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DBCooper
12-09-2007, 05:22 PM
If Sage could learn to stop throwing interceptions and fumbling the ball, he would be a good QB in this league. He shows alot of good things out there.

He just needs to take care of the ball better.


Good game guys!

I'm glad there is still some fight left in these Texans!

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 05:25 PM
He looks great but he makes mistakes pretty consistantly. Today was the best game of his career, so I think you are going to see alot of "Start Sage" people around here. I see GP is already on the campaign trail.

HoustonFrog
12-09-2007, 05:33 PM
He looks great but he makes mistakes pretty consistantly. Today was the best game of his career, so I think you are going to see alot of "Start Sage" people around here. I see GP is already on the campaign trail.

I agree. What a joke. Schaub had games like this all season yet all I saw was "the guy bothers me with these costly fumbles and throws." Yet Sage does it and he "looks like a starter to me." People are just always complaining for something or being hypocrites.

Wolf
12-09-2007, 05:35 PM
it is amazing how much a QB that can read a cover 2 defense can look in a Texan offense (aka schaub and Sage) compared to the last few years

Hardcore Texan
12-09-2007, 05:37 PM
I am very thankful to have Sage.....as our back-up, he is very capable in that role and he is a GAMER. Make not mistake about it, Schaub is the QB 1 for a reason.

:fans:

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 05:45 PM
I am very thankful to have Sage.....as our back-up, he is very capable in that role and he is a GAMER. Make not mistake about, Schaub is the QB 1 for a reason.

:fans:

I agree. He is a pretty valuable guy to have, you know it. If trade offers come our way, as tempting as they may be, I don't think we should take them.

For one, we have nobody else who could fill his spot as our backup. Nobody that we'd be comfortable with anyway. We'd have to fill that spot if we got rid of Sage. Probably in the FA if not the draft; we just can't afford to be drafting a QB.

Two, I just feel comfortable with him AS A BACKUP. If he started every game of the season, I don't know how comfortable I would be. I trust him to come in and have a better chance when playing against other backups (McCown). I can say he is the best backup in the league, and if not the best he is in the top 3.

Three, we need to keep a guy in here who has been in this system for a long time as our backup. A guy like Nall has never played in OUR system. Maybe similiar systems, but not OUR system. Look at the Colts, they have had Sorgi as their backup for a couple years now, and he just signed an extension. It's important that your backup has a connection with the team, kind of like your starter does. You can see that Sage has that connection, his teamates were consistantly giving him props on his throws today.

TexanSam
12-09-2007, 05:52 PM
Sage seems to hold on to the ball too much at times. He waits too long to make the throw. It seems like he's letting the play over-develop if that makes any sense at all.

austintexanite
12-09-2007, 05:54 PM
Sage and the rest of the offense stepped up, most notably the OL, to get a victory. I like Sage, but Schaub is our qb.

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 06:30 PM
Rosenfels is 2-0 as the Texans starting QB. Today he completed 75% of his passes and threw for 3 TDs, 0 INT. He performed like a starting QB. Sage still makes mental errors too much, but he sure knows how to run this offense. He was converting on 3rd down very well, and did a good job not throwing any picks. For one of his fumbles the blame rests squarely on the O-line, but Sage does need to be more careful with the ball. Cant complain about what he has done in the starting role though, he is undefeated. Schaub better get heathy quick and get his butt back out on the field because if Sage wins these next couple games its going to be hard to justify taking him out.

imatexan
12-09-2007, 06:41 PM
I like both of our staring QB's I think they are different Sage loves the long pases and making plays while Schaub plays smarter usually

Spled
12-09-2007, 06:44 PM
The defense had his back when he fumbled.

GP
12-09-2007, 06:44 PM
He looks great but he makes mistakes pretty consistantly. Today was the best game of his career, so I think you are going to see alot of "Start Sage" people around here. I see GP is already on the campaign trail.

He's better than Schaub. End of story.

Peanut Brittle has its place: As a snack. It shouldn't be a QB, and that's what Schaub is: Fragile and stiff.

Let's be sure to earmark this thread, mods. For all the talk about how "great" Matt Schaub is supposed to be, it's been just that: A lot of talk. He hasn't proven anything to me. He looked great in the opening game, then he looked OK vs. the Panthers, and it's been downhill from there. Dude is fragile. Oh, I forgot that he got all sorts of rest and had a great game vs. Saints...only to come back the next week and get drilled (again) and now he's out (again).

Meanwhile, Sage just comes in and somehow stays healthy/upright.

What does the guy have to do for you?

He's playing on a regular basis, which is more than you can say about the "Greatest starting QB to have really never played in more than 3 games or so this year."

Man, I am just tired of the constant drum beat of silliness about our QB situation. We tried to get a guy who looked good, but the only thing wrong is that he's hurt all the time. I mean, are you guys reallllllly of the belief that Matt Schaub is never going to get hit hard again from here on out? His hit-to-bench warmer ratio is OFF THE CHARTS.

And THAT'S the scariest stat of all, IMO.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 06:52 PM
He's better than Schaub. End of story.

Peanut Brittle has its place: As a snack. It shouldn't be a QB, and that's what Schaub is: Fragile and stiff.

Let's be sure to earmark this thread, mods. For all the talk about how "great" Matt Schaub is supposed to be, it's been just that: A lot of talk. He hasn't proven anything to me. He looked great in the opening game, then he looked OK vs. the Panthers, and it's been downhill from there. Dude is fragile. Oh, I forgot that he got all sorts of rest and had a great game vs. Saints...only to come back the next week and get drilled (again) and now he's out (again).

Meanwhile, Sage just comes in and somehow stays healthy/upright.

What does the guy have to do for you?

He's playing on a regular basis, which is more than you can say about the "Greatest starting QB to have really never played in more than 3 games or so this year."

Man, I am just tired of the constant drum beat of silliness about our QB situation. We tried to get a guy who looked good, but the only thing wrong is that he's hurt all the time. I mean, are you guys reallllllly of the belief that Matt Schaub is never going to get hit hard again from here on out? His hit-to-bench warmer ratio is OFF THE CHARTS.

And THAT'S the scariest stat of all, IMO.

And for all that, you fail to remember that Sage has been given a chance to start in the NFL; and when that happens he implodes...plaind and simple. For as great as Sage's play was against Tennesse in the 1st game, we would have one the game if he had thrown just 1 less INT.

Sage is a back-up, most of the NFL knows this (but I keep forgettting that we have several posters who are smarted then the rest of the NFL) which is why he will likely not get another chance to be a starter for the rest of his career.

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 07:00 PM
And for all that, you fail to remember that Sage has been given a chance to start in the NFL; and when that happens he implodes...plain and and simple.
Plain and simply FALSE!!!! Sage Rosenfels has started a total of 4 games in his entire NFL career. He has a record of .500 as a starting QB, thats if you count the two losses he suffered playing for a crappy Dolphins team. With the Texans Sage is undefeated as a starter. He has not imploded, this is completely false. For comparison, Schaub's career record as a starting QB in the NFL is 4-9, Sage is 2-2.

For as great as Sage's play was against Tennesse in the 1st game, we would have one the game if he had thrown just 1 less INT.
We would have won if the defense had stood up, or if any number of things happened differently. Sage put the team in position to win, that loss absolutely cannot be attributed to his play. We would have zero chance of winning that game without his heroics. And just to put things in perspective, so far this season Rosenfels has thrown 2 less INTs than Schuab yet he also managed to throw 2 more TDs than Schaub has.



Sage is a back-up, most of the NFL knows this (but I keep forgettting that we have several posters who are smarted then the rest of the NFL) which is why he will likely not get another chance to be a starter for the rest of his career.
Fail.

Texanmike02
12-09-2007, 07:20 PM
Plain and simply FALSE!!!! Sage Rosenfels has started a total of 4 games in his entire NFL career. He has a record of .500 as a starting QB, thats if you count the two losses he suffered playing for a crappy Dolphins team. With the Texans Sage is undefeated as a starter. He has not imploded, this is completely false. For comparison, Schaub's career record as a starting QB in the NFL is 4-9, Sage is 2-2.

We would have won if the defense had stood up, or if any number of things happened differently. Sage put the team in position to win, that loss absolutely cannot be attributed to his play. We would have zero chance of winning that game without his heroics. And just to put things in perspective, so far this season Rosenfels has thrown 2 less INTs than Schuab yet he also managed to throw 2 more TDs than Schaub has.



Fail.

Sage? How are you? Congrats you played well today. Stop lobbying here for a starting job. You really need to take that up with the coaches.

Mike

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 07:22 PM
Sage? How are you? Congrats you played well today. Stop lobbying here for a starting job. You really need to take that up with the coaches.

Mike

Wow very creative I have never heard somebody make a joke like that before. By the way I am not lobbying for Sage to get the starting job, Im lobbying for him to get respect. He deserves respect, he has earned it. If Schaub could stay healthy and step up I would be perfectly happy with Sage in the backup role, but that doesnt mean I think Sage cant start and play effectively for this team.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Plain and simply FALSE!!!! Sage Rosenfels has started a total of 4 games in his entire NFL career. He has a record of .500 as a starting QB, thats if you count the two losses he suffered playing for a crappy Dolphins team. With the Texans Sage is undefeated as a starter. He has not imploded, this is completely false. For comparison, Schaub's career record as a starting QB in the NFL is 4-9, Sage is 2-2.

And if he was so great, why was the only job offer he recieved to be the back-up QB to one of the worst teams in the NFL?

We would have won if the defense had stood up, or if any number of things happened differently. Sage put the team in position to win, that loss absolutely cannot be attributed to his play. We would have zero chance of winning that game without his heroics. And just to put things in perspective, so far this season Rosenfels has thrown 2 less INTs than Schuab yet he also managed to throw 2 more TDs than Schaub has.

You cannot just forget that Sage threw 3 INTs that game, nor can you forget that he lost a fumble. If any of those 4 had not happened the Texans would have more then liekley won the game. I don't care what the rest of the team does, if a single player is responsible for 4 turnovers then it's fair game to say that he cost us the game; regardless of what he did otherwise. 4 TURNOVERS in a single game, how can you gloss over that?


Fail.

Sorry, but no. AS for proof, see the fact that no NFL team signed him to be their start, nor did any contending team sign him to be their back-up.

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 07:37 PM
And if he was so great, why was the only job offer he recieved to be the back-up QB to one of the worst teams in the NFL?
Because his ability has never really been displayed on the field. The Texans got very lucky to land Sage. I dont know if that was the only job offer he recieved and neither do you unless you are his agent.


You cannot just forget that Sage threw 3 INTs that game, nor can you forget that he lost a fumble. If any of those 4 had not happened the Texans would have more then liekley won the game. I don't care what the rest of the team does, if a single player is responsible for 4 turnovers then it's fair game to say that he cost us the game; regardless of what he did otherwise. 4 TURNOVERS in a single game, how can you gloss over that?

Sage had some bad turnovers in that game. The reason I can gloss over it is because his TD to turnover ratio was still decent. And because he led a heroic comback to give his team the lead with under a minute left to play. All the defense had to do was play the least bit of respectable D and the Texans would have won that game. Despite his mental errors, Sage put the team in position to win. Was he perfect? No. Did he put his team in position to win the game? You bet.


Sorry, but no. AS for proof, see the fact that no NFL team signed him to be their start, nor did any contending team sign him to be their back-up.
and this the last refuge you have, but dont mistake it as any sort of proof regarding Sage's Qb ability. Just because another team didnt give him a starting job doesnt mean that he cant do it. Your question is if Sage is good enough to be a starter, how come he plays backup for the Texans? Because we got lucky, thats why.

Texanmike02
12-09-2007, 07:37 PM
Wow very creative I have never heard somebody make a joke like that before.

Then you should really start reading more posts.

By the way I am not lobbying for Sage to get the starting job, Im lobbying for him to get respect. He deserves respect, he has earned it. If Schaub could stay healthy and step up I would be perfectly happy with Sage in the backup role, but that doesnt mean I think Sage cant start and play effectively for this team.

I'm not trying to take respect away from him. I think he is one of those that does alot with the tools he has. I just don't think he's starting material. I have nothing against him I just try to be honest in my acessments of all of our players.

Mike

sbalderrama
12-09-2007, 07:47 PM
I like Sage, he played a good game today. But, the fumbles were both times when he knew the pocket was collapsing and didn't do the smart thing. He needs to fix that. There was at least one throw today that should have been intercepted, but wasn't, so the 0 int's today is a bit misleading.

What I've seen is two QB's that are nearly identical in capabilities so far, which is pretty handy if you are the texans.

I don't think it's fair to call Schaub fragile. Pretty sure every QB in the league would have had their shoulder dislocated by that hit. It's not like some minor "bruise" or something. Its a freaking dislocation caused by a guy takling high and driving the shoulder into the ground. Give the guy a break. Sage didn't take any hits like that today.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 07:49 PM
Because his ability has never really been displayed on the field. The Texans got very lucky to land Sage. I dont know if that was the only job offer he recieved and neither do you unless you are his agent.

I'd be willing to bet you maoney that Sage recieved no other offers. Who in their right mind would want to come to Houston, espically after seeing the 5 year Bataan death march type beating that David Carr was living through? I would have taken any other job then Houston if I was an NFL QB, and yet guys like Bledsoe, VInny T and Doug Flutie all got better jpbs then Sage...wonder why?

Sage had some bad turnovers in that game. The reason I can gloss over it is because his TD to turnover ratio was still decent. And because he led a heroic comback to give his team the lead with under a minute left to play. All the defense had to do was play the least bit of respectable D and the Texans would have won that game. Despite his mental errors, Sage put the team in position to win. Was he perfect? No. Did he put his team in position to win the game? You bet.

A tunrover ration of 1 to 1 is not decent, in fact it is slightly below average. Regardless of the rest of the teams play, Sage's 4 turnovers were the main cause of us losing that game.


and this the last refuge you have, but dont mistake it as any sort of proof regarding Sage's Qb ability. Just because another team didnt give him a starting job doesnt mean that he cant do it. Your question is if Sage is good enough to be a starter, how come he plays backup for the Texans? Because we got lucky, thats why.

Just because I've never seen a pig talk doesn;t mean they can't..of ...wait they cannot can they. I trust the 32 NFL GMs to know more about any palyer in the NFL then any psoter/anlyst/reporter, and therefore if Sage winds up as the back-up for what was as the time the worst team in the NFL I'd be willing to bet because it's due to the fact that he isn't considered to be that good.

Is it possible that Sage has just taken this long to figure things out? Maybe, but I ain't holding my breath and I doubt anybody in the Texans FO is doing the same.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 07:50 PM
I agree. What a joke. Schaub had games like this all season yet all I saw was "the guy bothers me with these costly fumbles and throws." Yet Sage does it and he "looks like a starter to me." People are just always complaining for something or being hypocrites.

Maybe b/c Sage has started 2 games and won both were as Shaub has started 11 and won 4?

At least Sage atones for his mistakes, if he turns the ball over he goes right back out there and throws a TD.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 07:54 PM
Maybe b/c Sage has started 2 games and won both were as Shaub has started 11 and won 4?

At least Sage atones for his mistakes, if he turns the ball over he goes right back out there and throws a TD.

Yeah cause wins ovver Oakland and a Tampa Bay team missing their starting QB are just massivly impressive.

David Carr could have won those two games.

cuppacoffee
12-09-2007, 07:54 PM
I'm not trying to take respect away from him. I think he is one of those that does alot with the tools he has. I just don't think he's starting material. I have nothing against him I just try to be honest in my acessments of all of our players.

Mike

When it is all said and done, I don't know which qb will have proven to be the better player...idonno:

I am beginning to think that as long as Sage is backing up Schaub, he will be a starting qb for a lot of games...:shrug:

:coffee:

The1ApplePie
12-09-2007, 07:54 PM
A career back up vs a career back up making 10 times the money

They seem about even when you factor Schaub's softness into it.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 07:55 PM
Sage is a back-up, most of the NFL knows this (but I keep forgettting that we have several posters who are smarted then the rest of the NFL) which is why he will likely not get another chance to be a starter for the rest of his career.

Rich Gannon was a backkup most of his career and all he did was set a few records in a system that fit his talent and went to a Super Bowl.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 07:56 PM
A career back up vs a career back up making 10 times the money

They seem about even when you factor Schaub's softness into it.

Darius Walker and Reggie Bush?

About the same if you factor the numbers into it.

buddyboy
12-09-2007, 07:57 PM
I think an important aspect to this comparison, if that's what we're doing here, is to really take into account that Schaub is basically a rookie. This is the first time in his career that he's gotten consistent playing time and you have to give players a chance to develop.

People bashed MW all year his rookie year, and even through his second year, and suddenly, it's like, "wow." Give Schaub a chance to get used to being a starter, yes, he's started 11 games, but he's also been injured. And yes, he's been injured a LOT, but it could change.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 07:58 PM
When it is all said and done, I don't know which qb will have proven to be the better player...idonno:

I am beginning to think that as long as Sage is backing up Schaub, he will be a starting qb for a lot of games...:shrug:

:coffee:

Schaub has taken a couple of hits this year that might have sent Carr out of the game. The Haynesworth hit in the first Tennessee game, the San Diego chep shot on the INT, and the seperated shoulder hit. I don't think there is any QB, with the exception of Favre, that doesn't miss time to those hits.

buddyboy
12-09-2007, 07:59 PM
Schaub has taken a couple of hits this year that might have sent Carr out of the game. The Haynesworth hit in the first Tennessee game, the San Diego chep shot on the INT, and the seperated shoulder hit. I don't think there is any QB, with the exception of Favre, that doesn't miss time to those hits.

Definitely, that SD cheap shot was plain nasty and I think would have taken just about anyone out of the game. The crown of the helmet to his chin...doesn't take and "injury-prone" player to get hurt after that.

maddogmrb
12-09-2007, 08:00 PM
I can't believe you guys are treating Matt Schaub as if he is untouchable. Like he's been to a couple of pro bowls or something??? Basically, MS has been average at best and inconsistent.

Some of you say that Sage is, and always will be, a backup. Well, that may be so ... but ... he's the best QB the Texans have had or currently have.

Some point out his int's ........ hmmm ........ he has less than MS, and Sage has more TD's, too.

Some point out his fumbles ........ so have the other 2 #8's we've had on this team.

Sage's stats and record is better than MS.

And he's still standing!

But, I guess you're right, get Sage out of there after an impressive win so we can return to our comfort zone (less than mediocrity).:texflag:

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah cause wins ovver Oakland and a Tampa Bay team missing their starting QB are just massivly impressive.

David Carr could have won those two games.

Oh come on. At least Sage won the game he was supposed to and not made to look like a chump unlike what the Falcons did to Schaub.

Sage threw 3 TD's today againt the number 4 ranked passing defense.

How many passing TD's did Schaub have against the 31st ranked passing defense?

Goldensilence
12-09-2007, 08:00 PM
And for all that, you fail to remember that Sage has been given a chance to start in the NFL; and when that happens he implodes...plaind and simple. For as great as Sage's play was against Tennesse in the 1st game, we would have one the game if he had thrown just 1 less INT.

Sage is a back-up, most of the NFL knows this (but I keep forgettting that we have several posters who are smarted then the rest of the NFL) which is why he will likely not get another chance to be a starter for the rest of his career.

Seriously Hoth I mean the days with the Redskins and Dolphins are blips to most people. It's not like that was nearly a horrible Miami team as it is now. They jsut couldn't get a consistant passing game going and Sorry If you get beat out by Jay Fielder.....

Sure Sage has donea good job for us when it's come time. But i mean the Commander Cody comparison is all too real. Maybe Sage will go like Rich Gannon but this team for sure can't wait around 8 years for him the develop into that kind of player. Funny the begining ofthis season Schaub looks good with a healthy running game and AJ. Both go by the wayside and we slide and people here act suprised. The Game plan Kubiak wants to run is dicated by beingable to run the ball and honestly we haven't been able to regularly do it. At times as well when we have had success we often go away from it.

We're still a young team developing talent and knowing what it takes to win games in the NFL. We need to learn to do a few things well like run the ball and stop the run. Then we can layer things on.

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 08:04 PM
I'd be willing to bet you maoney that Sage recieved no other offers. Who in their right mind would want to come to Houston, espically after seeing the 5 year Bataan death march type beating that David Carr was living through? I would have taken any other job then Houston if I was an NFL QB, and yet guys like Bledsoe, VInny T and Doug Flutie all got better jpbs then Sage...wonder why?
Bledsoe, Vinny, and Flutie were all proven to be capable NFL QBs. Sage was unproven. Its no surprise that teams elected to go with the proven candidate. But you are overstepping your bounds by saying Sage got no offers from any team other than the Texans. You have no way of knowing that or proving it.


A tunrover ration of 1 to 1 is not decent, in fact it is slightly below average.

better tell that to Schaub then. He has 9 TDs and 12 turnovers on the season. Sage has 11 TDs and 10 turnovers on the season.

Boo-yah.

buddyboy
12-09-2007, 08:10 PM
Bledsoe, Vinny, and Flutie were all proven to be capable NFL QBs. Sage was unproven. Its no surprise that teams elected to go with the proven candidate. But you are overstepping your bounds by saying Sage got no offers from any team other than the Texans. You have no way of knowing that or proving it.


better tell that to Schaub then. He has 9 TDs and 12 turnovers on the season. Sage has 11 TDs and 10 turnovers on the season.

Boo-yah.

Boo-yah? How old are you? Yes, Schaub has a worse TD to TO ratio, but what Hoth was arguing was when you said that Sage had a "good" ratio. Neither have a good ratio.

And one factor that we need to consider is the all powerful Andre Johnson. Ever since he's been back he's been tearing it up and you have to believe that if Schaub had a weapon like that in his arsenal all season, things might have turned out a little different.

Errant Hothy
12-09-2007, 08:15 PM
better tell that to Schaub then. He has 9 TDs and 12 turnovers on the season. Sage has 11 TDs and 10 turnovers on the season.

Boo-yah.

What? We were discussing a single game, the Tennessee game, and the fact that if Sage had not given the ball back to the Titans 4 times we would have won that game. The one where you said he had a decent TD to Turnover ratio.

I never said that Schaub was not in need of some work, but I did say that Sage's career has shown him to be a career back-up. Could Schaub be heading the same way? Sure, but if put to me I'll take Schaub over Sage 10 out of 10 times, and I'd be willing to bet most of the NFL would follow suit.

Asd FYI, even Stewart Scott and his lazy eye no longer says boo-yah.

cuppacoffee
12-09-2007, 08:16 PM
Schaub has taken a couple of hits this year that might have sent Carr out of the game. The Haynesworth hit in the first Tennessee game, the San Diego chep shot on the INT, and the seperated shoulder hit. I don't think there is any QB, with the exception of Favre, that doesn't miss time to those hits.

This is all true, but it doesn't remove the fact that Shaub misses games due to injuries.

All NFL qb's take hard hits but not all miss games as often as Shaub seems to.

Please don't take my opinion as a slam on Shaub, it is just my perception of him.

I hope next year that Shaub plays every down of every game and goes to the pro bowl...:D

If he doesn't I am glad we have Sage to back him up.

If he does, maybe Sage plays good enough to be traded for a very high draft choice...:splits:

:coffee:

Wolf
12-09-2007, 08:16 PM
at this point they are about equal in terms of NFL QB's (average to above average)

as far as Texans go.. both are light years ahead of what we had starting or backup from the last 4 years

Mr PC
12-09-2007, 08:16 PM
Boo-yah? How old are you? Yes, Schaub has a worse TD to TO ratio, but what Hoth was arguing was when you said that Sage had a "good" ratio. Neither have a good ratio.
you dont read my posts very carefully do you. I never said that Sage's TD-turnover ratio was "good". I said "decent", because it is better than any other Texans QB has ever done in our brief franchise history.


And one factor that we need to consider is the all powerful Andre Johnson. Ever since he's been back he's been tearing it up and you have to believe that if Schaub had a weapon like that in his arsenal all season, things might have turned out a little different.
no doubt, any QB would look better with AJ/a better O-line. But it is what it is and we got to find a way to win.

PapaL
12-09-2007, 08:21 PM
Here's my Sage/Schaub observation - When Schaub has AJ it seems he's onlylooking for AJ; the whole time AJ was out he was spreading the ball around winderfully. Today it looked like Sage was simply throwing to whomever was open first and spreading it around - granted AJ did get his catches and TD.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:21 PM
This is all true, but it doesn't remove the fact that Shaub misses games due to injuries.

All NFL qb's take hard hits but not all miss games as often as Shaub seems to.

Please don't take my opinion as a slam on Shaub, it is just my perception of him.

I hope next year that Shaub plays every down of every game and goes to the pro bowl...:D

If he doesn't I am glad we have Sage to back him up.

If he does, maybe Sage plays good enough to be traded for a very high draft choice...:splits:

:coffee:


Do you people not watch the games? And by "you people" I mean the people who keep claiming Schaub is fragile. Have you not seen the hits the guy has taken? One was a cheap shot, and it gave him a concussion. Concussion is serious, and there really isn't a prevention to getting one. It just happens. The others were legitimate HARD hits. It makes me sick to see people question someones toughness after they get cheap shotted and body slammed.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:24 PM
What? We were discussing a single game, the Tennessee game, and the fact that if Sage had not given the ball back to the Titans 4 times we would have won that game. The one where you said he had a decent TD to Turnover ratio.


Maybe he would not have had 4 INT's in that game if we were not down 4 TD's coming out of the half and he would not of had to sling it around the way that he did.

I think, IMO, that comparing Schaub to Sage is like comparing apples to apples. I don't see a big difference in performance when either one is out on the field and the team seams to respond about the same whether its Sage or Schaub barking out the plays.

The only real difference is that Sage can take a hit.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:25 PM
The only real difference is that Sage can take a hit.

When did Sage get cheap shotted resulting in a concussion?

When did Albert Haynesworth pick Sage up and slam him onto the ground all the while landing on top of him with his 300 lbs of body weight?

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:26 PM
Do you people not watch the games? And by "you people" I mean the people who keep claiming Schaub is fragile. Have you not seen the hits the guy has taken? One was a cheap shot, and it gave him a concussion. Concussion is serious, and there really isn't a prevention to getting one. It just happens. The others were legitimate HARD hits. It makes me sick to see people question someones toughness after they get cheap shotted and body slammed.

Every QB takes hard hits and continue to play, see Steve McNair.

Some QB are also more susceptible to concussions, see Trent Green.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Every QB takes hard hits and continue to play, see Steve McNair.

Some QB are also more susceptible to concussions, see Trent Green.

You become more susceptible after you have had one. They happen more and more as you get more and more of them.

Schaub has no history of concussions. You act as if he is weak because he took a cheap shot in the face. That's a weak assessment. The guy was just turning around and he took a flagrant shot to the face. Give the guy a break, how many QBs take cheap shots like that?

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:28 PM
When did Sage get cheap shotted resulting in a concussion?

When did Albert Haynesworth pick Sage up and slam him onto the ground all the while landing on top of him with his 300 lbs of body weight?

The Albert hit was legal. The league said it was so and no fine was given and there was no penalty from the refs.

Also he was not picked up, he was pancaked.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:30 PM
The Albert hit was legal. The league said it was so and no fine was given and there was no penalty from the refs.

Also he was not picked up, he was pancaked.

Never said it wasn't legal. It's just a hard hit. There isn't a whole lot to do in that situation. And he did get picked up. When you hit someone with alot of momentum and wrap your tackle up, the person getting tackled leaves the ground. That means that Haynesworth has him in his grasp and is pulling/shoving him to the ground as well. Also known as, BODY SLAM.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:31 PM
You become more susceptible after you have had one. They happen more and more as you get more and more of them.



So now that he has had one he is more likely to get them? So he is damaged goods from here on out?

This makes even a bigger case for Sage.

When is Tebow coming out?

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:35 PM
So now that he has had one he is more likely to get them? So he is damaged goods from here on out?

This makes even a bigger case for Sage.

When is Tebow coming out?

You don't know anything about concussions do you?

Why don't you wikipedia it, come back with the information, and make your argument.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:37 PM
You don't know anything about concussions do you?

Why don't you wikipedia it, come back with the information and make your argument.

Did you or did you not just say you are more susceptible to concussions? Your words.

If you are so knowledgeable why don't you enlighten us?

PapaL
12-09-2007, 08:41 PM
Wikipedia - the place where anyone can write anything about something they know nothing about.

I wouldn't place any medical wellness on wikipedia.

adam
12-09-2007, 08:41 PM
Not to say that I'm on the start Sage bandwagon, but I think that it's a little sad that when Schaub makes costly throws and fumbles he is just "developing", but when Rosenfels does similar things...he is just displaying his "inability to be a starting QB". It's a little unfair, especially considering that Schaub has lost us more games than Rosenfels has. I also don't find it fair to blame the first Tennessee loss on Sage. Had Dunta made a stop on the one pass, we would have won the game. Does this mean that Dunta displayed an inability to be a starter? Didn't think so. Sage went out there and did what he had to do, and did it well enough. Would Schaub has been able to bounce back and throw four forth quarter TDs? It's hard to tell, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Sage has potential, and I would definitely hang onto him if it were up to me. Depending on how the Schaub experiment pans out in the future, we may need Sage to step in as the starter for our team. I would much rather have Sage starting than an unproven rookie/a old free agent who is on the decline.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 08:47 PM
Wikipedia - the place where anyone can write anything about something they know nothing about.

I wouldn't place any medical wellness on wikipedia.

That was kind of the point.

Did you or did you not just say you are more susceptible to concussions? Your words.

If you are so knowledgeable why don't you enlighten us?

You said "So he is damaged goods from here on out?"

My answer is why don't you look up cases of football players and concussions and see what that shows. That would give you a good idea.

Zach Thomas has played through concussions his entire career AS A LINEBACKER. It's troubling him now, but that's after many, many years of playing in the NFL.

Schaub has had one concussion. It's not a red flag, but if he gets another, it could be. He may become more susceptible to them now, but no reason to consider him damaged goods and get rid of him, or quit playing him.

Also, if your going to use Trent Green as an example, which is out of place to begin with because they were both kind of freak injuries (his last two concussions), you have got to take into account the severity of the injury. Green's concussion as a Chief was pretty severe. There was questions on wither or not he would play again.


The subject was him taking these hits. People get concussions, it just happens. To say one QB is more susceptible to a concussion over another when both have no history of concussions is not really something you can prove.

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 08:57 PM
That was kind of the point.



You said "So he is damaged goods from here on out?"

My answer is why don't you look up cases of football players and concussions and see what that shows. That would give you a good idea.

Zach Thomas has played through concussions his entire career AS A LINEBACKER. It's troubling him now, but that's after many, many years of playing in the NFL.

Schaub has had one concussion. It's not a red flag, but if he gets another, it could be. He may become more susceptible to them now, but no reason to consider him damaged goods and get rid of him, or quit playing him.

Also, if your going to use Trent Green as an example, which is out of place to begin with because they were both kind of freak injuries (his last two concussions), you have got to take into account the severity of the injury. Green's concussion as a Chief was pretty severe. There was questions on wither or not he would play again.


The subject was him taking these hits. People get concussions, it just happens. To say one QB is more susceptible to a concussion over another when both have no history of concussions is not really something you can prove.

I said damaged goods b/c you said:
You become more susceptible after you have had one. They happen more and more as you get more and more of them.

Trent Green has had concussion his whole career. Schaub has only started for less than one season and now has a concussion.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 09:00 PM
Trent Green has had concussion his whole career. Schaub has only started for less than one season and now has a concussion.

How can you compare Trent Green to Schaub if Schaub has only had one concussion?

You said "Some QB are also more susceptible to concussions, see Trent Green." What makes you think Schaub will turn out this way?

Let's compare Schaub's situation to someone who has had multiple severe concussions in his career, that should be fair!

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 09:13 PM
You said "Some QB are also more susceptible to concussions, see Trent Green." What makes you think Schaub will turn out this way?



What in Schaub's injury riddled first season (beyond one concussion, also bruised ribs and a dislocated shoulder.) makes you think he won't turn out like Trent Green?

And again to quote you:


You become more susceptible after you have had one. They happen more and more as you get more and more of them.

TexansSeminole
12-09-2007, 09:19 PM
And again to quote you:

I know what I said, there is no point in quoting it 3 or 4 times. My point is that you can't say someone who has never had a concussion is more prone to concussion than anyone else that hasn't had a concussion. It's just about the hit they take. Schaub getting his first concussion proves nothing if your trying to say he is fragile.

One small concussion is no reason to think he is damaged goods. Give it a break.

What in Schaub's injury riddled first season (beyond one concussion, also bruised ribs and a dislocated shoulder.) makes you think he won't turn out like Trent Green?

Your extremely close minded if that's the way you think. I guess Jacoby Jones is just another Jerome Mathis. Got injured, hasn't looked good since. Receiver? I don't know, looks like only a returner. Must be another Jerome Mathis, right?

TEXANRED
12-09-2007, 09:30 PM
I know what I said, there is no point in quoting it 3 or 4 times. My point is that you can't say someone who has never had a concussion is more prone to concussion than anyone else that hasn't had a concussion. It's just about the hit they take. Schaub getting his first concussion proves nothing if your trying to say he is fragile.

One small concussion is no reason to think he is damaged goods. Give it a break.

Your the one who said that I didn't know anything about concussions and how I need to visit Wikipedia.

Obviously your the fore running expert on concussions so by what you said I would have to assume that since Schaub has now had a concussion he is more likely to continue to get them.



Your extremely close minded if that's the way you think. I guess Jacoby Jones is just another Jerome Mathis. Got injured, hasn't looked good since. Receiver? I don't know, looks like only a returner. Must be another Jerome Mathis, right?

Well he hasn't looked good since. So its one of two things, he is scared of getting hurt or he is a crap receiver and punt returner.

Its one of the two, you pick.

Dan B.
12-09-2007, 11:32 PM
Wikipedia - the place where anyone can write anything about something they know nothing about.

I wouldn't place any medical wellness on wikipedia.


Says the guy commenting on a message board.

Why would you place any more/less faith in wikipedia's info than this site's? Both link their sources to allow you to determine veracity. Both require a little more than blind faith on the part of the reader. And both are very valuable tools in our modern world.

Texanmike02
12-10-2007, 12:02 AM
I can't believe you guys are treating Matt Schaub as if he is untouchable. Like he's been to a couple of pro bowls or something??? Basically, MS has been average at best and inconsistent.

Some of you say that Sage is, and always will be, a backup. Well, that may be so ... but ... he's the best QB the Texans have had or currently have.

Some point out his int's ........ hmmm ........ he has less than MS, and Sage has more TD's, too.

Some point out his fumbles ........ so have the other 2 #8's we've had on this team.

Sage's stats and record is better than MS.

And he's still standing!

But, I guess you're right, get Sage out of there after an impressive win so we can return to our comfort zone (less than mediocrity).:texflag:

It was a win. And it was in impressive fashion. But it was against an average team without their starting QB. They are an NFC team who plays in pretty weak division. Its not like the win has us talking about the playoffs next year or anything. Schaub hasn't had AJ for a large percentage of his snaps. Oh but none of that matters.


Schaub has alot to prove that he can still play in this league. But he has shown flashes. Lets also forget that neither is playing behind a decent line and our running game is less than spectacular. Before we worry about who wins the starting job, lets worry about putting talent around them.

Mike

Dan B.
12-10-2007, 12:41 AM
Let's also not forget that the second and third string offensive linemen Sage performed so well with today are the guys he's been practicing with all year. They know his cadences and his rhythms.

Schaub will be a fine QB. His style is perfect for the type of offense we are attempting to implement. Once he develops the same rapport with his offense that Sage has had a chance to build over the last three years, he will be a winner. I'm eager to see Schaub with more familiarity under this system -- more no huddles and audibles. This offense is handicapped through both injuries and players who are attempting to learn a new system and implement it immediately.

barrett
12-10-2007, 01:18 AM
Why would you place any more/less faith in wikipedia's info than this site's? Both link their sources to allow you to determine veracity. Both require a little more than blind faith on the part of the reader. And both are very valuable tools in our modern world.


There are definitely some tools on this message board. (not directed at you)

Go Texans.

ReliantTexan
12-10-2007, 01:31 AM
Well he hasn't looked good since. So its one of two things, he is scared of getting hurt or he is a crap receiver and punt returner.

Its one of the two, you pick. No it's not one of the two. You ever think he's just having a bad stretch of games. Yes that does happen. a few bad games or even a season does not define a player's career. So far Schaub has missed 2 games, 2! One of them from an illegal hit which caused a concussion, therefore a player has to sit out the following week, whether he's healthy enough to play or not.

threetoedpete
12-10-2007, 01:40 AM
Do you people not watch the games? And by "you people" I mean the people who keep claiming Schaub is fragile. Have you not seen the hits the guy has taken? One was a cheap shot, and it gave him a concussion. Concussion is serious, and there really isn't a prevention to getting one. It just happens. The others were legitimate HARD hits. It makes me sick to see people question someones toughness after they get cheap shotted and body slammed.

What I find truly remarkble is the fact that of all the misery we've had, we have people who run helter skelter to start a QB controvery. Is that it ? Haven't hooked anyone up to the whipping post in awhile and the whip is dry and you're getting itchy ? Look the odds are you are not going to see Matt the rest of the season. You can work youselve into a rage over this, but the two thing I know are this: First, the back up always looks like the real deal after an improbable win.
Secondly...this HC does not throw his veterans under the bus. My big thing is I hope and pray that we didn't waiste two twos on the guy. And the jury is still out on that one. Just enjoy the victory and stow this crap. If there is a change coming it'll happen next August. All of this is just dogs in the pit and it ain't worth warm spit as far as substance is concerned.

austintexanite
12-10-2007, 02:44 AM
Just enjoy the victory and stow this crap. If there is a change coming it'll happen next August. All of this is just dogs in the pit and it ain't worth warm spit as far as substance is concerned.

Nice way to cap off this thread. I guess some just like to :stirpot:, I actually see this as a blessing for either trade bait or we keep both.

PapaL
12-10-2007, 06:08 AM
Says the guy commenting on a message board.

Why would you place any more/less faith in wikipedia's info than this site's? Both link their sources to allow you to determine veracity. Both require a little more than blind faith on the part of the reader. And both are very valuable tools in our modern world.

Says the guy responding...

If your resorting to wikipedia for medical consultation - you have a serious medial coverage problems.

This, if you haven't noticed, is a site dedicated to people who share a passion for a game. No special skills/knowledge required. You don't have to practice football for 7 years to gain the title of "fan".

Going to Wiki for information on a concussion is like going to men's bathroom and jotting down the "for a good time call" numbers - you never know what you'll get.

maddogmrb
12-10-2007, 09:35 AM
I can't believe you guys are treating Matt Schaub as if he is untouchable. Like he's been to a couple of pro bowls or something??? Basically, MS has been average at best and inconsistent.

Some of you say that Sage is, and always will be, a backup. Well, that may be so ... but ... he's the best QB the Texans have had or currently have.

Some point out his int's ........ hmmm ........ he has less than MS, and Sage has more TD's, too.

Some point out his fumbles ........ so have the other 2 #8's we've had on this team.

Sage's stats and record is better than MS.

And he's still standing!

But, I guess you're right, get Sage out of there after an impressive win so we can return to our comfort zone (less than mediocrity).:texflag:

It is amazing that as fans with a team that desperately needs positives ....... we consider a QB change to be a negative when the backup is playing better and winning games. Maybe Matt Schaub will eventually come around to everybody's expectations but, Sage has been the best QB in this town since he got here (well except for Kevin Kolb) and why is that a negative?

Do we want to continue to be less than mediocre and show allegiance to a player who is not playing as well as his backup or do we go with the man who is playing better and doing more for the benefit of the team? Do we stay with Schaub because he is "supposed" to be our saviour or do we go with the guy who is actually performing better?:fans:

GP
12-10-2007, 09:50 AM
Do you people not watch the games? And by "you people" I mean the people who keep claiming Schaub is fragile. Have you not seen the hits the guy has taken? One was a cheap shot, and it gave him a concussion. Concussion is serious, and there really isn't a prevention to getting one. It just happens. The others were legitimate HARD hits. It makes me sick to see people question someones toughness after they get cheap shotted and body slammed.

Matt Schaub was not aware of his surroundings when he was cheap-shotted by a Chargers player--That's on HIM.

Likewise, he has been roughed up on two separate hits that had Schaub rolling out, trying to buy time, and Schaub doesn't sense that there's an angry man running up on the blinside.

All these hits you speak of are happening because Matt Schaub is zoning out, mentally, when he needs to get out of the tackle box and just throw it away. Yes, that's good effort to stick with your receivers THAT long...and no, it's not wise if you plan on playing starting QB in the NFL. I'd take a wasted play any day over a QB on I.R.

Besides, all of this is just showing me that Matt Schaub is doomed to get hit. Like I've said (and you'll come around after awhile) Matt Schaub is (1) Slow getting away from center, which is giving the dlinemen an advantage on the pass rush, and (2) He is not sensing blinside pressure, even on a roll-outs when he should be looking for pursuing defenders, and (3) He is fragile--I don't care what type of hits they were, he's taking them and he's on the bench. Let's cut the macho "Could YOU take that hit?" attitude.

For all the hype about how Matt Schaub was a mental player, I think Sage Rosenfels is running rings around him. We can chalk that up to Sage having been around Kubiak and this system a year longer than Schaub--I can "get" that--but it is what it is, IMO.

This has been an exercise in logic. Sage Rosenfels has been just as good of a QB as Matt Schaub, and I don't see Matt Schaub suddenly getting faster on his feet nor do I see him magically able to sense blindside pressure.

GP
12-10-2007, 09:54 AM
It is amazing that as fans with a team that desperately needs positives ....... we consider a QB change to be a negative when the backup is playing better and winning games. Maybe Matt Schaub will eventually come around to everybody's expectations but, Sage has been the best QB in this town since he got here (well except for Kevin Kolb) and why is that a negative?

Do we want to continue to be less than mediocre and show allegiance to a player who is not playing as well as his backup or do we go with the man who is playing better and doing more for the benefit of the team? Do we stay with Schaub because he is "supposed" to be our saviour or do we go with the guy who is actually performing better?:fans:

Bingo.

Best post of this entire thread.

I 100% agree. We have fans who are blind to the production (and the idea of promotion) of a backup QB just because "Sage has always been a backup QB..."

Ego has no place in a team game--Sage is winning games and staying upright. What else do we want?

GP
12-10-2007, 09:57 AM
Nice way to cap off this thread. I guess some just like to :stirpot:, I actually see this as a blessing for either trade bait or we keep both.

That's about the only solice I am taking in this whole situation.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 10:06 AM
Bingo.

Best post of this entire thread.

I 100% agree. We have fans who are blind to the production (and the idea of promotion) of a backup QB just because "Sage has always been a backup QB..."

Ego has no place in a team game--Sage is winning games and staying upright. What else do we want?

No, we have fans who are just plain bandwagoners and embarrassing to listen to regarding the real facts of the matter. You completely dismiss the same mistakes Sage makes and yet pile on Schaub despite him being ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories for half the season. You show up to pile on when one guy gets a win despite almost handing it to the other team with turnovers. I like Sage alot but you sound like a psycho ex-girlfriend with these lame posts. Again, it is obvious to see where some people are coming from and I have to bend over to get there. You aren't real football fans because you were backup QB rooting all along. Go look at the stats with turnovers and explain the real differences in football, especially concerning the injury situation that one QB dealt with. Oh yeah, do you know why Sage had to bring us back against the Titans.....his turnovers...forgot that.

Again, I like Sage and am happy for the guy but you people act like gilted girlfriends and it is comical. I can see why people bail on the boards after every week listening to the opinions change like the wind.

Kaiser Toro
12-10-2007, 10:10 AM
For the first time ever we are solid at the QB position regardless of who we start or have coming off the bench. Outside of that, the only controversy are those that have a controversy agenda - media, fans, etc.

Controversy is paying a QB like Carr millions of dollars. What we have now is Nirvana, not a Cancer sent from Heaven in Steel Blue packaging.

Texan_Bill
12-10-2007, 10:13 AM
No, we have fans who are just plain bandwagoners and embarrassing to listen to regarding the real facts of the matter. You completely dismiss the same mistakes Sage makes and yet pile on Schaub despite him being ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories for half the season. You show up to pile on when one guy gets a win despite almost handing it to the other team with turnovers. I like Sage alot but you sound like a psycho ex-girlfriend with these lame posts. Again, it is obvious to see where some people are coming from and I have to bend over to get there. You aren't real football fans because you were backup QB rooting all along. Go look at the stats with turnovers and explain the real differences in football, especially concerning the injury situation that one QB dealt with. Oh yeah, do you know why Sage had to bring up back against the Titans.....his turnovers...forgot that.

Again, I like Sage and am happy for the guy but you people act like gilted girlfriends and it is comical. I can see why people bail on the boards after every week listening to the opinions change like the wind.


http://www.proppersource.com/images/inventory/applause-sign1.jpg

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 10:24 AM
For the first time ever we are solid at the QB position regardless of who we start or have coming off the bench. Outside of that, the only controversy are those that have a controversy agenda - media, fans, etc.

Controversy is paying a QB like Carr millions of dollars. What we have now is Nirvana, not a Cancer sent from Heaven in Steel Blue packaging.

Could not agree more. It isn't like there is a reason to try and throw one guy under the bus.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 10:46 AM
Matt Schaub was not aware of his surroundings when he was cheap-shotted by a Chargers player--That's on HIM.

WOW at this comment. Just wow.

This comment tells me just about all I need to know.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 11:53 AM
For the first time ever we are solid at the QB position regardless of who we start or have coming off the bench. Outside of that, the only controversy are those that have a controversy agenda - media, fans, etc.

Controversy is paying a QB like Carr millions of dollars. What we have now is Nirvana, not a Cancer sent from Heaven in Steel Blue packaging.

If we could some how fuse the two together we would have one QB with 20 TD's 16 INT and 3000+ yards.

Hervoyel
12-10-2007, 01:12 PM
Matt Schaub played most of the season without Andre Johnson. That should tell most people all they need to know. Wins against the Chiefs and Panthers came with AJ in the lineup, chaos followed his injury.

Sage has one more year in this offense than Matt. I'd expect him to be a little more comfortable with certain aspects of it. Sage beat Oakland and Tampa Bay. Against the Bucs he had AJ in the lineup and anyone who doesn't understand that we're almost a completely different team with AJ on the field is just too stupid to discuss this stuff with. As for the Raiders I submit that David Carr "beat" the Raiders with negative passing yards. Beating the Raiders isn't exactly indisputable evidence that you are ready to start in the NFL.

I don't even begin to understand where the "Schaub is fragile" comments come from. That can't be said after one season as a starter. That's not enough time to definitively prove that someone is fragile. That's particularly true considering that nature of some of his injuries this year. There aren't a lot of QB's who don't go out with a concussion after the San Diego game hit. Guys get seperated shoulders from being driven into the ground at odd angles. David "Iron Man" Carr had a similar injury back in 2003 I believe. Nobody ever accused Carr of being fragile.

If he misses a similar amount of time next season from shots that shouldn't put guys in the injury report then maybe there's a case for it but to point to this year and say he's fragile just makes people look stupid. To compare him to Steve McNair is even further off base. Steve McNair was entirely atypical.

Buffi2
12-10-2007, 01:26 PM
Welcome Back!:mail:

Your voice of reason and sanity (most of the time) has been missed.

As usual, excellent post. AJ does make a huge difference in the way the offense plays - even a makeshift offense. It is that unstated, quiet, lead by example Thing.
:texflag:

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 01:33 PM
Matt Schaub played most of the season without Andre Johnson. That should tell most people all they need to know. Wins against the Chiefs and Panthers came with AJ in the lineup, chaos followed his injury.

Sage has one more year in this offense than Matt. I'd expect him to be a little more comfortable with certain aspects of it. Sage beat Oakland and Tampa Bay. Against the Bucs he had AJ in the lineup and anyone who doesn't understand that we're almost a completely different team with AJ on the field is just too stupid to discuss this stuff with. As for the Raiders I submit that David Carr "beat" the Raiders with negative passing yards. Beating the Raiders isn't exactly indisputable evidence that you are ready to start in the NFL.

I don't even begin to understand where the "Schaub is fragile" comments come from. That can't be said after one season as a starter. That's not enough time to definitively prove that someone is fragile. That's particularly true considering that nature of some of his injuries this year. There aren't a lot of QB's who don't go out with a concussion after the San Diego game hit. Guys get seperated shoulders from being driven into the ground at odd angles. David "Iron Man" Carr had a similar injury back in 2003 I believe. Nobody ever accused Carr of being fragile.

If he misses a similar amount of time next season from shots that shouldn't put guys in the injury report then maybe there's a case for it but to point to this year and say he's fragile just makes people look stupid. To compare him to Steve McNair is even further off base. Steve McNair was entirely atypical.

Well nice to have you back. Thanks for actually talking reason in this place.

Hervoyel
12-10-2007, 01:37 PM
I didn't leave, I just quit posting for a few days and decided to approach the rest of the season with a big fat "I could care less" attitude. I'm spending my Sundays in the yard raking leaves or putting up Christmas lights. I'm just trying to quit living and dying with the Texans for a while because I'm sick of mostly dying every weekend.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 02:09 PM
Matt Schaub played most of the season without Andre Johnson. That should tell most people all they need to know. Wins against the Chiefs and Panthers came with AJ in the lineup, chaos followed his injury.

Sage has one more year in this offense than Matt. I'd expect him to be a little more comfortable with certain aspects of it. Sage beat Oakland and Tampa Bay. Against the Bucs he had AJ in the lineup and anyone who doesn't understand that we're almost a completely different team with AJ on the field is just too stupid to discuss this stuff with. As for the Raiders I submit that David Carr "beat" the Raiders with negative passing yards. Beating the Raiders isn't exactly indisputable evidence that you are ready to start in the NFL.

I don't even begin to understand where the "Schaub is fragile" comments come from. That can't be said after one season as a starter. That's not enough time to definitively prove that someone is fragile. That's particularly true considering that nature of some of his injuries this year. There aren't a lot of QB's who don't go out with a concussion after the San Diego game hit. Guys get seperated shoulders from being driven into the ground at odd angles. David "Iron Man" Carr had a similar injury back in 2003 I believe. Nobody ever accused Carr of being fragile.

If he misses a similar amount of time next season from shots that shouldn't put guys in the injury report then maybe there's a case for it but to point to this year and say he's fragile just makes people look stupid. To compare him to Steve McNair is even further off base. Steve McNair was entirely atypical.

Thank you.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 02:12 PM
I didn't leave, I just quit posting for a few days and decided to approach the rest of the season with a big fat "I could care less" attitude. I'm spending my Sundays in the yard raking leaves or putting up Christmas lights. I'm just trying to quit living and dying with the Texans for a while because I'm sick of mostly dying every weekend.

Welcome to many of my Sundays along with running errands with a 3 1/2 month old. Its nice to get out and put it out of the mind. I do the same thing with certain teams.

Dan B.
12-10-2007, 02:24 PM
Says the guy responding...

If your resorting to wikipedia for medical consultation - you have a serious medial coverage problems.

This, if you haven't noticed, is a site dedicated to people who share a passion for a game. No special skills/knowledge required. You don't have to practice football for 7 years to gain the title of "fan".

Going to Wiki for information on a concussion is like going to men's bathroom and jotting down the "for a good time call" numbers - you never know what you'll get.

I had a serious medical situation in 2004, and was a patient at MD Anderson at the time. Much of what I learned about my illness, as well as treatments for it, I learned through wikipedia. Should one blindly trust everything they read there? Of course not. (Gotta say it's been my experience they are more accurate than any mainstream media outlet though). About the only person you can trust in that situation is your doctor, and I haven't seen many head trauma specialists post their opinion here. I don't blindly trust anything someone with a fake name on a board says either -- this is not a knock on you or anyone here, by the way. I love this board for its diverse range of opinion. I verify what someone says both here and on any wiki, though.

I love wikis as a source for simple basic info. If it's wrong, it can be changed. What's written there is not gospel. It is altered as new facts or information come to light. If someone changes it to say something patently false, the link can be changed back.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 02:58 PM
Matt Schaub played most of the season without Andre Johnson. That should tell most people all they need to know. Wins against the Chiefs and Panthers came with AJ in the lineup, chaos followed his injury.

Sage has one more year in this offense than Matt. I'd expect him to be a little more comfortable with certain aspects of it. Sage beat Oakland and Tampa Bay. Against the Bucs he had AJ in the lineup and anyone who doesn't understand that we're almost a completely different team with AJ on the field is just too stupid to discuss this stuff with. As for the Raiders I submit that David Carr "beat" the Raiders with negative passing yards. Beating the Raiders isn't exactly indisputable evidence that you are ready to start in the NFL.
I think Matt has more experience in this offense than Sage. Matt started 11 games for the Texans, and he played this same system in college. Sage has started 2 games for the Texans. Of course AJ is our best player and of vital importance. But him being out is no excuse for losing games. Especially not the Browns game, in which AJ played the whole way through. The Browns game was THE game of our season, if we win that game we could be going to the playoffs. We'd be 7-6 and hold the tiebreaker over the Browns. I like Schaub and think he can be a great QB for us but I wont draw up excuses for him. That game he couldnt get it done, even with AJ. When Rosenfels played against the Titans and the Raiders with AJ out, he put us in position to win both games. Then he played with AJ against a stout Tampa defense and put us in position to win again.


I don't even begin to understand where the "Schaub is fragile" comments come from. That can't be said after one season as a starter. That's not enough time to definitively prove that someone is fragile. That's particularly true considering that nature of some of his injuries this year. There aren't a lot of QB's who don't go out with a concussion after the San Diego game hit. Guys get seperated shoulders from being driven into the ground at odd angles. David "Iron Man" Carr had a similar injury back in 2003 I believe. Nobody ever accused Carr of being fragile.

If he misses a similar amount of time next season from shots that shouldn't put guys in the injury report then maybe there's a case for it but to point to this year and say he's fragile just makes people look stupid. To compare him to Steve McNair is even further off base. Steve McNair was entirely atypical.

The reason I think Schaub needs to toughen up is not just because of the SD injury, that wasnt his fault. Before that he left the Jax game after a hit, and left the Titans game after a hit as well, Then he left the SD game after a hit. He rested for two weeks and then looked good against NO but then he gets hit and leaves the Tennesse game. Thats a lot of games to be leaving during your first season as a starting QB. Not all QBs can take hits as well as others. That has do with many factors: field awareness, flexibility, stiffness, physical strength, mental toughness, tolerance for pain, heart, etc. Schaub needs to be able to take a hit and keep playing, especially if he is going to play behind the Texans O-line. Brett Favre has the same injury as Schaub but he came back and threw 3 TDs leading his team to victory without missing a game.

Chance_C
12-10-2007, 03:16 PM
This is all true, but it doesn't remove the fact that Shaub misses games due to injuries.

All NFL qb's take hard hits but not all miss games as often as Shaub seems to.

Concussion, dislocated shoulder.......wimp!!!!!!! :sarcasm:

3) He is fragile--I don't care what type of hits they were, he's taking them and he's on the bench. Let's cut the macho "Could YOU take that hit?" attitude.

He is not fragile, I care what kind of hits they were, now can we cut the macho "He is fragile" attitude? Why are you here? You hate this team remember?

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 03:21 PM
(3) He is fragile--I don't care what type of hits they were, he's taking them and he's on the bench. Let's cut the macho "Could YOU take that hit?" attitude.

Your always using these kind of statements. In another thread you said something about "quit using your ego". Now your talking about, "Let's cut the macho". Your the one calling Schaub fragile and injury prone due to some monstor hits and a cheap shot. Your the one acting as if the hit isn't that bad. Look in the damn mirror. It's not "Let's see if you can take that hit", it's let's see you use some common sense when judging toughness.

I think Matt has more experience in this offense than Sage. Matt started 11 games for the Texans, and he played this same system in college. Sage has started 2 games for the Texans. Of course AJ is our best player and of vital importance. But him being out is no excuse for losing games. Especially not the Browns game, in which AJ played the whole way through. The Browns game was THE game of our season, if we win that game we could be going to the playoffs. We'd be 7-6 and hold the tiebreaker over the Browns. I like Schaub and think he can be a great QB for us but I wont draw up excuses for him. That game he couldnt get it done, even with AJ. When Rosenfels played against the Titans and the Raiders with AJ out, he put us in position to win both games. Then he played with AJ against a stout Tampa defense and put us in position to win again.

Do players not learn anything in practice? Do you not become more familiar with a system in practice? I don't understand. Game experience is probably the only experience that can get you ready to play QB in the NFL, but there are alot of things you can do to become familiar with a system. The point is that Sage has been here for almost 2 years now, and Schaub has been here for almost 1 year.

The Browns was the game of the season? What are you smoking pal?

We are a 6-7 team and we have not won a division game this season. If we win one of the games against the Titans, we are ahead of them in the divisional and playoff race. If we still lose to the Titans in both games, but beat the Jags or the Colts earlier in the year, we are tied with the Titans in the division, and therefore have a better chance at the playoffs. The Browns game means SQUAT compared to any of these 4 games. Division games are always more important than any other game. We aren't going to be able to use that tiebreaker against the Browns if we let the Jags and Titans pick up win after win against us. 4 out of our 7 losses are to division opponents.

The Browns game was the most important game of the season, ha. Pass that shiz over here.

The reason I think Schaub needs to toughen up is not just because of the SD injury, that wasnt his fault. Before that he left the Jax game after a hit, and left the Titans game after a hit as well, Then he left the SD game after a hit. He rested for two weeks and then looked good against NO but then he gets hit and leaves the Tennesse game. Thats a lot of games to be leaving during your first season as a starting QB. Not all QBs can take hits as well as others. That has do with many factors: field awareness, flexibility, stiffness, physical strength, mental toughness, tolerance for pain, heart, etc. Schaub needs to be able to take a hit and keep playing, especially if he is going to play behind the Texans O-line. Brett Favre has the same injury as Schaub but he came back and threw 3 TDs leading his team to victory without missing a game.


So to prove your point you compare him to arguable the toughest QB in the game?

Also, Brett doesn't have the same injury as Schaub. Schaub has multiple injuries, from his hip to his head.

Chance_C
12-10-2007, 03:28 PM
So to prove your point you compare him to arguable the toughest QB in the game?

Disclaimer: I love Brett Favre.
But.....didn't he come out of the most important game of the season against the
Cowboys with numbness in his fingers? Hit his hand on an opponents helmet as he was throwing the ball. Must have been bad, because he is definately the toughest QB I can remember. Difference is, he's had years to prove his toughness. I solicit the fact that he might just have missed some time himself if his shoulder was separated. In short, I think the jury is still out on Schaub being fragile. But to say that he is fragile as a result of the time that he's missed this
year (types of hits factored in) is in a nutshell, laughable.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 03:33 PM
I think Matt has more experience in this offense than Sage. Matt started 11 games for the Texans, and he played this same system in college. Sage has started 2 games for the Texans. Of course AJ is our best player and of vital importance. But him being out is no excuse for losing games. Especially not the Browns game, in which AJ played the whole way through. The Browns game was THE game of our season, if we win that game we could be going to the playoffs. We'd be 7-6 and hold the tiebreaker over the Browns. I like Schaub and think he can be a great QB for us but I wont draw up excuses for him. That game he couldnt get it done, even with AJ. When Rosenfels played against the Titans and the Raiders with AJ out, he put us in position to win both games. Then he played with AJ against a stout Tampa defense and put us in position to win again.



The reason I think Schaub needs to toughen up is not just because of the SD injury, that wasnt his fault. Before that he left the Jax game after a hit, and left the Titans game after a hit as well, Then he left the SD game after a hit. He rested for two weeks and then looked good against NO but then he gets hit and leaves the Tennesse game. Thats a lot of games to be leaving during your first season as a starting QB. Not all QBs can take hits as well as others. That has do with many factors: field awareness, flexibility, stiffness, physical strength, mental toughness, tolerance for pain, heart, etc. Schaub needs to be able to take a hit and keep playing, especially if he is going to play behind the Texans O-line. Brett Favre has the same injury as Schaub but he came back and threw 3 TDs leading his team to victory without missing a game.

There is so much I want to say but I'll just start with the bolded. First you pretty much lost all credibility when you said AJ being out is no excuse for losing games. You are right, losing your best offensive weapon should be cake for a first year QB to shake off and just start losing games for a franchise that has never had a winning record...oh yeah you lost your center and RB too. No problem.:sarcasm:

In the Titans game, which Sage are you talking about...the one that put us in a massive hole because of turnovers or the one that gave us a chance to win?You can't have one without the other. You guys have selective amnesia when it comes to bits and pieces of games. Just like Schaub playing well in some losses just goes over your heads because he is supposed to bring us a championship and be Tom Brady in Year #1.

Oh, by the way, Troy Aikman played 11 games his first year. He missed 5 due to a broken finger. His backup Steve Walsh led them to their only victory vs. Washington. Glad they didn't just throw him away for being injury prone since he had some concussions that year too. Where do you guys come up with your football talk...seriously.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 03:45 PM
Do players not learn anything in practice? Do you not become more familiar with a system in practice? I don't understand. Game experience is probably the only experience that can get you ready to play QB in the NFL, but there are alot of things you can do to become familiar with a system. The point is that Sage has been here for almost 2 years now, and Schaub has been here for almost 1 year.
This is something I have noticed. People have no problems making excuses for Schaub. Injuries, inexperience, no AJ, etc. God forbid we judge our QBs based on how the perform on the field. When Sage does well, excuses again but this time to downplay what he has done. He looks good in preseason but preseason is worthless. He destroyed the Titans last season filling in for Carr but that was just garbage time. He threw four 4th quarter TD passes against them this season, but he had turnovers so that negates it. Sure he beat the Raiders but that was only against Oakland at home so that negates it. Sure he beat Tampa Bay but... wait what was the excuse again?


The Browns was the game of the season? What are you smoking pal?
Im drinking Koolaid. We went into that game at 5-5. The Brown were also 5-5. Both teams contending for the wild card. If we win that game, our chances of going to the playoffs are very good. If we lose that game, our chances of going to the playoffs almost evaporate. So it was the most pivotal game of the season. If we cant beat the Browns, then we dont deserve to be in the playoffs quite frankly. If we win that game we have momentum going into the Titans game. Then the Titans game would have been even more important.


So to prove your point you compare him to arguable the toughest QB in the game?

Also, Brett doesn't have the same injury as Schaub. Schaub has multiple injuries, from his hip to his head.
Ok, how bout I compare him to David Carr. Schaub is the better QB no doubt about that. But lets look at toughness. David took a beating while he was here, 250 sacks and in 5 years he only missed a total of 5 starts. Schaub will probably miss more time this year than David Carr did in 5 years as our QB. Yes, I do believe QB toughness is important, and I think that Matt needs to get better in that dept. He has only been sacked 16 times this season yet poor baby he is beat up from his hip to his head. Brett hasnt missed a game in 15 years because of injury. He separated his left shoulder which is exactly what happened to Matt. But Favre didnt miss a game and led his team to victory. Thats what a franchise QB does. Thats what I want our QB to do.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 03:46 PM
Matt Schaub played most of the season without Andre Johnson. That should tell most people all they need to know. Wins against the Chiefs and Panthers came with AJ in the lineup, chaos followed his injury.

Sage has one more year in this offense than Matt. I'd expect him to be a little more comfortable with certain aspects of it. Sage beat Oakland and Tampa Bay. Against the Bucs he had AJ in the lineup and anyone who doesn't understand that we're almost a completely different team with AJ on the field is just too stupid to discuss this stuff with. As for the Raiders I submit that David Carr "beat" the Raiders with negative passing yards. Beating the Raiders isn't exactly indisputable evidence that you are ready to start in the NFL.

I can agree with this. However, Oaklands pass defense is ranked 5th and Sage threw 181 yards, 1 TD and 1 int with no AJ to throw to. He managed the game, stayed calm, and made the plays that mattered.

Just like the TB game (4th ranked pass defense), stayed calm, made the throws he had to make, 205 yards 3 TD's 0 int with AJ who had 1 TD.

And there were plenty of games that Carr had negative passing yards in, the Steelers game pops out in my mind.

I don't even begin to understand where the "Schaub is fragile" comments come from. That can't be said after one season as a starter. That's not enough time to definitively prove that someone is fragile. That's particularly true considering that nature of some of his injuries this year. There aren't a lot of QB's who don't go out with a concussion after the San Diego game hit. Guys get seperated shoulders from being driven into the ground at odd angles. David "Iron Man" Carr had a similar injury back in 2003 I believe. Nobody ever accused Carr of being fragile.

Matt hurt his ribs in the Indy game in week 3, got knocked out of the Tenn. game, got knocked out of the SD game, did not play in the Oakland game, got knocked out of the Tenn. game (again) and did not play the TB game, and most likely not this Denver game.

So out of the possible 14 starts he has played 11, did not finish 3 of those games he started, benched once, and now missed 3 games, possibly the rest of the season.

So really Matt has only started and finished 7 games.

That is the reason he is getting the fragile tag.

If he misses a similar amount of time next season from shots that shouldn't put guys in the injury report then maybe there's a case for it but to point to this year and say he's fragile just makes people look stupid. To compare him to Steve McNair is even further off base. Steve McNair was entirely atypical.

Oh no, not the "Lets give'em one more year" statement. By then it could be to late, we traded Sage for a pair of second rounders and get stuck with Brandon Boyd as the starter for the majorityu of the the year.

And McNair was the example I gave about how some are more fragile than others. McNair, man of steel, Green, not so much. LT man of steel, Adrian Peterson, not so much.

The Texans are on to something special, they are on the cusp of responsibility and i would hate to see that ruined by having another 2-14 season b/c our starting QB can't finish a season.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 03:51 PM
There is so much I want to say but I'll just start with the bolded. First you pretty much lost all credibility when you said AJ being out is no excuse for losing games.
If AJ is out then the team has an excuse to lose, this is exactly what you are saying. This one player decides whether we win or lose, thats what you are saying. Nevermind that we still have Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Owen Daniels, Jacoby Jones, and a 40 million dollar QB. If AJ is out its a guaranteed free pass because he is a great WR and we cannot win without him. I dont buy that for one second, maybe I just have higher expectations for this team than you do.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 03:53 PM
If AJ is out then the team has an excuse to lose, this is exactly what you are saying. This one player decides whether we win or lose, thats what you are saying. Nevermind that we still have Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Owen Daniels, Jacoby Jones, and a 40 million dollar QB. If AJ is out its a guaranteed free pass because he is a great WR and we cannot win without him. I dont buy that for one second, maybe I just have higher expectations for this team than you do.

Not higher expectations, just fewer excuses.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 03:57 PM
If AJ is out then the team has an excuse to lose, this is exactly what you are saying. This one player decides whether we win or lose, thats what you are saying. Nevermind that we still have Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Owen Daniels, Jacoby Jones, and a 40 million dollar QB. If AJ is out its a guaranteed free pass because he is a great WR and we cannot win without him. I dont buy that for one second, maybe I just have higher expectations for this team than you do.

That isn't it at all. But it hampers your ability to win. How is that hard to see? In the NFL the difference between winning and losing is TALENT. How is this hard to see?Its like talking to a wall with some of you. What were your expectations...the Super Bowl with no starting center, no Pro Bowl WR and a bevy of backup RBs with a 1st year QB?Give me a break.

As for injuries no one has an excuse for Aikman, Steve Young and others being injured early in careers because of the team around them but it is off limits for a first year QB for the losing Texans to get hurt. Some of you are completely off your rocker. Sorry. You guys have a problem looking at the reality of the stats that Schaub actually put up vs record while you ignore Sages turnovers and say he does well. The funny part is that people like Sage and yet a few bandwagoners with nothing to add want to always love the backup. Its ridiculous. Its about having a good team, not running off every guy within a year because you think he didn't fit your toughness scale.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 04:06 PM
This is something I have noticed. People have no problems making excuses for Schaub. Injuries, inexperience, no AJ, etc. God forbid we judge our QBs based on how the perform on the field. When Sage does well, excuses again but this time to downplay what he has done. He looks good in preseason but preseason is worthless. He destroyed the Titans last season filling in for Carr but that was just garbage time. He threw four 4th quarter TD passes against them this season, but he had turnovers so that negates it. Sure he beat the Raiders but that was only against Oakland at home so that negates it. Sure he beat Tampa Bay but... wait what was the excuse again?

Where are my excuses? I have said nothing against Sage except that he makes mistakes pretty consistantly, just that Schaub should be the starter over him. I never made any excuses for Schaub, other than his injuries are not a product of weakness.


Im drinking Koolaid. We went into that game at 5-5. The Brown were also 5-5. Both teams contending for the wild card. If we win that game, our chances of going to the playoffs are very good. If we lose that game, our chances of going to the playoffs almost evaporate. So it was the most pivotal game of the season. If we cant beat the Browns, then we dont deserve to be in the playoffs quite frankly. If we win that game we have momentum going into the Titans game. Then the Titans game would have been even more important.

Do you not understand that if we don't win our division games, that tie breaker doesn't mean jack. I don't think you do.

If any game is the most important game thus far, it was the Colts game at the beginning of the year. We were 2-0, our best start ever, and we were heading into our first division game against the SuperBowl champs. If we win that game, we start out in division play and the entire season on an extremely high note. Since losing that game we have lost 3 more division games. Also after that game, we lost alot of confidence.

You can't get swept by teams you play twice a year. Not in our division. That Browns game could have been important had we won some of these division games to get ourselves a chance at the playoffs. The Browns could end up not even being in the playoff race come end of season. Your division opponents are always more important.

Ok, how bout I compare him to David Carr. Schaub is the better QB no doubt about that. But lets look at toughness. David took a beating while he was here, 250 sacks and in 5 years he only missed a total of 5 starts. Schaub will probably miss more time this year than David Carr did in 5 years as our QB. Yes, I do believe QB toughness is important, and I think that Matt needs to get better in that dept. He has only been sacked 16 times this season yet poor baby he is beat up from his hip to his head. Brett hasnt missed a game in 15 years because of injury. He separated his left shoulder which is exactly what happened to Matt. But Favre didnt miss a game and led his team to victory. Thats what a franchise QB does. Thats what I want our QB to do.

If anyone had any doubt that you didn't know what you were talking about, here is their proof that you don't. Half of Carr's sacks he got touched after he jumped onto the ground. I'll let you continue on with this argument, should be fun to watch.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 04:08 PM
That isn't it at all. But it hampers your ability to win. How is that hard to see? In the NFL the difference between winning and losing is TALENT. How is this hard to see?Its like talking to a wall with some of you. What were your expectations...the Super Bowl with no starting center, no Pro Bowl WR and a bevy of backup RBs with a 1st year QB?Give me a break.

Dude will continue to change your words up and try to make you say something you aren't. Lost cause at this point. Read his David Carr comparison. That should be enough.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 04:08 PM
That isn't it at all. But it hampers your ability to win. How is that hard to see? In the NFL the difference between winning and losing is TALENT. How is this hard to see?Its like talking to a wall with some of you. What were your expectations...the Super Bowl with no starting center, no Pro Bowl WR and a bevy of backup RBs with a 1st year QB?Give me a break.

Obviously it is easier to win with a probowl WR than w/o and I never said otherwise. But this is football and players get injured. If AJ goes down the team needs to be able to win without him, I will not make an excuse for losing just because AJ is out, apparently this is acceptable for you.

As for injuries no one has an excuse for Aikman, Steve Young and others being injured early in careers because of the team around them but it is off limits for a first year QB for the losing Texans to get hurt. Some of you are completely off your rocker. Sorry. You guys have a problem looking at the reality of the stats that Schaub actually put up vs record while you ignore Sages turnovers and say he does well. The funny part is that people like Sage and yet a few bandwagoners with nothing to add want to always love the backup. Its ridiculous.
I really hope you arent calling me a bandwagon fan. It seems like you are but Im going to give you the benifit of the doubt and pretend you are not. I've seen both QBs play and Ive seen both of their stats. Schaub has more turnovers than Sage. Schaub also has less TDs than Sage. Schaub's record with the Texans is 4-7, Sage's record for the Texans is 2-0. I've never said that Sage doesnt have a TO problem because he does need to get better in that respect. But the W is the most important stat in all of football.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 04:12 PM
Obviously it is easier to win with a probowl WR than w/o and I never said otherwise. But this is football and players get injured. If AJ goes down the team needs to be able to win without him, I will not make an excuse for losing just because AJ is out, apparently this is acceptable for you.

Severe contradiction to your entire argument.

I really hope you arent calling me a bandwagon fan. It seems like you are but Im going to give you the benifit of the doubt and pretend you are not. I've seen both QBs play and Ive seen both of their stats. Schaub has more turnovers than Sage. Schaub also has less TDs than Sage. Schaub's record with the Texans is 4-7, Sage's record for the Texans is 2-0. I've never said that Sage doesnt have a TO problem because he does need to get better in that respect. But the W is the most important stat in all of football.

Does the fact that Schaub threw 1.8 times as many passes as Sage mean anything to you? That's just pass attempts. That doesn't count for how many times he scrambled, and dropbacks overall.

You are manipulating stats. Repeating them will not do much for your argument.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Severe contradiction to your entire argument.

no contradictions at all. Players get injured and teams have to be able to win without them. Marvin Harrison is injured.


Does the fact that Schaub threw 1.8 times as many passes as Sage mean anything to you? That's just pass attempts. That doesn't count for how many times he scrambled, and dropbacks overall.

You are manipulating stats. Repeating them will not do much for your argument.

Schaub has thrown nearly twice as many passes as Sage has. But Sage has scored more TDs than Schaub. That does mean something to me. Like I said before, Sage needs to protect the ball better. Especially going up against Denver, they have the best secondary in the NFL. They will be looking to pick Sage off on every throw. And they have been getting a good pass rush going and our O-line is on life support. Sage will need to protect the ball better. He is not perfect ok, he his not without faults. But he has stepped up and shown he has what it takes to win as a starting QB with this team. That is why I respect him because he plays with heart and earned my respect.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:18 PM
Does the fact that Schaub threw 1.8 times as many passes as Sage mean anything to you? That's just pass attempts. That doesn't count for how many times he scrambled, and dropbacks overall.



MS has more pass attempts, and 2 fewer TD's and 2 more INT's than Sage.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 04:25 PM
You are manipulating stats. Repeating them will not do much for your argument.

Ok how bout a different stat. TD to turnover ratio. Judging only by this year:

Sage Rosenfels is more likely to score a TD than give up a turnover
Matt Schaub is more likely to turn the ball over than score a TD

did I manipulate anything here, or is that just the truth?

HOU-TEX
12-10-2007, 04:32 PM
no contradictions at all. Players get injured and teams have to be able to win without them. Marvin Harrison is injured.



Schaub has thrown nearly twice as many passes as Sage has. But Sage has scored more TDs than Schaub. That does mean something to me. Like I said before, Sage needs to protect the ball better. Especially going up against Denver, they have the best secondary in the NFL. They will be looking to pick Sage off on every throw. And they have been getting a good pass rush going and our O-line is on life support. Sage will need to protect the ball better. He is not perfect ok, he his not without faults. But he has stepped up and shown he has what it takes to win as a starting QB with this team. That is why I respect him because he plays with heart and earned my respect.

MS has more pass attempts, and 2 fewer TD's and 2 more INT's than Sage.

Y'all can continue to rant and rave about Sage being better, more durable, etc., but in the end Schaub is and will be the starter for the Texans. So y'all are basically peeing against the wind. I consider Sage to be a proven backup and Schaub as a yet to prove anything. I will say, Schaub will have the chance to prove himself with the Texans. He was brought in to be our starter and will remain our starter until Kubiak decides otherwise.

Carry on. :cool:

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 04:36 PM
MS has more pass attempts, and 2 fewer TD's and 2 more INT's than Sage.

Ok how bout a different stat. TD to turnover ratio. Judging only by this year:

Sage Rosenfels is more likely to score a TD than give up a turnover
Matt Schaub is more likely to turn the ball over than score a TD

did I manipulate anything here, or is that just the truth?

Dude, Schaub played twice the snaps. Twice the opportunity to turn the ball over.

That's like saying someone is less prone to turnovers because he has less turnovers than the next guy in a basketball game, yet he played less minutes than the guy. Yea, that's manipulation.

With as many throws as Schaub has (289 compared to Sage's 159), and going by how often Sage throws a pick, Sage would have 13 interceptions. He also has 4 fumbles, 3 lost. Schaub has 7 fumbles, 3 lost. With as many dropbacks as Schaub, your looking at around 8 fumbles, 6 lost. That's if he continues to play as he is now. This doesn't take into account the wear and tear of the season, and the fact that PEOPLE DO GET INJURED and have bad games. Where are these manipulated stats again?

I'll combat your next argument, which is that Sage would throw 20 TDs if going by the same formula. The point isn't that Sage can't throw touchdowns. The point is that Sage turns the ball over far too often to be playing that much in a season.

Your argument's against Schaub are weak. You claim he is peanut brittle. Your arguments for Sage are coming off his best game ever. So continue to smoke that skunky shiz you got next to you, watch the next Texans game, and get back to me.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:39 PM
Y'all can continue to rant and rave about Sage being better, more durable, etc., but in the end Schaub is and will be the starter for the Texans. So y'all are basically peeing against the wind. I consider Sage to be a proven backup and Schaub as a yet to prove anything. I will say, Schaub will have the chance to prove himself with the Texans. He was brought in to be our starter and will remain our starter until Kubiak decides otherwise.

Carry on. :cool:

I can deal with that. MS is not a bad QB. As I stated before he has only started and finished 7 games this year. That is an alarming number when you consider he has only been sacked 16 times.

Maybe he is just having a run of bad luck, maybe not. The Texans are on the verge of turning the corner, so are you willing to take the chance that Matt can stay healthy for an entire season and lead us to where we want to go?

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:42 PM
Dude, Schaub played twice the snaps. Twice the opportunity to turn the ball over.

That's like saying someone is less prone to turnovers because he has less turnovers than the next guy in a basketball game, yet he played less minutes than the guy. Yea, that's manipulation.

With as many throws as Schaub has (289 compared to Sage's 159), and going by how often Sage throws a pick, Sage would have 13 interceptions. He also has 4 fumbles, 3 lost. Schaub has 7 fumbles, 3 lost. With as many dropbacks as Schaub, your looking at around 8 fumbles, 6 lost. That's if he continues to play as he is now. Where are these manipulated stats again?

I'll combat your next argument, which is that Sage would throw 20 TDs if going by the same formula. The point isn't that Sage can't throw touchdowns. The point is that Sage turns the ball over far too often to be playing that much in a season.

Your argument's against Schaub are weak. You claim he is peanut brittle. Your arguments for Sage are coming off his best game ever. So continue to smoke that skunky shiz you got next to you, watch the next Texans game, and get back to me.

That would also mean that Matt has twice the opportunity to throw twice as many TD's. And if memory serves only 1 game has Sage had AJ to throw to and he still has 2 more TD's than MS.

Your entire argument is invalid.

At this point in there career, Sage is the better QB.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 04:44 PM
Obviously it is easier to win with a probowl WR than w/o and I never said otherwise. But this is football and players get injured. If AJ goes down the team needs to be able to win without him, I will not make an excuse for losing just because AJ is out, apparently this is acceptable for you.

I really hope you arent calling me a bandwagon fan. It seems like you are but Im going to give you the benifit of the doubt and pretend you are not. I've seen both QBs play and Ive seen both of their stats. Schaub has more turnovers than Sage. Schaub also has less TDs than Sage. Schaub's record with the Texans is 4-7, Sage's record for the Texans is 2-0. I've never said that Sage doesnt have a TO problem because he does need to get better in that respect. But the W is the most important stat in all of football.

I'm not calling you bandwagon. I'm saying that alot of fans have a bandwagon mentailty when it comes to QBs when in reality we are a team with less talent than most that is going to lose. Your Harrison example is perfect. Harrison doesn't make as much as a difference because they are a Super Bowl caliber team with Pro Bowl WRs on the other side and a Pro Bowl TE. That is huge. We don't have that talent luxury. Since when were we able to lsoe any Pro Bowl type player since we have had maybe 3?I'm not sure what you all expected of Schaub but I expected a season of ups and downs with the showing that he could lead us in the future and right now I'm happy. I can't judge a history of injuries since, as I pointed out, guys like Aikman and others have had similar problems. We will see how he rebounds.

That would also mean that Matt has twice the opportunity to throw twice as many TD's. And if memory serves only 1 game has Sage had AJ to throw to and he still has 2 more TD's than MS.

Your entire argument is invalid.

At this point in there career, Sage is the better QB.

Based on nothing that you have pointed out and minimal games for the one guy?If it makes you feel better.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 04:46 PM
That would also mean that Matt has twice the opportunity to throw twice as many TD's. And if memory serves only 1 game has Sage had AJ to throw to and he still has 2 more TD's than MS.

Your entire argument is invalid.

At this point in there career, Sage is the better QB.

I've already combated this argument in my post, but good job reading.

You guys are rediculous with your stats. The point in my stats is to show you how dumb your argument is. You want a guy to drop back 289 times and throw 13 interceptions and lose 6 fumbles. That's in his best season ever. The 20 TDs don't even matter if you turn the ball over that often. I'll take less turnovers for less touchdown passes anyday. Especially on a team that LEADS THE LEAGUE IN TURNOVERS. But yea, they don't matter that much. OMG 20 TDs!

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 04:50 PM
Dude, Schaub played twice the snaps. Twice the opportunity to turn the ball over.
Twice the opportunity to score points also. TD to turnover ratio is a stat that still applies. Schaub got a lot more throws than Sage but still his TD to turnover is worse. Schaub has more turnovers than touchdowns, and Sage has more touchdowns than turnovers. Its a simple fact that you arent grapsing very well.


With as many throws as Schaub has (289 compared to Sage's 159), and going by how often Sage throws a pick, Sage would have 13 interceptions.

yeah he would also have 20 touchdowns. 20 TD to 13 INT. you left that part out.

He also has 4 fumbles, 3 lost. Schaub has 7 fumbles, 3 lost. With as many dropbacks as Schaub, your looking at around 8 fumbles, 6 lost. That's if he continues to play as he is now. Where are these manipulated stats again?

Even if you project Sage's turnovers over as many plays as Schaub has, the TD to turnover ratio would still be more favorable. Sage is more likely to score a touchdown than turn the ball over. He turns the ball over more than Schaub but he also scores more TDs than Schaub so it balances out.


Your argument's against Schaub are weak. You claim he is peanut brittle. Your arguments for Sage are coming off his best game ever. So continue to smoke that skunky shiz you got next to you, watch the next Texans game, and get back to me.

I know you arent talking to me now because I never said that Schaub was peanut brittle. I like Schaub and think he can be a good QB for the Texans but he will need to toughen up there is no way around that. Ive watched the Texans since day one so you really dont need to talk down to me like that. If we had started Sage over D Carr like I suggested last season might have turned out better.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:51 PM
I've already combated this argument in my post, but good job reading.

You guys are rediculous with your stats. The point in my stats is to show you how dumb your argument is. You want a guy to drop back 289 times and throw 13 interceptions and lose 6 fumbles. That's in his best season ever. The 20 TDs don't even matter if you turn the ball over that often. I'll take less turnovers for less touchdown passes anyday. Especially on a team that LEADS THE LEAGUE IN TURNOVERS. But yea, they don't matter that much. OMG 20 TDs!

Good job with your reading comprehension. How does Schaub have less turn overs that Sage? MS has 9 INTS and 7 fumbles (3 lost) giving him 9 TD's to 12 Turnovers.

How do you defend that?

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 04:51 PM
I've already combated this argument in my post, but good job reading.

You guys are rediculous with your stats. The point in my stats is to show you how dumb your argument is. You want a guy to drop back 289 times and throw 13 interceptions and lose 6 fumbles. That's in his best season ever. The 20 TDs don't even matter if you turn the ball over that often. I'll take less turnovers for less touchdown passes anyday. Especially on a team that LEADS THE LEAGUE IN TURNOVERS. But yea, they don't matter that much. OMG 20 TDs!

EXACTLY!!As I have said all along, people like to skip the important part when they see TDs. However when I pointed out Schaubs actual stats, even in losing games last week Red dismissed them and kept bringing up Atlanta. I'm too the point of just letting them have their made up controversy.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:52 PM
Based on nothing that you have pointed out and minimal games for the one guy?If it makes you feel better.

Based on winning and being able to finish the game?

Hervoyel
12-10-2007, 04:54 PM
I can agree with this. However, Oaklands pass defense is ranked 5th and Sage threw 181 yards, 1 TD and 1 int with no AJ to throw to. He managed the game, stayed calm, and made the plays that mattered.

Just like the TB game (4th ranked pass defense), stayed calm, made the throws he had to make, 205 yards 3 TD's 0 int with AJ who had 1 TD.

And there were plenty of games that Carr had negative passing yards in, the Steelers game pops out in my mind.


My definition of "plenty" and yours are clearly far apart. I count a handful at best and the Oakland game was one of his worst ever (excluding games in which he was injured and did not play the entire four quarters). It's meaningless because the point had little to do with how many games David Carr won with poor passing. The point was that the Texans beat them last year in the same basic manner that they beat them in 2006. We ran the ball (Dayne had 95 yards in 2006, 122 yards this year) and their QB stunk up the joint (Aaron Brooks in 2006 and Josh McCown this year). Sage had an ok game but he didn't craftily guide the Texans to the win by using his amazing "Sage Powers" or anything like that. He just had to not throw 3 interceptions like McClown did.


Matt hurt his ribs in the Indy game in week 3, got knocked out of the Tenn. game, got knocked out of the SD game, did not play in the Oakland game, got knocked out of the Tenn. game (again) and did not play the TB game, and most likely not this Denver game.

So out of the possible 14 starts he has played 11, did not finish 3 of those games he started, benched once, and now missed 3 games, possibly the rest of the season.

So really Matt has only started and finished 7 games.

That is the reason he is getting the fragile tag.

And hopefully that's a bad run and won't be repeated next season but only time will tell. If he goes through 16 games next year without getting hurt nobody will think about it. If he takes another cheap-shot helmet to the chin in the first game of 2009 however people will begin calling him fragile again. I'm in the "Whatever" crowd on this one. If he proves to be fragile over a couple of seasons then I'll agree that he's fragile. One year does not make a guy fragile. Lots of players have long careers punctuated by a year or two where they got beat up. It happens.


Oh no, not the "Lets give'em one more year" statement. By then it could be to late, we traded Sage for a pair of second rounders and get stuck with Brandon Boyd as the starter for the majorityu of the the year.

And McNair was the example I gave about how some are more fragile than others. McNair, man of steel, Green, not so much. LT man of steel, Adrian Peterson, not so much.

The Texans are on to something special, they are on the cusp of responsibility and i would hate to see that ruined by having another 2-14 season b/c our starting QB can't finish a season.


You need to get past the fear that whatever QB you aren't thrilled with might be David Carr. You need to understand that QB's take time to develop and that lines take time to gel (even though we may be tired of hearing that term). Systems take time to implement on both sides of the ball and two camps is better than one. Matt Schaub appears to have more upside than Sage Rosenfels at this point in their respective careers. I urge you to believe me when I tell you that if Sage Rosenfels repeats the performance he gave Sunday for the next three weeks nobody will be lining up to be the first to give the Houston Texans two second round picks for him.

Of course Steve McNair is more durable than Trent Green (or Chris Chandler to use the perfect fragile QB example). Following his first season playing nobody could have predicted that. "Plenty" of very effective QB's have played well and won in the NFL without being indestructable. Joe Montana was "durable" for seven years and then missed 8 games in 1986. I guess he was "fragile" that year. Following 1986 he never again played all 16 games of a season and missed all of 1991 and almost all of 1992 (he appeared in one game that year) with injuries. Warren Moon played 17 years but he only played 16 games in four of those seasons. Jim Kelly though must have been a durable QB in his time right? 10 seasons and like Moon he only had 16 starts in four of them.

I'll wait and see if he gets hurt regularly in 2008 before I draw any conclusions about Matt Schaub. I've like what I've seen out of him this year (and I think Sage has played great too by the way) so I hope this has just been one of those campaigns that take a lot out of your team. We have been literally eaten alive by the injury bug this year so the fact that our starting QB has been beat up doesn't surprise me one bit.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 04:54 PM
EXACTLY!!As I have said all along, people like to skip the important part when they see TDs. However when I pointed out Schaubs actual stats, even in losing games last week Red dismissed them and kept bringing up Atlanta. I'm too the point of just letting them have their made up controversy.

There is only one important stat, the "W"

MS, 11 starts 4 "W's"

Sage, 2 starts, 2 "W's"

Hervoyel
12-10-2007, 05:03 PM
There is only one important stat, the "W"

MS, 11 starts 4 "W's"

Sage, 2 starts, 2 "W's"

That's insane logic. It entirely disregards every important variable you can imagine outside of the play of the QB. You do understand that QB's don't play in a vacum right?

Ole Miss Texan
12-10-2007, 05:07 PM
There is only one important stat, the "W"

MS, 11 starts 4 "W's"

Sage, 2 starts, 2 "W's"

Well W's are nice and everything but the way I see it both have 0 W's against our division rivals and those are the most important W's to get.

Schaub is and will be the better QB and will be the starter when healthy. Sage is a great backup QB to have, no question about it. If Schaub goes down like he has- Sage is the perfect guy to come in and the Texans won't miss a beat.

GP
12-10-2007, 05:09 PM
WOW at this comment. Just wow.

This comment tells me just about all I need to know.

Oh, come off it. Schaub was staring at the play, and just STANDING in one spot. That's like going swimming in the ocean and sprinkling some pig's blood into the water around you.

Quit attacking me, personally. You're acting as if I'm demonic or something. Thanks for overreacting and trying to paint me as evil.

What QB, in the NFL, just stands still or just slowly trots around blindly after throwing an interception? You're going to get PLASTERED by doing it. I didn't cheap-shot Schaub, the Chargers player did. And what's odd, to me, about this whole deal is this: Had he not led with his helmet and got to the head of Schaub, the play would have been LEGAL...and (drum roll, please) Schaub would STILL be hurt and on the bench. Schaub was headed to the bench on THAT play, no matter what.

I'm sick of fans making excuses for shoddy QB play. I stood up for David Carr for too long, and I'm not going to sit around here and make excuses for Matt Schaub just because he got hurt. The guy is not the answer. And to say we haven't seen enough? Well, I have seen the following and it's all I need:

1. Slow getting away from center, giving the dlinemen and blitzing LBs/DBs a HUGE advantage on the pass rush. Is it any wonder teams are blitzing LBs and DBs so frequently? They know what I know: Schaub is slow getting back into his drop-step(s)...you can get him EASILY. Sage is just running circles around Schaub in this area.

2. Schaub doesn't sense blindside pressure, holding onto the ball for far too long in an attempt to make something happen. End result? BAM! He needs to stop tyring to hit a homerun on a busted play. Eat it and play another down, please.

3. He has not proven that he is durable. Period. I'm sorry he had unfortunate hits that a lot of you are demonizing ME over. The fact remains that Sage Rosenfels has managed to stay upright and healthy. Schaub can't.

I'm sorry if this rains on some of you guys' parade. It was noble of us to try and get Schaub. Heck, I was as happy as anybody (you can check my posts). But I don't need 5 seasons like I did with David Carr. With Carr, I always wondered if he could manage the mental aspect of the game...I never worried if he was going to be in the game or not. Schaub's just not even in the game at all. But when he has been, I have noticed those three things (above) and it seems to be overlooked by a lot of fans. This is not a personal attack on Schaub...this is about his abilities/skills, which are getting him slaughtered.

At least do me the favor of watching film on Schaub and see if you can see the same three things that I see in the guy: 1. Slow getting away from center, as compared to Sage ; 2. Inability to just eat a play and move on ; 3. An inability to stay healthy.

GP
12-10-2007, 05:18 PM
Well W's are nice and everything but the way I see it both have 0 W's against our division rivals and those are the most important W's to get.

Schaub is and will be the better QB and will be the starter when healthy. Sage is a great backup QB to have, no question about it. If Schaub goes down like he has- Sage is the perfect guy to come in and the Texans won't miss a beat.

Which would make sense if Matt Schaub has had 5 seasons and a whole bunch of wins next to his name.

The two guys, IMO, are basically the same person: Backups who are looking to make a name for themselves.

You're acting as if Matt has been to the Pro Bowl and has led us to 10-6 seasons or something. In my book, Sage is outplaying and outlasting Matt Schaub.

And I think the rest of the team is rallying behind that. You just get a sense that the whole offense and all its players are thriving when they see Sage in the huddle and stepping up to the line. There's a spring to their step, there's confidence when the ball is snapped.

Schaub, on the other hand, looked good vs. Saints...and then he basically was declining from the first snap of the Titans game all the way to the point where he got knocked out of that game. Schaub did not look "in control," to me, in the Titans game.

Maybe he's not in good shape. Maybe he does need a season under his belt, as a starter, to get game-time reps in. But he's not even on the field this season to get those reps.

Sage is stealing those reps and is looking like a guy that some other teams will probably go after. Don't think too hard on this one: It takes a pretty good QB to make the Houston Texans look as good as Sage has been making us look.

I'll just sit back and see what the rest of the season gets us. I'm betting that Sage continues to keep games close, if not WIN them, and I'd bet that Schaub (if he comes back at all) is not going to be the same as he was in the first two games.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 05:25 PM
That's insane logic. It entirely disregards every important variable you can imagine outside of the play of the QB. You do understand that QB's don't play in a vacum right?

Beat me to it. I'm seeing no logic in any of the arguments so far. Its basically disregarding one guys stats in order to elevate another.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 05:26 PM
That's insane logic. It entirely disregards every important variable you can imagine outside of the play of the QB. You do understand that QB's don't play in a vacum right?

But the Variable are the same. Sage plays with the same hurt and missing player that MS does.

In fact one could even argue that if you take away the first two weeks of the season when every one was healthy and looked at the games that both Sage and MS played in with second and third string players, you could make a case that Sage has been able to get more out of the current player talent than MS.

Of course you would have to throw out all of Sage's junk stats, the ones where he had to come in and try and rally the team down by 4 TD's.(In more than one game might I add.) You would have to look solely at the starting opportunity with the same players starting with week 3, no Green, AJ, no McKinney.

With that in mind lets look at the 5 complete games of Schaub's -vs- the two of Sage.

In complete start games:

MS 5 complete starts, 1,396 yards 6 TD's 8 INT's 3 fumbles lost and 2 wins.

Sage 2 starts, 390 yards 4 TD's 1 INT and 2 fumbles lost and 2 wins.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 05:47 PM
Beat me to it. I'm seeing no logic in any of the arguments so far. Its basically disregarding one guys stats in order to elevate another.

nope. Im not disregarding Schaub's stats, and Im not disregarding Sage's stats either. Im comparing and contrasting the two, which is a fair thing to do. Schaub did reasonably well in his role as the starter, and Sage has done at least as good as Schaub. Thats all Im saying.

Texan_Bill
12-10-2007, 05:54 PM
That's insane logic. It entirely disregards every important variable you can imagine outside of the play of the QB. You do understand that QB's don't play in a vacum right?

Beat me to it. I'm seeing no logic in any of the arguments so far. Its basically disregarding one guys stats in order to elevate another.

We vehemently disagree!!

Signed,

VY fans.

Runner
12-10-2007, 05:56 PM
I don't know about all this Schaub/Sage talk, but I bet Sage would perform a little better if he didn't have the right DE hanging on his arm so often when he tried to throw. :)

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 07:42 PM
You can re-write your arguments over and over again, it doesn't do anything for you. The only reason I have done that in this thread is to try to explain something to some of you, who obviously have no intentions of listening.

TEXANRED and Mr. PC, you have both had multiple people come on here and talk about how your arguments are flawed. They try to explain these things to you, but you don't want to listen. They can't do it forever, so actually reading a post for what it's worth, and not what you want, is going to save your little fingers alot of typing.

oh please dude quit acting so high and mighty. It all basically boils down to a matter of opinion, who do you think has performed better as the starting QB? I have shown plenty of evidence to support the position that our QBs have performed with roughly equal ability, with Sage having better results. Sage also has a smaller sample size, so we need to see what he can do against three more good teams, the Broncos, Colts, and Jags. But Im getting real sick of your holier than thou attitude, assuming that because someone doesnt share your opinion that they dont know how to read posts or understand logic. You have absolutely not shown me any flaws in my arguement. The only point you've really made is that Sage hasnt played as much as Schaub so its not fair to compare their numbers. Outside of that you really got nothing.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 07:48 PM
oh please dude quit acting so high and mighty. It all basically boils down to a matter of opinion, who do you think has performed better as the starting QB? I have shown plenty of evidence to support the position that our QBs have performed with roughly equal ability, with Sage having better results. Sage also has a smaller sample size, so we need to see what he can do against three more good teams, the Broncos, Colts, and Jags. But Im getting real sick of your holier than thou attitude, assuming that because someone doesnt share your opinion that they dont know how to read posts or understand logic. You have absolutely not shown me any flaws in my arguement. The only point you've really made is that Sage hasnt played as much as Schaub so its not fair to compare their numbers. Outside of that you really got nothing.

I didn't say it is unfair to compare their numbers. I am just saying you have to account for the amount of dropbacks each has. So you can either cut Schaub's stats in half, or mulitply Sage's by two. Even then you don't get an accurate assessment of the two QBs, but atleast its more accurate than the stats you are using.


THIS IS THE PART THAT IS IMPORANT

I think that the fact that Schaub has 12 turnovers and Sage has 10 with roughly HALF the dropbacks is a pretty large part of the argument. But you can continue to ignore it.

HoustonFrog
12-10-2007, 08:00 PM
nope. Im not disregarding Schaub's stats, and Im not disregarding Sage's stats either. Im comparing and contrasting the two, which is a fair thing to do. Schaub did reasonably well in his role as the starter, and Sage has done at least as good as Schaub. Thats all Im saying.

This argument wasn't really geared towards you. It was the fact that TexanRed pointed out the "W"s as the end all be all of QBing on this team. Carr won a game last year with negative yards. VY wins games doing nothing at times. Schaub played really well in games in which they lost and there is nothing he can do about defense or injuries, etc. You just can't put "11 starts, 4 wins, etc" and have that as an answer because it takes all logic as to how the guy plays overall on a team that is not as talented as others and has serious flaws on offense.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 08:02 PM
I didn't say it is unfair to compare their numbers. I am just saying you have account for the amount of dropbacks each has. So you can either cut Schaub's stats in half, or mulitply Sage's by two. Even then you don't get an accurate assessment of the two QBs, but atleast its more accurate than the stats you are using.


THIS IS THE PART THAT IS IMPORANT

I think that the fact that Schaub has 12 turnovers and Sage has 10 with roughly HALF the dropbacks is a pretty large part of the argument. But you can continue to ignore it.
Never ignored and do not continue to ignore it. Schaub has 12 turnovers and 9 touchdowns. Sage has 11 touchdowns and 10 turnovers. Multiply, divide, do whatever and the TD to turnover ratio remains the same. Sage is more likely to score a TD than give up a turnover. You are the one ignoring the facts. I have said many times that Sage needs to be more careful with the ball and not turn it over so much. If you were paying attention to what Im saying you would know that.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 08:13 PM
Never ignored and do not continue to ignore it. Schaub has 12 turnovers and 9 touchdowns. Sage has 11 touchdowns and 10 turnovers. Multiply, divide, do whatever and the TD to turnover ratio remains the same. Sage is more likely to score a TD than give up a turnover. You are the one ignoring the facts. I have said many times that Sage needs to be more careful with the ball and not turn it over so much. If you were paying attention to what Im saying you would know that.

So it's ok that he turns the ball over almost TWICE as often as Schaub just because he throws almost TWICE as many touchdowns. I don't care how many touchdowns you throw, if you turn the ball over THAT often you probably will not become a starter in this league. I'm not ignoring the facts, I have stated probably 5 times in this thread now that I don't want someone who turns the ball over that often. But again, you don't read. It's as simple as that.

Regarding the bolded part: You have been talkin down about Schaub all thread, but yet when confronted about the fact that Sage would have turned the ball over almost twice as often as Schaub with the same ammount of dropbacks it's "Sage needs to be more careful with the ball". Doesn't seem all that fair.

If this team didn't have a turnover problem already, then I would be more comfortable with Sage as a starter (not over Schaub just as a starter). However, that is not the case. We are the worst team in football when it comes to turnovers. When you have THAT kind of problem on your team, it really hurts when your QB turns the ball over that often.

Since you like stats so much let's put it into perspective a bit OK? Sage has thrown 159 passes. Now if he was a starter, he would have thrown something like 426 passes by now (going by Tony Romo's attempts for the season considering his team is a pretty balanced team it seems). Using this number, he would have around 26 turnovers HIMSELF if he would have had that many attempts. That's just not acceptable. Keep in mind that this is his best year. That's more than VY has right now. I don't care if he throws 30 TD passes (which would be how many he has going by this number), it hurts the team WAY too much.

If you don't understand my position after this post, may god be with you.

Thorn
12-10-2007, 08:30 PM
Two of the turnovers from Sunday were the Bucs grabbing his arm when he didn't see them. Whatever that counts for.

In any case, I'm damn glad we have Sage as a backup.

Mr PC
12-10-2007, 08:31 PM
So it's ok that he turns the ball over almost TWICE as often as Schaub just because he throws almost TWICE as many touchdowns. I don't care how many touchdowns you throw, if you turn the ball over THAT often you probably will not become a starter in this league. I'm not ignoring the facts, I have stated probably 5 times in this thread now that I don't want someone who turns the ball over that often. But again, you don't read. It's as simple as that.

I totally understand and share your opinion regarding turnovers, TOs have been killing this team all season and we need to get it under control. But TD to turnover ratio is more important when judging a QB than just turnovers in my opinon. If you can choose between a quarterback that will give up no turnovers and score no points, or a QB that will turn the ball over and also score points, who do you pick?

Regarding the bolded part: You have been talkin down about Schaub all thread, but yet when confronted about the fact that Sage would have turned the ball over almost twice as often as Schaub with the same ammount of dropbacks it's "Sage needs to be more careful with the ball". Doesn't seem all that fair.

wrong again. I said Schaub has done a respectable job as the starter. I also said that Schaub needs to toughen up. See I can appraise both QBs for their faults and successes. Sage needs to turn the ball over less. Schaub needs to toughen up and score more TDs. Pretty even and fair assessment from my view.

TexansSeminole
12-10-2007, 08:44 PM
I totally understand and share your opinion regarding turnovers, TOs have been killing this team all season and we need to get it under control. But TD to turnover ratio is more important when judging a QB than just turnovers in my opinon. If you can choose between a quarterback that will give up no turnovers and score no points, or a QB that will turn the ball over and also score points, who do you pick?

I understand the turnover ratio, and its importance. But you have to understand that Sage turns the ball over an abnormal amount of times. 26 turnovers for a QB would not be managable, I am sorry. That's about 2 a game, just by Sage. It's not about choosing between a guy that goes 0 TD and 0 turnovers and a guy that goes for 30 TD and 30 turnovers, because that's just not how it is. Schaub may not throw as many touchdowns, but atleast I know that I can trust him to not turn the ball over AS OFTEN. It's not like he can't get into the endzone.

The touchdowns are nice, but if they come with a large number of turnovers, they are really not worth it.

wrong again. I said Schaub has done a respectable job as the starter. I also said that Schaub needs to toughen up. See I can appraise both QBs for their faults and successes. Sage needs to turn the ball over less. Schaub needs to toughen up and score more TDs. Pretty even and fair assessment from my view.

Sorry about that part, I got you confused with TEXANRED.

Two of the turnovers from Sunday were the Bucs grabbing his arm when he didn't see them. Whatever that counts for.

In any case, I'm damn glad we have Sage as a backup.

Turnovers are turnovers though, every QB faces some that are not his fault.

TEXANRED
12-10-2007, 09:15 PM
I didn't say it is unfair to compare their numbers. I am just saying you have to account for the amount of dropbacks each has. So you can either cut Schaub's stats in half, or mulitply Sage's by two. Even then you don't get an accurate assessment of the two QBs, but atleast its more accurate than the stats you are using.


THIS IS THE PART THAT IS IMPORANT

I think that the fact that Schaub has 12 turnovers and Sage has 10 with roughly HALF the dropbacks is a pretty large part of the argument. But you can continue to ignore it.

Here let me quote myself to help you out with your quandary

But the Variable are the same. Sage plays with the same hurt and missing player that MS does.

In fact one could even argue that if you take away the first two weeks of the season when every one was healthy and looked at the games that both Sage and MS played in with second and third string players, you could make a case that Sage has been able to get more out of the current player talent than MS.

Of course you would have to throw out all of Sage's junk stats, the ones where he had to come in and try and rally the team down by 4 TD's.(In more than one game might I add.) You would have to look solely at the starting opportunity with the same players starting with week 3, no Green, AJ, no McKinney.

With that in mind lets look at the 5 complete games of Schaub's -vs- the two of Sage.

In complete start games:

MS 5 complete starts, 1,396 yards 6 TD's 8 INT's 3 fumbles lost and 2 wins.

Sage 2 starts, 390 yards 4 TD's 1 INT and 2 fumbles lost and 2 wins.

So if you compare both QB's playing with the same team players and put them into similar situations this is what we come up with.

Again, lets not forget that both games Sage has played against have been against teams that were ranked both 4th and 5th in pass defense.

Nighthawk
12-10-2007, 09:44 PM
I've already combated this argument in my post, but good job reading.

You guys are rediculous with your stats. The point in my stats is to show you how dumb your argument is. You want a guy to drop back 289 times and throw 13 interceptions and lose 6 fumbles. That's in his best season ever. The 20 TDs don't even matter if you turn the ball over that often. I'll take less turnovers for less touchdown passes anyday. Especially on a team that LEADS THE LEAGUE IN TURNOVERS. But yea, they don't matter that much. OMG 20 TDs!

What is it about the word "ratio" that you don't understand?

Everything, apparently.

Dread-Head
12-11-2007, 12:56 AM
you guys ALREADY know how I feel...

Sage for President 2008

HOU-TEX
12-11-2007, 10:39 AM
I totally understand and share your opinion regarding turnovers, TOs have been killing this team all season and we need to get it under control.


A talented left Tackle with good footwork would eliminate at least 25% of our TO's. It's sickening watching Salaam trying to keep up with speed rushers. Bumbling and stumbling around the outside rush ending with him falling down and Schaub/Sage on the ground with the ball bouncing around.

Okay, rant over.

:includeme:

junior
12-11-2007, 11:40 AM
basically everyone is arguing over 2 back up QB's. one paid like a back up and one paid like a starter.

i am also tired of Schaub is basically a rookie, basically he is not. also then the same holds true for Sage.

Schaub has been in this style of offense something like 7 years or so going back to college. the reason Sage will continue to be a back up is the same reason Schaub was a back up in atlanta, the money.

there is also a reason that people are way more impatient with Schaub than they were with Carr. Carr was a no. 1 pick on an expansion team and a lot of teams make mistakes on first rounders all the time. but when you sign a free agent there is an expectation to perform right away, fair or unfair as it is.


i have said from the beginning that schaub should start hot then after a lot of game film was put together then we will see what happens and it hasnt been great. i am not ready to throw the towel in on schaub but i havent been impressed with scaub since week 2.

that doent mean he hasnt had good games since then but,just for me, i havent seen him and go wow that guy is going to be great. same is true for Sage, but at $47 millions i was hoping for wow.

markn
12-11-2007, 12:00 PM
I understand the turnover ratio, and its importance. But you have to understand that Sage turns the ball over an abnormal amount of times. 26 turnovers for a QB would not be managable, I am sorry. That's about 2 a game, just by Sage.

I don't think the sample size is big enough enough to fairly make that extrapolation. I'm sure if Sage was starting regularly, his consistency would improve. I'm not advocating he does become the starter though, Schaub has done well in what is essentially his Rookie year, and of the two he's clearly got the higher ceiling - but I'm more than happy to have Sage as back-up.

Goldensilence
12-11-2007, 01:51 PM
Unless you have Peyton, Brady, Favre and a handful of other QBs the Backup is always the most popular QB.

I'd roughly say they've played about the same and that's without Schaub having the benefit half the time of decent run game and AJ.

I can't help but crack up sometimes about a few of these guys going overboard about Sage Rosenfels. To those trying to argue with these guy's head stuck in the sand on the matter I'd say don't waste your time. Fact is this organization didn't feel confident enough in Sage Rosenfels at the end of last year went out and got Matt Schaub who has a higher ceiling by far.

Sage is important to me in this aspect. He's managing to win games. Not managing them. But at least managing to win them. Second...he's making a good pinata at this point. Honestly I'd rather him take the beating right now behind a banged up o-line and hopefully we'll let some of the younger guys get in there and develop some. This team has a waysto go but IMO make no mistake about it Matt is the guy we've tabbed and at the begining of this season when everyone was healthy on this team. He looked pretty good showing poise and leadership.

So let Sage come in...take a beating...save Matt's body and Confidence going into what will be a banner year i believe.

:texflag:

maddogmrb
12-11-2007, 03:10 PM
I can't help but crack up sometimes about a few of these guys going overboard about Sage Rosenfels. To those trying to argue with these guy's head stuck in the sand on the matter I'd say don't waste your time. Fact is this organization didn't feel confident enough in Sage Rosenfels at the end of last year went out and got Matt Schaub who has a higher ceiling by far.
:texflag:

It is not about going overboard, my friend. It is about who is playing better and leading the team better. And, speaking of sticking heads in the sand, I believe that would apply to those who are stuck on Matt Schaub as untouchable, like yourself.

Please define Matt Schaub's far higher ceiling over Sage's.

:fans: :cowboy1: :d:

Imatexanfan
12-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Sage did just that, "manage the game", which is all they ask of him. Our offense is extremely conservative for a 2nd string QB. The running game was efficient, and you have the defense on their heels to spread the field. We have great weapons in Johnson, Walter and Daniels, and even better, we have NOTHING to lose! We need to take more chances on defense, or find a D-Coordinator who will. :bat:

Yeah, our front office seems to drop the ball more than Carr did, and needs to make giant strides this coming up offseason to make this team watchable. We had a great draft this past year I firmly believe we definitely need a speed back(McFadden), however the secondary has huge holes that need to be STILL addressed. :cowboy1:

The Texans defense was great, no surprise. Sage did manage the game well no surprise. Hindsight is 20-20 and all. But I was just praying we didn't let this game slip out of our hands like many other ones at the last minute. Good game Sage get well Schaub.

Keep ya head up Dunta:shades: