PDA

View Full Version : Draft two running backs?


badboy
02-18-2008, 04:24 PM
If you knew that CB, FS, LT spots were taken care of would it make sense to draft a back like Jamaal Charles and one like Matt Forte from Tulane?

Scenario, Texans trade #18 for Atlanta two 2nd round selections. This is a possible scenario.

2a Jamaal Charles 6'1" 200 lbs 4.39 should rack up the all purpose yards in ZBS under Gibbs.

2b Anthony Collins LT

3rd Matt Forte 6'1" 221 4.56 over 2100 yards last season

4th Trae Williams CB 5' 10" 193 4.40 and has run a 4.34
5th Darnell Terrell CB/FS 6'2" 200 4.43 can play both positions

I think Brandon Harrison will be a solid option this year. Weaver will be there and no DE will be drafted. No OLb will be drafted. We could not resign Dayne and cut Green. Zack Diles will get long look at OLB. Thoughts?

bigbrewster2000
02-19-2008, 09:00 AM
If you knew that CB, FS, LT spots were taken care of would it make sense to draft a back like Jamaal Charles and one like Matt Forte from Tulane?

Scenario, Texans trade #18 for Atlanta two 2nd round selections. This is a possible scenario.

2a Jamaal Charles 6'1" 200 lbs 4.39 should rack up the all purpose yards in ZBS under Gibbs.

2b Anthony Collins LT

3rd Matt Forte 6'1" 221 4.56 over 2100 yards last season

4th Trae Williams CB 5' 10" 193 4.40 and has run a 4.34
5th Darnell Terrell CB/FS 6'2" 200 4.43 can play both positions

I think Brandon Harrison will be a solid option this year. Weaver will be there and no DE will be drafted. No OLb will be drafted. We could not resign Dayne and cut Green. Zack Diles will get long look at OLB. Thoughts?

I would say no. First, we still need players at other positions, so drafting 2 RB's in consecutive rounds makes no sense, and to further the point, if The CB position is taken care of why would you draft 2 of them on consecutive rounds? Last with all of the players that ATL is getting rid of they are probably wating to keep the picks they have.

Still need a space eater DT, pass rushing DE specialist, an OLB(at least for depth) and oline depth.

The1ApplePie
02-19-2008, 09:12 AM
Charles is a less talented Reggie Bush, since this board is full of Reggie haters, I don't know why people want him.

If they want to go that route, I'd take Slaton. Shades of Portis.

A hammer at FB like Schmitt or Hillis would be nice.

badboy
02-19-2008, 09:21 AM
I would say no. First, we still need players at other positions, so drafting 2 RB's in consecutive rounds makes no sense, and to further the point, if The CB position is taken care of why would you draft 2 of them on consecutive rounds? Last with all of the players that ATL is getting rid of they are probably wating to keep the picks they have.

Still need a space eater DT, pass rushing DE specialist, an OLB(at least for depth) and oline depth.Read the thread again. The question is if the main areas of need were to be taken care of (as I do later in draft) would it make any sense to get a speed back and a power back? My first thought when this hit me over the weekend was like yours. However, if reasonable selections could bring solid players at those need positions, would two RBs be an idea? Also note that Terrell plays both FS and CB. I also stated imo neither a DE nor OLB will be taken in draft. Just tossing around some ideas. I also think a DT will not be taken before round 6.

badboy
02-19-2008, 09:34 AM
Charles is a less talented Reggie Bush, since this board is full of Reggie haters, I don't know why people want him.

If they want to go that route, I'd take Slaton. Shades of Portis.

A hammer at FB like Schmitt or Hillis would be nice.Well I am not a Reggie Bush hater although I was hoping for a trade down to land a LT originally. I think if we could get a CB in FA or in draft (Bennett worked out well in 4th as I alluded to), draft a LT and pick up a FS (Terrell) and Harrison may do ok based on Smith's other choices last year (and Demps has not gone elsewhere yet) why not sign two RB to offer "Thunder and Lightning"?

As to a FB, I don't see a history of a FB hauling the ball, so why draft one?

I am not a Slaton fan but I could see Chris Johnson.

digitalswim
02-19-2008, 09:52 AM
Any draft day scenario that has Atlanta trading away picks is simply not going to happen. Atlanta is in desperate need of every pick they can get their hands on. If anything they want to be trading down themselves to try and pick up even more picks.

tulexan
02-19-2008, 09:53 AM
I don't think Forte is going to be available when we pick in the third round. I've heard that he has been really running well in Fort Lauderdale where he is training.

