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Grid
12-05-2004, 02:46 PM
I dont lay any of the blame for this loss on the Texans. Terrible officiating in the third quarter that took the fire out of our team.


Davis looked good.. he may be our starter next year after all.

WWJD
12-05-2004, 02:49 PM
I'll go along with the poor calls but good teams overcome adversity. The Texans are just not on par with the Jets overall. I'm impressed with what Pennington has been able to do today post injury. He's played very well. And I think AJ is proving he's a standout receiver against any team. Sometimes you just aren't as good as the other team. That's the case today.

Grid
12-05-2004, 02:51 PM
great teams overcome buttloads of bad calls.. the texans are not yet a great team.. they are a good team. Unfortunatly we are a good team that can easily lose its momentum.

If the calls had been legit I dont think we would have gotten so lethargic.. but those calls were obvious mistakes and they led to jets touchdowns.

WWJD
12-05-2004, 02:55 PM
I must have missed something. I saw a safety called back for the Jets....that's to the Texans advantage.

Then I saw Carr get called for grounding...which I did not agree with.

Was there more calls?

Vinny
12-05-2004, 02:57 PM
We got beat by a better team. I can't blame the officials for this.

ArlingtonTexan
12-05-2004, 02:59 PM
I must have missed something. I saw a safety called back for the Jets....that's to the Texans advantage.

Then I saw Carr get called for grounding...which I did not agree with.

Was there more calls?

did you miss the push in the back that was overturned...that was nearly on par with the grounding.

WWJD
12-05-2004, 03:01 PM
I agree Vinny although it seems I must have missed some "bad" calls against the Texans.

Even the announcers said the Jets were the least penalized team in the league and they were being flagged for a bunch today. I guess it's safe to say the game got sloppy in the 3rd quarter. That happens.

Like I said the Jets are just better. We all knew that going in that they had an outstanding record, it was a home game, great fans, possible weather factors. It was going to be hard for the Texans to win this one.

I think the Texans played hard at times and just got beat. AJ made some highlight film catches. They ran hard. Good to see flashes of offensive firepower. This team will jell one day and be very potent.

WWJD
12-05-2004, 03:01 PM
did you miss the push in the back that was overturned...that was nearly on par with the grounding.


I didn't see that. I had a craving for a Coke and ran to get one. I'll check the news for that one.

Vinny
12-05-2004, 03:02 PM
did you miss the push in the back that was overturned...that was nearly on par with the grounding.That wasn't much of a clip and it was on the side of the blocker, not from behind. I can't blame them for picking that flag up. The team gave up on that play if you watch it again. That's on us, not the refs.

ArlingtonTexan
12-05-2004, 03:08 PM
the key play in the game was the interception by carr after robinson put the ball near field goal range. A good team takes advantage of that opportunity on the road for, at minimum a field goal. the texans have good parts but are not a good team...medicore, not good.

Reddevil63
12-05-2004, 03:09 PM
So many holes to fill this offseason...

Did they ever update Foreman's injury??

ArlingtonTexan
12-05-2004, 03:10 PM
That wasn't much of a clip and it was on the side of the blocker, not from behind. I can't blame them for picking that flag up. The team gave up on that play if you watch it again. That's on us, not the refs.

i agree about the texans gave up, but how often are those tap/judgements calls picked up??

TexanExile
12-05-2004, 03:14 PM
And Starling's fumble of a kickoff return.

This team DID lose momentum at the hand of the refs, and due to a really boneheaded special-teams escape that let the Jets get all the way to the Houston 4. So what? It's not enough of an excuse, considering that most of the second half was still ahead of them. The Jets chewed up the clock by running ALL OVER the Texans D...it wasn't even just Martin. Lamont Jordan looked like someone had covered him in Crisco, the way people fell off of him.

AJ and Dunta looked great as usual. But this team's defensive woes will kill it, because offense's stupid turnovers will keep the bad defense on the field.

TexSon
12-05-2004, 03:17 PM
The Jets had some very questionable calls go against them as well. I refuse to blame this on the refs... they were terrible for both sides.
This team just seems to give up when anything goes against them. With the lone exception of the TN game last week.

ThaShark316
12-05-2004, 03:17 PM
The Texans as a team were demoralized after that call...u could see it after the Martin TD,to the end of the game.

nunusguy
12-05-2004, 03:20 PM
the key play in the game was the interception by carr after robinson put the ball near field goal range.
Yea, Carr is making some bad passes (or very risky ones, akn as bad judgement), at some very critical points in the game. This is really serious and of major concern because he's not in his rookie year, it's his 3rd year of being the "starter". And he's repeating these mistakes. The learning curve should have flattened out for him by now.

Grid
12-05-2004, 03:29 PM
I am not judging any of the texans play during the 3rd and 4th quarter.

I compare it to a boxing match I watched a few months back where the ref kept calling a fighter for holding behind the head.. it was stupid, it was unnecessary, and it completely ruined the rythm of the fight for the fans and the boxers. The match was a 12 round farce that wasnt the least bit entertaining.

