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CloakNNNdagger
02-29-2008, 08:57 PM
So.. are you for or against a trade or not?


Unquestionably against the trade.............until proven otherwise, I feel that Sage still has the potential to end up the Texans' best long term starter. He was on a roll the second half of last season.......let him prove that he is only a "flash in the pan".........if he outplays Schaub in preseason, give him the chance to prove that he can sustain the performance we are looking for out of our QB.

hollywood_texan
02-29-2008, 09:04 PM
Unquestionably against the trade.............until proven otherwise, I feel that Sage still has the potential to end up the Texans' best long term starter. He was on a roll the second half of last season.......let him prove that he is only a "flash in the pan".........if he outplays Schaub in preseason, give him the chance to prove that he can sustain the performance we are looking for out of our QB.

Then the Schaub trade was pointless.

It's amazing the investment and effort the Texans have made for the QB position with very little return.

If your concerns about Schaub are right, Rosenfels as the backup QB or starter, it really doesn't matter. The Texans are still the doormat of the AFC South...

There are just too many holes on this team and without a quality/durable QB to make a difference.

Errant Hothy
02-29-2008, 09:13 PM
Unquestionably against the trade.............until proven otherwise, I feel that Sage still has the potential to end up the Texans' best long term starter. He was on a roll the second half of last season.......let him prove that he is only a "flash in the pan".........if he outplays Schaub in preseason, give him the chance to prove that he can sustain the performance we are looking for out of our QB.

Hasn't his career already proven that he is a "flash in the pan"?

The Chargers had Brees and Rivers, what did they end with when Brees left?

The Titans got a 6th or 7th, I can't recall, for Volek; who was considered one of the better back-ups at the time.

Garcia has been a better back-up and starter then Sage, and yet I don't think any team has every received a draft pick when he left.

To the Texans, I would have to believe a third pick in the Top 100 woud benefit the team more then Sage.

Joe Texan
02-29-2008, 09:32 PM
Like I said earlier. If Sage is at the helm, we're not making the playoffs. To the Texans, I would have to believe a third pick in the Top 100 woud benefit the team more then Sage.
22 Minutes Ago 09:04 PM
If your concerns about Schaub are right, Rosenfels as the backup QB or starter, it really doesn't matter. The Texans are still the doormat of the AFC South...


Sounds like you guys just want to be heard

Sage is too valuable to let go for a 3, even a late 2

He is a back up that can jump right in and start for any team. If a team has a hole then they will pony up a 1st to get at Sage.
Vikes just trying to get over on us and i do believe our front office is too smart to bite on that puny worm like the above quoted people did

GP
02-29-2008, 09:34 PM
Absolutely NOT

Sage is a Texan and a Great Back up who should be starting. We should have left Schaub with the dirty birds but now we have two great QB's. Mrs. Schaub gets hit in the pinky and we need Sage more than any pick so NO WAY.

I sure am glad all you Boneheads who say do the deal are just that, Boneheads

Great post.

I am sick and tired of the "The hits Schaub took would take ANY Qb out...it's not fair to say Schaub is fragile..." arguments are weak.

Sage knows how to slide around in the pocket, step up just enough to get the pass off, or just t o let the darn thing go PERIOD. Schaub is killing himself, he's trying too hard too early. He's looking like a guy who is pushing too much and he's paying a HUGE price for it.

We DO have a QB controversy. People need to stop pretending this is a one QB team. That ended when David Carr got cut.

was385
02-29-2008, 10:04 PM
The Texans are going to have to make a gamble on this one. Sure, trading Sage leaves us in a lot more valuable position without that great backup behind Schaub, but at the same time, with one of them starting and one of them on the bench, this team isn't going forward. If we can snag a second rounder for Sage, you gotta do it. That pick allows the Texans to fill another big hole on this team, whether it be in the backfield, on the line, or in the secondary, and then you just gotta pray that Schaub stays healthy. This team has too many holes to sit on a valuable QB like this and have him riding the bench.

Texanmike02
02-29-2008, 10:06 PM
Sounds like you guys just want to be heard

Sage is too valuable to let go for a 3, even a late 2

He is a back up that can jump right in and start for any team. If a team has a hole then they will pony up a 1st to get at Sage.
Vikes just trying to get over on us and i do believe our front office is too smart to bite on that puny worm like the above quoted people did

Joe give me a break. I just want to be heard? I'm as passionate about this as anyone, and to be quite honest... I just have an opinion:cool: . I don't think Sage is good enough to get us to the playoffs. If GK or RS thought he was the we probably wouldn't have done the Schaub deal in the first place. Schaub and Sage are very similar right now if you ask me. The difference though, is that Schaub hasn't his his ceiling yet... I don't think he's come close to it. Sage has. If we wind up with the same QB play this year that we got last year then we won't make the playoffs. Sage is going to be the same. Hopefully Matt shows some improvement. Now if the front office is doing this to get more value out of Sage, then hell yes, I'm all for it. But if I get my choice between a guy who might see the field next year as a starter, and a guy who might wind up on the bench all season.... well you know what I'm going to say.

Mike

steelbtexan
02-29-2008, 10:19 PM
If we could trade Sage for a 3rd & used it to pick up Lito Sheppard how would the board feel about this?

I think I would breathe hard & make the trade.

Errant Hothy
02-29-2008, 10:22 PM
What do D. Anderson, B. Roethlisberger, T. Brady, P. Manning, E. Manning, T. Romo, B. Favre, M. Hasselback, and P. Rivers all have in common?

Well beside leading their teams to better recods then the Texans finished with, none of them missed a game due to injury.

Of the 12 playoff QBs, only 3 miseed playing time to an injury. Todd Collins was the onlu back-up to actual play in the playoffs.

So whats the moral of this post, playoff caliber teams do not rely on their back-up QBs to get them to the playoffs. So if y'all think the Texans are ready to challenge for a playoff spot, then why would the need to rely on Sage to get them their.

And Joe, if anybody on this board loves to read their own words more then you...I have not come across them yet.

Texanmike02
02-29-2008, 10:23 PM
What do D. Anderson, B. Roethlisberger, T. Brady, P. Manning, E. Manning, T. Romo, B. Favre, M. Hasselback, and P. Rivers all have in common?

Well beside leading their teams to better recods then the Texans finished with, none of them missed a game due to injury.

Of the 12 playoff QBs, only 3 miseed playing time to an injury. Todd Collins was the onlu back-up to actual play in the playoffs.

So whats the moral of this post, playoff caliber teams do not rely on their back-up QBs to get them to the playoffs. So if y'all think the Texans are ready to challenge for a playoff spot, then why would the need to rely on Sage to get them their.

And Joe, if anybody on this board loves to read their own words more then you...I have not come across them yet.


I did a thing with the numbers for the last 10 years (prior to this season) and it was astonishing the number of QB's that missed fewer than 2 games to make the playoffs vs those that started 14 or fewer. I'll look and see if I can find it... or I'll do it again.

Mike

HoustonFrog
02-29-2008, 10:47 PM
Great post.

I am sick and tired of the "The hits Schaub took would take ANY Qb out...it's not fair to say Schaub is fragile..." arguments are weak.

Sage knows how to slide around in the pocket, step up just enough to get the pass off, or just t o let the darn thing go PERIOD. Schaub is killing himself, he's trying too hard too early. He's looking like a guy who is pushing too much and he's paying a HUGE price for it.

We DO have a QB controversy. People need to stop pretending this is a one QB team. That ended when David Carr got cut.

No we don't. I thought people had finally talked some sense into people after the last couple of games. Sage is not a starter and won't be our starter unless there is an ijury...period.

b0ng
02-29-2008, 10:57 PM
No we don't. I thought people had finally talked some sense into people after the last couple of games. Sage is not a starter and won't be our starter unless there is an ijury...period.

"Whichever QB throws the most INT's in one season wins. Readysetgo!"

I mean, if we're going to have a made up QB controversey, might as well take it to the most ludicrous extreme we can.

J-Russ
02-29-2008, 11:09 PM
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:50PM
Though the Texans have faith in backup Sage Rosenfels, there's no doubt Matt Schaub is the starter when healthy
Let's recap: No QB quandary

By DALE ROBERTSON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Further, Schaub's backup, Sage Rosenfels, created a measure of dissonance by emerging as a player to be taken seriously in debates about who should start next season.

Statistically, Rosenfels has delivered a better year, throwing for 14 touchdown passes to Schaub's nine despite significantly less playing time. Schaub's turnovers — nine interceptions plus three fumbles are a source of concern, too.

"He's got to protect the ball better," coach Gary Kubiak said.

Matt's still the man
Nonetheless, Kubiak and Schaub's teammates seem to be in full agreement that Schaub has done nothing to lose his grip on the team's reins because his body hasn't been overly protected, either. Matt's still the man, they say.

"Everybody knows Matt Schaub is our starting quarterback," guard Chester Pitts said. "We know Sage is the real deal, too. Any doubts anybody might have had about him are gone."

Star receiver Andre Johnson insisted: "There's no (quarterback) controversy here. Everyone gets on real well, including Matt and Sage with each other. We don't have any cliques. Everyone is on the same page."

Kubiak said he is only disappointed in Schaub's season becoming abbreviated, not in what the former Atlanta Falcon showed when he was healthy.

"I expected a lot from Matt," he said. "Just from being with him early in training camp I thought he would play well, which he did. And he continued to play well with injuries around him. We just have to get him out there for 16 weeks."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5407815.html

Article I found from awhile back...

CloakNNNdagger
02-29-2008, 11:18 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5407815.html

Article I found from awhile back...

................And what would you expect them to say publicly??

b0ng
03-01-2008, 12:06 AM
................And what would you expect them to say publicly??

"Whomever plays the best in preseason and training camp will be our day 1 starter, book it."

Seriously, it's grasping at straws when you're trying to convince people that what they say is not what they mean. If Sage plays his way into the starting role then great, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Schaub hasn't shown enough negatives to lose the starting job, and Sage hasn't shown enough positives to win it.

mussop
03-01-2008, 01:10 AM
Of course, there are examples that support 2 qbs:

NYGiants in 91- Simms, Hostetler
Pittsburgh- Kordell and ODonnell, Batch and Rothlisburger
KC- Trent Green and what's his name
Phillie- McNabb and Feeley, Detmer
St Louis- Warner and Green


that's off the top of my head. I also think there may still be some long term doubt as to how Schaub will pan out. And, both contracts are up in '09... So, I think they'll be careful about losing Sage under they are sure of Schaub's durability. Sage did after all go 4-1 in 5 starts, not to mention what he almost did in the Tennessee game. He's a great bargain for us.

Montanna and Young.

Ole Miss Texan
03-01-2008, 01:18 AM
It's Schaub's job to lose... end of story.

The Pencil Neck
03-01-2008, 01:26 AM
Of course, there are examples that support 2 qbs:

NYGiants in 91- Simms, Hostetler
Pittsburgh- Kordell and ODonnell, Batch and Rothlisburger
KC- Trent Green and what's his name
Phillie- McNabb and Feeley, Detmer
St Louis- Warner and Green


that's off the top of my head.

The first one that came to my mind was the Dolphin's perfect season and the second was the year the Ravens won with Dilfer and Banks starting.

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 01:47 AM
Big Ben says that experience isnt the only thing that matters.

Oooh don't go there.

"Big Ben" was the beneficiary of a stout running game and a strong defense.
We're working on the strong defense but we're quite a bit away from a "stout running game".

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 02:14 AM
If we could trade Sage for a 3rd & used it to pick up Lito Sheppard how would the board feel about this?

I think I would breathe hard & make the trade.

Verrrry interesting....
IF we had absolute confirmation from the Iggles that they'd do the Lito Sheppard for our 3rd round pick deal, I might have to think about that for a bit....

Texanmike02
03-01-2008, 03:44 AM
Montanna and Young.

that is PRE-CAP era. The game has changed now. There is always the chance that you have a star lurking on your bench. Bledsoe-brady is the best example but your chances decrease significantly. Its not like Sage is going to become Manning next week. Wow.

I'm always amazed at how people I usually hold in high regard completely throw logic out the window. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. That doesn't mean that you should try to be the exception and think that gives you the best shot at winning.

Mike

gafftop
03-01-2008, 07:00 AM
Do you think anybody would make the deal we made to get Schaub now??
Could we get (2) 2nds and move up in the first round if we traded Schaub now? Would you do this? I would in a heartbeat, but I know there is no one out there that would do this. Why did we??? I think we could have gotten him for a lot less. Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round??

PHAROAH
03-01-2008, 07:41 AM
Verrrry interesting....
IF we had absolute confirmation from the Iggles that they'd do the Lito Sheppard for our 3rd round pick deal, I might have to think about that for a bit....I would do that in a heartbeat Sage is mediocre and played good in a back up role and that's all he is a back up so get something while his stock is up.

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 08:32 AM
Do you think anybody would make the deal we made to get Schaub now??
Could we get (2) 2nds and move up in the first round if we traded Schaub now? Would you do this? I would in a heartbeat, but I know there is no one out there that would do this. Why did we??? I think we could have gotten him for a lot less. Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round??

Hmmmm, had we not made that deal in early 07, Schaub would have played out the year in Atlanta since Vick spent the season on suspension. And given that Vick is still a current resident of Hotel Fed, I doubt Schaub would even be available. God <<shudder>> we might be the ones stuck with Joey Harrington.

Why did we? that's a rhetorical question, right?

Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round?? Would I do it today? No. I know what I have in Schaub and I like it. And if we do that deal today, we have no starter (or quality back-up assuming Rosenfels starts) so we'd have to turn around and give up what we just dealt for to get an equal value replacement. IMHO, there are no stud QBs in this draft. Hell, I'd argue there really weren't any in last year's draft (and no, I'm not sold on Brady Quinn). If you make that deal today, you've weakened the team, not made it better.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 09:38 AM
It's Schaub's job to lose... end of story.

IMO, that's the problem. He was ANNOINTED the starter upon the trade without any real history to warrant it. Sage had better stats and better wins last year but, Schaub is still the starter? Shouldn't the coaches, team, and fans want the QB out there who gives them the best chance to win .... whichever one that is?
:fans:

GP
03-01-2008, 09:40 AM
No we don't. I thought people had finally talked some sense into people after the last couple of games. Sage is not a starter and won't be our starter unless there is an ijury...period.

Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 09:42 AM
Do you think anybody would make the deal we made to get Schaub now??
Could we get (2) 2nds and move up in the first round if we traded Schaub now? Would you do this? I would in a heartbeat, but I know there is no one out there that would do this. Why did we??? I think we could have gotten him for a lot less. Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round??

I think ObsiWan missed the point. I don't believe there is another team in the league that would give us 2-2nd round picks and change places in the 1st round for Schaub now, and I don't think anyone else would've done it when we made the trade ...... we were just desperate. Okay, name me one other #2 QB in the league right now that you would give up what we did for Schaub.
:cool:

GP
03-01-2008, 09:46 AM
IMO, that's the problem. He was ANNOINTED the starter upon the trade without any real history to warrant it. Sage had better stats and better wins last year but, Schaub is still the starter? Shouldn't the coaches, team, and fans want the QB out there who gives them the best chance to win .... whichever one that is?
:fans:

Careful now. You're approaching reason and logic. Back away now unless you want to be painted as a moron and put on ignore lists.

I agree with your post. And found it funny that you were posting this at the same time. You said what I said, but in less words. Nicely done.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 09:53 AM
Careful now. You're approaching reason and logic. Back away now unless you want to be painted as a moron and put on ignore lists.

I agree with your post. And found it funny that you were posting this at the same time. You said what I said, but in less words. Nicely done.

GP, I was "painted" last year when I opposed the trade and said we gave up too much and when I said (as I am this year) that to be a "complete" team we need to be more aggressive in free agency - which it appears, even with more cap space, we are once again taking a passive approach.
:texflag:

CloakNNNdagger
03-01-2008, 10:00 AM
GP, I tried give you rep but must spread. :aggressive:

GP
03-01-2008, 10:00 AM
GP, I was "painted" last year when I opposed the trade and said we gave up too much and when I said (as I am this year) that to be a "complete" team we need to be more aggressive in free agency - which it appears, even with more cap space, we are once again taking a passive approach.
:texflag:

And I also said last year "I don't think McNair is in this to really challenge for a title. I think he's a 'business owner' who watches the bottom line and desires to keep this franchise as profitable as possible. We're the LA Clippers of the NFL."

For that, I was roasted and flamed to no end: "How dare you accuse the guy who brought NFL back to Houston as someone who doesn't want to win?!"

My response was: Well, let's see how much of this HUGE cap space we'll actually use. Clock is ticking...

I'm not a troll, but I've been painted as one. I just have no ability to go along with the majority anymore. We're better than we were before Kubiak and Smith. But we have a looooooong way to go.

Elevating Schaub to the throne is not in the overall best interests of this team, especially as we look at our recent past history with this sort of thinking. It's just not. True competition is what helps a team get BETTER.

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 10:02 AM
IMO, that's the problem. He was ANNOINTED the starter upon the trade without any real history to warrant it. Sage had better stats and better wins last year but, Schaub is still the starter? Shouldn't the coaches, team, and fans want the QB out there who gives them the best chance to win .... whichever one that is?
:fans:


Yup, Sage's 12 INTs were sure better then Schaub's 9...right?

GP
03-01-2008, 10:07 AM
GP, I tried give you rep but must spread. :aggressive:

Well, you and probably one other poster has actually been brave enough to come out and agree/understand what I have been thinking and posting.

For this supposedly being an "opinion" board...I am laughing at how little tolerance the majority of posters have for things that go against them. HoustonFrog is a guy who relentlessly tracks me down and even gets personal with me (in his responses to my posts). And then others follow suit and pile onto me. Makes a guy feel like he's really welcomed around here!

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position. Period.

GP
03-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Yup, Sage's 12 INTs were sure better then Schaub's 9...right?

We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

otisbean
03-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Yup, Sage's 12 INTs were sure better then Schaub's 9...right?

Additionally, he threw multiple balls that should have been picked off but the opposing DBs dropped. You can also argue that Schaub didn't get the benefit of AJs services which would have undoubtedly improved his stats. I like Sage and I think he is a good backup but I would trade him in a heartbeat for the right deal. Then I would go the Bucs and trade a low pick for one of the 37 QBs as my back up or try to draft Dixon in the late rounds. I think his knee injury is going to push him down in the draft quite a bit.

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 10:13 AM
We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.


If they had equal time against the opposing 1st team Ds, and the coaches said that Sage was the better option..I would absolutly support him.

