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View Full Version : Running Game-O line or The Running Backs


Texanballer
01-02-2008, 09:57 PM
New poster, woot woot

anyways. I was talking with one of the mods here, cool dude.

And i had the question of our running game was lacking due to the holes not created by the o line or our running backs not being able to maneuver themselves through holes and extra yardage.

thoughts?

mexican_texan
01-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Ahman Green couldn't find any holes, but Dayne and Walker could.

Honoring Earl 34
01-02-2008, 10:05 PM
New poster, woot woot

anyways. I was talking with one of the mods here, cool dude.

And i had the question of our running game was lacking due to the holes not created by the o line or our running backs not being able to maneuver themselves through holes and extra yardage.

thoughts?

We do not have great backs .

We do not have a great OL either .

Mr. White
01-02-2008, 10:18 PM
I've pondered this one myself. Kinda funny.

Seems like the pass blocking was atrocious under Capers.

Now the run blocking is suspect under Kubes (Sherman?)

IMO, they're one 1st round LT away from solving this riddle.

Grid
01-02-2008, 10:19 PM
yep..we are decidedly mediocre in both areas. Not bad, just not good either.

Improving our Oline would make our running game much more servicable with our existing backs, and would also help to improve our already prolific passing game.

Mr. White
01-02-2008, 10:20 PM
Something else to consider is the playcalling. Seems like Dayne would often get hot in the first half and then Sherman would abandon the run altogether in the second half.

The1ApplePie
01-02-2008, 10:25 PM
Its both, but you can go either way

Chargers got LT first, then got an O-Line

The Bronco's system is dead. The NFL neutered it to nothing with their crackdown on cut blocks and other cheapshots.

The Pencil Neck
01-03-2008, 01:05 AM
People are dogging AG but... if you look at the stats and you see his 3.7 ypc and you think he didn't do very well. But if you look at the first two games (when he was still relatively healthy), he was averaging 4.5 ypc against KC and then 4.7 ypc against Carolina. He was actually injured in the KC game. He tried to play through his injury and he was able to do it against Carolina but it finally caught up to him against Indy (1.3 ypc) and it was downhill from there.

Dayne's production in September and October was horrible. He was averaging 2.9 ypc in those months. But in November, he started averaging 5 ypc and in December, he was averaging 4.5 ypc (with a bum ankle).

With our line, a really quality back (like AG when healthy) could find room to run. Darius was starting to get the hang of it by the end of the year and it will be interesting to see if he can continue to develop.

There were holes there.

But that doesn't mean that we should neglect the line. Kubiak knows that we need a stud LT; he's mentioned it in his pressers. And hopefully we do something (or have already done something) to address our issues at C. Our line is inconsistent and I think, a little substandard. We were able to hide its weaknesses with good coaching and gameplanning but we need to make it a strength of our team.

Thorn
01-03-2008, 08:12 AM
I've always been of the opinion games are won and lost at the line (either side), so I would be happy with the Texans drafting lineman (either side) as the 1st round draft pick from here on out.

Teams have won super bowls with less than steller tallent at certain key positions, but they would never make it to the super bowl in the 1st place without good linemen.

Specnatz
01-03-2008, 12:06 PM
MAybe it was the competition but in the first two games we had a running game but then Steve McKinney went down and our running game suffered. Yes I think we need a LT but I firmly believe that Center is also a major concern as well.

Dallas_Texan
01-03-2008, 12:32 PM
MAybe it was the competition but in the first two games we had a running game but then Steve McKinney went down and our running game suffered. Yes I think we need a LT but I firmly believe that Center is also a major concern as well.

I think we all agree with you here. LT will be our first round pick unless we get someone like Flozell (not gonna happen, getting old anyways) in the offseason. But yes, Center is a HUGE hole as well. But, I think if we have a good offseason upgrading other areas like CB, and RB, then LT in the first round.....McKinney and White can hold the C position down until 2009 when we can draft one in the second round or get one in the offseason 08-09.

2008 will be fun to watch, but 2009 will be our playoff year!! My 2010 Superbowl prediction is still standing!!

Ole Miss Texan
01-03-2008, 01:16 PM
I think the OL has a bigger impact on our running game than the RB's do. Drafting a guy like Jonathan Stewart or Rashard Mendenhall in the 1st round would GREATLY improve our team and I'd be all for it if they went that way, but I think getting our OL better at both pass protection and run blocking is of utmost importance.