That is basicly what happened here. The refs went crazy in the 3rd quarter.. blew some HUGE calls against the texans.. gave the jets two TDs and completely took the fire out of us.. while instilling the fire in the jets.

We looked GOOD this game.. we didnt even have a chance to show if we could come out in the second half and continue to play like we did in the first.

Yah yah i know.. great players overcome.. great teams overcome.. blah blah blah. its true, but its also a lame excuse. Great teams overcome when its a bad pass interference call that leads to a 60 yard gain that the opposing team shouldnt have gotten. great teams overcome when an incomplete pass is ruled a fumble. even great teams would have a hard time overcoming that 3rd quarter.

I dont expect yall to agree with me.. but that is the way I see this game. I am not disappointed in the way the Texans played.. the 2nd half was a product of the penalty calls and the ruined momentum and frustration.

Just gonna have to look past this game and hope we get a better crew for next week.

Doug
12-05-2004, 03:31 PM
7-6 lead and you call a holding on the 50, then say there was no hold and give the ball on the 4 yard line to the Jets. Everybody saw that flag came out and some of our players stopped. Just kill our momentum refs. *****S!
Even in High School they teach you not to stop till you hear the whistle, Can't think of who it is but I saw two players run (jog) right past Moss after seeing the flag and stopped.

beerlover
12-05-2004, 03:41 PM
Carr is telegraphing the pass to his legit #1 target Andre Johnson its that simple.

Carr had good protection until late in the 4th in must pass situations to be expected. Also the run blocking was good, the hitch in the backfiled or delayed handoff is butt ugly and the real reason for the running game shut down, whenever the hole is hit quick & hard it leads to positive yardage.

I agree with the sidearm motion Carr submits to as the pressure increases, seems like a comfort zone something to work on as well as forcing the pass into double/trippel coverage.

On a positive note how about going after Lamont Jorden the Jets back-up rb in the off season? He looks like a poor mans Deuce to me. Duanta Robinson continues to be a bright spot on defense & Jason Babin even contributed. Next week Colts and payback, bring it Relient :bouncey:

Wolf
12-05-2004, 03:58 PM
I thought that too (about him telegraphing) his passes.. I don't see him looking off anyone.

I think the key play was the grounding call.. It is one of those calls that probably could be called more but aren't called. Today it was called..I think that deflated the balloon.. and then when Davis picks the 1st down.. all air went out due to the Pitts penalty after that.

What upset me is that when Carr gets knocked down or sack. I would expect an offensive linemen to be there and pick him up..not just walk around till he gets into the huddle.

Wolf
12-05-2004, 04:05 PM
I know the refs are professionals and I don't blame them for the loss. But after the grounding call.. 1st thing I though of was baseball and when a player jaws at the umpire about a strike or ball. that "gray" area of whether it is a strike or ball becomes alittle smaller and questionable calls go against you.. back to topic.. the grounding call where there is a missed route is something that is never called eventhough it is a judgement call. My feelings is that "gray" area became smaller after our coaches jawed at the refs

but that was my feelings at the time of the call.

OzzO
12-05-2004, 04:15 PM
Personally, I think it was grounding.. in the technical term of it as there was not a reciever in the area (even though there was no pressue).

Hey, if the QB and WR can't get on the same page.... better go find that book and re-read it. There's gonna be a test on it every Sunday.

Wolf
12-05-2004, 04:17 PM
Personally, I think it was grounding.. in the technical term of it as there was not a reciever in the area (even though there was no pressue).

Hey, if the QB and WR can't get on the same page.... better go find that book and re-read it. There's gonna be a test on it every Sunday.

my feelings exactly

Lucky
12-05-2004, 04:21 PM
From the NFL Rulebook (http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/intentionalgrounding):

Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass

1. Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.

2. Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

3. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).

There wasn't an "imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense". For a change. Just a blown play by the Texans and a blown call by the ref. I'm hoping that this will be Tom White's last year officiating NFL games.

Wolf
12-05-2004, 04:24 PM
it reminded me of a few years ago when Dan Marino took a snap and fired the ball (he was around the opponents 10 yard line) and it it the crossbar of the field goal.. they called it grounding.. and all Dan could do was laugh... There were no pressure of a sack or anything (if I recall right)

OzzO
12-05-2004, 04:26 PM
Thanks Lucky for the find... I think that highlighted area can be subject to a viewpoint - doesn't the defense pretty much always bring some pressure and since Carr took some steps back to pass.....

But regardless, splitting hairs.

rhc564
12-05-2004, 04:51 PM
...just imagine if Capers was'nt known as a defensive minded coach :um:

infantrycak
12-05-2004, 06:40 PM
The Jets were the better team and while momentum etc. can change games dramatically, a good team would have responded to bad calls from refs by coming back harder instead of folding. So basically, the Texans proved they weren't as good a team by responding badly.

That said, there were several bad calls:

1) No blow to the head call when Carr when down. "The ball was already in the air..." What BS is that? Every roughing the passer call comes while the ball is in the air. You aren't allowed to hit a QB in the head. Earlier this year one Texan (Smith or Deloach I believe) was tagged after the ball was in the air for brushing his hand on a QB's head.

2) Block in the back on the kick. His hand touched the 5 on 54's back numbers. Don't know how that can be called on the side. Did it affect the play? Probably not, but a gazillion return penalties are called each year that didn't affect the return. Plus, it is one thing to not call a technically correct penalty that doesn't affect a play and totally another to pick the flag up after the correct call was made.

3) Carr's intentional grounding. Has to be one of the worst calls ever. As the commentators said there are 3+ plays in most games where the QB and WR miscommunicate and no one has ever called that as intentional grounding before.

The Texans had plenty of other problems today contributing to losing this game--they didn't need bad officiating on top of it.

aj.
12-05-2004, 08:32 PM
I'd argue that the Texans only TD was a gift from the officials. The illegal contact on T Buck was pretty cheesy. The int grounding was a bad call but bad calls or no-calls didn't lose this game. The Texans offense and defense was inept in the second half. Too many of these "snowballs" when on the road. Line up and beat someone for a change.

jnhcarrfans
12-05-2004, 08:36 PM
We are just not experienced or good enough at all positions to win games like this. We expect way too much from this young team. Just keep it together and the necassary pieces will come.

rhc564
12-05-2004, 08:43 PM
We are just not experienced or good enough at all positions to win games like this. We expect way too much from this young team. Just keep it together and the necassary pieces will come.

What does effort have to do with experience and "good enough?"

disaacks3
12-05-2004, 09:14 PM
The TEXANS lost this one due to a number of reasons:

IMHO (in order of importance):

1. Inability to overcome momentum shift. Granted, it was caused by several inept / borderline calls & bad breaks (starting with the rotten bounce on the Jets punt), but we've got to overcome those, especially on the road. Texans really looked like they 'mailed it in' from there on out.

2. Poor Defensive play, esp. in run pursuit. We got absolutely HANDLED by the Jets line, and our outside contain was just horrible.

3. Poor decision-making by Carr. He could easily have ended the day with 5+ picks. AJ made him look better than he should have on several occasions.

The "Good" things I saw today:

1. The O-Line actually seemed to show up. I know the Jets lost their #1 pass-rusher to injury early, but we still looked FAR better in protection than usual.

2. DD seemed to be running with more "confidence", and showed some burst. The big one may have gotten called back, but it was still a bright spot for him personally.

3. The play-calling appeared more balanced, and more willing to take some chances. Our failures in the passing game today weren't due to bad play design, just poor execution by the QB. Maybe having Stanley injured during warmups wasn't such a bad thing.

:soapbox: The Refs didn't lose this one for us, though they obviously had a HUGE contribution to the momentum shift. That said, they looked like one of the worst crews in NFL history for about 5 minutes there. As for their contribution to our first TD...was it a "cheap" call?...maybe, but at least it was by the book and supposedly an "area of importance" this year. The same can't be said for the "wave-off" of the Punt return flag or the Carr "intentional grounding" calls.

aj.
12-05-2004, 09:25 PM
We expect way too much from this young team.

If this was 2002, or even last year with the injuries, I'd agree with you.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than 48 yards and zero points in two quarters of football.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than being outscored 109-34 in three consecutive road games.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than the ineptitute and lifelessness we've seen in recent road games.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a mostly veteran defensive front to hold an opponent to under 210 rushing yards in a game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a 7-9 record from this team. They will need to win two more games to get there. This team doesn't appear to have the fortitude to win another road game. If they win fewer than 7 games this year, it will be a disappointment considering their relative lack of injuries.

infantrycak
12-05-2004, 09:50 PM
I'd argue that the Texans only TD was a gift from the officials. The illegal contact on T Buck was pretty cheesy. The int grounding was a bad call but bad calls or no-calls didn't lose this game. The Texans offense and defense was inept in the second half. Too many of these "snowballs" when on the road. Line up and beat someone for a change.

I agree that the better team won today. I just think that bad officiating detracts from the game and this was a bad officiating day.

HJam72
12-06-2004, 03:48 AM
Curtis Martin walked all over our defense and we scored 7 points on a free play. We got our butts kicked by 22 points. The block in the back on the return really wasn't a foul. The flag never should've been thrown. The flag that gave us the free play wasn't much of a foul either. The refs were just plain goofy today, but we got killed. The way I see it, is that we were outgunned and lucky to hold on in the first half. Many, many times, a team like us will play hard and hold on in the first half against a better team, but get worn out and dominated in the second half. I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't thinking at half-time that we would win this game. I was thinking that the defense has done well in the red-zone SO FAR, but it won't last, and that we got a lucky 7 points.

If the refs had been stellar, maybe this is a closer game, but we still would've lost.

Double Barrel
12-06-2004, 10:30 AM
Yep, we're still a year (or two) away from being a good team.

They just don't seem to overcome adversity on a consistent basis. If bad ref calls can derail your teams momentum, then it is likely that you are not a good team.

We are a pretty one dimensional team, and easy to figure out, at that. We just don't scare anybody at this point in our history and development.

Face it, we're doing alright this year to finish 6-10, and really good for us if it's 7-9.

(and I'll be content with 6-10...it's still an improvement over last year!)