If the FO staff said that moving Sage for a draft pick was the best move for the team, would you support the move?

otisbean
03-01-2008, 10:15 AM
And I also said last year "I don't think McNair is in this to really challenge for a title. I think he's a 'business owner' who watches the bottom line and desires to keep this franchise as profitable as possible. We're the LA Clippers of the NFL."

For that, I was roasted and flamed to no end: "How dare you accuse the guy who brought NFL back to Houston as someone who doesn't want to win?!"

My response was: Well, let's see how much of this HUGE cap space we'll actually use. Clock is ticking...

I'm not a troll, but I've been painted as one. I just have no ability to go along with the majority anymore. We're better than we were before Kubiak and Smith. But we have a looooooong way to go.

Elevating Schaub to the throne is not in the overall best interests of this team, especially as we look at our recent past history with this sort of thinking. It's just not. True competition is what helps a team get BETTER.

History has shown that you have to be careful with cap space. Lots of teams have spent big $$$ with little to no results - SF, Wash, ect...

I don't think using cap space is the determining factor for the owner being dedicated to winning. He let Kubes get rid of Carr and I believe that cost us some money. He let Casserly spend quite a bit during FA (of course most of it was spent unwisely). I think Mc Nair is one of the better owners.

As far as Schaub be anointed as starting QB I think he has definitely looked better then Sage. Comparing Stats isn't fair because the majority of Schaub's games came with out the services of AJ.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 10:16 AM
Additionally, he threw multiple balls that should have been picked off but the opposing DBs dropped. You can also argue that Schaub didn't get the benefit of AJs services which would have undoubtedly improved his stats. I like Sage and I think he is a good backup but I would trade him in a heartbeat for the right deal. Then I would go the Bucs and trade a low pick for one of the 37 QBs as my back up or try to draft Dixon in the late rounds. I think his knee injury is going to push him down in the draft quite a bit.

So, if we had traded Sage last year and brought in Zabranski or whatever other no-name we had on the practice squad when Schaub went down, we would have finished 8-8 and been optomistic about this year.... right? WRONG!
:wild:

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 10:22 AM
So, if we had traded Sage last year and brought in Zabranski or whatever other no-name we had on the practice squad when Schaub went down, we would have finished 8-8 and been optomistic about this year.... right? WRONG!
:wild:

If we had traded Sage last year, do you really think that Kubiak would have relied on a rookie to be his back-up? I quess we've already answered this question inyour post.

They would have signed another veteran to be the back-up, just like they can if they trade Sage this year.

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I think ObsiWan missed the point. I don't believe there is another team in the league that would give us 2-2nd round picks and change places in the 1st round for Schaub now, and I don't think anyone else would've done it when we made the trade ...... we were just desperate. Okay, name me one other #2 QB in the league right now that you would give up what we did for Schaub.
:cool:

No argument there.
I'm convinced that the reason we made the deal for Schaub was Sage's hand injury. If Sage had been healthy during the last month of the 06 season, Kubiak would have benched Carr to see what he had in Rosenfels. And I would be willing to bet that Sage would have won the #1 QB job.

And regarding your last statement, no #2 QB in the league today is as good as Schaub. So none of them are worth what Schaub was worth.

Maaaybe Kurt Warner. But if you think Schaub is fragile....

Cleo Lemon is probably the next best back-up. And you see how quick Del Rio snapped him up when he became available.

Tell ya what, gimme your list of #2s that are as good as Schaub then we'll talk about what they're worth. Remember, for this to be an apples-to-apples comparison, this #2 has to be ready to step in and start. That's what we were looking for when we dealt for Schaub.

ChampionTexan
03-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Do you think anybody would make the deal we made to get Schaub now??
Could we get (2) 2nds and move up in the first round if we traded Schaub now? Would you do this? I would in a heartbeat, but I know there is no one out there that would do this. Why did we??? I think we could have gotten him for a lot less. Would you trade Schaub for (2) 2nds and a better position in the 1st round??

First off, I don't know what we could get for Schaub, and I'm not here to say he's the next great (or even really, really good) QB, because I don't know that either. But, it's a little unfair to ask one year later what could we get for him, since given the fact that the Texans weren't a playoff team in '07, and it was Schaub's first year as a full-time starter, it's not surprising if his stock has dropped. The majority of QB's don't live up to the hype in their first year of starting, and while Schaub certainly hasn't lived up to our elevated hopes so far, I saw some flashes of potential over his 11 games that I didn't see over Carr's five years. I also saw a couple of things that concerned me, and will be anxiously watching next year to see how year two goes. Look at Mario after year one and now. As we are more than aware, there were a whole bunch of people saying about Mario last year what you appear to be saying about Schaub now. I also think that even at this point, if Atlanta had it to do over again, there's no way they'd make the same deal now.

As to whether we could have gotten him for alot less - well, I'm pretty sure they tried, and didn't just give the Falcons whatever their first offer consisted of, but this is a trade that if Schaub's successful (Which for lack of a better measuring stick, I'll define as being a Top 10 NFL QB) will be more than worth it at twice what they paid. If Schaub's not successful, trading a 5th round pick for him would have been overpaying.

As much as most of us don't like it, and as much as it reminds us of an extremely painful (and unsuccessful) similar situation, the reality is that you can't determine if this was a good trade for at least another year - probably two (but maybe we've at least learned it shouldn't take five).

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 10:52 AM
Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

GP, do you have selctive memory considering the made up facts you posted at the end of last season and all of the trash you talked that was disputed. Are you son of Hulk, brother of Sage?Seriously. I don't get where you are coming from. Its like you recharged your batteries and decided Sage needed help again.

Look at the bolded above. How did he save the season?He threw more ints in limited time. This kept teams in games. Teammates said Schaub was a leader and he didnt have AJ in starts. Yet he was Top 10 in 8 categories up until his injuries.

Sage is not a starter in the league. He isn't our starter or they wouldn't be entertaining trades. Sorry, you are wrong...again.

Brando
03-01-2008, 11:04 AM
Also, the Vikings are still asking the Houston Texans about backup quarterback Sage Rosenfels. The Texans, though, won't consider a deal, unless the stakes include at least a second-round pick. With longstanding issues at quarterback — David Carr, a former No. 1 pick, was a major disappointment — the Texans are content with Rosenfels as a backup to Matt Schaub.

Rosenfels would be a solid backup in the event starter Tarvaris Jackson struggles at training camp or early in the season. Rosenfels was 4-1 as a starter last season when Schaub was hurt.

In addition, Cleo Lemon, Josh McCown and Billy Volek no longer are available.

"If there's something out there that we think can help our roster, whether it comes through trade or this free agency or if we wait until the draft to address it . . .," Spielman said, noting that the club has nine draft picks, including two in the third round. "Hopefully, we'll have the same success as we did last year."

twincity.com (http://www.twincities.com/ci_8414295?source=most_viewed)

Specnatz
03-01-2008, 11:33 AM
Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

From what I can tell no one is really trashing you they think you logic is flawed and they make point to suggest that, just like I am about to do.

When Coach Kubiak says Schuab is our starting QB, that means we have a starter and a backup period. There is no debate, there is no lets see which one wins, it is Schuab is the starting QB. As far as you saying that as soon as a Coach says there is no Qb controversy then there is one, is kinda silly. what is Kubiak suppossed to do ignore John McLame asking retarded questions he can use in his next music video. If the question is asked even if it is not relavent it has to be answered.

I am not sure who these a lot of Falcons fans are that you are referring to that said Matt was to slow and that he was not worth the trade, but if you had gone to their message board you would have seen a lot of fans saying the traded the wrong QB. Now saying Matt is not mobile enough is kinda hard to determine, because he is more mobile than Payton Manning about equal to Tom Brady and no where near as mobile as Bret Favre and Tony Romo.

On this board you are going to get people who think they know more than they do, you get some all they do is rant and others who actually no a great deal about each position. When you make points expect them to be picked apart worse than a dead carcas on the side of the road.

steelbtexan
03-01-2008, 12:30 PM
I think Mr. McNair wants to win & make money ala New England.

Atl. has 2 2nd rd. picks, I'm sure we could trade Schaub back to them.

I wouldn't do this trade although I'm sure some on this board would.

I trust RS & Kubes judgement more than GP's, CND's & Maddogs

KUBES has been playing or coaching QB's professionally for 25 years?

CloakNNNdagger
03-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

TexansSeminole
03-01-2008, 12:40 PM
We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

Are you still lobbying for Sage as the starter.

My god, give it a break. It's like Hulk75 trying to get us to beleive that Carr doesn't suck.

Kaiser Toro
03-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Some say collegiate all-star games, combines, pro days and the draft bridge our want for more football. Not me I like to be front and center for this Theater of the Absurd. Anything can happen, anything can be said and everyone has an opinion. :popcorn:

Lastly, Sage is a back up QB. Dispute the facts, dispute the historicals, dispute the investment made, dispute what the market will bear for each QB, but understand that a healthy Schaub is our starter.

Kaiser Toro
03-01-2008, 12:49 PM
Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

Sure that is a possibility, but much less than trying to get a second round pick to help the team.

Brando
03-01-2008, 12:51 PM
Some say collegiate all-star games, combines, pro days and the draft bridge our want for more football. Not me I like to be front and center for this Theater of the Absurd. Anything can happen, anything can be said and everyone has an opinion. :popcorn:

Lastly, Sage is a back up QB. Dispute the facts, dispute the historicals, dispute the investment made, dispute what the market will bear for each QB, but understand that a healthy Schaub is our starter.

Yes he is. A good back up to have but Schaub is our starter. If Minnesota is trading for him to be a back up to Jackson that should close the case.

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 01:06 PM
Has anyone given thought to the possibility that the FO is trying to establish a possible offer value for if they wish to resign Sage for the long term, possibly as a starter, depending on how the upsoming season shakes out?

Sure, but if Minnesota is going to offer a 3rd or better, then Sage's contract is below what his value might be (to a team like Minnesota). If I'm the Texans I don't even think about re-working his deal now...it would only lead to an increase in his cost against the cap. If Sage and his agent feel this way, he could be a camp hold-out (mad about either the money or missing a chance to truly compete for a starting gig).

Nighthawk
03-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Yes we do.

Of the two QBs we have right now, we don't have a definitive starter.

We have two backups who are on the verge of being a starter. Schaub was not a starting QB with years of starting experience when we traded for him. People are PRETENDING that we acquired a starter in Matt Schaub. We didn't.

We speculated that he could start. A lot of Falcons fans tried to tell us he wouldn't be mobile enough...and we sorta' laughed them off. I see a guy who played the first game and looked sharp getting away from center--crisp steps, good footwork--and then he just began to slow down and the pass rush was on him wayyyy to quickly over the next few games.

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

If anything makes me laugh, it's the "games" we play--and the games coaches play--when the proverbial "We don't have a QB controversy" comments start rolling out. As soon as THOSE comments start rolling out, then you absolutely 100% know you have a competition going on. You don't hear the words "QB controversy" in Indy or New England...it's not even in the dictionary in those two places.

When you have to openly "deny" that there's a QB controversy...there IS one. Period.

Geesh, I'd think that Texans fans wouldn't care WHO started as long as it was the MAN who deserved to have the gig. After 5 years of David Carr, we kinda' need to let go of this pipe dream of being able to pencil in a starter and defend him to no end. You guys do realize that you're doing the same thing with Schaub that a lot of us (including ME) did with David?

Sitting around trashing people like me who just want SOMEONE to win the job and do it consistently, and therefore defending a backup QB like Schaub as if he's been a starter for years, is puzzling.

I am a Texans fan. Not a Sage fan. Not a Schaub fan. I think they shold battle it out. And I think there's a lot of truth to what the Titans' Haynesworth said when he said "I bet Sage would have liked to have seen some of that starting money!" We rolled the dice on Schaub, and I supported it when it happened, but I'm retreating on it...I don't think Schaub is the guy for the long term. I just don't. Out of the two backup QBs we have, I'd say they're pretty even in the race for the starting job right now.

8-8 is a lot better than 2-14. Kubiak and Smith are doing a great job. I'm glad we have Sage-Schaub to argue about...and not who our next HC shold be and why our GM is such a moron. Thank God THOSE days are gone.

This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

CloakNNNdagger
03-01-2008, 01:45 PM
Sure, but if Minnesota is going to offer a 3rd or better, then Sage's contract is below what his value might be (to a team like Minnesota). If I'm the Texans I don't even think about re-working his deal now...it would only lead to an increase in his cost against the cap. If Sage and his agent feel this way, he could be a camp hold-out (mad about either the money or missing a chance to truly compete for a starting gig).

Not now......you missed my point, or I didn't make myself clear........I meant in order to establish some sort of bench mark for comparison to the time nearing the END of this season if his performance deems him as winnning out at starter.

The Pencil Neck
03-01-2008, 01:51 PM
This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

Yeah, it was really great having Sage be able to come in and take over for Carr a couple of years ago.

Oh.

Wait.

Sage was injured and we had to pick up Bradlee Van Pelt.

Nevermind.

dalemurphy
03-01-2008, 01:53 PM
Of all the NFL fans, I would think Texan fans could appreciate depth at a position. We've had so many injuries isn't it comforting to know that we have 2 qbs that we can win with? Believe me, I'm the first guy to lust after draft picks but I also understand how miserable it is to root for a team with poor QB play. With Sage and Schaub both here until after 2009, we are fairly certain to see at least solid QB play... If you take either of those guys out of the equation, you significantly change those odds- either due to injuries, regression of ability, or other unforseeable things.

Thorn
03-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Of all the NFL fans, I would think Texan fans could appreciate depth at a position. We've had so many injuries isn't it comforting to know that we have 2 qbs that we can win with? Believe me, I'm the first guy to lust after draft picks but I also understand how miserable it is to root for a team with poor QB play. With Sage and Schaub both here until after 2009, we are fairly certain to see at least solid QB play... If you take either of those guys out of the equation, you significantly change those odds- either due to injuries, regression of ability, or other unforseeable things.

I completely agree. I can’t possibly image the Texans trading Sage. This deal is like chopping off your hands to trade them for better feet.

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 02:20 PM
I have a question for all of those who are saying that Sage is too valuable to trade.

Do y'all think that the Texans will make the playoffs next season?

Becuase history shows that teams who make the playoffs, rely on their starter to get them their, not their back-up QBs.

Thorn
03-01-2008, 02:24 PM
I have a question for all of those who are saying that Sage is too valuable to trade.

Do y'all think that the Texans will make the playoffs next season?

Becuase history shows that teams who make the playoffs, rely on their starter to get them their, not their back-up QBs.


Good point. But until our "starter" proves himself to be a reliable starter, then we need Sage. Just the way it is right now.

bah007
03-01-2008, 02:25 PM
I completely agree. I can’t possibly image the Texans trading Sage. This deal is like chopping off your hands to trade them for better feet.

Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.

Thorn
03-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.

Yeah, but those backup hands……no, I better not go down that road. This is a PG13 board.

As I’ve said before, if we trade Sage it has to be multiple high picks. We have to draft a decent QB and still get value. Losing Sage is losing a proven QB that can run our offense and score points.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 02:55 PM
If they had equal time against the opposing 1st team Ds, and the coaches said that Sage was the better option..I would absolutly support him.

If the FO staff said that moving Sage for a draft pick was the best move for the team, would you support the move?

Well, if we could get 2, #2's and trade spots in round one.... yes. :thinking:

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Well, if we could get 2, #2's and trade spots in round one.... yes. :thinking:

Please stop acting like there is no difference between a career, journeyman back-up and a young back-up who has potential to be a starter.

Several NFL anylast and Front Office personnal felt that Schaub had a chance to be a very good starter in this league; none feel that way about Sage. Even the Vikings are after him for cempetition/insurance reasons for a QB who lloks completly lost at times.

maddogmrb
03-01-2008, 03:04 PM
Yes he is. A good back up to have but Schaub is our starter. If Minnesota is trading for him to be a back up to Jackson that should close the case.

Schaub and Sage would be backups to Jackson.

ObsiWan my point is that there are always VERY few backups worth what we gave up for Schaub and I don't know of any currently in the league.

Also, with as well as Sage has played, I wouldn't be surprised if the FO would trade Schaub back to the Falcons for exactly what we gave up for him. But, I'll bet ya Atlanta won't make that deal.
:texflag:

Errant Hothy
03-01-2008, 03:17 PM
Schaub and Sage would be backups to Jackson.

ObsiWan my point is that there are always VERY few backups worth what we gave up for Schaub and I don't know of any currently in the league.

Also, with as well as Sage has played, I wouldn't be surprised if the FO would trade Schaub back to the Falcons for exactly what we gave up for him. But, I'll bet ya Atlanta won't make that deal.
:texflag:

Off the top of my head,and going back over the last 3 seasons; these are the QBs you would need "Schaub like" pakages to get dealt from their teams:

Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Kevin Kolb
David Gerrard
Dereck Anderson or Brady Quinn (whomever winds up the back-up)
Phillip Rivers
Marc Bulger
Jake Delhomme
Matt Schaub

Texan in Japan
03-01-2008, 03:18 PM
I never thought much of Sage and found it curious when Kubiak was so happy we signed him. Our coaches and scouts have done a great job of IDing under appreciated talent and getting the most out of their abilities. While I'm not foaming at the mouth to trade Sage, I do believe that his value is at its peak.

If we could bring in someone like Quinn Gray to be the new #2, then trading Sage now might be a smart way to cash in on his value and add a possible starter. It's a gamble on Schuab's health and a new back-up's capability, but one that could gain us a CB, LB, OL, etc.

GP
03-01-2008, 03:19 PM
Are you still lobbying for Sage as the starter.

My god, give it a break. It's like Hulk75 trying to get us to beleive that Carr doesn't suck.

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

bah007
03-01-2008, 03:22 PM
This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow.

Frye-Anderson isnt exactly failing for the Browns right now.

If one of our guys is a Derek Anderson then we are in good shape.

Maddict5
03-01-2008, 03:23 PM
Its closer to trading your back-up pair of hands for body parts that you dont have.


i have the best body part analogy:

sage = a kidney

:splits:

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 03:24 PM
No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

Sorry GP but it is statements like that where I lose all respectability regarding a post. Not only is it not true but his INTs and the way he played the last two games doesn't show it. We went around and around with each other the last 5 weeks of the season and it seemed to sink in to you what the situation was. Its like you are ignoring it now and starting all over. There is no rationale regarding many of your thoughts. Again, I nailed you 3 times in our earlier discussions trying to make up facts that didn't exist regarding other QBs like the Browns QB, etc. I refuse to go around in circles with someone who spouts phrases like above and has shown in the past that will manufacture facts.

