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View Full Version : Vikings want to trade for Rosenfels..............


Hook'er
03-10-2008, 10:17 AM
Would you give Sage for Chester Taylor strait up?:texflag:

El Tejano
03-10-2008, 10:18 AM
Prepare for everyone to tell you this has already been talked about.

TEXANS84
03-10-2008, 10:20 AM
Already discussed and locked.

Hook'er
03-10-2008, 10:22 AM
......OK, sorry guys................lock it up.

PHAROAH
03-10-2008, 10:57 AM
no i wouldn't lets just draft a running back and be done with it.

Texan_Bill
03-10-2008, 11:01 AM
How bout Sage for Adrian Peterson?

:splits: :splits: :splits: :splits: :splits:
:::Just messing around...don't flame me!:::


I'd do that deal all day long and twice on Sunday!!! :cowboy1:

awtysst
03-10-2008, 11:09 AM
No doubt!

I started to post "How bout Sage AND Schaub for Peterson?"

I'd still do THAT!



Yeah but then who would play QB? We need someone other than Craig Nall as our starter. I really dont want to get Harrington or You know who.

El Tejano
03-10-2008, 11:34 AM
Honestly I think we should really talk up the RB position for the draft. There are teams like the and Seahawks that are going to want a RB in the draft. The more we talk up the RB situation and a guy slides to us, we should be getting some entertaining offers.

This may be the reason we will not sign a RB FA. Sure we will bring some in to show we are looking for a RB, but we won't sign anybody so that way the draft will look like RB for Houston all day long. Then someone will want a guy at our position and we can get a good trade going, perhaps trading down and getting a CB or LT at a better value.

stingray
03-10-2008, 11:35 AM
Gil Brandt talked about trading Sage for Chester on Sirius NFL Radio. He thinks it's gonna happen during the draft.

infantrycak
03-10-2008, 11:39 AM
FYI--Chester is signed for two more seasons at $3 mil per season. The Vikes would eat any bonus money paid to date in a trade.

El Tejano
03-10-2008, 11:40 AM
Gil Brandt talked about trading Sage for Chester on Sirius NFL Radio. He thinks it's gonna happen during the draft.

Raytex,

My brother lives in Brownsville. From what I understand yall may be the only two Texan fans there.


I wouldn't mind the trade for Chester Taylor. I think it would help us win now and take care of a need position so we can focus on CB and LT.

stingray
03-10-2008, 11:47 AM
Raytex,

My brother lives in Brownsville. From what I understand yall may be the only two Texan fans there.


I wouldn't mind the trade for Chester Taylor. I think it would help us win now and take care of a need position so we can focus on CB and LT.

Yep, there are very few of us. Cowboy land, Lots of ignorant Cowboy fans.

El Tejano
03-10-2008, 11:49 AM
Yep, there are very few of us. Cowboy land, Lots of ignorant Cowboy fans.
My brother hates that because Bville is closer to Houston than Dallas. Oh well.

ChampionTexan
03-10-2008, 11:52 AM
Yep, there are very few of us. Cowboy land, Lots of ignorant Cowboy fans.


Straight from the Deparment of redundancy department!

BigBull17
03-10-2008, 12:28 PM
Id do this in a heart beat. Would let us fix other positions and have a staarting calibur RB.

HoustonFrog
03-10-2008, 12:41 PM
How bout Sage for Adrian Peterson?

:splits: :splits: :splits: :splits: :splits:
:::Just messing around...don't flame me!:::


Are you kidding. Not for Sage. Yeah Peterson is young and a perennial all pro and a back that can change games....but Sage has something you can't put your finger on for a backup QB. We have to keep him :stirpot:

YoungTexanFan
03-10-2008, 12:43 PM
I would be so pissed off if that trade actually happened. Sage has proven to be no worse a starter than Schaub to this point. I don't mind trading him, especially to a team like the Vikings, but if we get an over the hill, average at best RB who has seen his better days...ala Green...I will boycott the FO and their decision and evaluation of any and all RB's. This would be one of the absolute worst trades I could think up. I would rather get only a 4th round draft pick and Taylor. However, I think Sage is worth a 2nd rounder and some team will pay that asking price.

Vinny
03-10-2008, 12:45 PM
FYI--Chester is signed for two more seasons at $3 mil per season. The Vikes would eat any bonus money paid to date in a trade.Peterson has had injury issues as per his history so I think it would be short sighted for the Vikings to trade Taylor. It's pretty much the same argument as to not trading Schaub here.

beerlover
03-10-2008, 12:48 PM
Peterson has had injury issues as per his history so I think it would be short sighted for the Vikings to trade Taylor. It's pretty much the same argument as to not trading Schaub here.

well said :thumbup

HoustonFrog
03-10-2008, 12:51 PM
I would be so pissed off if that trade actually happened. Sage has proven to be no worse a starter than Schaub to this point. I don't mind trading him, especially to a team like the Vikings, but if we get an over the hill, average at best RB who has seen his better days...ala Green...I will boycott the FO and their decision and evaluation of any and all RB's. This would be one of the absolute worst trades I could think up. I would rather get only a 4th round draft pick and Taylor. However, I think Sage is worth a 2nd rounder and some team will pay that asking price.

I wouldn't exactly group Taylor as some over the hill back. He has been in the league 5 years..drafted in 2002 and 2 years ago had 1216 yards, averaging 4 yds a carry. This past year, as not even the main back he still had 844 yards, 7 TDs and averaged 5.4 a carry. Not too shabby.

El Tejano
03-10-2008, 12:55 PM
7 TDs is all I need to hear. I saw alot of those being scored from 20+ too.

Overalls
03-10-2008, 01:06 PM
I am not in favor of trading Sage but after looking a Taylors stats I can definately think of worse returns on our investment IF we traded Sage for Taylor.

He is 28. He has started 31 games in his career out of a possible 96.
However he has played in 91 games out of 96. That shows he mostly stays healthy but also that he has not been the only ball carrier for his teams and thus hasn't been ran into the ground. The only year he carried the majority of the load for his team was 2006. That year he had 1216 yards rushing and 288 yards receiving. He has a career avg. of 4.4 yards a carry. Over the last three years he has averaged 849 yards rushing and 287 yards receiving.

All in all I would rather keep Sage but IF the Vikings keep uping the ante I can see where we could end up better for it in the long run. I am not willing to pin all my hopes for next seanon on ANY of the Texans current RBs (including FA Dayne). I had high hopes for Green that just like for DD/W, turned to dust. Dayne has proven time and time again that when we need one yard, he can't be counted on to get it. The kids that were back ups last season haven't proven anything on the field either. We can hope they will turn into stars all we want, but that has gotten us nowhere before. Sure Green may come back strong and Dayne may be re-signed as his back up and the kids may come back healthy and get a shot but as of right now, deep in your heart, do you really believe that any team in the NFL is worried about stopping our RBs.

Nope. Just pin your ears back and hit the QB.

:fans:

Vinny
03-10-2008, 01:10 PM
I am not in favor of trading Sage but after looking a Taylors stats I can definately think of worse returns on our investment IF we traded Sage for Taylor.

He is 28. He has started 31 games in his career out of a possible 96.
However he has played in 91 games out of 96. That shows he mostly stays healthy but also that he has not been the only ball carrier for his teams and thus hasn't been ran into the ground. The only year he carried the majority of the load for his team was 2006. That year he had 1216 yards rushing and 288 yards receiving. He has a career avg. of 4.4 yards a carry. Over the last three years he has averaged 849 yards rushing and 287 yards receiving.

All in all I would rather keep Sage but IF the Vikings keep uping the ante I can see where we could end up better for it in the long run. I am not willing to pin all my hopes for next seanon on ANY of the Texans current RBs (including FA Dayne). I had high hopes for Green that just like for DD/W, turned to dust. Dayne has proven time and time again that when we need one yard, he can't be counted on to get it. The kids that were back ups last season haven't proven anything on the field either. We can hope they will turn into stars all we want, but that has gotten us nowhere before. Sure Green may come back strong and Dayne may be re-signed as his back up and the kids may come back healthy and get a shot but as of right now, deep in your heart, do you really believe that any team in the NFL is worried about stopping our RBs.

Nope. Just pin your ears back and hit the QB.

:fans:we had to go through 5 years of lousy quarterbacking...do you really want this team to have a mediocre backup behind the seemingly fragile Schaub for a back that you could probably draft in the third or 4th round? Heck, Taylor was a 5th rounder. When it comes to backs I say grow yer own.

Silver Oak
03-10-2008, 01:24 PM
we had to go through 5 years of lousy quarterbacking...do you really want this team to have a mediocre backup behind the seemingly fragile Schaub for a back that you could probably draft in the third or 4th round? Heck, Taylor was a 5th rounder. When it comes to backs I say grow yer own.

calling Schaub "seemingly fragile" is pretty weak IMO.

If he had taken an average hit on either of the two plays that knocked him out, I would tend to agree with you, but c'mon Vinny, the hit in SD would've knocked any player in the league out, and having Fat Albert drive his weight into any qb's shoulder would KO most out as well.

You could be right, and only another season or two will tell, but I think we have a pretty tough qb who can take as good a shot as any other qb in the NFL can.

J-Russ
03-10-2008, 01:26 PM
Would you give Sage for Chester Taylor strait up?:texflag:

So, hows it like living under a rock?

Overalls
03-10-2008, 01:28 PM
we had to go through 5 years of lousy quarterbacking...do you really want this team to have a mediocre backup behind the seemingly fragile Schaub for a back that you could probably draft in the third or 4th round? Heck, Taylor was a 5th rounder. When it comes to backs I say grow yer own.

You must have missed this little statement in my post that you quoted.

All in all I would rather keep Sage

And you are right we have done so well drafting RBs why should I not have faith in us drafting one in the 4th round.

I have stated in more than one post that I wouldn't mind if we drafted a RB in the first or traded down in the first and picked up a 2nd and used that on a RB. It has also been noted in numerous threads that the Texans have multiple holes on the team. I realize that this trade would help take care of one and create another but we could be trading a back up QB for a starting RB. To turn around your statement about our QB situation and put it as a RB question. Do you really want a mediocre RB backing up a seemingly fragile Green? Neither possition is considered a strength. Both possitions could be a strength IF the listed starter stays healthy. Right now we can't count on either players staying healthy. Hypothetical situations are just that, hypothetical. I seem to have more faith in Schaub and you seem to have more faith in someone who hasn't been drafted yet.

Vinny
03-10-2008, 03:10 PM
calling Schaub "seemingly fragile" is pretty weak IMO.

So you think that Schaub is one of the more durable QB's of the NFL I assume.

Specnatz
03-10-2008, 03:14 PM
So you think that Schaub is one of the more durable QB's of the NFL I assume.

Can one season, and a cheap shot make a player fragile? Is there enough data to say either way?

Texan_Bill
03-10-2008, 03:21 PM
Can one season, and a cheap shot make a player fragile? Is there enough data to say either way?

I'm on that same fence, thus my unwillingness to deal Rosenfels this season.

Vinny
03-10-2008, 03:22 PM
Can one season, and a cheap shot make a player fragile? Is there enough data to say either way?
I said "seemingly". Isn't that different than calling him fragile in an absolute type of manner?

Specnatz
03-10-2008, 03:25 PM
I said "seemingly". Isn't that different than calling him fragile in an absolute type of manner?

I guess, just not how I would have worded it, but if you ment not sure or personel doubts. Then I understand.

The1ApplePie
03-10-2008, 03:27 PM
Schaub apparently couldn't take a hit in college either.

Cheapshots, yeah, but a QB get's cheapshoted a lot. He went down and didn't get up after plenty of legal hits too.

Double Barrel
03-10-2008, 03:42 PM
Schaub needs to learn to run backwards after he lets go of a pass, ala Brett Favre.

