dan the Man say anything about Weed 2 being filmed?
:jk:

WWJD
12-09-2004, 04:31 PM
No! But he did say he was playing golf with Nickelback! :bguitar:

MarleyFan
12-09-2004, 07:43 PM
Does Dan Pastorini have his own radio show in H-town, or was he just being interviewed?

WWJD
12-09-2004, 08:02 PM
Does Dan Pastorini have his own radio show in H-town, or was he just being interviewed?


He will be doing a radio show with Marc Vandemeer and Rich Lord on Wednesdays on 610 AM. I say Wednesday because that is the day I heard him on..I don't know that they do it on Wednesday every week but Dan is a cool guy; he's very honest and I found the interview/questioning very informative.

I also think he does a TV show with Marc Vandemeer on Channel 13..ABC. I am not sure of the day. Perhaps somebody else knows that but I believe it's done with an audience at the Aquarium downtown so that might be something Texan fans might like to attend.

aj.
12-09-2004, 08:35 PM
Pastorini has been doing a weekly radio hour with Vandermeer since the start of the season. It was on Weds. mornings but it has moved to the afternoons with the programming changes on 610.

The Quarterbacks TV show is filmed on Weds. nights at 7 pm at the downtown Aquarium. Some of our board members regularly attend. It is broadcast late Friday nights ~ 11:00 pm.

WWJD
12-09-2004, 08:41 PM
Sorry I thought the QB show was on Channel 13!

fresno8
12-10-2004, 12:37 AM
He was throwing well earlier in the year. He's a tough guy, he has to be hurt and it's affecting his motion. I'm a huge Carr fan and have watched him since his first start at Fresno State. The arm strength isn't there right now. Gotta be hurt, because he has a rocket even when he's throwing side armed and it's just not there right now, his ball is floating and sailing. Earlier in the year he'd put the ball where ever he wanted.

bckey
12-10-2004, 12:39 AM
He does The Quarterbacks on Channel 11 with Gifford Neilson. Vandemeer has a small part on the prgram. Dan is cool, as I was growing up he was my favorite QB. Anyone remember the run in with Dale Robertson of the then Houston Post? :heh:


I do. Pastorini was one of my favorite qbs also. Blue collar and tough.

pittbull
12-10-2004, 08:01 AM
Carr will be just fine!!!

profan
12-10-2004, 12:36 PM
I will watch carrs throwing motion this sunday. Why was this not addressed when we were winning and he was putting up good numbers? If carr put's up manning like numbers will the issue of his throwing motion come up? I don't think so.

WWJD
12-10-2004, 01:38 PM
I will watch carrs throwing motion this sunday. Why was this not addressed when we were winning and he was putting up good numbers? If carr put's up manning like numbers will the issue of his throwing motion come up? I don't think so.


That's just it...he's not putting up Manning's numbers. I have not paid any attention to his throwing motion. But when a former pro QB of some local esteem says something is wrong it kind of makes me wonder. I'll check it out Sunday and see too. I don't really care how he throws but Dan the Man says sidewinders don't work out too well in the NFL as a general rule of thumb particularly now since the D lineman are so tall and big. We'll see. :hmmm:

Vinny
12-10-2004, 01:40 PM
It's hard to put air under a deep ball when you chunk it sidearm. The better deep ball throwers give the ball good arc and let the WR run under it. Carr's linear deep passes have little margin for error.

edo783
12-10-2004, 02:41 PM
A couple of weeks ago I mentioned that he was dropping his motion and now it seems his arm strength is lower. The first 4-5 games he was coming over the top and he was on target and throwing a nice arcing deep ball. His QB rating was over 100 and his completions were above 70%. Doing very well and rated at ~#4 in the league. Now for the last 4-5 games he is throwing side arm, passes are floating high and the deep ball isn't very deep and velocity seems WAY down. His QB rating has come down into the low 80s and completions have been just barely above 50% in the last 4-5 games. I postulated at that time he might have re-injured the shoulder. The Texans have a history of being less than forth coming about player injuries. Naturally the o-line and running game haven't been stellar during that time either so hard to say what is actually going on.

aj.
12-10-2004, 03:15 PM
It's hard to put air under a deep ball when you chunk it sidearm. The better deep ball throwers give the ball good arc and let the WR run under it. Carr's linear deep passes have little margin for error.Not sure what you're looking at. Carr throws a deep ball with a lot of arc. He throws more long 'line drives' now that he's not doing any seven step drops and he's almost always on the run when he's throwing.