We can save some time and FACT responses by just rereading this thread...for anyone that cares and wants to see where GP is coming from....it is Hulk75 Part Two

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

BTW, I like Sage alot and his play at times. But he does not make a QB controversy.

GP
03-01-2008, 03:28 PM
Please stop acting like there is no difference between a career, journeyman back-up and a young back-up who has potential to be a starter.

Several NFL anylast and Front Office personnal felt that Schaub had a chance to be a very good starter in this league; none feel that way about Sage. Even the Vikings are after him for cempetition/insurance reasons for a QB who lloks completly lost at times.

Slow down a second. Don't make me pull out the thread I created toward the end of the regular season whereby I documented two different analyst crews (IIRC) who were saying that there seems to be the case for an open competition.

They watched Schaub, off and on in a casual manner, and they saw Sage handle the team in the latter part of the season. So let's not get too far ahead of ourselves and start saying that Sage is a retard or something.

You guys have Sage Hate all over yourselves!

We have two backups, bro. No need to get in a hissy over this fact. We have a starter "in name only," but not necessarily in deed/action. There are durability issues with Schaub no matter how we explain how it happened.

May the best backup win the job, IMO. And even then...things are going to happen that might thrust one guy back into the starting role again. Its not a big deal, really. But to sit here and say that Matt Schaub has nailed down the starting spot...well, I just think we have two backups right now. And I don't know that being able to say "QB X is the starter" or "QB Y is the starter" is going to really do much, IMO.

We have two backups right now. Deal wit' it.

Rex King
03-01-2008, 03:29 PM
i have the best body part analogy:

sage = a kidney

:splits:

Who's the appendix?

Maddict5
03-01-2008, 03:31 PM
black/jamar fletcher/petey. we dont really need them and we only talk about them when bad things happen

Texans_Chick
03-01-2008, 03:35 PM
Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

GP
03-01-2008, 03:35 PM
Sorry GP but it is statements like that where I lose all respectability regarding a post. Not only is it not true but his INTs and the way he played the last two games doesn't show it. We went around and around with each other the last 5 weeks of the season and it seemed to sink in to you what the situation was. Its like you are ignoring it now and starting all over. There is no rationale regarding many of your thoughts. Again, I nailed you 3 times in our earlier discussions trying to make up facts that didn't exist regarding other QBs like the Browns QB, etc. I refuse to go around in circles with someone who spouts phrases like above and has shown in the past that will manufacture facts.

We can save some time and FACT responses by just rereading this thread...for anyone that cares and wants to see where GP is coming from....it is Hulk75 Part Two

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

Let's just do each other a favor and agree right now that we're not going to like each other...nor will we be able to get along on this.

I didn't even read your reply. I saw HoustonFrog and then I saw my post quoted in its entirety, and that's all I needed. No need to read what you wrote. You hate me. I get it.

From here on out, I will be putting my argument into this abbreviated format: We have two backups.

This will save time for all of us. We don't have a true starting QB, and saying he "is" or pointing to his contract means squat to me. Think larger than that, please. You're capable of doing the analysis and looking at the two QBs for yourself: They are both backup QBs who are about neck-and-neck with each other. We didn't acquire a starting QB...geesh, how much simpler does it get than this? We SPECULATED just like any team does when it cannot get its hand on a real franchise QB such as a Peyton Manning or a John Elway, etc.

Love you, too.

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 03:36 PM
Slow down a second. Don't make me pull out the thread I created toward the end of the regular season whereby I documented two different analyst crews (IIRC) who were saying that there seems to be the case for an open competition.

They watched Schaub, off and on in a casual manner, and they saw Sage handle the team in the latter part of the season. So let's not get too far ahead of ourselves and start saying that Sage is a retard or something.

You guys have Sage Hate all over yourselves!

We have two backups, bro. No need to get in a hissy over this fact. We have a starter "in name only," but not necessarily in deed/action. There are durability issues with Schaub no matter how we explain how it happened.

May the best backup win the job, IMO. And even then...things are going to happen that might thrust one guy back into the starting role again. Its not a big deal, really. But to sit here and say that Matt Schaub has nailed down the starting spot...well, I just think we have two backups right now. And I don't know that being able to say "QB X is the starter" or "QB Y is the starter" is going to really do much, IMO.

We have two backups right now. Deal wit' it.

That is the funny part. NO ONE HATES SAGE!!

People are just being realistic about him, his playing history and where he is on our team. People know what Schaub did and they saw what Sage could andcould not do. It is random, made up, crazy assertions that drive people made. Again, reread the thread I posted on the last page. You are all over the place.

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 03:39 PM
We have two backup QBs trying to solidify a starting position.

One question: If Sage outplayed Schaub in the preseason, would you be behind him and support Sage as the starter in Game 1?

If Schaub outplayed Sage and won the gig...I'd be behind the starter.

Me too. I would like to think we all would.
None of us are married to Schaub the way people were married to D.C.
I think that includes Smithiak.

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 03:40 PM
Let's just do each other a favor and agree right now that we're not going to like each other...nor will we be able to get along on this.

I didn't even read your reply. I saw HoustonFrog and then I saw my post quoted in its entirety, and that's all I needed. No need to read what you wrote. You hate me. I get it.

From here on out, I will be putting my argument into this abbreviated format: We have two backups.

This will save time for all of us. We don't have a true starting QB, and saying he "is" or pointing to his contract means squat to me. Think larger than that, please. You're capable of doing the analysis and looking at the two QBs for yourself: They are both backup QBs who are about neck-and-neck with each other. We didn't acquire a starting QB...geesh, how much simpler does it get than this? We SPECULATED just like any team does when it cannot get its hand on a real franchise QB such as a Peyton Manning or a John Elway, etc.

Love you, too.

LOL..I don't HATE anyone on the board. It is ridiculous to hate someone I don't know and whom I'm talking football with. I DO hate trying to debate football with someone who spouts broad statements and claims they are facts. and who has done this for months on end. I'm not saying I'm right. Not even close. I'm only saying that you are blindly closed off to the reality of the situation. Again, re-read the old thread and you will see where you were so lathered up that you privately sent me a message and yelled me down in the thread saying you never mentioned a player when you talked about him 3 pages earlier. You get worked into a frenzy and you don't read what you write. We have a good sutation here. It was bad enough with Carr. Why make a problem or a team situation where there is none?

Texans_Chick
03-01-2008, 03:42 PM
This is the best assessment of our situation I've read on the board. "Two backups" says it best, though it probably has to be said that the edge right now goes to Sage for being able to stay healthy.

It is hard to evaluate the QB play of last season because of:

1. Schaub being in his first season with system.
2. Andre Johnson being out a large portion of the year.
3. The Texans' running game being ridiciously unreliable.

There's pluses and minuses to their particular abilities that you can go into, but I think particularly as it relates to Schaub, I think you have to have an incomplete for evaluation purposes.

GP
03-01-2008, 03:44 PM
Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

I thought I remember at the end of the season that Sage and/or his agent said that he was verrrry OK with staying in Houston? I wish I could remember if it was Sage in a postgame interview on the field, still suited up after a win, or if it was something someone dug up in a media interview or radio show that Sage or his agent had done...

If I'm Sage...I see (1) a wobbly Matt Schaub on the bench most of the season, and (2) I'm not hurting anywhere, and (3) I might get a shot at sticking around in a familiar atmosphere AND win the starting gig. But that's just me. Maybe Sage would seek a trade?

How many times did you see Sage instructing Schaub on the sideline, going over the notes and photos, and Schaub absorbig it all? That's due to Sage being here longer, and the guy is known for being very cerebral. And how many times have you seen Kubiak and Sage in an animated discussion on the sideline where you can see Sage motioning with his hands as he explains what he's seeing on the field?

I can say that Schaub might be able to turn the corner this next season, but I am only at about a 50% on it right now. And I don't know that Sage is the true starter either. But as we go into training camp, the thing that bothers me is that training camp tends to reward the guy who is a workout warrior (David Carr, for example) because he doesn't have guys trying to KILL HIM on every snap.

Once again, for convenience: We have two backup QBs.

GP
03-01-2008, 03:52 PM
LOL..I don't HATE anyone on the board. It is ridiculous to hate someone I don't know and whom I'm talking football with. I DO hate trying to debate footnball with someone who spouts nonsense and who has done this for months on end. I'm nto saying I'm right. Not even close. I'm only saying that you are blindly closed off to the reality of the situation. Again, re-read the old thread and you will see where you were so lathered up that you privately sent me a message and yelled me down in the thread saying you never mentioned a player when you talked about him 3 pages earlier. You get worked into a frenzy and you don't read what you write. We have a good sutation here. It was bad enough with Carr. Why make a problem or a team situation where there is none?

I admitted my mistake, but feel free to crucify me over and over for it. I usually do my homework, but I did slip on that particular situation. So sue me.

There is no "reality" to this debate because (drum roll, please...) we have two backup QBs. We can't, just by virtue, say "Well, Kubiak 'says' that Schaub is the starter, and Schaub 'is' making the big bucks...so, Schaub is the starter..."

Saying "QB X is the starter" is like saying whomever wins the pole at Daytona is always going to win the race in the end. It's a fluid situation, and I bet a HC like Kubiak (hopefully) is smart enough to go with the hot hand no matter who the starter might be.

My ire is raised when we go David Carr II and try to presume that whomever is "the starter" is just that: The Starter. I learned my lesson with how long I stuck with David Carr, trying to will him to be the QB I thought he was. Nowadays, I don't think we have a real starter.

We just have this: Two backups.

Does Sage become a true starter and play like it? Prolly not.

Does Schaub? You can say he has more upside because he hasn't been a journeyman QB like Sage has. I "get that." But I am in no way comforted with some mechanical things I see in Schaub, nor am I encouraged by his fragility.

Rex King
03-01-2008, 03:55 PM
Nevermind. Already said.

drewmar74
03-01-2008, 03:56 PM
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

And I just cannot find a way to disagree with this.

I don't have complete confidence in Schaub yet. I'm hoping that this year is better than last, but right now the jury is still out where I'm concerned which means I think there is no way that we don't have a solid backup. It would be utter stupidity to enter the season with Schaub and someone like Bradlee Van Pelt behind him.

But we do need help in a lot of areas. If we could trade Sage (which I would hate to do because I really pull for the guy) and get a second round pick and then go sign Brian Griese, well, I'd pull the trigger on that in a heartbeat.

If we can trade him and get another backup (again, Griese comes immediately to mind) who can come in and manage a game, well, let Sage go. We could use the help in other areas and heck, he might even do well starting for someone else.

Goldensilence
03-01-2008, 04:04 PM
I thought I remember at the end of the season that Sage and/or his agent said that he was verrrry OK with staying in Houston? I wish I could remember if it was Sage in a postgame interview on the field, still suited up after a win, or if it was something someone dug up in a media interview or radio show that Sage or his agent had done...

If I'm Sage...I see (1) a wobbly Matt Schaub on the bench most of the season, and (2) I'm not hurting anywhere, and (3) I might get a shot at sticking around in a familiar atmosphere AND win the starting gig. But that's just me. Maybe Sage would seek a trade?

How many times did you see Sage instructing Schaub on the sideline, going over the notes and photos, and Schaub absorbig it all? That's due to Sage being here longer, and the guy is known for being very cerebral. And how many times have you seen Kubiak and Sage in an animated discussion on the sideline where you can see Sage motioning with his hands as he explains what he's seeing on the field?

I can say that Schaub might be able to turn the corner this next season, but I am only at about a 50% on it right now. And I don't know that Sage is the true starter either. But as we go into training camp, the thing that bothers me is that training camp tends to reward the guy who is a workout warrior (David Carr, for example) because he doesn't have guys trying to KILL HIM on every snap.

Once again, for convenience: We have two backup QBs.

GP have you convienently forgotten his stints in D.C. and Miami? Or the greater # of INTS in more playing time?

No one here is busting your chops on your opinion about Sage. But at the same time i hear the Chris Chandler comparisons people should also be willing to say Cody Carlson.

Funny I don't see two back up Qbs. I see a starter and a backup. I don't see a Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck, or heck even a Derek Anderson in Sage Rosenfels.

steelbtexan
03-01-2008, 04:10 PM
GP

I like Sage but if I could trade him for a draft pick that could help us land Litto Sheppard I would do it. Sheppard is 26 years old & a former all-pro.

IMO this is a good return on the investment that is Sage.

I didn't know that you were a DC- HULK supporter. This speaks volumes to me. You do have the right to your opinion though.

Thankfully KUBES has the right to his opinion & it's the one that counts.

If KUBES thinks keeping Sage is the way to go he will keep him. If KUBES thinks trading him is the way to go thats, what he will do.
Either way is fine with me. I'm glad he's making that dcision & not you or HULK75.

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 04:21 PM
I admitted my mistake, but feel free to crucify me over and over for it. I usually do my homework, but I did slip on that particular situation. So sue me.

There is no "reality" to this debate because (drum roll, please...) we have two backup QBs. We can't, just by virtue, say "Well, Kubiak 'says' that Schaub is the starter, and Schaub 'is' making the big bucks...so, Schaub is the starter..."

Saying "QB X is the starter" is like saying whomever wins the pole at Daytona is always going to win the race in the end. It's a fluid situation, and I bet a HC like Kubiak (hopefully) is smart enough to go with the hot hand no matter who the starter might be.

My ire is raised when we go David Carr II and try to presume that whomever is "the starter" is just that: The Starter. I learned my lesson with how long I stuck with David Carr, trying to will him to be the QB I thought he was. Nowadays, I don't think we have a real starter.

We just have this: Two backups.

Does Sage become a true starter and play like it? Prolly not.

Does Schaub? You can say he has more upside because he hasn't been a journeyman QB like Sage has. I "get that." But I am in no way comforted with some mechanical things I see in Schaub, nor am I encouraged by his fragility.

Well you are getting closer but you are still making sweeping generalizations that aren't true. Schaub is the starter and he is not a backup at this time. Sage is and always has been. Schaub looked good last year but gets an incomplete because of no AJ and the injuries. I'm not going to rewrite a whole thread again but if you look at the old thread again I think I laid out the stats on page 4, etc.

http://texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45232&page=3&highlight=Sage

BTW, the reason why your chops are being busted is because of the above thread and what was contained in it and the repeat of it here. It wasn't just one mistake..just did throughout the thread and ignored the stats. We made strides last year. We have a level team that is improving. We got rid of a guy, Carr, that brought about massive opinions and split a team. We finally have things going our way and people are now hearing the same bandwagon type calls and see threads about controversy. Why make controversy where there is none?

Phrases attributed to you like:

Seeing Sage come in and rescue a season that was lloking to be flushed down the drain...well, it was a relief. The whole offense seemed to pick it up a step; there was a confidence in the huddle and on the field. Granted, Sage knows the offense and the players a lot better.

No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub),

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub

They are not only blatantly false but they have zero merit. How can anyone debate phrases like that...or who would try?That is what makes it hard. Again, not hate, we all have differenting opinions. Its what makes it fun. But it is hard to debtae when you read things like above.

GP
03-01-2008, 04:25 PM
GP

I like Sage but if I could trade him for a draft pick that could help us land Litto Sheppard I would do it. Sheppard is 26 years old & a former all-pro.

IMO this is a good return on the investment that is Sage.

I didn't know that you were a DC- HULK supporter. This speaks volumes to me. You do have the right to your opinion though.

Thankfully KUBES has the right to his opinion & it's the one that counts.

If KUBES thinks keeping Sage is the way to go he will keep him. If KUBES thinks trading him is the way to go thats, what he will do.
Either way is fine with me. I'm glad he's making that dcision & not you or HULK75.

Let me give you some background:

1. We had Dom Capers at HC, and the whole team looked bad.

2. David Carr had a game vs. Arizona where he was allowed to call the plays and lead the team. We won the game and the team looked better. I felt that maybe David was just placed in a bad situation, and that he needed at least the first season with Kubiak to be judged more fairly.

3. Second Honeymoon (a poster here) was a guy who ragged me very hard for sticking by Carr. There were a few posters here, such as Vinny, who also said that David was not "starter material." I held onto the Carr Wagon until roughly halfway through the 1st season under Kubiak. And then, it was clear that I was definitely wrong in my assumption.

4. Amid all of this, Hulk75 was arguably losing his sanity and was flaming everyone on the board, even me. I can show you some Private Messages from Hulk75 to me, and some from me to Hulk75, where you will see that I basically broke away and told him that he was nuts and not able to make sense on the topic because David was his brother. He continued to shred me on the boards, and I was done with it.

It's hard to sit here and say that I supported David Carr until almost the very end. Nobody wants to ever appear vulnerable like this...to say "I was wrong," but I am able to do it. It's part of the fun.

And here I am: Saying that I think we once again have a situation where people are propping up our "starter" as if he's golden and untouchable.

Seems a lot like the previous situation. If we could combine David's durability with Matt's brain...we'd be set. But we can't.

Thank you for at least saying "GP, it's your opinion..."

GP
03-01-2008, 04:38 PM
Frog:

1. Without Sage...if we had Van Pelt or Zabransky...we wouldn't have finished 8-8. So my opinion is that Sage DID rescue the season and at least handle things enough to get us to 8-8.

2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less. Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.

3. Making me out to be the one who is causing division amongst the troops, when we "have so much going for us right now" is absurd. You're just flat out using hyperbole now. You can't fool a Public Relations and Advertising degree holder...I see what you're doing from a mile away!

Look, you're finally talking to me like I'm a human now. Thank you. But none of what we discuss here is going to impact the team. This is an opinion board and it's about as relevant to the success of the team as a small time Star Trek covention in Wapauga, Illinois is to the success of the Star Trek brand name.

Convict me in your mind all you want. LOL. I just can feel that Schaub is not the answer, and I think it'll be settled soon.

BTW, I do not idolize Sage. Even for a Round 2 compensation, I don't think we can trade away Sage unless there's a viable backup waiting in the wings. The fact that we're even considering trading Sage makes me hope that we DO have a viable backup on the radar somewhere--Not a draft pick in this year's draft, but an actual backup with some gametime under his belt. We need Sage as much as anything else right now.

Thorn
03-01-2008, 04:38 PM
Neither Sage nor Schaub have played all 16 games as a starter in an entire season yet.

Both Sage and Schaub have had injuries.

Both Sage and Schaub are proven backups than can come in and help the team.

As of yet, neither Sage nor Schaub has proven they are a bona fide starter.

NFL pundits say Schaub has what it takes, not so many say that about Sage.

Both have won games for us.

Schaub is the starter and Sage is not and we can argue about that until the cows come home, but it doesn't change anything.