Ole Miss Texan
02-19-2008, 10:07 AM
I think Forte is going to find a place on some NFL team and perform well, I'm just not sure it's going to be with the Texans.

For those that have watched him more than I: From reading up on him, one of the Cons is that he doesn't change direction all that well and doesn't have the initial burst/quickness. At least that is what I got from combining all I could find. Is this true or is it just a nit-pick kind of "he could get better at this"?

Would his running style fit into the ZBS, the one cut and then accelerate through?

bigbrewster2000
02-19-2008, 10:42 AM
Read the thread again. The question is if the main areas of need were to be taken care of (as I do later in draft) would it make any sense to get a speed back and a power back? My first thought when this hit me over the weekend was like yours. However, if reasonable selections could bring solid players at those need positions, would two RBs be an idea? Also note that Terrell plays both FS and CB. I also stated imo neither a DE nor OLB will be taken in draft. Just tossing around some ideas. I also think a DT will not be taken before round 6.
You didnt actually specify that they would be taken care of later in the draft, just that they would be taken care of. If someone says that I am thinking you mean FA not draft. Anyway, I still say no. I would rather keep Dayne as the power guy and still use the draft for Depth. Just because Diles is allegedly moving to OLB doesnt mean they wont draft for depth especially if they dont resign Clark and Anderson. Weaver can still stay and they draft a DE pass rush specialist since Weaver is not a pass rusher. I dont think Weaver is going anywhere either but we need a guy to come in on obvious passing downs to bring pressure on the opposing QB. I dont think a DT will be taken til later either.

tulexan
02-19-2008, 10:53 AM
I think Forte is going to find a place on some NFL team and perform well, I'm just not sure it's going to be with the Texans.

For those that have watched him more than I: From reading up on him, one of the Cons is that he doesn't change direction all that well and doesn't have the initial burst/quickness. At least that is what I got from combining all I could find. Is this true or is it just a nit-pick kind of "he could get better at this"?

Would his running style fit into the ZBS, the one cut and then accelerate through?

That's not true about him. He actually has the initial burst/quickness but lacks the top end speed. Think of him like a big Dom Davis. I think he could do well in the ZBS system and will be one of the hardest working players on the team.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/matt-forte?id=234

badboy
02-19-2008, 10:54 AM
I think Forte is going to find a place on some NFL team and perform well, I'm just not sure it's going to be with the Texans.

For those that have watched him more than I: From reading up on him, one of the Cons is that he doesn't change direction all that well and doesn't have the initial burst/quickness. At least that is what I got from combining all I could find. Is this true or is it just a nit-pick kind of "he could get better at this"?

Would his running style fit into the ZBS, the one cut and then accelerate through?Not sure if his style fits ZBS but he is supposed to run well between tackles. If he rushed for over 2,000 yards and can't change directions all that well, maybe he should just change his mind about playing football? You might also read the attached critiques.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=33758

Feb 11 and 12 were very insightful for me.

badboy
02-19-2008, 11:01 AM
You didnt actually specify that they would be taken care of later in the draft, just that they would be taken care of. If someone says that I am thinking you mean FA not draft. Anyway, I still say no. I would rather keep Dayne as the power guy and still use the draft for Depth. Just because Diles is allegedly moving to OLB doesnt mean they wont draft for depth especially if they dont resign Clark and Anderson. Weaver can still stay and they draft a DE pass rush specialist since Weaver is not a pass rusher. I dont think Weaver is going anywhere either but we need a guy to come in on obvious passing downs to bring pressure on the opposing QB. I dont think a DT will be taken til later either.Interesting points. If they get a guy to rush the QB, whose place does he take? I think most believe FS, CB, LT and RB are the primary areas of need, although do not necessarily agree on the order. If a starter is not selected in free agency for any of these slots and that is highly possible if not probable, then they will be addressed in draft. Saying that, it is also reasonable that no trade down scenario occurs. I read that to say OLB will not be addressed before the others and that means 6th round at earliest. You would prefer Dayne over Forte?

tulexan
02-19-2008, 11:03 AM
This is from the link that I just posted that is from NFL.com. It makes it sound like he can do well in a ZBS system.