Vinny
12-10-2004, 03:17 PM
Pastorini mentioned that side arm throwers have a hard time getting air under the ball and I was in agreement. Carr gets the ball down the field as well as anyone but I don't think he throws a great deep ball. That's pretty much what I am looking at.

mike moffat
12-11-2004, 01:55 AM
Third Eye...I do remember the run in that Dan had with Robertson. I thought that it was great! He deserved exactly what he got! :loser
You know it was kind of funny then. Either you liked Pastorini,or you didn't. He never had fair weather fans. I for one was a dye in the wool Pastorini fan.
I didn't care for his trouble that he got into after the nfl. The drag boat accident. But, the man could throw a football. I remember going to a game with the 49ers. Dan threw a ball that looked like it went 70 yards. If I remember right, the Oilers won that one.

Ibar_Harry
12-11-2004, 04:07 AM
Try Fresno State playing a team from Santa Clara with an Unkown young QB by the name of .......... Can you guess? That's how far I go back........ Of course in High School I watched Fresno State play Montana State and the head coach was Jim Sweeny. He had just found a young socker player and decided to turn him into a field goal kicker. The guys name was Jaun Stenarrud. Its funny how small school players turn into something. I remember Jaun, because we held them at our 30 and he was blasting 50 yarders through the uprights. The FSU coaches were pulling their hair out.

Tedc
12-11-2004, 05:58 AM
What I see is David throwing sidearm when trying to get the ball to his running backs and tight ends. Sometimes he is working too fast. If you look at the tapes from last game he appears to be throwing side arm whem he thew it to Johnson behind the line of scrimmage. Had he made a good throw, we would have had a good play.

It normally takes four to five years in the league for a QB to reach his potential and I feel David is well on his way.

Speedy
12-11-2004, 09:40 AM
Dan threw a ball that looked like it went 70 yards. If I remember right, the Oilers won that one.Dante said on the radio a few weeks ago, that he was in some QB throwing competition years ago, and won it throwing the football 86 yards. :bowdown:

axman40
12-11-2004, 09:59 AM
My favorite Dante moment was in Buffalo, 2 defenders was bringing Dan down and some how he throws the ball 50+ to Ken Burroughs for a TD! I do not recall if the Oilers won but I will remember that play always!
:banana:

WWJD
12-11-2004, 10:14 AM
I always thought Pastorini was a fun player to watch and he was very tough too. He played thru a lot of injuries.

edo783
12-11-2004, 12:50 PM
Seeing as how Dan metioned something wrong with David, Here is a report that was on Sportingnews.com:

QB David Carr, Texans. Carr should go into the shop. He was a wreck against the Jets last week with 157 yards passing, a pair of picks and a fumble. He has neck soreness going into this game, and we hate his matchup against the Colts. Indy is getting a lot of interceptions, and its pass rush is blindingly quick. Carr will have plenty of chances to rack up points because the Colts will go off (again), but he isn't playing well and is likely to make too many mistakes.

First time I have seen anything indicating a neck sorness issue. Anyone seen it elswhere?

MIGHTYTEX
12-11-2004, 02:42 PM
I've takin notice that carr has gone to the 3/4 to sidearm through instead off the normal over the head throw. The first game I noticed it was against GB. I can't recall if he came off a rough game the week before and was sore or injuried. However in Carr's defense he has thrown sidearm for the most of his career as QB. If there's a QB that can become a great QB that throws sidearm its gonna be Carr.

aj.
12-11-2004, 04:36 PM
First time I have seen anything indicating a neck sorness issue. Anyone seen it elswhere? Carr hurt his neck/upper back when he took a shot to the side of the head in the Jets game. It was the play where he almost got sacked but completed the pass to AJ. He was down for several minutes but walked off the field -- Banks came in for one play. Carr said on Monday morning that he was pretty sore but not bad enough to sit out. His hair was not affected.

wiley2002
12-11-2004, 04:46 PM
If Carr sticks to sidearm passes, all I can do is hope they work. Int's will be an issue but we'll see what he can do with his golden arm.