Anything I’ve left out?

Schaub may be the real deal, but he hasn't proven it yet. Until he does, I think we should hang on to Sage.

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 04:44 PM
Pluses for Sage:

Good lockerroom guy
Good leader
Good backup, says the right things.
Creates competition for Schaub
Schaub is coming off of non-throwing arm shoulder surgery. The words "shoulder surgery" strikes fear into the hearts of all Texans fans.
He knows the system
Was able to win games last year, and when he played the offense didn't become unwatchable.
A team needs lots of good fortune to get through a season without their QB getting dinged. The Texans haven't had a lot of good fortune.
Relatively cheap contract
Why turn a strength of the team into another area that is a problem. At the end of last season had Sage got hurt, we were likely going to see some atrocious football. See e.g. Jared Zabransky pre-season.
AFC South tends to have teams that carry only two QBs on the roster so that they can put other parts of the roster on the field. Better to have two viable options if you are going that way.

Negs for Sage:

May be unhappy at being a perpetual backup and may push for trade. This is something that hasn't been said, but it is possible.
He is an interception machine, hard to say he could be a game manager
Dealing him before the draft means dealing him with value.
There are other possible QBs that know Kubiak's system--Brian Griese may end up getting cut for example.
Kubiak can learn up QBs.
The Texans have tons of needs, and draft picks have value to a team that not only needs depth but better starters.

That's the key point here. We're better off, QB-wise, than we've ever been.

Unless someone is offering the farm for Sage then why screw with that??

Think about this. Minnesota has NINE picks this year. They are well under the cap. And they have a star-quality, two-headed running game.
Yet all they offered was a #3 pick. Minnesota offering one of their TWO rd 3 picks seems more like them tossing us a bone than them making a legit, good-faith offer.
They could have done much better. In my mind, they were trying to play us.
And some of you would have gone for it.

And TC, I think Sage being unhappy about being a backup is a good thing. There are two ways to remedy that situation: (1) Whine about it and ask to be traded. OR (2) Outplay the starter and earn the #1 job.

I'd like to think if Sage outplays Matt, then Sage will start.

Rex King
03-01-2008, 04:58 PM
2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less.

You're conveniently forgetting:
Against the Bucs, Sage hung onto the ball too long and fumbled. Last game he forced a throw into triple coverage that resulted in the Broncos' only TD. Even his incredible 4th quarter performance against the Tacks was necessitated by his earlier errors that resulted in 9 points, which could have easily been more. At least two of Schaub's interceptions weren't really his fault.

Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.
No. THE key injury was to McKinney and for all practical purposes Ahman Green in the 3rd game. The running game went downhill from there. Losing AJ didn't help Schaub either.

The1ApplePie
03-01-2008, 05:47 PM
Apparently Schaub couldn't take a hit in college either.

I think he has the tools to be great, but if he can't stay on the field, they don't do much good.

If Sage leaves, then the pick will be used on a second tier QB, like Ainge, Booty, or Brennan

Thorn
03-01-2008, 05:56 PM
I think he has the tools to be great, but if he can't stay on the field, they don't do much good.

Exactly. I guess we’ll find out this season.





If Sage leaves, then the pick will be used on a second tier QB, like Ainge, Booty, or Brennan

I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

bah007
03-01-2008, 06:00 PM
I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

Agreed. It would have to be a 2nd plus another pick in the 3-5 range to get it done.

HJam72
03-01-2008, 06:03 PM
I hope Sage doesn’t leave, but if he does, one pick is not good enough for me. I don’t care what anybody says, Sage is very important to this team. Until Schaub proves he can stand up and play, and not get injured, we need Sage.

I tend to agree with all of that too.

Texanmike02
03-01-2008, 06:06 PM
No, YOU guys are lobbying for David Carr II (Schaub), not I. LOL...I have seen a lot of backpeddling around here (on this thread) whereby a lot of posters are seemingly beginning to understand that we have TWO BACKUPS...not a backup and a proven starter, as a lot of you are trying to communicate. Schaub is no more a true starter than Sage.

If anything, Sage is running circles around Schaub--But that's only because he's been around this team and knows its system and the players' capabilities within the system...the best way to maximize EVERYONE'S talents and strengths during on-field play. Maybe Schaub needed a year under the belt, maybe he needed to get the first year over and done with. But I am still seeing some other qualities in Schaub that do not make me feel comfortable with him--And "No," hearing you guys repeat this mantra of "Schaub is the starter, Schaub is the starter, Schau is the starter" does not make those fears go away. It only makes me think of this: David Carr.

So the comparison you're trying to draw between me and Hulk75 is 180-degrees out of phase--It's YOU guys who are acting as if Matt Schaub (the NEW number 8 who got the big payday) can nevvvvver be criticized or held in any other view other than a glowing report.

I just want a true, bonafide open competition for the spot. There are three things that I think need to stop happening:

1. Playcalling that looks good on the opening drive and then fizzles to absolute predictable playcalling into the half and then no adjustments for the second half. How many of you sit there in the second quarter and you see the formation, down-and-distance, field position, and you KNOW what play is coming up? Exactly. And so does a veteran defensive coordinator.

2. No more of the "Wait until round 6 or 7 to find that 'diamond-in-the-rough running back'" which Shanahan and Kubiak think they can discover and pay cheaply for. Minnesota is proof positive that a great running back can help a bad or mildly average QB.

3. Here's the most frustrating thing that needs to STOP happening: The ridiculous and consistently failing approach by this team's upper management and coaching staff to think that we can tab a guy "the starter" and then that's just suddenly a magical cure to the QB problem here.

Sage would prolly flop if he were in a different system. Is it conceivable to you guys that *possibly* Sage has found the right system and players around him to fit his style of play? All the guy did was come in and save OUR season from being a losing season. Isn't that worth an open competition for once? Or will pride and contract dollars get in the way?

We have two backups. End of story. Use the words, the semantics, and whatever else you want...we don't have a starter. This is Frye-Anderson at the moment unless we pull a huge deal and go grab another "starting" QB somehow. Boyd, IMO, is someone who is intriguing...A Gerrard type of player who is mobile, strong, and waiting his turn. He moved the ball easily against us in the preseason game of 2007 vs. Arizona.

Anywho...I will lobby for the best backup to win the starting job.

I'm not backpeddling. And I'm not saying Schaub is above reproach. I'm saying Schaub is a young guy waiting for his shot. Sage is what he is. And despite what many here think... the guy didn't play that well last year. He has never played that well. He's a GOOD backup. That's his ceiling. Schaub's is unknown. I don't know what he's capable of. But I do know that if the best we can expect next year is another performance like we got last year from BOTH of our QBs... there will be no playoffs.

Mike

Joe Texan
03-01-2008, 06:21 PM
I did a thing with the numbers for the last 10 years (prior to this season) and it was astonishing the number of QB's that missed fewer than 2 games to make the playoffs vs those that started 14 or fewer. I'll look and see if I can find it... or I'll do it again.



So we are just satisfied with Schaub, He can make 9 games but he will be down for 7 so we will be mediokre again, Sorry I do not buy the coaches trusting Matt to go for the distance and do not think they are nieve enough to let Sage go. When you have a situation like we have it is unique. Everybody just has first of the season jumpers, I see good things starting for the Texans so I am gonna ride it out. Come on Draft.

edo783
03-01-2008, 08:35 PM
If Sage is that good of a backup, why not extend him with a pay raise? That way we protect our selves. I know picks are of value, but so is stability and solid play at the most important spot on the team.

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 08:58 PM
Frog:

1. Without Sage...if we had Van Pelt or Zabransky...we wouldn't have finished 8-8. So my opinion is that Sage DID rescue the season and at least handle things enough to get us to 8-8.

2. Sage, in my opinion, DID run circles around Schaub. Remember the bad pass to AJ in the back of the end zone in the Carolina game and Schaub told Kubiak "I'll never do that again?" Well...flash forward to San Diego where Schaud did it TWICE. I know Sage is known as an interception machine, but where is the credit for almost rallying us past Tennessee when things looked bad? It was a product of Titans prevent defense? Maybe. But I see Sage as a guy who knows our system better, knows our players better, and he has--in my opinion--been able to do more with less. Isn't it a FACT that we had more injuries to the oline after Schaub went down? I'm fairly sure that we had shuffled the oline quite a bit when Sage was in there.

3. Making me out to be the one who is causing division amongst the troops, when we "have so much going for us right now" is absurd. You're just flat out using hyperbole now. You can't fool a Public Relations and Advertising degree holder...I see what you're doing from a mile away!

Look, you're finally talking to me like I'm a human now. Thank you. But none of what we discuss here is going to impact the team. This is an opinion board and it's about as relevant to the success of the team as a small time Star Trek covention in Wapauga, Illinois is to the success of the Star Trek brand name.

Convict me in your mind all you want. LOL. I just can feel that Schaub is not the answer, and I think it'll be settled soon.

BTW, I do not idolize Sage. Even for a Round 2 compensation, I don't think we can trade away Sage unless there's a viable backup waiting in the wings. The fact that we're even considering trading Sage makes me hope that we DO have a viable backup on the radar somewhere--Not a draft pick in this year's draft, but an actual backup with some gametime under his belt. We need Sage as much as anything else right now.

1) If we didn't have Sage I doubt those 2 would have been our backups. They were 3rd stringers or less and didn't even make the team. Again, put things in perspective.

2) As many people have reminded you over and over..do you remember why we had to comeback against the Titans?Sages INTS. He basically put us in the hole that he tried to dig us out of. How is that special?SERIOUSLY?

Here is the post from the old thread where I responded to you

Let me give you a little refresher since you claim your not a stats guy yet you just try to throw out bad games and have amnesia on other ones that weren't won...Schaub...80% after AJ went out in the Indy loss!!..how are those first three games and EFFICIENCY. His "horrible game v Atlanta he was 70% and over 300 yards with no ints. He lost a fumble. This is the same stuff Sage does and in many cases less turnovers and better percentages. Also, when your top weapon is out, the red zone shrinks. Everyone knows this. He was 3-1 with AJ. Our sack total is one of the tops in the league. Through half of the season Schaub was ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories. You keep saying I'm not spelling things out but your arguments hold no weight. I showed you a stat on our sack total and what NFL execs are seeing of the guy in the pocket..along with many of us..and you come right back with an argument that he can't get throws off and is too slow in the pocket. How does that work?

KC--(W)-16 of 22 (72.7), 225 yds, 1 TD, 1 int
Car--(W)-20 of 28 (71.4), 227 yds, 2 TDs, 0 int
Indy(L)--27 of 33 (81.8), 236 yds, 1 TD, 2 int
Atl(L)--28 of 40 (70), 317 yds, 1 TD, 0 int
Miami(W) 20 of 34 (58.8) 294 0 TD 1 int

I will keep going if you want.....because there are only 1 or 2 truly bad games out of 11, yet people are turning a blind eye..ok, I will..almost all of these games above abnd below are similar if not better to the stats you are saying made Champ Bailey look like a chump and "picking apart defenses."

Jax(L) 19 of 31 (61.3) 259 yds 0 Tds 1 int
Tenn(L) 5 of 9 (55.6), 23 yds, 0 and 0 (knowcked out..Sage comes in with 4 TOs and then leads us back)
S.D-(L and a truly bad game) 11 of 18 (61.1), 77 yds, 0 TD, 2 ints
Out Two Games
N.O.--21 of 33 (63.6) 293 yds 2 TDs 0 ints
CLE-(allegedly horrible game but actually not bad besides 2 picks)
22 of 36 (61.1) 256 yds 2 tds 2 ints
Tenn--3 of 5 (60), 34 yds, 0 and 0


3) No clue what that meant at all. You were someone that sat here yelling people down and banging your drum for Carr despite why me and many others told you years ago and now you are doing the same for Sage and against Schaub..."Carr II(which is plain inane)

Sage has always been a backup. Despite TDs and yards he still kept took things the wrong way with the INTs and inconsistent play. No matter how hard you try he will not be a starter no matter what Schaub does. There will be another to come in if he fails and Sage will still be the backup. It is what he does best...and not all the time.

I really like both guys but I see much more upside in Schaub if the team can stay intact around him and he gets a second year in the system.

ATXtexanfan
03-01-2008, 09:11 PM
schaub has more upside that sage, trade sage for multiple picks

drewmar74
03-01-2008, 09:53 PM
Why not trade Schaub to Atlanta for this year's and next year's second round picks?

Then, trade Sage Rosenfels to Minnesota for a third round pick, then bundle that third round pick and next year's second round from Atlanta to Tampa Bay for Chris Simms.

So, now we've got Chris Simms who is a left handed QB. Now we don't need a blue chip LT because our RT, Winston, becomes the blindside protector by default. We draft a RT quality tackle in the draft and put him at LT.

Sign Brian Griese to back up Simms on a cheap free agent deal and we get all of our picks back and don't need a blue chip LT.

Problem solved.

You're welcome, Rick Smith.

michaelm
03-01-2008, 10:00 PM
Why not trade Schaub to Atlanta for this year's and next year's second round picks?

Then, trade Sage Rosenfels to Minnesota for a third round pick, then bundle that third round pick and next year's second round from Atlanta to Tampa Bay for Chris Simms.

So, now we've got Chris Simms who is a left handed QB. Now we don't need a blue chip LT because our RT, Winston, becomes the blindside protector by default. We draft a RT quality tackle in the draft and put him at LT.

Sign Brian Griese to back up Simms on a cheap free agent deal and we get all of our picks back and don't need a blue chip LT.

Problem solved.

You're welcome, Rick Smith.

The war on drugs isn't effecting you one bit, is it???

ATXtexanfan
03-01-2008, 10:03 PM
The war on drugs isn't effecting you one bit, is it???

lol a hundred times

ObsiWan
03-01-2008, 10:07 PM
You guys are premature. I believe Rosenfels has two years (this year and next) on his current contract. I say we keep him this year and groom his replacement (Shane Boyd or whoever) on the practice squad. Then, when Sage is in his last contract year, that's when we trade him.

b0ng
03-01-2008, 10:26 PM
Why not trade Schaub to Atlanta for this year's and next year's second round picks?

Then, trade Sage Rosenfels to Minnesota for a third round pick, then bundle that third round pick and next year's second round from Atlanta to Tampa Bay for Chris Simms.

So, now we've got Chris Simms who is a left handed QB. Now we don't need a blue chip LT because our RT, Winston, becomes the blindside protector by default. We draft a RT quality tackle in the draft and put him at LT.

Sign Brian Griese to back up Simms on a cheap free agent deal and we get all of our picks back and don't need a blue chip LT.

Problem solved.

You're welcome, Rick Smith.

Me and Towelie from the other boards think you're the shit.

PHAROAH
03-01-2008, 10:58 PM
To be honest we are playing with 2 career backup QB's. Shaub has more talent than Sage but injuries are an issue for Matt so to make it easy I think we should draft another QB maybe in the 4th or 5th if we trade Sage for maybe a 2nd or 3rd rd. pick.

drewmar74
03-01-2008, 11:03 PM
Me and Towelie from the other boards think you're the shit.

Thank you.

Me, full of good freakin' ideas.

Texanmike02
03-01-2008, 11:29 PM
So we are just satisfied with Schaub, He can make 9 games but he will be down for 7 so we will be mediokre again, Sorry I do not buy the coaches trusting Matt to go for the distance and do not think they are nieve enough to let Sage go. When you have a situation like we have it is unique. Everybody just has first of the season jumpers, I see good things starting for the Texans so I am gonna ride it out. Come on Draft.

No man that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't know what schaub is. But I've seen enough of Sage to convince me he's not a long term solution at QB, and the numbers show that you really need your starter to play if you want the best chance of winning. I'm not convinced however that Schaub can't be that guy. If this was a case of a team that had only a hole or two to fill.. I would say keep Sage. But this team has several holes to fill among their starters. I say fix those holes first unless you think you might have a starter who could get you to the playoffs and beyond in Sage.

Mike

dalemurphy
03-01-2008, 11:36 PM
No man that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't know what schaub is. But I've seen enough of Sage to convince me he's not a long term solution at QB, and the numbers show that you really need your starter to play if you want the best chance of winning. I'm not convinced however that Schaub can't be that guy. If this was a case of a team that had only a hole or two to fill.. I would say keep Sage. But this team has several holes to fill among their starters. I say fix those holes first unless you think you might have a starter who could get you to the playoffs and beyond in Sage.

Mike

Mike,

Here's a 7th name for you: Frank Reich! He was fairly important to the Buffalo Bills superbowl run... and also to the history of the Houston Oilers.

By the way, Sage performed a similar feat against Tennessee last year.

HoustonFrog
03-01-2008, 11:46 PM
Mike,

Here's a 7th name for you: Frank Reich! He was fairly important to the Buffalo Bills superbowl run... and also to the history of the Houston Oilers.

By the way, Sage performed a similar feat against Tennessee last year.

Two big differences

1) The Texans lost

2) Reich didn't put his team in the hole by throwing 4 INTs. Reich was 21-24, 4 TDs and 1 INT.

Are you guys remembering why were behind to start?

I'm not taking away from Sage in general but people need to stop using that game as an example.

Giant Tiger
03-01-2008, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=ObsiWan;855693]That's the key point here. We're better off, QB-wise, than we've ever been.

Unless someone is offering the farm for Sage then why screw with that??

Think about this. Minnesota has NINE picks this year. They are well under the cap. And they have a star-quality, two-headed running game.
Yet all they offered was a #3 pick. Minnesota offering one of their TWO rd 3 picks seems more like them tossing us a bone than them making a legit, good-faith offer.
They could have done much better. In my mind, they were trying to play us.
And some of you would have gone for it.

Agreed. Let's see how badly the Vikings want Sage. It has to be for multiple picks. Sure we have needs, but who's out there to replace him? It's tough to find a quarterback. Just ask the Bears.

GP
03-02-2008, 09:27 AM
To be honest we are playing with 2 career backup QB's. Shaub has more talent than Sage but injuries are an issue for Matt so to make it easy I think we should draft another QB maybe in the 4th or 5th if we trade Sage for maybe a 2nd or 3rd rd. pick.

Good post. I agree with it. We have two backups trying to solidify a starting position. Sage has just been at it longer.

Two second rounders is now looking to be a pretty steep price we paid for Schaub. I wish we could have packaged a player/cash/etc. and ONE second round pick when we made that deal.

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 10:03 AM
GP have you convienently forgotten his stints in D.C. and Miami? Or the greater # of INTS in more playing time?

No one here is busting your chops on your opinion about Sage. But at the same time i hear the Chris Chandler comparisons people should also be willing to say Cody Carlson.

