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Ole Miss Texan
01-31-2008, 02:44 PM
Thought this would be interesting to look at the playoff teams and see when their LT was selected. Don't know if this really needs a new thread but 'to all his own'

New England Patriots: Matt Light, 48th pick (2nd Round)- 7th Season
New York Giants: David Diehl (Guard), 160th pick (5th Round)- 5th Season
San Diego Chargers: Marcus McNeill, 50th pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Green Bay Packers: Chad Clifton, 44th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season
Indianapolis Colts: Tony Ugoh, 42nd pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Dallas Cowboys: Flozell Adams (Guard), 38th pick (2nd Round)- 10th Season
Jacksonville Jaguars: Khalif Barnes, 52nd pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Tennessee Titans: Michael Roos, 41st pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Washington Redskins: Chris Samuels, 3rd pick (1st Round)- 8th Season
Seattle Seahawks: Walter Jones, 6th pick (1st Round)- 11th Season
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Donald Penn, Undrafted by the Vikings- 2nd Season
Pittsburgh Steelers: Max Starks, 75th pick (3rd Round)- 4th Season
.........................>Marvel Smith, 38th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season

Ephraim Salaam, 199th pick (7th Round) by Atlanta- 7th Season
Charles Spencer, 33rd pick (3rd Round)- 2nd Season- IR

badboy
01-31-2008, 03:33 PM
Thought this would be interesting to look at the playoff teams and see when their LT was selected. Don't know if this really needs a new thread but 'to all his own'

New England Patriots: Matt Light, 48th pick (2nd Round)- 7th Season
New York Giants: David Diehl (Guard), 160th pick (5th Round)- 5th Season
San Diego Chargers: Marcus McNeill, 50th pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Green Bay Packers: Chad Clifton, 44th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season
Indianapolis Colts: Tony Ugoh, 42nd pick (2nd Round)- 2nd Season
Dallas Cowboys: Flozell Adams (Guard), 38th pick (2nd Round)- 10th Season
Jacksonville Jaguars: Khalif Barnes, 52nd pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Tennessee Titans: Michael Roos, 41st pick (2nd Round)- 3rd Season
Washington Redskins: Chris Samuels, 3rd pick (1st Round)- 8th Season
Seattle Seahawks: Walter Jones, 6th pick (1st Round)- 11th Season
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Donald Penn, Undrafted by the Vikings- 2nd Season
Pittsburgh Steelers: Max Starks, 75th pick (3rd Round)- 4th Season
.........................>Marvel Smith, 38th pick (2nd Round)- 8th Season

Ephraim Salaam, 199th pick (7th Round) by Atlanta- 7th Season
Charles Spencer, 33rd pick (3rd Round)- 2nd Season- IRAn interesting statistic to me would be when did each become a starter and with what team?

Lucky
01-31-2008, 04:01 PM
An interesting statistic to me would be when did each become a starter and with what team?
Off the top of my head, these guys started as rookie LTs with their current teams.

Light (on a Super Bowl team)
McNeil
Clifton
Ugoh
Samuels
Jones
Barnes

Roos started at RT in his rookie season before moving to LT. I think Adams started as a guard, then moved to LT his 2nd year.

ItsAMarioParty
01-31-2008, 10:42 PM
almost all 2nd round...

not sure exactly what to take away from that but it is an interesting stat/fact

Goldensilence
01-31-2008, 11:36 PM
almost all 2nd round...

not sure exactly what to take away from that but it is an interesting stat/fact


I think it's to point out of all the playoff teams...most of them are fairly early picks in the draft. One could come to the conclusion that to get a good LT...gotta draft them early.

beerlover
02-01-2008, 12:29 AM
now all Rick Smith has to do is trade down & get that 2nd rd. pick who translates into a starting LT (Anthony Collins, Kansas). :)

threetoedpete
02-01-2008, 02:44 AM
almost all 2nd round...

not sure exactly what to take away from that but it is an interesting stat/fact

After the second round you have an 87% chance of missing. And the precentages fall expodentially each consecutive round. See Seth Wand.


http://texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=829068&postcount=41

Wrote that a while go...might be apt.