aj.
12-11-2004, 07:31 PM
He could throw it underhand like the little hottie in Dodge Ball and I wouldn't care as long as the results were there. Carr is 8th in the NFL in yards per attempt, 9th in passing yards, and 13th in completion percentage. He obviously needs to continue to improve in several areas but what QB doesn't? It could be a helluva lot worse. You'll never catch me wearing #8 but he has shown improvement every year and that's what it's all about.

big sarge
12-12-2004, 12:33 AM
I think the heat is getting to him and him being the focal point of the Texans. As far as the O line goes, they do need some work, but davis needs to regain his confidence and not hesitate so much. When davis is running Carr is hot .

block4carrmore
01-09-2005, 05:18 PM
I was listening to Dan P. yesterday on 610 and he had some interesting comments about David Carr. He says David has regressed and he is side-arming the ball this year. He said that would never work in the NFL because of the huge height of the D lineman, that you have to arch the ball to the receivers.

He didn't seem impressed with the O line work this year and the most telling comment he made to me was about coaches. He said he had so many coaches during his NFL days that it would not surprise him if the Texans made some changes in their coaching staff.

Any opinions? Dan Pastorini couldn't hit the side of a barn.

OzzO
01-10-2005, 12:30 PM
As long as he gets the time to get the ball to the reciever, he can throw underhand between his legs for all that matters to me.

JustBonee
01-10-2005, 12:33 PM
As long as he gets the time to get the ball to the reciever, he can throw underhand between his legs for all that matters to me.

:rofl: ..sorry, just had a strange visual of that.

WWJD
01-10-2005, 12:33 PM
Dan Pastorini couldn't hit the side of a barn.


Dan was a very good NFL QB for some years. He makes some really good points on his 610 show.

nunusguy
01-10-2005, 01:08 PM
Did you know? the most yds DAN has ever thrown for was 2,400 yds, most TDs 16
I don't think they had 16 game seasons back then. Besides they did run the
ball quite a bit - they had a descent RB, guy name E.Campbell.

WWJD
01-10-2005, 01:10 PM
Did you know? the most yds DAN has ever thrown for was 2,400 yds, most TDs 16, best comp.56%. DAVID 3,500 yds. 16TDs 61%comp. Lets not forget how many more times David was sacked. So i dont think Dan should be telling David how to throw the football. :BananaWav

Dan was asked what he would change about Carr and he answered honestly; he made a point to say it was constructive criticism and that he thinks with some coaching he can improve. I'd much rather he be honest. He said he's on target as far as developing and to me his points are valid. I'd rather hear what he has to say because he's "been there and done that".

And Pastorini was mauled during his years with the Oilers. In fact I heard them kidding him that the flak jacket was invented for him in particular. So it wasn't an easy ride for him either.

Vinny
01-10-2005, 01:56 PM
And Pastorini was mauled during his years with the Oilers. In fact I heard them kidding him that the flak jacket was invented for him in particular. So it wasn't an easy ride for him either.It was made for him so he could protect his ribs for the shots he was taking over and over. It was career threatening punishment he was absorbing and I remember them showing off this jacket with a baseball bat on the news when it was first made.

Dan was a classic 70's style QB. Big arm and lots of deep, deep downfield passing. Look up the stats for Joe Namath if you want some reference to passing yardage totals in relation to Dan's. Namath averaged 2125 yards per year in his career.

Pastorini was beat to death behind some miserable lines and he never produced big time stats but he had a fantastic deep ball, and was a fantastic leader. Pastorini knows what he is talking about. You don't have to play the position like Johnny Unitas in order to have an opinion on quarterbacking.

infantrycak
01-10-2005, 02:04 PM
I don't think they had 16 game seasons back then. Besides they did run the
ball quite a bit - they had a descent RB, guy name E.Campbell.

The first seven of Dan's years in the league were 14 game seasons, after that it was 16 games including the 2400 yd season.

I heard somewhere that the Texans run a lot too. Joke--couldn't resist. This is like trying to compare apples and oranges though.

Hervoyel
01-10-2005, 08:05 PM
Dan was a classic 70's style QB. Big arm and lots of deep, deep downfield passing. Look up the stats for Joe Namath if you want some reference to passing yardage totals in relation to Dan's. Namath averaged 2125 yards per year in his career.

It was a completely different era and I think that's lost on a lot of fans these days. The passing game was there of course but it was nowhere near as complex as it is today and no team in my admittedly fuddled memory relied on the pass to the extent that they do today with maybe the exception of Dan Fouts and the San Diego Chargers.