Silver Oak
03-10-2008, 04:00 PM
Schaub apparently couldn't take a hit in college either.

Cheapshots, yeah, but a QB get's cheapshoted a lot. He went down and didn't get up after plenty of legal hits too.

I go too far in defending my teams players, so if I'm wrong, please give me some evidence that points to his being injury prone...or at least more so than any other college/NFL qb.

infantrycak
03-10-2008, 04:06 PM
Schaub apparently couldn't take a hit in college either.

Schaub had one injury in college. He went on to set 22 school records including most games played.

Cheapshots, yeah, but a QB get's cheapshoted a lot. He went down and didn't get up after plenty of legal hits too.

One is plenty now? He went down and came out of the game three times--two on flagged personal fouls and then once on the sack that hurt his shoulder.

Houston TexanUK
03-10-2008, 04:06 PM
In answer to the question in the first post... No.

You take Chester Taylor away from that OL in Minnesota, and he wont get anywhere NEAR the YPC he had last year.

badboy
03-10-2008, 04:08 PM
Left tackle and strong RB in draft will resolve a lot of this.

Texan_Bill
03-10-2008, 04:18 PM
Schaub needs to learn to run backwards after he lets go of a pass, ala Brett Favre.

I just watched some Schaub highlights (you tube) and you are spot on. When he drops straight back and throws, he tends to watch the flight of the ball down field which is fine but he is somewhat oblivious to the traffic around him.

Hooston Texan
03-10-2008, 04:31 PM
Schaub apparently couldn't take a hit in college either.

Cheapshots, yeah, but a QB get's cheapshoted a lot. He went down and didn't get up after plenty of legal hits too.

I resolved to stay out of any "Trade Sage" threads, but I have to weigh in on this. Schaub took a ton of hits in his 3 seasons as UVA's QB. Only one of them knocked him out of a game--when he separated his right shoulder (not the same one he hurt this past year) in the first game of his senior season. He only missed two games even though the doctors were advising an absence of up to two months. Once he returned in game 4, he took all the snaps the rest of the way.

In his junior year (when he won ACC MVP over classmate Philip Rivers), Schaub was playing behind an all-new offensive line featuring an 18-year-old left tackle who had trouble getting his weight over the 240 pound mark and no running game to speak of. He got routinely clocked, but that's where you could see the light come on for him: his quick-reading ability was born that year. [To me, this is what makes Schaub the anti-Carr: Schaub became a better QB when defenses teed off on him, Carr went to pieces.]

That having been said, even I don't believe that Schaub has proven that he can make it through 16 games for us. The only way to prove you can do something in the NFL is to do it, and he has not yet done it. So I wouldn't trade Sage for anything less than a early-to-mid 2nd rounder. And I certainly wouldn't trade him for Chester Taylor. If Schaub rolls through 2008 without missing time, then my asking price for Sage goes down (of course, the demand for him probably goes down, too).

Hervoyel
03-10-2008, 04:44 PM
I would say that the only thing we really know for certain at this point is that Schaub is not "uncommonly durable". Everything else we find out this year.

Maddict5
03-10-2008, 04:48 PM
id hate chester-sage straight up... gimme a 2nd or go away

Double Barrel
03-10-2008, 05:15 PM
I just watched some Schaub highlights (you tube) and you are spot on. When he drops straight back and throws, he tends to watch the flight of the ball down field which is fine but he is somewhat oblivious to the traffic around him.

I watched a bunch of the tribute stuff for Favre's career on NFLN this past weekend, and that's one of the things that stuck out. His coaches and fellow players talked about his tendency to run backwards after a pass, away from pressure and big linemen colliding with each other. Many of his former backup QBs speculated that this was a big factor in helping to prevent injuries.

Pretty smart, and something I've never really thought about.

badboy
03-10-2008, 05:17 PM
Quarterback???

We don't need no stinkin' Quarterback!

Just snap the ball directly to Peterson.

We'd use the extra position to add another lineman to protect him. Maybe a second LT.

It's bound to be just as easy to teach him to throw and dodge the onslaught of defenders as it is to find a QB to do it.

:::J/K guys...don't flame me!:::
:) Are you not suppose to be stirring up things in that "other" thread? heheheheh

Porky
03-10-2008, 05:29 PM
If Matt Schaub becomes Chris Chandelier do you want to leave the most important position on the team to a journeyman, or someone who has now proven he can take the reins and perform decently?

Chester Taylor = Dominick Davis when healthy.

Nope, I'm not going to bet my season on the ability of Schaub to stay healthy. We can get a Chester Taylor in the 4th or 5th round in a deep class. He is decent, but not special.

Now, Taylor plus one of their 3rd's MIGHT get my attention. That would allow us to solve the RB problem at least in the short term, and the extra 3rd could be used in a variety of ways - a LT, C, CB, S, LB, or well...even a new backup QB. :gun:

BeerTastesLikeVictory
03-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Quarterback???

We don't need no stinkin' Quarterback!

Just snap the ball directly to Peterson.

We'd use the extra position to add another lineman to protect him. Maybe a second LT.

It's bound to be just as easy to teach him to throw and dodge the onslaught of defenders as it is to find a QB to do it.

:::J/K guys...don't flame me!:::
:)

Seems to work for the Titans

DocBar
03-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Wasn't one of the big selling points for Kubiak, Smith, and now Gibbs, that they can find gems at RB in the late rounds and make them pro bowlers because of the ZBS? We now have THE guru of the ZBS on our staff. It makes NO sense to me to go trading a very good backup QB for a former 5th round RB with some mileage on him. I am also concerned with Schaubs shoulder. The Texans have a history of things not going as planned with players coming off of surgery. It would take what we gave to get Schaub for me to trade Sgae this year. With or without swapping 1st round draft position. :cowboy1:

ATXtexanfan
03-10-2008, 06:41 PM
it must be slow if this thread was reborn to 3 pages so quickly

Hervoyel
03-10-2008, 08:52 PM
If Matt Schaub becomes Chris Chandelier do you want to leave the most important position on the team to a journeyman, or someone who has now proven he can take the reins and perform decently?

Chester Taylor = Dominick Davis when healthy.

Nope, I'm not going to bet my season on the ability of Schaub to stay healthy. We can get a Chester Taylor in the 4th or 5th round in a deep class. He is decent, but not special.

Now, Taylor plus one of their 3rd's MIGHT get my attention. That would allow us to solve the RB problem at least in the short term, and the extra 3rd could be used in a variety of ways - a LT, C, CB, S, LB, or well...even a new backup QB. :gun:


Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.
Regardless of whether Matt Schaub is fragile, or not.
Regardless of whether Chester Taylor is all he's made out to be, or not.

We are in deep doo-doo if Sage Rosenfels is the long term solution at QB in the event that the Matt Schaub Project doesn't go as planned. If we traded Sage tomorrow for "whatever" and then Matt went down (for good) we would be looking for a new QB in the very next draft. Whoever is our backup would be a stop-gap measure and nothing more.

I am certain that Gary Kubiak likes Sage a lot. I don't doubt for a moment that he respects him and hopes that Sage gets what he wants (which is obviously to start for an NFL team).

Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.

It's not going to happen no matter how bad anyone wants to see it. It would make fools of both Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak who went out and traded for Matt Schaub when they already had Sage at a bargain price. That they went out and traded for Schaub in the first place says volumes about the odds of Rosenfels ever starting here. If Sage's value is high then he will be traded if it can make the Texans a better team. I'd bet the farm on it.

Joe Texan
03-10-2008, 09:10 PM
Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.


No regardless, we're not


Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.



you better ride that horse while it is ridable

CloakNNNdagger
03-10-2008, 09:11 PM
Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.
Regardless of whether Matt Schaub is fragile, or not.
Regardless of whether Chester Taylor is all he's made out to be, or not.

We are in deep doo-doo if Sage Rosenfels is the long term solution at QB in the event that the Matt Schaub Project doesn't go as planned. If we traded Sage tomorrow for "whatever" and then Matt went down (for good) we would be looking for a new QB in the very next draft. Whoever is our backup would be a stop-gap measure and nothing more.

I am certain that Gary Kubiak likes Sage a lot. I don't doubt for a moment that he respects him and hopes that Sage gets what he wants (which is obviously to start for an NFL team).

Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.

It's not going to happen no matter how bad anyone wants to see it. It would make fools of both Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak who went out and traded for Matt Schaub when they already had Sage at a bargain price. That they went out and traded for Schaub in the first place says volumes about the odds of Rosenfels ever starting here. If Sage's value is high then he will be traded if it can make the Texans a better team. I'd bet the farm on it.

I would hope that this would not factor in for their decision one way or the other. Otherwise, we'd be repeating what other entities previously allowed for 5 long years.

Polo
03-10-2008, 09:23 PM
I don't think there is a definite answer to this riddle....

Depends on whats being offered...

If trading Sage clearly gives us a chance at being a better team for it, get er done...

If trading Sage just equals making a move because you think he's an "extra" commodity...don't do it...

We don't need to be the ones taking chances...Let the Vikings be the ones taking a chance on Sage...

El Amigo Invisible
03-10-2008, 09:23 PM
Two Second Rounders

Goldensilence
03-10-2008, 10:50 PM
Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.
Regardless of whether Matt Schaub is fragile, or not.
Regardless of whether Chester Taylor is all he's made out to be, or not.

We are in deep doo-doo if Sage Rosenfels is the long term solution at QB in the event that the Matt Schaub Project doesn't go as planned. If we traded Sage tomorrow for "whatever" and then Matt went down (for good) we would be looking for a new QB in the very next draft. Whoever is our backup would be a stop-gap measure and nothing more.

I am certain that Gary Kubiak likes Sage a lot. I don't doubt for a moment that he respects him and hopes that Sage gets what he wants (which is obviously to start for an NFL team).

Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.

It's not going to happen no matter how bad anyone wants to see it. It would make fools of both Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak who went out and traded for Matt Schaub when they already had Sage at a bargain price. That they went out and traded for Schaub in the first place says volumes about the odds of Rosenfels ever starting here. If Sage's value is high then he will be traded if it can make the Texans a better team. I'd bet the farm on it.

I really think that needs to looked at again by the Sage for president fans Herv.

At this point I think the Vikings and Texans are playing Chicken as the draft approaches. What has really helped us has been the other backups available have pretty much all but signed.

Scouring their roster there's a a few guys I wouldn't mind them packing a third with like say a Matt Birk(dreaming I know but they could be wanting to get Dan Mozes some PT?) or Darren Sharper.

DocBar
03-10-2008, 11:55 PM
Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.
Regardless of whether Matt Schaub is fragile, or not.
Regardless of whether Chester Taylor is all he's made out to be, or not.

We are in deep doo-doo if Sage Rosenfels is the long term solution at QB in the event that the Matt Schaub Project doesn't go as planned. If we traded Sage tomorrow for "whatever" and then Matt went down (for good) we would be looking for a new QB in the very next draft. Whoever is our backup would be a stop-gap measure and nothing more.

I am certain that Gary Kubiak likes Sage a lot. I don't doubt for a moment that he respects him and hopes that Sage gets what he wants (which is obviously to start for an NFL team).

Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.

