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View Full Version : Sage Rosenfels...3 starts...3 wins.


Dread-Head
12-13-2007, 10:17 PM
Okay, earlier this season I posted the Sage Rosenfels for President thread and you guys for the most part shouted me down. Against the Broncos, the man looked like a leader out there. Sage can take a hit and can get the ball to people other than André Johnson. I'm just saying is all... Now then gents, this is the part where you guys tell me I'm wrong so go ahead.
:doot:

Brandon420tx
12-13-2007, 10:19 PM
Houston, we have quarterback(s).

Grid
12-13-2007, 10:19 PM
So..obviously tonights performance..and his previous performances, and his 3-0 record this season...means that Sage is now a contender for the starting spot.

How do we make this decision? The "easy" choice is to just keep them both...it would be nice knowing that another guy can come in and we wont be at a disadvantage..but then there is the possibility of making a profit, getting some more picks, if we trade one of them.

The problem is..how do you decide? Schaub's weakness is his weakness..he is fragile. He has made mistakes but he is young, and new to starting.. and even though he screwed up at times, he also showed that he could be a really good QB for us.

But then Sage comes along and just plays superbly.. But can we give up on Schaub already? For a guy who has been in the league for 7 years as a backup and is pushing 30 years of age? Am I mistaken when I say that Sage has shown flashes in the past but never lived up to his potential when he was given the responsibility? I REALLY like how Sage has played..but I dont like the circumstances.. I feel like putting the franchise in his hands would be a HUGE risk.

My initial feeling is that we keep them both..Start Schaub and keep Sage ready..same as this year.

My risk-taking side says to use Sage as trade bait to get us a seasoned (but not too old) Olineman that can make an immediate improvement for us.

No part of me feels that keeping Sage and trading Schaub is a good idea.

That is my stance on our current QB controversy. I have a feeling this subject is gonna get old REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY quick once the offseason officially starts.

adam
12-13-2007, 10:21 PM
I'm sure there are some pseudo-logical reserved people on this board that are going to call me an ***** for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. There is a competition for the QB position in Houston, and Schaub is losing it.

Sage: 3-0
Schaub: 4-7

drewmar74
12-13-2007, 10:22 PM
Okay, earlier this season I posted the Sage Rosenfels for President thread and you guys for the most part shouted me down. Against the Broncos, the man looked like a leader out there. Sage can take a hit and can get the ball to people other than André Johnson. I'm just saying is all... Now then gents, this is the part where you guys tell me I'm wrong so go ahead.
:doot:

mmmmmm.... I got nothing. Sage has been playing pretty well of late and (even if Schaub could come back this season) I'd leave Sage in. He's got the hot hand, Schaub is dinged, so let Sage roll.

I tell you what, if we manage to keep Sage on the roster, its going to be an interesting summer watching he and Schaub duke it out.

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:23 PM
There is no controversy. Schaub is hurt and Sage is playing great in relief. I also think that calling Schaub fragile is like calling Adrian Peterson fragile. He got a concussion on a cheap shot and dislocated his shoulder on an odd fall.

brakos82
12-13-2007, 10:23 PM
You think we could play Schaub in the first half, Sage in the second? :user:

adam
12-13-2007, 10:24 PM
Here's the thing, however. With the lack of good QBs in the league and Sage's desire to play, do you honestly think he is going to settle for 2nd string after proving he is the real deal? He isn't getting any younger, I think he is done with the bench.

As of right now, though...I would sooner trade Schaub and see what Sage can do with a full set of starters.

buddyboy
12-13-2007, 10:24 PM
So far Rosenfels has been playing amazing the last few games, and has EARNED the right to compete with Schaub for the starting role next season in Training Camp. If he has another great game, I'm really going to start thinking that Rosenfels has a great shot at winning the starter position.

HOWEVER. I think it's unnecessary that you've been bashing people who haven't quite believed in Rosenfels yet. He's UNPROVEN, and been in the league for a while, and in that time, hasn't shown much at ALL. So forgive our hesitance in jumping on the bandwagon as quickly as you have. It'll still take a while for him to get recongnition from the fans, just like it took Mario to get his love. We'll see how the season pans out, but as it stands, Rosenfels really has proved that he deserves a shot at starting for us next season, but as I said...we'll see.

Malloy
12-13-2007, 10:24 PM
Been worried about the exact same thing. Really it's a luxury problem, but still. I hope we'll keep both of them and let the best pre-season qb start. I want to see a full season before I dare to make the choice between the two.

Props to Rosenfels tonight, but the entire team played their guts out. I'm very proud of their accomplishment tonight :)

drewmar74
12-13-2007, 10:25 PM
You think we could play Schaub in the first half, Sage in the second? :user:

Maybe have them alternate series..

:sarcasm:

junior
12-13-2007, 10:25 PM
You think we could play Schaub in the first half, Sage in the second? :user:

no but i believe $47 million could have been better spent. sage is as good as schaub point blank.

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:27 PM
Here's the thing, however. With the lack of good QBs in the league and Sage's desire to play, do you honestly think he is going to settle for 2nd string after proving he is the real deal? He isn't getting any younger, I think he is done with the bench.

As of right now, though...I would sooner trade Schaub and see what Sage can do with a full set of starters.

How many games has Schaub played without Andre? If we are trading anyone, it is going to be Sage.

TexanSam
12-13-2007, 10:27 PM
I don't think we'll trade Sage. Kubiak probably would like to have two reliable QBs on his roster and Schaub and Sage provide that.

Grid
12-13-2007, 10:28 PM
There is no controversy. Schaub is hurt and Sage is playing great in relief. I also think that calling Schaub fragile is like calling Adrian Peterson fragile. He got a concussion on a cheap shot and dislocated his shoulder on an odd fall.

This is true Tulexan..but it doesnt prove that Schaub isnt fragile. For example, look at the hit that Charlie Anderson laid on Cutler to knock him out of bounds tonight. I have my doubts that Schaub would have jumped up and ran back to the huddle the way that Cutler did.

Its true that Schaub got hit with a cheap shot, and had an awkward landing.. but i am not convinced that a "less fragile" QB wouldnt have been able to jump up from those hits and keep going without an issue.

run-david-run
12-13-2007, 10:28 PM
Here's the thing, however. With the lack of good QBs in the league and Sage's desire to play, do you honestly think he is going to settle for 2nd string after proving he is the real deal? He isn't getting any younger, I think he is done with the bench.

As of right now, though...I would sooner trade Schaub and see what Sage can do with a full set of starters.

I think that comment right there is why you have to keep Schaub. He was Pro-Bowl-esq with AJ and Green/Dayne in the lineup. Right now, Schaub is still the guy, in my opinion. Get a better LT and some more depth along the O-line, and hope to either resign Sage or get some draft picks for him.

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 10:28 PM
Dear Lord people. Enjoy a TEAM win with Mario breaking out on national TV. Schaub played excellent in some losses this year without weapons and did well for us. Sage has done well also and won the last 3. Considering his background in the league I'm not jumping on any controversies. Sage did a good job tonight but wasn't the ONE who won the game for us. Schaub has done the same. Enjoy the win without the b.s. The making mountains out of molehills gets old quick.

dtran04
12-13-2007, 10:30 PM
Yeah no kidding. Leave the bickering and chest thumping for after a LOSS at least. :)

adam
12-13-2007, 10:30 PM
How many games has Schaub played without Andre? If we are trading anyone, it is going to be Sage.

To give Schaub a free pass on a lot of questionable decisions and questionable arm strength because one wide receiver has been absent seems a little silly to me. I would like a QB who is capable of performing and doing his job adequately regardless of who is on the field.

NitroGSXR
12-13-2007, 10:31 PM
Rosenfels did not dazzle. Sorry but how can you guys say that? He barely completed 50% of his passes good for 200 yards tonight with an interception blemish. That's just a sub-par game anyway you look at it. How can you guys neglect our run game going on fire as a major factor to why Sage is winning. It's also easy to neglect Mario's performance as well as our secondary and contribute that to Sage's wins. We only turned the ball over once. Schaub couldn't stop Andre Davis from fumbling that ball in the Colts game. Schaub couldn't pave the way for Ron Dayne. Our line had to do that and it took time for them to start to REALLY come together. Schaub may not have been sacked too often but the guy was pretty much always on the run. He's awesome at getting rid of the ball quickly.

I love Sage Rosenfels but he's no Matt Schaub. I'm just really really happy to have Sage Rosenfels as our backup. Really am! I'd sleep a little easier if Schaub had the reins though. My heart goes into my throat everytime Rosenfels just hurls one downtown. You just don't know where the ball is going to land. Our receivers rock. Totally. They make Schaub AND Rosenfels look good!

TexanSam
12-13-2007, 10:32 PM
To give Schaub a free pass on a lot of questionable decisions and questionable arm strength because one wide receiver has been absent seems a little silly to me. I would like a QB who is capable of performing and doing his job adequately regardless of who is on the field.

I thought Schaub did that when we were missing AJ. Walter, Daniels, and Andre Davis played well with Schaub in there and AJ hurt. It's nice to have this problem though. Not many teams can say they have two good QBs on their roster...

OzzO
12-13-2007, 10:32 PM
It's a good thing to have quality depth, ain't it?

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:33 PM
Sage is doing all of this one year too late. If Carr got hurt last year like Schaub did this year he probably would've been the starter going into this year.

We aren't getting rid of Schaub just like the Bengals didn't try to trade Carson Palmer when John Kitna had a great season while Carson sat and learned.

Dread-Head
12-13-2007, 10:33 PM
I think it's unnecessary that you've been bashing people who haven't quite believed in Rosenfels yet. He's UNPROVEN, and been in the league for a while, and in that time, hasn't shown much at ALL. So forgive our hesitance in jumping on the bandwagon as quickly as you have. It'll still take a while for him to get recongnition from the fans, just like it took Mario to get his love. We'll see how the season pans out, but as it stands, Rosenfels really has proved that he deserves a shot at starting for us next season, but as I said...we'll see.


"Bashing?" When did I "bash" anyone? I merely stated my opinion. Let's look at the fact that Sage was a career backup just as our boy Schaub was a backup to a guy named Michael Vick for the bulk of his career. Schaub wasn't a starter until THIS season. For the record many of us had love for Mario and were saying "give him a chance" back when the "fair-weather" and "Bandwagon" fans were calling him a bust.

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:35 PM
To give Schaub a free pass on a lot of questionable decisions and questionable arm strength because one wide receiver has been absent seems a little silly to me. I would like a QB who is capable of performing and doing his job adequately regardless of who is on the field.

That one absent wide receiver opens the entire offense up. Schaub's questionable arm strength has also led to several long touchdown passes this year.

adam
12-13-2007, 10:37 PM
Sage is doing all of this one year too late. If Carr got hurt last year like Schaub did this year he probably would've been the starter going into this year.

We aren't getting rid of Schaub just like the Bengals didn't try to trade Carson Palmer when John Kitna had a great season while Carson sat and learned.

To compare Matt Schaub to Carson Palmer is a little much isn't it? Matt Schaub has a lot of problems to get worked out before he is going to be a fantastic NFL QB. Not to say that he'll never be great, but I simply believe that Rosenfels has done more for this team than Schaub has and I think it would be a shame to see Sage go (because he definitely deserves to be starting somewhere) because some bonehead in the FO doesn't want to accept the fact that we probably invested too much into Schaub.

drewmar74
12-13-2007, 10:38 PM
It's a good thing to have quality depth, ain't it?

AMEN!

And Mario kicking tail..... it's a great night!

GP
12-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Dear Lord people. Enjoy a TEAM win with Mario breaking out on national TV. Schaub played excellent in some losses this year without weapons and did well for us. Sage has done well also and won the last 3. Considering his background in the league I'm not jumping on any controversies. Sage did a good job tonight but wasn't the ONE who won the game for us. Schaub has done the same. Enjoy the win without the b.s. The making mountains out of molehills gets old quick.

Typical of someone who's on the losing end of the argument.

Nice try.

"Look over there! An eagle!"

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 10:40 PM
"Bashing?" When did I "bash" anyone? I merely stated my opinion. Let's look at the fact that Sage was a career backup just as our boy Schaub was a backup to a guy named Michael Vick for the bulk of his career. Schaub wasn't a starter until THIS season. For the record many of us had love for Mario and were saying "give him a chance" back when the "fair-weather" and "Bandwagon" fans were calling him a bust.

What is bandwagon is calling out fans week in and week out for not thinking YOUR way instead of being happy that we have depth and a win. I've never seen a fan base so obsessed with being "right." Many of us called for Carr's head for 3 years and got called "haters." We were right but it doesn't make us not like Sage or Schaub. I'm glad to have both and both have played well this year. I take success with a grain of salt. Its fleeting in this league and we have seen players and the team have some serious rollercoaster moments. What is bad is every week having to come here and not be happy for wins but to hear people say "I told you so" in every thread and then disappear when therir predictions fail.

Typical of someone who's on the losing end of the argument.

Nice try.

"Look over there! An eagle!"

How am I losing?My team just won a huge game. I'm a huge supporter of Sage and Schaub and glad we have them both. I'm not a supporter of fans like you that make every win or loss about your own agenda. You sound like a moron. Alot of us love Sage and wanted him playing last year. The difference is I have followed football for 30 years and don't root for players over a team. I'm happy for both. Its like me saying I think Beurlein should have been the QB when he won all those games when Aikman was hurt and they won a SB with Aikman.

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:40 PM
To compare Matt Schaub to Carson Palmer is a little much isn't it? Matt Schaub has a lot of problems to get worked out before he is going to be a fantastic NFL QB. Not to say that he'll never be great, but I simply believe that Rosenfels has done more for this team than Schaub has and I think it would be a shame to see Sage go (because he definitely deserves to be starting somewhere) because some bonehead in the FO doesn't want to accept the fact that we probably invested too much into Schaub.

From a money standpoint and the picks we gave up, no it's not much of a stretch to compare the two.

TexanSam
12-13-2007, 10:42 PM
Typical of someone who's on the losing end of the argument.

Nice try.

"Look over there! An eagle!"

I don't think he was picking a side on the argument...I think you're trying to spin it

GP
12-13-2007, 10:42 PM
It's a good thing to have quality depth, ain't it?

Uhhh...where have you been?

Sage is NOT going to stick around and play second fiddle next year.

He will get the nod from the Texans, or he will bolt for another team. He's been doing this gig long enough that he KNOWS he deserves more than being called "great depth."

LOL.

Sage is out of here. Texans management will let him walk, and we'll have The Human Ice Sculpture for our QB again. Bank on it.

GP
12-13-2007, 10:43 PM
I don't think he was picking a side on the argument...I think you're trying to spin it

Go read the game thread, and a few others, and come back and tell me I am spinning it.

He's been riding me and TexnRed pretty hard about it. Do your research.

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 10:47 PM
Go read the game thread, and a few others, and come back and tell me I am spinning it.

He's been riding me and TexnRed pretty hard about it. Do your research.

What are you talking about?I've been a supporter of Sage for 2 years now and because I think Schaub is quality I'm "riding" you?If you concentrated on us winning and not on your own agenda to be "right" you'd actually understand being a real fan. Is it your goal tonight to look totally like an bad fan?I made a comment in the Schaub thread because professional analyst see what alot of us see. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate Sage. Both guys are players and both guys have alot of work to do. Its a good problem to have. You don't have to make up stuff to belittle another player in order to be a fan of another.

tulexan
12-13-2007, 10:48 PM
There is absolutely no way the Texans would pick Sage over Schaub. Sage can either accept his role as being a backup or can demand to be traded. I'm sure there will be teams that will bite, but the Texans have their man with Schaub.

Dread-Head
12-13-2007, 10:51 PM
What is bandwagon is calling out fans week in and week out for not thinking YOUR way instead of being happy that we have depth and a win. I've never seen a fan base so obsessed with being "right." Many of us called for Carr's head for 3 years and got called "haters." We were right but it doesn't make it us not like Sage or Schaub. I'm glad to have both and both have played well this year. I take success with a gain of salt. Its fleeting in this league and we have seen players and the team have some srious rollercoaster moments. What is bad is every week having to come here an dnot be happy for wins but to hear people say "I told you so" in every thread and then disappear when therir predictions fail.



How am I losing?My team just won a huge game. I'm a huge supporter of Sage and Schaub and glad we have them both. I'm not a supporter of fans like you that make every win or loss about your own agenda. You sound like a moron. Alot of us love Sage and wanted him playing last year. The difference is I have followed football for 30 years and don't root for players over a team. I'm happy for both. Its like me saying I think Beurlein should have been the QB when he won all those games when Aikman was hurt and they won a SB with Aikman.


Hold on, hold on. As an admirer of the Great Henry "Fat Bank Hank" Kissenger I think I should clarify that I wasn't "attacking" anyone. I merely was attempting to bring up a point for discussion. I don't think that everyone should share my opinion because I'll be the first to admit that I've been wrong on quite a few occasions and if you don't believe me I can introduce you to a couple of my ex girlfriends who'll illustrate my point.
I'm happy the team is functioning as a unit. ALL I said was I thought Sage was better at taking a hit, AND looked like a real leader out there. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Chill out brougham...

GP
12-13-2007, 10:51 PM
The difference is I have followed football for 30 years and don't root for players over a team.

No, you're dishing out the sarcastic little one-liners and pointless gibberish that you call "a post" on this topic.

I see you know where the "sarcasm" smiley is at, because you use it liberally to deride those who say that Matt Schaub should not be this team's starter.

You remind me of me, a long time ago when I propped up David Carr and shouted down the few posters around here who were saying what I am saying now: "The starter who was crowned, in this case Schaub, has not lived up to the expectation." I rode the Carr train all the way to the end, and then it was like I woke up from my stupor..."Wow. He wasn't that good. Oops. I was wrong."