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php?/weblog/entry/article166/

Both the Steelers and the Seahawks have focused on building strong lines through the draft. On offense, Pittsburgh will start three linemen drafted in the first round (guards Alan Faneca and Kendall Simmons and center Jeff Hartings, who was actually drafted by the Lions). Toss in tight end Heath Miller and four of the six front-line blockers are first round picks. Then note that left tackle Marvel Smith was taken with the seventh pick in round two and you'll truly realize where the draft focus of the Steelers has been the past decade. Seattle also expended top picks to build the left side of the line to protect Matt Hasselbeck's backside and to clear half the field for the running of Shaun Alexander. Perennial all-pro left tackle Walter Jones, perhaps the best in the business, was taken with the sixth pick of the 1997 draft. His sidekick, left guard Steve Hutchinson was taken with the 17th pick of the first round in 2001. Toss in tight end Jerramy Stevens and three of the six members of the offensive line are first rounders.

But now that we have Gibbs we got no worries...Draft the RB.


.

ItsAMarioParty
02-02-2008, 07:34 AM
ahh. That is a good point. I was just a little surprised that there weren't more first rounders I guess.

threetoedpete
02-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Profootball weekly has the average # of positions by year listed on their break down of positions. I believe that number is four. So basically it would take four years...on average, for every team to get shot at a legitmate OLT and LG canidate under this criteria ?
This is year seven for the Texans. And they've never done it.

beerlover
02-02-2008, 01:15 PM
look for another year out of the norm. unless they trade down. that would signal a desire to address needs which would include LT.

awtysst
02-02-2008, 01:20 PM
Profootball weekly has the average # of positions by year listed on their break down of positions. I believe that number is four. So basically it would take four years...on average, for every team to get shot at a legitmate OLT and LG canidate under this criteria ?
This is year seven for the Texans. And they've never done it.

Who was available each time the Texans picked in the first round? Better yet, lets take a look at the first round OTs in the past 7 drafts and compare them to our actual picks.

2002: Texans take David Carr
1st round OT:Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Levi Jones, Marc Colombo.
Columbo is out of the league now. Williams never lived up to his early hype. McKinnie has been a starter since day one and Jones has had one probowl alternate. At the end of the day,we probably should have gone in a lot of other directions like an Ed Reed, Julius Peppers but not OT.
Decision: push(Carr is gone, but Im not sure the OTs would have been better)

2003: Texans take Andre Johnson
1st round OT: George Foster, Kwame Harris
neither turned out that great. I think Dre was the right move.
Decision:Texans made right call

2004: Texans Take Dunta Robinson
1st round OT:Robert Gallery, Shawn Andrews, Vernon Carey
Gallery hasn't shown the brilliance for LT as people thought and is now a guard. Carey has bounced from Guard to tackle. Andrews has been solid. I think the Texans made the right decision here.
Decision:Texans made right call


2005: Texans take Travis Johnson
1st round OT: Jammal Brown, Alex Barron
Its hard to have passed on Jammal Brown a young probowl LT. Barron was drafted to succeed Pace and played RT until Pace got injured. He too has shown some good stuff. The sad thing is we had our pick of the two but traded down. NO grabbed Brown. We still could have taken Barron but we chose TJ. I think the best pick would have been Brown or even if we still make that trade we could have taken Barron. Bad move Texans.
Decision:Texans made wrong call

2006: Texans take Mario Williams
1st round OT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
The man left out of the who should the Texans take was LT Ferguson. The real stud on the Jets line has been a first rounder of the 2006 draft but it was center Mangold. Ferguson has done allright, but the jury is still out on him. I said it before and I will say it again, I supported Super Mario then and I support him now. Texans nailed this pick.
Decision:Texans made right call