Funny I don't see two back up Qbs. I see a starter and a backup. I don't see a Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck, or heck even a Derek Anderson in Sage Rosenfels.

I have to come to GP's defense here. I agree that we have 2 BACKUP QB's and everyone who insists that Schaub is the starter because ..... why? ..... some anaylst somewhere says he has potential? ........

I also don't see Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck or Derek Anderson, or even Tavarius Jackson in Matt Schaub.

The point GP and I are making is that there should be open and fair competition for the QB spot because neither has stepped up and earned it. Schaub was annointed the starter and looked good at times and not so good at times. Sage came in and performed well in Schaub's absence but, also had some rough times.

NEITHER HAS EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE ORDAINED THE STARTER FOR THIS TEAM OR ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE AND THEREFORE THEY SHOULD HAVE TO COMPETE FOR THE POSITION.

That's all .... it's simple.
:music:

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=Hoth-Boy;855605]Please stop acting like there is no difference between a career, journeyman back-up and a young back-up who has potential to be a starter.

QUOTE]


They are BOTH career backups and there's not THAT much difference in their age .... as far as QB's go.
:fans:

mexican_texan
03-02-2008, 10:06 AM
Schaub earned the job when he worked his ass off in the offseason. That's the thing you look for in a QB. Carr never lifted a finger until he had to in mini-camp.

Brando
03-02-2008, 10:14 AM
I also don't see Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck or Derek Anderson, or even Tavarius Jackson in Matt Schaub.

:

Neither do I, Schaub would be the starter over Jackson, easily.
The whole debate if Schaub is a starter is yours and GP's opinion. Neither side is going to change any minds here. I think we need to agree to disagree and move on.

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 10:17 AM
Schaub earned the job when he worked his ass off in the offseason. That's the thing you look for in a QB. Carr never lifted a finger until he had to in mini-camp.


Schaub didn't EARN it, he was ANNOINTED the starter on the day of the trade by Kubes. But yes, you are right, Schaub does have a good work ethic.
:doot:

Marcus
03-02-2008, 10:31 AM
Think about this. Minnesota has NINE picks this year. They are well under the cap. And they have a star-quality, two-headed running game. Yet all they offered was a #3 pick. Minnesota offering one of their TWO rd 3 picks seems more like them tossing us a bone than them making a legit, good-faith offer. They could have done much better. In my mind, they were trying to play us.

And some of you would have gone for it.

That, to me, is the saddest part of this thread.

HoustonFrog
03-02-2008, 12:05 PM
Schaub didn't EARN it, he was ANNOINTED the starter on the day of the trade by Kubes. But yes, you are right, Schaub does have a good work ethic.
:doot:

Because they run the team, know QBs and know Sage is a career backup. If you trust the staff and Kubes, a guy who worked with top QBs all his life..and he says Schaub is the guy...then Schaub is the guy right now.

ChampionTexan
03-02-2008, 12:14 PM
I have to come to GP's defense here. I agree that we have 2 BACKUP QB's and everyone who insists that Schaub is the starter because ..... why? ..... some anaylst somewhere says he has potential? ........



Sounds more credible to me than some guy on a message board!

infantrycak
03-02-2008, 12:22 PM
I also don't see Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck or Derek Anderson, or even Tavarius Jackson in Matt Schaub.

I'd say credibility left the building with this sentence.

Rich Gannon LOL. Schaub completed 66.4 % his first year as a starter (and not by playing Carr short plays only)--something Gannon didn't do until his 14th season. He did it at 7.8 ypa--something Gannon didn't do until his, ooops, never in his 16 seasons. Straight out of the box he had a QB rating of 87.2, something Gannon did not achieve until his 8th season and did not repeat until his 12th.

Honoring Earl 34
03-02-2008, 12:29 PM
Our QBs are almost the same player . Tall guys with average arms , above average smarts , and not much in the running department .

The thing that seperates them is a contract and two 2nd rd. picks ... Schaub is also a couple of years younger .

I think in a perfect season ( no injuries ) last year Schaub could have led us to 10-6 . I think you no what you get in Sage ( better than average QB ) while the jury is still out on Schaub .

Honoring Earl 34
03-02-2008, 12:31 PM
I'd say credibility left the building with this sentence.

Was'nt this guy a diehard Carr supporter ? If that's true then I'm not reading anymore .

Specnatz
03-02-2008, 12:32 PM
I have to come to GP's defense here. I agree that we have 2 BACKUP QB's and everyone who insists that Schaub is the starter because ..... why? ..... some anaylst somewhere says he has potential? ........

I also don't see Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck or Derek Anderson, or even Tavarius Jackson in Matt Schaub.

The point GP and I are making is that there should be open and fair competition for the QB spot because neither has stepped up and earned it. Schaub was annointed the starter and looked good at times and not so good at times. Sage came in and performed well in Schaub's absence but, also had some rough times.

NEITHER HAS EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE ORDAINED THE STARTER FOR THIS TEAM OR ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE AND THEREFORE THEY SHOULD HAVE TO COMPETE FOR THE POSITION.

That's all .... it's simple.
:music:

Actually it is not because you say it or I say it or that some analyst says itt, hell it is not even because some stupid news guy says it. he is the starter because the freakin head coach of the team says it. what a novel concept in listening to the head coach of the freakin team, some might call it thinking outside the box but it seems to work for me.

Maybe you need to tell Kubiak that neither has earned the right to start because the last time I checked he is paid to make this decision and neither you or GP or David Carr can do a damn thing about it.

Honoring Earl 34
03-02-2008, 12:44 PM
Actually it is not because you say it or I say it or that some analyst says itt, hell it is not even because some stupid news guy says it. he is the starter because the freakin head coach of the team says it. what a novel concept in listening to the head coach of the freakin team, some might call it thinking outside the box but it seems to work for me.

Maybe you need to tell Kubiak that neither has earned the right to start because the last time I checked he is paid to make this decision and neither you or GP or David Carr can do a damn thing about it.

QB is one of a few positions that we really don't have to worry about . If Schaub played like or made Brady or Manning money then we would have Jim Sorgi but for now we have Sage .

brickman
03-02-2008, 12:48 PM
It's really quite simple. Keep them both. The teams that succeed are the teams that have 2 QBs that they can trust in game situations. Plain and simple the Pats & Giants made it to the Super Bowl because both of their QBs stayed healthy. If Eli or Brady were hurt they were done. Both of their backups suck! We are in a good position. They should leave it as is. Getting a 3rd round pick that may or may not pan out is not an option.

ChampionTexan
03-02-2008, 12:55 PM
It's really quite simple. Keep them both. The teams that succeed are the teams that have 2 QBs that they can trust in game situations. Plain and simple the Pats & Giants made it to the Super Bowl because both of their QBs stayed healthy. If Eli or Brady were hurt they were done. Both of their backups suck! We are in a good position. They should leave it as is. Getting a 3rd round pick that may or may not pan out is not an option.

The teams that succeed are the teams that have 2 QB's - except this years SB teams? I'm in 100% agreement with your first sentence. After that, you kind of appear to have driven off a cliff.

brakos82
03-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Can we just :locked: this damn thread already?

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 12:59 PM
Man, I hope you folks don't vote the same way you give Kubes and Smith carte blanche on everything they do. These boards are for us to express our opinions and ideas and, if they are sometimes contrary to the coach and GM, that should be okay.

After last season, I'm more optomistic about what the coach and GM have done but, I refuse to give them a carte blanche stamp of approval just because "they say so".

:wild:

Honoring Earl 34
03-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Man, I hope you folks don't vote the same way you give Kubes and Smith carte blanche on everything they do. These boards are for us to express our opinions and ideas and, if they are sometimes contrary to the coach and GM, that should be okay.

After last season, I'm more optomistic about what the coach and GM have done but, I refuse to give them a carte blanche stamp of approval just because "they say so".

:wild:

Last year the team was desperate for a QB who would come in take the bull by the horns and at the same time give the fans some hope .

Sage and a rookie QB would'nt have changed our loser culture as much as Schaub and Sage did . From that standpoint alone Schaub has been a success .

HoustonFrog
03-02-2008, 01:09 PM
Was'nt this guy a diehard Carr supporter ? If that's true then I'm not reading anymore .

GP, Yes and this isn't his first Sage go around.

HoustonFrog
03-02-2008, 01:11 PM
Man, I hope you folks don't vote the same way you give Kubes and Smith carte blanche on everything they do. These boards are for us to express our opinions and ideas and, if they are sometimes contrary to the coach and GM, that should be okay.

After last season, I'm more optomistic about what the coach and GM have done but, I refuse to give them a carte blanche stamp of approval just because "they say so".

:wild:

Well we are fans with opinions. They are guys with years of experience evaluating talent and who sit at practices and the full off-season seeing things we don't see. Obviously from past regimes you don't give people carte blanche but so far there is nothing to say that their decisions have not only been solid but pretty good. Considering Kubes work with QBs, I'll let him tell me what he thinks compared to you and GP. Plus the numbers, age. etc bear out that Schaub has the larger upside.

TexansSeminole
03-02-2008, 01:12 PM
Considering Kubes work with QBs, I'll let him tell me what he thinks compared to you and GP. Plus the numbers, age. etc bear out that Schaub has the larger upside.

Exactly.

Goldensilence
03-02-2008, 01:12 PM
I have to come to GP's defense here. I agree that we have 2 BACKUP QB's and everyone who insists that Schaub is the starter because ..... why? ..... some anaylst somewhere says he has potential? ........

I also don't see Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck or Derek Anderson, or even Tavarius Jackson in Matt Schaub.

The point GP and I are making is that there should be open and fair competition for the QB spot because neither has stepped up and earned it. Schaub was annointed the starter and looked good at times and not so good at times. Sage came in and performed well in Schaub's absence but, also had some rough times.

NEITHER HAS EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE ORDAINED THE STARTER FOR THIS TEAM OR ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE AND THEREFORE THEY SHOULD HAVE TO COMPETE FOR THE POSITION.

That's all .... it's simple.
:music:


We don't have two backups. We have one starter. Matt Schaub. One Backup. Sage Rosenfels.

How come neither of you two have even stopped for moment to consider his stints in DC and Miami? Where he was a starter.

Let's think about it this way guys. In Free Agency when you go target a guy you feel is a viable long or short term solution. Do you say well it's pending on you winning the spot in TC through competition. No you've hand selected the guy because you feel head and shoulders above he's better then what you have.

We paid two second rounders; Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith have invested quite a bit in his future. No one here is saying he's untouchable but based on both QB's performances I saw a higher ceiling in Schaub and one QB ,Sage, who has reached his ceiling already. IMO that's the biggest difference.

Be ready to be disapointed when Sage can't beat Schaub out in TC. You two should consider careers in sports Journalism cause right now you two are pretty good at manufacturing controversy.

brickman
03-02-2008, 04:32 PM
The teams that succeed are the teams that have 2 QB's - except this years SB teams? I'm in 100% agreement with your first sentence. After that, you kind of appear to have driven off a cliff.

What I was trying to say is that 2 QBs are valuable. If the Giants or Pats had the same kind of luck with their starter that the Texans had (i.e. Scaub - the starter - going down in the middle of the season), they would not have ended up in the Super Bowl. Injuries are a big part of this game, and you can't count on making it through the season as a QB without missing some games for injuries. The Pats and Giants were very fortunate (and lucky). Without a valuable backup, you are playing Russian Roulette.

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 04:37 PM
Last year the team was desperate for a QB who would come in take the bull by the horns and at the same time give the fans some hope .

Sage and a rookie QB would'nt have changed our loser culture as much as Schaub and Sage did . From that standpoint alone Schaub has been a success .

Don't disagree with ya at all.
:fans:

was385
03-02-2008, 04:45 PM
What I was trying to say is that 2 QBs are valuable. If the Giants or Pats had the same kind of luck with their starter that the Texans had (i.e. Scaub - the starter - going down in the middle of the season), they would not have ended up in the Super Bowl. Injuries are a big part of this game, and you can't count on making it through the season as a QB without missing some games for injuries. The Pats and Giants were very fortunate (and lucky). Without a valuable backup, you are playing Russian Roulette.

I see your point but if a team is going to get into the playoffs, they almost always have to do that with healthy starting QB for the entire season. Look at the playoff teams this season: Giants, Colts, Patriots, Cowboys, Jags, Chargers, Redskins, Steelers, Seahawks, Titans, Bucs

Of those how many relied on a strong backup during the course of the season? Skins, Titans, Jags

We're a team on the rise but there are still some huge holes, something that no one can deny. I really think that over the course of a season, Rosenfels would not be able to get us into the playoffs. Obviously Schaub as he played last year wouldn't either but I think he has that potential. You've got to gamble here because we could snag a starter with a 2-3 round pick and hope to god that Schaub doesn't get injured.

maddogmrb
03-02-2008, 05:00 PM
Be ready to be disapointed when Sage can't beat Schaub out in TC. You two should consider careers in sports Journalism cause right now you two are pretty good at manufacturing controversy.

Actually, I wouldn't be disappointed at all, if there really is a competition and he wins it, then he is the best man for the job.
:fans:

mexican_texan
03-02-2008, 05:05 PM
Rosenfels for Chester Taylor. Git'R Done.

Ckw
03-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Rosenfels for Chester Taylor. Git'R Done.

I second this. I would definitely make this deal.

WesmanTexanfan
03-02-2008, 05:36 PM
How did this thread make it 20 pages, geeez, and so quickly....

GP
03-02-2008, 05:47 PM
We don't have two backups. We have one starter. Matt Schaub. One Backup. Sage Rosenfels.

How come neither of you two have even stopped for moment to consider his stints in DC and Miami? Where he was a starter.

Let's think about it this way guys. In Free Agency when you go target a guy you feel is a viable long or short term solution. Do you say well it's pending on you winning the spot in TC through competition. No you've hand selected the guy because you feel head and shoulders above he's better then what you have.

We paid two second rounders; Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith have invested quite a bit in his future. No one here is saying he's untouchable but based on both QB's performances I saw a higher ceiling in Schaub and one QB ,Sage, who has reached his ceiling already. IMO that's the biggest difference.

Be ready to be disapointed when Sage can't beat Schaub out in TC. You two should consider careers in sports Journalism cause right now you two are pretty good at manufacturing controversy.

Because, for whatever reason, he is doing fairly well in THIS system on THIS team. Look, I don't think Sage goes to the Vikings (or any other team, for that matter) and does as well as he does here. OK? He's settled into Kubiak's system well, has somehow been able to make this offense feel confident (in spite of the questionable playcalling) and yet the guy is just a stinkin' dirt bag backup to you guys. Sage has feelings, too. LOL.

Sage (to me) has earned the right to compete for the job.

Schaub has flaws that are going to continue to get him hammered. I don't wish it upon him, but it doesn't look promising that Schaub gets much further down the road here...and is still standing.

HoustonFrog
03-02-2008, 05:59 PM
Because, for whatever reason, he is doing fairly well in THIS system on THIS team. Look, I don't think Sage goes to the Vikings (or any other team, for that matter) and does as well as he does here. OK? He's settled into Kubiak's system well, has somehow been able to make this offense feel confident (in spite of the questionable playcalling) and yet the guy is just a stinkin' dirt bag backup to you guys. Sage has feelings, too. LOL.

Sage (to me) has earned the right to compete for the job.

Schaub has flaws that are going to continue to get him hammered. I don't wish it upon him, but it doesn't look promising that Schaub gets much further down the road here...and is still standing.

Such a positive attitude towards the team. :gun:

:)

Honoring Earl 34
03-02-2008, 06:16 PM
Because, for whatever reason, he is doing fairly well in THIS system on THIS team. Look, I don't think Sage goes to the Vikings (or any other team, for that matter) and does as well as he does here. OK? He's settled into Kubiak's system well, has somehow been able to make this offense feel confident (in spite of the questionable playcalling) and yet the guy is just a stinkin' dirt bag backup to you guys. Sage has feelings, too. LOL.

Sage (to me) has earned the right to compete for the job.

Schaub has flaws that are going to continue to get him hammered. I don't wish it upon him, but it doesn't look promising that Schaub gets much further down the road here...and is still standing.

The thing that I've heard the most is Sage gets back quicker and not as deep on his dropbacks .

Texanmike02
03-02-2008, 06:21 PM
What I was trying to say is that 2 QBs are valuable. If the Giants or Pats had the same kind of luck with their starter that the Texans had (i.e. Scaub - the starter - going down in the middle of the season), they would not have ended up in the Super Bowl. Injuries are a big part of this game, and you can't count on making it through the season as a QB without missing some games for injuries. The Pats and Giants were very fortunate (and lucky). Without a valuable backup, you are playing Russian Roulette.

If the Giants Pats Colts or just about any team in that class loses their QB for significant time. They are done. They don't "count on being lucky" they have good O lines, protect the QB. That's what I don't understand. If the offensive identity of this team is going to be built around the passing game then a Sage isn't going to get it done. Yeah he's going to keep you from getting embarassed in a game but at the end of the day, that's not what this team is trying to do. Go get a worthy starter and play like there is no other option at QB. When a guy takes a cheapshot at your QB like the Chargers did... you hit em back.

I hope this team is headed for greatness. I hope they are headed for a place where their backup QB can't do it. That's why I'm so ready to pull the trigger on the deal. If Schaub is the real deal... then Sage won't cut it. If he's not then we're going to need the pick to build with anyways. The only thing I know is that Sage isn't good enough to start for this team. If this team is good enough to go anywhere, sage won't take us there if he has to play extended time. The value of what a 2nd or 3rd round pick... especially in this OL and RB rich draft is to me more than that of a backup QB for 1 year.

Tell me this. Do you think that Sage could fill in for the Pats, Giants, Colts, or any team with serous playoff asperations? Just because he was good enough to beat a few bad teams doesn't mean he is worth more than a starting OL or RB. Especially since you can assume that next year some team will take a flyer on him and overpay him to leave.

Mike

steelbtexan
03-02-2008, 06:30 PM
GP

I hate it that DC didn,t work out here, but don't hold it against Kubes. He realized DC stunk & took step to rectify this mistake.

I don't understand why you hold Kubes selection of MS in such low regaurd.
Is it because Kubes pulled the plug on DC?

Kubes is a better evaluator of Qb's than you.
Is that why you have such disdain for MS? Give the guy a chance he did a good job in his 1st year as a starter. Yea he got injured but DC missed games behind this O-line & I bet you wouldn't call him injury prone.

infantrycak
03-02-2008, 08:11 PM
Schaub has flaws that are going to continue to get him hammered. I don't wish it upon him, but it doesn't look promising that Schaub gets much further down the road here...and is still standing.

Name them. Every QB has some flaws, but what are you asserting as his?

Wolf
03-02-2008, 09:10 PM
i'd trade the guy.. this team drafted so poorly the first few years that we still have holes to fill and I am willing to take a chance, I know there is no guarantees that whoever we draft will pan out (just happens), but there is no guarantee that Sage will even see the field (if shaub stays heathy) ...we need help talentwise on this team

if we can get a 2nd rounder for Sage, so be it.. I haven't looked at the 3rd round on where we'd sit with that.. so not sure

. as AJ on another thread said Spending big bucks in free agency is punishment for drafting poorly.


And maybe it is my :homer: of Kubiak and his ability to teach QB's.. I feel if he can get Sage to play good here, there has to be another QB we can bring in(except one) and make him as serviceable as Sage.

thunderkyss
03-02-2008, 09:25 PM
If Schaub is the real deal... then Sage won't cut it. If he's not then we're going to need the pick to build with anyways. The only thing I know is that Sage isn't good enough to start for this team. If this team is good enough to go anywhere, sage won't take us there if he has to play extended time. The value of what a 2nd or 3rd round pick... especially in this OL and RB rich draft is to me more than that of a backup QB for 1 year.

Mike


You can substitute Schuab's name for Sage's in any part of your argument. IMHO, neither has shown to be any better than the other.

But I'm with you, Sage is the only person on our team, that might get us a second(that we could stand to lose anyway). I agree that a team should have a capable back-up, but he's the back-up.

Kubiak did a good job finding Sage, I trust he can find us another quality back-up. Getting a second for Sage is just good business.....

Heck, I'll take Minnesota's two thirds. Or a third this year, and next years second.

TK_Gamer
03-02-2008, 09:55 PM
I have never really talked about Sage much, but I guess if I had to sum him up I would say he is an almost starter. He is a little more than a backup, but not a starter. He has decent skills but his accuracy is inconsistent, because of this, he throws more interceptions than he should. He also throws TD's though. He is calm under pressure and doesnt just throw the ball out there. He's just a guy that can't quite get over the hump to become a starter. I doubt he ever will at this point. The problem is, replacing him is a big gamble. We have just as much chance of getting someone worse as we do getting someone better. Basicly he is what he is, but he is quantifiable. I think that makes him more valuable than most of the run of the mill backups out there in the system. So we can trade him away for picks, but I dont like our chances of replacing him any time soon.

Goldensilence
03-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Because, for whatever reason, he is doing fairly well in THIS system on THIS team. Look, I don't think Sage goes to the Vikings (or any other team, for that matter) and does as well as he does here. OK? He's settled into Kubiak's system well, has somehow been able to make this offense feel confident (in spite of the questionable playcalling) and yet the guy is just a stinkin' dirt bag backup to you guys. Sage has feelings, too. LOL.

Sage (to me) has earned the right to compete for the job.

Schaub has flaws that are going to continue to get him hammered. I don't wish it upon him, but it doesn't look promising that Schaub gets much further down the road here...and is still standing.

GP seriously no one here is personally dissing Sage Rosenfels.
You're acting as if you have to circle the wagons for the guy.

I'm just going to mention it again for the Sage for president crowd. Cody Carlson.

Texanmike02
03-02-2008, 11:26 PM
You can substitute Schuab's name for Sage's in any part of your argument. IMHO, neither has shown to be any better than the other.

But I'm with you, Sage is the only person on our team, that might get us a second(that we could stand to lose anyway). I agree that a team should have a capable back-up, but he's the back-up.

Kubiak did a good job finding Sage, I trust he can find us another quality back-up. Getting a second for Sage is just good business.....

Heck, I'll take Minnesota's two thirds. Or a third this year, and next years second.

I agree with you about Schaub. The difference is I don't think we have seen the best Schaub has to offer. We don't know what his ceiling is, this is his first dance... but we do IMHO know what Sage's is. If Schaub has shown us his best we'll know soon enough and its time to move on. If sage were the 3 year vet who had started 8 games and never seen a ton of PT and I didn't feel like I knew what he had.. then I'd be saying to trade Schaub. One thing I'm not is biased. I just want the best team on the field. I don't have an agenda like some seem to here. I just want a winner and I look objectively at the team and give you my .02.

Mike

Joe Texan
03-03-2008, 12:41 PM
If we needed a back up QB, which we will if some of yal were coach, how much would we have to spend to get one, right now we are in no position to take a player with 3 years experience at trade it in for a rookie that can't tie his shoe. GK is a QB coach so he has Sage for a reason. We are sitting pretty in the control room it will be great in 08

badboy
03-03-2008, 01:12 PM
Wow, I just got caught up on this thread. Do other MB posters argue like we do? Anyway, here is the latest rumor that I am starting. Vikings offer their #1 this year and # 2 next year for Demeco Ryans. Hey Zach Diles can play MLB and we just signed Bentley for OLB.

HoustonFrog
03-03-2008, 01:15 PM
Wow, I just got caught up on this thread. Do other MB posters argue like we do? Anyway, here is the latest rumor that I am starting. Vikings offer their #1 this year and # 2 next year for Demeco Ryans. Hey Zach Diles can play MLB and we just signed Bentley for OLB.

NO WAY I'd do that!!Draft picks....you never know what you will get.. and you have a proven, YOUNG commodity in Ryans who is also a leader. You can't teach that stuff or just replace it. He is essential to keeping with the program.

bah007
03-03-2008, 01:45 PM
I dont think trading DeMeco is an option.

SheTexan
03-03-2008, 01:52 PM
I do believe the TEXANS would have a fan revolt, if they traded Demeco. He is a ray of light we have all hung on too, and has proven his worth to the team. NO WAY will they trade Meco!!!

Dallas_Texan
03-03-2008, 02:06 PM
I'm pretty sure he was joking about trading Demeco....calm down! We don't want this thread going another 10 pages! :bat:

badboy
03-03-2008, 03:34 PM
I'm pretty sure he was joking about trading Demeco....calm down! We don't want this thread going another 10 pages! :bat:Thanks for seeing that I said I was starting a rumor..

El Tejano
03-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Thanks for seeing that I said I was starting a rumor..

And if I'm not mistaken it was a sarcastic rumor at that. Right?

GP
03-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Name them. Every QB has some flaws, but what are you asserting as his?

I've been re-telling this over and over. I ought to make it my signature.

1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage. Watch the film. Watch the opening game of the year, of Schaub, and he looks like a million bucks...he's got the crisp footwork in that opening game. BUT...as games and weeks drifted by, you can see he's slowing down (minor injuries or getting banged up a bit the first few weeks). Whatever it was, you can see that Schaub is barely getting back into his final drop step and the pass rush is on him. I might have to somehow post side-by-side footage of Sage and Schaub to show you what I mean (or find similar drop-steps between the two QBs and time it on a stop watch). There has just been a lethargic trudging of the footwork by Schaub as the season wore on...and you can't do that in today's NFL. Our sack numbers are down, but our knock-downs are what's killing Schaub. From the first two games where Schaub seemed to be able to eek out a scramble and get the pass away--and we remarked at how DC would have taken a sack on it--I personally began to see Schaub roll out and just not have the wheels or gas to escape the defender long enough to throw the ball...resulting in the blindside hits and the costly fumbles at inopportune times.

2. How many times have we seen Schaub get blindsided on a pass play? Enough to see him on the bench in a groggy heap. I personally feel, from the TV angle (and we know that TV angles sometimes don't tell the truth) that he should have seen some of those guys bearing down on him because it seemed to me that the defender was level with Schaub's peripheral vision. Contrast this to Sage, who in one game I remember(vs. Broncos maybe?) felt the blindside heat (from behind, even!) and just barely nudged up into the pocket with a slight step forward while keeping his poise and balance...it was enough for him to throw the ball down the field and make a great play with one of our WRs. To me, and this is just my opinion here, Schaub is physically slower with his footwork as the season progressed, as well as slower or delayed in his adjustments in the pocket, and the way he scrambles. Again: He did great the first game, and I really thought he was The Real Deal...but the season wore on and he just looked (to me) as if he was very rusty and sloppy. He looked like a QB who was forcing it.

3. Joe Texan has mentioned something that I also noticed: Schaub's passes seem to have a different trajectory on them than Sage's. I saw a lot of sailing passes, even the passes to a wide open Kevin Walter who DID catch it (it was a good "read" by Schaub) but Walter could have scored if the ball had not sailed on Schaub, which is on Schaub. In addition, in a similar play, I remember the pass to the corner of the end zone where a wide-open WR was missed badly by Schaub (Walter or Anderson, I think). I mean, you just don't miss it THAT badly. Schaub slaps his helmet with both hands, not believing he missed it that badly. There's just something this past season, with Schaub's touch, that is weird. He did hit AJ in stride vs. the Saints on a great TD pass, but when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that? I waited for it, and never found it. I think Schaub floats his passes or arcs them a little too much.

4. Bad injuries. Look, I've been ragged hard for saying Schaub is fragile. I have never meant that he's a weakling or that he isn't tough. But the facts are the facts: He's been hit HARD, in the wrong places, and now he's going down the path of being a chronically "banged up" player. Regardless of "how" he has been hurt, he IS hurt. And he's going to be all the more susceptible to the same injuries. It invites a d-coord to blitz us heavy. I can remember the Broncos game where the defense was unsure of whether to blitz Sage or not, due in part to Sage's ability to run the offense well. He was able to burn the defense over and over, and it was causing confusion and doubt in the defense when they would cheat up to show blitz. Having a QB who is standing when the game is over, barely touched, is a huge blessing for the offense--It rewards the o-line and makes them feel confident in their effort, and it causes a d-coord to resort to other tactics which then opens up the running game and other passing plays for the offense.

Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it. I just have not been able to fully drink the Kool Aid on Matt Schaub. I think I drank too much of it with David Carr when he was here.

Lucky
03-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it.
I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

Revolution
03-03-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

Rep for you!

hadaad
03-03-2008, 05:34 PM
I've been re-telling this over and over. I ought to make it my signature.

1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage.



3. (snip) in a similar play, I remember the pass to the corner of the end zone where a wide-open WR was missed badly by Schaub (/snip)

4. Bad injuries.

Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it. I just have not been able to fully drink the Kool Aid on Matt Schaub. I think I drank too much of it with David Carr when he was here.

My responses to your takes:

1 & 2 are basically the same in my eyes. You think that Schaub's pocket ability is not as good as Sage's, whether it's awareness, agility or just that ESP that some quarterbacks seem to have. I will not dispute that Schaub does not have it. But he does have a good quick read, I believe. And he has shown that he's willing to take the shot to deliver the ball.

3. I do not agree that Schaub is less accurate than Sage. Schaub has some mental thing when he gets close to the end-zone. I will not deny that. It's frustrating but it's something that can be coached out. I believe that truly, and I believe that Kubiak will work on that. It's as obvious to me as Dayne's lack of vision.

4. Didn't Sage hit the IR last year, leaving us with the wonderful Bradlee Van Pelt as a backup? Does anyone call into question Sage's toughness or his resiliency? Honestly, he started five games last year.

Sage had a chance to make his mark against Jacksonville last year. How did he do? 11/18 128 yds 1 td, 1 int. They did win, but I don't think you'd say that it was because of Sage.

I like Sage as our backup quarterback and I'm not interested in a 3rd for him, since he brings stability and strength to a position on my football team. I think we need as much strength as we can get. But i don't think he's better than Schaub or good enough to be our starter.

infantrycak
03-03-2008, 05:41 PM
1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage. Watch the film. Watch the opening game of the year, of Schaub, and he looks like a million bucks...he's got the crisp footwork in that opening game. BUT...as games and weeks drifted by, you can see he's slowing down (minor injuries or getting banged up a bit the first few weeks).

Well the explanation was provided by Kubiak several times and you have basically admitted your whole position away. Schaub was in Kubiak's words bruised from thigh to ankle in the middle of the season. By your own admission his footwork was fine earlier.

2. How many times have we seen Schaub get blindsided on a pass play? Enough to see him on the bench in a groggy heap.

And you lose it from the get go--none of the hits that injured him were blind side hits during an attempt to pass the ball. Just because you can come up with one example of Sage doing something doesn't mean Schaub doesn't do it and his pocket presence is very good. No he is not as fleet of foot, but he moves well in the pocket.

3. Joe Texan has mentioned something that I also noticed: Schaub's passes seem to have a different trajectory on them than Sage's.

You seem to be implying as JT did that Sage throws the long ball more accurately and both of you would be wrong. Schaub completed 7 of 12 balls of 31+ yds. Sage completed 3 of 9. That's 55% to 33%.

when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that? I waited for it, and never found it.

Pretty clear you just missed it rather than it not being there.

I think Schaub floats his passes or arcs them a little too much.

I'll take 55% completion on 31+ passes all day long regardless of the arc.

Nighthawk
03-03-2008, 05:49 PM
For a team without a QB "controversy" this thread is getting awfully long. An independent observer might even conclude . . .

Texan_Bill
03-03-2008, 05:55 PM
Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that.

And not by a heck of a lot... Not enough to say, 'Hey Sage is so much more mobile, we need to use his legs as a weapon'.

Specnatz
03-03-2008, 05:56 PM
For a team without a QB "controversy" this thread is getting awfully long. An independent observer might even conclude . . .

Well this statement shows you have not read, most have said they would rather keep Sage because he is a very capable backup. Then again you are not one for reading and comprehending.

GP
03-03-2008, 06:30 PM
And not by a heck of a lot... Not enough to say, 'Hey Sage is so much more mobile, we need to use his legs as a weapon'.

His legs are not a "weapon," but it seems they keep him out of more trouble...

Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

SCHAUB:

QB rating: 87 (compared to Sage at 84, pretty close)
games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)
completion %: 66% (compared to Sage at 64, pretty close)
yards: 2,241 (roughly 600 more than Sage at 1,684)
Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)
TD: 9 (6 less than Sage)
Int: 9 (three less than Sage)
sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)
fumbles: 7 (four more than Sage, but Schaub had two more games)
fumbles lost: 3 (Same as Sage)

SAGE:

QB rating: 84
games: 9
completion %: 64%
yards: 1,684
avg: 7
TD: 15
int: 12
sack: 6
sack yds: 48
fumbles: 4
fumbles lost: 3

------------------

Schaub and Sage are pretty neck-and-neck in stats, with the obvious difference being that Schaub had two more games than Sage and an extra 600 yards. Sage averaged about 187/game...which would put him at about an extra 374 yds. passing for two more games to equal Matt's 11 games. So, Schaub has Sage on the total passing yards by about 225 yds.

My main focus is on sacks and sack yards. Please explain THIS stat away, if you can. That's a number that I think exposes Schaub as being less mobile than Sage pertaining to keeping us from losing lots of ground in field position, as well as being able to keep down-and-distance a manageable figure.

The other categories, except for total yards, is practically EVEN, is it not?

Where is this huge difference between the two QBs? You can "say" we have a starter and a backup...that's an issue of semantics...but I still see two backups competing for a starting job. A job that maybe NEITHER of them are really capable of either earning or keeping for long.

We don't have world-beaters at the QB position. I think we have two guys who are almost the same guy, but in different ways.

Saying a guy has a "higher ceiling" is just pure speculation. The same speculation which landed Schaub in a deal that a lot of people in the media--people you and I lampooned on these boards--questioned when it happened. These same media analysts loved the Schaub deal when we played our first two games, and yet began to grow silent about as the season wore on.

We saw how the media went to the oline and said "How does it feel to be vindicated for the years of being trashed for the sack numbers?" Supposedly, the new QB was showing that the oline was not so bad. Yet, look at the sack numbers and sack yards for Schaub: Who is it that suddenly stopped showing up? The oline or the QB?

And for the ones who say I need to stop mentioning David Carr...I don;t like Carr, I'm very glad he's gone, and I think a lot of people here are repeating history by propping up Matt Schaub when it it looks to me that he's not done anything spectacular yet to warrant such lovig devotion by Texans fans.

We lost two 2nd round picks in back-to-back drafts for him, and a lot of people would be OK with getting a 3rd for Sage? Go figure.

Pantherstang84
03-03-2008, 06:48 PM
He did hit AJ in stride vs. the Saints on a great TD pass, but when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that?

Let's see....

The Chiefs
Panthers ...


Your assesment is not bad, but geez don't be such a Donnie Downer. There is no way that Matt Schaub = David Carr. If we turn on the wayback machine, we are reminded that 2007 was Schaub's first year as a starter. Schaub even admitted that he needs to step up his conditioning this off season and his vowed to do so.

What is unfair about your assesment is that your equating Rosenfels 6 starts to Schaub's 10. I wonder. Would Rosensel's "foot work" be just as crisp with 10 starts?

Unless his name is Jim Sorgi, the backup QB is the most popular guy on the team. The backup comes in for a few series or games does a decent job then all of a sudden folks start thinking they should be the starter.

I think Schaub underestimated the physical demands of being a full time starter. At the end of the season he recognized that he needed to get in better shape.

I'm willing to give him a chance to do that before I start yelling "Off With His Head!"

With all of that the Texans still went 8-8 the best record in franchise history. Therefore, I tend to believe that Smithiak just might, might mind you, know what in the hell they are doing.

The1ApplePie
03-03-2008, 06:58 PM
Unless Sage steps up, or Schaub actually figures out how to take a hit, I think we will see another thread like this next year, except maybe with Brady Quinn involved.

Right now, we have two overhyped back up QBs, and no proven starter.

TexansSeminole
03-03-2008, 07:01 PM
His legs are not a "weapon," but it seems they keep him out of more trouble...

Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

SCHAUB:

QB rating: 87 (compared to Sage at 84, pretty close)
games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)
completion %: 66% (compared to Sage at 64, pretty close)
yards: 2,241 (roughly 600 more than Sage at 1,684)
Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)
TD: 9 (6 less than Sage)
Int: 9 (three less than Sage)
sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)
fumbles: 7 (four more than Sage, but Schaub had two more games)
fumbles lost: 3 (Same as Sage)

SAGE:

QB rating: 84
games: 9
completion %: 64%
yards: 1,684
avg: 7
TD: 15
int: 12
sack: 6
sack yds: 48
fumbles: 4
fumbles lost: 3


The stat that you consistantly leave out when comparing these two QBs is how many dropbacks they each had. How many attemps each quarterback had. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post because acknowledging this ruins your argument(s).

edit: the fact that you wrote in that Schaub has 80 more yards lost in sacks is down right dumb. If you average it Sage avgs 8 yards lost per sack and Schaub averages a little under 8.