Pastorini was beat to death behind some miserable lines and he never produced big time stats but he had a fantastic deep ball, and was a fantastic leader. Pastorini knows what he is talking about. You don't have to play the position like Johnny Unitas in order to have an opinion on quarterbacking.

Dan's arm and that "fantastic deep ball" were the reason Al Davis traded for him if I remember correctly. The Raiders loved the bomb back in those days and Stabler wasn't able to do that anymore (not that he was ever the threat to go deep that Pastorini was). Pastorini went to the Raiders and was the starter before going down with a broken leg. Jim Plunkett stepped in and the rest was history. I've often wondered what would have happened that year if Pastorini hadn't been injured early. Would the Raiders have still gone to the Super Bowl? Would Pastorini have gotten a ring? Would Dan Pastorini had the kind of resurgence that Plunkett had late in his career?

We'll never know but I agree with you Vinny on one thing. Dan Pastorini can talk about the QB position all he wants. He earned it.

aj.
01-10-2005, 08:19 PM
I don't think they had 16 game seasons back then. Besides they did run the
ball quite a bit - they had a descent RB, guy name E.Campbell.Pastorini was already in his 8th season when Earl joined the team in '78. He got the holy **** beat out of him in his early years - long before the Oilers were good. Dante played with Earl for only two seasons.

BornOrange
01-10-2005, 08:34 PM
And as was mentioned in a Chronicle article last week, Pastorini requested to be traded because of the way he was treated by Houston fans. In particular lying on the field and hearing cheers. I think that was the injury the flak jacket was invented for.
The article (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/fb/texans/2981659)

It's a good thing the Texans don't have a backup QB as popular as Giff Nielson or Cody Carlson....

ComstockLode
01-10-2005, 09:15 PM
Did you know? the most yds DAN has ever thrown for was 2,400 yds, most TDs 16, best comp.56%. DAVID 3,500 yds. 16TDs 61%comp. Lets not forget how many more times David was sacked. So i dont think Dan should be telling David how to throw the football. :BananaWav

Last time I checked, the best coaches in any sport, were never very successful themselves. Just because someone wasnt the greatest QB, doesnt mean his opinion on throwing mechanics is worthless because Carr has played better earlier in his career...

Honoring Earl 34
01-10-2005, 09:34 PM
:howdy: He was a victim of a bad club.Until they hired Sid Gillman the Oilers stunk.Talk about the Texans draft check out the early Oilers.The gem they did have was arguably the greatest safety of all time.But he was traded to the Redskins,thank God for the Texans.Back to Dante, Mr.Carr will never face the likes of the 70's Steelers.That in itself gives Pastorini a right to an opinion.

powda
01-10-2005, 10:19 PM
Love Carr, but he is HOLDING THE BALL TOOOOO LONG!!! Sling that ball, try to put it to the open man or a place where only a Texan WR can cath it..... and live with the results. I am willing to admit that >30% of those sacks were Carr's fault.

when did our passing game revolve around a 3 step drop? it never has and a lot of the routes our recievers run take time to develop. aside from the quick hitch and the 1 - 3 slant routes we throw per game everything thrown to a reciever takes time...time our line hasnt provided.

keyfro
01-10-2005, 10:43 PM
the funny thing about this has been even though he has a low throwing position not many of his balls get batted down by d-lineman...mainly because he moves out of the pocket left and right...i thinik once we get stronger in the o-line department we might get to see how carr's throwing motion really will affect the game...but the main point is this...yeah his throwing motion is horrible...sometimes it looks like he's shot putting the ball to the recievers but what are we gonna do...bench him and draft another QB...i don't think so...get over it...he's throwing motion isn't the reason this team is losing more games than winning...both lines are

disaacks3
01-10-2005, 11:07 PM
WE HAVE TO FIND SOMETHING TO RAG ON HIM ABOUT, SO LETS TALK ABOUT HIS THROWING MOTION! idonno: Yep, griping about the THROWING MOTION of your 1st-player-taken QB is really off-base for a football forum... :um:

I don't know anyone who doesn't think he's a "great guy", but he's still got some mechanical issues to fix. While that's no big shock for a 3rd-year QB, it's not something to be ignored either.

ledzeppelin229
01-11-2005, 12:42 AM
I can remember a few of Carr's passes that have been batted up and then intercepted. While this happens to many QBs, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to prevent it. Never know when it might cost us a game that might cost us a chance at the playoffs one day. If players out of college already knew everything there is to know about the NFL, there wouldn't be any point of draft speculation. Anyone that thinks Carr is perfect and doesn't need to improve in any facet is just ignorant. This isn't a knock on Carr but a clear reality for just about every player in the league, veteran or rookie.

powda
01-11-2005, 06:01 AM
Carr should be smart enought to 1-2-3 Release (even if nobody was open)..

