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View Full Version : Thoughts on Jamaal Charles


badboy
01-18-2008, 11:13 AM
I am looking for thoughts on how this UT junior would fit in Texans ZBS. Fumble-itis is the main red flag that I have. It seems to me that the games I saw or read about indicated the majority of those fumbles were after his forward motion had been slowed and he was fighting for extra yards. I am all for a back or receiver/TE fighting for extra yards, but at some point the player need to stop resisting and decrease the opportunities for the ball to be stripped. This should be something he could be taught to do or how to protect ball better. He did seem to hold on to the ball better as season progressed.

Size 6'1" 200 lbs and 4.39 speed is right there with Felix Jones and Slaton(smaller and a bit slower than Charles).

It has been said that Charles runs better outside than between the tackles, but the supposed move to the full ZBS of the new OC should play to Charles strength.

He also caught 17 passes for 199 yards. Not a lot but he can do it.

Kaiser Toro
01-18-2008, 11:26 AM
I like Jamal Charles and was having this conversation two days ago. He will be a scat back (Reggie Bush) or a potentially good ZBS RB. I think his value is in the late 4th to 5th round.

Second Honeymoon
01-18-2008, 11:37 AM
I like Jamal Charles and was having this conversation two days ago. He will be a scat back (Reggie Bush) or a potentially good ZBS RB. I think his value is in the late 4th to 5th round.

to get a talent like that in the 4th or 5th Rond would be outstanding. I would throw a freaking party.

badboy
01-18-2008, 11:42 AM
I like Jamal Charles and was having this conversation two days ago. He will be a scat back (Reggie Bush) or a potentially good ZBS RB. I think his value is in the late 4th to 5th round.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=RB&draftyear=2008&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC 2nd round per this source

TexansSeminole
01-18-2008, 12:00 PM
I like Jamal Charles and was having this conversation two days ago. He will be a scat back (Reggie Bush) or a potentially good ZBS RB. I think his value is in the late 4th to 5th round.

I think his speed is going to vault him up to the 3rd maybe even late 2nd. If he wasn't such a fumbler he could be late 1st.

The1ApplePie
01-18-2008, 12:06 PM
Smaller, weaker, less agile, and less versitile than Reggie:texflag:

Lucky
01-18-2008, 12:24 PM
Jamaal Charles will be overdrafted because of his speed and his upside. Not only does Charles have track speed, but he has displayed it on the field with his touchdowns averaging over 20 yards. Yeah, he has a fumbling problem (8 fumbles this season, an average of 34 carries/fumble). This was also only his first season as a starter.

But, I think Charles' big play potential and measurables will trump the negatives. It's possible that he could sneak into the 1st round, but early 2nd is more likely due to the depth at RB in this draft. If the Raiders don't take McFadden in the 1st, Charles would be a typical Al Davis pick early in the 2nd round.

threetoedpete
01-18-2008, 12:29 PM
Agreed Lucky. Great Blue Northern has elevated him into the first round with their lastest mock. Buyer beware.

Honoring Earl 34
01-18-2008, 12:40 PM
Hope this has'nt been posted but ... who would you take ... Jamaal Charles or Chris Johnson ?

Lucky
01-18-2008, 12:51 PM
... who would you take ... Jamaal Charles or Chris Johnson ?
I think there will be some teams that ask themselves the same question. I think Charles has been more consistent and played at a higher level of competition. Johnson may be more versatile, as a receiver and a returner. Charles is slightly larger, and may be able to carry a little more weight than he is currently. I'd give the slight edge to Charles.

Honoring Earl 34
01-18-2008, 12:59 PM
I think there will be some teams that ask themselves the same question. I think Charles has been more consistent and played at a higher level of competition. Johnson may be more versatile, as a receiver and a returner. Charles is slightly larger, and may be able to carry a little more weight than he is currently. I'd give the slight edge to Charles.

I think these guys are luxury picks . If your team is real good with no glaring needs then you pick a guy like these two in the 1st for 3rd downs or change of pace .

If you're the Texans and they are there in the 3rd you do cart wheels . I really wish we had a second round pick .

threetoedpete
01-18-2008, 01:09 PM
So does Rick Smith. Agreed if either one of them is still on the board in the third you make the pick then. That's value. to select either one of them with the eighteen, you're projecting Barry Sanders type potential out of them...I do not see that with either one of them. Again...buyer beware.

76Texan
01-18-2008, 02:17 PM
So does Rick Smith. Agreed if either one of them is still on the board in the third you make the pick then. That's value. to select either one of them with the eighteen, you're projecting Barry Sanders type potential out of them...I do not see that with either one of them. Again...buyer beware.

The "scout" from Denver likes Charles, but not in the early rounds (he didn't say specifically what round). Probably the fumble problem doesn't entice them much.

TexansSeminole
01-18-2008, 02:28 PM
I think there will be some teams that ask themselves the same question. I think Charles has been more consistent and played at a higher level of competition. Johnson may be more versatile, as a receiver and a returner. Charles is slightly larger, and may be able to carry a little more weight than he is currently. I'd give the slight edge to Charles.

The big difference between these two is fumbling. Chris Johnson fumbled in the bowl game that East Carolina played for the first time during the whole year (either that or he never lost a fumble). Experience is also a big factor as you stated. I'd take Charles over Johnson.

badboy
01-18-2008, 02:37 PM
I think these guys are luxury picks . If your team is real good with no glaring needs then you pick a guy like these two in the 1st for 3rd downs or change of pace .

If you're the Texans and they are there in the 3rd you do cart wheels . I really wish we had a second round pick .
Charles is 5-10 lbs lighter and 1 inch shorter that McFadden. McFadden rushed for 1830 with 5.6 avg, Charles 1619 with 6.3avg.

Two different type runners but both very productive against good teams. I like McFadden better, but he is not going to be there. Is Charles 30 picks or more worse than McFadden? What drops him below the second round? I'm not arguing just want to see some reason behind others thoughts he will be 3rd round or lower. It seems he would really fit well under the tutelage of our new assistant head coach.

TexansSeminole
01-18-2008, 02:40 PM
Charles is 5-10 lbs lighter and 1 inch shorter that McFadden. McFadden rushed for 1830 with 5.6 avg, Charles 1619 with 6.3avg.

Two different type runners but both very productive against good teams. I like McFadden better, but he is not going to be there. Is Charles 30 picks or more worse than McFadden? What drops him below the second round? I'm not arguing just want to see some reason behind others thoughts he will be 3rd round or lower. It seems he would really fit well under the tutelage of our new assistant head coach.

Again, the two things that seperate these two are fumbling, and tackle breaking ability. Both are in favor of McFadden. McFadden is a stiff arm champion. I haven't seen a stiff arm like his in awhile.

badboy
01-18-2008, 02:44 PM
The big difference between these two is fumbling. Chris Johnson fumbled in the bowl game that East Carolina played for the first time during the whole year (either that or he never lost a fumble). Experience is also a big factor as you stated. I'd take Charles over Johnson.Can you or someone get an accurate number for me on how many fumbles in 07 Charles had? I thought it was 7 with 4 losses and fairly early in the season. Most links I found agree he corrected that as season went on. I am not pushing Charles just trying to discover how some of you rule a player out or in.

Kaiser Toro
01-18-2008, 03:08 PM
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=RB&draftyear=2008&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC 2nd round per this source

Yep and the projected delta between Charles, the 7th RB and Choice, the 12th RB, is potentially three rounds, based on this source. Like I said, I like Charles. However, a scat back will not go that early unless he has a marketing machine. Then you come to the ZBS teams who are a finite few and have value based darfting down to a tee.

Personally I believe his value is in the late 4th or 5th rounds.

Honoring Earl 34
01-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Yep and the projected delta between Charles, the 7th RB and Choice, the 12th RB, is potentially three rounds, based on this source. Like I said, I like Charles. However, a scat back will not go that early unless he has a marketing machine. Then you come to the ZBS teams who are a finite few and have value based darfting down to a tee.

Personally I believe his value is in the late 4th or 5th rounds.

What if he ate Subways with Jared ?

Lucky
01-18-2008, 03:29 PM
Can you or someone get an accurate number for me on how many fumbles in 07 Charles had?

You basically have to go through the play by play to determine fumbles by individual college players. The NCAA doesn't track fumbles on a player basis. I found Charles fumbled 8 times (losing 5), spread pretty evenly through the season.

Central Florida - 2
Rice - 1
Oklahoma - 1
Baylor - 1
Texas Tech - 2
Arizona State - 1

threetoedpete
01-18-2008, 03:53 PM
It's not the fumbles that bother me with Charles...it's the ankles. The same things that make him fast will also make him an injury risk. Last time I checked the Jerome Mathis talk no one in here is too patient with injured guys. Including the HC.

However I've always been a proponent of a change of pace back. And as long as they don't over pay for the grey hounds...I'm on board. They're not all going off the board in the second round.

badboy
01-18-2008, 04:24 PM
It's not the fumbles that bother me with Charles...it's the ankles. The same things that make him fast will also make him an injury risk. Last time I checked the Jerome Mathis talk no one in here is too patient with injured guys. Including the HC.