Positives: Has a well-built frame with thick thighs and calves, V-shaped upper torso with muscular arms, tight abdomen and broad shoulders...Shows good initial quickness and adequate elusiveness for a rare sized halfback...Has the ability to take a hit and keep his feet to break arm tackles...His catching ability is above average, as he is sudden out of his breaks and shows good hand extension to catch outside his frame...Has an adequate burst of speed, but is precise in his cuts and hits the holes aggressively, squaring his shoulders to execute through trash...Shows good vision and field awareness, as he is developing into an efficient cut blocker...Does a good job being patient and waiting for blocks to develop and has the vision to easily locate the cutback lanes...Is very decisive through the holes, picking his feet well while displaying the body lean to fall forward and gain additional yardage after the initial hit...Is very alert to stunts and blitzes, doing a nice job of facing up to the defender in pass protection...His effort and drive is good taking the ball up the middle and also demonstrates the second gear to elude along the perimeter...Runs hard and ends most of his carries going forward...Is an adequate in-line blocker, but shows good effort to sustain and control, keeping his hands active and with proper placement...Hard worker on and off the field and is the type who plays until the whistle...Not a real vocal guy, but is very good leader by example...Can be relied upon to get his workouts done without being watched and usually does extra work in the training and film rooms...Shows good ability to hit the hole hard and getting up to full speed in a hurry once he clears the line...Runs with good balance and does a fine job of setting up his blocks...Does a good job of seeing the field and locating coverages to settle underneath in passing situations...Has good strength and power and has become more of a bruiser when running the ball during his senior year...Consistently finishes his runs going forward and shows the ability to consistently break tackles, even when he has to power through the pile...Has vision and quickness to make first person miss and builds his acceleration nicely, reaching full speed when turning the corner...His body control and balance are evident by his ability to make hard cuts and get defenders off balance...Had some fumble issues in 2007, but generally does a good job of protecting the ball in traffic...Used mostly on controlled routes and screens, but has the moves and route running ability to go up the seam for the long throws...Doesn't shy away from contact and is very good at squaring up to mirror defenders or make cut...Has steadily improved his ability to create separation between him and the defender as a senior, keeping his pads low and showing very fluid cutback agility, showing no ill effects from 2006 knee surgery...Comes out of his stance with good hip snap, doing a nice job of locating the cutback lanes...Is a load to bring down in isolated coverage (had to be brought down by multiple defenders on 99-of-314 non-touchdown runs in 2007 and on 53-of-155 carries in 2006)...Has also become an efficient in-line blocker, keeping his hands within his framework to latch on and sustain...Drives hard with his legs in limited attempts as a lead blocker, squaring his shoulders well to widen the rush lanes.

Negatives: Does a good job hitting the hole and reading his blocks, but isn't the type of player who can suddenly explode past the smaller defenders (better moving the pile than trying to elude. Does have the hip swerve to quickly redirect to the cutback lanes)...Lacks the sudden burst to hit the corner, but builds his acceleration nicely, using his power rather than a second gear to break long runs...Has very good hands as a receiver, but the system does not call for him to be split out, nor is he expected to run wide-out routes, but you can see on film that he has the vision and hand extension to catch outside his frame.

Compares To: EDGERRIN JAMES-Arizona...Like James, Forte' might lack explosive speed, but his lower body strength, balance and body control allow him to shift his weight, sink his pads and drive through arm tackles. He is an efficient receiver out of the backfield and adds to his resume as a gunner on special teams. Like James, he quietly goes about his job and is slowly developing into a solid cut blocker. He seems to get stronger as the game wears on and has made steady progress recovering from late 2006 knee problems.

badboy
02-19-2008, 11:19 AM
This is from the link that I just posted that is from NFL.com. It makes it sound like he can do well in a ZBS system.Thanks for the info. Personally I am hoping that we get Jonathan Stewart at #18, however, others have made a case that Atlanta might give up the twos to have their own first and our #18. If that is so, I think I'd be happy with the two second rounds. We will not resolve all the issues this off season. I am not as hopeful that Texans will sign a CB starter in FA. I do think that Collins or Sam Baker will be available at our old 2nd (8th) that we traded to Atlanta for Schaub. That offers a solid LT. Charles may be gone by the first Atlanta 2nd round which I think is the 4th pick. If so, Chris Johnson could serve the purpose. That gives us starters at RB & LT. A power back like Forte that has quick feet and ran for over 2100 yds often against 8-9 defensive guys could possibly give us one of the best 1-2 punches in NFL. And Johnson might do best sharing the ball with Forte. Either Charles or Johnson could be moved around like a Bush and add further to what I see as a very exciting offensive scheme.

Trae Williams at corner has all the excitement to me that Fred Bennett offered. Again as a 4th round. Talk about bang for the buck. I do not see Smith wanting to go with Bennett and a rookie but he may not get a starter in FA. And actually Bennett may have done even better if he had started from game one or two.

I am not adamant about this, just something that popped into my head and made some sense. Yes, we would need other positions strengthened but my proposal would address the major needs in a significant way.