2007: Texans take Amobe Okoye
1st round OT: Joe Thomas, Levi Brown, Joe Staley
Clearly we cannot evaluate this rookie group. However, I think we all knew that the Texans had NO shot at Joe Thomas and an outside shot at Levi. Levi is a RT anyway but playing with a lefty QB just makes sense for him. Staley has not shown enough either. I like Okoye and time will tell if we made the right decision.
Decision:Too early to say but right now looks like Texans made right call

So, at the end of the day the only legit tackles we could have gone after were: Jammal Brown or Alex Barron in 2005. All others would have been gone or never lived up to their pre draft hype.

Second Honeymoon
02-02-2008, 01:41 PM
The Texans have done plenty to try and improve their OL. And what is this hootinanny about them not addressing it in the draft? They have chosen OL on the first day (rounds 1-3) 2 out of 6 times the past two drafts. The only players other than OL that have been first day draftpicks of the Texans the past two years have been Mario, Okoye, and Ryans. You could throw Schaub in there if you want to be cruel, but my point is that we have talent on the line and the Texans HAVE devoted draft resources to OL over the years. Weary and Pitts were both 1st Day picks. That is 4 of the 5 projected starters through the draft as a first day pick.

With all this talk of tackles, I think the Texans would benefit most from an upgrade at Center.

Corrosion
02-02-2008, 02:25 PM
But now that we have Gibbs we got no worries...Draft the RB.


.

Even Gibbs has to have talent to work with .... This team has had a lack of talent at the LT spot since the begining . Its time to fix that ....

steelbtexan
02-02-2008, 03:21 PM
Even Gibbs has to have talent to work with .... This team has had a lack of talent at the LT spot since the begining . Its time to fix that ....

agreed

awtysst
02-02-2008, 03:34 PM
The Texans have done plenty to try and improve their OL. And what is this hootinanny about them not addressing it in the draft? They have chosen OL on the first day (rounds 1-3) 2 out of 6 times the past two drafts. The only players other than OL that have been first day draftpicks of the Texans the past two years have been Mario, Okoye, and Ryans. You could throw Schaub in there if you want to be cruel, but my point is that we have talent on the line and the Texans HAVE devoted draft resources to OL over the years. Weary and Pitts were both 1st Day picks. That is 4 of the 5 projected starters through the draft as a first day pick.

With all this talk of tackles, I think the Texans would benefit most from an upgrade at Center.

I think we have found our center in Greg Eslinger.
In terms of not doing anything in the draft, I point to TJ. Here was a draft where he had our choice of Alex Barron or Jammal Brown. Either of them would have been a day one starter for us. The point is that we had both of them in our grasp and instead went with TJ. When you have a need at LT and you have 2 very good looking players there you take one of them, not some overhyped DT.

Now, if we did have them we would not have had to use 2 3rd rounders on O line the next year. One of those picks could have been used on say Jerious Norwood and then with our 4th rounder we could have grabbed Elvis Dumervill and put him on the other side of Mario. Can you imagine a line with Mario, Amobe, and Elvis?!

Lucky
02-02-2008, 03:58 PM
almost all 2nd round...


That is an interesting factoid regarding recent left tackles. Still, almost half (15) of the starting LTs in the league were drafted in the 1st round.

These 2nd round playoff LTs were considered good prospects, but had some flaw(s) that lead to them not going in the opening round. Light was thought to have a small base and not a good run blocker. McNeil had some problem with his back that scared off some teams. Clifton seemed to lack the quick feet to play LT. Ugoh had the tools, but was critiqued as unpolished and lacking motivation. Adams was too fat and slow to face speed rushers. Barnes had an injury in his senior season and had lost strength. Roos was a small college project.