To me, it's a lot more important to get more consistent 4-5 yard gains extending drives eating up clock than it is to have a huge run every now and again. The threat of having a RB that can go the distance would be benificial but I think our offense is geared more towards eating up clock, extending drives, wearing down the DL, short passes out of the backfield, etc- so getting our OL built up is more important to me.

At this point we still need a Quality Young Left Tackle, A Center (preferably young), and possibly another Guard. Fred Weary and Steve McKinney were bad injuries for us as mostly was Charles Spencer was. He looked good for a game but we really didn't get to him against too many DE's too know if he would actually work at LT. Hope he comes back healthy and just makes it somewhere on the Line-maybe take over Weary's spot next year? I think Spencer would be a great run blocker.

Short yardage situations frustrated me this year, 4th and 1 and on the goal line. we had a tough time getting the push up front to provide a little daylight for any RB.

HOU-TEX
01-03-2008, 01:54 PM
I'll begin by saying we most definitely need an LT and C to replace age and ineffectiveness.

Having said that, I truly believe there were a few hundred yards left on the field by our RB's. With Green out of the lineup we had lack of vision, speed and talent at RB. There were many times Grimace had a gaping hole run through only to be caught by a LB or DB.

I know stats don't really mean a whole heck of alot these days, but we are towards the bottom of the league in runs over 20yds(7), over 40(1) and ypc.

Anywho, the Texans are getting better and Kubiak/Smith have verbally admitted to 3 of our major needs. I have every reason to believe they're going to addressed this off-season via draft or FA.

:texflag:

badboy
01-03-2008, 02:20 PM
A great running back would find holes to slip through, unless the hole closes first which can happen to H.O.F. type backs. This often leads to pounding on your high $ RB and possibly injuries. A great LT can hold that hole open so an good RB can make it through. A RB does not have to go over the LT/LG but can go right and if quick enough can do end arounds. We have established that Dayne and Green when healthy can go between the tackles. IMO, we have not established a RB that can run outside of tackles. The in between the tackles RB will take a greater pounding.

I don't see a LT in FA and quite possibly there may not be a high quality LT @ 18. There should be good quality RBs as low as 3rd round. Same with CBs. This is based on the juniors coming out. So, I would take care of the LT in first. If Clady or Baker available, he's the pick @18. If not, I would hope for trade down and use lower first for whoever fits. Chris Williams, Mike McGlynn and even Alex Boone that other posters have said is creeping up should be looked at. We may have to reach, but demand outweighs supply this draft. In 2nd or 3rd if no trade and I doubt one will be made, you go for the RB. Just my thoughts.

76Texan
01-03-2008, 04:00 PM
Stats may not tell the whole story; but perhaps we might be able to infer a few things about our running game from these:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff.php

Our weighted offense rank (#7) supposedly tells us that we are more efficient toward the end of the year.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

Our overall rank for the O-line (#10) suggests that our linemen as a group is at least average.

Our 10+ rank (#22) indicates that we didn't have many long runs.
Combined that with our Power rank (#10) suggest that our running game efficiency depends more on the O-line than our running backs.
This is also supported by our Stuffed rank (#1 - Wow, we're number one at something).

Note: The stuff rank alone may just indicate that our great Dayne hardly got caught behind the LOS. He's almost always good to fall forward at least half a yard. j/khttp://texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Insideop
01-03-2008, 05:11 PM
I think the OL has a bigger impact on our running game than the RB's do. Drafting a guy like Jonathan Stewart or Rashard Mendenhall in the 1st round would GREATLY improve our team and I'd be all for it if they went that way, but I think getting our OL better at both pass protection and run blocking is of utmost importance.

To me, it's a lot more important to get more consistent 4-5 yard gains extending drives eating up clock than it is to have a huge run every now and again. The threat of having a RB that can go the distance would be benificial but I think our offense is geared more towards eating up clock, extending drives, wearing down the DL, short passes out of the backfield, etc- so getting our OL built up is more important to me.

At this point we still need a Quality Young Left Tackle, A Center (preferably young), and possibly another Guard. Fred Weary and Steve McKinney were bad injuries for us as mostly was Charles Spencer was. He looked good for a game but we really didn't get to him against too many DE's too know if he would actually work at LT. Hope he comes back healthy and just makes it somewhere on the Line-maybe take over Weary's spot next year? I think Spencer would be a great run blocker.

