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View Full Version : Was it Carr or the receivers that played bad?


Marcus
12-05-2004, 05:42 PM
I noticed that a lot of you are punkin Carr for his play today.

Well, in the game that I watched, I couldn't tell if was Carr or the receivers that deserved more of the "blame", if that is something that you want to lay on somebody.

I agree Carr didn't have one of his better games, but before you want to throw Carr into the trash, and start searching for QBs in the draft, (:rofl:) go back and see how many times Carr stood in the pocket waiting for Gaffney, Armstrong, Miller, and Bradford to get open, or at least run their correct routes while AJ is being doubled up.

Lucky
12-05-2004, 06:04 PM
The receivers were smothered by the Jets coverage. Everywhere they went, a Jet was waiting, lurking. So I'll ask yet a 3rd question; why do the opposing defenses always know what routes the Texan receivers are running?

Marcus
12-05-2004, 06:14 PM
The receivers were smothered by the Jets coverage. Everywhere they went, a Jet was waiting, lurking. So I'll ask yet a 3rd question; why do the opposing defenses always know what routes the Texan receivers are running?

That's a fair question.

Something else needs mentioning. A common complaint by some of you is that Carr dumps it off to DD too much, and doesn't throw it enough to the receivers. Trying to force it into coverage will more than likely get you accused of "not playing well".

Just how "good" are our receivers? I wonder.

Vinny
12-05-2004, 06:19 PM
The receivers were smothered by the Jets coverage. Everywhere they went, a Jet was waiting, lurking. So I'll ask yet a 3rd question; why do the opposing defenses always know what routes the Texan receivers are running?
How can you tell that if you weren't there? Didn't I just watch the same game? They didn't exactly show us the secondary. Andre Ware was stating that Carr missed open WR's. Was he just joking?

LiveForTheGame
12-05-2004, 06:21 PM
The whole offense just wasn't working. The Jets are a good team and just beat us today offensively and defensively. However, our guys didn't exactly play well today. Except for Dunta and AJ.

aj.
12-05-2004, 06:22 PM
Just curious. Why can't you put mods/admin on ignore?

Vinny
12-05-2004, 06:24 PM
Just curious. Why can't you put mods/admin on ignore?Must be a default setting. I'll hook you up later when I adjust the settings.

LiveForTheGame
12-05-2004, 06:28 PM
Anyways this was not even Palmer, Carr or Caper's fault. The momentum just switched to fast for a young team to handle.

I agree with that. It's going ot be this way for the pains and struggles of a young team.

Txnpride
12-05-2004, 06:29 PM
Carr doesnt play defense.....neither does our defense LOL.The Jets havent played anyone worth a d#@%,(soft sched).they will fall in the first round....our Defense needs ALOT of work in the off-season. Hope they can fix it!!!

Lucky
12-05-2004, 06:37 PM
How can you tell that if you weren't there? Didn't I just watch the same game? They didn't exactly show us the secondary. Andre Ware was stating that Carr missed open WR's. Was he just joking?
Did Ware say that Carr missed an open receiver on every play? How many times exactly? I don't think that Texan receivers would be running free on every play and Carr would pick out the only guy who was covered. If so, we've got a conspiracy theory here.

It's not just this game. The big passing plays in the Titan game were from Carr buying time on the rollout and the receivers breaking off their routes. Not from the original routes. The Pack were all over the routes. Ditto the Broncos. Don't know about the Colts, because it was a fire drill in the backfield. Don't you even think it's a remote possibility that the Texans are either tipping their plays or the play design against the Cover 2 isn't working?

Vinny
12-05-2004, 06:43 PM
All I know is that guys like Billy Volek will toss 3 TD's on the Colts porus secondary but when we play them it's like Chinese arithmetic. Last year when I went to games Carr wasn't seeing open WR's and locked on to his first read way too much and I was really not impressed with his vision but I haven't been able to get to live games much this year. I just assume that it is more of the same.

utahmark
12-05-2004, 06:47 PM
carr did not play well today but that is not usually the case. i dont think he (or any of the offense) has played well against that type of defense yet.

davis looked pretty good in the open field, would like to see that more often. i think he can still be our featured back.

Wolf
12-05-2004, 06:48 PM
exactly. Seems that Carr locks in on a player of the game.. It runs in cycles... DD gets the bulk ..then AJ ... we just don't spread it out enough to open stuff up.
Even when we win we seem to make it easy on the defense because we cut the field in half for them (AJ's side and DD side)

Bradford/Gaffney has disappeared in this offense it seems.. I haven't looked at stats,so I might be proved wrong

blockhead83
12-05-2004, 07:02 PM
I think both the receivers and Carr had off-days. Some games it just seems like Carr is off...most of them are away games from my observance. It did look like there was miscommunication several times, but Carr's receivers (namely AJ) looked like they were performing with competence when the ball came their way. Carr's throw's were simply off, IMO, he threw too high, too low, or not far enough. He underthrew AJ on a possible touchdown (which resulted in a dropped pass), he horribly underthrew AJ again later by maybe 5-10 yards which AJ came back and made a play on, and he overthrew B. Miller on his second interception. You'd be very hard pressed to present evidence that Carr was an accurate passer today, whether his receivers were in the correct position or not. He has no excuse today, he had above average protection against an excellent Jets pass rush, and he couldn't make plays regardless of the time we gave him. That's not to say Carr is a bad QB, he's a very good developing quarter back. He just happened to play poorly today.

blockhead83
12-05-2004, 07:05 PM
Gaffney has made the most out of his opportunities this year, he has 30+ receptions and close to 500 yards. He's quietly having his best season ever, while Bradford has seemingly lost the big play ability he's supposed to represent in our offense.

thegr8fan
12-05-2004, 07:14 PM
Carr. there is your answer. And blockhead explained it best. Carr was off and making very bad choices today. SOMETIMES AJ bailed him out with a spectacular catch. Most times it was simply a bad throw into double and sometimes TRIPLE (Miller int. was triple covered) coverage. The one where Carr threw his last INT was over Miller's head and was the SECOND pass in the middle of the field against TRIPLE coverage.

quite simply, CARR stank it up today bigtime.

3 years is more than enough time to show some consistant improvement. Carr hasn't, IMHO. Draft a new QB and lets get started on the next 3 years of development of our next QB.

supertankman
12-05-2004, 07:23 PM
Carr. there is your answer. And blockhead explained it best. Carr was off and making very bad choices today. SOMETIMES AJ bailed him out with a spectacular catch. Most times it was simply a bad throw into double and sometimes TRIPLE (Miller int. was triple covered) coverage. The one where Carr threw his last INT was over Miller's head and was the SECOND pass in the middle of the field against TRIPLE coverage.

quite simply, CARR stank it up today bigtime.

3 years is more than enough time to show some consistant improvement. Carr hasn't, IMHO. Draft a new QB and lets get started on the next 3 years of development of our next QB.


Are you kidding, do you think the packers are saying that about Brett Farve right now, they are getting blown out worse then us by the Eagles. Carr didnt have the time to find open recievers and when he did, there was a flag on the play. As i predicted, the Texans will end up being 7-9 and will make the playoffs next year.

Lucky
12-05-2004, 07:40 PM
3 years is more than enough time to show some consistant improvement. Carr hasn't, IMHO. Draft a new QB and lets get started on the next 3 years of development of our next QB.
Why didn't you come to this realization last week? You know, when Carr led the Texans to a comeback from an 18 point deficit.

What has Carr done for me lately? The microwave society rears its ugly head once again.

thegr8fan
12-05-2004, 07:40 PM
Up until this game here I have given Carr plenty of opportunity to impress me. I give up after this game. Carr won't improve, IMHO, and it is time to bring in someone who will for the future. Cause, quite simply, Carr ain't got what it takes to make it in the NFL.

Carr had plenty of time, if he would have stepped into the pocket formed by the O-line. Instead he gets 'antsy' runs to his right (like he does EVERY time he scrambles), sometimes right into the defender who is being pushed that way to make a POCKET for Carr, and he immediately starts looking for a TE or DD to pass it to. The receivers become a non-factor as soon as Carr starts to run.

This is far easier to see in person at the games actually. I have seen many times when just as a receiver is getting open, usually by running the correct, but long, route that Carr chooses that time to start scrambling. And I would hazard a guess that 50% of those scrambles were NOT necessary but Carr getting 'antsy'.

Carr is simply not comfortable staying in the pocket and letting the play develop. He likes to scramble. Not necessarily a bad thing in and unto itself. But when he does it un-necessarily and the result is the downfield receivers are totally ignored then it does reflect in a poor pass or missed opportunity while Carr dumps the pass to either DD or our TE.

glad to see DD is getting back into his previous outstanding RB form, and AJ doesn't even need to be mentioned as one of the NFL's premier WR. So with a RB and WR combo like that we can't score a TD in an entire half of the game. Seems to me that the only position that needs upgrading to match the rest is the QB.

Lucky
12-05-2004, 07:48 PM
Up until this game here I have given Carr plenty of opportunity to impress me. I give up after this game...
That's convienent.

OK, let's get rid of Carr. But Casserly & Capers have to go, too. They're the ones who put their reputations and jobs on the line by making Carr the Texans franchise QB. If Carr's a bust (as you say), it's C & C who let it happen. If it's as bad as you say, blow the whole team up...from the scouting department on up. Or pop the top on another one and wait for next weeks game.

thegr8fan
12-05-2004, 07:58 PM
Or pop the top on another one and wait for next weeks game. now THAT is convenient. :listening

In case you forgot to check the schedule next weeks game is against the Colts. They got that up and coming newbee named Manning. Who is probably going to break the all time TD record for a season NEXT WEEKEND. Yeah, I really am looking forward to 'popping the top' and waiting for THAT game. :hairpull:

Carr stank this game. I call it like I see it. 3 years of playing and a very minimum amount of actual improvement, is how I see Carr's playing. He simply is NOT an NFL franchise QB for the Texans future, IMHO. If Capers and Cass. have offered some kind of guarantee that he would succeed or they would resign, then too bad for them.

TexansTrueFan
12-05-2004, 08:14 PM
Carr doesnt play defense.....neither does our defense LOL.The Jets havent played anyone worth a d#@%,(soft sched).they will fall in the first round....our Defense needs ALOT of work in the off-season. Hope they can fix it!!!


haha well ya ever consider the Defense might have been getting a LITTLE tired ??? MAYBE if the offense could get a few first downs then the D would be rested and able to make the kind of plays they did in the first half. Some of you guys crack me up :thud:

wags
12-05-2004, 08:18 PM
Carr stank this game. I call it like I see it. 3 years of playing and a very minimum amount of actual improvement, is how I see Carr's playing. He simply is NOT an NFL franchise QB for the Texans future, IMHO. If Capers and Cass. have offered some kind of guarantee that he would succeed or they would resign, then too bad for them.

QB's in their third year:

Favre 19 TD's 24 INT's
Aikman 11 TD's 10 INT's
Elway 22 TD's 23 INT's
Bradshaw 10 TD's 15 INT's

Imagine how many Super Bowls these franchises would have won if they had dumped these guys after three seasons.

Carr does still have a lot to improve upon but I have seen improvement and I'm willing to wait another year for him to breakout.

thegr8fan
12-05-2004, 08:35 PM
Brady 28 TD's 14 Int's

AaronBrooks 27 TD's 15 Int's (actually 4th year, but his 3rd year of act. playing time.)

Brian Griese 19 TD's 4 Ints.

Jon Kitna 23 TD's 16 Int's

at least move into the 90's if your going to compare 'apples to apples' wags. Those QB's were so long ago one of them is currently eligable for Social Security.

wags
12-05-2004, 08:46 PM
Brady 28 TD's 14 Int's

AaronBrooks 27 TD's 15 Int's (actually 4th year, but his 3rd year of act. playing time.)

Brian Griese 19 TD's 4 Ints.

Jon Kitna 23 TD's 16 Int's

at least move into the 90's if your going to compare 'apples to apples' wags. Those QB's were so long ago one of them is currently eligable for Social Security.

There is only one potentially great QB on your list. I don't want Carr to have a career like the other three you listed. The QB's I listed are all great, all Hall of Famers, and all won Super Bowls. The point I was trying to make was that not every great QB comes out and sets the NFL on fire his first three years. Sorry if that didn't register with you. If you think Carr should be benched that's fine. Just be ready to be dissapointed because it's not going to happen.

aj.
12-05-2004, 08:50 PM
QB's in their third year:

Favre 19 TD's 24 INT's
Aikman 11 TD's 10 INT's
Elway 22 TD's 23 INT's
Bradshaw 10 TD's 15 INT's

I love these comparisons. You do realize that for every Favre, Aikman, Elway, or Bradshaw there's probably a dozen QBs who had mediocre third years and didn't make it out beyond that mediocrity.

thegr8fan
12-05-2004, 08:58 PM
Oh I got it alright wags. But if you gotta go all the way back to the 70's and Bradshaw to make your point don't you think that you are stretching the stats more than just 'a little' to make your point of gr8 QB's who achieved something after their 3rd season of playing?

And my post were oriented on QB's playing on historically bad teams (other than Brady obviously) who still managed to make SIGNIFICANT improvements in their 3rd year of playing time.

Brooks-Saints
Kitna- Bengals
Griese-Bronco's after Elway
Brady- Patriots

wags
12-05-2004, 09:16 PM
I love these comparisons. You do realize that for every Favre, Aikman, Elway, or Bradshaw there's probably a dozen QBs who had mediocre third years and didn't make it out beyond that mediocrity.

Yea I realize that. You can't tell anyone right now that Carr is destined for greatness or mediocrity. I just don't think you can give up on Carr at this point because he is struggling in his third season. And no I don't mean you personally. There is no harm in comparing Carr with those QB's. Hopefully it added a little perspective to this thread. Is he the next great QB? idonno: You never know after three years.

Hervoyel
12-05-2004, 09:21 PM
Carr is Jekyll & Hyde right now. Brilliant one play-series-game and clueless the next play-series-game. There's no way to predict what you're going to get on any given week. Right now I'd say his opportunities have increased (and thus his stats are better than in previous years) but he's regressed in terms of taking advantage of those opportunities. He's nowhere near where he should be where his maturity is concerned. He couldn't look off a ten year old. He too often fails to look at other options other than the first and last. It's feast or famine as he either hits his primary or dumps down to his safety valve.

Recently he's become extremely innaccurate. What's going on here? I suspect it's just extended growing pains. He's not going to "get it" as quickly as we'd hoped he would. Could be worse. He could be progressing at Harrington's pace. It's just going to be a frustrating rest of the season and maybe we can do better next year.

There's so much wrong with this team that it's way past just Carr or the recievers. What's wrong with the run defense? What's wrong with the offensive line? What's wrong with the secondary? How come we get no pass rush? It goes on and on. We're a joke on 3rd down. I've reached a point where I don't even get excited when we get someone in a 3rd and long situation. that's an invitation to disaster. If a defensive series doesn't end in a pick it's usually a bad thing around these parts.

Play out the string like we did the previous two years and hope for some more help for next season. I'm already looking forward to the draft after this last collapse.

jnhcarrfans
12-05-2004, 09:29 PM
Yea I realize that. You can't tell anyone right now that Carr is destined for greatness or mediocrity. I just don't think you can give up on Carr at this point because he is struggling in his third season. And no I don't mean you personally. There is no harm in comparing Carr with those QB's. Hopefully it added a little perspective to this thread. Is he the next great QB? idonno: You never know after three years.


I think your making a better point. It makes more sense to let a guy develope. Its just that some people don't realize that you can't light up the NFL in your third year. We are still in the building stages. We have a long way to go. We'll feel alot better after we win a couple more games. Let's not expect way too much or we'll hate a new player each week. Wow just think what the Charges would be doing without Drew Brees (in his fourth year) :hmmm:

Hervoyel
12-05-2004, 10:19 PM
I don't know about that. In the right situation you can apparently light up the NFL in your first year. Rothelesburger (sp?) doesn't seem to be having too much trouble doing it. Of course he's got a) an offensive line, b) a running game that can be relied upon, c) a defense that can stop someone, d) recievers that can get open on a regular basis.

Now don't get me wrong on this. I understand Carr's not in the best possible situation but you would think that by the time three years had passed the Texans might have been able to get him at least one of those things? Wouldn't you?

And yeah, I know they're different players. They're not the same QB and Ben's not being asked to carry his team and all that. Still what have the Texans got to show for three years of spending and building? A team that doesn't work reliably in any aspect of the game. Not good.

Marcus
12-05-2004, 11:11 PM
Carr had plenty of time, if he would have stepped into the pocket formed by the O-line. Instead he gets 'antsy' runs to his right (like he does EVERY time he scrambles), sometimes right into the defender who is being pushed that way to make a POCKET for Carr, and he immediately starts looking for a TE or DD to pass it to. The receivers become a non-factor as soon as Carr starts to run.

Something that I have observed that drives me nuts is this. Whenever our defense is on the field, I see many times during each game where the opposing QB throws the ball immediately after taking either a 4 or 5 step drop, and completing it to the open primary receiver.

When Carr is on the field, I never see that. I never see Carr throwing it right after getting set. (And those sideline passes to AJ don't count) There's always a delay. He gets set and then waits, and looks and waits, and then scrambles. Never have I seen him just drop back and throw.

Why is the primary receiver never open? Is AJ always the primary? If so, whose fault is that?

blockhead83
12-06-2004, 02:57 AM
Something that I have observed that drives me nuts is this. Whenever our defense is on the field, I see many times during each game where the opposing QB throws the ball immediately after taking either a 4 or 5 step drop, and completing it to the open primary receiver.

When Carr is on the field, I never see that. I never see Carr throwing it right after getting set. (And those sideline passes to AJ don't count) There's always a delay. He gets set and then waits, and looks and waits, and then scrambles. Never have I seen him just drop back and throw.

Why is the primary receiver never open? Is AJ always the primary? If so, whose fault is that?

This is one of the facets of the Texans offense which really irks me. I understand every team is different but I totally agree Marcus, opposing QB's seem to be able to drop back and immediately fire it off for 6-10 easy yards. Very rarely does it seem like Carr drops back and expediently makes his read and fires. It makes me wonder whether maybe he doesn't trust himself, his receivers, or maybe Palmer isn't sending plays that give him an opportunity to unload it quickly.

How many times have we seen Carr throw a quick slant to AJ this season? Of course I'm biased on the issue, but I can only remember us going to the quick slant with any consistency during the Packer game.

Ibar_Harry
12-06-2004, 04:02 AM
There is a lot of mismanaged talent on this ball club. Its like a broken record, but until the coaching staff is dismissed this ball club is going nowhere. As one member of our board ineffect stated, show me one phase of this team that is working well. The answer is none. When nothing is working right or looks good, you have to look at the coaching staff and its planners. Sorry, but they all have to go and Casserly has to see that. I stated the injuries last year were more serious than we thought and the coaching staff and Casserly put to much stock in the return to form of these injured players. I said we had been set back at least one year, if not more. I'm sorry, but any 5 year plans the Texans had is down the drain and they are going to have to start over in the draft. It will be years before this ball club recovers. The injuries weren't planned, they just happened but we didn't adjust. We tried to go with some seasoned verterns, but they are quickly becoming medicare eligible. This season is over and unless the coaching staff does some quick retrenching they may well totally destroy the confidence of this ball club. Its quickly approaching that right now. I believe a number of you have posted a picture of Carr with fire in his eyes. That was an awesome picture, but he had to immediately appoligize to the ref, if you recall. Ask yourself, why?

Txnpride
12-08-2004, 10:12 AM
haha well ya ever consider the Defense might have been getting a LITTLE tired ??? MAYBE if the offense could get a few first downs then the D would be rested and able to make the kind of plays they did in the first half. Some of you guys crack me up :thud:I totally agree about the first downs,But our defense needs alot of work in the off-season...look at how many points we have given up???Thats nothing to crack up about.

HardCoreTxn
12-08-2004, 10:57 AM
Just how "good" are our receivers? I wonder.

IMO we have a great wr core, I think our problem is at TE, Im a Billy fan, but cmon, 1 td this season?!? let Armstrong play TE or something! what has Bruener done? yes they pass off to Dom alot because Carr has no TE for a saftey net whatsoever :hairpull:

Lucky
12-08-2004, 01:31 PM
i find it unseemly how carr's most strident defenders are so willing to blame DD and even AJ for carr's failures. i think DD is at least average as an NFL starting RB...
Davis is 21st in rushing yards, 31st in yards/carry among starting NFL backs. 21st & 31st are not average numbers.

Carr is 15th in passing rating, 9th in passing yards, 8th in yards/pass attempt. Those are at least average numbers.

wags
12-08-2004, 03:51 PM
Davis is 21st in rushing yards, 31st in yards/carry among starting NFL backs. 21st & 31st are not average numbers.

DD is ranked 18th in rushing yards and that is with Michael Vick ranked ahead of him. 17th just counting running backs. He also ranks in the top ten in yards per reception for a RB, 2nd in receptions for a RB, 14th in total touchdowns and 6th in rushing touchdowns.

nunusguy
12-08-2004, 05:35 PM
It's on Carr. I remember much of the talk before the season started by
people like Kipper, Jaws and some other national sports talking-heads along
with all the local "experts" saying this would be Carr's breakout year, his
arrival on the national stage of the NFL. Didn't happen. Not yet.
Should we dump him and get another QB - that's pretty ridiculous to even
discuss at this time.
I think he's losing his composure. Maybe all those sacks he took in his rookie year are deja vu all over again - in the NY game his accuracy was really
impaired after he took that hard hit and had to take a play off.
But whether his problem is physical, mental, or emotional,
they need to get to the bottom of it ASAP.

infantrycak
12-08-2004, 06:15 PM
Davis is 21st in rushing yards, ...

To be fair on this one stat, DD missed one game entirely and played only part time in three other games in a four game stretch. Not surprising that he doesn't have the total yards.

As for the ypc, that has definitely been half and half--
DD and the OL. Through the mid part of the season DD was freaked by the fumble problem and hamstringed with injuries and did not run as he normally does, plus the OL sucked. The last couple of games, DD has looked close to last year's form but the OL has still sucked.

Lucky
12-08-2004, 08:00 PM
DD is ranked 18th in rushing yards and that is with Michael Vick ranked ahead of him. 17th just counting running backs...
That's my bad. Meant to say that Domanick is 21st in yards/game among starting RBs.


RB rushing leaders link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=RB&conference=NFL&year=season_2004&sort=39&timeframe=ToDate)

I'm not down on DD. What with the fumbling problem and then the line struggling, he's had a tough soph season. Davis is better than he's shown, but he's not a superstar and he hasn't been "average" this season. My point was to show that the notion that the cause of the offense's struggles lay at Carr's feet is laughable.


...please PM me next year if you play in a money league- i'd like to take yours.
Love to. But, you'll have to enable the PM's in your options.