Interception = living with it

so first you want carr to rewrite the offense? secondly, you want carr to dump off the ball no matter what? (huh?) and thirdly, despite being critical of carr for what you call holding on to the ball to long, a bad throwing motion, etc...you wont be critical of carr if he throws more interceptions?

righhhhhtttttt.

and last time i checked a sack (5-10 yard loss) vs. an interception (change of possesion) favors the offense.

sack=living with it

NeViKaN
01-11-2005, 10:11 AM
Seems to me that he throws better with alittle side arm.

Honoring Earl 34
01-11-2005, 02:31 PM
I don't want my preacher to be my QB if he can't throw.Carr was picked #1 so he would be groomed along the way.Is anyone 75% sure Carrs the real deal.I was 80% after his first year. :whew

blockhead83
01-11-2005, 03:02 PM
I agree, Carr is not performing like Peyton Manning. Wait....nobody is performing like Peyton Manning except....Peyton Manning. It's a little tough on Carr to compare him to a Hall of Fame Quarterback who just broke the single season record for touchdowns (and has a great running game + pass protection!). Carr was showing great progress early in the season when he had time to throw. When the pass protection began to fail later in the season, so did his numbers. He's not good enough at this point to overcome poor blocking, but when he gets good protection he is good enough to make things happen, IMO.

infantrycak
01-11-2005, 03:21 PM
Manning + see blitz =1-2-3 Ball out
Carr + see blitz = 1-2-3 Run away to sidelines

More like:

Manning + see blitz, thinks whoohoo I can (a) audible to a 10-15 yd pass in single coverage knowing my line will pick up the blitz, (b) audible to a deep pass in single coverage knowing my line will pick up the blitz or (c) audible to let Edge gash them since they are blitzing--nah, my OL has held up the last 150 plays, I am going with (a) or (b).

Carr + see blitz, thinks damn my OL has let the last 150 of these guys through I can (a) see if they pull off a fluke and give me some protection and if they don't run screaming for my life trying to make something happen or (b) audible to DD--screw it this is why I was picked number one and everyone on the MB complains everytime I audible to a running play, sigh, let's try it again--1 step, 2 steps, oh crud here they come again...thump, roll, pfft, spit grass out.

NeViKaN
01-11-2005, 04:22 PM
Pastorini mentioned that side arm throwers have a hard time getting air under the ball and I was in agreement. Carr gets the ball down the field as well as anyone but I don't think he throws a great deep ball. That's pretty much what I am looking at.

Did you see the third play of the Titan game? The ball dropped out of the sky. :goodbad:

Vinny
01-11-2005, 04:28 PM
I wasn't refering to one pass or a few passes. Just as a general rule of thumb sidearm throwers do not get much air under the ball. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. I know DC has multiple arm angles, but he seems to keep throwing the ball from the side a bit too often.

Hit Man
01-16-2005, 09:47 AM
Pastorini is a good analyst, but he wasn't half the quarterback that Carr is.... Go Sit in the Corner, Pastorini and shut-up! :loser

Honoring Earl 34
01-16-2005, 01:18 PM
Dante got them to the AFC championship game.Even with Earl thats something. :banana:

mike moffat
01-16-2005, 11:29 PM
:howdy: He was a victim of a bad club.Until they hired Sid Gillman the Oilers stunk.Talk about the Texans draft check out the early Oilers.The gem they did have was arguably the greatest safety of all time.But he was traded to the Redskins,thank God for the Texans.Back to Dante, Mr.Carr will never face the likes of the 70's Steelers.That in itself gives Pastorini a right to an opinion.
The Pastorini legacy continues.....People either loved him or hated him. Personally, I liked him. I wasn't too impressed with him after he left football. But I think that he was a good QB. I give him credit for intestinal fortitude. He spent alot of time looking at the ceiling of the Astrodome. He was like timex. He took a licking and kept on ticking. :boxing: