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View Full Version : 4-3 Defense Please


mdfan
11-22-2004, 04:19 PM
We do not have the right guys for 3-4 defense, and how about Dave Wandstedt for defensive coordinator for next season. Chris Palmer never did like his skills or Dom Capers, to conservative, and people keep saying what Dom Capers did when he was in Jacksonville, that's past tense, what he did in the past is in the past, we talking now in the future, today. If what you're doing isn't winning games, try something different. You say we don't have the right personnel, you don't know what these playere can do until you try them out and see. If tha don't work fine something that will. I"m a season ticket holder and now considering selling my last three tickets, because this team isn't worth watching.

jr0ck
11-22-2004, 04:22 PM
please give us the starting defense in a 4-3, as well as back ups. and then compare that with the current personel in the 3-4. i think you might be enlightened....

SBTexans08
11-22-2004, 04:30 PM
We need Romeo Crennel or Bill Parcells down here, Dave Wandstedt (sp?) for defensive coordinator. Also, we need to $ee if we can acquire Al Saunders for O-coordinator. With that coaching staff.....baby, in no time we're in the promise land!

dan7
11-22-2004, 06:25 PM
We need Romeo Crennel or Bill Parcells down here, Dave Wandstedt (sp?) for defensive coordinator. Also, we need to $ee if we can acquire Al Saunders for O-coordinator. With that coaching staff.....baby, in no time we're in the promise land!

Of the four people you mentioned, the only one who could help this team would be Romeo Crennel...

Reddevil63
11-22-2004, 06:59 PM
Of the four people you mentioned, the only one who could help this team would be Romeo Crennel...
Unless the Texans do not win another game this year, Capers and Co. are going to be back next year. We are just now seeing that they are a problem, before it was diguised as an Expansion Team.

kuno
11-22-2004, 10:31 PM
I dont think Capers will switch to a 4-3. Regarless you cant do it in the middle of a season.

ColtSS
11-22-2004, 11:41 PM
The DC rob venturi something like that was here in indy with jim mora, that was why mora was fired in indy because he wouldn't fire the DC. You have to have great defensive players to play that system, we indy as you know, all of our money is in offense so it didn't work at all here.

El_DudeArino
11-23-2004, 02:38 AM
I"m a season ticket holder and now considering selling my last three tickets, because this team isn't worth watching.


Let me know, where do you sit??

Vinny
11-23-2004, 12:54 PM
I"m a season ticket holder and now considering selling my last three tickets, because this team isn't worth watching.The Cowboys play a 4-3 and are looking for fans. Take I-45 north. C-ya

El Tejano
11-23-2004, 12:59 PM
Once again, I have to refer to Vinny's advice on why our 3-4 isn't working. The LB play other than Sharper is not above average.

aj.
11-23-2004, 07:43 PM
I"m a season ticket holder and now considering selling my last three tickets, because this team isn't worth watchingDon't let the door hit ya in the @ss. Why wait? Sell now so some real Texans fans can sit in your seats for a change.

nunusguy
11-23-2004, 08:11 PM
I got my reservations about Capers, but the 3-4 he and his people installed
here in Houston is not one of them. Most teams don't use it, so thier's the element of opponents being unfamiliar with it. And it is (or should be), cheaper to staff than the 4-3.

ArlingtonTexan
11-23-2004, 10:15 PM
I got my reservations about Capers, but the 3-4 he and his people installed
here in Houston is not one of them. Most teams don't use it, so thier's the element of opponents being unfamiliar with it. And it is (or should be), cheaper to staff than the 4-3.

Maybe should be, but it is not in the case of the Texans

Grid
11-23-2004, 10:17 PM
thats cause we had to sign FAs. in the long run it will be cheaper because you need a different kind of personel. Tweeners at LB.. huge guys on the line.. you can get 3-4 stars in the 3rd or 4th round on a regular basis.

ArlingtonTexan
11-23-2004, 10:20 PM
I"m a season ticket holder and now considering selling my last three tickets, because this team isn't worth watching.

As many times as i have to return to area, i actually wish that I had not given up my seats. As for your basic notion concerning the defense, personal wise i would like to see more pure speed and quickness. The teams with the best records in the league run the 3-4, New england and pittsburg.

ArlingtonTexan
11-23-2004, 10:22 PM
thats cause we had to sign FAs. in the long run it will be cheaper because you need a different kind of personel. Tweeners at LB.. huge guys on the line.. you can get 3-4 stars in the 3rd or 4th round on a regular basis.

Think that notion is overrated...give me 2nd and i will dig up some facts.
Edit: starters 1st day picks
patriots 3 DL (1st): Lbs 1 (1st), 1 2nd, 1 3rd: DBs 1 (1st), 1 (2nd)

so the Patriots start 5 1st round picks, 2 2nd round pick, and 3rd round pick...the other 3 starts were obtain by signing from other clubs..Hardly a bargain basement 3-4.


Pittsburg seem closer the notion that your are trying to sell

Steelers 1 DL (1st): LB 1(2nd) , 1(3rd) : DBs 2 (1st), 1 (3rd)

Steeler start: 3 1st , 1 2nd, 2 3rds so 6 first day picks which is probably similiar to that of any 4-3 team.

infantrycak
11-23-2004, 11:20 PM
AT--part of the cheaper theory is that premier DE's for a 4-3 are much more expensive than both DT's and LB's. A 4-3 uses two of those DE's and while a 3-4 has two guys labeled DE's they would otherwise be DT's in a 4-3. Basically sacks rule the popularity contest so 4-3 DE's cost a premium. Hopefully we end up with as much talent (more closely related to draft place) but with a lower price.

nunusguy
11-24-2004, 08:06 AM
in the long run it will be cheaper because you need a different kind of personel. Tweeners at LB.. huge guys on the line.. you can get 3-4 stars in the 3rd or 4th round on a regular basis.
Yea, that's what I'm saying and if I had the initiative to do a little research I
think I'd find that the premeir 3-4s (NE, Pittsburg, etc.), are getting their LBs
in these lower rounds. And while I do confess to deriving a little enjoyment from antagonizing the Babin apologists, at some point they really should repent and admit we defeated one of the attractions of the 3-4 by using
such a high round pick for a position that could have been staffed with a
less pricey investment.

infantrycak
11-24-2004, 08:52 AM
at some point they really should repent and admit we defeated one of the attractions of the 3-4 by using
such a high round pick for a position that could have been staffed with a
less pricey investment.

Good 3-4 teams also use 1st round picks. Most of the savings comes in the different price range for the various players.

Look at the franchise numbers:
DE's $6.5 mil
DT's $5.6 mil
LB's $5.8 mil

So you really get to save on two folks just on position--one DE to LB, and one DE to a DT since the 3-4 uses 4-3 DT's all along the line. If you can also slip in some lower draft picks that is gravy.

ArlingtonTexan
11-24-2004, 09:17 AM
Good 3-4 teams also use 1st round picks. Most of the savings comes in the different price range for the various players.

Look at the franchise numbers:
DE's $6.5 mil
DT's $5.6 mil
LB's $5.8 mil

So you really get to save on two folks just on position--one DE to LB, and one DE to a DT since the 3-4 uses 4-3 DT's all along the line. If you can also slip in some lower draft picks that is gravy.

I would need AJ's numbers to back this, but because the Texans used FAs to fill their DL and LB positions, I am willing to bet that the team has one of the highest cost defenses in the league with results that don't match the cost.

For this cost theory to work, the texans would have to have a better record at drafting at all or draft better at those positions. Remember Texans are 0-4 in DL drafted, never drafted an ILB, 1st and 3rd OLB (that contribute), 1st round CB, 4th round Safety. There is a point where drafted players will need to replace the higher cost FAs that Texans need to use to field a team. Three years in, it would be unfair to draw too much a conclusion either way for the texans. At the moment the 3-4 is not cheaper. Whether it becomes so will depend on the success Casserly and co of identifying players in the next couple of drafts.

mdfan
11-24-2004, 09:39 AM
I read some of the threads about the 4-3 defense, I notice the words its cheaper to run a 3-4, we're not in the business for cheaper, it takes money to win, it takes money to gettop players. We're not looking for cheaper, we're looking for better. They are already saving money by not having real half time events like the first two seasons. Cheaper, cheaper, you want cheap players, that's saying that the Texans can go out and get high school players, because that's what the Texans play like. We need great pass rushers, taller, bigger, and faster corners to cover todays biggest receivers, we need a back who isn't afraid to hit the outside and run. Notice Domanick change his game after all those fumbles. We need receivers that will keep running until they are open, notice our receivers run their routes, and if they are not open they stop running. See the packers receivers kept running until they were open on those long completions Favre keep getting on 3rd and long.
Hey aj, I am a real fan I've had tickets since the first season, where are your tickets, so called real fan. Real fans handle their business and get tickets, instead reading forums trying to get tickets off a mad fan who spent hard earned money for this team. I have a right to be pissed, anytime a fan buy season tickets they want their money's worth. NOOOOOOOO you can't buy my tickets, you're not worthy. I sell to some one who have class and who can ask nicely.

Wolf
11-24-2004, 10:05 AM
we'd be in just as bad of shape with a 4-3 as we are with a 3-4 .. we have had 1 draft to build this defense. That is 1. You find me a team that used only 1 draft to build their entire defense.

Yes we could have gotten Jevon Kearse, Warren Sapp,etc,etd... and we'd see the same posts 2 years from now about how our team compared to the Panthers with the colapse of a defense.

infantrycak
11-24-2004, 10:07 AM
I would need AJ's numbers to back this, but because the Texans used FAs to fill their DL and LB positions, I am willing to bet that the team has one of the highest cost defenses in the league with results that don't match the cost.

AJ has had his cap sheet down for a while, but from a probably faulty memory:

Walker and Smith cost about $5 mil per year on average for their contracts. I don't remember Payne's current number, but would expect he will be resigned to a number somewhat under that in the off-season. Sharper is paid to the tune of about $5.5, Wong about $3.0 and Foreman around $1.8. Babin's contract averages about $1.5. Basically we have a fairly expensive DL due to having taken over cruddy Jags contracts in the expansion draft and having signed Walker (effectively) and Smith as free agents. The LB's really aren't expensive with the only player approaching a franchise number being Sharper--and his play matches his salary.

At the moment the 3-4 is not cheaper. Whether it becomes so will depend on the success Casserly and co of identifying players in the next couple of drafts.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. We have none of the highly priced DE's on the roster. With the exception of Sharper the LB's are moderately priced. To swith to a 4-3 we would end up needing two DE's (I don't really see Peek and Babin as full time down linemen--do you?)--one in place of a pretty cheap (maybe for a reason admittedly) Foreman and one in place of Payne. If we had gone 4-3 from the beginning, I suspect we would still have taken Payne and Walker. Don't remember if there were any decent DE's in the expansion draft.

Seems to me the results vs. cost are more a factor of not having had 6+ drafts to home grow players. Even having to build through the expansion draft and FA's though the 3-4 does look for cheaper positions.

infantrycak
11-24-2004, 10:16 AM
I read some of the threads about the 4-3 defense, I notice the words its cheaper to run a 3-4, we're not in the business for cheaper, it takes money to win, it takes money to gettop players. We're not looking for cheaper, we're looking for better.

You're completely missing the point of the cheaper comments. It has nothing to do with spending less money overall--the Texans and virtually all of the other teams get very close to spending the entire salary cap each year. It is that you can get top players and build a top defense such as Pittsburgh or New England with a total cost that is less than that of a 4-3 because (a) the position composition carries less market value (such as all three DL in a 3-4 would be DT's in a 4-3 and DT's get paid less than DE's) and (b) on occasion players that will excel in a 3-4 will fall in the draft because they are less attractive to the 4-3 majority of teams. In the end, getting a good defense and saving money, you have more money to spend for CB's, WR's, etc.

Hey aj, I am a real fan I've had tickets since the first season, where are your tickets, so called real fan. Real fans handle their business and get tickets, instead reading forums trying to get tickets off a mad fan who spent hard earned money for this team. I have a right to be pissed, anytime a fan buy season tickets they want their money's worth. NOOOOOOOO you can't buy my tickets, you're not worthy. I sell to some one who have class and who can ask nicely.

Picking a fight with the wrong person. AJ has been a Texans fan since they were announced and has had tickets since the 1st day they were available--not to mention he demonstrates his football knowledge rather than just his right to be pissed off. And IMO jumping ship after 2.5 seasons isn't much of a real fan.

aj.
11-24-2004, 12:11 PM
Hey aj, I am a real fan I've had tickets since the first season, where are your tickets, so called real fan My season tickets are located in Section 102. Thanks for asking.

ArlingtonTexan
11-24-2004, 03:50 PM
AJ has had his cap sheet down for a while, but from a probably faulty memory:

Walker and Smith cost about $5 mil per year on average for their contracts. I don't remember Payne's current number, but would expect he will be resigned to a number somewhat under that in the off-season. Sharper is paid to the tune of about $5.5, Wong about $3.0 and Foreman around $1.8. Babin's contract averages about $1.5. Basically we have a fairly expensive DL due to having taken over cruddy Jags contracts in the expansion draft and having signed Walker (effectively) and Smith as free agents. The LB's really aren't expensive with the only player approaching a franchise number being Sharper--and his play matches his salary.



Not sure how you come to that conclusion. We have none of the highly priced DE's on the roster. With the exception of Sharper the LB's are moderately priced. To swith to a 4-3 we would end up needing two DE's (I don't really see Peek and Babin as full time down linemen--do you?)--one in place of a pretty cheap (maybe for a reason admittedly) Foreman and one in place of Payne. If we had gone 4-3 from the beginning, I suspect we would still have taken Payne and Walker. Don't remember if there were any decent DE's in the expansion draft.

Seems to me the results vs. cost are more a factor of not having had 6+ drafts to home grow players. Even having to build through the expansion draft and FA's though the 3-4 does look for cheaper positions.

I have no problem with running the 3-4, just i don't think the costs are any cheaper than the 4-3...Payne's number is around 4 million...The Texans have about 14 million tied in its starting DL..that's moving pretty close to 18-20% of the cap for 3 positions. If your numbers are close on LBs that 12-3 million with DBs probably close to 10-12 million...37-40 milion or so for the starting defense about half of the cap 80 million. Honestly, i don't see where a conclusion could be made that the 3-4 is cheaper based on Houston(or New England for that matter, Pittsburg maybe)

The Texans have been excellent in the 1st round and pretty good at the top of the draft, but for the costs of running the 3-4 to be lower, the part of this theory that says teams can find 3-4 players later in the draft will need to pan out. After the 4th round, the texans have zero starters and only a couple of contributers (offense and defense both) in the 1st 3 years.

Your point about waiting for a few more years, I am in total agreement on, especially since as of this moment I could do the same type of analysis of the OL and come to similiar conclusion that it is overpaid based FA and draft positioning of the players starting.

infantrycak
11-24-2004, 05:25 PM
AT--other than CB's, DE's are the most expensive players on the defensive side of the ball--3-4's don't use them at all. Also, IMO it is not so much that you will find 5th+ round picks to be superstars but that you can take athletes later in the same round or 1-2 rounds lower than if their body type matched 4-3's better. Lower in the 1st round is still a tremendous savings--basically Robinson got twice the money Babin did. Overall looking at essentially getting rid of two DE's and replacing them with a DT and LB, and the fact that the LB's are a little different, possibly less desireable mold for 4-3's I see where the savings should come from--but it is an average or long term effect. Walker really needs to step his game to justify the money he is getting. Payne seems to be playing his way back to his former form. I don't have a problem with paying top DT money for all three guys so long as they perform.

ArlingtonTexan
11-24-2004, 06:58 PM
On the 4-3 DE for 3-4 OLB in actually these are the same player. DEs in the 4-3 are being paid money for their pass rushing skills which are essetially the major (not only) function of the 3-4 OLB...Jason Taylor, Freeny, KGB, the freak, would play 3-4 standup LB. The reason there are 3-4 OLB not making the same as DEs is not about position, but about the fact that none over the last 5 year has been as dominate pass rushers as the 4-3 rush ends. If Babin starts rolling off 12-14 sack years then he will get dominate pass rusher money.

Sunday look at Travis Laboy and Jason Babin...one plays DE and the other OLB..outside of that they are physically about the same size and speed and are judged largely by the sack and pressure numbers that they ring up.

mdfan
11-24-2004, 08:04 PM
I give up, I'm just frustrated.

ColtSS
09-12-2005, 12:11 PM
The DC was at the collts before coming their the 1st year, think he is still their, nick fanigo, something like that. You have to have great, I mean great D players to run that D and we never did. The teams that do run the 3-4 have great players and alot of them.

RocCityJag
09-12-2005, 12:31 PM
Defence is not something this team should be worried about. you held real well with the buffalo offence and there not to bad.

RocCityJag
09-12-2005, 12:32 PM
I give up, I'm just frustrated.



its week one for christ sakes

Blake
09-12-2005, 01:14 PM
its week one for christ sakes

So that makes it ok to have 120 yards of total offense? or 2.4 Yards per play?

Yes its week one, but that doesnt mean I will forget about this offensive performance.

And I have one more stat for you. -5 Thats our give/takeaway stat. I mean what is Capers for? Defense, and discipline. -5? That would give Bill Parcells' a heart attack.

I did see a couple of good points. Our D stepped up when they had their backs to the wall because of the offense. But there is still room for alot of improvment. Also our special team coverage was excellent yesterday.

LBC_Justin
09-12-2005, 01:51 PM
You people need to get off these forums and actually watch the games.

Other than our pass rush our defense is fine. It doesn't help that our offense turns the ball over 5 times and our defense is on the field 80% of the game.

Blake
09-12-2005, 02:29 PM
You people need to get off these forums and actually watch the games.

Other than our pass rush our defense is fine. It doesn't help that our offense turns the ball over 5 times and our defense is on the field 80% of the game.

Whom is that comment directed to?

TexansFan99
09-12-2005, 02:29 PM
Many teams are using the 3-4 defense..New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh, Oakland, in addition to Houston. Also Dallas, SF, Miami, and Cleveland are switching to it this year. I think more teams are using it because of the success the Patriots are having.
I don't think changing to 4-3 defense would help the Texans much.

Exascor
09-12-2005, 02:58 PM
its week one for christ sakesUmm...that post was from 2004. Silly Colts fan drug up a very old post.

LBC_Justin
09-12-2005, 06:54 PM
Whom is that comment directed to?
no one person,
but anyone who thinks our problem is the 3-4.

I could give a long list of our problems and the fact that we run a 3-4 defense is not one of them.


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