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PapaL
02-12-2008, 11:17 AM
Here's the Link (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/39890):


The Texans will draft a left tackle to groom behind Ephraim Salaam. They'll also draft a running back, a pass rushing end and a free safety. Right now, they have six picks. They might end up with one or two more, but it won't happen until draft day, in all probability. If Rick Smith re-signs Andre Davis, the Texans won't need a receiver.


Would this hint that regardless of who is drafted Salaam will be starting at LT next year?

Yeah I know it's Truth & Rumors - hopefully this stimulates so sort of conversation. Doubt it but none the less at least SI knows we need some OL help. :yawn:

TexansLucky13
02-12-2008, 11:22 AM
Will Salaam start at LT for game one? Probably.

Will Salaam start at LT by game sixteen? Maybe.

We all want to see Spencer picking up where he left off, but to be honest.... I wouldn't be at all surprised if Salaam starts the entire season. As far as drafting a LT.... I am not opposed to it. Can that person beat out Salaam? Probably not. They may see some garbage time action though.

Joe Texan
02-12-2008, 11:25 AM
They will all Start where Gibbs Lets them start

tulexan
02-12-2008, 11:25 AM
Interesting that they don't list CB has a need. I still think we draft a CB in the first unless Kenny Phillips is available.

headsplint
02-12-2008, 11:42 AM
Here's the Link (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/39890):



Would this hint that regardless of who is drafted Salaam will be starting at LT next year?

Yeah I know it's Truth & Rumors - hopefully this stimulates so sort of conversation. Doubt it but none the less at least SI knows we need some OL help. :yawn:

This is actually taken off this from John Mclain's blog here:

http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2008/02/texans_needs_in_the_draft_and.html

He pieced together his info from the videos in that article though. Not bad for him.

otisbean
02-12-2008, 11:43 AM
I think DB is most likely addressed in FA. Seems like there are several fairly good players available, and I am not talking about the big names like Samuels, Trufant, ect....

Dallas_Texan
02-12-2008, 11:43 AM
Interesting that they don't list CB has a need. I still think we draft a CB in the first unless Kenny Phillips is available.

I'm sure they already know exactly what they're doing about the CB position. It's WAY too key a position with our Defense for them to not have something up there sleeves. I think we'll be pleasantly surprised with our CB along side Bennett at the beginning of the season.

Lucky
02-12-2008, 11:49 AM
Interesting that they don't list CB has a need. I still think we draft a CB in the first unless Kenny Phillips is available.
Here's what McClain wrote earlier in the blog:

Many of you continue to think the Texans need to use thief first-round pick on a left tackle or a running back. My question to you is this: Who's going to play cornerback opposite Fred Bennett? Even if Dunta Robinson makes a miraculous comeback and plays before November, there's no guarantee he's going to pick up where he left off last season.


The Texans should approach the draft and free agency as if Robinson won't return in 2008. Von Hutchins, who filled in nicely, is a free agent, too. In other words, they must get a cornerback in free agency or the first round or both.

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 12:24 PM
And I agree.

But what the general is not posting is simply this: when does this organazation quit drafting for critical mass and start building a SB roster ?

Every year it's always something other than the o-line. the o-line has been pushed to the back of the stove for a while now. And the lines are the key. Make no mistake about it. You build from the inside out.

Nothing else works.

Not the playmakers, not the QB, not the Running back.Not the safties. You Tell me Gibbs is the savior of the o-line...prove it. Even coach Gibbs, as good as he is, has to have a starting point in tallent.

The safty pick tells me the Glen Earl experiment is over.

Vinny
02-12-2008, 12:29 PM
And I agree.

But what the general is not posting is simply this: when does this organazation quit drafting for critical mass and start building a SB roster ?

Every year it's always something other than the o-line. the o-line has been pushed to the back of the stove for a while now. And the lines are the key. Make no mistake about it. You build from the inside out.


there is no reason to think that you should draft a lineman just to draft a lineman...Robert Gallery was not a good pick, Jordan Gross has been average, Big Mike Williams was a super bust in Buffalo... It all depends on who is there. You can find guys who can start all over the first day of the draft....and further back at times.

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 12:33 PM
Will Salaam start at LT for game one? Probably.

Will Salaam start at LT by game sixteen? Maybe.

We all want to see Spencer picking up where he left off, but to be honest.... I wouldn't be at all surprised if Salaam starts the entire season. As far as drafting a LT.... I am not opposed to it. Can that person beat out Salaam? Probably not. They may see some garbage time action though.

Twenty six games and counting. Franchise QB #2 and counting. The stuff is already starting to fly. MS is hurt a lot therefore it is MS's fault. He's brittle. Prety damn convient if you ask me. Everytime you switch QBs...you set the franchise back five years. This is year three removed FHHSNBN. And they have drafted exacatly zero offensive lineman in the first two rounds since that time. Tallent matters. And switching QBs every five years is .... very expensive.

Second Honeymoon
02-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Interesting that they don't list CB has a need. I still think we draft a CB in the first unless Kenny Phillips is available.

Exactly. This guy seems to not be in touch with the situation. I would love to get an OT prospect but we need a CB or even a playmaking FS much more than we need a prospect OT this year. Maybe Tony Hills will be around in the 3rd Round and we can draft him. I just don't think there is an OT out there, other than Baker, that will still be around at #18 that would be a good value. I don't even want Clady at #18 and I hear he could be gone as early as New England's pick. We need DBs. I think Phillips and to a lesser extent Cason would give us good value at #18. Just my opinion but our secondary needs help and it needs help now.

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 12:48 PM
there is no reason to think that you should draft a lineman just to draft a lineman...Robert Gallery was not a good pick, Jordan Gross has been average, Big Mike Williams was a super bust in Buffalo... It all depends on who is there. You can find guys who can start all over the first day of the draft....and further back at times.

And that is exactly the point Vinny. You can say the same thing bout first round QBs.
Does that mean you shouldn't, out of hand, never select a QB in the first round ? The wives tell that you always take the franchise QB first when you have the chance is a ...lie ?

On the other hand you can say that they have never taken a FS high and therefore Kenny Phillips should be the selcetion. Or the RB....However, the difference between those two and say a king dunlap type fourth round or fifth round prospect is the fact that they will not get your forty-eight million dollar QB killed if they are forced to start. See what I mean ? Been a while since Bosselli stood at the podium....wanna draft them late and make it work...so far it hasn't worked. Didn't work last year. And just which day two guy on the roster do you feel really comfortble with in front of MS ? See what I mean ?

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 12:53 PM
And they have drafted exacatly zero offensive lineman in the first two rounds since that time. Tallent matters.

Oooh, three whole picks and look at the horrible talent they picked up--Mario, DeMeco and Omobi--two of who are fulfilling the building from the trenches motto.

Nice how you framed that as only the 1st two rounds since recognizing Spencer and Winston hurt your argument, well not really since it was so transparent.

And that is exactly the point Vinny. You can say the same thing bout first round QBs.
Does that mean you shouldn't, out of hand, never select a QB in the first round ?

The point isn't to never draft OL because they have busts, but to only draft players you think have the most talent/potential and not force a single position and increasing the risk of a bust as you advocate every year.

badboy
02-12-2008, 12:59 PM
And I agree.

But what the general is not posting is simply this: when does this organazation quit drafting for critical mass and start building a SB roster ?

Every year it's always something other than the o-line. the o-line has been pushed to the back of the stove for a while now. And the lines are the key. Make no mistake about it. You build from the inside out.

Nothing else works.

Not the playmakers, not the QB, not the Running back.Not the safties. You Tell me Gibbs is the savior of the o-line...prove it. Even coach Gibbs, as good as he is, has to have a starting point in tallent.

The safty pick tells me the Glen Earl experiment is over.Is there a LT availaible at #18 that will be worth that pick? Nope, IMO. Will Kubes want to re-sign Von Hutchins and hope? Will he go CB in first and save that cap? He could then go LT in 3rd (maybe Cousins orTony Hill) and we could see how great Gibbs and Oline coach really are. Personally, I see Salaam as the starter anyway. Then an RB in 4th such as Patrick Allen from Oklahoma? 6'1" 195 4.45 but not sure if he shows up 100%. Maybe a Cory Boyd?

A trade down offer will be there but will Smith acceptthe offer? If it were me, barring a sweet heart trade, I'd go 1st: Stewart rb 3rd Tony Hill ZBS LT deluxe 4th:Trae Williams cb 5'10" 193 lbs 5th: Darnell Terrell 6'2" 200 lbs 4.43 This cat can play both CB and FS.http://mutigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/terrell_darnell00.html
http://stl.scout.com/a.z?s=124&p=8&c=1&nid=3159672
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=61433Shows FS as #2 position

badboy
02-12-2008, 01:04 PM
Exactly. This guy seems to not be in touch with the situation. I would love to get an OT prospect but we need a CB or even a playmaking FS much more than we need a prospect OT this year. Maybe Tony Hills will be around in the 3rd Round and we can draft him. I just don't think there is an OT out there, other than Baker, that will still be around at #18 that would be a good value. I don't even want Clady at #18 and I hear he could be gone as early as New England's pick. We need DBs. I think Phillips and to a lesser extent Cason would give us good value at #18. Just my opinion but our secondary needs help and it needs help now.So far, Kubes has not agreed with you that FS is that important.

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 01:11 PM
Oooh, three whole picks and look at the horrible talent they picked up--Mario, DeMeco and Omobi--two of who are fulfilling the building from the trenches motto.

Nice how you framed that as only the 1st two rounds since recognizing Spencer and Winston hurt your argument, well not really since it was so transparent.



The point isn't to never draft OL because they have busts, but to only draft players you think have the most talent/potential and not force a single position and increasing the risk of a bust as you advocate every year.

Twenty six gmes and counting.... tick tock. Kick Winston over there...Frye. lol...Chester Pitts? Jordan Black...or Butler. Tell me another one.

the facts are and they have been posted several times.....play off teams feature high round picks on the left side. Not third rounders...not fifth rounders, but guys drafted in the first two rounds. We have zero of those guys. And... have never ever done it.

Satisfied with the results are you cak ?
Can you miss on them ?..uh huh....can you live without them and make serious SB run....nope.

The very moment the Texans break their trends, that will be the first step to the Sb run. Not before.

.

TK_Gamer
02-12-2008, 01:17 PM
Interesting that they don't list CB has a need. I still think we draft a CB in the first unless Kenny Phillips is available.

I honestly think we go after randal gay or similar FA for CB. regardless of when Dunta returns we need another corner anyway. Im guessing CB and LB in FA and OL, RB and safety in the draft, unless a pass rush specialist is available.