It's not going to happen no matter how bad anyone wants to see it. It would make fools of both Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak who went out and traded for Matt Schaub when they already had Sage at a bargain price. That they went out and traded for Schaub in the first place says volumes about the odds of Rosenfels ever starting here. If Sage's value is high then he will be traded if it can make the Texans a better team. I'd bet the farm on it.
I've got agree with C&D on this one, Herv. Kubes came in and laid it out that the best players would be on the field regardless of contract, draft position, etc. Also, I think Kubes looked pretty foolish to me with the whole player I won't talk about any more fiasco. If he was gonna look a fool, THAT was when he did it. Give him credit for having the stones to rectify the situation ASAP. Maybe he was "forced" into take "TPIWM", I don't know. I don't know that Sage OR Schaub is the final answer to our QB position. Both showed a disturbing tendency to force a pass in the red zone. Schaub got VERY lucky in the 1st three weeks. I know it was his 1st year as a starter and all. I am against trading Sage because if Schaub isn't full speed due to his surgery or whatever, we have a QB waiting in the wings that will at least keep us in every game and give us a chance to win many of them. We have high expectations for the '08 season and I don't want them resting on a QB coming off of surgery and a concussion with a new QB as his back up.

ubecool454
03-11-2008, 07:48 AM
Would you give Sage for Chester Taylor strait up?:texflag:

I would do it, then sign deangelo hall...then we can just take the BPA in the draft or trade out of the first round . Maybe we can find a team to trade our first rounder this year for a second or third and their first next year and have two first rounders next season. Sage and our first rounder this year for chester taylor and the vikes first rounder next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see us trade out of the first round this year to keep from having to pay first round money. Next year we should be able to afford two first rounders. We don't have to draft the big names all the time....I like those players that make a name when they start getting paid to do it. I like sage ...i like him so much i would like to see him be able to go to another team where he can compete for a starting spot...I bet he would like that too. I really don't think Kubiak is thinking "I have to have a stud RB". If we go Chester Taylor, Cris Taylor, Ahman Green and Walker..sounds like a stable of backs to wear a defense down just keeping them fresh. RB by committee.

GP
03-11-2008, 10:16 AM
LOL.

This is like the movie "Groundhog Day."

Porky
03-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Regardless of whether we trade Sage Rosenfels, or not.
Regardless of whether Matt Schaub is fragile, or not.
Regardless of whether Chester Taylor is all he's made out to be, or not.

We are in deep doo-doo if Sage Rosenfels is the long term solution at QB in the event that the Matt Schaub Project doesn't go as planned. If we traded Sage tomorrow for "whatever" and then Matt went down (for good) we would be looking for a new QB in the very next draft. Whoever is our backup would be a stop-gap measure and nothing more.

I am certain that Gary Kubiak likes Sage a lot. I don't doubt for a moment that he respects him and hopes that Sage gets what he wants (which is obviously to start for an NFL team).

Gary is not going to start Sage Rosenfels on a regular basis.

It's not going to happen no matter how bad anyone wants to see it. It would make fools of both Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak who went out and traded for Matt Schaub when they already had Sage at a bargain price. That they went out and traded for Schaub in the first place says volumes about the odds of Rosenfels ever starting here. If Sage's value is high then he will be traded if it can make the Texans a better team. I'd bet the farm on it.


Don't get me wrong Herv. I am not a member of the Sage for President fan club. But I do think he is one of the better backups in the league. You need a guy like that who can come off the bench and spot start and keep you competitive in those games. I'm not saying Sage should start. If both are healthy, I'm a Schaub guy.

If Shcaub goes down with a career injury, we are looking for a QB either way. I realize that. But, if you trade Sage away, you are either looking at starting a rookie QB or a true journeyman veteran. Niether scenerio is conducive to winning. Do we want to yet again go through the proverbial rebuuilding program? Sage may not be an elite QB as a starter, but you can win with him if you have some pieces around him which we do. He is better than Trent Dilfer, who won a SB with a dominant defense.

I think the following article written in early Oct last year kind of sums it up nicely. You need two decent QB's to win unless you get lucky and get a Manning or Brady, ultra durable guys who never go down.


Already, 13 teams -- Buffalo, Carolina, Kansas City, Minnesota, Arizona, Saint Louis, Oakland, San Francisco, Miami, Baltimore, Detroit, the Giants and the Jets -- have had to dip into the depth chart for help. Add the Bears and Browns, who felt compelled to make a change at QB, and you're looking at close to half the league -- after just five weeks -- under stress at the position.

As I look at the position, there are 53 quarterbacks who have played in games this season. In other words, 21 backups have seen action in games in the first five weeks.

link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=3777BBA8A19D99519BED9A3E4BF501CD? id=09000d5d80319a9e&template=without-video&confirm=true)

Thorn
03-11-2008, 11:05 AM
If Shcaub goes down with a career injury, we are looking for a QB either way. I realize that. But, if you trade Sage away, you are either looking at starting a rookie QB or a true journeyman veteran. Niether scenerio is conducive to winning. Do we want to yet again go through the proverbial rebuuilding program? Sage may not be an elite QB as a starter, but you can win with him if you have some pieces around him which we do. He is better than Trent Dilfer, who won a SB with a dominant defense.



Exactly. Sage is an insurance policy we dare not drop. It's like living in a known flood plain, why on earth would you take a chance and not have flood insurance? Until Schaub proves himself, which he hasn't yet, we still need Sage.

badboy
03-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Most posters appear to believe that Sage is a good insurance policy in the event that Schaub gets T-boned in a fender bender; but not the "car" to drive the remaining games of the season (unless the collision is late in season). I do realize there are some that think Sage is better than Schaub, but that I doubt as Texans went after Schaub like me after fried chicken and gave up two day one picks. That does not boost my confidence in Sage being more than an insurance policy.

Many are concerned about Schaub's ability to stay on field; which is justified but not any derogatory comments such as "fragile". I know Kube's philosophy seems to be no more than two QBs on roster with maybe one project on P.S.
At what point does Smith draft a QB to groom in case Schaub is not able to stay on field? I think things remain the same as Sage has two more years under this contract and Schaub will be given that time to prove he can stay in the game. Also, I think a sweeter deal will be offered to Houston for Sage, maybe on draft day. It will be very interesting and entertaining on this board to see what happens then.

BTW are not most veteran FA QBs now off the market? Trent Green recently signed a 3 year deal. Any June 1st QB cuts anticipated? There are some very interesting QBs that should be available in day two of draft.

GP
03-11-2008, 11:45 AM
So....how about that Chester Taylor guy?

Or is this going to be a Sage/Schaub thread (again) ?

Maddict5
03-11-2008, 03:41 PM
If Shcaub goes down with a career injury, we are looking for a QB either way. I realize that. But, if you trade Sage away, you are either looking at starting a rookie QB or a true journeyman veteran. Niether scenerio is conducive to winning. Do we want to yet again go through the proverbial rebuuilding program? Sage may not be an elite QB as a starter, but you can win with him if you have some pieces around him which we do. He is better than Trent Dilfer, who won a SB with a dominant defense.


sage was the definition of a journeyman qb when he came here and look at what kubiak did for him and how he improved.. compare how david looked in his last yr with kubiak (bad but looked like an nfl backup qb) to how he looked at carolina (pop warner level).. face it gary can make most qbs play at their optimum level imo

and if we trade sage, i think we can go out and get a rookie or especially a harrington-type qb and they'll do a job if necessary

PHAROAH
03-11-2008, 03:52 PM
Sage has gotten better in Houston and if we can get a low 2nd rounder or a 3rd round pick for a career backup I say do it in a heartbeat and we can take that pick and get a player of need. Lets move this guy before we can't nothing for him there are other NFL QB's that they can do the same as the texans did with Sage or we can draft a young signal caller in the 4th or 5th round.

badboy
03-11-2008, 03:56 PM
Sage has gotten better in Houston and if we can get a low 2nd rounder or a 3rd round pick for a career backup I say do it in a heartbeat and we can take that pick and get a player of need. Lets move this guy before we can't nothing for him there are other NFL QB's that they can do the same as the texans did with Sage or we can draft a young signal caller in the 4th or 5th round.Who are the "other NFL QBs"? I am not oppopsed for taking a 2nd for Sage and then drafting Colt Brennan in 4th but if that is done we have to risk Schaub being replaced by a rookie or sign a vet and I don't see many left.

Porky
03-11-2008, 04:21 PM
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush Grasshopper. :devilpig:

badboy
03-11-2008, 04:33 PM
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush Grasshopper. :devilpig:Bird in hand can lead to poop on toes.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2008, 04:34 PM
sage was the definition of a journeyman qb when he came here and look at what kubiak did for him and how he improved.. compare how david looked in his last yr with kubiak (bad but looked like an nfl backup qb) to how he looked at carolina (pop warner level).. face it gary can make most qbs play at their optimum level imo

and if we trade sage, i think we can go out and get a rookie or especially a harrington-type qb and they'll do a job if necessary

I'm not sure where I stand in this...except liking the idea of picks....and I realize Sage is insurance but you hit the nail on the head with the bolded comments. I mean people are acting like after 8 season in that Sage is this just stud we stumbled upon. I think coaching and system made him a little more than what we thought coming in. I'd trust them to be able to do it again if needed. But he does know the system now.

Hervoyel
03-11-2008, 04:36 PM
Guys, I just keep coming back to these things in my mind when the possibility of trading our backup QB comes up.

Rick Smith can find players. He's in his second season and we've talked almost endlessly about how he can find a player when the Texans need one.

Gary Kubiak can coach up a QB. He coached David Carr up to the level of "almost adequat" and that's saying a lot for that guy. He brought in Sage Rosenfels who was (already been mentioned) the definition of "average journeyman backup" and now people are inquiring about his availablity in a trade. Basically he's gone from an almost under-the-radar free agent signing to being a player with value in very little time.

Last year we traded Babin for Boulware and at that time both Smith and Kubiak explained that we had an area of the team we were deep at and we sacrificed some of that depth to shore up another area where we needed help. We have other areas of the team that need help, obviously.

When you have a backup QB who is capable of starting and other teams know it then you're going to lose him eventually unless you start him.

I just think they'll move him sometime between now and the draft. It just feels to me like the situation is perfect for a trade.

Dallas_Texan
03-11-2008, 04:43 PM
No They Don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They Don't Want To Trade Chester For Sage, So Lock Up This Frickin Thread

I Can't Take Opening This Page Everyday And Falling For It Again!! I'm Not At My Best In The Morning!

badboy
03-11-2008, 04:52 PM
Guys, I just keep coming back to these things in my mind when the possibility of trading our backup QB comes up.

Rick Smith can find players. He's in his second season and we've talked almost endlessly about how he can find a player when the Texans need one.

Gary Kubiak can coach up a QB. He coached David Carr up to the level of "almost adequat" and that's saying a lot for that guy. He brought in Sage Rosenfels who was (already been mentioned) the definition of "average journeyman backup" and now people are inquiring about his availablity in a trade. Basically he's gone from an almost under-the-radar free agent signing to being a player with value in very little time.

Last year we traded Babin for Boulware and at that time both Smith and Kubiak explained that we had an area of the team we were deep at and we sacrificed some of that depth to shore up another area where we needed help. We have other areas of the team that need help, obviously.

When you have a backup QB who is capable of starting and other teams know it then you're going to lose him eventually unless you start him.

I just think they'll move him sometime between now and the draft. It just feels to me like the situation is perfect for a trade.I agree with most of your view but when you have only two players where is the depth?

HoustonFrog
03-11-2008, 04:53 PM
Guys, I just keep coming back to these things in my mind when the possibility of trading our backup QB comes up.

Rick Smith can find players. He's in his second season and we've talked almost endlessly about how he can find a player when the Texans need one.

Gary Kubiak can coach up a QB. He coached David Carr up to the level of "almost adequat" and that's saying a lot for that guy. He brought in Sage Rosenfels who was (already been mentioned) the definition of "average journeyman backup" and now people are inquiring about his availablity in a trade. Basically he's gone from an almost under-the-radar free agent signing to being a player with value in very little time.

Last year we traded Babin for Boulware and at that time both Smith and Kubiak explained that we had an area of the team we were deep at and we sacrificed some of that depth to shore up another area where we needed help. We have other areas of the team that need help, obviously.

When you have a backup QB who is capable of starting and other teams know it then you're going to lose him eventually unless you start him.

I just think they'll move him sometime between now and the draft. It just feels to me like the situation is perfect for a trade.

Almost my feelings exactly

Porky
03-11-2008, 05:01 PM
I see a lot of revionsist history here. David Carr was absouloute dogcrap in 2006, except he stunk a whole lot worse. End of story. To say he was ok doesn't pass the smell test. That dog won't hunt so let's not even go there.

As for Sage, he fits the system to a tee. Why do you think Kubes recruited him in the first place? You cannot just coach up any QB and expect the same results. This isn't instant pudding. You don't open a box, add some milk and violet' instant QB. I don't get this passion for getting rid of Sage for a box of crackerjacks and a slinky. In Sage you have a very capable backup who, oh by the way, happens to fit the system the coach wants to run perfectly. He might not look good in another offense, who knows. But we know he fits wells here. In addition, you either get in trade what - an ok RB in the mold of a Dominick Davis or whatever name he goes by this week, or a draft choice which is sort of like being blindfolded and asked to go pick out the prettiest girl in the room. It's a total crapshoot.

And mark my words if this comes to fruition, the very same people wanting to trade Sage for next to nothing will be the same ones bitching and moaning when we have poor QB play if Schaub goes down. Nope, until Matt proves that he can last a year without getting nicked I am not interested in the least by these offers. Now, 2 #2 draft picks of course. But, I am of the mind that yes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2008, 05:10 PM
I see a lot of revionsist history here. David Carr was absouloute dogcrap in 2006, except he stunk a whole lot worse. End of story. To say he was ok doesn't pass the smell test. That dog won't hunt so let's not even go there.

As for Sage, he fits the system to a tee. Why do you think Kubes recruited him in the first place? You cannot just coach up any QB and expect the same results. This isn't instant pudding. You don't open a box, add some milk and violet' instant QB. I don't get this passion for getting rid of Sage for a box of crackerjacks and a slinky. In Sage you have a very capable backup who, oh by the way, happens to fit the system the coach wants to run perfectly. He might not look good in another offense, who knows. But we know he fits wells here. In addition, you either get in trade what - an ok RB in the mold of a Dominick Davis or whatever name he goes by this week, or a draft choice which is sort of like being blindfolded and asked to go pick out the prettiest girl in the room. It's a total crapshoot.

And mark my words if this comes to fruition, the very same people wanting to trade Sage for next to nothing will be the same ones bitching and moaning when we have poor QB play if Schaub goes down. Nope, until Matt proves that he can last a year without getting nicked I am not interested in the least by these offers. Now, 2 #2 draft picks of course. But, I am of the mind that yes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Well, as I said above, I'm torn but at the same time you are on a far spectrum regarding this. They thought Sage fit the system but there was no guarantee. The guy had been a journeyman. If you trust his taste in Sage then they might have Sage II eyed before they make this move. I think many of us still live in the Casserly world of "WTF is going to happen now." In reality, its all trust. I'm not saying I'd do THIS deal but I'd do a deal if the price is right...2nd rounder or such. Different thing all togther but there were some that thought the Rockets screwed up trading Bonzi Wells and now people act like the guy never existed. There is risk/reward in every thing you do.

I said last week or the week before that this is a year where it is make or break. No 8-8 pillow to lay or heads on. If Schaub goes down I think there is going to be alot of problems to start. Without planning that I'd like to think they are putting the best team they can out there and think that a pick or a certain player might put us over the top. I also don't think people believe Carr was good. They just saw that the team could revert to grind it out play with the right back and win.

PHAROAH
03-11-2008, 05:16 PM
Sage is nothing more than another A.J. Feely do you guys remember him? He started like six games while Donovan Mcnabb was hurt and the Miami Dolphins gave up 2nd round pick for him and he was a complete bust for the dolphins. I say hurry up grab a a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Sage because he didn't do much in Miami or Washington. Sage has only started 7 games since he has been in the NFL for 7 seasons so I would gladly take a 3rd round pick for him look at the stats they don't lie.


Career Statistics
Year Team G GS att cmp pct yds avg lg td rtg
2001 WAS 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0
2002 MIA 4 0 3 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 2.1
2003 MIA 2 0 6 4 66.7 50 12.5 21 1 131.9
2004 MIA 3 1 39 16 41.0 264 16.5 76 1 41.0
2005 MIA 4 1 61 34 55.7 462 13.6 77 4 81.5
2006 HOU 3 0 39 27 69.2 265 9.8 28 3 103.0
2007 HOU 10 5 240 154 64.2 1684 10.9 53 15 84.8
Totals 26 7 388 235 60.6 2,725 11.6 77 24 82.0

Maddict5
03-11-2008, 05:17 PM
I see a lot of revionsist history here. David Carr was absouloute dogcrap in 2006, except he stunk a whole lot worse. End of story. To say he was ok doesn't pass the smell test. That dog won't hunt so let's not even go there.

As for Sage, he fits the system to a tee. Why do you think Kubes recruited him in the first place? You cannot just coach up any QB and expect the same results. This isn't instant pudding. You don't open a box, add some milk and violet' instant QB. I don't get this passion for getting rid of Sage for a box of crackerjacks and a slinky. In Sage you have a very capable backup who, oh by the way, happens to fit the system the coach wants to run perfectly. He might not look good in another offense, who knows. But we know he fits wells here. In addition, you either get in trade what - an ok RB in the mold of a Dominick Davis or whatever name he goes by this week, or a draft choice which is sort of like being blindfolded and asked to go pick out the prettiest girl in the room. It's a total crapshoot.

And mark my words if this comes to fruition, the very same people wanting to trade Sage for next to nothing will be the same ones bitching and moaning when we have poor QB play if Schaub goes down. Nope, until Matt proves that he can last a year without getting nicked I am not interested in the least by these offers. Now, 2 #2 draft picks of course. But, I am of the mind that yes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

lol i said carr was 'bad but looked like nfl backup'material.. herv said 'nearly adequate'..neither is 'ok'

how does sage 'fit the system to a tee' more than other possible qb's we could get? like i said, i believe the system is a good system that brings out the best in most qb's

all we're saying is look at the history of this staff instead of your fear theory of 'WHEN schaub goes down, the new backup WILL play crap'...

based on this staff's history, you can say:
- whoever the qb is, they'll play almost at their optimum level within the system, whatever that optimum is (carr, sage, schaub)
- our staff has shown an innate ability to hit on nearly all their draft picks.. which is why it isnt a 'shot in the dark' like with other staff's especially if we manage to land a 2nd
- our staff have shown a good ability to find serviceable street FA's.. and i believe gary will find a suitable backup qb if he has to

look you probably wont change your opinion and i understand why.. but you can see the benefits of a potential trade too

Goldensilence
03-11-2008, 05:17 PM
I agree with most of your view but when you have only two players where is the depth?

As of March 6th QBs available:

Quinn Gray
Marques Tuiasosopo(If the Sage trade goes through this is whom i would target)
Brian St. Pierre
Jamie Martin
Jared Lorenzen
Mark Brunell
I believe Gus Ferrotte is a FA as well.
I thought I Saw that after April Jake Plummer's rights are free again.


Sage reminds me of Jon Kitna. Journeyman QB who can do okay but i wouldn't expect better then an 8-8 season from him.

Maddict5
03-11-2008, 05:21 PM
As of March 6th QBs available:

Quinn Gray
Marques Tuiasosopo(If the Sage trade goes through this is whom i would target)
Brian St. Pierre
Jamie Martin
Jared Lorenzen
Mark Brunell
I believe Gus Ferrotte is a FA as well.
I thought I Saw that after April Jake Plummer's rights are free again.


Sage reminds me of Jon Kitna. Journeyman QB who can do okay but i wouldn't expect better then an 8-8 season from him.

joey harrington too.. the falcons got some decent games out of him as we can attest to

badboy
03-11-2008, 05:23 PM
As of March 6th QBs available:

Quinn Gray
Marques Tuiasosopo(If the Sage trade goes through this is whom i would target)
Brian St. Pierre
Jamie Martin
Jared Lorenzen
Mark Brunell
I believe Gus Ferrotte is a FA as well.
I thought I Saw that after April Jake Plummer's rights are free again.


Sage reminds me of Jon Kitna. Journeyman QB who can do okay but i wouldn't expect better then an 8-8 season from him.Many thanks. I've never heard of most of these. It would be nice to know if Texans make a trade the day of draft that we have options.

PHAROAH
03-11-2008, 05:28 PM
I like the hefty lefty Jared Lorenzen & Quinn Gray they both have just as much potential as Sage Rosenfels so I say trade in a heartbeat if we can get 3rd round pick I say do it like yesterday and if we can steal a 2nd rounder that is absolute robbery. We did the same thing with Drew Henson a few years ago with Dallas absolutly stealing candy from a baby.

Porky
03-11-2008, 05:32 PM
As of March 6th QBs available:

Quinn Gray
Marques Tuiasosopo(If the Sage trade goes through this is whom i would target)
Brian St. Pierre
Jamie Martin
Jared Lorenzen
Mark Brunell
I believe Gus Ferrotte is a FA as well.
I thought I Saw that after April Jake Plummer's rights are free again.


Sage reminds me of Jon Kitna. Journeyman QB who can do okay but i wouldn't expect better then an 8-8 season from him.

I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.

PHAROAH
03-11-2008, 05:37 PM
I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.Porky we all like Sage but he can help us fill a need in this draft and there are couple of players on that list with coaching can be just as good as a backup. Quinn Gray and jared Lorenzen have both played in backup situations and they were solid.

Goldensilence
03-11-2008, 05:41 PM
I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.


More I think More i like the idea of Marques T. Guy is athletic and can make the bootleg rollouts Kubiak likes, has a nice arm, and has had about as much experience as Sage.

If we pushed it until draft day it is possible we could get either a second or multiple picks, heck maybe even a third and a player. Sage might want another crack at a starting job and will probably leave after this year anyway and we'll be in the same position at this time next year.Difference is at this point we'd be looking getting something for our loss and a chance to better another spot on the team.

Porky
03-11-2008, 05:47 PM
lol i said carr was 'bad but looked like nfl backup'material.. herv said 'nearly adequate'..neither is 'ok'

how does sage 'fit the system to a tee' more than other possible qb's we could get? like i said, i believe the system is a good system that brings out the best in most qb's

all we're saying is look at the history of this staff instead of your fear theory of 'WHEN schaub goes down, the new backup WILL play crap'...

based on this staff's history, you can say:
- whoever the qb is, they'll play almost at their optimum level within the system, whatever that optimum is (carr, sage, schaub)
- our staff has shown an innate ability to hit on nearly all their draft picks.. which is why it isnt a 'shot in the dark' like with other staff's especially if we manage to land a 2nd
- our staff have shown a good ability to find serviceable street FA's.. and i believe gary will find a suitable backup qb if he has to

look you probably wont change your opinion and i understand why.. but you can see the benefits of a potential trade too

Decent points, but if they trade him, I hope they get more than a 5th round RB in exchange. If they got him plus a 3rd, I'd likely take it or 2 3rds. I would not do it for one 3rd myself or the RB alone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but sometimes something can have more value to you than it's intrisic worth on the open market. Maybe an older car that you fixed up isn't considered one of the classics that holds it value, and it's only worth $2000 out on the open market, but maybe because it's worth more to you, you would only sell it if offered $4000 and are kind of even hoping nobody meets that asking price. That's how I feel about Sage.

Hervoyel
03-11-2008, 05:51 PM
It's a dangerous thing falling in love with a backup QB. You think that you see something that everyone else has simply overlooked. In the vast majority of cases you're seeing an illusion. Every once in a while somebody has a Brett Favre sitting on the end of their depth chart waiting to be given a shot but it doesn't happen very often. Mostly you're looking at A.J. Feeley or Scott Mitchell or, god forbid Cody Carlson.

