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bckey
04-12-2008, 12:46 AM
Here it is. He has us passing on Chris Williams. I just don't see it. Of course he will tweak it as the draft gets closer.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/041208dnspomockdraft.532bcdf5.html

kastofsna
04-12-2008, 12:50 AM
can't really argue with any of the picks

beerlover
04-12-2008, 01:52 AM
This is the first of three Rick Gosselin mock drafts. It is based on a draft board compiled through discussions with NFL talent evaluators. This mock draft primarily adopts the best-player-available philosophy. Next weekend's

everything is right here.

if I may be so bold "compiled through discussions with NFL talent evaluators" could these be former GM's like our own Charlie Casserly :bunpan:

nunusguy
04-13-2008, 10:33 AM
"18. Houston Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
Comment: Help for the NFL's 25th-ranked pass defense
19. Philadelphia Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
Comment: Heir apparent to William Thomas at left tackle"
*************************************************
Who really belives this secenario will play out if Williams is on the board for
us ? The obvious pick for the Texans here would be Williams, but historically Denver does not draft running backs or OLineman in high rounds but they do for corners. I dunno, but maybe Gosselin thinks Denver South will behave accordingly ?

edo783
04-13-2008, 10:42 AM
I very much doubt that we pass on Williams unless Gibbs just doesn't want him for what ever reason.

Errant Hothy
04-13-2008, 11:03 AM
As beerlover said. Gosselin's first mock is purly BPA, it's better to think of it as the top 31 players in the draft then a true mock.

ChampionTexan
04-13-2008, 11:27 AM
I very much doubt that we pass on Williams unless Gibbs just doesn't want him for what ever reason.

Gosselin's good - or at least better than most (IMO), and I pay more attention to it than anything Kiper or McShay spew out. It is however far from perfect - last year his final mock draft had the Texans taking Darelle Revis, and Amobi dropping into the early 20's. But I'll give him credit for spending his time and using his contacts to compile football information and not to land movie roles.

Two similarities between this mock and LZ's latest one that I find interesting are that DRC goes at #16 (Gosselin), and #18 (LZ), lower than most mocks I've seen lately, and that Jonathan Stewart goes before the Texans pick in both mocks (#12 in Gosslin's and #13 in LZ's).

And yes, I think if it comes down to Williams or Jenkins, they take Williams in a heartbeat.

Maddict5
04-13-2008, 12:23 PM
"18. Houston Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
Comment: Help for the NFL's 25th-ranked pass defense
19. Philadelphia Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
Comment: Heir apparent to William Thomas at left tackle"
*************************************************
Who really belives this secenario will play out if Williams is on the board for
us ? The obvious pick for the Texans here would be Williams, but historically Denver does not draft running backs or OLineman in high rounds but they do for corners. I dunno, but maybe Gosselin thinks Denver South will behave accordingly ?

how'd you figure?

denver has taken portis and bell in the 2nd/3rd rd (not to mention we tried to take deangelo williams in the 1st in '06).. they took george foster in the first too

they've take cb's foxworth, paymah and williams in the 3rd rds.. they're the only cb's i can remember drafting anyway high.. who am i missing?

BSofA04
04-13-2008, 12:46 PM
Gibbs is only going to be here for a few years, he doesn't have the convinience of a franchise LT. Knowing this, I'm not sure how much his opinion would be taken into consideration for the long term plan of the Houston Texans. See my point?

ChampionTexan
04-13-2008, 01:04 PM
Gibbs is only going to be here for a few years, he doesn't have the convinience of a franchise LT. Knowing this, I'm not sure how much his opinion would be taken into consideration for the long term plan of the Houston Texans. See my point?

Actually, no.

I can't tell whether you're thinking Gibbs would or wouldn't want a 1st Rd. OLT. In terms of his opinion being taken into consideration, I agree that Gibbs is likely a 2-3 year presence with the Texans, but keep in mind that Kubiak is going to be around for a long time (or at least is approaching things as if that's the case), and didn't bring Gibbs in to run the ZBS for 2-3 years and then switch to something else when Gibbs leaves. They've got Gibbs giving input on O-Linemen, and Rhodes giving input on D-backs, and I believe they'll be listening intently to both.

BSofA04
04-13-2008, 01:18 PM
Actually, no.

I can't tell whether you're thinking Gibbs would or wouldn't want a 1st Rd. OLT. In terms of his opinion being taken into consideration, I agree that Gibbs is likely a 2-3 year presence with the Texans, but keep in mind that Kubiak is going to be around for a long time (or at least is approaching things as if that's the case), and didn't bring Gibbs in to run the ZBS for 2-3 years and then switch to something else when Gibbs leaves. They've got Gibbs giving input on O-Linemen, and Rhodes giving input on D-backs, and I believe they'll be listening intently to both.

I don't think Gibbs will want to draft a o-lineman in the first. I absolutly agree that his input will be a foundation for this franchise long after he's gone, but I also think that Smithiack will have to go with their gut instinct. I have every reason to believe that we'll go with a franchise LT if one is still available even if our Assistant Head Coach disagrees. Again, my reason for this is that we have no franchise LT....a luxury Gibbs was always afforded.

nunusguy
04-13-2008, 01:23 PM
how'd you figure?

denver has taken portis and bell in the 2nd/3rd rd (not to mention we tried to take deangelo williams in the 1st in '06).. they took george foster in the first too

they've take cb's foxworth, paymah and williams in the 3rd rds.. they're the only cb's i can remember drafting anyway high.. who am i missing?
Since 2000 Denvers top pick has been a CB 3 times, while in the same period their combined total for OLineman & running backs as their top pick is 1.

Lucky
04-13-2008, 01:52 PM
Since 2000 Denvers top pick has been a CB 3 times, while in the same period their combined total for OLineman & running backs as their top pick is 1.
But I wonder if the fact that both of those corners in the 1st round (O'Neal & Middlebrooks) ended up busts for the Broncos would give Smith & Kubiak qualms. Remember, they weren't the ones pulling the trigger on those picks.

rollinstone18
04-13-2008, 02:06 PM
I think we go Williams in that situation too. Both are good players who meet a need. But Jenkins has some character concerns. Williams doesn't.

ChampionTexan
04-13-2008, 02:13 PM
But I wonder if the fact that both of those corners in the 1st round (O'Neal & Middlebrooks) ended up busts for the Broncos would give Smith & Kubiak qualms. Remember, they weren't the ones pulling the trigger on those picks.

Plus, there's many who believe the Portis for Champ Bailey trade was simply Denver saying that they were good at drafting RB's, and not so good at drafting CB's.

Lucky
04-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Plus, there's many who believe the Portis for Champ Bailey trade was simply Denver saying that they were good at drafting RB's, and not so good at drafting CB's.
Or that they were willing to pay top dollar for a CB, but not a RB.

Some point to the Denver model and say Smith & Kubiak will/won't do that. They could just as easily look back at what the Broncos have done and say "We shouldn't have done that." Not everything Denver did turned to gold, and they should have learned from those mistakes.

steelbtexan
04-13-2008, 05:19 PM
I like DRC but if Gibbs says he wants Williams he gets Williams.

If Williams & DRC are there @ 18 you've got to take Williams. It's one kidney vs two. With this said I think DRC is one of five special players in this draft.

Blake
04-13-2008, 10:18 PM
I find it comical to think that the Texans would pass on a potential franchise LEFT TACKLE for a cornerback.

Even if Spencer was coming back 100% in the offseason, this franchise has needed a true LT to keep their QB clean. And just like QB, whats better than having one good starting left tackle? Two good starting left tackles.

Cornerback is a need. We have Bennett, Reeves, Faggins along with some backup role players. Also Robinson should be back 1/2 way.

I guess it all depends on what you value higher. CB or LT.

IMO when you spend $$$ on a QB like Shaub, and a LT can make your RB's better, and your WR get more time to get open its a no brainer.

I know that better corners mean the Dline has more time to get to the QB, but I also feel that with an excellent front 7 you just need the corners to cover long enough.

I also feel that Phillips would be a good choice. Im not a big fan of our safties. Besides Demps they all seem so ordinary.

To recap.

Chris Williams
Kenny Phillips
Cornerback - Except Talib.

p.s. Very funny about John Mc using his contacts to get roles in movies... I cant stand that guy.

Errant Hothy
04-14-2008, 09:21 AM
I find it comical to think that the Texans would pass on a potential franchise LEFT TACKLE for a cornerback.

Even if Spencer was coming back 100% in the offseason, this franchise has needed a true LT to keep their QB clean. And just like QB, whats better than having one good starting left tackle? Two good starting left tackles.

Cornerback is a need. We have Bennett, Reeves, Faggins along with some backup role players. Also Robinson should be back 1/2 way.

I guess it all depends on what you value higher. CB or LT.

IMO when you spend $$$ on a QB like Shaub, and a LT can make your RB's better, and your WR get more time to get open its a no brainer.

I know that better corners mean the Dline has more time to get to the QB, but I also feel that with an excellent front 7 you just need the corners to cover long enough.

I also feel that Phillips would be a good choice. Im not a big fan of our safties. Besides Demps they all seem so ordinary.

To recap.

Chris Williams
Kenny Phillips
Cornerback - Except Talib.

p.s. Very funny about John Mc using his contacts to get roles in movies... I cant stand that guy.

It would be comical if that was what Goose w2as saying, too bad it's not.

He simply went BPA at each pcik, and is it that much of a stretch that Jenkins might be considered a better player then Williams?

bigbrewster2000
04-14-2008, 09:27 AM
I find it comical to think that the Texans would pass on a potential franchise LEFT TACKLE for a cornerback.

Even if Spencer was coming back 100% in the offseason, this franchise has needed a true LT to keep their QB clean. And just like QB, whats better than having one good starting left tackle? Two good starting left tackles.

Cornerback is a need. We have Bennett, Reeves, Faggins along with some backup role players. Also Robinson should be back 1/2 way.

I guess it all depends on what you value higher. CB or LT.

IMO when you spend $$$ on a QB like Shaub, and a LT can make your RB's better, and your WR get more time to get open its a no brainer.

I know that better corners mean the Dline has more time to get to the QB, but I also feel that with an excellent front 7 you just need the corners to cover long enough.

I also feel that Phillips would be a good choice. Im not a big fan of our safties. Besides Demps they all seem so ordinary.

To recap.

Chris Williams
Kenny Phillips
Cornerback - Except Talib.

p.s. Very funny about John Mc using his contacts to get roles in movies... I cant stand that guy.

Did you say Kenny Phili..brp...ugh sorry I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

ChampionTexan
04-14-2008, 10:15 AM
Did you say Kenny Phili..brp...ugh sorry I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Agreed - there are not many scenario's that would disappoint me, Phillips at #18 would suck.

Porky
04-14-2008, 11:19 AM
I'm with the majority. I'll trust the Texans front office on this choice, but I'll be throwing some things around the room if Williams is there and he isn't the choice. The one exception might be a trade down if they can get good value there. We can get a decent corner in rd 3. You cannot get a Williams that will solve the LT puzzle for a decade in rd 3.

The Pencil Neck
04-14-2008, 12:16 PM
You cannot get a Williams that will solve the LT puzzle for a decade in rd 3.

With Gibbs around, I'm not sure that's a true statement.

I'm hoping that we do get Williams and he is a 2 decade pro-bowler but if Gibbs has his eye on someone (and his eye isn't playing tricks on him), then I'm fine with whatever direction they decide to go.

Ole Miss Texan
04-14-2008, 12:28 PM
After reading about the majority of the LT's in this class, it seems Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, and a converted Branden Albert are the only ones that have a chance to start at LT this upcoming season.

All three are unlikely to be available with our 1st round pick, and Albert may need more time to transition to LT but he is VERY athletic so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If we miss out on one of them in the 1st round, it seems we HAVE to grab a LT in the 3rd round for the best chance. The farther down we get in the draft, the more question marks there will be about a player, understandably.

Some of the guys that sound like the best fit for our team sound like they are raw and in need of grooming/can't start right away. There can always be exceptions (and have been: spencer/winston) but if we miss out on Clady/Williams and even Albert I find it VERY VERY likely that Salaam is our starting LT for all 16 games this coming season, barring injury. That's a fact I'm starting to come to terms with. Even if we grab a guy in the 3rd round, I think it takes longer than we want to get him starting at LT.

rollinstone18
04-14-2008, 01:37 PM
After reading about the majority of the LT's in this class, it seems Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, and a converted Branden Albert are the only ones that have a chance to start at LT this upcoming season.

All three are unlikely to be available with our 1st round pick, and Albert may need more time to transition to LT but he is VERY athletic so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If we miss out on one of them in the 1st round, it seems we HAVE to grab a LT in the 3rd round for the best chance. The farther down we get in the draft, the more question marks there will be about a player, understandably.

Some of the guys that sound like the best fit for our team sound like they are raw and in need of grooming/can't start right away. There can always be exceptions (and have been: spencer/winston) but if we miss out on Clady/Williams and even Albert I find it VERY VERY likely that Salaam is our starting LT for all 16 games this coming season, barring injury. That's a fact I'm starting to come to terms with. Even if we grab a guy in the 3rd round, I think it takes longer than we want to get him starting at LT.

That's a sober dose of reality. I'm not too worried if we miss out on one of the three LTs. So long as we fill a need at another position of need (CB, DE and even RB) with a quality starter, it's an improvement. It's debateable whether LT is our most immediate need.

beerlover
04-14-2008, 01:47 PM
That's a sober dose of reality. I'm not too worried if we miss out on one of the three LTs. So long as we fill a need at another position of need (CB, DE and even RB) with a quality starter, it's an improvement. It's debateable whether LT is our most immediate need.

I agree, maybe LT is not in the cards if so move on & select bpa :)

Ole Miss Texan
04-14-2008, 02:10 PM
I've been thinking players/positions/needs and really like (for the 1st round) Chris Williams,Ryan Clady, Branden Albert as my top choices if they are available. As we get closer to the draft it looks as though they may all be gone. So Salaam as our full time starter next season.

Then I like (Mendenhall should be gone) Keith Rivers who looks to be a really athletic WLB that might be a great fit. He has been projected to go anywhere from NE/NO to after our pick. I think there's a chance he could be available but most likely he could be gone.

As far as Cornerback goes (which I've been a fan of going with in the 1st), do we NEED a 1st rd corner? I thought, right off the bat that Dunta would be gone the entire season. I don't want to rely on him coming back during the season by anymeans but the truth is, he has the heart of a... I don't something good.. the guy is such a fighter, that I'm starting to believe he does make it back. Maybe not quite to full form but I think he's a competitor and could make it back to starter by the end or mid season?? (again big ?) Fred Bennett has looked great but is still so young and inexperienced. And Jacque Reeves who will be starting, but is sounding like he should/will be a really solid 3rd CB to have on the team. So what happens if we take a DRC/Jenkins/Cason in the first round? Dunta I believe eventually makes it back, at least for the following season- we'd have Rookie,Dunta, Bennett and Reeves. Looking at the upcoming season- would our Rookie 1st round CB be THAT much of an improvement and start right away? We all would hope so and it's easy to say yes... but we're probably looking at the 3rd best CB or later- lots of teams have 2ndary issues. DRC might slip but is he ready to make the jump Day 1 into the NFL???? I don't know if they would really make THAT big of an impact before (IF) Dunta returns mid to late season?

Now, I don't think it's bad at all to have that many good Corners on our team, esp. in the AFC (Peyton twice, we'll see Brady in the playoffs consistently:)) So it could be a great thing, but the million dollar question is would be be better served addressing another position of need?

Going on- Jonathan Stewart. As beerlover has been pretty rocksteady on him for a while now, he would make an instant impact easily (turf toe aside). I like the Value of a RB more later on in the draft but Stewart would be a great fit at a need area, and be a better player.

So what if OL/LT (Williams, Clady, Albert), OLB (Rivers), RB (Mendenhall, Stewart) are all gone which could be very very possible? We look at CB (McKelvin, Jenkins likely to be gone. Leaves Cromartie possibly, Talib? not on our team, Cason..reach at #18 by most people...Flowers???) Would the CB to fit our system be available and would he start over Bennett/Reeves RIGHT AWAY? Remember Bennett exceeded expectations but he didn't come on until the last half of the season if I remember correctly (which is when we may get Dunta back).

Do we go for Kenny Phillips (doubtful) or DE Harvey (probably gone too) or Calais Campbell?