Maddict5
02-12-2008, 01:19 PM
Prety damn convient if you ask me. Everytime you switch QBs...you set the franchise back five years. This is year three removed FHHSNBN. And they have drafted exacatly zero offensive lineman in the first two rounds since that time. Tallent matters. And switching QBs every five years is .... very expensive.

lol.. thats old age for you.. check your calendar man- DC was a still a texan 11 months ago :cowboy1:

Polo
02-12-2008, 01:19 PM
The very moment the Texans break their trends, that will be the first step to the Sb run. Not before.



I don't see how you can talk in absolutes like that.

I can see the argument that picking a LT in the first makes positive scenario's more likely, but to suggest that is the only road available is just innaccurate.

Polo
02-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Here's the Link (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/39890):



Would this hint that regardless of who is drafted Salaam will be starting at LT next year?

Yeah I know it's Truth & Rumors - hopefully this stimulates so sort of conversation. Doubt it but none the less at least SI knows we need some OL help. :yawn:

Don't read too much into anything at this point in the year.

If there is a tackle that is better than Salaam in camp he will start. If not then Ephriam will be the man again.

Listening to Kubiak talk about the off-season (FA signing and draft) I got the feeling that they aren't going about things with a definite mind-set regarding player aquisitions and the draft.

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 01:25 PM
lol.. thats old age for you.. check your calendar man- DC was a still a texan 11 months ago :cowboy1:

Well since you're in the correcting mood, exactly how many times did they draft HHSNBN an o-lineman in the first round....and Pitts does not count. He was drafted as and only a left gaurd. that number would be zero. Funny how MS is trakcing down the same path...well maybe not so strange. Wouldn't you agree ?

The one way we can say beyound doubt has cost us one QB. The only questions remaining now is will it cost us two ? And how many drafts go by before they fix it and change the franchise's course ?

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 01:27 PM
Twenty six gmes and counting.... tick tock.

Last I checked, they don't have drafts in between games. Fact--three picks during the Kubiak era in the 1st two rounds. Two went to the trenches and you sure as heck aren't going to make a good argument the probowl 3rd pick didn't bring talent to the team.

the facts are and they have been posted several times.....play off teams feature high round picks on the left side. Not third rounders...not fifth rounders, but guys drafted in the first two rounds.

Can you miss on them ?..uh huh....can you live without them and make serious SB run....nope.

Please call 1-800-extract-foot,

Signed,

David Diehl
5th round pick
LT for the Super Bowl Champion Giants

The one way we can say beyound doubt has cost us one QB.

BS.

Signed,

The entire football watching world

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Last I checked, they don't have drafts in between games. Fact--three picks during the Kubiak era in the 1st two rounds. Two went to the trenches and you sure as heck aren't going to make a good argument the probowl 3rd pick didn't bring talent to the team.



Please call 1-800-extract-foot,

Signed,

David Diehl
5th round pick
LT for the Super Bowl Champion Giants

and the speculation is they are going to let him go.

BS.

Signed,

The entire football watching world
__________________

The same ones who gauranteed a Pats blow out ?

Well, the longer it gets ignored...the more the odds increase we get to relive history.
And for three years you've regurgated the same allibi....Gibbs better be good.
If MS becomes damged goods the next two years....the only parameters that havn't changed is the tallent on the o-line. And how this club selects and aquires them. And that there thingy is a fact. Live with mediocre tallent you get mediocre resluts. Say you can get them in day two...they haven't so far. Top five o-line ? nope. Far from it.

Polo
02-12-2008, 01:32 PM
Funny how MS is trakcing down the same path...well maybe not so strange. Wouldn't you agree ?


David Carr was a self sacking fool.

Schaub is not.

For some reason I don't see Schaub's Texans career heading in the same direction as Carr's.

Your statement is almost saying "it was the line and not Carr"....

...and that is pretty scary....

Vinny
02-12-2008, 01:33 PM
Funny how MS is trakcing down the same path...well maybe not so strange. Wouldn't you agree ?Pete, when we sat together at the practice last year I found your wife to be pretty darn knowledgeable. Sometimes I think your wife has a better idea of what she is looking at than you...if you can't see a difference in Schaub and Carr you may have to ask your wife to explain it to you.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 01:33 PM
2007 Playoff LT's

New England Patriots: Matt Light, 48th pick (2nd Round)- 7th Season
New York Giants: David Diehl (Guard), 160th pick (5th Round)- 5th Season
San Diego Chargers: Marcus McNeill, 50th pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Green Bay Packers: Chad Clifton, 44th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season
Indianapolis Colts: Tony Ugoh, 42nd pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Dallas Cowboys: Flozell Adams (Guard), 38th pick (2nd Round)- 10th Season
Jacksonville Jaguars: Khalif Barnes, 52nd pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Tennessee Titans: Michael Roos, 41st pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Washington Redskins: Chris Samuels, 3rd pick (1st Round)- 8th Season
Seattle Seahawks: Walter Jones, 6th pick (1st Round)- 11th Season
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Donald Penn, Undrafted by the Vikings- 2nd Season
Pittsburgh Steelers: Max Starks, 75th pick (3rd Round)- 4th Season
.........................>Marvel Smith, 38th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season

Ephraim Salaam, 199th pick (7th Round) by Atlanta- 7th Season
Charles Spencer, 33rd pick (3rd Round)- 2nd Season- IR

A trade down and a selection of Anthony Collins sounds REAL nice to me.

Maddict5
02-12-2008, 01:35 PM
Well since you're in the correcting mood, ecaxtly how many times did they draft HHNBN an o-lineman in the firt round....and Pitts does not count. He was drafted as and only a left gaurd. that number would be zero. Funny how MS is trakcing down the same path...well maybe not so strange. Wouldn't you agree ?

The one way we can say beyound doubt has cost us one QB. The only question remining now is will it cost us two ?

well since im in a correcting mood apparently, id tell you that pitts was a 3rd rd'er anyway so it doesnt matter if he was brought in to be a G or T..

how about my question for you: how many first day linemen did gary kubiak (you know- our CURRENT HC dr) draft to protect HWWNBN... 2 out of the 4 available picks- thats how many. dont get all wrapped up in first rounders, you can get quality opening-day starters throughout day1 especially and sometimes day 2 if you groom them....


and just FYI- anthony collins is near the top of my list of players id like us to draft this year... i agree we need a new LT- just not hellbent that it has to be a first rounder like you

Vinny
02-12-2008, 01:37 PM
well since im in a correcting mood apparently, id tell you that pitts was a 3rd rd'er anyway so it doesnt matter if he was brought in to be a G or T..

Pitts was one of our two second round picks that year. 50th overall.

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 01:37 PM
and the speculation is they are going to let him go.

And that makes your silly & incredibly untimely assertion not 1000% wrong how?

Maddict5
02-12-2008, 01:38 PM
2007 Playoff LT's



A trade down and a selection of Anthony Collins sounds REAL nice to me.

ha! beat me to it by a minute

and just in addition to that list since its somewhat relevant to what we're doing down here and who was a playoff LT (and all-pro i think)

Matt Lepsis UDFA

Maddict5
02-12-2008, 01:38 PM
Pitts was one of our two second round picks that year. 50th overall.

my bad.. i knew he was our 3rd pick that year

HOU-TEX
02-12-2008, 01:54 PM
and the speculation is they are going to let him go.



The same ones who gauranteed a Pats blow out ?

Well, the longer it gets ignored...the more the odds increase we get to relive history.
And for three years you've regurgated the same allibi....Gibbs better be good.
If MS becomes damged goods the next two years....the only parameters that havn't changed is the tallent on the o-line. And how this club selects and aquires them. And that there thingy is a fact. Live with mediocre tallent you get mediocre resluts. Say you can get them in day two...they haven't so far. Top five o-line ? nope. Far from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAs6TDLuKgQ

threetoedpete
02-12-2008, 02:32 PM
And that makes your silly & incredibly untimely assertion not 1000% wrong how?

Becuse his tallent level is so good they are willing to pay him top dollar for a left gaurd? They are willing to let him walk becuse they can replace him with a free agent and break even. Tallent level ?

and Yes they Could Draft Cottam late. Might even work and he becomes Probowler....The last time I checked Lepsis wasn't forced to start his first two years.

Lepsis went to the University of Colorado, where he earned All-Big Eight Conference honors as a tight end, before going to the NFL were he would be signed as an undrafted free agent in 1997 by the Denver Broncos. He did not miss an offensive snap on a 2004 line that set a franchise record by allowing only 15 sacks, shattering the previous best of 22 sacks set in 1971, to rank third in the NFL.

So correct me if I'm worng since 1997 there have been two TE taken and made the flip. Lepsis and Jason Peters. Two guys in ten years ? So what you're telling me with the Lepsis post is that you are perfectly willing to draft Cottam and wait two years for him to become probowler. Uh huh now tell me another one. What I'm reading form these posts is they will never do it and right not to do it

And what I'm posting is that you are well on the path to start checking out the hot shot QBs that just singed their letters of intent last week. Because from my tree if something doesn't change radically, one of those guys could well be franchise QB #3.

The odds are just like the Junior College guys who jump into the NFL and make it. For a TE to make the transition the odds are long. Especially with a free agent TE. And those odds would be slim and none. You are allso telling me you feel we can wait another two years to let soemone develope. This line has one and only one good player on it.
They can't afford to wait on squat. They live with what they have the result next year will be eriely simular to last year.

Well Vinny I see it coming. Now I may not be the expert you are...but what I will say the longer they stand pat the longer the wait on the play offs are.

The tallent on the o-line is marginal at best, been that way for five years....and aparently everyone on the board is perfectly happy with the results. Draft the free safty first by guad full speed ahead.

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 02:42 PM
Becuse his tallent level is so good they are willing to pay him top dollar for a left gaurd? They are willing to let him walk becuse they can replace him with a free agent and break even. Tallent level ?

A--it is talent, not tallent.

B--what the heck are you talking about?

You said a team couldn't make a SB run with a 5th round LT.

The Giants didn't just make a run but won the SB with a 5th round guy playing out of position at LT.

Therefore, your assertion was wrong and particularly untimely.

So what you're telling me with the Lepsis post

Must be responding to the wrong person.

Look, the Texans don't have a 2nd round pick. By your repeated rants, no matter who is available at either LT or any other position, the only acceptable pick is the OT. Then you act like it is a matter of talent, and that is the only spot you are correct because that is a sure fire train of thought for acquiring a less talented player.

GP
02-12-2008, 02:59 PM
I used to be a "gotta' draft o line in the first round" guy.

And while I am happy with the Amobi pick...you have to stop and wonder what would our team look like if we had been able to step up a few slots in the draft and get Adrian Peterson?