However I've always been a proponent of a change of pace back. And as long as they don't over pay for the grey hounds...I'm on board. They're not all going off the board in the second round.Had not thought about ankles. hmm. I guess it will just depend on who is available each time our turn comes. If Steward is there and we have a CB in FA, it would be hard for me to see him not selected unless one of the premium LT falls. He could be a franchise type back. I don't see a franchise type LT after pick 5 or so.

Second Honeymoon
01-18-2008, 04:41 PM
It wasn't so much how many fumbles Charles had, it was when he had them. That fumble against OU right when he was about to score a TD was a ballbreaker. Fumbling is coachable. Track speed not so much. 1st Round tangibles with 4th Round intangibles.

If he is there in the middle 3rd Round, the Texans would have to look long and hard at the guy especially with Kubiak's history utilizing a running back by committee. He would probably be the BPA at a position of need if he is there at 18. I just hope we don't draft a RB in the 1st Round. Lots of bargains could be had later in the draft at the RB position. It's wicked deep.

As for injury concerns, thats always a total crapshoot. I never saw him as a china doll, I always saw him as a fumble waiting to happen.

Goldensilence
01-18-2008, 04:44 PM
Had not thought about ankles. hmm. I guess it will just depend on who is available each time our turn comes. If Steward is there and we have a CB in FA, it would be hard for me to see him not selected unless one of the premium LT falls. He could be a franchise type back. I don't see a franchise type LT after pick 5 or so.

There's definately a good quantity of first round talent at LT this year. A good one will there at 18 IF that's what we do(which I hope we will).

CB is definately going to be an interesting this coming year. As the draft nears I think to what extent Dunta looks like coming back will play a major role what we do there.

Still wary unless it's someone the caliber of McFadden or AP in the first. Still think we're better off going OL.

Mailman
01-18-2008, 05:00 PM
Someone already mentioned it upthread, and I agree completely: Jamaal Charles biggest negative isn't his fumbling or his ankles, it's his penchant for being tackled easily. His speed is outstanding and he can catch the ball out of the backfield, but I'm not convinced he's worth a first or second-round pick because he's just not that strong IMO.

bah007
01-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Someone already mentioned it upthread, and I agree completely: Jamaal Charles biggest negative isn't his fumbling or his ankles, it's his penchant for being tackled easily. His speed is outstanding and he can catch the ball out of the backfield, but I'm not convinced he's worth a first or second-round pick because he's just not that strong IMO.

Charles is never gonna be a truck, but he did add a power element to his game this year.

TexansSeminole
01-21-2008, 07:23 PM
You basically have to go through the play by play to determine fumbles by individual college players. The NCAA doesn't track fumbles on a player basis. I found Charles fumbled 8 times (losing 5), spread pretty evenly through the season.

Central Florida - 2
Rice - 1
Oklahoma - 1
Baylor - 1
Texas Tech - 2
Arizona State - 1

He had 258 carries as well, according to ESPN.com. That's about 3% of the time.

He has great talent, but those fumbles can be drive stoppers. Combine that with a team that leads the league in turnovers, if I am not mistaken, and you might have a scared GM and HC.

Someone already mentioned it upthread, and I agree completely: Jamaal Charles biggest negative isn't his fumbling or his ankles, it's his penchant for being tackled easily. His speed is outstanding and he can catch the ball out of the backfield, but I'm not convinced he's worth a first or second-round pick because he's just not that strong IMO.

He will have to add some lower body strength IMO to be an everydown back. He would be a great 3rd down back.

How is his blocking?

bah007
01-21-2008, 08:22 PM
He had 258 carries as well, according to ESPN.com. That's about 3% of the time.

He has great talent, but those fumbles can be drive stoppers. Combine that with a team that leads the league in turnovers, if I am not mistaken, and you might have a scared GM and HC.



He will have to add some lower body strength IMO to be an everydown back. He would be a great 3rd down back.

How is his blocking?

He doesn't do too bad as a pass blocker, but it is really hard to judge because they hardly ever use him.

Ogbonayya comes in on nearly every single pass play where the back stays in. Probably not a good sign.