As you can tell, the top players at positions of Need for us, I'm thinking can easily be ALL gone. On top of that I think trading down will be very hard to do this year. I am officially in panic mode now :panic: Somebody please calm my fears, quickly.

rollinstone18
04-14-2008, 02:47 PM
I'd like to know why Cason isn't as highly regarded as he once was. Dude is a playmaker and our secondary needs a playmaker. Is his upside any more limited than Flowers' or Jenkins'? Or does he just not fit our scheme?

bah007
04-14-2008, 03:18 PM
I'd like to know why Cason isn't as highly regarded as he once was. Dude is a playmaker and our secondary needs a playmaker. Is his upside any more limited than Flowers' or Jenkins'? Or does he just not fit our scheme?

He isn't an "exciting" player.

He is fast, but does not have elite speed.

He can play the ball, but he is not an INT machine.

Pretty much, he is a solid all-around CB, pretty similar to Leon Hall.

badboy
04-14-2008, 04:12 PM
Gosselin's good - or at least better than most (IMO), and I pay more attention to it than anything Kiper or McShay spew out. It is however far from perfect - last year his final mock draft had the Texans taking Darelle Revis, and Amobi dropping into the early 20's. But I'll give him credit for spending his time and using his contacts to compile football information and not to land movie roles.

Two similarities between this mock and LZ's latest one that I find interesting are that DRC goes at #16 (Gosselin), and #18 (LZ), lower than most mocks I've seen lately, and that Jonathan Stewart goes before the Texans pick in both mocks (#12 in Gosslin's and #13 in LZ's).

And yes, I think if it comes down to Williams or Jenkins, they take Williams in a heartbeat.

Revis going before another Dlineman also. Doubt many thought we'd get an eventual starter in 4th at CB. I am expecting magic from Smithiak in 4th & 5th this year as they have my expectations in the stratosphere.

mussop
04-14-2008, 05:00 PM
[QUOTE=Ole Miss Texan;891178]Chris Williams, Ryan Clady, Branden Albert, Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, DRC, Jonathan Stewart, McKelvin, Harvey


As you can tell, the top players at positions of Need for us, I'm thinking can easily be ALL gone. On top of that I think trading down will be very hard to do this year. I am officially in panic mode now :panic: Somebody please calm my fears, quickly.

These 7 are all locks to go top ten.
1. Darren McFadden RB 6-1, 215 Arkansas (O)
2. Glenn Dorsey DT 6-2, 300 LSU (X)
3. Jake Long OT 6-7, 320 Michigan
4. Chris Long DE 6-4, 285 Virginia
5. Vernon Gholston DE 6-4, 260 Ohio State
6. Matt Ryan QB 6-4, 220 Boston College
7. Sedric Ellis DT 6-2, 295 USC

The next 9 are all players you have listed as players you would like.

8. Jonathan Stewart RB 5-11,235 Oregon (X)
9. Ryan Clady OT 6-5, 320 Boise State
10. Keith Rivers LB 6-3, 220 USC
11. Leodis McKelvin CB 5-11, 190 Troy
12. Rashard Mendenhall RB 5-11,195 Illinois
13. Branden Albert OG 6-6, 335 Virginia
14. Derrick Harvey DE 6-4, 270 Florida
15. D. Rodgers-Cromartie CB 6-1, 185 Tennessee State (X)
16. Mike Jenkins CB 5-11, 200 South Florida

Every year teams reach for players that are projected to go much later. All the players below have been mentioned as possible picks for teams in front of us in the draft. It is not a reach to think that 2 of the players listed below could go before we pick pushing down one of the players you covet.

1. Jeff Otah OT 6-7, 340 Pittsburgh (X)
2. Brian Brohm QB 6-3, 230 Louisville
3. Devin Thomas WR 6-1, 215 Michigan State
4. Phillip Merling DE 6-5, 272 Clemson (X)
5. Jerod Mayo LB 6-1, 235 Tennessee
6. Quentin Groves DE 6-4, 255 Auburn (X)

Also there is an outside chance that one of thes players could get picked ahead of us.

Felix Jones RB 6-0, 207 Arkansas
Limas Sweed WR 6-4, 220 Texas (X)
Kentwan Balmer DT 6-5, 290 North Carolina
James Hardy WR 6-6, 220 Indiana
Gosder Cherilus OT 6-6, 320 Boston College
Aqib Talib DB 6-1, 205 Kansas (O)
Kenny Phillips FS 6-1, 205 Miami
Branden Flowers CB 5-9, 180 Virginia Tech
Calais Campbell DE 6-7, 282 Miami
DeSean Jackson WR 5-11,165 California
Antoine Cason CB 6-0, 182 Arizona
Malcolm Kelly WR 6-4, 220 Oklahoma (X)

Remember with teams like Buffalo, Arizona, Detriot and Minnesota picking in front of us it only takes 2 suprises for us to cash in on a top 16 player, so calm down.

Spled
04-14-2008, 05:48 PM
I was watching one of the ESPN draft shows where their experts were saying that since cornerbacks aren't allowed to put their hands on a receiver anymore, that it's impossible for them to be true shut down players. They were questioning whether any corner should be a 1st round pick. It made me think maybe we should wait till 3rd or 4th for secondary.

Lucky
04-14-2008, 07:06 PM
I was watching one of the ESPN draft shows where their experts were saying that since cornerbacks aren't allowed to put their hands on a receiver anymore...
You can still jam receivers in the 1st 5 yards. And corners that can read a play, make a break on the ball, and come up with a turnover still have value.

Kaiser Toro
04-14-2008, 07:18 PM
You can still jam receivers in the 1st 5 yards. And corners that can read a play, make a break on the ball, and come up with a turnover still have value.

And with no force out rule, the position became more valuable in my opinion.

It will be very interesting to see how secondaries respond tactically and offensive playbooks evolve with this move.

kastofsna
04-14-2008, 07:36 PM
yup, the no force out will change the sideline game for QB's and WR's with the man-to-man play.

besides, any good QB will not throw the ball to a receiver who has a good cover corner right on him, no matter what the rules are.

bah007
04-14-2008, 07:45 PM
And a smart WR won't be jumping in the air to catch a ball near the sideline that he should just reach up & catch with his hands.

It amazes me that in the NFL, there seems to only be a handful of guys that can catch the ball the right way....with their hands, not their body.

Kaiser Toro
04-14-2008, 07:49 PM
And a smart WR won't be jumping in the air to catch a ball near the sideline that he should just reach up & catch with his hands.

It amazes me that in the NFL, there seems to only be a handful of guys that can catch the ball the right way....with their hands, not their body.

Yep, which one would think that hands and route-running skill sets just went up in value for WRs.

kastofsna
04-14-2008, 08:26 PM
and suddenly teams will start looking more in-depth at the quality of receivers coaches out there. one simple rule change can create a big domino effect. probably won't see the positives of it this year though.

threetoedpete
04-15-2008, 01:10 PM
It would be comical if that was what Goose w2as saying, too bad it's not.

He simply went BPA at each pcik, and is it that much of a stretch that Jenkins might be considered a better player then Williams?

Yeah well Jenkins won't get the 48 million dollar, two draft picks, QB detroyed either. Jenkins hits the biggest hole draft day.

mussop
04-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Going by hte latest mocks its looking more and more likely that our choices are going to be between

Antoine Cason CB 6-0, 182 Arizona
Branden Flowers CB 5-9, 180 Virginia Tech
Mike Jenkins CB 5-11, 200 South Florida
Phillip Merling DE 6-5, 272 Clemson
Kenny Phillips FS 6-1, 205 Miami
Calais Campbell DE 6-7, 282 Miami

Not sure who I would go with in this situation. I know it wouldnt be Phillips or Campbell. Which of these CB's best fits our D scheme?

Ole Miss Texan
04-17-2008, 02:58 PM
Which of these CB's best fits our D scheme?

I've been asking this exact question for the past 6 months and I still have no idea what's going on!

mussop
04-17-2008, 08:28 PM
Antoine Cason CB 6-0, 182 Arizona
Branden Flowers CB 5-9, 180 Virginia Tech
Mike Jenkins CB 5-11, 200 South Florida


Which of these CB's best fits our D scheme?
Branden Flowers CB 5-9, 180 Virginia Tech
Intresting tidbit about Flowers.
http://thebiglead.com/?p=4061

Does this eliminate him as a high character type we are looking for?