Can you imagine what a TRUE threat at running back would have done for our passing game and our win total this season? We are on life support at running back. The "Draft a guy in the 7th, or get a UDFA" system is wearing me out.

Meanwhile, we're dropping in Sacks Allowed from 60+...to 40-something...and then last year's low 20s. That's a b-i-g reduction, consistently, over the past three seasons since Kubiak arrived and installed a real offense.

You guys DO realize that the vastly lowered "Sacks Allowed" numbers point to the idea that our o line is not as bad as we think/thought it was/is?

Just saying: What if we had a homerun hitter at running back?

steelbtexan
02-12-2008, 03:10 PM
Twenty six games and counting. Franchise QB #2 and counting. The stuff is already starting to fly. MS is hurt a lot therefore it is MS's fault. He's brittle. Prety damn convient if you ask me. Everytime you switch QBs...you set the franchise back five years. This is year three removed FHHSNBN. And they have drafted exacatly zero offensive lineman in the first two rounds since that time. Tallent matters. And switching QBs every five years is .... very expensive.

I agree with you TTP allof the plaayoff teams had 1st or 2nd rd. LT's. I still think we should go with BPA & if Campbell or Cromartie are there we have to take them. That's why I propose trading an 08 3rd & an 09 3rd to move back into the 2nd rd. & take Collins. Then in the 4th I would take the best CB I could find unless one of the rb's fell.

If a LT is the BPA I say take him.

Goldensilence
02-12-2008, 03:15 PM
I used to be a "gotta' draft o line in the first round" guy.

And while I am happy with the Amobi pick...you have to stop and wonder what would our team look like if we had been able to step up a few slots in the draft and get Adrian Peterson?

Can you imagine what a TRUE threat at running back would have done for our passing game and our win total this season? We are on life support at running back. The "Draft a guy in the 7th, or get a UDFA" system is wearing me out.

Meanwhile, we're dropping in Sacks Allowed from 60+...to 40-something...and then last year's low 20s. That's a b-i-g reduction, consistently, over the past three seasons since Kubiak arrived and installed a real offense.

You guys DO realize that the vastly lowered "Sacks Allowed" numbers point to the idea that our o line is not as bad as we think/thought it was/is?

Just saying: What if we had a homerun hitter at running back?

I think sack numbers don't really indicate the problems we still have on the oline. What I'm more concerned is hurries and knockdowns on a consistant basis. Those are the things that kill game plans and knock offenses out of sync. HWWNBN couldn't read a defense or make a pre-snap adjustment to save his career literally. The sack numbers went down because we got rid of the ball quickly and had QBS who could make pre-snap adjustments.

Good as AP is...keep in mind Chester Taylor did well before him.... I'm just going to point out the appearance of Steve Hutchinson and the ground game in Minnesota takes off....and the ground game in Seattle Tapers off.

Keep in mind GP what we would've had to do to move up to get AP.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Meanwhile, we're dropping in Sacks Allowed from 60+...to 40-something...and then last year's low 20s. That's a b-i-g reduction, consistently, over the past three seasons since Kubiak arrived and installed a real offense.

You guys DO realize that the vastly lowered "Sacks Allowed" numbers point to the idea that our o line is not as bad as we think/thought it was/is?


I think we're dropping in sacks for a couple of reasons: (1) Better QB play and (2) better OL play.

I'd be careful relating the decrease in sacks strictly to better OL play. The way I see it is that the # of QB hurries is probably remaining roughly the same. Matt Schaub is getting hit even when he throws the ball away. How many times did he do the smart thing in throwing it away instead of taking the sack? A Lot. but he still gets hit, knocked to the ground, and hurried. Sacks are only one part of judging a QB/OL/ DL.

Bottom line is the OL has got to get stronger for us to consistently beat good teams and consistently make playoff runs.

Vinny
02-12-2008, 03:30 PM
How many times did he do the smart thing in throwing it away instead of taking the sack? A Lot.
He completed 67% of his passes...so he didn't throw the ball away as much as you think.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 03:31 PM
I think sack numbers don't really indicate the problems we still have on the oline. What I'm more concerned is hurries and knockdowns on a consistant basis. Those are the things that kill game plans and knock offenses out of sync. HWWNBN couldn't read a defense or make a pre-snap adjustment to save his career literally. The sack numbers went down because we got rid of the ball quickly and had QBS who could make pre-snap adjustments.

Good as AP is...keep in mind Chester Taylor did well before him.... I'm just going to point out the appearance of Steve Hutchinson and the ground game in Minnesota takes off....and the ground game in Seattle Tapers off.

Keep in mind GP what we would've had to do to move up to get AP.

I concur ; )

Edge may have lost a step when moving from Indy to Arizona but he was still a darn good RB. Couldn't really produce much and my guess is to blame the OL. Meanwhile- Addai steps in and does well in Indy. AP goes in behind the Minn. OL and does well. Let McFadden go to Oakland and see how well he does...my guess not very well (people will call him a bust). Put him behind a better OL and watch him do very well.

No question AP would have still been a man among boys here in Houston but I don't think he would have had the same season as he did in Minny.

My guess as far as trading up to get AP would be to move up to Washington's spot having to give them our 2007 1st and 3rd rd picks + 2008 3rd round pick. So we'd have Adrian Peterson (no Jacoby Jones), but we wouldn't have our 2008 2nd or 3rd round picks. Amobi Okoye, Jacoby Jones, and 2008 3rd round pick for Adrian Peterson? For the long term building of my team I say probably not...but jeez it's still almost a Push. Peterson is dynomite.

steelbtexan
02-12-2008, 03:33 PM
We spent $48 mil. on MS don't you think we should do everything we can to protect him? I bet KUBES does.

Texan_Bill
02-12-2008, 03:41 PM
Bottom line is that the Texans passing offense was ranked 11th in the NFL. The Texans Defense was ranked 24th overall AND lost Dunta Robinson and three other DB's AND has no playmaker at OLB...

I think its fairly evident what side of the ball the Texans should be looking at first during the draft. If the right O-lineman is there, fine - but don't 'stretch' on a player as a knee-jerk reaction to a supposed or over-stated need..

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 03:44 PM
He completed 67% of his passes...so he didn't throw the ball away as much as you think.

Keep Schaub in there the whole season, his sacks goes from 16 to 23. That puts him at 17th most sacked QB in the league last year. Say he avoids 1 sack every other game by throwing it away and that puts his sack total to 31 and gets our OL blamed for allowing the 8th most sacks in the league.

Now that's far from an exact science I will admit that but I think Schaub avoiding one sack every two games is extremely conservative. Could be wrong but that's something that would really interest me to find out. But admittingly will NOT take the time to worry about it. :)

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Bottom line is that the Texans passing offense was ranked 11th in the NFL. The Texans Defense was ranked 24th overall AND lost Dunta Robinson and three other DB's AND has no playmaker at OLB...

I think its fairly evident what side of the ball the Texans should be looking at first during the draft. If the right O-lineman is there, fine - but don't 'stretch' on a player as a knee-jerk reaction to a supposed or over-stated need..

Good points. I think the first round has a few options: (1) LT if he warrants the pick- Chris Williams? (2) Rashard Mendenhall at RB would be extremely tempting if he's even available (3) Trade down targeting a good ZBS LT like Anthony Collins (4) Go best available stressing secondary mainly CB like Talib, Jenkins, McKelvin, Cromartie, Cason, etc or trade down targeting a preferred couple of CB's

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 03:48 PM
Keep Schaub in there the whole season, his sacks goes from 16 to 23. That puts him at 17th most sacked QB in the league last year.

Totally apples and oranges. You can't compare one QB projected on a whole season against a bunch of guys that didn't play the whole year. 23 sacks would have been 7th best in the league this year for a team and is a good total sack number in any year for any QB not named Aikman or Manning.

that puts his sack total to 31 and gets our OL blamed for allowing the 8th most sacks in the league.

31 sacks on the season would have put the Texans at 15th best in the league in sacks, not 24th which gave up 43 sacks.

badboy
02-12-2008, 04:00 PM
I used to be a "gotta' draft o line in the first round" guy.

And while I am happy with the Amobi pick...you have to stop and wonder what would our team look like if we had been able to step up a few slots in the draft and get Adrian Peterson?

Can you imagine what a TRUE threat at running back would have done for our passing game and our win total this season? We are on life support at running back. The "Draft a guy in the 7th, or get a UDFA" system is wearing me out.

Meanwhile, we're dropping in Sacks Allowed from 60+...to 40-something...and then last year's low 20s. That's a b-i-g reduction, consistently, over the past three seasons since Kubiak arrived and installed a real offense.

You guys DO realize that the vastly lowered "Sacks Allowed" numbers point to the idea that our o line is not as bad as we think/thought it was/is?

Just saying: What if we had a homerun hitter at running back?I don't know. Is it the same offensive line with same offensive blocking schemes? Take an Rb like Earl Campbell and have him stay in and block the blitz. Is he still going to lead the NFL in rushing?

Vinny
02-12-2008, 04:03 PM
I don't know. Is it the same offensive line with same offensive blocking schemes? Take an Rb like Earl Campbell and have him stay in and block the blitz. Is he still going to lead the NFL in rushing?Earl stayed in to block when we were blitzed...he had rotten hands and couldn't catch a cold.

Second Honeymoon
02-12-2008, 04:04 PM
Boy, its sure ironic how posters blamed the OL for sacks during Carr's time here but now do the polar opposite and blame all the sacks on Schaub.

Which is it? I just think its sad that one guy gets 5 years of failed promise and parades of excuses while the other guy gets blamed for shortcomings even in his first year as a starter.

Some people just think that once you draft an OT in teh 1st Round, that your line just magically transforms into pro bowl caliber. It's not that simple. It takes drafting guys in the later rounds like Pitts, Winston, Spencer, and Weary and making those guys into something. I don't think Gibbs is lobbying for the 1st Round pick to be used on OT. Go look at the OL around the league. It's painfully obvious you don't have to be some 5 star 1st Round pick to succeed and help your team compete. You just need good coaching and a good scheme....which I believe we have in Gibbs in regards to OL.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 04:05 PM
Totally apples and oranges. You can't compare one QB projected on a whole season against a bunch of guys that didn't play the whole year. 23 sacks would have been 7th best in the league this year for a team and is a good total sack number in any year for any QB not named Aikman or Manning.


I'm not arguing 23 sacks isn't good. I'm saying that it's an inflated number because of Schaubs pocket presence. That it's not completely a result of better OL play that only 23 sacks would have been given up. I'm saying he cut down on the sacks to make it that good by getting rid of the ball like every good QB is taught to do.