BigBull17
02-19-2008, 11:25 AM
Id love to see a guy like Rice in the 3rd or 4th and pick up Jacob Hester from LSU in the 6th or maybe 7th. He is a tweener FB/HB and that could be a big addition.

Ole Miss Texan
02-19-2008, 11:37 AM
This is from the link that I just posted that is from NFL.com. It makes it sound like he can do well in a ZBS system.

Excellent, thanks for the info. He does sound like he'd be a good fit for the team and that settled my questions concerning him waiting for the hole to open and bursting through.

bah007
02-19-2008, 12:13 PM
Charles is a less talented Reggie Bush, since this board is full of Reggie haters, I don't know why people want him.

If they want to go that route, I'd take Slaton. Shades of Portis.

A hammer at FB like Schmitt or Hillis would be nice.

Charles ran up the middle this season more than Bush or Slaton did in their careers.

He's a thin guy, but he certainly runs with more power than Bush & Slaton.

beerlover
02-19-2008, 12:22 PM
drafting two RB's in one draft, how about just one? that fits & is part of a long term rotation. we have too many needs, now if you said draft two CB's then I would agree a combination of McKelvin in the 1st & Chevis Jackson in the 4th I'd be good with that, sandwich in your RB of choice in the 3rd. Forte. ok if there is a steal in the 6th or 7th rd. some bruiser that lives between tackles & loves to blow up linebacker you could twist my arm, I really like Arkansas 3rd string RB/FB Peyton Hillis. I saw him take the hand-off in the Senior Bowl three steps behind the line, cut-back one lane & hit the hole with explosion & authority, before you knew it he ran downhill 25 yards, best example of a ZBS RB I've seen from this group period.

bah007
02-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Fact is, we just dont have the luxury of using two draft picks on RBs. Too many needs.

tulexan
02-19-2008, 12:32 PM
I don't think we will draft two running backs. I do think we might pick up a free agent running back and draft another one though.

badboy
02-19-2008, 12:50 PM
drafting two RB's in one draft, how about just one? that fits & is part of a long term rotation. we have too many needs, now if you said draft two CB's then I would agree a combination of McKelvin in the 1st & Chevis Jackson in the 4th I'd be good with that, sandwich in your RB of choice in the 3rd. Forte. ok if there is a steal in the 6th or 7th rd. some bruiser that lives between tackles & loves to blow up linebacker you could twist my arm, I really like Arkansas 3rd string RB/FB Peyton Hillis. I saw him take the hand-off in the Senior Bowl three steps behind the line, cut-back one lane & hit the hole with explosion & authority, before you knew it he ran downhill 25 yards, best example of a ZBS RB I've seen from this group period.Chevis runs 4.58 40 compared to Bennett at 4.46 and Trae Williams at 4.40. I think a lot of this depends on our individual opinions on whether to go with a Forte type player in 2nd or a player like Tashard Choice in 4th.

bigbrewster2000
02-19-2008, 01:52 PM
Interesting points. If they get a guy to rush the QB, whose place does he take? I think most believe FS, CB, LT and RB are the primary areas of need, although do not necessarily agree on the order. If a starter is not selected in free agency for any of these slots and that is highly possible if not probable, then they will be addressed in draft. Saying that, it is also reasonable that no trade down scenario occurs. I read that to say OLB will not be addressed before the others and that means 6th round at earliest. You would prefer Dayne over Forte?

Well a situational pass rusher would come in for Weaver on 2nd and long or 3rd and anything longer than 3. I feel like CB, LT and RB will be selected in the 1st, 3rd, and 4th rounds. Dont really know the order or care as long as they are selecting the best guys available. I also dont think there will be a trade down since it is much harder to find a trade partner than everyone assumes. OLB may not be addressed til the 6th or 7th but Ithink it will happen. And just staight up Dayne or Forte, Forte. But thats not how it would actually work. Its Dayne and a whatever player we select at a position of need in the 4th or Forte(who will probably go in the 4th or could). That pick is more important to me on a different area of the field rather than trying to fill a hole that can be filled with a FA(Dayne).

beerlover
02-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Chevis runs 4.58 40 compared to Bennett at 4.46 and Trae Williams at 4.40. I think a lot of this depends on our individual opinions on whether to go with a Forte type player in 2nd or a player like Tashard Choice in 4th.

pure straight away speed (forty) is not the end all be all when it comes to football you need to take into account the shuttle times (maybe even more important) cause they tell you the stop & go capablity, how well the player can change direction. other skills like back peddle, use of hands (rules of engagement) ability to shawdow on the hip of the WR, tackling, break-ups, reading defenses, etc. etc. etc. are alot of the reasons I'm really high on Chevis or that I like LSU corners in general because they are athletic, big & physcial.