So are there LTs in this draft who might slip due to some perceived flaw? USC's Sam Baker might be one. Similar to Matt Light, Baker enters the draft with questions concerning his size and strength. But also like Light, Baker is well coached from a program that ran a pro-style passing attack. Baker could be more NFL ready than other LTs with greater physical skills.

beerlover
02-03-2008, 12:16 AM
to much focus on the 1st rd. pick. why? because we've traded away every 2nd rd. pick (excluding 06 thank god) for the last 5 drafts, go ahead count them. 2004 Casserly traded up for Babin, 2005 he traded the 2nd & 3rd rd. picks for Buchanon. Rick Smith had to come in & clean up the Carr wreck so in found a replacement but had to give away 2007 & 2008 2nd rd. picks for the rights to Schaub. ladies & gents the Texans have had only one 2nd rd. pick in the last five years & this is why we are in the current state of affairs regarding the elusive LT position. :beerfunnel:

go ahead & rack me or rep me whatever :music:

BSofA04
02-03-2008, 01:44 AM
So this draft is a no brainer....draft Chris Williams and life is all good. :doot:

BSofA04
02-03-2008, 01:45 AM
to much focus on the 1st rd. pick. why? because we've traded away every 2nd rd. pick (excluding 06 thank god) for the last 5 drafts, go ahead count them. 2004 Casserly traded up for Babin, 2005 he traded the 2nd & 3rd rd. picks for Buchanon. Rick Smith had to come in & clean up the Carr wreck so in found a replacement but had to give away 2007 & 2008 2nd rd. picks for the rights to Schaub. ladies & gents the Texans have had only one 2nd rd. pick in the last five years & this is why we are in the current state of affairs regarding the elusive LT position. :beerfunnel:

go ahead & rack me or rep me whatever :music:

War to beerlover.

Specnatz
02-03-2008, 12:17 PM
to much focus on the 1st rd. pick. why? because we've traded away every 2nd rd. pick (excluding 06 thank god) for the last 5 drafts, go ahead count them. 2004 Casserly traded up for Babin, 2005 he traded the 2nd & 3rd rd. picks for Buchanon. Rick Smith had to come in & clean up the Carr wreck so in found a replacement but had to give away 2007 & 2008 2nd rd. picks for the rights to Schaub. ladies & gents the Texans have had only one 2nd rd. pick in the last five years & this is why we are in the current state of affairs regarding the elusive LT position. :beerfunnel:

go ahead & rack me or rep me whatever :music:


This is why I would not take a RB in the first round this year. I would take either LT or CB with how things are shaping up for us in this draft.

thunderkyss
02-03-2008, 04:23 PM
2005: Texans take Travis Johnson
1st round OT: Jammal Brown, Alex Barron
Its hard to have passed on Jammal Brown a young probowl LT. Barron was drafted to succeed Pace and played RT until Pace got injured. He too has shown some good stuff. The sad thing is we had our pick of the two but traded down. NO grabbed Brown. We still could have taken Barron but we chose TJ. I think the best pick would have been Brown or even if we still make that trade we could have taken Barron. Bad move Texans.
Decision:Texans made wrong call


So, at the end of the day the only legit tackles we could have gone after were: Jammal Brown or Alex Barron in 2005. All others would have been gone or never lived up to their pre draft hype.

IMHO, Travis Johnson/Jamal Brown..... it's a wash. Jamal had a good year in '06, but struggled in '07.

thunderkyss
02-03-2008, 04:36 PM
I'd also like to point to Ephraim Salaam, and what he's done for us at the LT position. He's a lock to open next year as our starter.

The only serious issue with Salaam, is his health, because of his age.

Now, I agree we need a LT. But because of what the Denver offense has done(no 1st round LT in over 10 years), because of what Gibbs brings to the table, and because Kubiak has been adding "his guys" to our roster over the last two years, I seriously doubt we'll draft a LT on the first day. & I honestly don't believe we need to.

BSofA04
02-03-2008, 05:52 PM
I'd also like to point to Ephraim Salaam, and what he's done for us at the LT position. He's a lock to open next year as our starter.

The only serious issue with Salaam, is his health, because of his age.

Now, I agree we need a LT. But because of what the Denver offense has done(no 1st round LT in over 10 years), because of what Gibbs brings to the table, and because Kubiak has been adding "his guys" to our roster over the last two years, I seriously doubt we'll draft a LT on the first day. & I honestly don't believe we need to.

I absolutly agree with you and that's what scares me. We need to have a franchise LT who'll protect Schaub's blindside, and we need to groom that guy NOW. Any second day LT will be a project who'll need more coaching than a guy who's picked in the first two rounds. Salaam is servicable, but I think we can all agree that there were games in which he was owned. Atlanta comes to mind. OMG, then there's San Diego and Jax. I hope they buck the trend and make my happy by locking up a first round LT.

PHAROAH
02-04-2008, 12:59 AM
Looks like the 2nd round is the best value for Left Tackles only a few of the first picks have panned out look at Robert Gallery and we can go on how many have been busts.

Lucky
02-04-2008, 09:56 AM
Looks like the 2nd round is the best value for Left Tackles only a few of the first picks have panned out look at Robert Gallery and we can go on how many have been busts.
There are busts at every position. As I said earlier, 15 of the current starting LTs were taken in the opening round. The 1st round is still the place to be to find a LT.

bah007
02-04-2008, 10:12 AM
There are busts at every position. As I said earlier, 15 of the current starting LTs were taken in the opening round. The 1st round is still the place to be to find a LT.

I agree. The best players are most often found at the beginning of the draft. I think that might be why they are drafted first.

YoungTexanFan
02-04-2008, 12:16 PM
I agree. The best players are most often found at the beginning of the draft. I think that might be why they are drafted first.

Genius. My world just cleared up and I have a new perspective.

I think I'm in love. :heart:

Goldensilence
02-04-2008, 01:26 PM
I'd also like to point to Ephraim Salaam, and what he's done for us at the LT position. He's a lock to open next year as our starter.

The only serious issue with Salaam, is his health, because of his age.

Now, I agree we need a LT. But because of what the Denver offense has done(no 1st round LT in over 10 years), because of what Gibbs brings to the table, and because Kubiak has been adding "his guys" to our roster over the last two years, I seriously doubt we'll draft a LT on the first day. & I honestly don't believe we need to.

I'd still contend we need to address it first round or if somehow we manage to get the trade down it needs to be addressed early. What I think is lost in the fold is that prior to Gibb's and Co. Arrival in Denver they had an established o-line. We've continued to cobble one together.

We also need a center pretty badly and I'm really hoping Eslinger is that guy. Complete steal. Outland trophy Center as a cheap FA pickup. There very well could be a shuffle on the line come OTAs. I'm really hoping others aren't putting complete stock into Spencer returning. Tragic as it really is for a young man that had such a promising career ahead of him; two years is a long time though.

badboy
02-04-2008, 02:53 PM
I'd still contend we need to address it first round or if somehow we manage to get the trade down it needs to be addressed early. What I think is lost in the fold is that prior to Gibb's and Co. Arrival in Denver they had an established o-line. We've continued to cobble one together.

We also need a center pretty badly and I'm really hoping Eslinger is that guy. Complete steal. Outland trophy Center as a cheap FA pickup. There very well could be a shuffle on the line come OTAs. I'm really hoping others aren't putting complete stock into Spencer returning. Tragic as it really is for a young man that had such a promising career ahead of him; two years is a long time though.I too have wanted an LT for several years drafted in first. However, at #18 none will set the league on fire. I also agree with KT that Salaam will be starter day one. At our need positions, the only "great" type player at #18 will be one of the CBs and Stewart. As I think a CB can be had in FA, I go with Stewart. I am hoping a trade can be worked to free Dallas of both 1s. That would open things for me.