31 sacks on the season would have put the Texans at 15th best in the league in sacks, not 24th which gave up 43 sacks.[/QUOTE]

I was looking at the # sacks per QB this regular season starting with the most:
1. Jon Kitna sacked 51 times.
2. Ben Roethlisberger- 47x
3. Donovan McNabb- 44x
4. Marc Bulger- 37x
5. Damon Huard- 36x
6. Matt Hasselbeck- 33x
7. Joey Harrington- 32x

If Schaub would have played to whole Reg. season my guestimate would be appx. 23 sacks which would have been middle of the pack 17th. However, he was hurried a lot, hit a lot, etc.

Second Honeymoon
02-12-2008, 04:07 PM
Bottom line is that the Texans passing offense was ranked 11th in the NFL. The Texans Defense was ranked 24th overall AND lost Dunta Robinson and three other DB's AND has no playmaker at OLB...

I think its fairly evident what side of the ball the Texans should be looking at first during the draft. If the right O-lineman is there, fine - but don't 'stretch' on a player as a knee-jerk reaction to a supposed or over-stated need..

Thank you, TB. You have injected solid logic into a Chicken Little thread.

badboy
02-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Earl stayed in to block when we were blitzed...he had rotten hands and couldn't catch a cold.My point exactly. You can't take away what a player does best and then blame them for not doing their best. The oline underwent numerous co-ordinators and were not known for pass blocking skills under Capers. There has been tremendous turn over in players, so how can we say this oline is better that previous based on reduction of sacks? Could Kubes and perhaps Gibbs done better with our 2nd and third years oline?

Texan_Bill
02-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Earl stayed in to block when we were blitzed...he had rotten hands and couldn't catch a cold.

Very true.. As much as Earl was loved, he was somewhat a liability when it came to checking down or having a safety valve to throw to.. His hands were bricks... Fortunately, you knew that and schemed around it...

Vinny
02-12-2008, 04:11 PM
I'm not arguing 23 sacks isn't good. I'm saying that it's an inflated number because of Schaubs pocket presence. That it's not completely a result of better OL play that only 23 sacks would have been given up. I'm saying he cut down on the sacks to make it that good by getting rid of the ball like every good QB is taught to do.


31 sacks on the season would have put the Texans at 15th best in the league in sacks, not 24th which gave up 43 sacks.

I was looking at the # sacks per QB this regular season starting with the most:
1. Jon Kitna sacked 51 times.
2. Ben Roethlisberger- 47x
3. Donovan McNabb- 44x
4. Marc Bulger- 37x
5. Damon Huard- 36x
6. Matt Hasselbeck- 33x
7. Joey Harrington- 32x

If Schaub would have played to whole Reg. season my guestimate would be appx. 23 sacks which would have been middle of the pack 17th. However, he was hurried a lot, hit a lot, etc.
If we had any semblance of running game the sack numbers would be smaller....you don't have to run deep patterns when you are in 3rd and short.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 04:13 PM
Boy, its sure ironic how posters blamed the OL for sacks during Carr's time here but now do the polar opposite and blame all the sacks on Schaub.

Which is it? I just think its sad that one guy gets 5 years of failed promise and parades of excuses while the other guy gets blamed for shortcomings even in his first year as a starter.

Some people just think that once you draft an OT in teh 1st Round, that your line just magically transforms into pro bowl caliber. It's not that simple. It takes drafting guys in the later rounds like Pitts, Winston, Spencer, and Weary and making those guys into something. I don't think Gibbs is lobbying for the 1st Round pick to be used on OT. Go look at the OL around the league. It's painfully obvious you don't have to be some 5 star 1st Round pick to succeed and help your team compete. You just need good coaching and a good scheme....which I believe we have in Gibbs in regards to OL.

Just out of curiosity who's blaming the sacks on Schaub?

2nd round pick- Chester Pitts (50)
3rd round picks- Fred Weary (66), Charles Spencer (65), Eric Winston (66)

I wouldn't necessarily call them later round picks, but do agree with your thinking. It takes good scouting and coaching. Get quality players and coach them the right way. Generally a 1st round LT that fits your scheme will be more athletic and probably be able to start quicker than a 4th+ rounder. I'm looking forward to Gibbs working with whomever he likes and gettin' this line put together.

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2008, 04:16 PM
If we had any semblance of running game the sack numbers would be smaller....you don't have to run deep patterns when you are in 3rd and short.

Agreed- plus it would keep the drives going, keeping the other teams D on the field. Keep our D on the sidelines resting a little more.

This isn't helping me come to ANY conclusion on our 1st round pick though (LT, RB, CB)... I'm glad I won't be forced to make the decision. There's perfect arguements for each!

GP
02-12-2008, 05:12 PM
I think sack numbers don't really indicate the problems we still have on the oline. What I'm more concerned is hurries and knockdowns on a consistant basis. Those are the things that kill game plans and knock offenses out of sync. HWWNBN couldn't read a defense or make a pre-snap adjustment to save his career literally. The sack numbers went down because we got rid of the ball quickly and had QBS who could make pre-snap adjustments.

Good as AP is...keep in mind Chester Taylor did well before him.... I'm just going to point out the appearance of Steve Hutchinson and the ground game in Minnesota takes off....and the ground game in Seattle Tapers off.

Keep in mind GP what we would've had to do to move up to get AP.

I agree that hurries and knockdowns are part of the overall equation.

Also, there IS something to the Seattle decline and the Vikings rise (as it relates to blocking). Well put.

GP
02-12-2008, 05:14 PM
If we had any semblance of running game the sack numbers would be smaller....you don't have to run deep patterns when you are in 3rd and short.

foxsports.com has us taking Mendenhall.

Would be fine with me.

steelbtexan
02-12-2008, 05:33 PM
If we had any semblance of running game the sack numbers would be smaller....you don't have to run deep patterns when you are in 3rd and short.

If we had a decent O-LINE it would help the running game & the passing game. It would also keep a defense lacking in talent off the field. I believe this is a deep RB class & we can find a very productive rb in rds. 3 thru 5

infantrycak
02-12-2008, 05:39 PM
Boy, its sure ironic how posters blamed the OL for sacks during Carr's time here but now do the polar opposite and blame all the sacks on Schaub.

Which is it? I just think its sad that one guy gets 5 years of failed promise and parades of excuses while the other guy gets blamed for shortcomings even in his first year as a starter.

Seriously, do you think there is anyone on this MB that isn't well aware of your stance on Carr. Dude has been gone almost a year and yet the incessant references continue. Let it go. The Texans have moved on--time for you to as well.

Texan_Bill
02-12-2008, 06:02 PM
If we had a decent O-LINE it would help the running game & the passing game. It would also keep a defense lacking in talent off the field. I believe this is a deep RB class & we can find a very productive rb in rds. 3 thru 5

14th ranked offense - overall.

11th ranked passing offense with AJ gone for 7 games. Nothing to really over-haul there.

22nd ranked rushing offense but to put things into perspective, the final two games were started by a guy who was 6th on the depth chart in pre-season and cut before the season started. This says more about the backs than it does the O-line...

No one here is suggesting that the O-line is all that great, but it certainly is not as bad as some others might suggest. If the right moves are there, sure go for it, but don't gamble or be so closed-minded that you wind up 'reaching' for an O-lineman...

I would rather see the picks spent on defense unless the right RB is out there.

PHAROAH
02-12-2008, 06:19 PM
14th ranked offense - overall.

11th ranked passing offense with AJ gone for 7 games. Nothing to really over-haul there.

22nd ranked rushing offense but to put things into perspective, the final two games were started by a guy who was 6th on the depth chart in pre-season and cut before the season started. This says more about the backs than it does the O-line...

No one here is suggesting that the O-line is all that great, but it certainly is not as bad as some others might suggest. If the right moves are there, sure go for it, but don't gamble or be so closed-minded that you wind up 'reaching' for an O-lineman...

I would rather see the picks spent on defense unless the right RB is out there.
I think it has a lot to do with coaching and scheme of the issues the offensive line had last year.

ATXtexanfan
02-12-2008, 06:52 PM
love this thread guys, our first round pick has to be a starter on defense, i'm tired of seeing so-so qb's shred our defense, take away the turnovers and our offense is great, keep building the defense, "offense sell tickets, defense wins championships", giants D was mvp of playoffs, not just the superbowl

Second Honeymoon
02-12-2008, 07:52 PM
Seriously, do you think there is anyone on this MB that isn't well aware of your stance on Carr. Dude has been gone almost a year and yet the incessant references continue. Let it go. The Texans have moved on--time for you to as well.

he hasn't been off the team that long. we are one season removed from him being the face of the franchise. i just think its funny how some people think that the only reason we arent in the Super Bowl is because we havent spent a first round draft pick on an Offensive Line and that somehow that also ruined Carr and is now going to ruin Schaub unless we spend our first pick on OL. Fools gold.

Draft the best defensive player available. The offense isn't that far off and lets see what Gibbs can do with the talent we have already accumulated.

steelbtexan
02-12-2008, 08:15 PM
I'm sure RS & KUBES will do what they have done in their first 2 drafts, take the BPA.

TexansSeminole
02-12-2008, 08:52 PM
We need a starter out of our first pick. I don't want to see us draft a LT and see him sit behind Salaam for a year. This team has way too many problems on defense to be picking a offensive lineman first so he can sit on the bench and watch.

mexican_texan
02-12-2008, 09:19 PM
I wouldn't mind a guy like Mendenhall or Stewart, a thick legged RB, but I don't think RB is a pressing enough need to take one in the first round.

Texans Horror
02-12-2008, 09:35 PM
Great thread.

Having Salaam in at LT is at best an injury gamble due to the man's age. At worst, he was completely blown by often, and along with the non-McKinney Center, looked like the weak link in an otherwise mediocre offensive line. The Texans are now an average, mediocre team looking to make the jump into the play-offs. In order to do that, they will have to continue building from the trenches, and IMO LT is still one of the weakest points along the line. It is especially weak since every game is a potential injury to Salaam. It would behoove the Texans to draft the best possible left tackle they can to replace Salaam and not depend on him and Spencer to pick up the LT duties. Whether that factors as higher than the need for a running back or defensive back remains to be seen, but there are valid justifications for looking into LTs during the draft.

ChampionTexan
02-12-2008, 09:49 PM
Keep Schaub in there the whole season, his sacks goes from 16 to 23. That puts him at 17th most sacked QB in the league last year. Say he avoids 1 sack every other game by throwing it away and that puts his sack total to 31 and gets our OL blamed for allowing the 8th most sacks in the league.

Now that's far from an exact science I will admit that but I think Schaub avoiding one sack every two games is extremely conservative. Could be wrong but that's something that would really interest me to find out. But admittingly will NOT take the time to worry about it. :)

Not only is it not an exact science, but it's entirely flawed logic. If I understand the first part of this, you're saying that if Schaub had played the whole season instead of being injured, our team sacks would have gone from 22 to 23? Okay - maybe, but so what?