I'm not calling for the Texans to trade Sage. I'm not going to be upset if he stays (or goes for that matter). I'm just saying that I get the feeling he'll probably be moved before the draft. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. I just think it's going to happen.

Porky
03-11-2008, 06:01 PM
It's a dangerous thing falling in love with a backup QB. You think that you see something that everyone else has simply overlooked. In the vast majority of cases you're seeing an illusion. Every once in a while somebody has a Brett Favre sitting on the end of their depth chart waiting to be given a shot but it doesn't happen very often. Mostly you're looking at A.J. Feeley or Scott Mitchell or, god forbid Cody Carlson.

I'm not calling for the Texans to trade Sage. I'm not going to be upset if he stays (or goes for that matter). I'm just saying that I get the feeling he'll probably be moved before the draft. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. I just think it's going to happen.


I don't think he is Brett Favre. I do however think he is one of the better backups in the league, at least with us. So, now your are trading a known quantity for an unknown quantity at the most important position on the field...and in which the starter has yet to prove he is durable. Does everyone forget the Texans record when Sage started last year? If the price is right, of course I would trade him. What has been stated in the media isn't enough for me though.

Thorn
03-11-2008, 06:05 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with everything Porky has been saying, most especially his point about a value for Sage. He is worth more than a 3rd round pick to us. He is someone who already knows the system and the players and can start a string of games while Schaub is out and give us a very decent probability of a few wins.

I donít care what anybody says about Schaub, he has not yet proven he is a starter that can go the whole season.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2008, 06:11 PM
Decent points, but if they trade him, I hope they get more than a 5th round RB in exchange. If they got him plus a 3rd, I'd likely take it or 2 3rds. I would not do it for one 3rd myself or the RB alone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but sometimes something can have more value to you than it's intrisic worth on the open market. Maybe an older car that you fixed up isn't considered one of the classics that holds it value, and it's only worth $2000 out on the open market, but maybe because it's worth more to you, you would only sell it if offered $4000 and are kind of even hoping nobody meets that asking price. That's how I feel about Sage.

Very good points Porkster.

Different teams have different needs... even if they have the same or similar needs it may be in a different capacity.

I think if anything does happen with Sage, it could be on Draft Day and could set up for a really interesting day(s).

At the same time though, if we keep him- some team may come calling during the season or next offseason needing his services more. Sage would be a FA after next season I believe. His price could go up (or go down).

Errant Hothy
03-11-2008, 06:11 PM
joey harrington too.. the falcons got some decent games out of him as we can attest to

Not any longer, Harrington re-upped with the Falcons today.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Home_NFL.aspx

Falcons re-signed Joey Harrington to an undisclosed contract, according to NFL Network's Adam Schefter.

Errant Hothy
03-11-2008, 06:14 PM
I wouldn't take any of those above Sage myself.

But it's not just Sage, it would be Sage and a pick for a veteran QB.

The pick would have to be of the right value to make the deal work. A third would make me happy, but I can understand Rick Smith holding out for a 2nd.

DocBar
03-11-2008, 07:18 PM
Porky said it great. Rep your way. I don't think you can compare the Henson trade to this scenario at all. On a side note to all this, I was listening to Sirius NFL today and they made a statement that really jumped out at me.
According to them, HALF of the players drafted in the 1st round 6 years ago aren't even in the league anymore.That's amazing. I knew that the average NFL career was 3.5 years or so, but I guess I ASSumed that 1st and 2nd rounders would be sticking around longer and lower draft picks would have shorter careers on average.
I have no desire to trade a player who really stepped up and was a major factor in the Texans posting their best ever record. We don't have a proven
QB right now. I think Schaub could be that guy, but as of now, he's shown himself to be exactly what he is. A talented QB with little starting experience and a ton of potential. Add to that the fact that he's coming off of shoulder surgery, I wouldn't trade away Sage for less than what we got Schaub for. Next offseason, all bets are off.

El Amigo Invisible
03-11-2008, 07:29 PM
Porky said it great. Rep your way. I don't think you can compare the Henson trade to this scenario at all. On a side note to all this, I was listening to Sirius NFL today and they made a statement that really jumped out at me.
According to them, HALF of the players drafted in the 1st round 6 years ago aren't even in the league anymore.That's amazing. I knew that the average NFL career was 3.5 years or so, but I guess I ASSumed that 1st and 2nd rounders would be sticking around longer and lower draft picks would have shorter careers on average.
I have no desire to trade a player who really stepped up and was a major factor in the Texans posting their best ever record. We don't have a proven
QB right now. I think Schaub could be that guy, but as of now, he's shown himself to be exactly what he is. A talented QB with little starting experience and a ton of potential. Add to that the fact that he's coming off of shoulder surgery, I wouldn't trade away Sage for less than what we got Schaub for. Next offseason, all bets are off.

That's why I think Two second rounders are in order.We got Schaub for two second rounders and he was unproven.Sage has proven that he can start in this league.

infantrycak
03-11-2008, 08:21 PM
He is worth more than a 3rd round pick to us.

Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.

DocBar
03-11-2008, 08:32 PM
Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.
You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round. And why do we need another starting WR or TE? He IS a very good backup QB who knows the system we run inside out AND has a good rapport with the team and, most importantly, timing and feel for the recievers. THAT makes him worth more to us than a 3rd rounder. I'm all for trading if the price is right, but Chester Taylor and a 3rd isn't the right price for me. We have needs on this team, but I don't see trading Sage at such a cheap price as a viable way of filling them.

Thorn
03-11-2008, 08:39 PM
Really? He is worth more than a starting RT, a starting TE, a starting WR? Good guy to have but not sure I would make that definitive a statement.

The problem with the draft is you don't know what you are getting until they put pads on and play against other NFL players. Reggie Bush is a prime example. I wouldn't take just a 3rd for Sage, it would have to be more.

Because if I trade Sage, I not only have to get value for the pick I traded him for, but I also have to get another QB that can step up to the plate. Frankly, he is worth more to us than he is to another team so I don't think I'd get what I wanted for him if the trade was up to me.

Which it isn't. LOL

Hervoyel
03-11-2008, 08:54 PM
You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round. And why do we need another starting WR or TE? He IS a very good backup QB who knows the system we run inside out AND has a good rapport with the team and, most importantly, timing and feel for the recievers. THAT makes him worth more to us than a 3rd rounder. I'm all for trading if the price is right, but Chester Taylor and a 3rd isn't the right price for me. We have needs on this team, but I don't see trading Sage at such a cheap price as a viable way of filling them.

Well, last year at the 3 we got Jacoby Jones who everyone was ready to anoint as the next great WR to appear from a small "nowhere" school. Granted he's not a starter (yet) and he may never be if Davis and Walter continue to produce. At the 4 we got Fred Bennett who I believe ended the season as a starter and who will probably begin this coming season as one. Yes, we have had injuries. No, I don't see a lot of people upset that Fred is starting.

In 2006 we got Eric Winston and Charles Spencer back to back in the 3rd round and, but for a freak injury to Spencer we would have hit on a pair of starters in the 3rd. We also found Owen Daniels in the 4th who is a starter, or at the very least a heavy contributor.

In two drafts Kubiak and Kubiak+Smith have been 4 out of 5 in finding starters in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the draft. If Spencer comes back and can play again we will be looking at actually getting to see 4 "net" starters but I can't hold an injury against the guy's draft position.

If the Texans traded Sage for Minnesota's 3 I am pretty confident that we could get a starter there. You might have noticed that these guys we have drafting for us now are doing a pretty good job.

DocBar
03-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Well, last year at the 3 we got Jacoby Jones who everyone was ready to anoint as the next great WR to appear from a small "nowhere" school. Granted he's not a starter (yet) and he may never be if Davis and Walter continue to produce. At the 4 we got Fred Bennett who I believe ended the season as a starter and who will probably begin this coming season as one. Yes, we have had injuries. No, I don't see a lot of people upset that Fred is starting.

In 2006 we got Eric Winston and Charles Spencer back to back in the 3rd round and, but for a freak injury to Spencer we would have hit on a pair of starters in the 3rd. We also found Owen Daniels in the 4th who is a starter, or at the very least a heavy contributor.

In two drafts Kubiak and Kubiak+Smith have been 4 out of 5 in finding starters in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the draft. If Spencer comes back and can play again we will be looking at actually getting to see 4 "net" starters but I can't hold an injury against the guy's draft position.

If the Texans traded Sage for Minnesota's 3 I am pretty confident that we could get a starter there. You might have noticed that these guys we have drafting for us now are doing a pretty good job.
Yer, Herv, I'm quite aware of all of these players and their draft positions. I also realize that Winston and Spencer were both slated to go earlier in the draft and that we fortunate they were still on the board. I also realize that Reggie Bush was the greatest athelete on the planet and a can't miss-surefire Hall of Famer in 2006. The draft always has been and always will be a craps shoot. We NEED Sage as our backup QB until we have a replacement for him. I think we have a team that can win this year and make a push for a playoff spot. I think Schaub can lead us there IF he's recovered from his surgery and can stay healthy. He's proven neither as of yet. I KNOW Sage can step in and get the job done if, for some reason or another, Schaub can't start a game or several games, as happened last season. Are you comfortable with Shane Boyd being your back up QB? I'll stand pat this season.

infantrycak
03-11-2008, 09:28 PM
You're making assumptions that we could GET a starter at any of those positions in the 3rd round.

No, I am looking at Kubiak and Smith's track record. But for an injury to Spencer, it is entirely likely 4 of 5 3rd and 4th round picks under their regime would have been starters last year.

And why do we need another starting WR or TE?

Helloooooo--point wasn't we need people at those positions--those were examples of getting starters in those rounds you so casually dismiss.

The problem with the draft is you don't know what you are getting until they put pads on and play against other NFL players. Reggie Bush is a prime example.

Yeah, and the problem with overvaluing backup QBs is they are sitting on the sideline with a clipboard.

We NEED Sage as our backup QB until we have a replacement for him.

That is as easy as a phone call away. Take the draft pick and then get on the horn to Leftwich, Culpepper or Tuiosopopo (or however the heck you spell his name). Upgrade your team with the draft pick while at most slightly downgrading your backup QB.

Hervoyel
03-11-2008, 09:44 PM
One thing I tried to go into earlier in this thread was that if Schaub just explodes while walking out onto the field next year and literally there isn't a scrap of him big enough to merit burying then this team is not going to go into 2009 with Sage Rosenfels as the starter. They're going to go find someone they want as their starter be it through free agency, a trade, or more than likely the draft.

Kubiak had a chance to go with Sage as the man. He passed and he did so at a pretty high cost. Nobody will convince me that Kubiak doesn't know exactly what he has in Sage Rosenfels and that he's going to just say "Well, it's pretty bad about Matt exploding and all <thumps podium and looks at feet> but we got Sage and he's the starter now." when camp starts in 2009. It's not going to happen.

The point is that everyone says "we NEED Sage.... just in case" but in the worst version of the worst case scenario here Sage is going to be a placeholder until they can bring in their next "franchise QB". He's not going to be the replacement for Schaub. What's more is that this next hypothetical franchise QB isn't going to have a lengthy multi-year spin up time before he's ready. He won't be David Carr getting 5 years to learn the position. In the rest of the NFL, in the real world nobody does that and now neither do we. We're not going to "need" Sage until the rookie (most likely) is "ready". They're going to do a Jay Cutler on him and he'll be playing by the end of his first season. Sage will be back on the bench holding the clipboard and waiting for free agency to strike again. Then he'll sign with somebody else so he can start which he has said he wants to do and we'll get nothing for him. That's nothing as in zip, nada, zero.

And we'll be looking through that pile of scraps for our newest insurance policy that Kubiak can coach up.

The people who believe that Sage will somehow beat out Schaub for the job or take us to the playoffs if Schaub goes down have already shown me that they can't see the difference between Sage's starts and Matt's starts.

I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.

dalemurphy
03-11-2008, 09:48 PM
I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.


What it did to me is make me appreciate the importance of solid QB play. Therefore, I don't want to add risk to the position even for a 3rd round pick. In my opinion, Jacoby Jones and Winston don't look to good on this team if we have bad QB play. So, unless there is an answer at backup QB, I don't want to trade a guy who is proven, the team believes in, and is signed cheap for two more years.

Polo
03-11-2008, 09:50 PM
I don't think he is Brett Favre. I do however think he is one of the better backups in the league, at least with us. So, now your are trading a known quantity for an unknown quantity at the most important position on the field...and in which the starter has yet to prove he is durable. Does everyone forget the Texans record when Sage started last year? If the price is right, of course I would trade him. What has been stated in the media isn't enough for me though.

My feelings to a T.

Hook'er
03-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Do we still have him under contract for 2 more years?

HoustonFrog
03-11-2008, 11:18 PM
One thing I tried to go into earlier in this thread was that if Schaub just explodes while walking out onto the field next year and literally there isn't a scrap of him big enough to merit burying then this team is not going to go into 2009 with Sage Rosenfels as the starter. They're going to go find someone they want as their starter be it through free agency, a trade, or more than likely the draft.

Kubiak had a chance to go with Sage as the man. He passed and he did so at a pretty high cost. Nobody will convince me that Kubiak doesn't know exactly what he has in Sage Rosenfels and that he's going to just say "Well, it's pretty bad about Matt exploding and all <thumps podium and looks at feet> but we got Sage and he's the starter now." when camp starts in 2009. It's not going to happen.

The point is that everyone says "we NEED Sage.... just in case" but in the worst version of the worst case scenario here Sage is going to be a placeholder until they can bring in their next "franchise QB". He's not going to be the replacement for Schaub. What's more is that this next hypothetical franchise QB isn't going to have a lengthy multi-year spin up time before he's ready. He won't be David Carr getting 5 years to learn the position. In the rest of the NFL, in the real world nobody does that and now neither do we. We're not going to "need" Sage until the rookie (most likely) is "ready". They're going to do a Jay Cutler on him and he'll be playing by the end of his first season. Sage will be back on the bench holding the clipboard and waiting for free agency to strike again. Then he'll sign with somebody else so he can start which he has said he wants to do and we'll get nothing for him. That's nothing as in zip, nada, zero.

And we'll be looking through that pile of scraps for our newest insurance policy that Kubiak can coach up.

The people who believe that Sage will somehow beat out Schaub for the job or take us to the playoffs if Schaub goes down have already shown me that they can't see the difference between Sage's starts and Matt's starts.

I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.

Sorry, must spread rep and this is all in the same thread.

Not only is that true on Carr but the previous coaching staffs. We all have been guilty of thinking we know more. As you said, he sees Sage everyday and never decided.."he is the starter." At this point, considering the last two drafts and their FA moves, you have to trust that they know what they are doing.

steelbtexan
03-11-2008, 11:22 PM
Sorry, must spread rep and this is all in the same thread.

Not only is that true on Carr but the previous coaching staffs. We all have been guilty of thinking we know more. As you said, he sees Sage everyday and never decided.."he is the starter." At this point, considering the last two drafts and their FA moves, you have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Well said

Joe Texan
03-12-2008, 12:22 AM
The playing feild is a free for all and Matt is the "Starter"

But if he sucks or is not completly healthy Sage will get the Ball I have no doubt. Back up QB's are very important and we have the very best. It seems that a lot of Qb's were backups at one point before becoming a starter, and some stayed in that roll and carried the team when needed. That might verywell be Sages position we will all see soon enough.

DocBar
03-12-2008, 12:41 AM
No, I am looking at Kubiak and Smith's track record. But for an injury to Spencer, it is entirely likely 4 of 5 3rd and 4th round picks under their regime would have been starters last year.



Helloooooo--point wasn't we need people at those positions--those were examples of getting starters in those rounds you so casually dismiss.



Yeah, and the problem with overvaluing backup QBs is they are sitting on the sideline with a clipboard.



That is as easy as a phone call away. Take the draft pick and then get on the horn to Leftwich, Culpepper or Tuiosopopo (or however the heck you spell his name). Upgrade your team with the draft pick while at most slightly downgrading your backup QB.

I'm OK with trading Sage, but not for a 3rd rounder. The guy stepped in last season and went 4-1 as a starter and our offense barely skipped a beat. That resulted in our 1st non-losing season as a franchise. That also makes Sage a valuable commodity since Schaub isn't 100% and noone knows when he will be. The teams front office is notorious for inaccurate information regarding player's health and timetables for their return. I would rather see us wait until draft day and if a player we had rated higher, that we really could use, falls to theat 3rd round spot, try and pull the trigger. I paraphrase another poster with " A QB in the hand is worth 2 draft picks on draft day" today.

Trap_Star
03-12-2008, 12:48 AM
Would you give Sage for Chester Taylor strait up?:texflag:

NO. rather keep sage and draft Jonathan Stewart. :fans:

NitroGSXR
03-12-2008, 01:33 AM
Well, last year at the 3 we got Jacoby Jones who everyone was ready to anoint as the next great WR to appear from a small "nowhere" school. Granted he's not a starter (yet) and he may never be if Davis and Walter continue to produce. At the 4 we got Fred Bennett who I believe ended the season as a starter and who will probably begin this coming season as one. Yes, we have had injuries. No, I don't see a lot of people upset that Fred is starting.

In 2006 we got Eric Winston and Charles Spencer back to back in the 3rd round and, but for a freak injury to Spencer we would have hit on a pair of starters in the 3rd. We also found Owen Daniels in the 4th who is a starter, or at the very least a heavy contributor.

In two drafts Kubiak and Kubiak+Smith have been 4 out of 5 in finding starters in the 3rd and 4th rounds of the draft. If Spencer comes back and can play again we will be looking at actually getting to see 4 "net" starters but I can't hold an injury against the guy's draft position.

If the Texans traded Sage for Minnesota's 3 I am pretty confident that we could get a starter there. You might have noticed that these guys we have drafting for us now are doing a pretty good job.
For what it's worth, I'm on your side and I think you've done an excellent job presenting yourself in this entire thread and I'm behind you.

Now... when you inherit a bad team as the Houston Texans were when Kubiak and Smith took over... it's not exactly very hard to draft starters in the later rounds. I really think that's a very important aspect to consider. I love what Smith and Kubiak have done so far and they've given me reasons to be excited about the upcoming season.

Albeit it's going to be a little harder for them to find starters down the road. The law of averages has to come into force somewhere. We can't simply be upgrading at the 3rd, 4th, and 5th round every year. There will be a time when we'll be drafting for depth which is what solid teams do. They don't go into the later part of the draft looking to get starters. They into the draft go looking for depth and if a standout happens then they'll have struck gold.

I believe that we're trying to build our team up the right way. Sage Rosenfels has a sell high value right now and the Texans must take it if a solid offer comes. I define solid as if a starter will come back to us. A 1st or 2nd round draft selections are starting material. Well.. I'm trying to say that the higher up in the draft they're selected... the chances of them starting are greater. And that's when I'd sell Sage Rosenfels. We're still building our team. That's my logic trying to tell me something. Eh.

Moving on up. Moving on up to the East Sideeeee. Or however the theme song goes.

TK_Gamer
03-12-2008, 02:21 AM
Well.. I'm trying to say that the higher up in the draft they're selected... the chances of them starting are greater. And that's when I'd sell Sage Rosenfels. We're still building our team. That's my logic trying to tell me something. Eh.

Moving on up. Moving on up to the East Sideeeee. Or however the theme song goes.

IMHO that logic is what is wrong with trying to make need picks in the draft. I think its a misconception that just because a player goes early, they have a better chance at starting in the NFL. The problem is one word: HYPE , that is the predominant reason this guy goes in the first and this other guy goes in the third. I do think that high draft picks "get" a better chance to start, but I dont think they all earn a better chance. Every year there are literally thousands of prospects spread all over the country in big schools and small ones, the scouts perception of their ability slant the value of each of them, so a lot fall through the cracks. That is what a good draft team capitalizes on, the ones that fall through the cracks of the "hype" system.
Thus far our team has just done a good job of finding talent and ignoring hype. Sorry for rambling.

NitroGSXR
03-12-2008, 02:33 AM
IMHO that logic is what is wrong with trying to make need picks in the draft. I think its a misconception that just because a player goes early, they have a better chance at starting in the NFL. The problem is one word: HYPE , that is the predominant reason this guy goes in the first and this other guy goes in the third. I do think that high draft picks "get" a better chance to start, but I dont think they all earn a better chance. Every year there are literally thousands of prospects spread all over the country in big schools and small ones, the scouts perception of their ability slant the value of each of them, so a lot fall through the cracks. That is what a good draft team capitalizes on, the ones that fall through the cracks of the "hype" system.
Thus far our team has just done a good job of finding talent and ignoring hype. Sorry for rambling.
I don't really agree with you for the most part. Sure, superficial 'hype' plays a part in all of this but I'll take the guy who's got the size, measurables, and anything else that a general NFL team considers to be worthy of taking in the first and second rounds. The higher up you're drafted, the better your chances are of becoming a starter. I don't have anything to back me up on this but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this. If anyone's willing to do the numbers on what the percentages are of where starters remain in each round of the draft. I'll think that a first day pick's gonna more inclined to still have a job in the NFL starting over a second day pick. Sure, some guys slip through the cracks but just how often does that happen? Hence why I call them as of discovering gold. It's a pleasant surprise when you're able to get something solid in a place that's not really known for finding sure things.

I think the hype goes crazy when a player is trying to be deemed as the second coming of whatever. Anything less than that doesn't really sound too feastable. In other words, players vying for the top selections in the draft are the ones who generally get hyped up. I don't think we've all seen too many players get hyped up too much in the lower first round or second round. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just talking out of my rear end here but it's my logic.

Either way, it wasn't really the point that I was trying to make. I was more of trying to stress that it's simply easier to find a starter deeper in the draft when you've got a weak team. I wasn't questioning Kubiak or Smith's talent.

GP
03-12-2008, 09:45 AM
As much as the pro-Schaub people say "people are affected by David Carr," I would say that the pro-Schaub people haven't been affected ENOUGH. We keep crowning QBs, and history keeps repeating itself.

I think the talks with the Vikings are not alive, and they are not dead either. I think the talks are dormant until the draft. The Vikings and Texans, IMO, are waiting to see how the draft shakes down...and if a deal is beneficial to both sides, as players come off the board and each team sees what's left, we'll see Sage shipped off to the Vikings.

If Smith and Kubiak felt comfortable enough to even allow the talks with the Vikings in the first place, then I'd say it's not over with yet. And this is very intriguing because it seems that Kubiak/Smith are prepared to do something at QB which nips Sage out of the picture.

There will be a draft-day trade, and Sage is the main ingredient. He did well last season, and we need extra picks in the worst way.

badboy
03-12-2008, 10:11 AM
No They Don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They Don't Want To Trade Chester For Sage, So Lock Up This Frickin Thread

I Can't Take Opening This Page Everyday And Falling For It Again!! I'm Not At My Best In The Morning!Insanity: Continuing to do the same thing while hoping for a different result.

TK_Gamer
03-12-2008, 10:19 AM
Either way, it wasn't really the point that I was trying to make. I was more of trying to stress that it's simply easier to find a starter deeper in the draft when you've got a weak team. I wasn't questioning Kubiak or Smith's talent.

I know what your getting at, more like it's easier for a lesser player to make the team on a team with less talent, and I agree. But think about this, Is Demeco good because he's on the Texans? NO, because he is not rated by the league as a comparison to the players on "our" team. He is rated by how well he plays "against" players from other teams. He didnt get all those tackles against our team. We are really the only ones that compare our players to our other players, the rest of the league looks at it totally different. In the end the players from the weaker team are actually more talented because they have less of a supporting cast.

As far as the first day -second day thing goes, mathmaticly there are many more players in the NFL that are not first rounders or second rounders than there are ones that are. In the end the biggest difference becomes the cost of their initial contracts...

badboy
03-12-2008, 10:19 AM
It's a dangerous thing falling in love with a backup QB. You think that you see something that everyone else has simply overlooked. In the vast majority of cases you're seeing an illusion. Every once in a while somebody has a Brett Favre sitting on the end of their depth chart waiting to be given a shot but it doesn't happen very often. Mostly you're looking at A.J. Feeley or Scott Mitchell or, god forbid Cody Carlson.

I'm not calling for the Texans to trade Sage. I'm not going to be upset if he stays (or goes for that matter). I'm just saying that I get the feeling he'll probably be moved before the draft. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. I just think it's going to happen.Who are you refering to "falling in love with a back up QB"? Texans fans or Vikings? If Vikings love Sage enough to offer a third they may love him enough to offer a second. As a Texans fan I'd love that.

Hervoyel
03-12-2008, 10:56 AM
I was saying that Porky had fallen in love with Sage and wasn't seeing things clearly. That was merely my opinion of course.

Remember that while it's important to have a quality backup QB it's also an unfortunate fact of the game that only one guy can play QB at a time. If you have Drew Brees and Philip Rivers you're going to eventually let one go. If you have David Anderson and Brady Quinn you're going to eventually let one go. If you have Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh you're going to fleece the Saints out of three draft picks while you can.

Any team that has more than one QB with value (real value or perceived, doesn't matter) as a starter under contract will be trying to make sure that they get something for the one they do not intend to keep. You do that balancing act of keeping both of them for as long as you can and then you pull the trigger and make your team better. There is a shortage of quality starting QB's in the league that will always provide a market for backups who appear ready to make that jump to full time starter. Somebody will always be ready to pay to find their QB.

For the record guys I want a 2 for Sage as well. I think it might be possible to get it but (and here's where many of us differ) I'd take the 3 if that's all I could get. I think a 2 is possible however. If I were the Texans I'd be trying just as hard to hold out for the 2. If Sage is ready to start and isn't another A.J. Feeley then the 2 would be a good deal for the Vikings and not shabby for us (considering his age). a 2 feels right to me. Getting a 3 would be acceptable (to me) but a 2 would be spot on.

badboy
03-12-2008, 11:22 AM
No, I am looking at Kubiak and Smith's track record. But for an injury to Spencer, it is entirely likely 4 of 5 3rd and 4th round picks under their regime would have been starters last year.



Helloooooo--point wasn't we need people at those positions--those were examples of getting starters in those rounds you so casually dismiss.



Yeah, and the problem with overvaluing backup QBs is they are sitting on the sideline with a clipboard.



That is as easy as a phone call away. Take the draft pick and then get on the horn to Leftwich, Culpepper or Tuiosopopo (or however the heck you spell his name). Upgrade your team with the draft pick while at most slightly downgrading your backup QB.Just a thought. We sign Stewart in first at 18. Charles Godfrey CB in 3rd and Tony Hills LT in 4th. On draft day we trade Sage for Viking's 2nd round. IMO CB, LT & RB are biggest needs and in this scenario filled. Would the player we use Vikings pick on as a 4th "need" be more valuable to team than Sage? I realize that the 2nd could be used to upgrade one of of the positions I draft in 3rd or 4th, but hopefully you understand my question. We would pick up a veteran QB for back up. I think if I had all those picks I could go 1)Stewart 2) Anthony Collins,Cherilus or Baker for LT 3) Godfrey 4) Booty or Brennan for your future QB or Schaub b/up.
Thoughts, anyone?

Texans_Chick
03-12-2008, 11:42 AM
One thing I tried to go into earlier in this thread was that if Schaub just explodes while walking out onto the field next year and literally there isn't a scrap of him big enough to merit burying then this team is not going to go into 2009 with Sage Rosenfels as the starter. They're going to go find someone they want as their starter be it through free agency, a trade, or more than likely the draft.

Kubiak had a chance to go with Sage as the man. He passed and he did so at a pretty high cost. Nobody will convince me that Kubiak doesn't know exactly what he has in Sage Rosenfels and that he's going to just say "Well, it's pretty bad about Matt exploding and all <thumps podium and looks at feet> but we got Sage and he's the starter now." when camp starts in 2009. It's not going to happen.

The point is that everyone says "we NEED Sage.... just in case" but in the worst version of the worst case scenario here Sage is going to be a placeholder until they can bring in their next "franchise QB". He's not going to be the replacement for Schaub. What's more is that this next hypothetical franchise QB isn't going to have a lengthy multi-year spin up time before he's ready. He won't be David Carr getting 5 years to learn the position. In the rest of the NFL, in the real world nobody does that and now neither do we. We're not going to "need" Sage until the rookie (most likely) is "ready". They're going to do a Jay Cutler on him and he'll be playing by the end of his first season. Sage will be back on the bench holding the clipboard and waiting for free agency to strike again. Then he'll sign with somebody else so he can start which he has said he wants to do and we'll get nothing for him. That's nothing as in zip, nada, zero.

And we'll be looking through that pile of scraps for our newest insurance policy that Kubiak can coach up.

The people who believe that Sage will somehow beat out Schaub for the job or take us to the playoffs if Schaub goes down have already shown me that they can't see the difference between Sage's starts and Matt's starts.

I firmly believe that David Carr's time here in Houston has done something to Texans fans ability to accurately and impartialy judge what they see.


I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying but also what people are saying who are very resistant in trading Rosenfels.

There's pros and cons to both Schaub and Rosenfels, like there are with any player. I think the biggest reason why people are resistant to trading Rosenfels is not because they think we are trading away the next Favre, but rather we still don't know exactly what we have in Schaub.

I also think that Rosenfels' wage to ability ratio is great at a key position for the team, that it allows the Texans to put only two quarterbacks on the roster, and that you aren't taking a position of strength for the team and making it into a big worry and questionmark. You don't have to be preparing up a #2 to potentially start or scramble to even find that guy in a league that has become a developmental wasteland for QBs (teams suiting up only 2 QBs, no Europa league, etc).

If Schaub were a more proven guy, I don't think we have this debate. I see him still as an incomplete. Not that I think that Rosenfels is better, but I'd like to see Schaub get through an NFL season.

infantrycak
03-12-2008, 11:54 AM
Thoughts, anyone?

I think the trade would be pointless to a bad idea if you use a pick on a QB.

beerlover
03-12-2008, 12:03 PM
Schaub & Sage = franchise QB

why do so many Texans fans want to mess a good thing up :gun:

badboy
03-12-2008, 12:03 PM
I think the trade would be pointless to a bad idea if you use a pick on a QB.Even if you get a starter at need position with the 2nd round pick and can get a good prospect later in draft for QB? I don't think I can agree with that.

badboy
03-12-2008, 12:04 PM
Schaub & Sage = franchise QB

why do so many Texans fans want to mess a good thing up :gun:
Your math is worse than mine.

Texans_Chick
03-12-2008, 12:09 PM
BTW, something to put into your analysis:

HT.com Schaub's Shoulder Getting Stronger (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=4221)

Glad to hear. Even so. Texans. Injuries. I never like to plan for the best given our unlucky history.

I have to say this is another factor that gives me a bit of the willies if you were wanting trading a known-quantity backup.

infantrycak
03-12-2008, 12:23 PM
Even if you get a starter at need position with the 2nd round pick and can get a good prospect later in draft for QB? I don't think I can agree with that.

A 4th round QB is very unlikely to be as good as a vet like Leftwich, Culpepper, Gray or even Tuiasosopo whereas in the 4th you are looking at the potential for DD, Bennett, Daniels etc. Beyond the 4th I don't really care about giving up the pick, but the odds on the QB being ready to be the 2nd QB on a 2 QB team are even lower.

Porky
03-12-2008, 12:29 PM
I was saying that Porky had fallen in love with Sage and wasn't seeing things clearly.


It's true I confess.

http://images.cafepress.com/image/12043665_125x125.jpg

eriadoc
03-12-2008, 12:41 PM
There's a possibility that Sage could be the next Rich Gannon, and Kubiak is as likely to get that out of him as anyone. You can't plan on that, of course, but the level of competence that Sage displayed last season means that you don't have any dropoff from Schaub to Sage - yet. We all hope Schaub picks up his play to the point that there is a dropoff. I think if a 2nd round pick were offered, you'd have to do the deal, but for a 3rd, I'd stand pat.

Thorn
03-12-2008, 01:45 PM
On the market Schaub, as a backup (highly touted by NFL pundits, scouts, and other teams) was worth two 2nd round draft choices last year.

Sage, for his work last season, has not recieved as much national love as Schaub was getting when we traded for him.

So, I do NOT expect to get two 2nd round picks for Sage, if, indeed we pull the triger and do this. However, I do expect to get a 2nd round pick and something else. What that something else can be is another player (probably not a great one) or a lower round pick the 2nd day.

EDIT to add: And if Schaub proves to be injury prone, we will be up the creek without Sage and I'll be back here telling yall I told ya so. LOL

CloakNNNdagger
03-12-2008, 03:09 PM
I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying but also what people are saying who are very resistant in trading Rosenfels.

There's pros and cons to both Schaub and Rosenfels, like there are with any player. I think the biggest reason why people are resistant to trading Rosenfels is not because they think we are trading away the next Favre, but rather we still don't know exactly what we have in Schaub.

I also think that Rosenfels' wage to ability ratio is great at a key position for the team, that it allows the Texans to put only two quarterbacks on the roster, and that you aren't taking a position of strength for the team and making it into a big worry and questionmark. You don't have to be preparing up a #2 to potentially start or scramble to even find that guy in a league that has become a developmental wasteland for QBs (teams suiting up only 2 QBs, no Europa league, etc).

If Schaub were a more proven guy, I don't think we have this debate. I see him still as an incomplete. Not that I think that Rosenfels is better, but I'd like to see Schaub get through an NFL season.

Excellent point. I am one of those that feel strongly that especially this year it would be very imprudent to let go of Sage under virtually any circumstances. As some one else pointed out, the need for another QB to come in for the original starter on an NFL team during a season has become the rule rather than the exception. Oh yeh, you can point to Manning, Brady, Favre, etc. But these have become the exception......................The NFL is becoming a league of tandems. Any one remember when a single "workhorse" RB was all teams ever really need to rely on? Look around now.........

PHAROAH
03-12-2008, 03:22 PM
You guys are over playing how good sage Rosenfels is he is a career backup who fit the scheme pretty well and that's it get rid of him while his value is high. There are other QB's that can do well in this system as a backup.

beerlover
03-12-2008, 03:26 PM
Your math is worse than mine.

simplified math :)

infantrycak
03-12-2008, 04:01 PM
Excellent point. I am one of those that feel strongly that especially this year it would be very imprudent to let go of Sage under virtually any circumstances. As some one else pointed out, the need for another QB to come in for the original starter on an NFL team during a season has become the rule rather than the exception. Oh yeh, you can point to Manning, Brady, Favre, etc. But these have become the exception......................The NFL is becoming a league of tandems.

Not for playoff teams it hasn't.

eriadoc
03-12-2008, 04:36 PM
You guys are over playing how good sage Rosenfels is he is a career backup who fit the scheme pretty well and that's it get rid of him while his value is high. There are other QB's that can do well in this system as a backup.

I really don't think so. What Sage has done is concrete in results. They're not hard to see. You can argue that last year's production was his limit, and that's fine. You can likewise argue that Schaub has a higher upside and should be better than Sage going forward. That's fine. But last year, after all was said and done, Sage pretty much equaled Schaub in terms of statistical production and in terms of giving the team a chance to win each time out on the field. Going forward .... who knows? But right now, Schaub has not proven he's any better than Sage. Nor vice versa.

Texans_Chick
03-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Not for playoff teams it hasn't.

But you don't know who are the guys that can last an entire season. You can't annoint Schaub to be the whole season guy because he hasn't shown that.

And if he isn't the guy, and he gets dinged again, you need a quarterback that won't get the rest of your players killed or the coach fired. Or at a minimum, not self-destruct until your guy is better again.

The Patriots have had amazing luck and they've made their own luck with Tom Brady. And the luck ran out right before the Super Bowl and they still almost pulled it off.

The Texans have to make plans assuming that they have absolutely no luck at all.

Insideop
03-12-2008, 05:58 PM
The Texans have to make plans assuming that they have absolutely no luck at all.

Oh, we've had plenty of luck alright. BAD LUCK! Especially in the injury department. :shades:

DocBar
03-12-2008, 06:35 PM
Not for playoff teams it hasn't. Not wanting to start an arguement or anything, but we just made it to .500 last season. We're getting close to being a plaoff team, but not there just yet. TC and Porky have stated my case better than I have, so I guess we can just agree to disagree.

thunderkyss
03-12-2008, 07:29 PM
Wow,

There is some really good discussion going on in this thread..

My 2 cents.

If other teams are offering a third for Sage, I don't have a problem with our management playing hardball, and holding out. I think they have every reason to believe they should be able to get more than a third.

I wouldn't be too interested, if a Chester Taylor + a third was on the table. Between Ahman Green, Ron Dayne, Darius Walker & Chris Taylor, OTAs & training camp is already going to be pretty crowded @ the running back position. Not to mention whatever Wali Lundy or UDFA we'll pick up in this years draft.

As far as the "we need Sage badly" stuff, remember Jake Plummer before & after Kubiak, remember David Carr before & after Kubiak. Remember Sage Rosdenfells(& I'm a big fan) before Kubiak.

David's problem with Kubiak, wasn't his mechanics, his skill, or his arm, it was mental. He just didn't give us a chance to win. He was so overwhelmed by the game, that it just didn't make sense to pay him what we were paying him. IF Kubiak got David as a project, with no hurry to get him on the field, I'm sure Kubiak could have made a quality QB out of the guy.

Basically, what I'm saying, if we trade Sage, fine. I'm sure we'll get a quality deal.

If we don't... fine. We can push QB worries off for another year.

El Tejano
03-14-2008, 02:18 PM
I just want attention and thought I'd bring this thread up to get people excited.

Okay I'll stop.

threetoedpete
03-14-2008, 02:35 PM
On the market Schaub, as a backup (highly touted by NFL pundits, scouts, and other teams) was worth two 2nd round draft choices last year.

Sage, for his work last season, has not recieved as much national love as Schaub was getting when we traded for him.

So, I do NOT expect to get two 2nd round picks for Sage, if, indeed we pull the triger and do this. However, I do expect to get a 2nd round pick and something else. What that something else can be is another player (probably not a great one) or a lower round pick the 2nd day.

EDIT to add: And if Schaub proves to be injury prone, we will be up the creek without Sage and I'll be back here telling yall I told ya so. LOL

@greed: they put up both of their threes you do the de@l @nd don't look b@ck.

dickieb
03-14-2008, 09:22 PM
I think Shane Boyd could turn out to be a pretty good QB. He has a lot of talent and natural ability, I am looking forward to seeing him more in camp and preseason. If we got a 2nd rounder for Sage I wouldn't be upset because I think Boyd could turn out to be a good find.

Overalls
03-15-2008, 04:00 PM
I don't know if this has anything to do with anything but I thought it was interesting in light of this thread so I pulled it off of KFFL.com


Texans | Nall has had discussions with team
Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:16:57 -0700

Judd Zulgad, of the Star Tribune, reports free-agent QB Craig Nall (Packers) has had discussions with the Houston Texans, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.


Take it for what it's worth.


:fans:

Errant Hothy
03-15-2008, 04:13 PM
I think Shane Boyd could turn out to be a pretty good QB. He has a lot of talent and natural ability, I am looking forward to seeing him more in camp and preseason. If we got a 2nd rounder for Sage I wouldn't be upset because I think Boyd could turn out to be a good find.

I agree but I think that Boyd needs atleast another year on the pratice squad before we can even think about him serving as the back-up QB.

If we trade Sage we'll have to sign a veteran to be the back-up.

TexanBorn51
03-15-2008, 04:46 PM
I think Shane Boyd could turn out to be a pretty good QB. He has a lot of talent and natural ability, I am looking forward to seeing him more in camp and preseason. If we got a 2nd rounder for Sage I wouldn't be upset because I think Boyd could turn out to be a good find.
I'm not saying this as a true backup QB to Schaub but let's say if in fact Sage was to be traded for a draft pick then we would need one and fill a good need position. So I noticed that the other Texan QB is once rookie Shane Boyd. I live in Phoenix Cardinal country in which he played the 2nd half against the Texans in 07 preseason and saw a fairly good performance. It also appeared the Cardinal fans here were very impressed. At least another year now in the system and also now a Texan. If anything can still try to pick up another backup vet QB. Now with draft picks they could possibly pick up in order the BPA of which are the, CB, OL, RB, and DE which in turn would help the possible unstabilitiy injury to Schaub by improving protection and less pressure on him. Just an open thinking idea of opinion if in fact they were to trade Sage.
Shane appears liking to run well... and he ran good in that preseason game I saw.
College career
He played in 36 games while starting 16 with the University of Kentucky. He finished his college career with 2,484 passing yards with 13 TDís and gained 845 rushing yards on 191 carries and 13 TDís.

Cologne Centurions quarterback Shane Boyd became NFL Europeís all-time leading rushing quarterback, amassing 339 yards on the ground to break Jon Kitnaís record by five yards.

CloakNNNdagger
03-15-2008, 11:25 PM
I'm not saying this as a true backup QB to Schaub but let's say if in fact Sage was to be traded for a draft pick then we would need one and fill a good need position. So I noticed that the other Texan QB is once rookie Shane Boyd. I live in Phoenix Cardinal country in which he played the 2nd half against the Texans in 07 preseason and saw a fairly good performance. It also appeared the Cardinal fans here were very impressed. At least another year now in the system and also now a Texan. If anything can still try to pick up another backup vet QB. Now with draft picks they could possibly pick up in order the BPA of which are the, CB, OL, RB, and DE which in turn would help the possible unstabilitiy injury to Schaub by improving protection and less pressure on him. Just an open thinking idea of opinion if in fact they were to trade Sage.
Shane appears liking to run well... and he ran good in that preseason game I saw.
College career
He played in 36 games while starting 16 with the University of Kentucky. He finished his college career with 2,484 passing yards with 13 TD’s and gained 845 rushing yards on 191 carries and 13 TD’s.

Cologne Centurions quarterback Shane Boyd became NFL Europe’s all-time leading rushing quarterback, amassing 339 yards on the ground to break Jon Kitna’s record by five yards.

The numbers are a little misleading in that up until his senior year, he played mostly RB, WR and punt coverage. In his senior year, he took over the QB spot and produced 1300+ yds (~50% completion), 7 TDs with 9 INTs, while producing 5 TDs rushing 281 yds on 104 carries for 2.9 ypc.

He was pegged to actually be converted to RB if he entered the NFL. (FYI, he turned down a MLB draft contract by the Twins as a pitcher and eventually was picked up as an undrafted FA by the Tacks)

TexansSeminole
03-16-2008, 01:04 AM
If this happened, which I seriously doubt it will, we would have to draft a QB or pick up a guy like Chris Simms, or something. We'd be in a worse off situation. I don't want to bring in anymore veterans at RB, I'd like to add a rookie but we are good with veteran RBS (Green, Dayne, and now Chris Brown)

Joe Texan
03-16-2008, 01:09 AM
We will not trade Sage, Trust me

And we will be drafting A tackle

drewmar74
03-16-2008, 01:18 AM
...or pick up a guy like Chris Simms, or something. We'd be in a worse off situation.

I've been saying for a while now that we need to pick up Simms because, if we do that, then Winston becomes our premium pass blocker and we can pick up a RT-quality LT in the draft in a later round. Or move Pitts back out there....

Anyhooooooooo

Maybe its time for bed.

Maddict5
03-16-2008, 05:01 PM
something that could quite possibly have a huge bearing on if the trade is realised:

Craig Nall-QB- Packers Mar. 16 - 11:52 am et
The Texans, Vikings, and Packers have reportedly had discussions with free agent QB Craig Nall.

If all the Vikings do is add Nall behind Tarvaris Jackson, we wouldn't bet on them making the playoffs. Nall knows Gary Kubiak's system, but the Texans already have one of the league's top backups in Sage Rosenfels. If Houston acquired Nall, it's possible that Rosenfels would go on the trade block.
Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Related: Texans, Vikings

edo783
03-16-2008, 05:53 PM
something that could quite possibly have a huge bearing on if the trade is realised:

Kind of smells like something is cooking IMO. It will be interesting to see if it ever becomes soup.

bckey
03-16-2008, 06:11 PM
Kind of smells like something is cooking IMO. It will be interesting to see if it ever becomes soup.


Thats what I'm thinking also edo. I believe they have someone targeted in the draft that they feel will help the Texans enough to make this trade worth it. Stay tuned.

Thorn
03-16-2008, 06:11 PM
After many beers today, and after not being able to remever any of my past posts, I must exclain Sage for President.

I'm voting for Sage. Sage verses McCain and the bro or the ho is not a contest. Sage is the man.

Sage for president. Who's whith me?

Maddict5
03-16-2008, 06:19 PM
wanna see inside thorns house right now????????



















http://fracas.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/drunk75.gif

Thorn
03-16-2008, 06:23 PM
OK, so I'll admit I' drunk, that's not the point. Really.

Sage for president. He's better that the others so far.

brakos82
03-16-2008, 06:29 PM
OK, so I'll admit I' drunk, that's not the point. Really.

Sage for president. He's better that the others so far.
I'd rather vote for Carr than those farts on 12 TV stations.

Thorn
03-16-2008, 07:17 PM
After taking into consideration I am drunk, and I can barely type (Microsoft Word is saving me) I must say I am voting for Sage. He may be nothing but a back up that brings us to the edge, but I say Sage is The Man.

CloakNNNdagger
03-16-2008, 07:28 PM
Need I remind anyone who Nall (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5259857.html) is??????

gtexan02
03-16-2008, 07:46 PM
As long as BVP doesnt come anywhere near the team this year, Im OK

Honoring Earl 34
03-16-2008, 09:06 PM
After taking into consideration I am drunk, and I can barely type (Microsoft Word is saving me) I must say I am voting for Sage. He may be nothing but a back up that brings us to the edge, but I say Sage is The Man.

I found your video of when you were a baby .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6865aUbHZg

gtexan02
03-16-2008, 09:32 PM
I found your video of when you were a baby .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6865aUbHZg

Vikings rumored interest in Sage Rosenfels to.... this video. The offseason is long indeed :(

adam
03-16-2008, 10:01 PM
Absolutely not. For the life of me, I can't fathom a good reason to trade away who is arguably our best quarterback. Until Schaub proves that he is, at the very least, able to stay healthy (let alone a consistent football player), Sage will be needed.

Thorn
03-17-2008, 02:20 AM
I found your video of when you were a baby .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6865aUbHZg

LOL.

It's a tough job being a dirty (drunk?) old man, but it's something I do well.

Glad I have Monday off.