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maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 11:01 AM
With the possibility of signing Quinn Gray and all the talk about trading Sage, I have an interesting question to ask:

Do you think Matt's trade value today is as high as what we gave for him?

Would you still make that trade today?

What other teams in the NFL would Matt start for today?

Gray "appears" to have really good ability and decision making skills. I don't see him coming here to be a #3 QB and he may be a better long term QB prospect than either Matt or Sage. Personally, if we can get anything more for Matt than we can for Sage, I would trade Matt over Sage. I just don't see where Matt is head and shoulders better than Sage and he is apparently less durable. If he has more trade value and we sign Gray, I say trade 'em.

What say you?

:fans:

infantrycak
03-21-2008, 11:03 AM
:brickwall: :bat: :shoot: :aikido: :penalty: :deadhorse

Geez--there aren't enough smilies for this thread.

Polo
03-21-2008, 11:05 AM
Quinn Gray? A better long term prospect than Matt or Sage ?

What are you basing this on ?

Specnatz
03-21-2008, 11:09 AM
This answer this question.

If Matt was a FA would he been signed already? YES!!

If Sage was a FA would he have been signed already? YES!!

I hopis help mad because you really have an issue with QBs.

Polo
03-21-2008, 11:14 AM
Are you looking strictly at production when comparing Matt and Sage ?

If Sage was such a beast he should have clearly out shown Matt in the time he was afforded. IMO he didn't.

Sage has been with the team longer, has played in the system longer and is the more "experienced" player. He also can play without the pressure of knowing that he's been paid to be "the man" .

Don't you think that Matt will have grown a bit from year one to year two ? Or are you assuming that'll he'll still be on a Sage type playing level ?

Give the guy a little time. He's the best QB on our roster.

Thorn
03-21-2008, 11:16 AM
Sage for president!


Oh, sorry, didn't mean to add to trauma... LOL

Lucky
03-21-2008, 11:34 AM
Geez--there aren't enough smilies for this thread.
Think this one is appropriate.

:thud:

Let's pretend that all things between Sage & Matt are equal, except their respective contacts. Sage's contract is much more manageable to trade, for both the Texans and their trading partner. I hope that helps.

Specnatz
03-21-2008, 11:43 AM
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/bsmeter.gif

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/sign-crap.gif

This should help.

nunusguy
03-21-2008, 12:03 PM
Do you think Matt's trade value today is as high as what we gave for him?


Of course. Absolutely ! No doubt about it.
Listen son, I've got some property I want to show east of here a ways. Actually its in Louisiana. It's a little swappy, and you gotta be careful that the 'gators don't bite you. But here's the deal, its prime Real Estate, but I'm gonna let you have it at a bargain-basement price !

GuerillaBlack
03-21-2008, 12:11 PM
This thread equals:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/586/remoteimage2jn1.jpg

Tailgate
03-21-2008, 12:12 PM
With the possibility of signing Quinn Gray and all the talk about trading Sage, I have an interesting question to ask:

Do you think Matt's trade value today is as high as what we gave for him?

Would you still make that trade today?

What other teams in the NFL would Matt start for today?

Gray "appears" to have really good ability and decision making skills. I don't see him coming here to be a #3 QB and he may be a better long term QB prospect than either Matt or Sage. Personally, if we can get anything more for Matt than we can for Sage, I would trade Matt over Sage. I just don't see where Matt is head and shoulders better than Sage and he is apparently less durable. If he has more trade value and we sign Gray, I say trade 'em.

What say you?

:fans:


Oh no you dih-ent! (snaps fingers 3 times forming a z)

J-Russ
03-21-2008, 12:52 PM
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/181554.gif

Nuff' said.

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 12:53 PM
With the possibility of signing Quinn Gray and all the talk about trading Sage, I have an interesting question to ask:

Do you think Matt's trade value today is as high as what we gave for him?

Would you still make that trade today?

What other teams in the NFL would Matt start for today?

Gray "appears" to have really good ability and decision making skills. I don't see him coming here to be a #3 QB and he may be a better long term QB prospect than either Matt or Sage. Personally, if we can get anything more for Matt than we can for Sage, I would trade Matt over Sage. I just don't see where Matt is head and shoulders better than Sage and he is apparently less durable. If he has more trade value and we sign Gray, I say trade 'em.

What say you?

:fans:

That this Matt vs Sage is quickly appraoching the Carr level of stupidity among some posters.

I'm about to stop entering any thread that has either Matt Schaub or Sage Rosenfels in the title.

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 12:54 PM
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10063/181554.gif

Nuff' said.

The idea of locking this thread is the best thing I've read in this thread.

The Dream
03-21-2008, 01:11 PM
trade both for Vince.........



But I'd rather have Sage than Schaub for multiple reasons.............

badboy
03-21-2008, 01:16 PM
I want to say that on any given Sunday any NFL team can beat another. Bad things happen to good people. I think we will take this one day at a time and pull together as a team. You are only as good as your last performance and we are only as strong as our weakest link. Can I get a Harumpf to that?

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:18 PM
Quinn Gray? A better long term prospect than Matt or Sage ?

What are you basing this on ?

Younger, better stats....

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:20 PM
This answer this question.

If Matt was a FA would he been signed already? YES!!

If Sage was a FA would he have been signed already? YES!!

I hopis help mad because you really have an issue with QBs.

Huh?

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:21 PM
Let's pretend that all things between Sage & Matt are equal, except their respective contacts. Sage's contract is much more manageable to trade, for both the Texans and their trading partner. I hope that helps.

Okay, good point. But, you didn't answer any of my questions.

GuerillaBlack
03-21-2008, 01:22 PM
If we trade Sage away, Quinn would be a good backup. But hell to the no on trading Matt. That would be dumb. And honestly, I would sign Gray and have him and Sage battle it out for the number two position.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:22 PM
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/bsmeter.gif

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/sign-crap.gif

This should help.

Back to ya ....... koolaid drinker!

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Younger, better stats....

:rant:
Gray had about the same number of TDs, if we even up the playing time, and fewer INTs then Sage. So are you going to say the Gray is younger and has better stats Sage, once again if we extended Grays stats out to give them an egual amount of attempts? And lets not teven mention that Gray was throwing to a hugely inferior recieving corps then Sage was. And since we seem to be conviently forgetting stuff, let's jsut drop the 4 INTs that Sage threw against the Titans. Sage is nothing more then a journeyman back-up, if some team has it in their head that he can start and offers a draft pick for him the idea of not pulling the trigger is ludicris to me.

For Heaven's sake people, Sage failed to bet out Carr his first season here. And I promise you he will not beat out Schaub for the starting spot.

Lucky
03-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Okay, good point. But, you didn't answer any of my questions.
I didn't answer any of the Schaub questions specifically, because they're not relevant to the question you posed in the title. There's no possibility of Schaub being traded. So it doesn't matter what his trade value is. Sage could be traded because a) he's not the starter, and b) he has a very tradable contract.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:29 PM
Are you looking strictly at production when comparing Matt and Sage ?

If Sage was such a beast he should have clearly out shown Matt in the time he was afforded. IMO he didn't.

Sage has been with the team longer, has played in the system longer and is the more "experienced" player. He also can play without the pressure of knowing that he's been paid to be "the man" .

Don't you think that Matt will have grown a bit from year one to year two ? Or are you assuming that'll he'll still be on a Sage type playing level ?

Give the guy a little time. He's the best QB on our roster.

"Are you looking strictly at production when comparing Matt and Sage ?" No.

"Sage has been with the team longer, has played in the system longer and is the more "experienced" player. He also can play without the pressure of knowing that he's been paid to be "the man" ." Are you saying that Matt can't handle being "the man"?

"Don't you think that Matt will have grown a bit from year one to year two ? Or are you assuming that'll he'll still be on a Sage type playing level ?" Until proven otherwise, that is what I'm assuming.

"Give the guy a little time. He's the best QB on our roster." Perhaps, but not by much & so far he's much less durable.

I didn't say Sage was a beast .... just that they were/are comparable. You didn't answer any of my questions.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:32 PM
Of course. Absolutely ! No doubt about it.
Listen son, I've got some property I want to show east of here a ways. Actually its in Louisiana. It's a little swappy, and you gotta be careful that the 'gators don't bite you. But here's the deal, its prime Real Estate, but I'm gonna let you have it at a bargain-basement price !

Son? LOL!

Okay, if his trade value is still as high and he's not THAT much better than Sage, then why not trade him instead of Sage? Can we not use the picks?

Texan_Bill
03-21-2008, 01:33 PM
:brickwall: :shoot: :aikido: :penalty: :deadhorse

Geez--there aren't enough smilies for this thread.

QFT.......

:specnatz:

GuerillaBlack
03-21-2008, 01:35 PM
Why the hell would you want to trade Schaub in the first place?

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm about to stop entering any thread that has either Matt Schaub or Sage Rosenfels in the title.

That would probably be a good thing!

And this isn't a Matt vs. Sage who should start thread. This is about getting the most value for our team to build on. If Matt and Sage are about equal, why not trade the one that gives us more picks to fill out our team with.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Texan_Bill
03-21-2008, 01:36 PM
Why the hell would you want to trade Schaub in the first place?

Especially since David Carr is no longer available..... :worm:

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:38 PM
If we trade Sage away, Quinn would be a good backup. But hell to the no on trading Matt. That would be dumb. And honestly, I would sign Gray and have him and Sage battle it out for the number two position.

Okay, I understand your thoughts. What has Matt done to make him SO much more valuable than Sage?

Specnatz
03-21-2008, 01:41 PM
Younger, better stats....

Huh?

If he is such a good prospect why is it that the Vikings are looking to give us a third for Sage when Gray is a FA? Because he has more value than Gray.

Better stats?

You mean like completion % and YPA or maybe you are referring to the huge differance in rating 84.5 to 85.6, I mean what is the differance in 1%?

Oh and he is one year younger than Sage and two years older than Matt. Of course this will just go in one ear and out the other.


One day I will learn ...... http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/sign-feedtrolls.gif

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:46 PM
:rant:
Gray had about the same number of TDs, if we even up the playing time, and fewer INTs then Sage. So are you going to say the Gray is younger and has better stats Sage, once again if we extended Grays stats out to give them an egual amount of attempts? And lets not teven mention that Gray was throwing to a hugely inferior recieving corps then Sage was. And since we seem to be conviently forgetting stuff, let's jsut drop the 4 INTs that Sage threw against the Titans. Sage is nothing more then a journeyman back-up, if some team has it in their head that he can start and offers a draft pick for him the idea of not pulling the trigger is ludicris to me.

For Heaven's sake people, Sage failed to bet out Carr his first season here. And I promise you he will not beat out Schaub for the starting spot.

Sage has NEVER been given the opportunity to beat out Carr or Schaub. Carr & Schaub were both ordained starters and never had to compete for their jobs.

What makes you think Schaub is anything more than a journeyman backup? What has he done to prove otherwise?

You say Gray was throwing to inferior receivers and that is one reason why I think he may be a better long term QB solution than Matt or Sage. Also, his TD to INT ratio is much better. So, our 2 QBs have proven to be pretty equal so far, why not trade the QB that we can get the most picks for and improve our team in more places.

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 01:47 PM
That would probably be a good thing!

And this isn't a Matt vs. Sage who should start thread. This is about getting the most value for our team to build on. If Matt and Sage are about equal, why not trade the one that gives us more picks to fill out our team with.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

As would you decieding to stop bringing this up.

I did answer your questions, specificly the "What say you?" one. As for the rest.

Do you think Matt's trade value today is as high as what we gave for him?

Yes. Everybody knew that he was going to need some legit playing time to figure things out. His injury issues are not that concering as both came from unusal hits (haynesworth and the blind side in SD).

Would you still make that trade today?

Yes. If we had not made the trade we would have more then likely been forced to use anoter high 1st round pick on a QB, something that I once thought would always be a good idea, and now I'm not so sure.

What other teams in the NFL would Matt start for today?
Minnesota
Miami
Atlanta
Chicago (if their FO had the brain cells to realize that their Qbs all suck)
KC
Baltimore
Maybe Buffalo
He would also be in the competition in San Fransico


Fell better.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 01:50 PM
If he is such a good prospect why is it that the Vikings are looking to give us a third for Sage when Gray is a FA? Because he has more value than Gray.

Better stats?

You mean like completion % and YPA or maybe you are referring to the huge differance in rating 84.5 to 85.6, I mean what is the differance in 1%?

Oh and he is one year younger than Sage and two years older than Matt. Of course this will just go in one ear and out the other.


One day I will learn ...... http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/sign-feedtrolls.gif

As I understand it, Gray is a FA and can sign anywhere, Sage has to be traded.

Look at TD to INT ratio.

I didn't think he was older than Matt, so that's a good point, except that QBs often aren't in their prime until they're 30 anyways.

Ole Miss Texan
03-21-2008, 02:05 PM
This is about getting the most value for our team to build on. If Matt and Sage are about equal, why not trade the one that gives us more picks to fill out our team with.


Seems to me Kubiak and Smith feel Schaub is our franchise Quarterback. They aren't going to trade him away just because he can get us more picks. They are building up our team, one way IS to trade for more draft picks- but not your starting QB. Schaub is QB, Sage is our Backup- that's not going to change.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:07 PM
Minnesota
Miami
Atlanta
Chicago (if their FO had the brain cells to realize that their Qbs all suck)
KC
Baltimore
Maybe Buffalo
He would also be in the competition in San Fransico


Fell better.

Minnesota: He could probably beat out T. Jackson but, it might be closer than you think because Jackson is really growing into the position. Here, I say he probably would start.

Miami: Yes, I agree.

Atlanta: Yes, I agree.

Chicago: Yes, I agree.

KC: Yes, I agree.

Baltimore: I think he would have a hard time beating out Kyle Boller and Troy Smith looked pretty good at the end of the year, too. So, I'm gonna say doubtful here.

Buffalo: Maybe.

So, of all the teams in the NFL, he MIGHT start for 5, all of whom are bad teams. Does that give you confidence that he's our QB of the future?

Vinny
03-21-2008, 02:07 PM
Sage is Gifford Neilson/Commander Cody/Frank Reich.....a guy that is good enough to step in short term but not good enough to play at a high level for the long haul (obviously imo of course). He is the equivalent of a 4th pitcher in a MLB rotation that can give you a lot of innings but he isn't good enough to be your number one starter.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:12 PM
Seems to me Kubiak and Smith feel Schaub is our franchise Quarterback. They aren't going to trade him away just because he can get us more picks. They are building up our team, one way IS to trade for more draft picks- but not your starting QB. Schaub is QB, Sage is our Backup- that's not going to change.

I don't disagree with you but, I think that's a problem. Not that Schaub is our starter but, that he was ORDAINED the starter without having to compete for the job. What has he done to be called a "franchise" QB?

My other point is that, if our 2 QBs are pretty similar in capability (which stats and victories show they are) and neither one is a proven starter, and neither one may really be our QB of the future, why not trade the one who has more value?

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:14 PM
Sage is Gifford Neilson/Commander Cody/Frank Reich.....a guy that is good enough to step in short term but not good enough to play at a high level for the long haul (obviously imo of course). He is the equivalent of a 4th pitcher in a MLB rotation that can give you a lot of innings but he isn't good enough to be your number one starter.

And Schaub has PROVEN that he is not "Gifford Neilson/Commander Cody/Frank Reich.....a guy that is good enough to step in short term but not good enough to play at a high level for the long haul"?? Actually, that argument fits Schaub much more at this point because of his durability issues.

The Pencil Neck
03-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Minnesota: He could probably beat out T. Jackson but, it might be closer than you think because Jackson is really growing into the position. Here, I say he probably would start.

Miami: Yes, I agree.

Atlanta: Yes, I agree.

Chicago: Yes, I agree.

KC: Yes, I agree.

Baltimore: I think he would have a hard time beating out Kyle Boller and Troy Smith looked pretty good at the end of the year, too. So, I'm gonna say doubtful here.

Buffalo: Maybe.

So, of all the teams in the NFL, he MIGHT start for 5, all of whom are bad teams. Does that give you confidence that he's our QB of the future?

Frankly, I think there are more teams than that. In addition to the teams above (and I think he would win the Ravens job), I think that in an open competition he would win the starting job for the Jets, Titans, possibly Broncos, Raiders, Redskins, Lions, probably Packers, Panthers, possibly Buccaneers, and Cardinals. There are some other jobs that he might be able to win as well (Jaguars, Browns, Chargers) even though the QB's are pretty set in their job. Hell, at this point, I think I'd take him over Eli Manning.

But most of these teams are too tied to their current starter to really open up that competition.

But that's my opinion on how good Matt is. You obviously don't agree. Especially if you don't think he'd win the Baltimore job outright. I don't think it would even be a competition.

Lucky
03-21-2008, 02:19 PM
maddogmrb, let's put this to rest. Do you really believe that Smith & Kubiak would entertain offers for Schaub? I said would, not should. If you don't believe that, then your question is moot. The question is, trade Sage or not?

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 02:20 PM
Minnesota: He could probably beat out T. Jackson but, it might be closer than you think because Jackson is really growing into the position. Here, I say he probably would start.

Miami: Yes, I agree.

Atlanta: Yes, I agree.

Chicago: Yes, I agree.

KC: Yes, I agree.

Baltimore: I think he would have a hard time beating out Kyle Boller and Troy Smith looked pretty good at the end of the year, too. So, I'm gonna say doubtful here.

Buffalo: Maybe.

So, of all the teams in the NFL, he MIGHT start for 5, all of whom are bad teams. Does that give you confidence that he's our QB of the future?

I think he is better then some other QBs, but he would not start for those teams due to investment in their current Qbs, both $ and draft pick wise.

I would take Schaub over VY, the Lienart/whats fis face combo in Az, Russel in Oak, Kitna in Det, maybe Bulger in StL.

Sage ould probably only beat out Jackosn in Minn (who washorrific last year).

As for Schaub not beating out Boller...wtf are you smoking. Car v Boller would be a close race, Schaub (and Sage) are both better then that bust.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:21 PM
Minnesota: He could probably beat out T. Jackson but, it might be closer than you think because Jackson is really growing into the position. Here, I say he probably would start.

Miami: Yes, I agree.

Atlanta: Yes, I agree.

Chicago: Yes, I agree.

KC: Yes, I agree.

Baltimore: I think he would have a hard time beating out Kyle Boller and Troy Smith looked pretty good at the end of the year, too. So, I'm gonna say doubtful here.

Buffalo: Maybe.

So, of all the teams in the NFL, he MIGHT start for 5, all of whom are bad teams. Does that give you confidence that he's our QB of the future?

Also, I feel exactly the same about Sage. So, if they are that close, why not trade Schaub and get more picks we can use?

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:24 PM
maddogmrb, let's put this to rest. Do you really believe that Smith & Kubiak would entertain offers for Schaub? I said would, not should. If you don't believe that, then your question is moot. The question is, trade Sage or not?

What? You don't think they're going to read this thread and change their minds? You mean, we're not the collective VP of Player Personnel?

Errant Hothy
03-21-2008, 02:24 PM
Also, I feel exactly the same about Sage. So, if they are that close, why not trade Schaub and get more picks we can use?

Because you are one of the few people in all of the universe that fells this way, that's why.

maddogmrb
03-21-2008, 02:26 PM
Everybody ...... have a blessed Easter and meditate on this topic over the weekend!

:texflag:

Ole Miss Texan
03-21-2008, 02:26 PM
I don't disagree with you but, I think that's a problem. Not that Schaub is our starter but, that he was ORDAINED the starter without having to compete for the job. What has he done to be called a "franchise" QB?

My other point is that, if our 2 QBs are pretty similar in capability (which stats and victories show they are) and neither one is a proven starter, and neither one may really be our QB of the future, why not trade the one who has more value?

Players are ORDAINED the starter without having to compete for the job on every team every year. Schaub showed enough to Kubiak/Smith to convince them to trade for him and make him our QB.

I also feel that Schaub is a much better quarterback than Rosenfels. I think he's much more capable and has much more upside than Sage does.

It'd be like drafting LT Chris Williams at #18. He comes in and is ORDAINED the long-term starter. He and Salaam both play the LT spot throughout the year and Williams is marginally better if at all than Salaam. We would be able to get more for Williams than Salaam in a trade- Would you like to trade him away just because he didn't perform THAT much better in his first year on the team?

Texan_Bill
03-21-2008, 02:28 PM
Everybody ...... have a blessed Easter and meditate on this topic over the weekend!

:texflag:

Happy Easter to you as well!!


*************************************************


:user: Mods, please lock, delete and burn this thread.....

Ole Miss Texan
03-21-2008, 02:28 PM
Everybody ...... have a blessed Easter and meditate on this topic over the weekend!

:texflag:

No offense, but I probably will never think about trading Schaub away and keeping Sage as our Franchise QB ever again. :)

Vinny
03-21-2008, 02:30 PM
And Schaub has PROVEN that he is not "Gifford Neilson/Commander Cody/Frank Reich.....a guy that is good enough to step in short term but not good enough to play at a high level for the long haul"?? Actually, that argument fits Schaub much more at this point because of his durability issues.He looked good to me, but then again I was one of the few Carr haters early on when you guys told me I had to be smoking something.

ArlingtonTexan
03-21-2008, 02:34 PM
And Schaub has PROVEN that he is not "Gifford Neilson/Commander Cody/Frank Reich.....a guy that is good enough to step in short term but not good enough to play at a high level for the long haul"?? Actually, that argument fits Schaub much more at this point because of his durability issues.

Trades and nfl value are often more a component perception of potential and cost than what a player has proven. In this case, the cost element is vital. Schaub's contract would limit trade value although the belief is that he has more potential. On the market now because of his contract the Texans could not get what they paid for him.

Rosenfels on the other hand is a tradeable asset because he has a low end contract and the texans did not have any drafts are extensive time developing him as the number 1.

Even if Schaub can draw more on the open market and maybe never plays any better than Sage does right now, that does not make him a sellable asset. It is not totally "fair" but the business side of this situation is what makes the trading of Schuab irrelevant.

infantrycak
03-21-2008, 02:37 PM
So, if they are that close...

There is an IF in there that isn't fulfilled because heads up they aren't that close.

With AJ in the game:

Schaub: 3-1 record, 79-119 (66.4%), 250 ypg, 7 TD, 3 INT
Rosenfels: 3-2 record, 93-147 (63.3%), 191 ypg, 8 TD, 6 INT

That's 60 extra yards of passing per game, as high a TD rate and a significantly lower INT rate.