Then you say if you add 8 sacks to our total for something every team in the league does (and do nothing to anybody else's), we would be 8th worst in the league. First, we'd be 15th best in the league - not 8th worst, but secondly, this makes about as much sense as saying "Yeah, but if the NFL counted every one of our sacks two times (and everyone else's only once), our statistics wouldn't look nearly as good.

Having said all that, if everything else is equal, I'd like to see the first round pick be an OLT or CB (if they don't trade the pick). If the best OLT/CB ranks a 75 on a scale of 1 - 100 and there's another player who's a 85 or better, I probably want to go with the 85.

Giant Tiger
02-12-2008, 10:06 PM
We need a starter out of our first pick. I don't want to see us draft a LT and see him sit behind Salaam for a year. This team has way too many problems on defense to be picking a offensive lineman first so he can sit on the bench and watch.

If the bpa is a LT-I would take him even if he has to sit. I just don't want to start a rookie LT if Spencer comes back and plays RG. I like Salaam. We need his experience, but he won't be around forever. We need depth on our OL anyway. But I don't have a problem with taking a CB if he's the bpa.

AnthonyE
02-12-2008, 10:30 PM
Twenty six gmes and counting.... tick tock. Kick Winston over there...Frye. lol...Chester Pitts? Jordan Black...or Butler. Tell me another one.

the facts are and they have been posted several times.....play off teams feature high round picks on the left side. Not third rounders...not fifth rounders, but guys drafted in the first two rounds. We have zero of those guys. And... have never ever done it.
Satisfied with the results are you cak ?
Can you miss on them ?..uh huh....can you live without them and make serious SB run....nope.

The very moment the Texans break their trends, that will be the first step to the Sb run. Not before.

.

ZBS mentality is not to draft OL high.

T Tony Jones - Undrafted
T/G Matt Lepsis - Undrafted (started 16 games his rookie year)
C Tom Nalen - 7th Round
G/C Dan Neil - 3rd round (only day one on here)
Harry Swayne - 7th Round
G - Mark Schlereth - 10th round

All of these players played 16 games for the 1998 Broncos team.

Lucky
02-12-2008, 10:45 PM
T/G Matt Lepsis - Undrafted (started 16 games his rookie year)

Lepsis (http://www.nfl.com/players/mattlepsis/careerstats?id=LEP528552) didn't become a starter until his 3rd year.

AnthonyE
02-12-2008, 10:51 PM
Lepsis (http://www.nfl.com/players/mattlepsis/careerstats?id=LEP528552) didn't become a starter until his 3rd year.

Oh, sorry. Misread. Saw 1998, 16 games played. Didn't see all of special teams. Also, my source didn't show the 1997 season, he was out with a knee injury. I assumed it was 1998. Oh well, my point remains valid. ZBS doesn't need a OL high.

leebigeztx
02-12-2008, 11:06 PM
There are 2 positions gibbs will teach,line and rb. He will watch tape of certain rb's and line and determine if he can coach the guy or not. Its been stated that he hates linemen taken before the 3rd or so. I can't see him or kubes all of a sudden changing their thought process.

The superbowl just reafirms what thw texans have been trying to do. The only thing that effects the great qbs is pressure from the front 4. The front have to get pressure and the backend has to cover Its the oldest trick in the book and it stil works. The giants didn't peform a miracle by scheme or anything. They knew that u can't double team everyone on the line. The guys have to win their one on one battles.

That said, the d-line is getting better. Mario and Omobi can get the pressure, but johnson and weaver are not getting I done. Ryans is good, greenwood can go. Bennett is a keeper as well as dunta and demps for the right price. Safety should be a target n the 1st or 3rd rd. Fre agency will really tell what direction the team wil go in the draft.

I think this team is right there, they just need to keep building.

dalemurphy
02-12-2008, 11:15 PM
Twenty six gmes and counting.... tick tock. Kick Winston over there...Frye. lol...Chester Pitts? Jordan Black...or Butler. Tell me another one.

the facts are and they have been posted several times.....play off teams feature high round picks on the left side. Not third rounders...not fifth rounders, but guys drafted in the first two rounds. We have zero of those guys. And... have never ever done it.

Satisfied with the results are you cak ?
Can you miss on them ?..uh huh....can you live without them and make serious SB run....nope.

The very moment the Texans break their trends, that will be the first step to the Sb run. Not before.

.


Superbowl LTs: Matt Light and D. Diehl- neither were 1st round

Flozell Adams
Tony Ugoh
MMcNeil.... I believe all three of those guys are 2nd round picks.

Okay, Winston and Spencer were the 1st two picks of the 3rd round. Pitts was selected in the middle of the 2nd round... those are all very close to where the above list was selected. My question, is what would you have done differently in the first and second rounds the past two years?

let's see: you'd replace Mario, Demeco, Okoye, or MSchaub... and, who would you have drafted instead. I'd argue that you can't improve on the draft even cherry-picking 1-2 years after the fact!

I share your frustration. I want a great line too. However, I also wanted a QB, a DL, a LB, CB would be nice, etc... The reality of a 2-14 team is that there are too many holes to fill.

Lucky
02-12-2008, 11:19 PM
Oh well, my point remains valid. ZBS doesn't need a OL high.
I think the point is that this particular zone blocking team didn't need a 1st round pick on the offensive line. But, the '98 Broncos o-line was bought more than developed. Tony Jones was picked up in a trade with the Ravens for a 2nd round pick. Schlereth and Swayne were Super Bowls starters prior to signing with Denver as vet free agents. To duplicate how Denver put their line together, the Texans would have to trade a 1st day pick for a LT, and sign a couple of offensive linemen off the Giants and Patriots rosters.

wicked_wayz
02-13-2008, 02:04 AM
I wouldn't mind a guy like Mendenhall or Stewart, a thick legged RB, but I don't think RB is a pressing enough need to take one in the first round.


thats exactly who i want:doot::fans: :wild:

infantrycak
02-13-2008, 06:45 AM
I think the point is that this particular zone blocking team didn't need a 1st round pick on the offensive line. But, the '98 Broncos o-line was bought more than developed. Tony Jones was picked up in a trade with the Ravens for a 2nd round pick. Schlereth and Swayne were Super Bowls starters prior to signing with Denver as vet free agents. To duplicate how Denver put their line together, the Texans would have to trade a 1st day pick for a LT, and sign a couple of offensive linemen off the Giants and Patriots rosters.

As usual, folks are far to ready to make gross over generalizations. In this thread we have two classic ones from Gibbs hates OL before the 2nd and you can't make a SB run without a top 2 rounds LT. Truth is of course in between.

If LT is arguably BPA in the 1st, great take one. If not go for the top BPA at a need position IMO.

HOU-TEX
02-13-2008, 08:45 AM
As usual, folks are far to ready to make gross over generalizations. In this thread we have two classic ones from Gibbs hates OL before the 2nd and you can't make a SB run without a top 2 rounds LT. Truth is of course in between.

If LT is arguably BPA in the 1st, great take one. If not go for the top BPA at a need position IMO.

I agree. We (the MB) can sit here and cuss and discuss who we should take and when, but as someone stated earlier in the thread, the Texans still have too mant holes to fill. To me this will be another year it'd be difficult to get upset at who's picked. Unless of course we have a casserly and choose a holder or something of the sort. The past couple seasons Kubiak & SmithGM have been here, I feel confident enough to just sit back and watch the pros work.

:fans:

Dallas_Texan
02-13-2008, 09:27 AM
If we had a decent O-LINE it would help the running game & the passing game. It would also keep a defense lacking in talent off the field. I believe this is a deep RB class & we can find a very productive rb in rds. 3 thru 5

Why is everyone still trying to make predictions on the draft? Until FA is over, you may as well be guessing on the 2012 Draft. If we sign a LT, or CB, or RB then everyone's theories are shot. Be patient and have faith in the FO. There will be at LEAST one surprise this offseason, I'm confident in that. Then we can have fun speculating on what needs we'll need to fill. You never know...we may get a RB, AND a CB in FA, and then it's fairly obvious we go for BPA in the 1st as far as LT or OLB.

Goldensilence
02-13-2008, 10:56 AM
Boy, its sure ironic how posters blamed the OL for sacks during Carr's time here but now do the polar opposite and blame all the sacks on Schaub.

Which is it? I just think its sad that one guy gets 5 years of failed promise and parades of excuses while the other guy gets blamed for shortcomings even in his first year as a starter.

Some people just think that once you draft an OT in teh 1st Round, that your line just magically transforms into pro bowl caliber. It's not that simple. It takes drafting guys in the later rounds like Pitts, Winston, Spencer, and Weary and making those guys into something. I don't think Gibbs is lobbying for the 1st Round pick to be used on OT. Go look at the OL around the league. It's painfully obvious you don't have to be some 5 star 1st Round pick to succeed and help your team compete. You just need good coaching and a good scheme....which I believe we have in Gibbs in regards to OL.

Yeah like Joe Thomas did last year for Cleveland? Half a sack his rookie year. Suddenly Jamal Lewis looks like old Jamal Lewis and you've got a QB controversy between what to do with Quinn after Anderson had a great year.Not saying he necessarily did it single-handed but I'm more then sure having that left side shut down helped IMMENSELY. Keep in mind that's the same division as Baltimore's D and Pitt's too. 4 times a year. Half a sack.

It's been posted before SH. Of the playoffs teams this year most went 1st and 2nd round. Do you have to go there to compete? nope. But it's no coincidence those teams are in the playoffs.

Ole Miss. Totally agree Man AP would've looked great in a Texan's Uni. Trading down is one thing but IMO to move up you got to be in several situations.

1. Need Franchise QB - Most important position and most often hard to find.
2. Targeting a player who won't cost you more then it's worth to move a spot or two to secure.
3. Multiple playoff berths and target one guy you feel will get you over the hump and into the SB. So it's worth any ammo to move up.

We already did part one. We got our guy at QB. Otherwise this franchise hasn't made the playoffs and long term it's possible the AP pick would've hurt more then helped.

badboy
02-13-2008, 10:57 AM
Why is everyone still trying to make predictions on the draft? Until FA is over, you may as well be guessing on the 2012 Draft. If we sign a LT, or CB, or RB then everyone's theories are shot. Be patient and have faith in the FO. There will be at LEAST one surprise this offseason, I'm confident in that. Then we can have fun speculating on what needs we'll need to fill. You never know...we may get a RB, AND a CB in FA, and then it's fairly obvious we go for BPA in the 1st as far as LT or OLB.Here is why:
IMO there is no LT in FA that we can sign to be our starter over Salaam.
There is no significant upgrade at RB that will come in as our starter that will be a reasonable purchase.

There are two very good to excellent CBs now that Asomugha has been franchised; Asante Samuel who will probably ask for $60-80 million AKA Nate Clements deal; and then Trufant who will be more affordable and a good target. Then some good CBs left. I would target Trufant but so will others and we may have to go CB in draft. Having said this;

1. At #18 no LT is projected to be available. Maybe Baker but maybe not. I do not think any tackle we select at #18 will beat out Salaam initially and will be the back up. If that is true why spend a high pick when a lower round LT can back up and get the attention of Gibbs and line coach? I would rather a third round LT sit and work his way in than a #18 LT sit and work in.

2. RB is needed and two possible franchise type backs may be @ #18, Mendenhall and Stewart (my choice). Some say lower rou8nd can bring a starter but a franchise type back?

3. Cb if not bought in FA imo instantaneously becomes the #1 pick. Fortunately, we should be able to land a very good CB in first round. Folks, regardless of our preferences, we should sign two, maybe three starters in draft and maybe one in FA. That is a pump!.

Polo
02-13-2008, 10:59 AM
Yeah like Joe Thomas did last year for Cleveland? Half a sack his rookie year. Suddenly Jamal Lewis looks like old Jamal Lewis and you've got a QB controversy between what to do with Quinn after Anderson had a great year.Not saying he necessarily did it single-handed but I'm more then sure having that left side shut down helped IMMENSELY. Keep in mind that's the same division as Baltimore's D and Pitt's too. 4 times a year. Half a sack.

That's one side of the spectrum.

On the other side though, you can look a D'Brick who went around the same spot one year earlier...

It's the tale of two tackles...

Polo
02-13-2008, 11:02 AM
It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...

badboy
02-13-2008, 01:58 PM
It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...It is good to know that we can sign a LT, RB and CB in rounds 1,3 and 4 that could be starters this next season. That is without a trade down or free agency.

El Tejano
02-13-2008, 02:30 PM
Well sometimes I go back to look at the line that our old Oilers used to have. I could swear they were all 1st and 2nd round players. I know that Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak were 1st rounders, and I'm pretty sure that Steinkhuler was at least a 2nd. I know many of them were high picks though.

That success became 7 straight years of playoffs and from what I can remember, Warren Moon had a very good career.

Texans Horror
02-13-2008, 02:40 PM
There are few positions on the team that if the Texans went first round, I'd be ticked. QB, TE, WR, G - I'd be scratching my head if the Texans went first round with one of those. But LT? CB? S? RB? DE? DT? LB? I think an arguement could be made for any of those.

Part of me thinks that the Texans might be willing to give their RBs one more season. That they might go as high as third round to pull in a running back, but that it isn't the number one priority.

The same goes for tackle. Is it needed? Absolutely. Is it needed today? The Texans will look at Salaam's productivity and lack of injuries and say they can operate one more season. Take a risk on Spencer and Frye and see what happens.

Defensive Secondary, though? Totally different. Reducing that turn-over ratio is the number one priority. I think the Texans believe that with a year under his belt, Schaub will work out his interception-itis. So the other way to fix this is to cement the defensive backs. That's why I think it's best CB available with the first pick.

HJam72
02-13-2008, 02:59 PM
I think it's just BPA, as long as it's not a position on your list there (QB, TE, WR, G).

I'm assuming that we're assuming Ryans can move to the outside, and that's why MLB isn't a non-potential pick as well.

Lucky
02-13-2008, 03:17 PM
Well sometimes I go back to look at the line that our old Oilers used to have. I could swear they were all 1st and 2nd round players. I know that Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak were 1st rounders, and I'm pretty sure that Steinkhuler was at least a 2nd. I know many of them were high picks though.
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.

Second Honeymoon
02-13-2008, 03:32 PM
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.

In 6 years the Texans have drafted 5 Offensive Lineman on the first day. The exact same ratio as Holovak's numbers with the Texans. The Texans have yet to spend a 1st Round pick on an OL but they have spent valuable picks on guys and last year 3 were starters while one was on IR. Not that bad. We just havent hit any home runs at OL in the later rounds. We can all thank Casserley for that.


On top of that we have spent 6 picks on the DL during our 6 first draft days. I call that building from the inside out, but Holovak was far superior to Casserley and that hurt us. Charles Hill anyone?

Lucky
02-13-2008, 03:40 PM
In 6 years the Texans have drafted 5 Offensive Lineman on the first day. The exact same ratio as Holovak's numbers...
Right. And the Texans have been snake bit with the Spencer injury. What I'm really addressing is the current notion that the offensive line can be addressed exclusively in the later rounds and coached up. That hasn't been proven, yet many believe it to be true.

Second Honeymoon
02-13-2008, 04:22 PM
Right. And the Texans have been snake bit with the Spencer injury. What I'm really addressing is the current notion that the offensive line can be addressed exclusively in the later rounds and coached up. That hasn't been proven, yet many believe it to be true.

Agreed. You gotta take shots early on and sometimes even in the 1st Round to be successful. You can't exclusively use 2nd day picks to build a line, but I don't think the Texans are guilty of that even though they havent spent a 1st Rounder yet. Due to lots of bad trades, we have given up too many picks and just havent made the most of the draft picks we have used on OL. That looks to be turning around under Smith.

Texan_Bill
02-13-2008, 05:51 PM
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.

That list pretty much brings a tear to my eye.. The only name that I don't recall doing anything is Mike Kelley.

Two HOF'ers. One who's career should have wound up in the HOF but injuries got the better of him. Hopkins was great. Maggs, Williams, Flannery and Donnalley had good careers (not world beaters - but good).

Also, just a couple of years after Hopkins was drafted, the Oilers also picked up John Runyan who stuck around the league for 12 or 13 years. Although he was a later round pick.

Bull Pen 1
02-13-2008, 06:18 PM
With Mike Holovak pretty much running the draft from 1981-1993, the Oilers selected 10 offensive linemen on the 1st day:

Mike Munchak - G - 1st round (#8 overall) - 1982
Bruce Matthews - G - 1st round (#9 overall) - 1983
Harvey Salem - T - 2nd round (#30 overall) - 1983
Dean Steinkuhler - T - 1st round (#2 overall) - 1984
Don Maggs - T - 2nd round (#29 overall) - 1984 (USFL supplemental)
Mike Kelley - C - 3rd Round (#82 overall) - 1985
David Williams - T - 1st round (#23 overall) - 1989
John Flannery - C - 2nd Round (#44 overall) - 1991
Kevin Donnalley - G - 3rd round (#79 overall) - 1991
Brad Hopkins - T - 1st round (#13 overall) - 1993

Holovak believed in building a team from the inside out. He didn't miss on many, either.


How many Super Bowls did those Oilers teams win?

pappy
02-13-2008, 06:34 PM
How many Super Bowls did those Oilers teams win?

better yet , how many have we won ?

Texans Horror
02-13-2008, 08:09 PM
There is a definite difference between those Oilers picks and the Texans picks. Most of the Oilers picks I saw were first and second rounders. The Texans are all second and third-rounders. I have no qualm with picking linemen up later. But IMO, it's worth the gamble to put first-round stock in your left tackle. It's the cornerstone of the whole line. And that's where the Texans and I differ. Obviously, they don't think that cornerstone needs to be set with a first-rounder, or they think they can push it off yet another year.

infantrycak
02-13-2008, 09:08 PM
Obviously, they don't think that cornerstone needs to be set with a first-rounder, or they think they can push it off yet another year.

Is it really that obvious? Other than Travis Johnson, who would you give back and for whom? Carr may not have worked out but neither have Williams and McKinnie. Want to turn back AJ or Dunta, Mario or Okoye? It is easy to say spend a 1st in a vacuum but you are always giving up another possible selection. I'll cheer for a LT who is BPA in the 1st, but not for forcing one and passing up better talent.

threetoedpete
02-14-2008, 04:30 PM
It's ridiculous to think that you have to take a certain position in a certain round to have a certain amount of success...

Great LT's don't win games by themselves anymore than great RB's or CB's do...


well that is preciecly the point...the histroy suggests that for every day two guy or TE guy who makes the jump to a starter quality OLT or LG there are litterally hundreds who don't. And for every round you let them slip by, there is a bust factor by a FACTOR of ten added on to the guy. Look it up. You take a guy late you except the risk that the guy in all probality will not make it out of camp. If he makes the PS you did prety good.

But what we found out in the super bowl....they can darn sure lose a few for you. It wasn't the Patties Cb nor the RB...the left tackle and the left gaurd couldn't block the speed of the Giants DL. The olt is not going to fall into their laps. They gotta go get him. And that means one of these drafts they are going to have to do something that's going to sting....take a canidate early. Other wise they are doing to MS the very same damn thing they did to HWSNBN. And what I'm posting...it's just a matter of time before Salaam gets hurt. That's when the team will pay the price for being short sighted....for the second time. Enjoy it.

Maddict5
02-14-2008, 04:40 PM
does rashad butler have any potential at LT- i thought he might have a shot now that his illness was being treated.. judging by kubiaks comments, im thinking not

infantrycak
02-14-2008, 05:03 PM
But what we found out in the super bowl....they can darn sure lose a few for you. It wasn't the Patties Cb nor the RB...the left tackle and the left gaurd couldn't block the speed of the Giants DL.

You keep picking horrible examples to make your point. Matt Light is wearing 3 SB rings he won as a starter and came pretty darn close to getting a 4th.

Seriously how far do you take your point?--if 6 OT's go off the board before #18, but the #1 CB and #2 RB both of whom grade out far higher are still there, do you really insist on picking the 7th OT?

steelbtexan
02-14-2008, 05:13 PM
well that is preciecly the point...the histroy suggests that for every day two guy or TE guy who makes the jump to a starter quality OLT or LG there are litterally hundreds who don't. And for every round you let them slip by, there is a bust factor by a FACTOR of ten added on to the guy. Look it up. You take a guy late you except the risk that the guy in all probality will not make it out of camp. If he makes the PS you did prety good.

But what we found out in the super bowl....they can darn sure lose a few for you. It wasn't the Patties Cb nor the RB...the left tackle and the left gaurd couldn't block the speed of the Giants DL. The olt is not going to fall into their laps. They gotta go get him. And that means one of these drafts they are going to have to do something that's going to sting....take a canidate early. Other wise they are doing to MS the very same damn thing they did to HWSNBN. And what I'm posting...it's just a matter of time before Salaam gets hurt. That's when the team will pay the price for being short sighted....for the second time. Enjoy it.

I'm in total agreement with this. I am really hoping that we draft BPA in the 1st rd. , then trade back into the 2nd rd. & pick Nicks or Collins.

infantrycak
02-14-2008, 05:20 PM
I'm in total agreement with this. I am really hoping that we draft BPA in the 1st rd. , then trade back into the 2nd rd. & pick Nicks or Collins.

Dude--threetoed is saying exactly the opposite of BPA. He advocates LT or bust.

ArlingtonTexan
02-14-2008, 09:21 PM
You keep picking horrible examples to make your point. Matt Light is wearing 3 SB rings he won as a starter and came pretty darn close to getting a 4th.

Seriously how far do you take your point?--if 6 OT's go off the board before #18, but the #1 CB and #2 RB both of whom grade out far higher are still there, do you really insist on picking the 7th OT?

In fact, the more "important" the position, the more important you don't just draft the highest rated one on the board be damned. You will be stuck with a player who you and your fans are expecting 1st round production out of with 3rd round talent and paying too much for it terms of money and time. This is the David Carr lesson.

beerlover
02-14-2008, 10:00 PM
Rick Smith & his scouts probably have a long, long extended list that stretches into prospects projected to be undrafted free agents. I'd guess for sure we get us at least one of those :)

If a consensus high profile player falls in the 1st to the Texans who does not play a position of need (very few) Rick receives an attractive trade down proposal the likelyhood is enhanced with extra picks LT could be addressed with a top notch LT prospect, otherwise stand pat take Mendenhall or top CB.

Texans Horror
02-15-2008, 12:22 AM
Is it really that obvious? Other than Travis Johnson, who would you give back and for whom? Carr may not have worked out but neither have Williams and McKinnie. Want to turn back AJ or Dunta, Mario or Okoye? It is easy to say spend a 1st in a vacuum but you are always giving up another possible selection. I'll cheer for a LT who is BPA in the 1st, but not for forcing one and passing up better talent.

Yes, I think it is that obvious, but that's just my opinion. The Texans keep bringing in journeymen left tackles, third-round-or-later left tackle prospects, and stick with Salaam even when he was looking pretty beaten/bandaged out on the field. They have done this year-in, year-out, so I think there is a pattern here. Based on this pattern, I'm not expecting the Texans to draft a left tackle in the first round or to free-agent one of the top left tackles in the league.

bigbrewster2000
02-15-2008, 08:49 AM
Yes, I think it is that obvious, but that's just my opinion. The Texans keep bringing in journeymen left tackles, third-round-or-later left tackle prospects, and stick with Salaam even when he was looking pretty beaten/bandaged out on the field. They have done this year-in, year-out, so I think there is a pattern here. Based on this pattern, I'm not expecting the Texans to draft a left tackle in the first round or to free-agent one of the top left tackles in the league.

I think you need to rephrase the way that you are putting this, because as it stands right now there is no top talent FA Left tackle. There are LT's in FA but none of them are top talent.

And I am not fighting someone elses battles here I am just curious to hear the answer to the question that was presented to you, Other than Travis Johnson what 1st rounder would you have given back for a LT? Better yet, Which of our last 2 1st rounders would you have given back? Mario? I say now way, simply because at this point you would be getting inferior talent in return. Ferguson hasnt hit his stride yet and hasnt played any better than the tackles that we have fielded.

Amobi? Definantly no way because we would have really had to reach for a LT at our position since the top 2 guys were off the board.

And I am an advocate of a LT in the draft IF that is the BPA at the 3 major needs positions we have. There is no reason to reach when you can get better value somewhere else in the Draft.

awtysst
02-15-2008, 09:09 AM
Is it really that obvious? Other than Travis Johnson, who would you give back and for whom? Carr may not have worked out but neither have Williams and McKinnie. Want to turn back AJ or Dunta, Mario or Okoye? It is easy to say spend a 1st in a vacuum but you are always giving up another possible selection. I'll cheer for a LT who is BPA in the 1st, but not for forcing one and passing up better talent.

Yeah its Travis Johnson. We had our Choice of Jamal Brown or Alex Brown. Both would have been better choices than TJ.

DBCooper
02-15-2008, 09:16 AM
Best Player Available.

Lucky
02-15-2008, 09:37 AM
Yeah its Travis Johnson. We had our Choice of Jamal Brown or Alex Brown. Both would have been better choices than TJ.
If you remember, Casserly thought that Brown was strictly a RT, and the Texans had that position covered with Todd Wade (:gun:). I seem to remember that a lot of Texan fans felt the same way at the time. The rumor on Alex Barron was that he stood the Texans up at a dinner meeting at the combine. I guess that left a bad taste in their collective mouth.

Vinny
02-15-2008, 09:44 AM
In fact, the more "important" the position, the more important you don't just draft the highest rated one on the board be damned. You will be stuck with a player who you and your fans are expecting 1st round production out of with 3rd round talent and paying too much for it terms of money and time. This is the David Carr lesson.brilliant commentary as usual. :heart:

The Pencil Neck
02-15-2008, 11:14 AM
Yes, I think it is that obvious, but that's just my opinion. The Texans keep bringing in journeymen left tackles, third-round-or-later left tackle prospects, and stick with Salaam even when he was looking pretty beaten/bandaged out on the field. They have done this year-in, year-out, so I think there is a pattern here. Based on this pattern, I'm not expecting the Texans to draft a left tackle in the first round or to free-agent one of the top left tackles in the league.

"Year-in, year-out" implies more than a couple of years.

Under Kubiak, they drafted 2 tackles in the 3rd round and brought Salaam in to be a backup swing tackle. The rookie LT got injured in the second game of his career and Salaam had to be pressed into service.

Then the next year, they brought in a free agent (Black) who didn't pan out, were expecting the LT from the previous year to possibly make it back, drafted a possible tackle (Frye), and nabbed what could be a future starter (Butler.) But in the end had to use Salaam again.

That's 2 years. Not much time for a pattern.

From what Kubiak has said, I expect Salaam to be starting the season next year unless a young tackle steps up and impresses them. I expect them to draft an LT somewhere in the first 3-4 rounds this year and then groom him and try to get him ready but not press him into service too quickly. If a good prospect presents itself, I totally expect Smithiak to make a move to improve the situation. But I don't expect them to get desperate and do silly things.

Polo
02-15-2008, 11:22 AM
I don't see what the rush is to get Salaam out of the line-up...

He's not great, but the guy is alright...

Easily the best LT we've ever had...That's not saying a lot but iiwii....

I don't think he's the biggest problem on our offense by a longshot....

Try turnovers, RB's and center for 5,000.....

Bull Pen 1
02-15-2008, 12:15 PM
better yet , how many have we won ?

Yes, in the 6 years we were a expansion team, you cannot get all 1st rounders as starters in your 1st year. The Oilers were an established team and with all those 1st and 2nd rounders on the line didn't win a Super Bowl. As a matter a fact the Oilers didn't even go tho the Super Bowl until they were the Titans.
So what I'm trying to say is just because you have all 1st and 2nd rounders on the o-line doesn't mean you're going to the Super Bowl. Also back then players were more commited to one team, because for the most part played on the same team their whole carrier.

If you think about it with the new GM and head coach our draft pickes haven't been too bad, actually mose of the draft picks are still on the team. As I see it we have a better starting team and better backups than we had before the new regeine.

awtysst
02-15-2008, 12:33 PM
If you remember, Casserly thought that Brown was strictly a RT, and the Texans had that position covered with Todd Wade (:gun:). I seem to remember that a lot of Texan fans felt the same way at the time. The rumor on Alex Barron was that he stood the Texans up at a dinner meeting at the combine. I guess that left a bad taste in their collective mouth.

Yeah, but thats the thing. Casserly sucks at evaluating talent. His job is to be able to evaluate talent based on his position in the draft and choose them. In addition he had to evaluate talent around the league and bring in FA that would be good for the team. Yes, I recall that Texans fans here on the board felt the same way, but we are not paid to scout and evaluate full time. We do this in our spare time.

Also, I never heard that Alex Barron did that. Point is that either of them would look great on the LT side for the Texans right about now and instead we have TJ who has been an absolute bust in my mind.

ChampionTexan
02-15-2008, 01:26 PM
Also, I never heard that Alex Barron did that. Point is that either of them would look great on the LT side for the Texans right about now and instead we have TJ who has been an absolute bust in my mind.

Based on what Alex Barron has done, would he really be any better at LT than Salaam? I know he's younger, but I think we'd be a long way from considering the LT position nailed down. Plus, this is the 2nd most penalized player in the NFL over the last four years (even though he's only played for three of them).

awtysst
02-15-2008, 01:33 PM
Based on what Alex Barron has done, would he really be any better at LT than Salaam? I know he's younger, but I think we'd be a long way from considering the LT position nailed down. Plus, this is the 2nd most penalized player in the NFL over the last four years (even though he's only played for three of them).

Yes, I really believe Alex Barron would be a better LT than Salaam. As you said he is younger but he also has good size for the ZBS. Also, he
has mostly been playing out of position the last few years at RT since Orlando Pace was at the LT spot. Only in the last year or so did he get the opportunity to switch over to his more natural LT spot. I alos think he needs to be coached up to avoid those dumb penalties. I do not believe the Rams O line has had very good coaching and have basically been fortunate to have someone with the talent of an Orlando Pace. Give Barron some coaching and some time and I think he becomes a quality starting NFL LT.

Thorn
02-15-2008, 05:45 PM
If was in charge of a football team, and I'm not, and I also don't know near as much, technically, about pro football as most of yall do, but if it was up to me, I'd be drafting a lineman (either side) with my first pick every year.

Maddict5
02-15-2008, 06:11 PM
Yeah its Travis Johnson. We had our Choice of Jamal Brown or Alex Brown. Both would have been better choices than TJ.



Also, I never heard that Alex Barron did that. Point is that either of them would look great on the LT side for the Texans right about now and instead we have TJ who has been an absolute bust in my mind.

first of all.. travis isnt an 'absolute bust'. he hasnt performed aswell as expected but seems to be getting better and looks to have a good attitude..

secondly, barron is nothing special at all and jammal had a bad year after last yrs good yr

and finally and most importantly that ye have oversighted:

is Barron/Brown > TJ + Winston??

i say definitely not

threetoedpete
02-20-2008, 03:11 PM
And I am an advocate of a LT in the draft IF that is the BPA at the 3 major needs positions we have. There is no reason to reach when you can get better value somewhere else in the Draft.

It's not a reach if you've never had one and your running game...struggles.

And that is the point...either you believe that one of these years... and I mean after six how many more do you need.....one is going to fall into your lap, or one is not. They aren't going to fall into your laps by accident. They don't grow on trees and so far noone has been good enough at our slot, or to spend the draft capitol on to move up and go get. . All We do is watch other teams pluck them off the board early.

The Texans will never be in the correct position unless they're going into the tank with a 5-11 or something. Hasn't happened yet. My question to the nay sayers is how long are you guys projecting Salaam as the starter. One more seson...two.... into his forties ? I mean if you want to tramp with late round projects...O.K. Draft Cotam and put 30 pounds on him. Draft King Dunlap and motivate him. But by god have something more in the bank than wishfull thinking and hoping everthing will turn out alright in the end. From what I'm seeing from our members is no one here seems to think it's worth even a token late day two pick. and that's just mind boggeling to me.

No one has answered my original question yet from last year...who protects MS' blind side if Salaam goes down ?

The answer is: that guy is not on the roster yet.

badboy
02-20-2008, 03:17 PM
It's not a reach if you've never had one and your running game...struggles.

And that is the point...either you believe that one of these years... and I mean after six how many more do you need.....they aren't going to fall into your laps by accident. The Texans will never be in the correct position unless they'e going into the tank with a 5-11 or soemthing. Hasn't happened yet. My question to the nay sayers is how long are you guys projecting Salaam as the starter. One more seson...two.... into his forties ? I mean if you want to trap with late round projects...O.K. Draft Cotam and put 30 pounds on him. Draft King Dunlap and motivate him. But by god have something more in the bank than wishfull thinking and hoping everthing will turn out alright in the end. No one has answered my origanal question yet from last year...who protects MS' blind side if Salaam goes down ?

The answer is: the guy is not on the roster yet.You are correct and Kubes has said that LT is a concern. I think a LT will be drafted to replace Salaam. When he takes over will be up to that players efforts. If Salaam could get some time off each game he might last two years. Black is signed only through 2008and will not be a surprise if he is let go at some point.

Ole Miss Texan
02-20-2008, 03:24 PM
So there's no doubt in my mind that we draft OL somewhere in the draft. Be it LT, G, or Both. I think we come away with 2 players.

How many player do you think we'll keep on the OL? How many did we keep on the 53 man roster last year? I don't remember but trying to make cuts down to the 53 is very difficult.

Currently we have 16 players on the OL (after 2 were released this week):

4 Centers: Steve McKinney, Greg Eslinger, Chris White, Chukky Okobi, Mike Flanagan (released), Drew Hodgdon (released)

6 Guards: Chester Pitts, Fred Weary, Kasey Studdard, Mike Brisiel, Dan Stevenson, Scott Jackson

6 Tackles: Ephraim Salaam, Eric Winston, Charles Spencer, Rashad Butler, Brandon Frye, Jordan Black.

I suspect we're going to at least be bringing in some more Gibbs' type players through FA, Draft, and UDFA- to at the minimum be competition. I really think we'll be getting 1-2 guys in the draft so that puts us at 18 players for arguements sake.

Maybe we can discuss who doesn't really fit what Gibbs wants, make a few cuts ourselves...

The way I see it, Salaam is not our long term answer but good enough for next year. There's gotta be someone ready to step in and/or someone grooming to take over the job. Winston is RT, Spencer-I'm not counting on him (Cut or moved to Guard imo), Black- Don't know if he has a place on the roster. That leaves Brandon Frye that I could see gives working with, but he's Raw and needs a lot of time, I wouldn't trust him with Schaub's blindside this year at least. And lastly, Rashad Butler whom I know little about.

To me, Frye is the only guy on the roster that would really have me believing he would be our future LT (through grooming, learning, etc- not any time soon). This leaves me feeling very very uneasy about the pradicament we're in, so I would look for a LT in the draft early.

threetoedpete
02-20-2008, 04:11 PM
Yes, in the 6 years we were a expansion team, you cannot get all 1st rounders as starters in your 1st year. The Oilers were an established team and with all those 1st and 2nd rounders on the line didn't win a Super Bowl. As a matter a fact the Oilers didn't even go tho the Super Bowl until they were the Titans.
So what I'm trying to say is just because you have all 1st and 2nd rounders on the o-line doesn't mean you're going to the Super Bowl. Also back then players were more commited to one team, because for the most part played on the same team their whole carrier.

If you think about it with the new GM and head coach our draft pickes haven't been too bad, actually mose of the draft picks are still on the team. As I see it we have a better starting team and better backups than we had before the new regeine.

Ya know it's funny you mentioned the Oilers....now are you saying that after couple of 1-13's...the result of late day two patches and very bad free agent signings btw, ( Hey the The texans do that !!!) that their lot wasn't much improved after the Munch and Mathews picks ? I wanna see you post that huag wash there einstien. And how many paly off apareances and winning seasons did they have after they finally bit the bullet and lit up couple of HOFers through high draft picks ? And how many play off seasons do the Texans currently have under their belts ? Don't tell me about the Oilers there grass hopper. I wasn't a band wagon cowboys fan...I lived the Oilers.

Just a knee jerk: One way works and one way doesn't. You figgure it out.

badboy
02-20-2008, 04:16 PM
So there's no doubt in my mind that we draft OL somewhere in the draft. Be it LT, G, or Both. I think we come away with 2 players.

How many player do you think we'll keep on the OL? How many did we keep on the 53 man roster last year? I don't remember but trying to make cuts down to the 53 is very difficult.

Currently we have 16 players on the OL (after 2 were released this week):

4 Centers: Steve McKinney, Greg Eslinger, Chris White, Chukky Okobi, Mike Flanagan (released), Drew Hodgdon (released)

6 Guards: Chester Pitts, Fred Weary, Kasey Studdard, Mike Brisiel, Dan Stevenson, Scott Jackson

6 Tackles: Ephraim Salaam, Eric Winston, Charles Spencer, Rashad Butler, Brandon Frye, Jordan Black.

I suspect we're going to at least be bringing in some more Gibbs' type players through FA, Draft, and UDFA- to at the minimum be competition. I really think we'll be getting 1-2 guys in the draft so that puts us at 18 players for arguements sake.

Maybe we can discuss who doesn't really fit what Gibbs wants, make a few cuts ourselves...

The way I see it, Salaam is not our long term answer but good enough for next year. There's gotta be someone ready to step in and/or someone grooming to take over the job. Winston is RT, Spencer-I'm not counting on him (Cut or moved to Guard imo), Black- Don't know if he has a place on the roster. That leaves Brandon Frye that I could see gives working with, but he's Raw and needs a lot of time, I wouldn't trust him with Schaub's blindside this year at least. And lastly, Rashad Butler whom I know little about.

To me, Frye is the only guy on the roster that would really have me believing he would be our future LT (through grooming, learning, etc- not any time soon). This leaves me feeling very very uneasy about the pradicament we're in, so I would look for a LT in the draft early.I see maybe three centers. Maybe Weary will not be back. And if Black is gone I'm ok wid dat.

infantrycak
02-20-2008, 07:16 PM
Ya know it's funny you mentioned the Oilers....now are you saying that after couple of 1-13's...the result of late day two patches and very bad free agent signings btw, ( Hey the The texans do that !!!) that their lot wasn't much improved after the Munch and Mathews picks ? I wanna see you post that huag wash there einstien. And how many paly off apareances and winning seasons did they have after they finally bit the bullet and lit up couple of HOFers through high draft picks ? And how many play off seasons do the Texans currently have under their belts ? Don't tell me about the Oilers there grass hopper. I wasn't a band wagon cowboys fan...I lived the Oilers.

Just a knee jerk: One way works and one way doesn't. You figgure it out.

No it isn't one way works and one way doesn't, but OK since you only see black and white--remind us again how many super bowls the Oilers won with their high draft picks on the OL and how many the Cowboys did in the '90's and how many 1st rounders were on their OL?

TK_Gamer
02-20-2008, 07:34 PM
No it isn't one way works and one way doesn't, but OK since you only see black and white--remind us again how many super bowls the Oilers won with their high draft picks on the OL and how many the Cowboys did in the '90's and how many 1st rounders were on their OL?

Personally I don't care if we find the answer in the first round or the seventh, I just know we need an every down LT that can run block and pass protect, period. for that matter we could use some help at guard also, we have alot of guys that can do the job but dont excel at anything. Pitts and weary have stuck around long enough to be capable but now they are having injury issues. I think building a solid O-line is a continuous effort, not just for us but virtually every team in the league. Everyone WANTS that probowl line, but it just dont come easy.I do think though that you have to work diligently at it and not settle for mediocrity.

infantrycak
02-20-2008, 07:44 PM
Personally I don't care if we find the answer in the first round or the seventh, I just know we need an every down LT that can run block and pass protect, period.

True--I just don't think it is reasonable to set mandates (changing ones at that) for when that help has to come.

Pitts and weary have stuck around long enough to be capable but now they are having injury issues.

I think Weary is gone--UFA, injured, not a prototypical Gibbs guy and looking for a bigger contract. Injury issues for Pitts?--dude has missed what, 2 snaps in the history of the Texans?

I think building a solid O-line is a continuous effort, not just for us but virtually every team in the league.

True--and if you keep on getting value guys as they come available like Spencer and Winston you build the luxury of not forcing needs into higher rounds.

ObsiWan
02-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Amen to all of the above!

Goldensilence
02-20-2008, 09:49 PM
Larry Allen - 2nd rd. Sonoma State
Nate Newton - Un-drafted and played in USFL. Florida State.
Mark Stepnoski - 3rd round Pittsburgh
Mark Tuinei - Un-drafted Hawaii
Erik Williams - 3rd Round - Central State
Kevin Grogan - 8th round Washington
John Gesek - 10th round Sacramento State
Derek Kennard - 2nd Round - Nevada

steelbtexan
02-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Jimmy Johnson was a great talent evaluator.

threetoedpete
02-21-2008, 01:23 AM
No it isn't one way works and one way doesn't, but OK since you only see black and white--remind us again how many super bowls the Oilers won with their high draft picks on the OL and how many the Cowboys did in the '90's and how many 1st rounders were on their OL?

The same number the Texans have..I think a lot of folks would be happy if the could acheive a split with this group next year with in the division. There's no long term plan in place they are just throwing drats up and hoping everything works out O.K. in the end. I also noticed one year the cowboys went back to back on o-lineman in the second and third rounds...

Value, would that be like starting over on franchise QBs every five years ? I mean you say it can be done...We're waiting.

1586. 417 attemps for a 3.8 averge.

Year six and counting. I mean we're getting to the point where A.J. has only so many snaps left in the bank....by the time we find your hidden gems, we'll be starting over again with the skill positions...It's just to rich. There is a pool of day one tallent this year in the draft. But the supply of them is limited. They could get lucky. Every round of the draft that slips by and they don't adress the issue of the offensive line is one more nail in the coffin of Matt Schub tenure with the Texans. Tllent matters. Day two guys are day two guys for a reason.

threetoedpete
02-21-2008, 01:24 AM
....