Short yardage situations frustrated me this year, 4th and 1 and on the goal line. we had a tough time getting the push up front to provide a little daylight for any RB.

OMT, I agree with everything you have to say here. I too am concerned about the injuries to McKinney, Weary, Spencer and also White. To think that some here believe that the Center position is set with McKinney and White to me seems a little shortsighted. How can anyone know Mckinney will be back at 100% by the start of the season? How does anyone here know that White will be back 100% at the beginning of the season? And the same goes for Weary. Can Spencer even play at the same level he did in early 2006? No one can answer these questions now, so there is no reason to rely on any of these players next year unless they are in camp at 100% and ready to play. To do otherwise, in my mind, would be foolish!

To me the Center position will be critical this year. Flanagan, though he did OK in the later games, will be entering his 13th or 14th NFL season, and may not even come back. McKinney will be entering his 11th NFL season and is coming off major knee surgery. White, though young, will be coming off major knee surgery also and may not be ready since his injury occured later in the season. Hodgdon, who got cut at the beginning of the season, will probably be invited back to camp, but I don't think he has what they are looking for at Center. That leaves Greg Eslinger, a 5th round pick of Denver in 2006, who was on their PS until this past Nov. when Cleveland snatched him, then cut him in Dec. Rick Smith picked him up a few days later and I think he has the potential to be a very good Center. He won the Outland and Rimington trophies as a Senior at Minnesota and was considered by many to be the best Center in College Football in 2006. He has potential, but with all the other question marks at this position, I still think we need to address it in the Draft.

OMT, you are right about the possible move of Spencer to RG if Weary doesn't make it back next year. I think I heard Kubes say something about this as a possibility a few weeks ago on 610 radio (I think). And, from what Smith and Kubes are saying, it looks like they will go after a LT in the Draft or FA (most likely Draft). The only question now is whether they go for the LT in the 1st round, the 3rd round, or do they try to trade back in the 1st and get an extra 3rd rounder or maybe a 2nd rounder. This Draft is loaded with LT's. They don't have any real top rated LT's like Thomas was last year, but they are loaded with good solid picks for the 1st few rounds. There will probably be 3 or 4 in the 1st round selected and more good ones in the 2nd. That's why I think we have to get one in the 1st and not wait until the 3rd when most of the good one will be gone. We could get lucky, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. JMHO!

vtech9
01-05-2008, 12:00 AM
I still think Otah out of Pitt would be a good LT for us, and at 18 or even lower with a trade down, he owuld be right there for us.

Carr Bombed
01-05-2008, 12:27 AM
It's the runningbacks......I have season tickets 20 rows off field level and there has been PLENTY of times where a back with speed would've took it to the house. Think of all the 10 to 15/20 yard runs Dayne has had recently.......give him more speed and it's a game breaking run.

Now insert Walker who is a back with average speed, but has excellent vision.......he has no problem with picking up positive yards....but he also doesn't have the speed to take one to the house.

Texans don't have the best run blocking line, but they are FAR from the worst, they just need a "FRANCHISE" back with SPEED.......something they've never had.

Grid
01-05-2008, 01:28 AM
Addressing needs at RB would be like sewing a patch onto a hole. You arent fixing the problem, you are just covering it up.

With a better Oline we may still lack elite speed at RB..but elite speed is not required to have a great running game. Rather than focusing on those few times where a back broke away for 10-15 yards..and wondering about what a faster RB would have been able to do.. id like to see us address the Oline so that our existing backs can break for 10-15 yards alot more often.

Additionally.. a franchise back only addresses our running game.. a better oline improves every aspect of our offense. Well, actually.. a franchise RB would effect every aspect of our offense as well..but the better Oline would have a greater impact on our offense as a whole.

Carr Bombed
01-05-2008, 01:54 AM
Addressing needs at RB would be like sewing a patch onto a hole. You arent fixing the problem, you are just covering it up.

With a better Oline we may still lack elite speed at RB..but elite speed is not required to have a great running game. Rather than focusing on those few times where a back broke away for 10-15 yards..and wondering about what a faster RB would have been able to do.. id like to see us address the Oline so that our existing backs can break for 10-15 yards alot more often.

Additionally.. a franchise back only addresses our running game.. a better oline improves every aspect of our offense. Well, actually.. a franchise RB would effect every aspect of our offense as well..but the better Oline would have a greater impact on our offense as a whole.

Outside of a couple of people this is the same line that made DD (a 4th rounder) a house hold name, a football fantasy name.......this hasn't been a bad rushing line..infact it's kinda funny how most of our pass offense (which includes almost all the big plays this year came off of PA passes) which feeds off the threat of a run.

Our problem has NOT been the run blocking, it was been Salaam's inability of picking up the SPEED RUSHER. WE'VE always been a decent run blocking team, but we've ALWAYS lacked that bonified PASS BLOCKER.........there's a difference in RUN BLOCKING and PASS BLOCKING...we have flunked at one and not the other.

AnthonyE
01-05-2008, 01:58 AM
If we don't get a LT in the draft, we can always wait until next year. Us Texans fans are used to it. It'll hell to try to fix all of our needs this year alone. Besides! I want a RB anyway (Stewart, most of all). A player we can be proud of at the end of the year for once besides DeMeco and Mario.

If we get one during the 2009 draft it'll be just in time for our deep playoff push, assuming we make the playoffs this upcoming year. ;)

leebigeztx
01-05-2008, 04:21 PM
I think other than the to's the offense is good enogh to score 24ppg with everyone healthy, but the defense needs work. no pressure aside from williams, can't really stop the run, and other than robinson and now bennett no one can cover. I think you have to be able to get heat on peyton with front four, stop addai with front 7 and cover by dropping 7 in coverage. sounds like a steep task, but that's what it is. Beat the Colts is the goal. Not play with them, but to win the division. Those who think u can hold thw ball and keep them off the field is fooling themselves. The defense should get the attention for the big goal. I like stewart,mcfadden, turner and the rest, but u got to stop peyton.

beerlover
01-05-2008, 05:50 PM
Linemen are like foundation pieces & your best long term investments, pay em' well & treat em' right. But you can draft them in latter rounds like any other position. the important thing is adding talent & improving this team going forward. The 08 draft is loaded with tackles who will play in the NFL, this is a route most agree the Texans will choose but in the process can afford to trade down to still get one while adding another pick for a RB/CB.

76Texan
01-07-2008, 04:32 PM
I'm sure that many folks had either listened to Kubiak or read the transcription.

I just want to mention the part about the O-line:

(on the stellar play of the offensive line this season) “Well, you know what, I’m going to start with their coach first, because I’m going to tell you what, John Benton, the job he did this year, I mean he is a – you know, when John came to me a couple of years ago, I never had so many calls from older coaches telling me how good they thought this young coach was. And when I brought him here, of course (Mike) Sherman was here to work with him at that spot, too, because I really didn’t know that much about John; I just really was going on reputation and the guys that were really backing him. And, man, he’s done a tremendous job. He’s bringing along young players. He’s great with the older guys.

“The key to the group is they were all out there. They played, for the most part, once we got settled down once we lost Steve (McKinney), the whole group played all year until of course Fred (Weary) had his situation. But Ephraim (Salaam), the way he played all year long. Chester (Pitts) was out there every snap, has become a better player in the last two years. Every time I’ve been around him, he’s gotten better. Mike Flanagan was healthy, played extremely well, held the group together. (Mike) Brisiel is a guy who got one opportunity and, boy, did he take advantage of it. He’s going to be hard to get out of there. And then I think Eric (Winston) has become a pro. I mean, the biggest compliment to pay Eric right now is we’re in the last week of the season, he had a back problem, he went out there and played every play yesterday. So he’s got it figured out. So do we need to get better there? Yes. And we’ve got some young guys to give us a chance to help us there. We need that young tackle, that left tackle that we think’s the answer for this organization for a long, long time and that Ephraim can help bring along with us. We’ve got to go find that answer. Of course (Rashad) Butler’s a great pickup by Rick (Smith). We’ll see where he’s at, but everybody in this league’s looking for somebody who can protect the quarterback’s blindside for many, many years, and we’re no different at this point.”

.........
(on if there is any chance that T Charles Spencer returns) “You know, I saw him up in the office this morning, and I was teasing him. I said, ‘Charlie, are you checking out?’ and I said, ‘I want to make sure you check in next year.’ He’s a great kid. He’s been through a hard deal. That’s a serious injury. I think I’ve said this to y’all, over the course of the past month, for the first time in the last year or so, I’ve had doctors and I have trainers telling me that they feel pretty good that he’s going to make it back and play again. That wasn’t the case for a long time, so I’m encouraged by that, and he is running on the treadmill with a certain percentage of his body weight, so that’s a positive. Now, when Charles makes the move to come back, do we put him at guard, do we get him off the edge, those are questions that we have to answer. But Charles should be in a football mode when we get to the offseason program, so that’s a positive thing.”

CoastalTexan
01-07-2008, 04:36 PM
Spencer at Right Guard would look very nice if he can't handle the Left Tackle spot.

leebigeztx
01-11-2008, 12:08 AM
Instead of starting a new thread, I decided to pull up a old one since gibbs is in town.I know everyone thinks lt in the 1st but during gibbs reign in denver they didn't have any 1st rd draft picks. In fact, gibbs looks for a certain type of guy and he teaches them his way.

thunderkyss
01-11-2008, 07:43 AM
It's the runningbacks......I have season tickets 20 rows off field level and there has been PLENTY of times where a back with speed would've took it to the house. Think of all the 10 to 15/20 yard runs Dayne has had recently.......give him more speed and it's a game breaking run.

Now insert Walker who is a back with average speed, but has excellent vision.......he has no problem with picking up positive yards....but he also doesn't have the speed to take one to the house.

Texans don't have the best run blocking line, but they are FAR from the worst, they just need a "FRANCHISE" back with SPEED.......something they've never had.


It's hard to argue these statements..

But I'm going to try anyway.

First of all, yes if we had running backs with great speed, we'd have scored on several long runs this year.

If we hadn't led the league in turnovers(none that I can recall from our running backs), we'd have led the league in scoring, no doubt in my mind.

So in my mind, that brings up the question, do we need a running back with break away speed?

I don't believe so. I'm not against drafting a running back in the first, I'm not against acquiring a RB with speed(Michael Bennette would have been nice), I just don't believe it is necessary to have a back with world class speed.

Terrell Davis is probably my favortie running back from the Denver system, and he didn't have break away speed.

If it were up to me, my first round pick would be BPA, with a strong lean towards the defensive side of the ball, because Kubiak's offense has been pretty good the past two years, with FA acquisitions, and mid round talent. We need to stop the mental errors.

thunderkyss
01-11-2008, 07:50 AM
I think other than the to's the offense is good enogh to score 24ppg with everyone healthy, but the defense needs work. no pressure aside from williams, can't really stop the run, and other than robinson and now bennett no one can cover. I think you have to be able to get heat on peyton with front four, stop addai with front 7 and cover by dropping 7 in coverage. sounds like a steep task, but that's what it is. Beat the Colts is the goal. Not play with them, but to win the division. Those who think u can hold thw ball and keep them off the field is fooling themselves. The defense should get the attention for the big goal. I like stewart,mcfadden, turner and the rest, but u got to stop peyton.

If we could get away with 14 people on the field, Peyton would definitely have trouble. :whip:

& I'm with you on stopping Peyton, but we need to win our division. To do that, we've also got to beat Jacksonville & Tennessee. Those teams are built on Defense. Jacksonville, we can handle, but we stall, stumble, and fall on our face, facing Tennessee's defense.

brickman
01-11-2008, 11:04 AM
I would take o-line. You build the foundation of the house before you put in all the nice things. It's the support that makes the house strong. The o-line makes the offense strong. Isn't it ironic how some running backs are great where they are.... leave and sign a nice deal and don't do anything. Why is that do you think?

Dallas_Texan
01-11-2008, 12:04 PM
It's hard to argue these statements..

But I'm going to try anyway.

First of all, yes if we had running backs with great speed, we'd have scored on several long runs this year.

If we hadn't led the league in turnovers(none that I can recall from our running backs), we'd have led the league in scoring, no doubt in my mind.

So in my mind, that brings up the question, do we need a running back with break away speed?

I don't believe so. I'm not against drafting a running back in the first, I'm not against acquiring a RB with speed(Michael Bennette would have been nice), I just don't believe it is necessary to have a back with world class speed.

Terrell Davis is probably my favortie running back from the Denver system, and he didn't have break away speed.

If it were up to me, my first round pick would be BPA, with a strong lean towards the defensive side of the ball, because Kubiak's offense has been pretty good the past two years, with FA acquisitions, and mid round talent. We need to stop the mental errors.

I agree with that, clearly they've done much better than in the past, but what's better? They've put more points on the board, but usually it comes from long play passes that get us a TD within a 2 minute drive, and then our defense is back on the field without resting. We need a LT and C that can help our current running backs average 4+ ypc so we can rely on the first downs from the running game and eat up some clock. I think with the acquisition of a CB and an OLB in FA or draft, we have a good enough defense to make plays and win games...we just need to keep them rested.

AND GET DUNTA the BEAST HEALTHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tulexan
01-11-2008, 12:08 PM
Maybe we should buy Dunta a hyperbaric chamber like TO uses to recover from injuries

TheRealJoker
01-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Gotta go with o-line. We fix the OL and the problems that hurt us last year will be solved. Give the qb more time in the pocket and they wont force stupid passes that result in turnovers. Give the rb bigger holes to run through and we've got ourselves a redzone offense plus our defense can take a break before going out to defend a LONG field instead of a short one.

Mr PC
01-15-2008, 01:36 PM
I go with O-line. Fixing O-line help the run game and the passing game. Green, Dayne, Walker, Taylor, Leach is not the best stable of running backs but if our O-line can get the job done those backs can be effective. Besides, there are plenty of running backs that will be availble in the later rounds, and a few good ones always go undrafted (Willie Parker, Selvin Young, Earnest Graham, Pierre Thomas, Mike Bell, etc).

PHAROAH
01-15-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't think that the O-line is that far away plus you guys forgetting Charles Spencer and Rashad Butler will both be healthy and ready to battle it for the OLT spot that E. Salaam held down pretty decent and we gave up only 22 sacks which was down from the previous year of 43 sacks.:texflag: :pirate:

leebigeztx
01-15-2008, 02:14 PM
I look at the current free agent crop and think the texans can get one. I mean washington might cut portis since they are 22m over the cap. Tatum Bell didn't have a good yr in Detroit, but he had good success with Kubes in Denver. I like the idea of o-line, but they had a some holes to run thru and the qb didn't get hit a lot, but line can always get upgraded.

PHAROAH
01-15-2008, 03:08 PM
I look at the current free agent crop and think the texans can get one. I mean washington might cut portis since they are 22m over the cap. Tatum Bell didn't have a good yr in Detroit, but he had good success with Kubes in Denver. I like the idea of o-line, but they had a some holes to run thru and the qb didn't get hit a lot, but line can always get upgraded.I feel you man but if you look at the teams who were dominate they always drafted there skill position players except for the rams and steelers when they got jerome bettis & marshall faulk.

Goldensilence
01-16-2008, 11:18 AM
It's the runningbacks......I have season tickets 20 rows off field level and there has been PLENTY of times where a back with speed would've took it to the house. Think of all the 10 to 15/20 yard runs Dayne has had recently.......give him more speed and it's a game breaking run.

Now insert Walker who is a back with average speed, but has excellent vision.......he has no problem with picking up positive yards....but he also doesn't have the speed to take one to the house.

Texans don't have the best run blocking line, but they are FAR from the worst, they just need a "FRANCHISE" back with SPEED.......something they've never had.

Jus going to point out the last two guys the get to that 2000 yard echelon weren't the homerun hitting RBs you're talking about.

No they're not the worst Run blocking line but the pass protection is also something of concern. The 22 sacks line is great but we had two Qb's who got the ball out quick and knew where to go. I'd also like to mention our WRs who were ready on hot routes and knew what to do. The offense looked a lot better but if we're wanting to make a playoff push bottom line is we're going to have to do better in our division. Protect the QB and get usa good foundation for our running game.

Oline in '08.

threetoedpete
01-16-2008, 10:58 PM
Well all I know about it is last week when the Chragers needed it, their o-line took over the game in the fourth quarter. I'm just tring to remeber the last time this o-line took over a game in the fourth quarter and dominated anyone much less the colts. Build the franchise inide out. Fix the lines, then go after the rest after you have the lines sorted out. That's the only way it works.

And some of you I don't know what you were watching but every elite DT they came across, they got stuffed.
And the only guy, with all due respect to the posted Kubes' coach speak posted above me, to execute a block in space consistantly was Erick Winton. Don't take my word for it go back and watch the fricken tape...especailly yours Thunder Kiss. You J. A.

Rex King
01-19-2008, 03:41 PM
I'm with ya TTP, except for the J.A. part. They improved some with a better QB behind them, and they'll probably improve more with Gibbs. But after he left Atlanta, their play sunk back into mediocrity. We'll probably have him for two years at most. Butler, White, Studdard, Fry, +/- Spencer could all develop under him, but more than likely they're back-up material. And not only about blocking in space, but Winston is the only guy with a definite long-term future on the line.

PHAROAH
01-20-2008, 01:45 PM
Jus going to point out the last two guys the get to that 2000 yard echelon weren't the homerun hitting RBs you're talking about.

No they're not the worst Run blocking line but the pass protection is also something of concern. The 22 sacks line is great but we had two Qb's who got the ball out quick and knew where to go. I'd also like to mention our WRs who were ready on hot routes and knew what to do. The offense looked a lot better but if we're wanting to make a playoff push bottom line is we're going to have to do better in our division. Protect the QB and get usa good foundation for our running game.

Oline in '08. Jamaal Lewis has fine speed for a 235 pound running back and we done have a 1,000 rusher on the roster so what are you talking about we need someone who is capable of accomplishing that. :specnatz: :gun:

threetoedpete
01-22-2008, 10:19 AM
If we don't get a LT in the draft, we can always wait until next year. Us Texans fans are used to it. It'll hell to try to fix all of our needs this year alone. Besides! I want a RB anyway (Stewart, most of all). A player we can be proud of at the end of the year for once besides DeMeco and Mario.

If we get one during the 2009 draft it'll be just in time for our deep playoff push, assuming we make the playoffs this upcoming year. ;)

Building a super o-line:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5473048.html

Everyone in the organization knows the Patriots' success, including the trip to Arizona to play the New York Giants in Super Bowl XLII, wouldn't be possible without the consistently outstanding performance by the offensive linemen.

Fearsome Fivesome
Tackles Matt Light and Nick Kaczur, guards Logan Mankins and Stephen Neal and center Dan Koppen form the best offensive line in the NFL — one that protects quarterback Tom Brady as if he were the president.

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/patriots.html

OLT, Matt Light: 2001 drafted 2.17
LG, Logan Mankins:2005 drafted 1.32
C, Dan Koppen: 2003 drafted 5.29
RG, Stephen Neal: FA 2001 *
RT, Nick Kaczuc: 2005 drafted 3.36

When something works, especialy after you've had several years of floundering at the same task you emulate the sucsess.

*Stephen Neal

http://nwe.scout.com/a.z?s=121&p=9&c=2&cid=720226&nid=2986868&fhn=1&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fnwe.scout.com%2fa.z%3fs% 3d121%26p%3d9%26c%3d
2%26cid%3d720226%26nid%3d2986868%26fhn%3d1

How Acquired: Signed by the Patriots as a free agent July 23, 2001. Waived by the team before the 2001 season where he spent time on the Philadelphia Eagles practice squad until the Patriots resigned him on December 12, 2001.

Scouting Report: Athletic player who knows how to get position. Uses experience from wrestling to gain leverage on opponents... works well in space able to pull and kick out block on screens or trap plays... not a dominating straight-ahead blocker has the ability to hold his position well... solid pass protector.

What stirkes me most about the Patriots overall draft since 2000 is how often they have missed on o-line guys. They do not trade for them nor do they sign them from other teams . They draft them. Stephen Neal is the lone FA starting in the SB.

The Texans never have drafted an o-lineman number One. The Patties make a habit out of it. Must be luck, huh ? Now tell me another one thunder kiss.

badboy
01-22-2008, 11:18 AM
Building a super o-line:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5473048.html



http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/patriots.html

OLT, Matt Light: 2001 drafted 2.17
LG, Logan Mankins:2005 drafted 1.32
C, Dan Koppen: 2003 drafted 5.29
RG, Stephen Neal: FA 2001 *
RT, Nick Kaczuc: 2005 drafted 3.36

When something works, especialy after you've had several years of floundering at the same task you emulate the sucsess.

*Stephen Neal

http://nwe.scout.com/a.z?s=121&p=9&c=2&cid=720226&nid=2986868&fhn=1&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fnwe.scout.com%2fa.z%3fs% 3d121%26p%3d9%26c%3d
2%26cid%3d720226%26nid%3d2986868%26fhn%3d1



What stirkes me most about the Patriots overall draft since 2000 is how often they have missed on o-line guys. They do not trade for them nor do they sign them from other teams . They draft them. Stephen Neal is the lone FA starting in the SB.

The Texans never have drafted an o-lineman number One. The Patties make a habit out of it. Must be luck, huh ? Now tell me another one thunder kiss.I think SMith GM has shown the ability to make excellent choices in lower rounds. His priority of when to fill a round may be different than ours. He might decide Stewart at # 18, Anthony Collins, Tony Hill in third and FS Demps in 4th. Oops that is how I would pick. Can we have two guys named Demps at FS? I go FS in 4th only if we can't re-sign our pro bowler.

76Texan
01-22-2008, 03:01 PM
This business about grading the O-lines is extremely complicated.
How they play together, the other parts on offense. The talents on the Ds, the D-lines, the defensive schemes they played against, the number of injuries on each team, etc.

I was about to get to McClain article, from which I think it's kinda ironic when there's no picture of the Center, #67 Dan Koppen, a second team all-pro, and an AFC pro-bowler.
Watching the game against the Chargers, I noticed Koppen flat on his back at least 3 times. His counterpart #61 of the Chargers, at least twice.
And that was without paying close attention and without reviewing the game.

And here we are, many fans have been complaining about Flanagan and McKinney on their plays. (Their age and health are different things and of concern entering next season.) I believe the criticism has been too harsh.

In all honesty, I haven't reviewed the last Texans' four games.
The rest I had spent at least 15 hours each (not to say that I have enough knowledge to decipher all the plays and break down each individual performances, only that I do try to learn.)

76Texan
01-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Building a super o-line:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5473048.html



http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/patriots.html

OLT, Matt Light: 2001 drafted 2.17
LG, Logan Mankins:2005 drafted 1.32
C, Dan Koppen: 2003 drafted 5.29
RG, Stephen Neal: FA 2001 *
RT, Nick Kaczuc: 2005 drafted 3.36

When something works, especialy after you've had several years of floundering at the same task you emulate the sucsess.

*Stephen Neal

http://nwe.scout.com/a.z?s=121&p=9&c=2&cid=720226&nid=2986868&fhn=1&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fnwe.scout.com%2fa.z%3fs% 3d121%26p%3d9%26c%3d
2%26cid%3d720226%26nid%3d2986868%26fhn%3d1



What stirkes me most about the Patriots overall draft since 2000 is how often they have missed on o-line guys. They do not trade for them nor do they sign them from other teams . They draft them. Stephen Neal is the lone FA starting in the SB.

The Texans never have drafted an o-lineman number One. The Patties make a habit out of it. Must be luck, huh ? Now tell me another one thunder kiss.

But really, the Pats' only high draft pick on the O-line since 2002 was Mankins at #32

Matt Light was drafted in 2001

Their guy in the #5 Koppen worked out, ours (Hodgdon hasn't).

Otherwise, we've had Pitts, Weary, Spencer, Winston.
If you look at where the two teams drafted, we've been paying attention to the O-line almost as much as they did.

We started out as an expansion team, so each mistake we made was magnified, is what I think.

andre'
01-22-2008, 03:15 PM
combination of mediocre talent at both

76Texan
01-22-2008, 03:17 PM
combination of mediocre talent at both

???

Can you clarify?
Thanks!

andre'
01-22-2008, 03:19 PM
???

Can you clarify?
Thanks!

I mean the O line is ok but nothing special, and so are the RBs. They need to draft of acquire more talented players there.

76Texan
01-22-2008, 03:22 PM
I mean the O line is ok but nothing special, and so are the RBs. They need to draft of acquire more talented players there.

On the Texans?

If so, yes agreed!

As a Pats fan, your input as to how you see each of them perform will be appreciated.

andre'
01-22-2008, 03:35 PM
On the Texans?

If so, yes agreed!

As a Pats fan, your input as to how you see each of them perform will be appreciated.

When I'm posting here it will be strictly as a texan fan. Just to clarify