PHAROAH
01-22-2008, 06:44 AM
In the Zone blocking scheme it's not about power running it's calls for the running back to take a step make the read and go so a speed back like charles would be a really good fit just think of clinton portis when he was in denver!!! I think jamal charles would be a great fit in Houston if we are able to trade back and pick up 2nd round pick I say grab him there. I would also take another back like a Cory Boyd in the 4th round to give that balance of speed and power like what the Eagles do with Bryan Westbrook & Correll Buckhalter.:fans:

opiedopie
01-22-2008, 08:00 AM
diff between Charles and Mcfadden, is we can get Charles
I think Charles is a much better back than S.Young is and he looks pretty good for denver. Once he runs at the combine Charles will be a first rounder!
Also you can fix fumblitis, and its about time we get some longhorns and aggies on this team!:texflag:

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2008, 08:03 AM
diff between Charles and Mcfadden, is we can get Charles
I think Charles is a much better back than S.Young is and he looks pretty good for denver. Once he runs at the combine Charles will be a first rounder!
Also you can fix fumblitis, and its about time we get some longhorns and aggies on this team!:texflag:

Just to level set here, Selvin Young was an undrafted free agent.

dalemurphy
01-22-2008, 08:12 AM
Someone already mentioned it upthread, and I agree completely: Jamaal Charles biggest negative isn't his fumbling or his ankles, it's his penchant for being tackled easily. His speed is outstanding and he can catch the ball out of the backfield, but I'm not convinced he's worth a first or second-round pick because he's just not that strong IMO.

A good rule of thumb: avoid Mack Brown coached players one day one of the draft- he doesn't get them NFL-ready. They mental toughness and the drive and work ethic to succeed. Almost every player to come out of UT the past 10 years has under-performed his talents:

Mike Williams
Leonard Davis
Ricky Williams
Shaun Rogers
Roy Williams
Cedric Benson
Quentin Jammer
Corey Redding
Derrick Johnson
Chris Simms

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2008, 08:20 AM
A good rule of thumb: avoid Mack Brown coached players one day one of the draft- he doesn't get them NFL-ready. They mental toughness and the drive and work ethic to succeed. Almost every player to come out of UT the past 10 years has under-performed his talents:

Mike Williams
Leonard Davis
Ricky Williams
Shaun Rogers
Roy Williams
Cedric Benson
Quentin Jammer
Corey Redding
Derrick Johnson
Chris Simms

That is interesting and an abbreviated list.

Sincerely,
Kyle Shanahan
Offensive Coordinator, Houston Texans
University of Texas Wide Receiver 01-02

badboy
01-22-2008, 09:36 AM
Quentin Jammer and the Patriots seem to be doing ok. I do not see a trade down coming. Texans will want it but don't think a team will step up. I also do not see Charles available at our pick in third, but I hope I am wrong. By that round he will stand pretty tall in the RB pool. If we have a LT & CB (free agency hint hint) I would be ok with Jamaal. I think he would excell in the Gibbs' offense and under his tutelage. If he got 15 - 18 carries, Dayne about 5 and whomever 5 that should do it. I think emphasis will be even more on passing this next year as our options there are inspiring.

Ole Miss Texan
01-22-2008, 09:43 AM
If the texans grade him out to a mid to high 2nd round pick (32-45) then I wouldn't select him at 18 if we had all our positions filled. That is unless every other prospect was graded equally or lower which I highly doubt.

If we're going to take a RB in the 1st round this year, it better be a guy who can play in the ZBS, has great vision, waits for the hole to develop, hits that hole with great acceleration, is able to make people miss in the open field, does NOT go down on first contact/will break tackles, catches the ball well out of the backfield, and is able to block in pass protection.

They won't take a RB in the 1st unless he's the total package and is close to BPA, imo. They ain't taking a RB in the 1st just because he's fast and catchces the ball well out of the backfield.

bah007
01-22-2008, 12:50 PM
delete

badboy
01-22-2008, 01:07 PM
If the texans grade him out to a mid to high 2nd round pick (32-45) then I wouldn't select him at 18 if we had all our positions filled. That is unless every other prospect was graded equally or lower which I highly doubt.

If we're going to take a RB in the 1st round this year, it better be a guy who can play in the ZBS, has great vision, waits for the hole to develop, hits that hole with great acceleration, is able to make people miss in the open field, does NOT go down on first contact/will break tackles, catches the ball well out of the backfield, and is able to block in pass protection.

They won't take a RB in the 1st unless he's the total package and is close to BPA, imo. They ain't taking a RB in the 1st just because he's fast and catchces the ball well out of the backfield.I wonder how Charles rushed for 3,328 yards in three seasons? He must have been able to do some of the things you mentioned. I did not see many entire defenses falling down when he got the ball.

bah007
01-22-2008, 01:22 PM
If we're going to take a RB in the 1st round this year, it better be a guy who can play in the ZBS, has great vision, waits for the hole to develop, hits that hole with great acceleration, is able to make people miss in the open field, does NOT go down on first contact/will break tackles, catches the ball well out of the backfield, and is able to block in pass protection.

Everything I bolded is stuff that Charles has proven he can do. Especially this past season.

The underlined parts are the areas where he is unproven.

Ole Miss Texan
01-22-2008, 01:25 PM
I wonder how Charles rushed for 3,328 yards in three seasons? He must have been able to do some of the things you mentioned. I did not see many entire defenses falling down when he got the ball.

I'm just stating generalizations on the type of RB I think this Staff may consider taking in the 1st round. I think they would have to have qualities of all of them.

I'm not coming down on Charles at all and am definitely no expert on his game. But I'd be careful projecting college stats into the NFL. I'm not saying Charles would be unsuccessful by any means. I think we'd be a better team with him than with out him...but the question being raised is do all his qualities measure out to the #18 overall? That's a question I can't answer but hopefully our scouts would be able to.

bah007
01-22-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm just stating generalizations on the type of RB I think this Staff may consider taking in the 1st round. I think they would have to have qualities of all of them.

I'm not coming down on Charles at all and am definitely no expert on his game. But I'd be careful projecting college stats into the NFL. I'm not saying Charles would be unsuccessful by any means. I think we'd be a better team with him than with out him...but the question being raised is do all his qualities measure out to the #18 overall? That's a question I can't answer but hopefully our scouts would be able to.

I agree completely. I think the questions about his pass blocking will be his biggest problem.

There's two options on his blocking ability:
1. He is a good pass blocker, but Ogbonnaya is just better.
2. He is a poor pass blocker, and that is why Ogbonnaya came in the game for those situations.

Specnatz
01-22-2008, 01:37 PM
I agree completely. I think the questions about his pass blocking will be his biggest problem.

There's two options on his blocking ability:
1. He is a good pass blocker, but Ogbonnaya is just better.
2. He is a poor pass blocker, and that is why Ogbonnaya came in the game for those situations.

The funny thing is I have seend this guy drafted anywhere from the first round to the 5th round, I have never seen such a huge range unless you are talking from the 4th round to not being drafted.

PHAROAH
01-22-2008, 03:57 PM
After he work out he will grade out as a mid 2nd round choice who will turn to be a very productive player.

badboy
01-22-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm just stating generalizations on the type of RB I think this Staff may consider taking in the 1st round. I think they would have to have qualities of all of them.

I'm not coming down on Charles at all and am definitely no expert on his game. But I'd be careful projecting college stats into the NFL. I'm not saying Charles would be unsuccessful by any means. I think we'd be a better team with him than with out him...but the question being raised is do all his qualities measure out to the #18 overall? That's a question I can't answer but hopefully our scouts would be able to.
I definitely agree with projecting but is that not exactly what we do with any player. Until one lines up in the NFL (ahem Ryan Leaf) there are no guarantees. I am off for dinner. Talk to you guys tomorrow. God Bless.

TexansSeminole
01-22-2008, 06:02 PM
I agree completely. I think the questions about his pass blocking will be his biggest problem.

There's two options on his blocking ability:
1. He is a good pass blocker, but Ogbonnaya is just better.
2. He is a poor pass blocker, and that is why Ogbonnaya came in the game for those situations.

I think your right. That and his fumbling issues will take him out of the first and into the second maybe 3rd round.

Ole Miss Texan
01-22-2008, 06:03 PM
I definitely agree with projecting but is that not exactly what we do with any player. Until one lines up in the NFL (ahem Ryan Leaf) there are no guarantees. I am off for dinner. Talk to you guys tomorrow. God Bless.

Obviously, Charles did many things right to have a successful collegiate career. But throwing out collegiate rushing yards is not projecting how he's going to play in the NFL. There's hundreds of examples of 1st round busts and great players that went undrafted. I don't think Ryan Leaf was drafted so high because of his college stats but because of his size, athleticism and potential. Of course things went horribly wrong and San Diego regrets their decision to trade up to select him.

I just think we as fans need to be more careful at why a player should or should not be selected at our spot. There could be a really highly rated Cornerback available, but we need to understand if he would fit what we're trying to do on defense or if he's been playing in a different system. There's no use selecting an incredible player if he doesn't even fit our team (3-4 linebacker when we use a 4-3). It sounds like Charles is an ideal fit for the ZBS so this doesn't seem like a problem whatsoever.

so seeing how this post is pretty much off topic....I like how this kid tackles!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IlEsmN4vluA

bah007
01-22-2008, 07:03 PM
so seeing how this post is pretty much off topic....I like how this kid tackles!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IlEsmN4vluA

Good thing the hit was awesome, cuz the first attempt was UGLY.