In my posts, I go on to state WHY Matt Schaub is not a quality starter (see my THREE POINTS comments in the myriad of other posts on this topic) and you don't reply to those comments. You just shout it down with your "bandwagon fan" or any other of your endless list of pathetic character assassination hits on me, in order to avoid the arena of ideas.

Congratulations, you've been following football for 30 years. I've been following it for 25. And I still say that Matt Schaub needs no more snaps for me to know that he's not the answer here.

OzzO
12-13-2007, 10:54 PM
Uhhh...where have you been?

Sage is NOT going to stick around and play second fiddle next year.

...

I've been here. And he stuck around Miami for 4 years as 2nd fiddle.

Not saying he should or shouldn't be backup - but is there a possible reason he has been for the 6 years he's been in the nfl?

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 10:56 PM
Hold on, hold on. As an admirer of the Great Henry "Fat Bank Hank" Kissenger I think I should clarify that I wasn't "attacking" anyone. I merely was attempting to bring up a point for discussion. I don't think that everyone should share my opinion because I'll be the first to admit that I've been wrong on quite a few occasions and if you don't believe me I can introduce you to a couple of my ex girlfriends who'll illustrate my point.
I'm happy the team is functioning as a unit. ALL I said was I thought Sage was better at taking a hit, AND looked like a real leader out there. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Chill out brougham...

And I like your opinion and agree. Nice words. What I don't agree with is GP and others who have run around for two weeks degrading Schaub and talking like Sage is the second coming. Aren't we happy to have wins without the b.s after dealing with Carr for 5 years?Why is everything about individuals. If you look at the stats both guys are playing the same and yet people can't be happy about a season going well.

MEGA SWATT
12-13-2007, 10:58 PM
Sage is a durable bad azz
Matt is a fragile bad azz
:fans:

GP
12-13-2007, 10:58 PM
What are you talking about?I've been a supporter of Sage for 2 years now and because I think Schaub is quality I'm "riding" you?If you concentrated on us winning and not on your own agenda to be "right" you'd actually understand being a real fan. Is it your goal tonight to look totally like an bad fan?I made a comment in the Schaub thread because professional analyst see what alot of us see. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate Sage. Both guys are players and both guys have alot of work to do. Its a good problem to have. You don't have to make up stuff to belittle another player in order to be a fan of another.

No, no, no, no, no.

I AM concentrating on winning...which is exactly why I am quick to assess that Matt Schaub is a smarter, but vastly more fragile, version of David Carr. Where Schaub ends, Sage begins.

Had David Carr been out more, and Sage forced to start the same amount of games he's been starting lately, I wonder if we make the Schaub deal at all. Think on THAT one.

I love to win. And it's why I enjoy rooting for Sage Rosenfels--Because he is winning ballgames. In fact, he's almost willing us to win ballgames even when we seem to be out of them.

I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)

tulexan
12-13-2007, 11:00 PM
No, no, no, no, no.

I AM concentrating on winning...which is exactly why I am quick to assess that Matt Schaub is a smarter, but vastly more fragile, version of David Carr. Where Schaub ends, Sage begins.

Had David Carr been out more, and Sage forced to start the same amount of games he's been starting lately, I wonder if we make the Schaub deal at all. Think on THAT one.

I love to win. And it's why I enjoy rooting for Sage Rosenfels--Because he is winning ballgames. In fact, he's almost willing us to win ballgames even when we seem to be out of them.

I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)

The only comparison between Schaub and Carr is that they are both #8 for the Texans. That is where it ends.

GP
12-13-2007, 11:02 PM
I've been here. And he stuck around Miami for 4 years as 2nd fiddle.

Not saying he should or shouldn't be backup - but is there a possible reason he has been for the 6 years he's been in the nfl?

Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 11:03 PM
No, you're dishing out the sarcastic little one-liners and pointless gibberish that you call "a post" on this topic.

I see you know where the "sarcasm" smiley is at, because you use it liberally to deride those who say that Matt Schaub should not be this team's starter.

You remind me of me, a long time ago when I propped up David Carr and shouted down the few posters around here who were saying what I am saying now: "The starter who was crowned, in this case Schaub, has not lived up to the expectation." I rode the Carr train all the way to the end, and then it was like I woke up from my stupor..."Wow. He wasn't that good. Oops. I was wrong."

In my posts, I go on to state WHY Matt Schaub is not a quality starter (see my THREE POINTS comments in the myriad of other posts on this topic) and you don't reply to those comments. You just shout it down with your "bandwagon fan" or any other of your endless list of pathetic character assassination hits on me, in order to avoid the arena of ideas.

Congratulations, you've been following football for 30 years. I've been following it for 25. And I still say that Matt Schaub needs no more snaps for me to know that he's not the answer here.

What are you talking about?Seriously. I can see that you were probably one of the people yelling at me when I told you Carr was no good for 3 years. Wouldn't it make more sense that since I was right about him that I may be right about Schaub and being happy with two guys who can win for us?So you screamed for 5 years about Carr, were wrong and now you are screaming about Schaub being bad and a 6 year guy who has never started being "the man" and you think all of a sudden you are right?

I've gone through all of the two guys stats with TexanRed and even went game by game with him thorugh Schaub's starts. Go look it up. They both have similar stats and both have had turnover problems. Schaub impressed me and again, he has impressed many who have watched him. I, unlike you though, don't care much for arguing over guys who are good while we are winning. Maybe Sage is your new Carr. If that is the case watch out. You just admitted you went off on people for years doing the same thing you are doing now. Does that make sense?

I had every belief that Sage would do what he did tonight. But when I watched Schaub earlier this season, I actually began to look for the blitzer (before the snap) and I actually was seeing Schaub getting pounded before it happened. I just knew he was dead meat.

Like I have said: Sage is running rings around Matt Schaub.

But, like it's been said: "Schaub is the starter..."

(Sigh)

Then how did our sack totals go down this year if Schaub was so bad in the pocket and was getting hit? Let me quaote something from the ESPN article today

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3142771

Pocket awareness separates Schaub from most quarterbacks. His predecessor, David Carr, took 41sacks in 16 starts for Houston last season. Schaub took 16 in his first 11 starts this season.

"Get a running game with him and he's going to be tough," the NFC scout said.

Through all of this you keep missing the point. Sage is good and I like him. I just think Schaub will be our starter and has more upside. Overall it is great to have both. You are barking around the board starting fights over a problem we don't have.

Hervoyel
12-13-2007, 11:06 PM
No, you're dishing out the sarcastic little one-liners and pointless gibberish that you call "a post" on this topic.

I see you know where the "sarcasm" smiley is at, because you use it liberally to deride those who say that Matt Schaub should not be this team's starter.

You remind me of me, a long time ago when I propped up David Carr and shouted down the few posters around here who were saying what I am saying now: "The starter who was crowned, in this case Schaub, has not lived up to the expectation." I rode the Carr train all the way to the end, and then it was like I woke up from my stupor..."Wow. He wasn't that good. Oops. I was wrong."

In my posts, I go on to state WHY Matt Schaub is not a quality starter (see my THREE POINTS comments in the myriad of other posts on this topic) and you don't reply to those comments. You just shout it down with your "bandwagon fan" or any other of your endless list of pathetic character assassination hits on me, in order to avoid the arena of ideas.

Congratulations, you've been following football for 30 years. I've been following it for 25. And I still say that Matt Schaub needs no more snaps for me to know that he's not the answer here.


You're like that former smoker who quit and now spends all his time running around getting in other peoples faces about it. Frankly I find it kind of obnoxious. Every thread you're in here banging that drum like you discovered Rosenfels and are hoping to manage him. The guy has won three starts and looked mostly pretty good doing it. He's a gamer and a classic under-appreciated quarterback. Great, good for him. Schaub has played less than a season and mostly looked pretty good doing it. That this year didn't go according to plan is an understatement to say the least and with zero running game through most of the Schaub starts thanks to Ahman Green and his amazing "Now you see it - Now you don't" knee bruise I don't just think you don't have enough information to go on. I know it.

Gary Kubiak will play Rosenfels till the end of the year in all likelyhood. Sage will have a chance to beat the Colts and Jaguars and he'll probably have an opportunity to compete for the starting job in camp. If he wins it I'll be fine with that. If he doesn't I'll be fine with that but I fully expect to see you banging that drum again at the first incomplete pass of the 2008 season. After the last two years of "Texans History" I recognize a zealot when I see one.

GP
12-13-2007, 11:12 PM
The only comparison between Schaub and Carr is that they are both #8 for the Texans. That is where it ends.

Well, I think they are similar yet different:

Carr: Durable and tough; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Cannot read a defense

Schaub: Fragile; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Can read a defense

And then there's Sage: Seems to be durable; Looks like an accountant and doesn't have a QB-sounding name or presence about him; Has been holding a clipboard for a long time; Can read a defense.

I really don't like bragging. Seriously, I don't. But I cannot stand it when I see some posters INTENTIONALLY ignoring things and acting like it's no big deal. Winning is everything, and Sage is winning. So if a fan is all about winning, I'd suggest sitting back for a second and re-evaluating the Matt Schaub situation.

Even if Matt Schaub is healthy, I don't see how he just gets the job back. IMO, you always go with the hot hand. Always. Wins are hard to come by, and Sage is just playing out-of-his mind.

The media are saying "Get Schaub a running game and he'd be tough..." but I just can't shake the feeling I get when I think "Get Sage a running game and he'd be tough."

This is all for naught. Sage is leaving for starting money somewhere. So a lot of Schaub fans can have their crowned hero back next season. I just want to win games, but I see it differently: I see a backup running circles around the starter...and it frustrates me to no end that the starter is always the starter, no matter what.

To heck with that. I like winning, and Sage is winning...and he's smiling and walking upright after those wins, too. I don't have a death wish on Schaub, but it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to see that Matt Schaub is (for some reason) unable to make it through games. And Sage is. Even when healthy, it's only a matter of time before Schaub is going to get steamrolled again.

If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.

GP
12-13-2007, 11:24 PM
You're like that former smoker who quit and now spends all his time running around getting in other peoples faces about it. Frankly I find it kind of obnoxious. Every thread you're in here banging that drum like you discovered Rosenfels and are hoping to manage him. The guy has won three starts and looked mostly pretty good doing it. He's a gamer and a classic under-appreciated quarterback. Great, good for him. Schaub has played less than a season and mostly looked pretty good doing it. That this year didn't go according to plan is an understatement to say the least and with zero running game through most of the Schaub starts thanks to Ahman Green and his amazing "Now you see it - Now you don't" knee bruise I don't just think you don't have enough information to go on. I know it.

Gary Kubiak will play Rosenfels till the end of the year in all likelyhood. Sage will have a chance to beat the Colts and Jaguars and he'll probably have an opportunity to compete for the starting job in camp. If he wins it I'll be fine with that. If he doesn't I'll be fine with that but I fully expect to see you banging that drum again at the first incomplete pass of the 2008 season. After the last two years of "Texans History" I recognize a zealot when I see one.

Call me a zealot all you want.

But I have bolded a part of your comment (above) and I'd like to go ahead and say that it'd be a minor miracle if Sage makes it to camp as a Texans player.

The guy has shown that he should be the starter for the team he is on. I would think that a guy like Sage, who has been thoroughly trashed with all the "journeyman" comments and the lack of support and faith by most fans for the past few years, is going to look to cash in on the good fortune he;s enjoying this season.

In the NFL, you don't "stay put" unless you "get paid." Please tell me how I am wrong on this idea. A smart guy (like Sage) will force the situation and make Houston pony up the cash for him--no more backup, in other words--or he'll leverage his effort this year and go on to a team like the Chicago Bears who would love to have a QB like Sage on their team.

You don't think Chicago would dump those three clowns they have right now for a guy like Sage who is picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?

Sage looks great. And a lot of posters continue as if Matt Schaub is set to come back and regain the form he had for HIS three games (Chiefs, Panthers, and Saints). Schaub looked awful vs. Miami...wasn't Kris Brown the one who had to win the Dolphins game for us with all his field goals?

That, coupled with the long rest before his Saints game and then the drop-off game vs. the Titans, tells me that Matt is not a distance runner. For whatever reason, he looks good for a short burst and then he tends to trickle down to a crawl.

This is amazing. I cannot believe that you guys don't see this about Matt Schaub.

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 11:25 PM
Well, I think they are similar yet different:

Carr: Durable and tough; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Cannot read a defense

Schaub: Fragile; Looks like a QB; Practices well; Can read a defense

And then there's Sage: Seems to be durable; Looks like an accountant and doesn't have a QB-sounding name or presence about him; Has been holding a clipboard for a long time; Can read a defense.

I really don't like bragging. Seriously, I don't. But I cannot stand it when I see some posters INTENTIONALLY ignoring things and acting like it's no big deal. Winning is everything, and Sage is winning. So if a fan is all about winning, I'd suggest sitting back for a second and re-evaluating the Matt Schaub situation.

Even if Matt Schaub is healthy, I don't see how he just gets the job back. IMO, you always go with the hot hand. Always. Wins are hard to come by, and Sage is just playing out-of-his mind.

The media are saying "Get Schaub a running game and he'd be tough..." but I just can't shake the feeling I get when I think "Get Sage a running game and he'd be tough."

This is all for naught. Sage is leaving for starting money somewhere. So a lot of Schaub fans can have their crowned hero back next season. I just want to win games, but I see it differently: I see a backup running circles around the starter...and it frustrates me to no end that the starter is always the starter, no matter what.

To heck with that. I like winning, and Sage is winning...and he's smiling and walking upright after those wins, too. I don't have a death wish on Schaub, but it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to see that Matt Schaub is (for some reason) unable to make it through games. And Sage is. Even when healthy, it's only a matter of time before Schaub is going to get steamrolled again.

If that makes me a bad fan, then I'm a bad fan.

This is where you just get obnoxious. No one is calling Schaub a crowned hero. People like his demeanor and play. People like Sages demeanor and play. The difference between you and I is that I can see the forest through the trees and like both guys but don't think there is anything wrong with Schaub if you go back and look at his play game by game. Your goal is to discredit and be right....probably like you did with Carr. Sorry but if we are going on track records here then you are the Steven A. Smith of this place and are just screaming about guys to nobody. Sorry if I don't just trust your opinion after your admissions above.

HoustonFrog
12-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Call me a zealot all you want.

But I have bolded a part of your comment (above) and I'd like to go ahead and say that it'd be a minor miracle if Sage makes it to camp as a Texans player.

The guy has shown that he should be the starter for the team he is on. I would think that a guy like Sage, who has been thoroughly trashed with all the "journeyman" comments and the lack of support and faith by most fans for the past few years, is going to look to cash in on the good fortune he;s enjoying this season.

In the NFL, you don't "stay put" unless you "get paid." Please tell me how I am wrong on this idea. A smart guy (like Sage) will force the situation and make Houston pony up the cash for him--no more backup, in other words--or he'll leverage his effort this year and go on to a team like the Chicago Bears who would love to have a QB like Sage on their team.

You don't think Chicago would dump those three clowns they have right now for a guy like Sage who is picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?

Sage looks great. And a lot of posters continue as if Matt Schaub is set to come back and regain the form he had for HIS three games (Chiefs, Panthers, and Saints). Schaub looked awful vs. Miami...wasn't Kris Brown the one who had to win the Dolphins game for us with all his field goals?

That, coupled with the long rest before his Saints game and then the drop-off game vs. the Titans, tells me that Matt is not a distance runner. For whatever reason, he looks good for a short burst and then he tends to trickle down to a crawl.

This is amazing. I cannot believe that you guys don't see this about Matt Schaub.

How can anyone take you seriously when you completely leave out the part of of Sage coming in and basically making the Titans game almost a Titan rout with his turnovers BEFORE bringing us back. You can't have one without the other and you are selectively picking games and times without acknowledging others. I mean you just called a 16 of 27 with 200 yards and 1 TD pass and 1 int "picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?" How can anyone take you seriously?Go look at Schaubs stats and that is a game line, if not better for many games. You are a walking hyperbole and I'm starting to see why talking to "Carr fan" was such an adventure.

hollywood_texan
12-13-2007, 11:35 PM
As Mr. Wolf said on Pulp Fiction, "Let's not start sucking each others..."

You get the point.

There are couple more games to play and let's see what happens.

If there is value, maybe get value for him and he gets another chance to start?

Maybe Rosenfels is a product of the system and Kubiak's coaching?

Unloading Rosenfels may not be as a bad as everyone thinks if Kubiak is as good as a QB coach some people think.

Good opportunity to leverage value to improve the team. Kind of like when Shanahan traded Portis for Bailey. Every one thought he was crazy for doing that.

GP
12-13-2007, 11:40 PM
This is where you just get obnoxious. No one is calling Schaub a crowned hero. People like his demeanor and play. People like Sages demeanor and play. The difference between you and I is that I can see the forest through the trees and like both guys but don't think there is anything wrong with Schaub if you go back and look at his play game by game. Your goal is to discredit and be right....probably like you did with Carr. Sorry but if we are going on track records here then you are the Steven A. Smith of this place and are just screaming about guys to nobody. Sorry if I don't just trust your opinion after your admissions above.

So where is your analysis? Where are YOUR points?

Here's mine:

1. Schaub is fragile. Case closed. I'm not saying he is a bad guy, I am saying that his hit-to-bench ratio is STEEP.

2. He is eerily slow getting away from center, which is causing him to get pancaked by defenders who are getting to him easier than they are getting to Sage. I saw Sage get pressure tonight, and he just kinda' casually pounced forward and flung the ball for a completion to AJ, which would have had different results from Schaub because Schaub would not have even have been all the way back into his stance yet.

3. I saw Sage escape the tackle box and throw it away when we were near the goal line tonight. Schaub is trying to force it, and he's getting hammered...and usually losing the ball while he's at it, or taking us out of realistic TD scoring opportunity. Schaub's ability to know that there's defenders gaining on him, as he escapes the tackle box, is not looking good (IMO).

4. A new revelation I had tonight comes off something Hervoyel mentioned, which I responded to with this: Schaub is not a distance runner. He looks good for short bursts, and then he seems to trickle down to a crawl. His pace slows, his footwork (IMO) gets slower and choppier, making it easier for defenders to get to him. Let's look at this: 1. Chiefs game he looked AWESOME, I admit it. Panthers game he looked a little gassed, IMO, and yet he managed to bring us back from a deficit for the win. The next few games were losses (correct?) and then we win the Miami game...but how did he look? To me, he looked "off." And I think Kris Brown had lots of field goals off of stalled drives, having to win that game for us. Schaub gets knocked out of the Chargers game, once again not looking out for himself or not paying attention to the fact that there are angry men trying to level him for whatever reason, and he comes back to the game looking like the QB he appeared to be during the first game of the season vs. the Chiefs. Then, he exits the Titans game early. Same story, different opponent.

Please tell me, based on the 11 games that Matt Schaub has started vs. the 3 games that Sage has started, HOW and WHY Matt Schaub is a better QB than Sage.

Right now, I just see a lot of people calling me "obnoxious" and yet there's no in-depth ideas coming my way from you guys.

GP
12-13-2007, 11:47 PM
How can anyone take you seriously when you completely leave out the part of of Sage coming in and basically making the Titans game almost a Titan rout with his turnovers BEFORE bringing us back. You can't have one without the other and you are selectively picking games and times without acknowledging others. I mean you just called a 16 of 27 with 200 yards and 1 TD pass and 1 int "picking apart defenses, making Champ Bailey look like a clown?" How can anyone take you seriously?Go look at Schaubs stats and that is a game line, if not better for many games. You are a wakking hyperbole and I'm starting to see why talking to "Carr fan" was such an adventure.

Our defense is not matching up well with this year's Titans offense, which is completely beyond logic and reasoning. Even I don't understand why we cannot stop the Titans. They are getting hosed by all their other opponents...I mean, even the Bengals made them look silly for crying out loud.

Sage did turn the ball over a lot, but let's also not look past the idea that Sage was JUST THEN coming out as the full time guy. I personally believe that it takes a little time (not too long, though) for the oline and the WRs/RBs/TEs to get in "sync" with another QB who just jumps in there suddenly.

This is why, as the full time guy, Sage seems to have this offense clicking. There's not a deal of yanking him out of the lineup because Schaub's ready to go. The o is practicing with Sage, full time, and they have built something over the past 3 or 4 weeks. There's a real chemistry there, IMO.

I honestly do not know why the Titans have our number this year. By all accounts, we should be hammering them. I don;t know if it's the VY thing that has Richard Smith scared and not being aggressive enough to shut them down, but I saw a lot of big time passes completed against us by VY who is not a good passer the rest of the year.

Leahmic223
12-13-2007, 11:55 PM
I'd keep Schaub hands down if I have to choose.

Simply because he is younger he still has a lot of learning to do. With Sage you are pretty much getting what you see, with Matt he still has a 7+ yr carreer ahead of him if we get him a solid LT that isn't going to get his career shortened.

IMO the offense looks about the same with Schaub in there except he makes some key mistakes. But also he has played what 3 games with Andre Johnson? Still with Andre out and Schaub in there our passing game was ranked like 6th in the NFL and that is without Andre, and then there were games where we were real thin at WR and still he found open guys.

Schaub is the guy IMO, Sage is a good QB though. I'd be happy for him if he goes elsewhere to play, he deserves to start somewhere, we are just going to have to find another solid backup is all. But I feel Schaub when healthy is our best option.

Dan B.
12-14-2007, 12:00 AM
Schaub vs MIA (when he was "off")

20/34 (58.8%) 294 YDS 0TD 1INT

Sage vs DEN (when he was decimating Champ Bailey etc. etc.)
16/27 (59.3%) 200 YDS 1TD 1INT

And Matt did that without Andre.

So I ask you, what has Sage done that shows he personally is that much better? And don't just say "he wins." That's a Vincophile excuse. Teams can win because of their QB, regardless of their QB, or in spite of their QB. A TEAM"S WON LOSS RECORD IS NOT DEPENDANT ON ONE PLAYER That's why when you look at QB statistics on nfl.com they don't even list the quarterback's W/L record. It is irrelevant when gauging a QB's play.

The quarterbacks have virtually identical TD/TO ratios, QB ratings, completion percentage... basically every statistic one uses to gauge QB play has these two dead even. So why exactly is Sage clearly that much better?

GP
12-14-2007, 12:01 AM
To compare Matt Schaub to Carson Palmer is a little much isn't it? Matt Schaub has a lot of problems to get worked out before he is going to be a fantastic NFL QB. Not to say that he'll never be great, but I simply believe that Rosenfels has done more for this team than Schaub has and I think it would be a shame to see Sage go (because he definitely deserves to be starting somewhere) because some bonehead in the FO doesn't want to accept the fact that we probably invested too much into Schaub.

I think this also includes some fans who also don't want to face the music on this issue, as well.

It't so much more convenient to support the incumbent rather than to climb out on a limb and say something different.

This is exactly what it boils down to: Admitting that we blew two 2nd round picks and made a big hullabaloo about a backup (Schaub) when we probably had our own backup (Sage) all along who could have led this team.

Which is why sooooo many posters here got their panties in a wad when Haynesworth made the comments about Schaub/Sage last game between us. I didn't rag Haynesworth for it because, while it WAS tasteless for him to say it, you have to tip your hat to him for having the guts to say what's only proving to become the truth: We took a risk and it didn't work.

That's the ballgame, though. Risks don't always pay off.

I just hope we make it clear to Sage and Schaub that they will battle it out in camp for the starting role. Anything less would be uncivilized.

Hooston Texan
12-14-2007, 12:08 AM
Let's break down wins and losses a little more finely here:

I see Schaub as 4-6: the wins coming over KC, Carolina, Miami and NO. The losses being Indy, Atlanta, Jacksonville, the first Tennessee game, San Diego and Cleveland. I'm not giving him the loss in the second Titan game because we were tied when he went out (sort of akin to a pitcher). Sage took the field with the game tied, and we lost it.

But let's break this down a little further: with Andre Johnson, Schaub is 3-1. Without him, he went 1-5. We're just not a good team without AJ--and a running game.

Schaub will improve--in his first year as a (split-time) starter in college, he went 0-5. The next year, he was the ACC player of the year over Philip Rivers (well, beating out Rivers was more impressive in 2002 than it is now, admittedly).

The fact of the matter is that the team is now making huge strides. The two west coast games saw the emergence of a defense and a running game. Sage is a good QB who is certainly not inhibiting that progress, and we're very lucky to have him. But I'm pretty sure I've seen more Schaub passes than anyone on this board (unless someone else here is also a Wahoo), and I have complete faith that he is our guy. Of course, that kind of "pulling rank" won't satisfy anyone on this board.

As for Schaub's penchant for taking big hits--recall the first TD pass he threw against Carolina. Got absolutely walloped but got a nice pass out to AJ down the field that he turned into a TD. That's the kind of plays he makes. What that means is that we'll need a solid backup for him, and I'm thrilled we have Sage to fill that role.

[Edit because I forgot the bottom line] BOTTOM LINE: The above notwithstanding, I think a healthy Sage should start while Schaub is hurt/hurting these last few games, especially given the run the team is on. No sense in messing with success. But the Texans have too much invested in Matt not to presume that he is the starter for 2008--provided, of course, Sage doesn't clearly beat him out in the preseason.

GP
12-14-2007, 12:17 AM
Schaub vs MIA (when he was "off")

20/34 (58.8%) 294 YDS 0TD 1INT

Sage vs DEN (when he was decimating Champ Bailey etc. etc.)
16/27 (59.3%) 200 YDS 1TD 1INT

And Matt did that without Andre.

So I ask you, what has Sage done that shows he personally is that much better? And don't just say "he wins." That's a Vincophile excuse. Teams can win because of their QB, regardless of their QB, or in spite of their QB. A TEAM"S WON LOSS RECORD IS NOT DEPENDANT ON ONE PLAYER That's why when you look at QB statistics on nfl.com they don't even list the quarterback's W/L record. It is irrelevant when gauging a QB's play.

The quarterbacks have virtually identical TD/TO ratios, QB ratings, completion percentage... basically every statistic one uses to gauge QB play has these two dead even. So why exactly is Sage clearly that much better?

Well, I think Kris Brown was kickig long field goals all day because drives were stalling just past mid-field.

But I recall Sage leading us down to the goal line a lot tonight. Somebody has to get the team down there, and someone has to be "clutch" and not piss away the chance at a TD.

Sage was efficient. Had Denver not sustained long drives all night, mostly via Bradon Marshall on nice gains at crucial moments to sustains a drive, the score might have been even more lopsided.

Look, I am less of a stat guy...and I'm more of a perception guy. I see this offense, and its role players, looking a lot more in rhythm and operating at a better pace than I did with Schaub as the starter. I also see a defense who is pinning its ears back and making BIG PLAYS, which CAN be attributed to having Demps and Bennett coming along nicely, but has also got to be partly due to a Texans offense scoring points and allowing the defense to take chances more.

Simply put, I just feel that outside of the Chiefs game and the Saints game, Schaub has not exactly looked like a world champ (to me). I have said that it might be due to him being a first-year starter who is perhaps a little under-developed (especially pertaining to physical fitness and endurance) but yet I see a few other things that are more of just part of Schaub's style, which I don't see getting better all of a sudden.

Grid
12-14-2007, 12:33 AM
It has nothing to do with "supporting the incumbent instead of climbing out on a limb" and everything to do with not being hotheaded and jumping to conclusions.

Sage has been in the league 7 years and has never been elevated above the role of backup. He has looked "good" but you are ready to throw out a young QB who has also looked good so that we can start an old QB who has never looked good until now, and has made just as many, if not more, mistakes as the younger QB.

Why? Because he has 3 wins. His stats are not amazing, his physical abilities are not amazing, and his wins have been nice, but not incredible.. the only thing Sage has that Schaub doesnt is a lack of losses and a clean bill of health. You could have said the same about Young last year for the Titans and that doesnt seem to be panning out too well for them this year, does it?

I am willing to discuss and consider the possibilities of what we can do with Sage, but to sit here and act like we have just discovered a gold mine and Schaub is no longer needed... that is just stupid.

Please..for the love of god.. open your eyes and consider all the facts. Quit trying to win the argument and start thinking about what is best for the team.

I honestly think you are more interested in establishing yourself as a Sage lover, so that you can say "I LOVED HIM FIRST!" if he becomes a superstar for us, than you are in doing what is best for the team.

GP
12-14-2007, 12:47 AM
It has nothing to do with "supporting the incumbent instead of climbing out on a limb" and everything to do with not being hotheaded and jumping to conclusions.

Sage has been in the league 7 years and has never been elevated above the role of backup. He has looked "good" but you are ready to throw out a young QB who has also looked good so that we can start an old QB who has never looked good until now, and has made just as many, if not more, mistakes as the younger QB.

Why? Because he has 3 wins. His stats are not amazing, his physical abilities are not amazing, and his wins have been nice, but not incredible.. the only thing Sage has that Schaub doesnt is a lack of losses and a clean bill of health. You could have said the same about Young last year for the Titans and that doesnt seem to be panning out too well for them this year, does it?

I am willing to discuss and consider the possibilities of what we can do with Sage, but to sit here and act like we have just discovered a gold mine and Schaub is no longer needed... that is just stupid.

Please..for the love of god.. open your eyes and consider all the facts. Quit trying to win the argument and start thinking about what is best for the team.

I honestly think you are more interested in establishing yourself as a Sage lover, so that you can say "I LOVED HIM FIRST!" if he becomes a superstar for us, than you are in doing what is best for the team.

I can see where people would think it, but it's not based on truth.

In fact, I giggled at Sage Lovers for the past few years. I didn't even bother posting on those threads because I thought the idea was lame. If anything, I have felt (in the past) that Sage WAS "just a good backup," a guy good enough to come in and keep the damage relatively low.

But I also began too wonder why Kubiak kept him these past two years. Why did we not go after a more suitable guy who might be able to be AS GOOD a quarterback as Sage...but with the upside of being a potential starter.

That's when I perked up (over this past off-season) and finally willed myself to believe that maybe there's a very good reason that Kubiak has locked Sage down as the true No. 2 QB on our team. Although I couldn;t see it in my mind's eye--because Carr was never really OUT of games enough to see Sage in long-term situations--I had to just trust that he was here for more than backup duty.

I mean, did you SEE the look of intensity on Kubiak's face at about 1:32 left in the fourth quarter? I've seen him smile at then end of a won game, but I have never seen the guy look like he did tonight. And the camera panning over to a smiling Sage Rosenfels, with a bandage on his chin, and the guys cutting up with him, well...it was a pretty fitting picture IMO.

Nah, I want this team to win. And I don't see it happening with Schaub as the all-out starter just as soon as he's ready to go for us.

Look, I've posted my points as to WHY I feel the way I feel.

If Schaub DOES get the job done, then that's great. It really is. And I will have been wrong, and I will willfully admit so. I did the same thing when I saw that my defense of David Carr for 4 1/2 years was wrong--I admitted to ALL OF YOU on the boards that I was wrong.

Just ask yourself this:

"Which Texans team have I enjoyed watching more: Schaub's Texans team or Sage's Texans team?"

I have felt a lot better about this TEAM when Sage has been the starter and has thus been able to really have this team under his leadership for long stretches of time.

Done.

Hopefully a lot of you DO see my heart on this.

Mr PC
12-14-2007, 12:49 AM
Sage might as well finish out this season as the starter. You cant take him out if he hasnt lost a game. Sage has earned the start for these last two matches, and next season I think the QBs should compete in camp for the starting spot.

GP
12-14-2007, 12:55 AM
Sage might as well finish out this season as the starter. You cant take him out if he hasnt lost a game. Sage has earned the start for these last two matches, and next season I think the QBs should compete in camp for the starting spot.

With Schaub's dislocated shoulder, I don't think there's even a choice about who starts the rest of the season.

I think we get hammered by the Colts, but I think we beat the Jags.

And I, like you, hope that we retain Sage and let him openly compete with Schaub for the starting role. That's something Carr never had (a rival) and it only helps the team in the end...it helps to see which guy is more fit. It forces a guy to prove himself beyond doubt, beyond the hype. And that includes the hype about Sage--If Schaub beats Sage out, in a truly OPEN competition, then I won't be upset. I'll be glad because Schaub will have had to have majorly improved on some things to have own the gig.

And therefore, in the end, WE (the fans) will win in that sort of situation. But there's nothing to be gained, IMO, by a team naming a starter and not even opening it up for competition.

Ole Miss Texan
12-14-2007, 12:58 AM
Sage has been such a breath of fresh air coming in and essentially we havn't lost a step. I want to say that first. However, watching Sage, even tonight, I just got a sense that he's not the guy I want leading our team for 16 games. Don't get me wrong, he played yet another great game but there were still those mistakes of rushing, poor timing on a lot of throws, etc. I don't see him as our full time starter.

I do also want to say this....Again, I love sage to death but a lot of this talk is reminding me of a certain situation up in Nashville. "Vince Young won all those games his rookie year....vs...Tenn's defense was the reason they won all those" Well tonight our Defense completely dominated. Mario was incredible, Demps had 2 easy Interception drops, Bennett had 2 Interception drops....Don't kid yourselves our defense was the biggest reason we won that game.

TheRealJoker
12-14-2007, 01:16 AM
What's crazy is that if Sage hadn't broken his hand last season Kubes probably would've pulled Carr and we would've seen him put these performances together. Do you think we would've traded for Schaub then or let Sage have his shot?

As it is I think our qbs are interchangeable in terms of production but we hitched our wagon to Schaub in the offseason so I think we have them battle it out in training camp next season unless somebody offers us a sweet deal for Sage.

austintexanite
12-14-2007, 01:50 AM
We'll probably trade Sage for a pick, as long as we get some good value for him I'm for it. There is no doubt he has played solid this past couple of weeks, but, in my opinion, that's it. Denver didn't play great and I think that Kubiak hid Sage's weaknesses.

Runner
12-14-2007, 05:41 AM
Sage is doing all of this one year too late. If Carr got hurt last year like Schaub did this year he probably would've been the starter going into this year.


Or in the history of David Carr if the oaches had benched him an let back-ups play, who knows where we'd be at?

jerek
12-14-2007, 07:55 AM
Sage has been good in relief but saying he is "3-0" isn't the whole story IMO--he's played some terrific stretches as a reliever and he has also lost winnable games for us as a reliever. He has a few "oh ****" moments every game (last night's INT into triple coverage--where did that come from?) and sometimes like last night those lead to big scores. A lot of Schaub's less than impressive games came w/o AJ while Rosenfels has mostly had him.

Having said that I absolutely would try to keep both of them--can't go wrong with having that kind of reliable backup on the bench. Maybe Sage can start, but for now I think the jury's out on that one.

OzzO
12-14-2007, 07:56 AM
...Maybe Rosenfels is a product of the system and Kubiak's coaching?

Unloading Rosenfels may not be as a bad as everyone thinks if Kubiak is as good as a QB coach some people think.

Good opportunity to leverage value to improve the team. Kind of like when Shanahan traded Portis for Bailey. Every one thought he was crazy for doing that.

Wouldn't that be something if the Texans became known as the team that could take any QB in their system and make him serviceable like Denver is known for their RB's in the system? Especially after our 1st five years.

thunderkyss
12-14-2007, 08:12 AM
If things work out well for us, we'll get a couple of picks for Sage Rosenfels.

If we beat the Colts, and Sage plays like he did tonight(good enough), We'll probably get a second round pick, plus a second day pick.

Sage can, and probably will go on to have a Flutie like career somewhere else.

It would be nice if he could do that here, but it isn't going to happen.

We'll trade him, to get enough capital to trade up in next years draft.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 08:12 AM
Well, I think Kris Brown was kickig long field goals all day because drives were stalling just past mid-field.

But I recall Sage leading us down to the goal line a lot tonight. Somebody has to get the team down there, and someone has to be "clutch" and not piss away the chance at a TD.

Sage was efficient. Had Denver not sustained long drives all night, mostly via Bradon Marshall on nice gains at crucial moments to sustains a drive, the score might have been even more lopsided.

Look, I am less of a stat guy...and I'm more of a perception guy. I see this offense, and its role players, looking a lot more in rhythm and operating at a better pace than I did with Schaub as the starter. I also see a defense who is pinning its ears back and making BIG PLAYS, which CAN be attributed to having Demps and Bennett coming along nicely, but has also got to be partly due to a Texans offense scoring points and allowing the defense to take chances more.

Simply put, I just feel that outside of the Chiefs game and the Saints game, Schaub has not exactly looked like a world champ (to me). I have said that it might be due to him being a first-year starter who is perhaps a little under-developed (especially pertaining to physical fitness and endurance) but yet I see a few other things that are more of just part of Schaub's style, which I don't see getting better all of a sudden.

Let me give you a little refresher since you claim your not a stats guy yet you just try to throw out bad games and have amnesia on other ones that weren't won...Schaub...80% after AJ went out in the Indy loss!!..how are those first three games and EFFICIENCY. His "horrible game v Atlanta he was 70% and over 300 yards with no ints. He lost a fumble. This is the same stuff Sage does and in many cases less turnovers and better percentages. Also, when your top weapon is out, the red zone shrinks. Everyone knows this. He was 3-1 with AJ. Our sack total is one of the tops in the league. Through half of the season Schaub was ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories. You keep saying I'm not spelling things out but your arguments hold no weight. I showed you a stat on our sack total and what NFL execs are seeing of the guy in the pocket..along with many of us..and you come right back with an argument that he can't get throws off and is too slow in the pocket. How does that work?

KC--(W)-16 of 22 (72.7), 225 yds, 1 TD, 1 int
Car--(W)-20 of 28 (71.4), 227 yds, 2 TDs, 0 int
Indy(L)--27 of 33 (81.8), 236 yds, 1 TD, 2 int
Atl(L)--28 of 40 (70), 317 yds, 1 TD, 0 int
Miami(W) 20 of 34 (58.8) 294 0 TD 1 int

I will keep going if you want.....because there are only 1 or 2 truly bad games out of 11, yet people are turning a blind eye..ok, I will..almost all of these games above abnd below are similar if not better to the stats you are saying made Champ Bailey look like a chump and "picking apart defenses."

Jax(L) 19 of 31 (61.3) 259 yds 0 Tds 1 int
Tenn(L) 5 of 9 (55.6), 23 yds, 0 and 0 (knowcked out..Sage comes in with 4 TOs and then leads us back)
S.D-(L and a truly bad game) 11 of 18 (61.1), 77 yds, 0 TD, 2 ints
Out Two Games
N.O.--21 of 33 (63.6) 293 yds 2 TDs 0 ints
CLE-(allegedly horrible game but actually not bad besides 2 picks)
22 of 36 (61.1) 256 yds 2 tds 2 ints
Tenn--3 of 5 (60), 34 yds, 0 and 0

Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.
And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.



Now you are just making up facts. Couch hasn't played in Cleveland since 2003. Anderson was drafted by Baltimore in 2005 and was picked up on waivers by Cle last year in 2006 where he played sparingly...a few games. So this is the year he has played and done well without jumping around.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 08:15 AM
Sage has been good in relief but saying he is "3-0" isn't the whole story IMO--he's played some terrific stretches as a reliever and he has also lost winnable games for us as a reliever. He has a few "oh ****" moments every game (last night's INT into triple coverage--where did that come from?) and sometimes like last night those lead to big scores. A lot of Schaub's less than impressive games came w/o AJ while Rosenfels has mostly had him.

Having said that I absolutely would try to keep both of them--can't go wrong with having that kind of reliable backup on the bench. Maybe Sage can start, but for now I think the jury's out on that one.

Well said. I seem to remember a guy named Beurlein who was a great backup and who won 4 games during a Cowboy SB year when Aikman went out. He was a hot commodity, went somewhere else and didn't really do too much the rest of his career but was a decent NFL QB..a better backup. You can't predict these things. The best thing would be to have both. You could probably count on one hand the number of NFL teams that have a QB make it through an entire season. That is why I will never get the argument that Schaub is fragile when almost all QBs these days miss games. I'd love to have both.

Buffi2
12-14-2007, 08:39 AM
I think we keep both of them. Sage just signed a 4 year 7 million $ contract last year. Give the guy a bonus and let him battle it out with Schaub next year. If Schaub shows he can do the job - then trade Sage after next year. Right now, however, we aren't sure that Schaub can stay on the field and a good backup seems to be pretty important.

How distressing would it be next year to know we have come this far, Schaub gets hurt and we can't continue our newly found winning ways because Sage is playing for Atlanta and we are stuck with some 3rd string backup. The very thought gives me the heebie jeebies.

Mr teX
12-14-2007, 09:01 AM
This thread is the exact reason i came to this place last to see the feedback about the game. Sage's been playing great i'm happy we have him, but to think there's going to be a QB controversy next year is absurd. mainly b/c

1) they just gave Schaub 40 + mil to be the starter

2) Schaub hasn't done anything to lose the starting job

3) Sage isn't playing head & shoulders better than Schaub.

Schaub has just unfortunately taken some tough shots that have knocked him out of a couple of games. Furthermore for all Sage has done his TD to INT ratio isn't all that great for someone who's only played significant minutes in 5 games.

Mr teX
12-14-2007, 09:15 AM
All this raving about Sage is just bandwagonish. If we're unable to overcome his 2 turnovers & lose against TB last week, i doubt we're having these threads pop up.

The thing everyone is missing is that our defense is playing lights out & we're not Losing the turnover battle which by far was the biggest reason we were losing games prior to our current win streak. Another thing is our run game has actually been a factor.

We're no different than any other team in these aspects of the game.

Goldensilence
12-14-2007, 09:17 AM
Have Said it before and will again. Cody Carlson 2.0.

brickman
12-14-2007, 09:17 AM
There is absolutely no way the Texans would pick Sage over Schaub. Sage can either accept his role as being a backup or can demand to be traded. I'm sure there will be teams that will bite, but the Texans have their man with Schaub.


100% correct!!!! You don't give Schaub the kind of $ they gave him and then sit him. If he's healthy, he's your starter......... case closed. It may be right or wrong, but it's the way it is in the NFL now.

maddogmrb
12-14-2007, 09:17 AM
There is absolutely no way the Texans would pick Sage over Schaub. Sage can either accept his role as being a backup or can demand to be traded. I'm sure there will be teams that will bite, but the Texans have their man with Schaub.

Yeah unfortunately, you may be right. It may not matter who is playing better or who has actually EARNED the job versus being annointed, does it?:fans:

brickman
12-14-2007, 09:20 AM
Yeah unfortunately, you may be right. It may not matter who is playing better or who has actually EARNED the job versus being annointed, does it?:fans:

In my opinion, the Texans gave Scahuab the job when the acquired him for the big bucks. It's too late to be second guessing their move now. Hopefully we can keep Sage, because he's a quality backup.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 09:20 AM
Yeah unfortunately, you may be right. It may not matter who is playing better or who has actually EARNED the job versus being annointed, does it?:fans:

Again, look at the stats above..you can't say that, especially with Sage's turnover ratio. I'm glad we are winning but it should just be two guys competing.

thunderkyss
12-14-2007, 09:21 AM
Look, I am less of a stat guy...and I'm more of a perception guy.

& that may be part of the problem right there.

Look, I'm not going to tell you that Schaub is better than Sage in any way. At the same time, I won't be telling anyone that Sage is the better QB. But if you asked me, I'd tell you I'd prefer to start Sage from now until.

I was one of the guys who was fine with starting Sage this season, and didn't see why we'd give up two #2 draft picks for a guy who is basically Sage Rosenfels. Unproven backup.

But it isn't going to happen.

Sage has played himself into the starters role, I'll agree with that. If we win out, and luck into a play-off spot, and they start Schaub for the play-off game, I'd be upset.

But if we win out, still miss the play-offs, I'd expect the Texans would be looking to cash in & redeem their second round pick in the 2008 draft.

& I'd be fine with that.

I'm a Sage fan.

But I don't think his play, or his ability to move the ball, to be that much better than Schaub's.

brickman
12-14-2007, 09:22 AM
& that may be part of the problem right there.

Look, I'm not going to tell you that Schaub is better than Sage in any way. At the same time, I won't be telling anyone that Sage is the better QB. But if you asked me, I'd tell you I'd prefer to start Sage from now until.

I was one of the guys who was fine with starting Sage this season, and didn't see why we'd give up two #2 draft picks for a guy who is basically Sage Rosenfels. Unproven backup.

But it isn't going to happen.

Sage has played himself into the starters role, I'll agree with that. If we win out, and luck into a play-off spot, and they start Schaub for the play-off game, I'd be upset.

But if we win out, still miss the play-offs, I'd expect the Texans would be looking to cash in & redeem their second round pick in the 2008 draft.

& I'd be fine with that.

I'm a Sage fan.

But I don't think his play, or his ability to move the ball, to be that much better than Schaub's.


GOOD POST!!!!

Goldensilence
12-14-2007, 09:28 AM
All this raving about Sage is just bandwagonish. If we're unable to overcome his 2 turnovers & lose against TB last week, i doubt we're having these threads pop up.

The thing everyone is missing is that our defense is playing lights out & we're not Losing the turnover battle which by far was the biggest reason we were losing games prior to our current win streak. Another thing is our run game has actually been a factor.

We're no different than any other team in these aspects of the game.

Psht why would someone like GP let...little things like FACTS get in the way of a perfectly imaginary QB controversy?!

Sage has been playing ok...not lights out or pro bowl caliber by any means. It's easy to laud praise when he has a top 5 WR and at least a semblance of a running game behind him. Two thing Schaub had only twice this year oh yeah...he was 2-0.

threetoedpete
12-14-2007, 09:30 AM
Dear Lord people. Enjoy a TEAM win with Mario breaking out on national TV. Schaub played excellent in some losses this year without weapons and did well for us. Sage has done well also and won the last 3. Considering his background in the league I'm not jumping on any controversies. Sage did a good job tonight but wasn't the ONE who won the game for us. Schaub has done the same. Enjoy the win without the b.s. The making mountains out of molehills gets old quick.

Well there's at least two of us in the house...Don't drink the cool aide Texan's fans. Nice post.

threetoedpete
12-14-2007, 09:41 AM
There is no controversy. Schaub is hurt and Sage is playing great in relief. I also think that calling Schaub fragile is like calling Adrian Peterson fragile. He got a concussion on a cheap shot and dislocated his shoulder on an odd fall.

Agreed. I think this is a tempest in tea pot for folks looking for something destructive to do. There is no controversy. Did I post that MS was cluster couplultion on the roll out and out on the edge......Sage is worse. Break out the sun dails. No one has figured it out yet...but they will. The people calling for a switch are just rats looking for the next ship to jump. Don't feed them and the trolls will move on.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 09:46 AM
Agreed. I think this is a tempest in tea pot for folks looking for something destructive to do. There is no controversy. Did I post that MS was cluster couplultion on the roll out and out on the edge......Sage is worse. Break out the sun dails. No one has figured it out yet...but they will. The people calling for a switch are just rats looking for the next ship to jump. Don't feed them and the trolls will move on.

Nice post. The stats show this all. As someone said above our defense has been what has changed games for us and has helped us overcome turnovers, etc. We are getting consistent play all around.

Chance_C
12-14-2007, 11:07 AM
Nice game Sage. Real nice game offensive line, running backs, defensive line, secondary, special teams, receivers, linebackers, trainers, fans, everyone. Except GP. This wasn't a total team effort, this was the Sage show. For the third time!! Holy cow man, have you tried Cymbalta? Everyone, please tell GP that Sage is God himself and maybe, just maybe we can have message board peace.

GP
12-14-2007, 11:23 AM
Wow.

With friends like you guys, who needs enemies?

I don't recall trashing any of you in my posts on this topic. I might be urging you to see it my way, and I might be enthusiastic about my opinion, but it seems like a lot of you are enjoying bashing me.

I gave MY points as to why I think Schaub is not the answer, but I don't see anything original from you guys on this. It's the sad, tired one-liners form you guys on it. I just figured we could talk football and discuss issues. I think if you look at my responses, they are filled with reasons and ideas...but I look at your replies on this, and it's perosnal attacks on me...hinting I need to be on a drug, saying that people should just agree with me so we can move on, etc.

LOL.

1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB.

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover.

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.

I'll just keep putting these points up on the board, in my posts, as a reminder that I am trying to engage in the arena of ideas while you guys are basically just having a grand old time with personal attacks.

Just let your guard down some Sunday afternoon (whenever Schaub finally gets healthy enough to last an entire game) and try to see if you can see any of those four points I just described.

You may continue with the kind remarks you've had for me thus far.

2BCF
12-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Sage might as well finish out this season as the starter. You cant take him out if he hasnt lost a game. Sage has earned the start for these last two matches, and next season I think the QBs should compete in camp for the starting spot.

Absolutely.
Stick with what's working for the remainder of the season.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Wow.

With friends like you guys, who needs enemies?

I don't recall trashing any of you in my posts on this topic. I might be urging you to see it my way, and I might be enthusiastic about my opinion, but it seems like a lot of you are enjoying bashing me.

I gave MY points as to why I think Schaub is not the answer, but I don't see anything original from you guys on this. It's the sad, tired one-liners form you guys on it. I just figured we could talk football and discuss issues. I think if you look at my responses, they are filled with reasons and ideas...but I look at your replies on this, and it's perosnal attacks on me...hinting I need to be on a drug, saying that people should just agree with me so we can move on, etc.

LOL.

1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB.

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover.

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.

I'll just keep putting these points up on the board, in my posts, as a reminder that I am trying to engage in the arena of ideas while you guys are basically just having a grand old time with personal attacks.

Just let your guard down some Sunday afternoon (whenever Schaub finally gets healthy enough to last an entire game) and try to see if you can see any of those four points I just described.

You may continue with the kind remarks you've had for me thus far.

Maybe people wouldn't be so critical if you actually read the stats and the facts before hunting and pecking 100 mph another reply. The spelled out arguments are on the previous page and they are true. I laid them out game by game. I can't help that you made up facts about Anderson to prove your point. You can't take 11 games where a guy gets two massive hits and is out and make the argument that he is automatically fragile when almost every QB, save maybe 5-8, don't make it through a full season. As others have pointed out, Aikman only played 11 his rookie year. People weren't rushing to annoint Steve Walsh because he got their only win. It happens. Please read the long list of facts on the other pages. Stop listing the pocket presence argument when the totals say otherwise. Its frustrating to debate a person and to lay out things like his rankings the first half of the season only for it to be ignored because you are too busy typing.

hookinreds
12-14-2007, 11:36 AM
We'll probably trade Sage for a pick, as long as we get some good value for him I'm for it. There is no doubt he has played solid this past couple of weeks, but, in my opinion, that's it. Denver didn't play great and I think that Kubiak hid Sage's weaknesses.

Sage keeps playing well, we trade him back to the Dolphins for the first pick and we take McFadden or trade down in top 5 and take Jake Long or another OL stud, and a RB in a later round. It's simple. Ha!

Chance_C
12-14-2007, 11:39 AM
The problems with football discussions with you (I admit, I usually only observe) are one sided discussions. All of them. It's your way or the highway. I've read where people have countered your arguments with valid points, I've read where people have tried to reason with you, all to no avail. Sage had a decent game. The Texans played a hell of a game. Sage is a good QB. Matt is a good QB. Matt took some serious shots, and he's missed some time. Sage hasn't and he's proving himself on the field. Good for him. And even more importantly, good for the Texans. I think that Matt showed enough that considering our investment in him (yes, it's a factor), and what he showed while he was on the field without certain players that he should not lose his job due to injury. Sage has been a great asset for us no doubt about it. Thank God that he was our backup, or this season could have really gotten ugly. Bottom line, it's a great day to be a Texans fan, even amongst all this discourse.

Texan_Bill
12-14-2007, 11:42 AM
The problems with football discussions with you (I admit, I usually only observe) are one sided discussions. All of them. It's your way or the highway. I've read where people have countered your arguments with valid points, I've read where people have tried to reason with you, all to no avail. Sage had a decent game. The Texans played a hell of a game. Sage is a good QB. Matt is a good QB. Matt took some serious shots, and he's missed some time. Sage hasn't and he's proving himself on the field. Good for him. And even more importantly, good for the Texans. I think that Matt showed enough that considering our investment in him (yes, it's a factor), and what he showed while he was on the field without certain players that he should not lose his job due to injury. Sage has been a great asset for us no doubt about it. Thank God that he was our backup, or this season could have really gotten ugly. Bottom line, it's a great day to be a Texans fan, even amongst all this discourse.

QFT!!! Great post!!

Mr teX
12-14-2007, 02:12 PM
Wow.

With friends like you guys, who needs enemies?

I don't recall trashing any of you in my posts on this topic. I might be urging you to see it my way, and I might be enthusiastic about my opinion, but it seems like a lot of you are enjoying bashing me.

I gave MY points as to why I think Schaub is not the answer, but I don't see anything original from you guys on this. It's the sad, tired one-liners form you guys on it. I just figured we could talk football and discuss issues. I think if you look at my responses, they are filled with reasons and ideas...but I look at your replies on this, and it's perosnal attacks on me...hinting I need to be on a drug, saying that people should just agree with me so we can move on, etc.

LOL.

1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB.

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.
Are u serious? If you Tivo'ed the game go back & see how much faster Sage is coming from under center.
3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover.
What the hell kind of critique is this?
4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please. Yeah b/c Sage is soooo much better at that, Yeah he was really sensing that blindside pressure against TB when he got hit & stripped from the backside both plays he fumbled the ball.

I'll just keep putting these points up on the board, in my posts, as a reminder that I am trying to engage in the arena of ideas while you guys are basically just having a grand old time with personal attacks.

Just let your guard down some Sunday afternoon (whenever Schaub finally gets healthy enough to last an entire game) and try to see if you can see any of those four points I just described.

You may continue with the kind remarks you've had for me thus far.


You have no points, everything you've said about Schaub has happened or can be said about Sage. & again for a guy who's only played in 5 games & started in 3, explain why he has just as many INT's & TO's as Schaub does who's played more games.

Thorn
12-14-2007, 02:18 PM
Will someone tell me what's wrong with having two good quarterbacks on the team? Why all hand wringing over this? Schaub is the starter, Sage is the backup, and we should be frigging damn happy we have them both.

And this comes from someone who (before the season started) wanted Sage to start and seriously trashed the trade for Schaub.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Will someone tell me what's wrong with having two good quarterbacks on the team? Why all hand wringing over this? Schaub is the starter, Sage is the backup, and we should be frigging damn happy we have them both.

And this comes from someone who (before the season started) wanted Sage to start and seriously trashed the trade for Schaub.

Exactly the point many of us are making. People started writing Sage the savior posts 2 weeks ago and most just wanted to explain that Schaub has done just as well, if not better, and that it is not a problem to have both guys and be winning. Its a good TEAM problem to have.

Mr PC
12-14-2007, 03:41 PM
I am very pleased with our QBs, I want to keep both of them on the roster that way we dont have any worries. I do feel the need to stick up for Sage when so many people say that he is only a backup and thats all he will ever amount to. Sage has proven over and over that he has what it takes to lead this team. And I really dont see how anybody in their right mind could say Schaub has done better than Sage. I'd say they have both been good, possibly equal, but Sage has done every bit as good a job as Matt and there is no sense in denying it.

GP
12-14-2007, 03:56 PM
Will someone tell me what's wrong with having two good quarterbacks on the team? Why all hand wringing over this? Schaub is the starter, Sage is the backup, and we should be frigging damn happy we have them both.

And this comes from someone who (before the season started) wanted Sage to start and seriously trashed the trade for Schaub.

I'm the opposite of you: I laid a big wet sloppy kiss on the Schaub deal when it happened. Heck, I even posted a YouTube video about Schaub that showed how better he was than Carr (from Brian Baldinger's NFLN analysis). And I guess I forgot to hold my horses and wait until I saw him on the field.

Sage signed a four-year contract in 2006 (details here) (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=nfl&id=1276) so that's some good news.

But he can seek a trade. I don't know if he'd push for it or not. If he's relatively happy in Houston, he might just be happy with with his $2 million signing bonus, as well as the $1 million or so he gets every year for four years. He might be content as a backup. I just don't know why he wouldn't try and leverage his recent success into a starting role somewhere.

If I were Sage, I'd have my agent express a desire to team management that an open competition (in camp) needs to be guaranteed somehow.

Otherwise, there seems to be some teams with QB messes (Chicago, for example) who might give us good value for him. Maybe.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 04:00 PM
I am very pleased with our QBs, I want to keep both of them on the roster that way we dont have any worries. I do feel the need to stick up for Sage when so many people say that he is only a backup and thats all he will ever amount to. Sage has proven over and over that he has what it takes to lead this team. And I really dont see how anybody in their right mind could say Schaub has done better than Sage. I'd say they have both been good, possibly equal, but Sage has done every bit as good a job as Matt and there is no sense in denying it.

And it is the above sentiment that seems to have caused the dispute. There are arguments to both sides but in reality its started as people saying Sage was so much better than Schaub and how we made a bad move. Go look at the stats. It is close but it isn't a complete review with the players that were missing and with the sample size. There are turnovers and many other things to look at. There are many of us in our right mind that just aren't so black and white and hate the bandwagon nature proclaiming one player so much better after every week.

Sage signed a four-year contract in 2006 details here (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=nfl&id=1276)

Yes, it has been talked about here but you were too busy telling us he was going to bolt because fo these games

GP
12-14-2007, 04:06 PM
I am very pleased with our QBs, I want to keep both of them on the roster that way we dont have any worries. I do feel the need to stick up for Sage when so many people say that he is only a backup and thats all he will ever amount to. Sage has proven over and over that he has what it takes to lead this team. And I really dont see how anybody in their right mind could say Schaub has done better than Sage. I'd say they have both been good, possibly equal, but Sage has done every bit as good a job as Matt and there is no sense in denying it.

Quoted for daring boldness.

Mr PC
12-14-2007, 04:10 PM
And it is the above sentiment that seems to have caused the dispute. There are arguments to both sides but in reality its started as people saying Sage was so much better than Schaub and how we made a bad move. Go look at the stats. It is close but it isn't a complete review with the players that were missing and with the sample size. There are turnovers and many other things to look at. There are many of us in our right mind that just aren't so black and white and hate the bandwagon nature proclaiming one player so much better after every week.


Ive looked at the stats and seen both of them perform. Like I said they both did well. But there is no way to make the case that Schaub has done better than Sage. You could make the case that they have performed about equally, or that Schaub has a higher ceiling, but there is no way you can say Matt has performed better than Sage this season. In the last sentece of your post you say you hate the bandwagon mentality of proclaiming one player better than another based on a relatively small sample size. Guess what that is exactly what you are doing when you say Matt is better than Sage.

GP
12-14-2007, 04:12 PM
And it is the above sentiment that seems to have caused the dispute. There are arguments to both sides but in reality its started as people saying Sage was so much better than Schaub and how we made a bad move. Go look at the stats. It is close but it isn't a complete review with the players that were missing and with the sample size. There are turnovers and many other things to look at. There are many of us in our right mind that just aren't so black and white and hate the bandwagon nature proclaiming one player so much better after every week.

I was off the Schaub wagon right about the Miami game. So I was off the wagon way before Sage was even breaking a sweat on the field on Sundays this season.

The whole "Sage is a great backup" thing is what's really irking me, I guess. To me, it's a slap in the face of a guy (Sage) who has been a better overall solution at QB than Schaub has been.

Man, I am sorry if this rubs you wrong. But I just do NOT see what you all see in Matt Schaub. You can say I am making a snap judgment, but that's what happens when we get fed a bunch of mularkey on David Carr for 5 years.

This team has a vastly more depleted line than Schaub had, and Sage is making it work. He's just flat out lapping Schaub when it comes to getting it done.

I think we've just about worn this argument out. I think I have said all I can say, which is probably just fine with you.

GP
12-14-2007, 04:13 PM
Ive looked at the stats and seen both of them perform. Like I said they both did well. But there is no way to make the case that Schaub has done better than Sage. You could make the case that they have performed about equally, or that Schaub has a higher ceiling, but there is no way you can say Matt has performed better than Sage this season. In the last sentece of your post you say you hate the bandwagon mentality of proclaiming one player better than another based on a relatively small sample size. Guess what that is exactly what you are doing when you say Matt is better than Sage.

Correct: Both those guys are backups, essentially.

And I truly feel, 100%, that Sage is proving out to be just as capable a starter for THIS team as Schaub has been depicted as being.

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 07:59 PM
I was off the Schaub wagon right about the Miami game. So I was off the wagon way before Sage was even breaking a sweat on the field on Sundays this season.The whole "Sage is a great backup" thing is what's really irking me, I guess. To me, it's a slap in the face of a guy (Sage) who has been a better overall solution at QB than Schaub has been.

Man, I am sorry if this rubs you wrong. But I just do NOT see what you all see in Matt Schaub. You can say I am making a snap judgment, but that's what happens when we get fed a bunch of mularkey on David Carr for 5 years.

This team has a vastly more depleted line than Schaub had, and Sage is making it work. He's just flat out lapping Schaub when it comes to getting it done.

I think we've just about worn this argument out. I think I have said all I can say, which is probably just fine with you.

Ok, fine but I've shown in the stats in page 4 that you are off about his play in those games.

It rubs me the wrong way because you are saying we were fed mularkey yet you admitted to ate it up while some of us said it wasn't true for 3 years. Now you are doing the same thing with Sage yet don't see it and are trying to throw it in our face. So how does that make sense?Obviously I'm not the only way thinking this. You are right, the circular reasoning has hit a point where there isn't much more to say.

Ive looked at the stats and seen both of them perform. Like I said they both did well. But there is no way to make the case that Schaub has done better than Sage. You could make the case that they have performed about equally, or that Schaub has a higher ceiling, but there is no way you can say Matt has performed better than Sage this season. In the last sentece of your post you say you hate the bandwagon mentality of proclaiming one player better than another based on a relatively small sample size. Guess what that is exactly what you are doing when you say Matt is better than Sage.

Actually no. The only reason I'm in any of these arguments was within a week of Sage doing well you all were jumping on the "Sage should have been playing all along, Schaub is no good, we wasted draft picks" bandwagon. My whole argument all along was just to compare the two without the b.s. and look at the real stats without the hyperbole. I have done that yet keep hearing the railings of ALL of this horrible games while dismissing turnovers of Sage's, etc. I just think it is a b.s., back-up-loving argument. The funny part of it is I like Sage ALOT. Again, I just want the facts to be straight instead of the weak stuff I've seen thrown around which somehow makes one guy infallible.

Overall it is tiring to hear about one guy "tearing up" other teams when his stats are no better than the other one and the main reason we are winning is we are getting a complete team effort and having our D step up. I respect counter arguments on this board if everyone just takes in the whole picture. I definitely am impressed with Sage. I just am more impressed withg our team as a whole and think we have a good system for Schaub to play in and Sage to do what he is doing. We need both.

My work is done..thanks for having fun in this.

Maddict5
12-14-2007, 08:59 PM
1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB. true to a certain extent so far.. but he has taken hits

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.you dont seem to realise that the o-line has just played better lately.. you'll say its because of sage but most would agree that they're just improving with exp.. sage didnt look too hot when he didnt get protection v the bucs

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover. ridiculous

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.
1. like some1 else said- watch the bucs
2. its not even true- a small example http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d804530be



alrite ive actually been on nfl.com for the last hour look at clips of all our games so far this season.. i highly recommend everybody who thinks sage> schaub do the same because its easy to forget how good schaub was and how much more explosive our passing game was...

and look at sages other games..

i hate that i sound like im bashing sage cos thats not my intent at all.. its just to show why schaub should start over him imo

in 2 of his 3 starts (broncos and raiders) were against terrible run D's which meant we had a legit running threat that those teams had to respect giving sage more time etc and all that means we get to run the denver offence so to speak


however in those two games:
sage made a stupid throw into double (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29322&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG9 41 secs into the second vid if any1 wants to se) and triple coverage something schaub has been guilty of aswell.

v the titans- sages best game eventhough he threw 4 ints.. how much did the tacks hammering us and possibly easing up have to do though?

against the bucs he had a stupid fumble too

and in the 3 games hes won he threw for 181, 209 and 200 yds.. just saying he didnt have to shoulder the load

look this post is to prove that sage, though a fine qb, makes mistakes too..

personally im not worried, gary knows who is, and will put, the best qb out there and il cheer for them.. and i think it will be schaub

Kaiser Toro
12-14-2007, 09:04 PM
We are fine at QB and there is no controversy. Schaub is the starter and Sage is showing the league that he can start for most clubs as well. All parties are enjoying the win-win situation, save for a couple of stragglers.

Maddict5
12-14-2007, 09:11 PM
thinking about it...i hate this thread!

we should be enjoying this run not arguing about qb's again :gun: ... same ole texansfans:)

HoustonFrog
12-14-2007, 10:10 PM
thinking about it...i hate this thread!

we should be enjoying this run not arguing about qb's again :gun: ... same ole texansfans:)

QFT..thus the fire

GP
12-15-2007, 11:41 AM
Houston Frog says I am only interested in forcing everyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you check HIS last few posts on this thread...he continues to hammer away, trying to prove me wrong; trying to say HE is right. He's just as dogmatic as I am, and he thinks that throwing some stats out there is going to sway the jury for a conviction.

I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.

The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.

4-7

3-0

David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.

Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."

They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.

You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2007, 04:52 PM
Houston Frog says I am only interested in forcing everyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you check HIS last few posts on this thread...he continues to hammer away, trying to prove me wrong; trying to say HE is right. He's just as dogmatic as I am, and he thinks that throwing some stats out there is going to sway the jury for a conviction.

I'm not going to stop saying it: I like this team better when Sage is starting and has a chance to go the distance in a game.

The only stats I follow are the W-L stats, and we're rapidly approaching Sage's 4th win...which will match Schaub's win total in 11 tries.

4-7

3-0

David Carr had a few good stats, IIRC, but it was not necessarily indicative of translating into W's.

Just as a lot of you rag the media for parroting each other on the VY-RB-Mario situation for the past 1.5 years, I see a lot of similar behavior from posters on this board: "Sage is a great backup," or "Sure am glad to have a great backup like Sage."

They are BOTH backups, and one backup (IMO) is looking like more of a starter than the other.

You can't give me 2 or 3 seasons worth of Schaub as a starter to really convince me that Schaub is the better QB. I have THIS season to go by, and I don't like what I see in Schaub. So sue me.

If it makes you feel better, keep trying. There are multiple people in this thread that have hammered you because of your random insistence to look blindly at our team as a whole and even evaluate the QB position objectively. I have stated multiple times that both guys have done a bang up job. My job isn't to be right, it is to actually point out the realistic stats and look objectively at the QB position. You have made up stuff about the stats, you have ignored objective posts, you have made up stuff about players like Anderson. Again, the difference between you and the rest of us is that we aren't raving about one player in order to make him better. We are counteracting a bandwagon approach that refuses to look at how well we are doing with both and that there shouldn't be a controversy. Go look at my first post and look at your response. You can't objectively look at anything because you just want to beat your chest. Let me remind you.

Me. complimenting both: Dear Lord people. Enjoy a TEAM win with Mario breaking out on national TV. Schaub played excellent in some losses this year without weapons and did well for us. Sage has done well also and won the last 3. Considering his background in the league I'm not jumping on any controversies. Sage did a good job tonight but wasn't the ONE who won the game for us. Schaub has done the same. Enjoy the win without the b.s. The making mountains out of molehills gets old quick.

You beating your chest: Typical of someone who's on the losing end of the argument.

Nice try.
"Look over there! An eagle!"

If this is how you act, then you will get these responses. Sorry.

Fox
12-15-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm still in the camp that Schaub is our starting QB heading into next season, and that Sage is a great back-up who is worth every cent we pay him. I think comparing W-L records is a little unfair based on this year alone since Schaub was missing this teams biggest offensive weapon for 7 of his 11 starts, and wins and losses have quite a bit more to do with how the entire team plays and who you are playing than it does how one individual performs. Pulling out the W-L's as the main argument for Sage to be our starter is reminiscent of the Vinsanity followers blindly buying into the "He doesn't play that great, but he just wins," dogma.

Bottom line is we have two quarterbacks who are very capable of winning a lot of games in this league. Schaub's our starter right now, but if this season is any indication of his ability to stay healthy, Sage will be equally important to this team.

Where it gets interesting for me is if Sage plays great and we beat the Colts and the Jags in competitive games. If that happens, especially the beating the Colts part, I'd like to see at least a camp competition for the starting spot next year. I did like to see all the attention Sage was getting from his team mates at the end of the game Thursday. It was obvious to me that he is highly admired by his team, and that says a lot about him as a leader.

thunderkyss
12-15-2007, 08:28 PM
The thing about it, is that in January of '06, when the Texans confirmed their desire to continue on with the David Carr experiment, & when we were going over what a "Denver Style offense" needed out of the QB position to be successful, it was pretty much accepted that we didn't need a H.O.F. ProBowler at the QB position.

We needed someone who was calm under pressure, understands the game, and willing to sacrifice his body(& stat line) in order to make a play, and give us a chance to win.

Alot of us saw that in Sage from the first preseason game, and when we were in the hunt for a QB(after the obvious failure of the mitten man) many of us would have preferred to stay with Sage, instead of overpaying an over the hill free agent, or overspending ourselves to make a move in the draft to acquire a QB through the draft.

But we gave up two second round picks to acquire Matt Schaub. Weather you think that was too much, or a bargain, you've got to agree that was pretty expensive. Especially considering the contract we gave Schaub, in contrast to the what we are paying for Sage.

Now, I'm thrilled that Sage has had this opportunity to show the NFL what he can do. & I'm pleased that he's doing well.

It would be nice, if we could keep both Sage & Schuab, even though I think we were more generous than we needed to be, I think Matt will be a fine NFL QB, and he'll take us as far as this team can go.

But Sage Rosenfels is proving himself to be a rare commodity in this NFL.

Who is going to start for Baltimore in '08?? Chicago?? Miami?? Kansas City?? Philly?? Atlanta?? Carolina?? SF??

Because of Sage Rosenfels, we may, for the very first time, be in the drivers seat when the offseason rolls around, and on the good side of trade talks with other teams.

It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??


Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??

Maddict5
12-15-2007, 08:38 PM
It would be great to be able to keep Sage & Matt, but wouldn't it be nice to have Chester Taylor in our backfield?? or Julius Jones?? Kenny Watson?? Jerious Norwood??
Or what would you think if we could trade Sage Rosenfels & Darius Walker for Ed Reed??

chester taylor- i wouldnt do it but i see what you're thinking
julius jones-1) yeah that romo guy sure does stink. they'll be desperate
2) julius is a fa anyway

kenny watson-1)carson palmer?
2)kenny watson wtf? you want to give away the best backup qb in the league for kenny watson? thunderkyss casserly anyone?

Joe Texan
12-15-2007, 08:45 PM
Sage is not trade bait he is the franchise right now, Schaub is sceduled for surgery so it appears we have a very capable qb to start. All you trade sage guys need to look at it like trade schaub. can we get what we paid for him and if so I say do it. I do not think schaub is holding his value very well. Right now we are lucky not to be miami or San Fran or thr Ravens. We have a team that has heart. and where did they get it. I believe Sage has a lot to do with that. Do not try to throw the guy wh has stepped up the most from the bench under the bus. He is playing as good as he possibly can right now and I am thankful we are getting points on the board.

b0ng
12-15-2007, 08:50 PM
Bunch of nonsense.

Sorry but I have seen many years of Sage playing. He is only "okay". His days in Miami, along with his days here in Houston has shown me that he is a backup. He is usually good for about 200 yards and and about 30 passing attempts for a game he starts. Sage does good as long as the running game is chugging along nicely and defenses can't tee off on him passing.

If Sage goes and starts for a team they will be mediocre as long as all of the pieces around him are working properly (The running game, and protection, and the defense giving him good field position). He cannot shoulder an entire team and win by himself week in and week out. It's just not going to happen with Sage and this is why he's a backup.

With Schaub there is definitely not enough evidence to show either, and people who are trying to convince you that Schaub is a bust are just trying to do like the media and have the first right opinion. I see certain posters always trying to pat themselves on the back around here for their prior posts saying "Mario was good" or "Carr was bad". There's just not enough evidence really of what Schaub can or cannot do on an offense. He has been hurt twice this season on some brutal shots. It happens. Next season will be what I consider his "sophmore" season, and we should really see some improvement (Maybe even considerable improvement) if Schaub is who we think he will be.

But saying that Schaub is nothing more than a backup is just silly and has way too much "jump the gun". People saying that Sage is great and should be a starter, have a very bad longterm memory, and are only thinking about his last 3 starts (2 of which have been against very below average defenses).

Besides that, this probably won't even be an issue come next season if we address the O-line in any way shape or form. I have a feeling that Mr. Schaub will benefit a lot more from having more than 1.3 seconds to read a defense and make a decision.

ObsiWan
12-15-2007, 09:01 PM
What's crazy is that if Sage hadn't broken his hand last season Kubes probably would've pulled Carr and we would've seen him put these performances together. Do you think we would've traded for Schaub then or let Sage have his shot?

As it is I think our qbs are interchangeable in terms of production but we hitched our wagon to Schaub in the offseason so I think we have them battle it out in training camp next season unless somebody offers us a sweet deal for Sage.

Truth!

I just found this thread and had to go thru 4 pages before someone finally said the real reason why Sage didn't start the final 2-3 games of last year. Sage broke his hand trying to make a tackle on a special teams play - a blocked FG I think.

Oh, and with that injury there goes your "Sage is not fragile" theory right out the window.

The smart thing to do is keep them both. Any player can get hurt at any time. We are in a most excellent position when our backup QB can run the offense without much drop-off in effectiveness.

Unless and until we have a third QB who can also come in and run the offense effectively, we don't let go of our insurance policy. To do anything else flies in the face of common sense.

GlassHalfFull
12-15-2007, 09:06 PM
I posted this on another Sage thread earlier today, but feel it is worth repeating on this one:

I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:

I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.

But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.

thunderkyss
12-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Sorry but I have seen many years of Sage playing. He is only "okay". His days in Miami, along with his days here in Houston has shown me that he is a backup.

So which one of those stud QBs finally saved that franchise??

Or maybe it wasn't a QB problem??

ObsiWan
12-15-2007, 09:18 PM
100% correct!!!! You don't give Schaub the kind of $ they gave him and then sit him. If he's healthy, he's your starter......... case closed. It may be right or wrong, but it's the way it is in the NFL now.

That depends on who the coach is.
Some coaches play the best guy. Period.

Example: Do you really think Derek Anderson is making more money than Brady Quinn??
Derek Anderson is making the NFL minimum.
Some have reported that Quinn signed for $7 mil guaranteed money; somewhere in the 20 mil neighborhood total money.
Yet Quinn sits.
And WILL CONTINUE TO SIT as long as Derek plays lights out like he's doing now. Big money contract be damned.



This bickering is pointless. Lord Schaub will be our QB next season and we will crush the AFC South in one swift stroke!

b0ng
12-15-2007, 09:27 PM
So which one of those stud QBs finally saved that franchise??

Or maybe it wasn't a QB problem??


Why are you trying to make me throw Sage under a bus when that is not what I'm trying to do.

I can garuntee you that Miami and Houston have both seen that Sage Rosenfels is a quality BACKUP and really not too much more. This is my opinion, but if you look at his numbers, and the kind of games he has, you can tell that he is a decent game manager (somewhat) who will make costly mistakes (Interceptions) if you force him to air out the ball, or complete a lot of passes. He's not making "rookie" mistakes or any of that nonsense, that is just the type of player he is. Somebody who is good for insurance, but not the guy you want to see taking 80% of the offensive snaps in a season.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement, but I'm guessing is that it's not Sage's fault that Miami can't see what talent they had, and Houston is making the same mistake.

That statement is pretty much false because Sage started in at least 4 or 5 Dolphins games in his career and was mediocre at best. Like I've said before, he is a career backup. He can come in and win a few games if you need it, but he cannot strap up a team like a backpack and carry them to a playoff berth. He gives up too many interceptions, and really is a lot looser with the ball than most OC's like. And HC's. And QB Coaches. The fact that he has won 3 of his starts here, while being very good, really doesn't mean much to me, as 2 of 3 starts we were favored to win any (The TB game was very impressive).

But no, I don't think there will be a QB controversey except the one that will be maintained by the people who are never satisfied with how a Houston team is doing, and will always demand change with no research or knowledge of what they are demanding. We see it time and time again, and I think with Kubiak and Smith making the decisions I am perfectly fine with what their evaluations of talent are and why they are making the moves they do.

thunderkyss
12-15-2007, 09:45 PM
Why are you trying to make me throw Sage under a bus when that is not what I'm trying to do.

I'm just saying you can't use what Sage did in Miami as proof of anything, since there hasn't been a successful QB in Miami in a decade.

He's smart, he's poised, and has the ability to win within the context of a team. Which is much better than half the starters in the league today.

My argument, is that he's good trade bait, and I believe there are several GMs who are looking at Sage right now, and thinking about next year.

I doubt anyone will sign him as their starter, but they'll sign him with the intent of letting him compete for a starting job, which is better than what we will offer him.

This is my opinion, but if you look at his numbers, and the kind of games he has, you can tell that he is a decent game manager (somewhat) who will make costly mistakes (Interceptions) if you force him to air out the ball, or complete a lot of passes.

Gee... that sounds like Ben Rothlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tavaris Jackson, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler, & David Garrard.

He's not Peyton Manning(who will throw 6 INTs in a game from time to time), Tom Brady, or Bret Farve.

That's fine, I'd like to have that type of QB, but it's not necessary for a running football team.


He's not making "rookie" mistakes or any of that nonsense, that is just the type of player he is. Somebody who is good for insurance, but not the guy you want to see taking 80% of the offensive snaps in a season.

I know I wish he was taking 100% of our snaps last year, and I bet there are several teams who'd like him to take most of their snaps this year.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement, but I'm guessing is that it's not Sage's fault that Miami can't see what talent they had, and Houston is making the same mistake.

My statement was simply to point out that no QB was successful in Miami, so you can't say that Sage is a back-up based on what he did in Miami.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2007, 09:59 PM
I posted this on another Sage thread earlier today, but feel it is worth repeating on this one:

I have read and watched the Sage threads the last couple of weeks without commenting. Mainly because I have been disgusted with the back and forth crap that has been posted. I want to go on record with the following:

I have been thrilled to see Sage come in and play so well. Thank God we have him and he has been able to perform and get wins the last couple of games.

But I see absolutely no reason to trash Schaub, just because you like what you have seen from Sage. Can't we be happy with our QB situation? It sure is a heck of a lot better than it was last year. Just because you like one player over another, there is NO REASON to villify the other. They are both Texans and I, for one, am glad to have both of them on the team.

Well said and a point being made over and over by many.

b0ng
12-15-2007, 10:06 PM
I'm just saying you can't use what Sage did in Miami as proof of anything, since there hasn't been a successful QB in Miami in a decade.

Um, no, you're completely wrong. Miami hasn't had any successful QB's because they haven't had one QB with any sort of rock solid starter-material talent. Saying you can't fault Sage for being on a bad team, makes me think David Carr wasn't at fault either

He's smart, he's poised, and has the ability to win within the context of a team. Which is much better than half the starters in the league today.

My argument, is that he's good trade bait, and I believe there are several GMs who are looking at Sage right now, and thinking about next year.

There could be, because there are a lot of very very stupid GM's in the league who have made terrible decisions throughout there career. Anybody that is willing to give up the amount of picks the Texans would demand for Sage (Because he's still under contract, and any team who would want them would have to actually trade picks for him) is not that bright really.

I doubt anyone will sign him as their starter, but they'll sign him with the intent of letting him compete for a starting job, which is better than what we will offer him.

This makes no sense. Again, if any team is willing to try to get him from us this off season or next, they will have to give up quite a bit to get him. He'll have to be their starter, or else they will have traded at least 2 picks (or a really high one) to get a backup?

Gee... that sounds like Ben Rothlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tavaris Jackson, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler, & David Garrard.

Pennington and Jackson both have pretty much sucked the entire year. Phillip Rivers is woefully underperforming with the talent around him, and Eli is making ridiculous mistakes in a lot of his games. His cupcake schedule is whats making him look good. Jason Campbell is decidedly bleh. Ben Roethlisberger, haha. I'm sorry but Big Ben is a way better QB than Sage is due to the fact that he has a decent gun, is fairly accurate, and aside from 1 year, has never put up anything really worse than a 1.5 TD - 1 INT ration. Sage could never claim that. And the jury is still out on Jay Cutler, but for his rookie season, the kid is looking alright, but it's still his rookie season. Seriously though, aside from PIT and DEN most all of those teams are having QB issues of one sort or another, and would probably look to sign Sage if we were giving him away for next to nothing.

He's not Peyton Manning(who will throw 6 INTs in a game from time to time), Tom Brady, or Bret Farve.

That's fine, I'd like to have that type of QB, but it's not necessary for a running football team.

I know I wish he was taking 100% of our snaps last year, and I bet there are several teams who'd like him to take most of their snaps this year.

My statement was simply to point out that no QB was successful in Miami, so you can't say that Sage is a back-up based on what he did in Miami.

The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.

Mr PC
12-15-2007, 10:17 PM
The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.

Since you seem to take the TD:INT ratio very seriously, here's a question for ya.

12 TD to 8 INT

or

9 TD to 9 INT

Which would you prefer?

HoustonFrog
12-15-2007, 10:33 PM
Since you seem to take the TD:INT ratio very seriously, here's a question for ya.

12 TD to 8 INT

or

9 TD to 9 INT
Which would you prefer?

Well considering the 8 ints were in less than half the games the other one played, it would all depend now wouldn't it and that is the rub. That and the fact that this is a b.s. argument considering the need for 2 QBs and the number of guys hurt every year. That and the other numbers thrown out. But per usual the circle will continue as many decide to keep smearing one in order to make themselves feel better concerning their argument. Why can't you enjoy both without playing eraser accounting with stats?

Mr PC
12-15-2007, 10:39 PM
Well considering the 8 ints were in less than half the games the other one played, it would all depend now wouldn't it and that is the rub. That and the fact that this is a b.s. argument considering the need for 2 QBs and the number of guys hurt every year. That and the other numbers thrown out. But per usual the circle will continue as many decide to keep smearing one in order to make themselves feel better concerning their argument. Why can't you enjoy both without playing eraser accounting with stats?

dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.

HoustonFrog
12-15-2007, 10:46 PM
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.

Here is the funny part. The only reason I ever joined these arguments was because TexanRed and GP...and sometimes you went on a 2 week bing on Sage is the man threads while putting down Schaub. I rarely have seen anyone say that they didn't like Sage last year or that Sage hasn't been a good play for us this year. Yet I continuously see people make up stats, thow out comparisons that don't fit and get game amnesia. The only argument I have ever seen against Sage is that he was on 2 other bad teams that tried him as a starter and he never made it. Which did happen. I've also seen people counteract the Schaub arguments about play since Sage's TOs have been high and his yardage lower. I love having the guy here. I just love having Schaub too and am trying to keep people straight on fantasy vs. reality concerning his games. That's it. I should probably slip out because it becomes a circle of nothing after awhile and my point all along..since my first post in this thread...is that we are playing well..Defense and Mario are helping us a ton which counteracts losing points off TOs. We are getting steady play throughout. We should be happy that it is happening and we have 2 really quality guys. I just wish Matt had the running game we have had lately and had Andre the whole time since he was 3-1 with him. I'm just happy to be a fighting 7-7.

b0ng
12-15-2007, 11:00 PM
dude I do enjoy both QBs, I have said many time that we are fortunate to have two solid QBs and I want to hang on to both players. I like Schaub, I think he will develop into Matt Hasslebeck. I like Sage, he wins games for us and plays solid football. The only reason I chime in like this is because some people continuosly slander Sage and make him sound like an inferior player when its just not the case.

I'm not trying to slander him like I hate the guy, because I don't. But when I say that you don't want to see him taking 100% of the snaps this season, that's just how I beleive it is. Sage is not as good as Schaub when it comes to:

1) Reading a defense in under 3 seconds
2) Pocket presence and ability to see where the blitz is coming

To me, this means that Schaub is my guy when comparing the two because Sage has had many years of experience playing for teams in a backup capacity, and Schaub has not. Schaub looks like the better QB, even from here, because of what he has had to deal with in his starts and games.

When it was announced that Sage would be starting the games vs TB, and DEN, were you happy? Did that make you think we had a better chance of winning? I didn't, because I know that Sage is liable for a few INT's a game for the most part. Yes, he does have a few games where he does not turn it over, but those games are not the norm for him.

I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but to me, he's just not what you want in a QB that will be starting for your franchise for years. He would be a stopgap at best if he were starting, and a decent backup any other time.

Nobody's trying to say that Sage is the worst thing to happen to the QB position since Chris Weinke, but I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.

If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.

Mr PC
12-15-2007, 11:28 PM
I just wish Matt had the running game we have had lately and had Andre the whole time since he was 3-1 with him. I'm just happy to be a fighting 7-7.

not to split hairs, but Schaub is 3-2 with AJ. Remember we lost back to back games against Cleveland and Tennesse, virtually extinquishing our chances of going to the playoffs, and AJ was in for both games.


I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.
most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.


If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.

So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.

b0ng
12-16-2007, 01:14 AM
most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.

NFL GM's, Coaches, players, not you, etc etc. Thanks for trying to turn it into an insult tho :cool:



So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.

Thats right, and that's pretty much because as long as Schaub is protected well he does better with long pass plays, gets more yards per pass attempt, and is not as old or experienced, but still puts up numbers that are just as good. His ceiling is way higher, and I think his tools are much better too.

But again, my opinion doesn't matter, so I don't even see why you're trying to convince me otherwise :cool:

junior
12-16-2007, 02:56 AM
I'm not trying to slander him like I hate the guy, because I don't. But when I say that you don't want to see him taking 100% of the snaps this season, that's just how I beleive it is. Sage is not as good as Schaub when it comes to:

1) Reading a defense in under 3 seconds
2) Pocket presence and ability to see where the blitz is coming

To me, this means that Schaub is my guy when comparing the two because Sage has had many years of experience playing for teams in a backup capacity, and Schaub has not. Schaub looks like the better QB, even from here, because of what he has had to deal with in his starts and games.

When it was announced that Sage would be starting the games vs TB, and DEN, were you happy? Did that make you think we had a better chance of winning? I didn't, because I know that Sage is liable for a few INT's a game for the most part. Yes, he does have a few games where he does not turn it over, but those games are not the norm for him.

I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but to me, he's just not what you want in a QB that will be starting for your franchise for years. He would be a stopgap at best if he were starting, and a decent backup any other time.

Nobody's trying to say that Sage is the worst thing to happen to the QB position since Chris Weinke, but I think most people who have an opinion that really matters, feels that Sage is not what you want your starting QB to be.

If you don't like that sort of talk in the "Start Sage Rosenfels" thread, then sorry, but I'm not going to say that this guy is the savior because he has won 3 games.

Oh, and I'd take Schaub's stat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. More games, with only 1 more INT is always a winner to me.

i hate "pocket presence" because i dont know what that means. i think people really mean pocket awareness. having a presence in the pocket is a bad description.

and just on numbers this year
schaub has a much higher ratio of sacks to pass attempts than sage does,
sage has over 100% better td %
sage does have a 33+% higher int %,
his % of 20+ yard plays is pretty even
and his % of 40+ plays is slightly better than schaub.

also sage has only played with 1 other team he never played for washington. he had the same number of starts that schaub had in atlanta.

their career numbers would tell you that schaub is sacked at a much higher % than sage has. so in my opinion the pocket awareness actually would go to sage on numbers alone. they both make mistakes and have a problem keeping hold of the ball when hit.

so like i said in the beginning of this thread sage is as good as schaub. everything points to this except opinions, but as of right now you cant say that schaub has done better than sage, but you can say that sage has done better than schaub.

but make no mistake about it schaub will start next year as long as hes healthy there are 47 million reasons for that. but 2 more wins could really hurt this team in the long run.

we still wont make the playoffs and then the fan based could be split down the middle on this if schaub gets off to a slow start next year. but if we keep winning no one will care who is back there, i know i wont.

HoustonFrog
12-16-2007, 08:59 AM
not to split hairs, but Schaub is 3-2 with AJ. Remember we lost back to back games against Cleveland and Tennesse, virtually extinquishing our chances of going to the playoffs, and AJ was in for both games.



most people with an opinion that really matters? I dont know who you are but I dont think your opinion matters anymore than mine.



So more games with only 1 more INT is always a winner to you, but less games with 3 more TDs is not a winner, and winning games is not a winner. Cool.

You mean the Tenn game where he was 3 for 5 for 34 yards and had to leave. You are kidding right?He left with an even ballgame. This is the same stats pencil whipping that GP was trying with Anderson.

we still wont make the playoffs and then the fan based could be split down the middle on this if schaub gets off to a slow start next year. but if we keep winning no one will care who is back there, i know i wont.

This was the same thing many of us said after people said Carr whould be Sage's backup for a 6th year here, yet it didn't matter. I find it quite funny that it was still a debate after 5 years but a guy plays 11 games and people are already turning. There is nothing in his stats that suggests he should be being treated this way. It all comes down to a bandwagon mentality of people who just like to complain. If Schaub fails next year I'm all for the change but many of us are shaking our head in disbelief that it has come about for no reason(AGAIN, GO TO PAGE 4 AND LOOK AT THE RUNDOWN) after 11 games.

thunderkyss
12-16-2007, 09:12 AM
Um, no, you're completely wrong. Miami hasn't had any successful QB's because they haven't had one QB with any sort of rock solid starter-material talent. Saying you can't fault Sage for being on a bad team, makes me think David Carr wasn't at fault either

Let's see.
Action/ResultWe change our QB, we're a better team.

ConclusionQB was part of the problem.

Action/REsultThey change their QB, they continue to get worse.

ConclusionQB not necessarily the problem.

There could be, because there are a lot of very very stupid GM's in the league who have made terrible decisions throughout there career. Anybody that is willing to give up the amount of picks the Texans would demand for Sage (Because he's still under contract, and any team who would want them would have to actually trade picks for him) is not that bright really.

Let's flip the script. Let's say we were looking for a QB. We've got our eye on a 3-year back-up whose never won a game he started. Looks promising, but not proven.

We give up 2 second round picks, and trade down 4 spots in the first round. We pay this unproven career back-up like a starter, and we announce him as our starting QB.

What does that make us??

This makes no sense. Again, if any team is willing to try to get him from us this off season or next, they will have to give up quite a bit to get him. He'll have to be their starter, or else they will have traded at least 2 picks (or a really high one) to get a backup?

:redface:

Pennington and Jackson both have pretty much sucked the entire year. Phillip Rivers is woefully underperforming with the talent around him, and Eli is making ridiculous mistakes in a lot of his games. His cupcake schedule is whats making him look good. Jason Campbell is decidedly bleh.

Proving my point.

Ben Roethlisberger, haha. I'm sorry but Big Ben is a way better QB than Sage is due to the fact that he has a decent gun, is fairly accurate, and aside from 1 year, has never put up anything really worse than a 1.5 TD - 1 INT ration. Sage could never claim that. And the jury is still out on Jay Cutler, but for his rookie season, the kid is looking alright, but it's still his rookie season. Seriously though, aside from PIT and DEN most all of those teams are having QB issues of one sort or another, and would probably look to sign Sage if we were giving him away for next to nothing.

my point, with mentioning the guys I did.

Though they are starters, you can't put the ball in their hand and expect them to win the game. Nothing against them as QBs, but you're asking for trouble if you expect them to avg 30+ atts/game.

The fact is, you don't want to see Sage taking all of our offensive snaps for an entire season. You will get a metric boatload of INT's some TD's (But the ratio won't be very good. 1:1 if we are lucky), and we won't have any of the real nice deep plays we've at least seen Schaub complete this season.

If you want to believe Schaub has a stronger arm than Sage... you go right ahead. I've not seen it.

I also don't see why you think Matt Schaub(with a 1:1TD/Int ratio) would through less INTs as a starter than Sage Rosenfels(with a 3:2 TD/Int ratio).

GP
12-16-2007, 10:09 AM
You mean the Tenn game where he was 3 for 5 for 34 yards and had to leave. You are kidding right?He left with an even ballgame. This is the same stats pencil whipping that GP was trying with Anderson.


I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.

LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.

The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....

Chance_C
12-16-2007, 11:06 AM
I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.
LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.

The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....

Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.



Maybe that's what he was talking about

Hervoyel
12-16-2007, 11:34 AM
We all have an opinion about this, even those of us just lurking and not speaking out. Mine is that the primary difference in the play of the two QB's has been affected by the presence (or lack of) a running game and the presence (or lack of) Andre Johnson. That along with improved play by the defense towards the end of the season (just like last year) has made the difference for us.

AJ has an obvious effect on the running game. That's indisputable.

Week 1 & 2 we have both a running game and AJ. Matt Schaub looks good and everyone is happy.

Andre Johnson nets 142 yards and 120 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 109 yards and 119 yards respectively.
The defense has no trouble holding down two fairly bad teams.

With AJ to account for and a credible running game the Texans go 2-0.

Weeks 3-5 we lose AJ and Ahman Green starts his in and out of the lineup thing due to his knee. Nobody respects Andre Davis and Kevin Walter at this point. Ron Dayne is off to his usual slow start and Samkon Gado is useless. The wheels start to come off.

Andre Johnson is out of the picture.
The Texans run for 40, 87, and 74 yards respectively.
The defense lets the Colts, Falcons, and to some extent the Dolphins go off on them.

With Schaub now on plenty of film and all of his best weapons (at this point) on the shelf the Texans go 1-2.

We are 3-2 on the season at this time. People are still happy albeit frustrated at the injuries we've sustained. You don't see anybody crying about how Schaub has played. People seem to understand that without a running game and AJ the Texans are a different team

Weeks 6-8 The competition gets tougher while the Texans continue to lose players and struggle to run the ball.

Still no Andre Johnson but others are doing their best to pick up the slack
The Texans run for 61, 39, and 115 yards respectively.
The defense allows all three of these teams to bust 30 points.

During this stretch the "Legend of Sage" is born as he puts up good stats in Jacksonville during garbage time to contrast with a bad game from Matt Schaub and engineers a 29 point fourth quarter against Tennessee after putting us in huge hole following Matt Schaub's injury. A seed of doubt gets planted. Schaub gets hurt again at San Diego and suddenly he's fragile. You might think that the Texans ran the ball "ok" at San Diego unless you note that they were far behind at the half and everybody in the NFL will let you try and run the ball when they have you by 32 points. The Texans go 0-3.

The Texans are 3-5 at this point and I'm starting to see people turn on Matt Schaub like that number 8 makes him David Carr by proxy.

Weeks 9-11 The Texans play two games with the bye week in the middle. Ron Dayne finally starts to get in gear against a bad run defense while AJ returns.

Andre Johnson returns against New Orleans and puts up 120 yards.
The Texans run for 178 and 103 yards.
The defense hold a bad Raiders team down and makes a statement against the Saints (and Saint Reggie)

The Texans go 2-0 during this stretch.

Weeks 12-13 The Texans lose a couple of games we all thought they'd win and I blow a gasket. A few board members decide they've seen enough of Matt Schaub.

Andre Johnson gets 37 and 116 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 77 and 119 yards respectively.
The defense plays ok but can't take over either game.

Against Cleveland the Texans get nothing from the running game and AJ has a rare bad day. Cleveland's defense has an answer for him and we get shut down. A few more people start mumbling about starting Sage. Then against Tennessee "fragile" Matt gets his left shoulder separated in the first quarter and Sage takes over. Despite having 119 yards rushing from the ground game and AJ getting his hundred yards the Texans still lose by 8 after leading at the half by 3.

The Texans follow their 2-0 run with an 0-2 run. This season is kind of feast or famine for us.

Weeks 14-15 The Texans win a pair we all probably thought they would lose and suddenly Sage is our starter

Andre Johnson gets 82 and 86 yards respectively.
The Texans run for 71 and 158 respectively.
The defense allows 14 and 13 points respectively.

The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.

Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.

Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.

Rex King
12-16-2007, 12:09 PM
1. Schaub is fragile no matter WHAT type of hit he takes. Nothing less than perfect oline blocking is going to allow him to be a good QB.

2. Schaub is slow getting away from center, giving the rushing defenders an easier chance of reaching him and disrupting the play. His footwork also gets sloppy as the game goes on, appearing ot be sluggish and uncertain of where to go as he's trying to scramble...resulting in getting waxed from the blindside.

3. Schaub is not a marathon runner--He looks good in short bursts. The guy hasn't strung together more than 1 1/2 games of fast-paced football. IMO, he was gassed after the Panthers game and didn't recover.

4. He cannot sense blinside pressure and make the right decision because he's trying too hard to make something happen. Throw it away, and play another down, please.

1) Schaub has taken a lot more hits than Sage. Anybody can suffer a concussion from the kind of cheapshot he took. Anybody can get a dislocated shoulder when they have a 300 lb man pound them into the ground. In general Sage has gotten better protection than Schaub, and, in general, the QBs have had the most time when teams have had to respect play-action. In no game has Schaub experienced the luxurious pass protection that Sage got against the Broncos.

2) Schaub takes longer drops than Sage. But the gameplan also hasn't been the same with the two. For example, against the Tacks, for whatever reason, the coaches had Schaub taking 5-7 step drops, getting him killed in the process.

3) Schaub is essentially a rookie. All rookie QBs are going to have ups and downs, but Schaub has had far more ups than downs.

4) Sage has done the same thing in every game he's played. Against the Bucs, he hung onto the ball too long and fumbled. Last game he forced a throw into triple coverage that resulted in the Broncos' only TD. Even his incredible 4th quarter performance against the Tacks was necessitated by his earlier errors that resulted in 9 points, which could have easily been more. At least two of Schaub's interceptions weren't really his fault.

5) Sage has the benefit more than Schaub of having AJ and a running game.

6) Schaub is 4 years younger than Sage. He has more potential than Sage in the sense that what you see from Sage now is what you're going to get down the road. We don't know with Schaub. He could get worse, like Carr, but it's more likely he'll get better.

I'm not bashing Sage by countering your points. Their play has been pretty even in my opinion. But there will be no QB controversy in the coaches' minds when TC starts (or in mind for that matter). Now, in the (please, no) event that Schaub does regress or continues to get injured, we can thank our lucky stars we have Sage.

Rex King
12-16-2007, 12:14 PM
The Texans are 7-7 at this point in the season and for some reason we're still trying to find things to argue with each other about.

Matt vs. Sage is in full swing now and for the life of me I can't see why this is even being discussed. This "debate" is a wash. The differences between them are primarily things apart from QB play. When we run the ball we tend to win more. When Andre Johnson is on the field we tend to have a better chance of running the ball well. When we don't turn over the ball non-stop we tend to win more. When the defense takes over the game we tend to win more.

Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.

Exactly.

HoustonFrog
12-16-2007, 12:26 PM
I never ONCE mentioned Anderson, so I don't know what you're talking about.

LOL.

YOU accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, yet you have me confused with another poster.
The only PLAYERS I have mentioned in this entire debate is Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. I could care about AJ or Anderson or any of the other players. Know why? Because it's irrelevant. Sage has done more. Sage's arm looks better, his choices have been better (when he's not trying to rally us from 4 TD deficits), and he's (drum roll, please...) healthy and able to go another game after each Sunday. If I wanted to talk about any of the other players, I would begin by mentioning the depleted oline that Sage is somehow working well with. Let us all remember the first of the season when the oline was interviewed after Schaub's first game...it was all about how better QB play had finally excused the oline from the nasty criticism they received during the Carr era. Well, I would submit that somewhere along the way, Schaub's play grew worse and the oline began to look worse--You can't have it both ways. Either the oline is pure crap and NOBODY would flourish back there as QB, or the oline's play is reflective of the QB play. Pick one, please.

You've just cut yourself off at the knees by trying to tie me to Anderson--I suppose you're talking about the WR?. I have never mentioned the guy in probably three months or so (maybe back in camp), so you might want to sift through the posts and figure out who did.

If you get this wrong, what else are you wrong on? So much for you accusing me of typing out 100 mph replies....

WHOOPS, LMAOI guess you can't even keep up with you own diarrhea of the mouth...LOL..seriously, please stop. Considering Couch was gone from there in 2003, Anderson was picked up off waivers last year and played this year. Your circles are running into each other. Maybe you should remember what you decided to ramble about since you don't read and only spew. You have lost any semblance of respect you might have had after this. Go fight over something else.

Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.

HoustonFrog
12-16-2007, 12:32 PM
Hello? Anybody getting this? Your "QB controversy" is non-existent, The Texans don't appear to even be so much as considering this. It's all taking place in your collective imaginations.

THANK YOU!7 pages and it is still the point that many of us have been fighting for. Heck some of the people turning on Schaub don't even remember what they wrote 3 pages ago.

GP
12-16-2007, 01:35 PM
Derek Anderson would like to talk about this topic.

He was up-and-down in Cleveland. There was Tim Couch, then there was Charlie Frye, then there was Derek, then it was back to Tim, and then it was Derek, and then it was Frye, and over and over and over.

And I guess Derek Anderson just somehow found a way one day.

Kind of like Sage is doing, IMO.

But you go ahead and keep your thumb down on Sage. As I have said, the same old cliches are at work here: "Sage is nothing more than a backup..."

He's a backup who has started three games and has won three games.

And this TEAM that everyone says I don't support...well, they sure seem to click with Sage at the wheel.



Maybe that's what he was talking about

Was just now watching the Browns game and remembered that I did mention DEREK Anderson several days ago--I've slept since then. With us having a WR named Anderson, I was confused on the issue. My bad. I CAN apologize, by the way.

But I won't apologize about how I feel about this whole deal.

I finally get to see us string together some nice wins, without Ahman Green and with an even more depleted oline, and it's been nothing but "Can't wait until Schaub is back!"

Maybe Sage isn't the long-term answer, but I seriously doubt that Matt Schaub is it either if we want to size them up side-by-side. Matt has the brains and instinct, but I'm not so sure he has the endurance and durability to last. Call me a jerk for saying it, but that's how I feel.

We'll win one of the next two, pushing us to an 8-8 record. Four of those wins were quarterbacked by Sage and four of them by Matt--But I would def argue that the Miami win was by Kris Brown's leg more than anything else. I want us to win, and we need to see which guy is the better starter for us...that would involve a lot of factors: 1. Schaub allowing an open competition in camp, 2. Kubiak and others permitting it to happen or asking for it to happen, 3. McNair looking at the possibility of having wasted draft picks and money when he had a potential starter all along, thus not endearing Kubiak to him due to the previous QB mis-calculation by Kubiak, 4. Sage even desiring to stay at all, possibly looking at asking for a trade to a team who would give him an open competition for the starting job.

I don't really enjoy the wins so much anymore because I'm perplexed as to what the long-term answer is for this team: So many holes, and now the QB spot (for me) is a mess, as well. It's a good mess, like you guys say, but it's just one more element of surprise that I'm tired of. I want stability and the comfort of the "known commodity," of having roster depth spots NAILED DOWN. Until then, we're just living on borrowed time, IMO.

Congrats to us, we've won...and we looked pretty good on NFLN...but are we for real, or are we just pretending again? Are we the trap game where we only win when teams don't take us seriously?

If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."

b0ng
12-23-2007, 02:21 AM
Congrats to us, we've won...and we looked pretty good on NFLN...but are we for real, or are we just pretending again? Are we the trap game where we only win when teams don't take us seriously?

If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."

That's a very well thought out post, and it contained a few ounces of humble.

We could very well be pretending. But we're pretending that we are better and more talented than we've ever been. Being .500 this late in the season is a first, so I at least see improvement over the long haul. I think that even if we lose in horrific fashion I've seen enough to be pleasantly surprised and a little more excited about next season than I was this season.

If Sage helps us win convincingly and his body of work that he puts in is really quality work then why not hold a competition? I trust the coaches opinions though and I'm not going to get all mad and think somebody was screwed if Schaub starts. It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit because I think he has much more talent than Sage, but that's me. I'm not going to be angry if Sage turns in quality performances, but I'm not going to just completely write Schaub off as a complete failure before I see his second season starting.

Dan B.
12-23-2007, 03:49 PM
What if Sage stinks it up against Indy? What does that do for the controversy?

brakos82
12-23-2007, 03:50 PM
I dunno.

ObsiWan
12-23-2007, 03:55 PM
What if Sage stinks it up against Indy? What does that do for the controversy?

Pounds it flat, IMO
;o)

buddyboy
12-23-2007, 04:05 PM
If Sage has a good game vs. Indy, what will that say? If Sage helps us win convincingly vs. the Jags AND the Colts, what does that mean to you? Is it a mere "Good job, Sage The Backup..." or is it "Uhh, well...ummm..."

Uhh, well...ummm...

Hervoyel
12-23-2007, 07:37 PM
The previous post to mine was three hours ago. There's not a doubt in my mind that this thread would be busy as hell up if Sage had carved up Indy today. Instead he had the exact same kind of day that the "Start Sage" crew point to Matt Schaub having and because of that we get silence.

Is this nonsense finally over? Do we now all understand the meaning of "Career Backup"? The "Cody Carlson 2.0 experiment" should be over now.

disaacks3
12-23-2007, 08:43 PM
The previous post to mine was three hours ago. There's not a doubt in my mind that this thread would be busy as hell up if Sage had carved up Indy today. Instead he had the exact same kind of day that the "Start Sage" crew point to Matt Schaub having and because of that we get silence.

Is this nonsense finally over? Do we now all understand the meaning of "Career Backup"? The "Cody Carlson 2.0 experiment" should be over now. Not if you saw the game thread... Hell we had Schaub bashers coming out of the woodwork in "defense" of Sage.

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2007, 08:51 PM
Not if you saw the game thread... Hell we had Schaub bashers coming out of the woodwork in "defense" of Sage.

The stats don't necessarily back it up, but it feels like Sage throws a lot of back breaking picks...

TexansSeminole
12-23-2007, 08:59 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmhm.

Where's the start Sage crowd again? GP, what were the others? Can't remember. I'm sure some of you dumbos will continue to argue for him.

ObsiWan
12-23-2007, 09:09 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmhm.

Where's the start Sage crowd again? GP, what were the others? Can't remember. I'm sure some of you dumbos will continue to argue for him.

No need to get personal and stuff. lol
And, for the record, I'm in the "keep them both" camp
:)

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2007, 09:54 PM
Sage has played well, Schaub is still somewhat of an unknown because of his injuries.

The smart move is to keep both.

I wouldn't want them to compete for the starters job in camp, I think we need to give Schaub some security in his job and if he fails we have very good insurance.

Dread-Head
12-23-2007, 10:44 PM
I'm sorry. If the QB puts the ball into your hands either catch the damned thing OR bat it downwards. One of those "interceptions" bounced off a receivers hands. If you can get both your hands on it, you can catch it. If you can't then find a new career. The world will always need insurance salesmen.

b0ng
12-23-2007, 10:48 PM
I'm sorry. If the QB puts the ball into your hands either catch the damned thing OR bat it downwards. One of those "interceptions" bounced off a receivers hands. If you can get both your hands on it, you can catch it. If you can't then find a new career. The world will always need insurance salesmen.

The first two, or at least the first and the third picks were terrible throws by Sage that were nowhere near the receiver at all. Not even close.

Sage is pretty much an interception machine, and he's always been that for the most part.

Schaub is unknown, but I think with a little work he can be very suitable. I think with Sage we know we're going to get somebody who is good for 1 or 2 games, but also has the capacity to throw tons of picks.

Twitch-Houston
12-23-2007, 10:53 PM
In his post game interview Kubes said 1 INT was bad decision, 1 INT was busted route and 1 tipped ball.

Before you pile on about me defending Sage, I'm just pointing out what Kubes said. Nothing more, nothing less.

I will say this, some people on both sides of the argument can't wait till one QB has a bad game so they can come back here and say "what are you going to say now". It's almost as if some people want to be right so bad, that they almost route against our own QB just so they can "stick it" to the guy who thinks "so and so" is better than "so and so". With this type of "partisanship" amongst fans, it's a never ending battle. These threads feel just like the old Carr threads. They go round and round with the "I told you sos" and never really get anywhere. Most of it comes from frustration and we tend to take it out on each other as fans since we can't address the players directly. I think people like McClain and others monitor these threads so trust me, things get back to the players.

That was a horrible game all around. Even if our offense had got going, the defense couldn't stop anything. I played my nephew in Madden last night. He is the Portland Madden champion. He ran over me like my controller was broken. (I think I even used that excuse a few times) I felt like I was watching a replay of that game today...ha ha.

This loss was hard because the last two games made us feel like the Texans had progressed, the Colts brought the team and us fans back to reality. Whoever starts next week at QB will get my full support and I only hope both sides of the ball show up against my least favorite team the Jags.

maddogmrb
12-24-2007, 09:32 AM
[QUOTE=b0ng;810861]

Sage is pretty much an interception machine, and he's always been that for the most part.

QUOTE]


You're right his INT to TD ratio is almost as bad as Schaub's........

IMO, it appears that we have 2 quality backup QB's and no quality NFL starter.

The1ApplePie
12-24-2007, 09:36 AM
The first two, or at least the first and the third picks were terrible throws by Sage that were nowhere near the receiver at all. Not even close.

Sage is pretty much an interception machine, and he's always been that for the most part.

Schaub is unknown, but I think with a little work he can be very suitable. I think with Sage we know we're going to get somebody who is good for 1 or 2 games, but also has the capacity to throw tons of picks.

I don't think either Sage or Schaub are starting quality QBs. Matt has talent, but just isn't tough enough to last.

Texan_Bill
12-24-2007, 09:44 AM
Maybe we can package these two guys for one "his highness":

Schaub and Rosenfels have combined for 25 TD's; 23 INT's with 4,030 yards

Trade for VY:
9 TD's; 18 INT's and 2545 yards



In securing Vince, we will also: a) our defense will become great b) Kris Brown will hit 9 of 9 in a game and c) we will just simply win.

b0ng
12-24-2007, 09:48 AM
Sage is pretty much an interception machine, and he's always been that for the most part.




You're right his INT to TD ratio is almost as bad as Schaub's........

IMO, it appears that we have 2 quality backup QB's and no quality NFL starter.

Yep, Sage's failure today is a direct reflection on Matt Schaubs ability to QB and all that :rolleyes:

And you're usually a good poster here madd what the heck?

Seriously, everybody crying about Matt Schaub today better get real comfortable with the idea of him being under center to start next year. Get your hankies ready, cause some of you guys are probably going to need em.

The1ApplePie
12-24-2007, 09:49 AM
Maybe we can package these two guys for one "his highness":

Schaub and Rosenfels have combined for 25 TD's; 23 INT's with 4,030 yards

Trade for VY:
9 TD's; 18 INT's and 2545 yards



In securing Vince, we will also: a) our defense will become great b) Kris Brown will hit 9 of 9 in a game and c) we will just simply win.

Whisenhunt hates Pretty Boy Matt in Arizona, maybe we can trade for him.:splits:

One Matt that can't take a hit for a Matt that can't take a hit.

threetoedpete
12-24-2007, 10:29 AM
All I know is that we paid a very steep price for Matt. They are going to have to drive a stake into his heart befor I give up on MS. Need some patience on MS.
Either you believe we have the tallent now to make a play off push or you don't. I don't. If the HC has to spin it to sell tickets and t-shirts with the coach speak..I undertand that. Up to you to figure out which is smoke and what is NFL reality. Banging with a couple of second team guys on the line in and in the defensive back seven...O.K. fix it.

SICLICK
12-24-2007, 11:10 AM
One thing you can always be sure about Sage is that hell throw his signature interception/turnover at a critical point in the game which will ultimately result in a loss.

maddogmrb
12-24-2007, 06:15 PM
Yep, Sage's failure today is a direct reflection on Matt Schaubs ability to QB and all that :rolleyes:

And you're usually a good poster here madd what the heck?

Seriously, everybody crying about Matt Schaub today better get real comfortable with the idea of him being under center to start next year. Get your hankies ready, cause some of you guys are probably going to need em.

Nobody's crying over MS and I'm sure you're right about him being under center next year. Do you think MS would've fared better against the Colts? Facts are facts, and he ain't not no better than SR and I think they are both quality backup QB's and NEITHER has done ANYTHING to show us differently.

disaacks3
12-25-2007, 08:02 AM
Nobody's crying over MS and I'm sure you're right about him being under center next year. Do you think MS would've fared better against the Colts? Facts are facts, and he ain't not no better than SR and I think they are both quality backup QB's and NEITHER has done ANYTHING to show us differently. C'mon man - you can put some MORE negatives in that "sentence"...I have faith in ya'!

maddogmrb
12-25-2007, 08:58 AM
C'mon man - you can put some MORE negatives in that "sentence"...I have faith in ya'!

"ain't not noway nowhere"


Merry Christmas everyone! :texflag:

Goldensilence
12-25-2007, 09:57 AM
Sage for president crew?


.......
............
....


Crickets........

.....


Figures.

Thorn
12-25-2007, 11:42 AM
Sage for president crew?


.......
............
....


Crickets........

.....


Figures.


* raises hand *

I didn't see the game yesterday, but I'm still of the opinion Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league, and I'm damn glad we have him. Despite what happened, I still say that. There are very few teams in the NFL that have as good a backup as Sage.

TexansLucky13
12-25-2007, 11:54 AM
* raises hand *

I didn't see the game yesterday, but I'm still of the opinion Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league, and I'm damn glad we have him. Despite what happened, I still say that. There are very few teams in the NFL that have as good a backup as Sage.

Agreed. Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league.... but he isn't a starter.

Thorn
12-25-2007, 12:36 PM
Agreed. Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league.... but he isn't a starter.


I bet he could start for Miami right now. http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/images/graemlins/Guffaw.gif

kiwitexansfan
12-25-2007, 06:14 PM
Agreed. Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league.... but he isn't a starter.

Schaub hasn't really proven that he is a fulltime starter yet either... staying healthy would be a good start.

Andrew6
12-25-2007, 08:41 PM
I bet he could start for Miami right now. http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/images/graemlins/Guffaw.gif


He started for them 2 years ago. Last six games they won back to back.

Dread-Head
12-25-2007, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=b0ng;810861]

Sage is pretty much an interception machine, and he's always been that for the most part.

QUOTE]


You're right his INT to TD ratio is almost as bad as Schaub's........

IMO, it appears that we have 2 quality backup QB's and no quality NFL starter.



Let's see. Three interceptions.

1. tipped ball
2. bad throw
3. receiver forgot it was his job to catch the damned thing and by failing to catch it made it an easy pic for the receiver.

Sorry by my count only ONE of those counts against the man. But refresh my memory if you will. Was it Sage that let Indy score seemingly everytime they had the ball from the 2nd quarter on? Did he go out there and play strong saftey and let them run rimshot over him? I forget.

Dread-Head
12-25-2007, 09:15 PM
Sage for president crew?


.......
............
....


Crickets........

.....


Figures.


I would rather stand my ground and get my nose rubbed in it than fold like a cheap card table because Sage had ONE bad game. Kindly explain how Sage's bad game lead to the Colt's offense scoring so often. Did Sage rub off on the defense as well? I stand by my original statement.

buddyboy
12-25-2007, 11:43 PM
The thing is, in the Sage's three wins, the Defense, and the team as a whole played great. Mario Williams started pressuring the QB, the DBs started covering, the whole shebang. I'm not saying that Sage didn't do a great job QBing, but he had a LOT of help from the defense.

Now, when the Texans lose, many point fingers at the Texan D and claim that that is the reason why they lost. The simple fact is that the Texan D is also why Sage may have won those past three games.

And then you claim that only one of Sage's INTs are his fault...well, I can assure you that many of Schaub's INTs were flukes as well. So are many of his injuries, but some just can't see the reason in that and label him as "fragile", even though he's been taking cheap shots and freak landings that would injure many other QBs.

The fact of the matter is, that although the Defense didn't play well, neither did Sage. Don't defend him, he wasn't able to keep a drive going, and that wore out the defense, creating a chain reaction that just kept going and destroyed the Texans this week. We'll see how Sage performs against the Jags, but so far, Sage has beaten 3 mediocre teams and lost against one good one. Next week is a huge test to see if Sage really is as amazing as some make him out to be

mexican_texan
12-26-2007, 12:00 AM
The thing is, in the Sage's three wins, the Defense, and the team as a whole played great. Mario Williams started pressuring the QB, the DBs started covering, the whole shebang. I'm not saying that Sage didn't do a great job QBing, but he had a LOT of help from the defense.

Now, when the Texans lose, many point fingers at the Texan D and claim that that is the reason why they lost. The simple fact is that the Texan D is also why Sage may have won those past three games.

And then you claim that only one of Sage's INTs are his fault...well, I can assure you that many of Schaub's INTs were flukes as well. So are many of his injuries, but some just can't see the reason in that and label him as "fragile", even though he's been taking cheap shots and freak landings that would injure many other QBs.

The fact of the matter is, that although the Defense didn't play well, neither did Sage. Don't defend him, he wasn't able to keep a drive going, and that wore out the defense, creating a chain reaction that just kept going and destroyed the Texans this week. We'll see how Sage performs against the Jags, but so far, Sage has beaten 3 mediocre teams and lost against one good one. Next week is a huge test to see if Sage really is as amazing as some make him out to be
The defense played better because they were off the field less because the offense held the ball longer.

HJam72
12-26-2007, 04:10 AM
I think what we're looking at right now is that we have a very good backup who shouldn't be a starter, and a younger guy who still needs to get better. Schaub isn't much better, if at all, than Sage, but he is younger and we have to hope he will get better with experience. I think he will.

The question of who is better is kind of a moot point, because neither one is really starter quality right now; but, Schaub has to start somewhere.

Malloy
12-26-2007, 04:24 AM
I think what we're looking at right now is that we have a very good backup who shouldn't be a starter, and a younger guy who still needs to get better. Schaub isn't much better, if at all, than Sage, but he is younger and we have to hope he will get better with experience. I think he will.

The question of who is better is kind of a moot point, because neither one is really starter quality right now; but, Schaub has to start somewhere.

Yes, yes and... yes.

Thank you :)

b0ng
12-26-2007, 08:29 AM
Let's see. Three interceptions.

1. tipped ball
2. bad throw
3. receiver forgot it was his job to catch the damned thing and by failing to catch it made it an easy pic for the receiver.

Sorry by my count only ONE of those counts against the man. But refresh my memory if you will. Was it Sage that let Indy score seemingly everytime they had the ball from the 2nd quarter on? Did he go out there and play strong saftey and let them run rimshot over him? I forget.

Cause none of MS's INTs were tipped balls or bad receiver plays :rolleyes:

Why does Sage get the benefit of the doubt while MS gets hated on for the same things?

Hooston Texan
12-26-2007, 11:25 AM
Well, if you want to play the "was the interception the QB's fault" game, let's play.

Schaub's picks (9 total):

1. Kansas City--1st quarter, no score. Schaub threw a pass up for grabs into the endzone. AJ didn't really make a play for it, but not a wise choice by Matt.

2. Indy--3rd quarter, down 17-10. Pass tipped by receiver deep in our territory. If you are of the school of thought that a tipped pass absolves a QB of responsibility, this one is not Matt's fault.

3. Indy--3rd quarter, down 24-10. Bad read at a terrible time--JJ had just returned a punt inside the Indy 20, but Matt forced one.

4. Mia--1st quarter, up 7-3. I don't recall this pick, but I'll presume it was Matt's fault.

5. at Jax--4th quarter, down 30-10. Davis gets outfought on a slant pattern in garbage time.

6/7: at SD; first was with the score 21-3 (returned for a TD) while the second was at 28-3. Both bad passes, but we were getting routed as it was.

8: at Clev--2nd quarter, up 7-0. Ball bounced off of Daniels hands. This one was on Daniels, who was in the midst of a terrible game. This pick turned the game around completely.

9: at Clev--4th quarter (8 minutes left), down 20-10. Schaub tried to hit AJ on 2nd and 22 for a first down. Not a good play (or throw), but in that situation--down 10, 8 minutes left, deep in your own territory--you have to throw for the sticks.

So, of those 9 picks, 2 (#2 and #8) were off the hands of Matt's intended targets and another 2 (#1 and #5) were when his WRs made minimal effort for the ball. Of the other 5 picks, 4 (#3, #6, #7 and #9) came when we were trailing by at least 10 points and pressing to get back into the game.

Not that I believe any interception should be ignored; I'm not of the tipped-passes-are-forgiven school except in the most blatant of bad plays by a WR. But if the pro-Sagers are going to alibi him for such passes, then Matt should get that same acknowledgment.

EDIT: The above notwithstanding, I'm very happy we have Sage as our backup. As any fantasy football owner knows, competent QBs are in incredibly short supply in the NFL these days. So I'm not prepared to say that Sage isn't a starter-caliber QB: sadly, I can't name 32 QBs who are superior to Sage. But Schaub is one QB who is (in my acknowledgedly biased opinion). The only question in my mind is whether Matt can make it through a full season--freak hits and all--in one piece. Until that question is answered, we need a solid backup, and Sage fits that bill.

TexansSeminole
12-26-2007, 12:50 PM
Haha. Wow.

threetoedpete
12-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Agreed. Sage is one of the best backup QBs in the league.... but he isn't a{The} starter.

There fixed it for ya.

Twitch-Houston
12-29-2007, 02:44 PM
Maybe we can package these two guys for one "his highness":

Schaub and Rosenfels have combined for 25 TD's; 23 INT's with 4,030 yards



Here's the breakdown:

Player POS Att Comp Yds Pct TD INT Rate
M. Schaub QB 289 192 2241 66.4 9 9 87.2
S. Rosenfels QB 222 143 1556 64.4 14 11 85.3

**excuse the formatting above. I've messed with it and nothing works to space it out. I'm in the car on a Verizon access card and it's slow right now so I got tired of waiting for the page to load...ha ha