I'm starting to change my thinking from before. I orginally thought that you purposefully word things to support your argument, but now I just think your clueless.

GP
03-03-2008, 07:06 PM
Let's see....

The Chiefs
Panthers ...


Your assesment is not bad, but geez don't be such a Donnie Downer. There is no way that Matt Schaub = David Carr. If we turn on the wayback machine, we are reminded that 2007 was Schaub's first year as a starter. Schaub even admitted that he needs to step up his conditioning this off season and his vowed to do so.

What is unfair about your assesment is that your equating Rosenfels 6 starts to Schaub's 10. I wonder. Would Rosensel's "foot work" be just as crisp with 10 starts?

Unless his name is Jim Sorgi, the backup QB is the most popular guy on the team. The backup comes in for a few series or games does a decent job then all of a sudden folks start thinking they should be the starter.

I think Schaub underestimated the physical demands of being a full time starter. At the end of the season he recognized that he needed to get in better shape.

I'm willing to give him a chance to do that before I start yelling "Off With His Head!"

With all of that the Texans still went 8-8 the best record in franchise history. Therefore, I tend to believe that Smithiak just might, might mind you, know what in the hell they are doing.

I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

GP
03-03-2008, 07:10 PM
The stat that you consistantly leave out when comparing these two QBs is how many dropbacks they each had. How many attemps each quarterback had. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post because acknowledging this ruins your argument(s).

Well then, YOU go out and find it hoss.

I took enough dadgum time finding THESE stats, and I didn't try to hide any of them at all. If you don't see that I tried to be balanced and fair, then you just have an agenda against me pal.

Jiminy Christmas. :cool:

dalemurphy
03-03-2008, 07:21 PM
I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

It is possible that you are right and Matt Schaub will struggle remaining healthy and will end up not being a better option than Sage...

However, it is very ignorant first to insinuate that Schaub is less mobile than Sage (NOT TRUE). Second, it's very ignorant to conclude that a lack of mobility contributes to the number of sacks and yards lost.

Here's a short list of QBs least sacked per pass attempts:
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Drew Brees

Short list of QBs sacked at very high rates:
Mike Vick
Randall Cunningham with Philadelphia


QBs get sacked because they wait too long to make a decision with the ball. That is not a problem Schaub has. He does take some sacks/hits because he's trying to make big plays downfield and holds the ball too long- however, that's occasional and not what I'd call a problem... And, by the way, that attitude is something that's been sorely missing around here!

Pantherstang84
03-03-2008, 07:39 PM
I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

Well. I dunno you're believe what you want. However, I think the fact that last year's sack total went drastically down with just a QB change says otherwise.

P. Manning is not very mobile either but he somehow managed kick our butts twice a year.

Your hatred of Kubiak. Is that one of those UT/A&M things?

GP
03-03-2008, 07:52 PM
Well. I dunno you're believe what you want. However, I think the fact that last year's sack total went drastically down with just a QB change says otherwise.

P. Manning is not very mobile either but he somehow managed kick our butts twice a year.

Your hatred of Kubiak. Is that one of those UT/A&M things?

I'm weird about college football: I actually prefer to root for A&M over UT any day, but I like TTU more because I grew up there and that's who my family raised me to root for. I personally choose to spend the bulk of my time going to WTAMU games (West Texas A&M University), a small college in the panhandle of Texas (where I attended and graduated).

I don't "hate" Kubiak. I just wonder if he's really the guy or not. He should have ditched us for the A&M job...it was perfect for him, for who he is. He feels more like a college coach and less like an NFL head coach (IMO).

When Kubiak keeps Richard Smith as D-coord...it makes me wonder about his ability to stone up.

HoustonFrog
03-03-2008, 09:17 PM
I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

Thank you. I'm starting to wonder whether each of these posts is made to bait or that GP really can just argue in circles all day without reading the reality of it all. After all "pencil whipping" stats is his specialty.

All I know according to him is our HC isn't too good and is short term and that our QB after one season is no good compared to the backup...oh and Carr was the man until it was shown he wasn't..anything else GP?

infantrycak
03-03-2008, 09:24 PM
Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)

Yeah, cuz they play 20 games a season in the NFL. How about this one which you totally overlook--games started with/without AJ. Schaub 5/6--Sage 4/1. But heck I am sure AJ isn't something teams game plan for, but Denver is just shivering trying to figure out whether to blitz Sage.

Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)

That isn't close at all. At 7.8 ypa, Schaub was tied for third in the league with Manning and Favre. 7.0 was Trent Green, Chad Pennington, JP Losman and McNabb territory.

I love how you didn't address how your and JT's seat of the pants criticism on accuracy had no reflection in reality as noted above.

bah007
03-03-2008, 09:26 PM
SCHAUB:

Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)


SAGE:

avg: 7


------------------

That close differential is the difference between 3rd in the NFL & 15th in the NFL among starting QBs

Just throwin that out there.

Texanmike02
03-03-2008, 09:33 PM
Even though the stats would lean in my favor of the arguement, you really have to ignore them. The sample size is too small. The only thing that is really meaningful in this arguement is the completion% but it is really questionable if even that is usable. Especially when you throw in the fact that most of Sages games were against bad opponents.

I will tell you what I saw from the two. Schaub made mistakes. Sometimes he made mistakes in the redzone. Schaub did it most of the time with no AJ. He also got very little time to learn the system due to injury. He does throw a catchable ball. He was on target more than Sage was. I've said before though, I don't know what Schaub can be. I do know what Sage can't be. That is our starter for an extended period of time.

Then you point to Sage's ability to get rid of the ball. I don't necesarily see it as a strength in his game because IMHO that is when he throws his ints. He also misses quite frequently. By misses I don't mean he throws incomplete, I mean he throws to the wrong side of a receiver. He doesn't put our guy in a place to move after the catch. Sage had his full compliment of receivers more often than not.

But to me, THIS ISN'T A SCHAUB VS SAGE DEBATE. I don't care who our starter is honestly. I don't want it to be Sage though. This team, as it stands right now, isn't good enough to make the playoffs with Sage at the helm. I don't think Sage is going to get significantly better over the next year or two. I think he's peaked. I don't KNOW if Schaub will get better. Nobody does for sure. He does have some problems but to me they are correctable. Knowing the offense, familiarity with the receivers, better conditioning- are all things you can improve on. If Sage were our only option, I'd say we need to find a new QB. Since he's not... he's expendable to me. That is after all the bottem line. Schaub has upside. Sage doesn't. If we were a team I thought could win 12-14 games then I would look at this completely differently. I would be ok with Sage because we didn't have many pieces to build on. But we're not. We're a team that HOPES to be a bubble team. We hope we're not on the outside looking in when the playoffs start. The addition of a starter who could possibly push us to a 10-11 win team is to me more valuable than a backup who might keep us around in a few games. Its that simple. Maybe that starter needs to be a 2nd, maybe its a 3rd... but both of those rounds will be full of OL/RB talent that can play in this league.

Mike

infantrycak
03-03-2008, 09:37 PM
That close differential is the difference between 3rd in the NFL & 15th in the NFL among starting QBs

Just throwin that out there.

That would be 3rd and 18th among QB's with 9 or more games (to eliminate the 8 QB's with less than 9 games above Sage).

Texanmike02
03-03-2008, 09:39 PM
Oh as for sacks. You REALLY can't draw a conclusion from that number. 6 vs 16? Factor in time in the system, missing Andre et al and no stat is meaninful with only a total of 22 iterations.

mike

TEXANRED
03-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.

Texanmike02
03-03-2008, 10:33 PM
I would still have to think aobut it.

Somebody get the straight jacket. Quick.

Mike

El Amigo Invisible
03-03-2008, 10:45 PM
Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.

two second rounders please

GP
03-03-2008, 10:58 PM
Thank you. I'm starting to wonder whether each of these posts is made to bait or that GP really can just argue in circles all day without reading the reality of it all. After all "pencil whipping" stats is his specialty.

All I know according to him is our HC isn't too good and is short term and that our QB after one season is no good compared to the backup...oh and Carr was the man until it was shown he wasn't..anything else GP?

1. I don't care for Kubiak's playcalling, except the opening drive which looks spotless...then it just gets dull and unimaginative leading up to the half. And then it gets worse going into the second half. We look good against teams which are worse than us, and conversely seem to never really threaten vs. teams better than us. You'd think we would be able to sneak up on a few good teams, but I think suspect coaching hinders us. "Maybe" Alex Gibbs and a departed Sherman will help...maybe.

2. I think the two QBs are equal and are not separated by much. A lot of you want to use the "Schaub has a higher ceiling" terminology? Do whatever makes you feel comfy.

3. I never thought Carr was "the man," I just wanted to see what he could do under Gary Kubiak (the guy who makes poopy QBs into superstars, supposedly). I saw. It satisfied my curiosity. I defended Carr because he was "the starter" and I felt he shouldn't be criticized unfairly until we could see what Kubiak could do with him. I guess I've learned to stop believing everything I hear from the Texans P.R. machine as it pertains to who is "the man" and who isn't. And by the way, I don't know of any more than a few posters (Vinny, HookEm, Second Honeymoon, SWTbound) who saw Carr's inevitable demise from his early days here...I would say most posters here had the same optimism I had for Carr. So it doesn't make me the schmuck you're trying to make me out to be.

I nailed the awful Ahman Green signing the night the story broke on the boards, and got nothing but grief. So...I don't get everything wrong.

Texanmike02
03-03-2008, 11:25 PM
2. I think the two QBs are equal and are not separated by much. A lot of you want to use the "Schaub has a higher ceiling" terminology? Do whatever makes you feel comfy.



Hmm. Well like I've said repeatedly. We don't know what Schaub's ceiling is. We do know that Sage didn't have starter ability at two stops before this one and Kubes doesn't see fit to start him here.

Mike

Malloy
03-04-2008, 03:07 AM
SCHAUB:

sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)[/COLOR]


SAGE:

sack: 6
sack yds: 48

------------------

My main focus is on sacks and sack yards. Please explain THIS stat away, if you can. That's a number that I think exposes Schaub as being less mobile than Sage pertaining to keeping us from losing lots of ground in field position, as well as being able to keep down-and-distance a manageable figure.


Well if you want to look at the sack yards, let's look at the sack yards.
Schaub got sacked 16 times for a total loss of 126 yards. Thats an average of 7.875 yards pr sack. Sage got sacked 6 times for a total of 48 yards. Thats an average of 8 yards pr sack.

Now, one could argue that Schaub actually handles sacks better and loses fewer yards than Sage. I will refrain from doing that and just concluding that, on average, they lose the same amount of yards on sacks.

Kaiser Toro
03-04-2008, 05:05 AM
This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

PapaL
03-04-2008, 05:39 AM
Wow...just wow. This thread is crazy. For arguements sake lets say Schaub comes in next year throws for 4000 yards 35 TD and 8 INTs some yahoo on here is going to say that Sage could have thrown for more. Good grief people.

/thread

Maddict5
03-04-2008, 06:46 AM
And you lose it from the get go--none of the hits that injured him were blind side hits during an attempt to pass the ball. Just because you can come up with one example of Sage doing something doesn't mean Schaub doesn't do it and his pocket presence is very good. No he is not as fleet of foot, but he moves well in the pocket.


exactly... just off the top of my head i remember a play that GP etc should look at for schaub's pocket presence- his TD pas to dreessen v the saints.. should be on nfl.com ot the HT video page

Unless Sage steps up, or Schaub actually figures out how to take a hit, I think we will see another thread like this next year, except maybe with Brady Quinn involved.

Right now, we have two overhyped back up QBs, and no proven starter.

you really need to go watch a few other teams qb's... we dont have brady or mannings but i would definitely put schaub in the big ben, carson palmer class etc. i know that may sound like rose-tinted glasses but ive watched those guys and i see them do nothing better than schaub does. sage is also a very nice qb too in our system.. but i have some doubts as to whether that would translate as well elsewhere

This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

Wow...just wow. This thread is crazy. For arguements sake lets say Schaub comes in next year throws for 4000 yards 35 TD and 8 INTs some yahoo on here is going to say that Sage could have thrown for more. Good grief people.

/thread

exactly, our passing game was top 10 id guess last year and considering how poorly we ran the ball id look at other areas for us to improve because id call qb and wr strengths on our team. look at the (limited amount of) games where we ran the ball well- carolina, denver, saints off the top of my head and BOTH our qb's looked great.


and for the record, id take a 2nd for sage. i think kubiak can find another guy who can fit this system well

HoustonFrog
03-04-2008, 08:18 AM
This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

QFT!

The problem is you think you are getting somewhere and then the circle starts again with some. Frustrating.

Thorn
03-04-2008, 08:26 AM
QFT!

The problem is you think you are getting somewhere and then the circle starts again with some. Frustrating.

It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

In any case, whatever anyone’s opinion is, we’ll find out this season what’s what. I sure as hell hope (an unproven) Schaub is the guy.

Maddict5
03-04-2008, 08:34 AM
Brian Griese-QB- Buccaneers Mar. 4 - 1:11 am et

The Bears received a sixth-round draft pick in 2009 in exchange for Brian Griese.

We'd have to think it's conditional based on starts Griese might make this year, but that's not confirmed. One report out of Chicago said that the Bucs were competing with Houston to land Griese, which is out of left field with Sage Rosenfels there and the Texans adamantly holding onto him.
Source: Chicago Tribune
Related: Bears, Texans

:shades:

badboy
03-04-2008, 08:37 AM
I just hope we have a cornerback controversy and a free safety controversy and an OLB controversy and ....

Malloy
03-04-2008, 08:45 AM
It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.



Reminds me of last off-season.. and the one before that.. and the... :)

Errant Hothy
03-04-2008, 09:11 AM
Brian Griese-QB- Buccaneers Mar. 4 - 1:11 am et

The Bears received a sixth-round draft pick in 2009 in exchange for Brian Griese.

We'd have to think it's conditional based on starts Griese might make this year, but that's not confirmed. One report out of Chicago said that the Bucs were competing with Houston to land Griese, which is out of left field with Sage Rosenfels there and the Texans adamantly holding onto him.
Source: Chicago Tribune
Related: Bears, Texans
:shades:

I would take this to mean that the Texans are still taking calls about Sage, and are possible looking at options if they do trade him.

HoustonFrog
03-04-2008, 09:13 AM
It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

In any case, whatever anyone’s opinion is, we’ll find out this season what’s what. I sure as hell hope (an unproven) Schaub is the guy.

Sorry, I'm bored to but that is one "controversy" that is manfactured in my mind. Plus it would be easier to debate if people listened or read on one side. It seems like people are just wanting to start something because the Carr threads left.

I agree with point #2.

drewmar74
03-04-2008, 09:32 AM
I would take this to mean that the Texans are still taking calls about Sage, and are possible looking at options if they do trade him.

I heard Bradlee Van Pelt is available and sitting by the phone.

Goldensilence
03-04-2008, 09:40 AM
Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.



You're kidding right? A career backup who has topped out and someone offers us a first and you're thinking about it? :gun:

I know wins are wins but did you even see the statlines for the games we won while Sage was starting WITH AJ?

For the record if we can press it up to a second on draft day cool if not I'd be ok fora third for Sage and Sign Gus Ferrotte.

Specnatz
03-04-2008, 09:59 AM
It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

In any case, whatever anyone’s opinion is, we’ll find out this season what’s what. I sure as hell hope (an unproven) Schaub is the guy.


It is the offseason and some dolt who has not been around during the reg season thought he would come here and stroke himself infront of everyone. Logic be damned facts be damned it is all about making oneself the center of it all.

Maddict5
03-04-2008, 10:01 AM
I would take this to mean that the Texans are still taking calls about Sage, and are possible looking at options if they do trade him.

exactly... which is why i posted it :cowboy1:

GP
03-04-2008, 11:13 AM
It is the offseason and some dolt who has not been around during the reg season thought he would come here and stroke himself infront of everyone. Logic be damned facts be damned it is all about making oneself the center of it all.

If you're talking about me, then you're wrong--So you need to check yourself if you're referring to me. I've been around all year, for years.

I have stats which I think show Sage and Schaub are at the same level, at the moment. But I supposedly do not have "facts" or "logic."

Quit trying to personally attack me at every point. I've got posters who are sending me positive rep, commenting on how they agree with me. Of course they won't say so publicly on the board because history is proving that you and others seek out and flame people like me if we have a different viewpoint.

People can hypothesize "Well, Sage had AJ..." or "Schaub has a higher ceiling..." all they want. We're all doing the same thing: Making judgment calls. Because I see 9 games and 11 games, and the stats are pretty dadgum close to one another. But! I should remember that I am parsing stats, I am a dolt, etc.

We have a known commodity in Sage, and it was surprising how many posters were biting on the 3rd round offer.

infantrycak
03-04-2008, 11:33 AM
People can hypothesize "Well, Sage had AJ...

Sage had AJ is not a hypothesis, it is a fact. It is also a fact that even with AJ, he averaged considerably fewer yards per game.

Texaninlild
03-19-2008, 08:02 PM
Since we are back on Sage trade talk. What is the value of an above average backup QB?

3rd?
2nd?
or combination of picks?

ChrisG
03-19-2008, 08:15 PM
do we really need another thread about this...LOOK AT ALL THE OTHER TRADE SAGE THREADS AND SEE WHAT PEOPLE THINK HE IS WORTH

this is the whole reason i avoid the houstontexans.com board because its completely filled with Lets trade Sage for ____ or how much could we get for Andre Johnson

Maddict5
03-19-2008, 08:15 PM
2nd and trade of firsts (18-->17 in case harvey reaches there :))

if anybody think thats overvalued, go to nfl.com and look at sages highlights from the past season... a nice refresher of why he should be valued that highly- some quality throws

gtexan02
03-19-2008, 08:20 PM
All about precendent. List the backup QB trades you can remember here:

I've got:

Matt Schaub (backup) to Houston Texans (starter) - 2 2nd rounders and swap 1st
Charlie Fry (backup) to Seattle (backup) - 6th rounder
Drew Henson (backup) to Dallas (backup) - 3rd rounder

Ole Miss Texan
03-19-2008, 08:22 PM
You can't place a value on Sage as generic as a 1st or a 2nd or a 3rd.

You have got to assign a range specific value as in " I would trade him for an early 2nd round: picks 32-42" or a late 2nd round pick (#'s 54-62)

The 1st pick in the 3rd round is much different than say the 20th pick in the 3rd round. Both 3rd rounders but much different value.

And I have no idea what value I would place on Sage. But as long as we had a decent backup that Kubiak is comfortable with, then I'd trade him for an early 3rd rd pick or better... maybe... my view is allowed to change on a day by day, hour by hour basis though. :)

Second Honeymoon
03-19-2008, 08:30 PM
You can't place a value on Sage as generic as a 1st or a 2nd or a 3rd.