Fred Bennett may have only ran a 4.46 but his three cone shuttle was 6.67. Chris Houston ran a 4.32 yet managed only a 6.94. Chris was selected by the Falcons last year with our old pick (Schaub trade) while we all know the Texans traded down in the 4th & still got Bennett. thats scouting there big guy :shades:

badboy
02-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Well a situational pass rusher would come in for Weaver on 2nd and long or 3rd and anything longer than 3. I feel like CB, LT and RB will be selected in the 1st, 3rd, and 4th rounds. Dont really know the order or care as long as they are selecting the best guys available. I also dont think there will be a trade down since it is much harder to find a trade partner than everyone assumes. OLB may not be addressed til the 6th or 7th but Ithink it will happen. And just staight up Dayne or Forte, Forte. But thats not how it would actually work. Its Dayne and a whatever player we select at a position of need in the 4th or Forte(who will probably go in the 4th or could). That pick is more important to me on a different area of the field rather than trying to fill a hole that can be filled with a FA(Dayne).Yeah I pretty much agree with you on 1,3 &4th. Nice if we could get a CB starter in FA but not looking too good right now. I'd be ok with Dayne but for two years, he doesn't get going until 2nd half of year. Maybe Weaver will do better this year if he remains uninjured. He did have a shoulder problem.

badboy
02-19-2008, 03:38 PM
pure straight away speed (forty) is not the end all be all when it comes to football you need to take into account the shuttle times (maybe even more important) cause they tell you the stop & go capablity, how well the player can change direction. other skills like back peddle, use of hands (rules of engagement) ability to shawdow on the hip of the WR, tackling, break-ups, reading defenses, etc. etc. etc. are alot of the reasons I'm really high on Chevis or that I like LSU corners in general because they are athletic, big & physcial.

Fred Bennett may have only ran a 4.46 but his three cone shuttle was 6.67. Chris Houston ran a 4.32 yet managed only a 6.94. Chris was selected by the Falcons last year with our old pick (Schaub trade) while we all know the Texans traded down in the 4th & still got Bennett. thats scouting there big guy :shades:Yeah, we need to hold a group prayer that Smith is as successful this off season.

The1ApplePie
02-19-2008, 09:26 PM
Well I am not a Reggie Bush hater although I was hoping for a trade down to land a LT originally. I think if we could get a CB in FA or in draft (Bennett worked out well in 4th as I alluded to), draft a LT and pick up a FS (Terrell) and Harrison may do ok based on Smith's other choices last year (and Demps has not gone elsewhere yet) why not sign two RB to offer "Thunder and Lightning"?

As to a FB, I don't see a history of a FB hauling the ball, so why draft one?

I am not a Slaton fan but I could see Chris Johnson.

Hillis, Schmitt, or Hester can all catch and carry, and crush guys while lead blocking. Schmitt breaks helmets on a regular basis.

badboy
02-20-2008, 01:18 PM
Hillis, Schmitt, or Hester can all catch and carry, and crush guys while lead blocking. Schmitt breaks helmets on a regular basis.There is no TEXAN history of FB running the ball on a regular basis. They are primarily blockers with a very rare pass completion. Ours fit the system and I do not see need to waste a pick.

beerlover
02-20-2008, 01:47 PM
There is no TEXAN history of FB running the ball on a regular basis. They are primarily blockers with a very rare pass completion. Ours fit the system and I do not see need to waste a pick.

not sure about Schmitt but both Hester & Hillis would be NFL ZBS RB's.

badboy
02-20-2008, 02:15 PM
not sure about Schmitt but both Hester & Hillis would be NFL ZBS RB's.Cook and Leach are under contract thru 2010. Which do you let go and take cap hit on to draft one of these?

bah007
02-20-2008, 02:20 PM
Cook and Leach are under contract thru 2010. Which do you let go and take cap hit on to draft one of these?

They could just let Dayne go if they wanted to grab one of those guys. It doesnt have to be a FB.

badboy
02-20-2008, 02:24 PM
why do we need three Fb with all the other needs?

beerlover
02-20-2008, 02:44 PM
They could just let Dayne go if they wanted to grab one of those guys. It doesnt have to be a FB.

this is a tough call, regarding Dayne, he has helped the Texans win some games they never would have without him. while I do beleive in rewarding him for his services, going forward if you have the chance to improve the team long term you have to take it, keeping competitive advantage. Cook has done nothing positive, thats dead money either way.

I really like both Hester & Hillis :thisbig: besides, what if Texans don't draft a RB in the 1st/3rd rd's?