You have got to assign a range specific value as in " I would trade him for an early 2nd round: picks 32-42" or a late 2nd round pick (#'s 54-62)

The 1st pick in the 3rd round is much different than say the 20th pick in the 3rd round. Both 3rd rounders but much different value.

And I have no idea what value I would place on Sage. But as long as we had a decent backup that Kubiak is comfortable with, then I'd trade him for an early 3rd rd pick or better... maybe... my view is allowed to change on a day by day, hour by hour basis though. :)

exactly ole miss...nobody wants the Giants 2nd Rounder because its essentially a 3rd Rounder.

gtexan02
03-19-2008, 08:35 PM
Another interesting thing to think about is how much of a compensation pick would we get if we just let Sage loose and had him sign an NFL deal on his own?

Thats what the Chargers did we Turner. They kept him for his contract, then let him go. He signed a decent size contract and will probably make an impact, giving the Chargers a 3rd rounder or better as compensation.

Maybe we could just keep Sage for the year, check out Schaub's health, and if we like what we see, let sage go and pickup whatever compensation we can

Bubbajwp
03-19-2008, 08:36 PM
exactly ole miss...nobody wants the Giants 2nd Rounder because its essentially a 3rd Rounder.

Just like nobody wants the patriots first round because. Oh wait.:user:

Grid
03-19-2008, 09:36 PM
I would gladly take the Giants 2nd rounder (last pick of the first day) or the Dolphins 3rd rounder (1st pick of the second day)

Unfortunately, neither of those teams would be interested in Sage.

Specnatz
03-19-2008, 09:57 PM
Since we are back on Sage trade talk. What is the value of an above average backup QB?

3rd?
2nd?
or combination of picks?

WHY? This has been beat to friggin death :deadhorse



:gun:

If I was just a bit more of an A-Hole I would Negative Rep this thread!!

Texaninlild
03-19-2008, 10:05 PM
WHY? This has been beat to friggin death :deadhorse



:gun:

If I was just a bit more of an A-Hole I would Negative Rep this thread!!

Probably because I wasn't on when we did this previously or not paying attention and they are talking about bringing in another QB.

Sorry about adding a whole new thread line that you would have to overlook and not respond to.

:deadhorse

infantrycak
03-19-2008, 10:14 PM
There is a search feature so you can check to see if there are prior threads. Welcome to the MB--you'll get the hang.

Texaninlild
03-19-2008, 10:22 PM
There is a search feature so you can check to see if there are prior threads. Welcome to the MB--you'll get the hang.

Got it. It looks like this topic has been covered a little in the past. 20 pages covered....

:texans:

Ole Miss Texan
03-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Scared me for a second. I get back on and am like "how long was I gone!!?? this thread is already 24 pages long" LOL

leebigeztx
03-20-2008, 12:41 AM
Before the release of veteran qbs, it was a 3rd, now its lower.

Lucky
03-31-2008, 08:46 AM
The Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/17145341.html) reports that the Vikings are still interested in Sage.

Of those possibilities, who is your favorite? The Vikings' top choice is clear: Rosenfels. In fact, they made him one of their top offseason priorities and considered his acquisition no less important than that of receiver Bernard Berrian or safety Madieu Williams.

The Vikings offered Houston a third-round draft pick in the hopes of acquiring him just before the free-agent period began. Talks stalled when the Texans asked for a second-round pick, but there is a general feeling among NFL people that the teams could re-enter those discussions as early as this week, when all 32 teams gather here for the league's annual meetings.

Publicly, not enough attention has been spent on the significance in the difference of entering 2008 with Rosenfels and without him. If they snag him, the Vikings will have finally accomplished a project three years in the making: finding a veteran backup who knows the West Coast offense and has demonstrated an ability to win games as a short-term starter.
Here's how the article ends:

A second-round draft pick is a hefty price for a backup player. But the Vikings don't need to be reminded how important a position it is.The Star Tribune seems to be selling this trade to Viking fans.

Texan_Bill
03-31-2008, 09:28 AM
C'mon Vikes!! Don't be a skeeeered!!!

Pull the trigger; a second for Sage!!

J-Russ
03-31-2008, 09:41 AM
Sage Rosenfels-QB-Texans Mar. 31 - 10:07 am et

There is "general feeling" that the Vikings and Texans will re-enter trade talks involving Sage Rosenfels at the owners' meetings this week.

Acquiring Rosenfels was reportedly one of the Vikings' top priorities entering the offseason, no less important than Bernard Berrian's signing. The Vikings know Houston wants a second-round pick. If they add a fifth-rounder or a CB like Marcus McCauley to their offer of a third, maybe the Texans will bite.
Source: Minneapolis Star-Tribune

so a high third, a young talented CB that was a third last year, and a high fifth...

Rick sure do know how to work it.

Malloy
03-31-2008, 09:42 AM
Eggs in one basket. Who knows, it might play out to our favour. It'll be interesting to see what happens the next couple of weeks, sure would be nice to get that 2nd round pick back. If we do that, the price of our starting QB is.... a 2nd. Last year :)

badboy
03-31-2008, 09:42 AM
A second from the Vikes and Atlanta's two 2nd for our 18 and a 5th round. I could see us getting a LT, RB and a CB in round two. We would then have 3rd and 4th to further strengthen the team.

HoustonFrog
03-31-2008, 09:46 AM
According to McClain this morning, people around the league are amazed that we got Quinn for the price we did. The way it is set up we can trade him right after camp if teams start losing QBs in preseason. He also has enough respect where Sage can probably be had at the draft. I think a 2nd at draft time will get it done for Sage.

badboy
03-31-2008, 09:53 AM
Sage Rosenfels-QB-Texans Mar. 31 - 10:07 am et

There is "general feeling" that the Vikings and Texans will re-enter trade talks involving Sage Rosenfels at the owners' meetings this week.

Acquiring Rosenfels was reportedly one of the Vikings' top priorities entering the offseason, no less important than Bernard Berrian's signing. The Vikings know Houston wants a second-round pick. If they add a fifth-rounder or a CB like Marcus McCauley to their offer of a third, maybe the Texans will bite.
Source: Minneapolis Star-Tribune

so a high third, a young talented CB that was a third last year, and a high fifth...

Rick sure do know how to work it.I can't find much recent news on McCauley. 25 yoa with good closing speed. http://profootballexperts.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=2611369

http://min.scout.com/2/639792.html

I do not want a 3rd an a 5th for Sage. A two or nothing.

Would it be better for Vikes to wait until draft day rather than owners' meeting to work up a deal? Of course, if they want Sage and have a 2nd round bottom line to offer, they should do deal rather than hope another team does not come into play.

TheRealJoker
03-31-2008, 09:55 AM
I like the idea of getting McCauley and a 3rd for Sage. With McCauley you've got a young talented CB with an NFL season under his belt, I doubt you'd find someone in the 3rd at CB that'll be ready to contribute on McCauley's level on opening day.

Here is a predraft breakdown on McCauley last year:

http://www.mymockdraft.com/594/PlayerDetail.aspx

Marcus McCauley

* CB |
* Fresno State |
* NCAAF

* CB Rank: 5
* Overall: 34
* Projected Round: 2

* Height: 6-1 |
* Weight: 200 |
* 40 Time: 4.40

Positives

Has prototypical size...Timed speed is outstanding...Athletic and quick with fluid hips and a great burst...Physical and aggressive...A playmaker with pretty good ball skills...Has great body control, leaping ability and timing...Good tackler who will support versus the run...Has superb instincts for the game...A hard worker with good intangibles...Is able to play and excel in either man or zone coverage.

Negatives

His technique and footwork can be inconsistent...Will gamble and take too many risks...Hands are questionable and he will drop some interceptions...Needs to get a little stronger...Was not really thrown at a lot in college...Has trouble locating the ball...Struggled mightily at times in 2006 and didn't have a great senior year.

I hope this isn't just a name being thrown out by the paper and that there is something to McCauley plus a 3rd to the Texans for Sage.

badboy
03-31-2008, 09:58 AM
I like the idea of getting McCauley and a 3rd for Sage. With McCauley you've got a young talented CB with an NFL season under his belt, I doubt you'd find someone in the 3rd at CB that'll be ready to contribute on McCauley's level on opening day.

Here is a predraft breakdown on McCauley last year:

http://www.mymockdraft.com/594/PlayerDetail.aspx

Marcus McCauley

* CB |
* Fresno State |
* NCAAF

* CB Rank: 5
* Overall: 34
* Projected Round: 2

* Height: 6-1 |
* Weight: 200 |
* 40 Time: 4.40

Positives

Has prototypical size...Timed speed is outstanding...Athletic and quick with fluid hips and a great burst...Physical and aggressive...A playmaker with pretty good ball skills...Has great body control, leaping ability and timing...Good tackler who will support versus the run...Has superb instincts for the game...A hard worker with good intangibles...Is able to play and excel in either man or zone coverage.

Negatives

His technique and footwork can be inconsistent...Will gamble and take too many risks...Hands are questionable and he will drop some interceptions...Needs to get a little stronger...Was not really thrown at a lot in college...Has trouble locating the ball...Struggled mightily at times in 2006 and didn't have a great senior year.

I hope this isn't just a name being thrown out by the paper and that there is something to McCauley plus a 3rd to the Texans for Sage.Might fit good in our defensive scheme but one of the links I posted indicated a possible unwillingness to come up and hit after he concussed.

Ole Miss Texan
03-31-2008, 11:08 AM
I was hoping we would look at McCauley last year during the draft. If they offered us Him AND their 1st 3rd rd pick, I'd take it in a heart beat. I have a feeling that if the Texans don't receive an overwhelmingly great deal for Sage, they will (a) wait until draft day to make a deal for a higher price or if a player we really want drops or (b) not trade him at all.

Lucky
03-31-2008, 11:23 AM
The Vikings know Houston wants a second-round pick. If they add a fifth-rounder or a CB like Marcus McCauley to their offer of a third, maybe the Texans will bite.
Source: Minneapolis Star-Tribune
Where did this come from? I couldn't find anything from the Star Tribune mentioning McCauley. He started 9 games for the Vikings last season. McCauley could be Winfield's replacement in the not-to-distant future. I doubt the Vikings will be willing to part with him.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-31-2008, 11:45 AM
I didn't see any mention of McCauley in the article either.

aj.
03-31-2008, 11:46 AM
Where did this come from?

Roto editorial comment on Siefert's article:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Home_NFL.aspx

It's possible that Quinn Gray has some 'Not Likely to be Earned's' in his contract (and not likely to be reported) - hence his eagerness to sign for the minimum.

Joe Texan
03-31-2008, 08:13 PM
What is Sage's value?


Priceless

Bubbajwp
03-31-2008, 08:26 PM
Sage Rosenfels-QB-Texans Mar. 31 - 10:07 am et

There is "general feeling" that the Vikings and Texans will re-enter trade talks involving Sage Rosenfels at the owners' meetings this week.

Acquiring Rosenfels was reportedly one of the Vikings' top priorities entering the offseason, no less important than Bernard Berrian's signing. The Vikings know Houston wants a second-round pick. If they add a fifth-rounder or a CB like Marcus McCauley to their offer of a third, maybe the Texans will bite.
Source: Minneapolis Star-Tribune

so a high third, a young talented CB that was a third last year, and a high fifth...

Rick sure do know how to work it.

I would take the McCauley + 3rd trade in a heartbeat.

1rst LT
no Second
3rd - OLB, DE

J-Russ
04-01-2008, 09:05 AM
PALM BEACH, FLA. — The Texans came to South Florida reading and hearing about the Vikings' possible renewed interest in quarterback Sage Rosenfels, but one day into the NFL spring meetings, the two sides had not spoken.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5663883.html

Texans coach on Rosenfels trade: “Absolutely not”
April 1st, 2008 – 8:09 AM by Kevin Seifert

PALM BEACH, FLA. — That’s what Houston coach Gary Kubiak said this morning when asked if his team is looking to trade backup QB Sage Rosenfels — to the Vikings or anyone else. Kubiak deferred some questions to GM Rick Smith but made clear that starter Matt Schaub’s health — he is recovering from shoulder surgery — makes it difficult to trade Rosenfels.

“He’s important to our football team,” Kubiak said. “Our starter right now physically has a problem, coming off shoulder surgery, so Sage is very important to our football team.”

Some of Kubiak’s comments could be posturing. But they also make sense. Why would the Texans, who have playoff aspirations in 2008, trade a relatively young but proven backup quarterback when their starter’s health is in question? The Vikings remain heavily interested in Rosenfels, having offered a third-round draft pick for him, but it’s not certain that Houston will trade him at any price.

The Vikings will probably make another run at Rosenfels before the April 26-27 draft, but a deal doesn’t seem too likely at this point.

http://vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=16293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Kubes, you're breaking my balls....

they might just say "screw it", if you keep leading them on like this...:headhurts:

Kaiser Toro
04-01-2008, 09:08 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5663883.html



http://vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=16293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Kubes, you're breaking my balls....

they might just say "screw it", if you keep leading them on like this...:headhurts:

Kubiak is saying all the right things as the coach of the team.

J-Russ
04-01-2008, 09:13 AM
Kubiak is saying all the right things as the coach of the team.

You're right, but hearing the same thing over and over again has really gotten me to believe in it... not that I wouldn't want Sage though, I'd just rather have another day one draft pick.

Bubbajwp
04-01-2008, 09:15 AM
You're right, but hearing the same thing over and over again has really gotten me to believe in it... not that I wouldn't want Sage though, I'd just rather have another day one draft pick.

Thats what its supposed to do make the entire NFL believe it.

Lucky
04-01-2008, 01:24 PM
StarTribune.com (http://ww3.startribune.com/vikingsblog/?p=1488) is now reporting that the Vikings are close to signing vet QB Gus Frerotte, which would table the Sage Rosenfels trade discussions.

PALM BEACH, FLA. — With the Houston Texans apparently intent on keeping QB Sage Rosenfels, indications are strong this morning that the Vikings are nearing an agreement with free agent QB Gus Frerotte.

Frerotte, who also has visited the Green Bay Packers, could agree to terms in the next few days. He would serve as a veteran backup for starter Tarvaris Jackson.

The Vikings have been attempting to trade for Rosenfels for much of the offseason, but Texans coach Gary Kubiak made a compelling case this morning for why the team doesn’t want to trade him.

TexansSeminole
04-01-2008, 01:28 PM
$$$ Shoot, keep him for another year. Maybe at this time next year, after this bad QB draft class, the value of all QBs will rise. $$$

J-Russ
04-01-2008, 01:44 PM
$$$ Shoot, keep him for another year. Maybe at this time next year, after this bad QB draft class, the value of all QBs will rise. $$$

Great idea!

Keep him another year, then his value will skyrocket! What, he'll be like 31, and have much less playing time then he did this year, not to mention he'll be a FA.

And forget about getting a 3rd now!

I mean Sage is so much more valueble then a 3rd round pick in a draft full of talented CB, T, RB, and DLinemen, even if we only keep him for one more year..... just to be a back-up..... that probably won't see any playing time because Schaub is the starter.... and he won't miss time like he did last year because we have Gibbs and we'll draft a stud LT with an improve OL........ and he is not fragile.

badboy
04-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Great idea!

Keep him another year, then his value will skyrocket! What, he'll be like 31, and have much less playing time then he did this year, not to mention he'll be a FA.

And forget about getting a 3rd now!

I mean Sage is so much more valueble then a 3rd round pick in a draft full of talented CB, T, RB, and DLinemen, even if we only keep him for one more year..... just to be a back-up..... that probably won't see any playing time because Schaub is the starter.... and he won't miss time like he did last year because we have Gibbs and we'll draft a stud LT with an improve OL........ and he is not fragile.Sage is under contract for two years. 31 is not old for a QB with minimal miles and damage. You have no idea of how much playing time he will get this year.

ChampionTexan
04-01-2008, 02:58 PM
Great idea!

Keep him another year, then his value will skyrocket! What, he'll be like 31, and have much less playing time then he did this year, not to mention he'll be a FA.




The year before A.J. Feeley was traded to the Miami Dolphins for a second round pick, he didn't throw a pass - he was traded based on significant time as a starter (due to injury) the previous year.

When Schaub was traded for two 2nd round picks and a swap of #1's, he had two starts in his career, and neither of them were in the immediately preceding year.

I honestly believe the only thing that can do significant damage to Sage's trade value is playing poorly for a significant amount of time.

TK_Gamer
04-01-2008, 04:35 PM
I would take the McCauley + 3rd trade in a heartbeat.

1rst LT
no Second
3rd - OLB, DE

I would take a 3rd, McCauley and a 5th, but nothing less. We don't HAVE to trade. They are the ones that need the reliable backup.

2slik4u
04-01-2008, 08:59 PM
StarTribune.com (http://ww3.startribune.com/vikingsblog/?p=1488) is now reporting that the Vikings are close to signing vet QB Gus Frerotte, which would table the Sage Rosenfels trade discussions.

as much as i would want to cash in on sage's value right now, if they sign frerotte then that would make me happy to know we have a solid backup for at least one more year. who knows, sage could be the starter going into 2010 if fragile matt cant stay healthy. whatever the case, makes for good speculation.

honestly, i think its a win-win situation whatever way it goes.

ATXtexanfan
04-01-2008, 09:36 PM
sage's value will be proven when schaub goes down, which will prove that the schaub trade sucked, but if sage sucks then everything sucks, here's to hope that the injury bug doesn't bite us again next year, i'm all for striking while the iron is hot

281
04-01-2008, 10:51 PM
i think a lot of people forget that having sage around will only increase schaub's abilities if he stays healthy... competition is a good thing.

Hook'er
04-01-2008, 11:52 PM
StarTribune.com (http://ww3.startribune.com/vikingsblog/?p=1488) is now reporting that the Vikings are close to signing vet QB Gus Frerotte, which would table the Sage Rosenfels trade discussions.

They were talking about this on NFL Network today.

Malloy
04-02-2008, 04:10 AM
sage's value will be proven when schaub goes down, which will prove that the schaub trade sucked, but if sage sucks then everything sucks, here's to hope that the injury bug doesn't bite us again next year, i'm all for striking while the iron is hot

That's alot of sucking...

HoustonFrog
04-02-2008, 09:20 AM
They were talking about this on NFL Network today.

If they are wanting Ferotte then you'd think they would be willing to give up a 2nd for Sage. Geesh...Jackson and Ferotte...how formidable:gun: