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gtexan02
12-03-2007, 03:31 PM
McNair hasnt really shelled out the big bucks for coaches yet. The reason?

Probably because he has 20 additional contracts of players to pay because every gets hurt so freaking much.

I mean jeez, at this rate, it'd be cheaper for him to spend money on titanium pads or something than keep signing new blood

Seriously though, I imagine the constant barrage of new contracts must get expensive in a hurry

GP
12-03-2007, 03:33 PM
Houston Texans are documented as being one of the more profitable franchises in the NFL. I don't think this is hurting him.

Bob will find a way to make sure he keeps costs down. Don't worry about that.

adam
12-03-2007, 03:35 PM
You make a very good point. Is it illegal to insert injury clauses into the contracts? If not, it would be worth looking into.

Texans_Chick
12-03-2007, 03:51 PM
McNair hasnt really shelled out the big bucks for coaches yet. The reason?

Probably because he has 20 additional contracts of players to pay because every gets hurt so freaking much.

I mean jeez, at this rate, it'd be cheaper for him to spend money on titanium pads or something than keep signing new blood

Seriously though, I imagine the constant barrage of new contracts must get expensive in a hurry

Gary Kubiak has said repeatedly and publicly stated that McNair gives him all the resources that he asks for.

I think that Kubiak got the coaches he wanted at the time that they are available.

I do not think money is the issue, I think the following are:

1. Timing. To get good assistant coaches, you need to be looking at the right time.

2. Situation. If you are a talented assistant NFL coach, the Texans might not be your first destination. Little tradition, little prime time, no winning histories. You can kill your career going to the wrong situation.

3. Being niiiiiiiice/wanting to emulate Rooney and not Snyder. Bob McNair admires organizations that do things "the right way" and do not do things in a flavor of the week, lots of coaching turnover way. He likes stability in the organization, and appreciate what the Steelers have been able to do over the years with very little head coaching turnover.

He is a very niiiiiiiiice man. He wants his organization to be run in a niiiiiiice way. So sometimes coaches and assistant coaches stay longer than they probably should. Usually people leave in a way that saves face.

I don't think that it is bad to be niiiiiiiice. Often people flock to organizations that tries to treat their people like people. It's probably one of the things that helps them from having catastrophic locker room blowups in bad times. I just think that you can be niiiiiiice, while holding people accountable. It's much better than the Texans staff massaging the assistant coaches bios to make them sound like their units are performing better than they are.

Double Barrel
12-03-2007, 03:57 PM
2. Situation. If you are a talented assistant NFL coach, the Texans might not be your first destination.

I'm thinking this has a lot more to do with it than we'd like to believe. Some places are just career killers, so it would not surprise me if a perpetually losing franchise like ours is considered one of those destinations.

GP
12-03-2007, 11:38 PM
Last time I checked, the LOVE of money has driven many to roll the dice.

I really cannot agree with the assessment that it's possible a coach wouldn't come here because it's a career-killing move.

With THAT logic, Gary Kubiak wouldn't have come here.

Kubiak also told McNair that David Carr was fixable. Oops.

If we have learned anything, it's that Gary Kubiak will try and say all the right things. What else is he going to say? "I don't get a big enough allowance from my daddy..."

Michael Corleone said "If history has taught us anything, it's that anybody will coach any NFL team for the right amount of money..."

Htownsportsfan
12-04-2007, 08:34 AM
Last time I checked, the LOVE of money has driven many to roll the dice.

I really cannot agree with the assessment that it's possible a coach wouldn't come here because it's a career-killing move.

With THAT logic, Gary Kubiak wouldn't have come here.
Kubiak also told McNair that David Carr was fixable. Oops.

If we have learned anything, it's that Gary Kubiak will try and say all the right things. What else is he going to say? "I don't get a big enough allowance from my daddy..."

Michael Corleone said "If history has taught us anything, it's that anybody will coach any NFL team for the right amount of money..."


Well believe it! Maybe not a head coach but good coordinators are often pursued by more than one team and they always want a team with the best oppurtunity for them to move up in the coaching ranks. Thats why teams like Tampa Bay etc had to get young diamonds in the rough like Tony Dungy was when they hired him. One of the biggest problems with coachs us they are just as arrogant if not more so than the players! Kubiak did not tell McNair he could fix Carr just to get the job, he was foolish enough to think as a OC and so called QB guru he could corect Carr's issues.

As far as any coach will coach any team for the right mount of money thats just foolish! Go offer a boat load of money to Cower and he will still pass to take a job in Baltimore or Carloina rather than take on a team with an overall lack of talent liek the Texans have.

Texans_Chick
12-04-2007, 11:36 AM
Last time I checked, the LOVE of money has driven many to roll the dice.

I really cannot agree with the assessment that it's possible a coach wouldn't come here because it's a career-killing move.

With THAT logic, Gary Kubiak wouldn't have come here.

Kubiak also told McNair that David Carr was fixable. Oops.

If we have learned anything, it's that Gary Kubiak will try and say all the right things. What else is he going to say? "I don't get a big enough allowance from my daddy..."

Michael Corleone said "If history has taught us anything, it's that anybody will coach any NFL team for the right amount of money..."

Gary Kubiak came here because he is from Houston and would love Houston to having a winning team just about more than any other Houstonian. His family comes to a lot of Texans events.

It's not a coincidence that the Texans get free agents looking here that are from this part of the world or otherwise like living in the South.

A lot of people believed that David Carr was fixable. Unfortunately, Kubiak could only look at tape and didn't know that Carr was a nicklehead. He had to make the decision to pick up his contract before he ever could work with him.

Casserly wasn't going to admit the nickleheadness or that Carr had lost the locker room, and consultant Dan Reeves told managment that "David Carr was not the problem." The early 2004 tape on Carr (pre-Denver game) showed some promise, and the 2005 tape was mostly useless because of the Pendry crap.

Actually, it is probably Gary Kubiak that got David Carr his money from the Panthers. He made Carr look better than he was. As inconsistent as Carr was last year with the Texans, with the Panthers he has been a complete, mickey mouse hands freak show.

(BTW, I don't want this to turn into a Carr thread. I am just trying to make sure that the history isn't told from a revisionist point of view. There were all sorts of people, even after 2006 who were saying that David Carr wasn't done, that he just needed to get away from the Texans. Kubiak, after working with him in 2006, obviously wasn't someone who had that opinion).

If you are a really good coach, people will throw buckets of money at you. If you have buckets of money from two teams--one with tradition and one without, where would you go?

Even when Pittsburgh stinks, they are still a franchise people want to go to because of the size of their fanbase. From a tradition standpoint, the Texans have a difficult time of it because the only way they are going to get any positive attention nationally is if they start winning.

Chicken and eggs.

The biggest positives that the Texans have is:

1. Bob McNair is seen nationally as a good owner who gives his coaches resources (unlike Bidwell's repuation).
2. Great facilities.
3. No state income tax.
4. Lots of good players come from Texas and would like to return to Texas.


The biggest negatives are:

1. No winning seasons
2. Little tradition being the most recent franchise
3. No national exposure
4. Potentially coach killing job--go from promising guy to career suicide

utahmark
12-04-2007, 02:08 PM
Last time I checked, the LOVE of money has driven many to roll the dice.

I really cannot agree with the assessment that it's possible a coach wouldn't come here because it's a career-killing move.

With THAT logic, Gary Kubiak wouldn't have come here.

Kubiak also told McNair that David Carr was fixable. Oops.

If we have learned anything, it's that Gary Kubiak will try and say all the right things. What else is he going to say? "I don't get a big enough allowance from my daddy..."

Michael Corleone said "If history has taught us anything, it's that anybody will coach any NFL team for the right amount of money..."

where do you keep coming up with this stuff? most people on this board thought that kubiak was the best coach available. mcnair went out and got him. you think sherman is cheap? if mcnair was trying to save money why get him. what abour reeves, didnt we hire him as a advisor. thats not even a real job. mcnair was just paying him for his oppinion. why do that if all you care about is the money?

you just keep making these crazy statements with nothing to back it up and we are supposed to believe you. and just cause kubes made a mistake thinking carr could be fixed doesnt mean he was lying. just means he was wrong.

Double Barrel
12-04-2007, 02:48 PM
A lot of people believed that David Carr was fixable. Unfortunately, Kubiak could only look at tape and didn't know that Carr was a nicklehead. He had to make the decision to pick up his contract before he ever could work with him.

Actually, I think it was more about Kubiak agreeing to McNair's already-made-decision to keep his buddy on the team. I honestly don't think Kubiak had much say in the matter at the time. Yeah, he's "guilty by association" because he's the head coach and the contract was signed with him at the helm, but beyond that, I put that one all on our owner.

As far as coaches coming here, I think you're right on the money with your takes. The proof is in the pudding, and our pudding does not have much in the way of top-notched coaches.

powerfuldragon
12-04-2007, 02:58 PM
Actually, I think it was more about Kubiak agreeing to McNair's already-made-decision to keep his buddy on the team.

yeah i get the feeling D.C. and Bob "Bowel Movement" McNair used to sit around the fireplace up at stonerside and read 1 Corinthians.

Texans_Chick
12-04-2007, 03:00 PM
Actually, I think it was more about Kubiak agreeing to McNair's already-made-decision to keep his buddy on the team. I honestly don't think Kubiak had much say in the matter at the time. Yeah, he's "guilty by association" because he's the head coach and the contract was signed with him at the helm, but beyond that, I put that one all on our owner.

As far as coaches coming here, I think you're right on the money with your takes. The proof is in the pudding, and our pudding does not have much in the way of top-notched coaches.

I think there is some of that.

But also, if Casserly and Reeves are saying Carr isn't the problem, what coach with a quarterbacking background would think he couldn't fix him? Plummer was a smaller project than Carr pre-Kubiak, but was still a project.

The problem that the Texans had is that its beginnings were so messed up that it was hard to distinguish the bad from the bad bad from the bad bad bad. That Carr missed so few games made it difficult to see what the team looked like without him.

Double Barrel
12-04-2007, 03:30 PM
The problem that the Texans had is that its beginnings were so messed up that it was hard to distinguish the bad from the bad bad from the bad bad bad. That Carr missed so few games made it difficult to see what the team looked like without him.

We say that, but yet there were knowledgable guys on the board that saw the problems years before the team would admit to it. Heck, we know a couple of folks who've been right on the money about Carr since I've been here, and they don't do it for a living.

So we have two options to believe:

1. McNair made the decision 100% and Kubiak was too new/weak of a HC to demand anything at that point.

2. McNair made the call in agreement with Kubiak, in which case he a) cannot evaluate QB talent as advertised, and/or b) has an ego that believes he can fix anything and was unwilling to believe that DC's problems were beyond his scope.

Pantherstang84
12-04-2007, 03:32 PM
We say that, but yet there were knowledgable guys on the board that saw the problems years before the team would admit to it. Heck, we know a couple of folks who've been right on the money about Carr since I've been here, and they don't do it for a living.

So we have two options to believe:

1. McNair made the decision 100% and Kubiak was too new/weak of a HC to demand anything at that point.

2. McNair made the call in agreement with Kubiak, in which case he a) cannot evaluate QB talent as advertised, and/or b) has an ego that believes he can fix anything and was unwilling to believe that DC's problems were beyond his scope.

3. It's water under the bridge and doesn't make a difference to the current state of the franchise.

HoustonFrog
12-04-2007, 03:46 PM
3. It's water under the bridge and doesn't make a difference to the current state of the franchise.

Actually it has a ton to do with the current state of the franshise and it is something that you hope the owner or coach learned from and doesn't fall into the next time. They go hand and hand as to the workings of the franchise and how decisons are made. You can't go back and fix it but you sure hope they fixed THEIR problems in evaluating situations. Some owners become a little more "football savvy" as they go

Texans_Chick
12-04-2007, 04:16 PM
We say that, but yet there were knowledgable guys on the board that saw the problems years before the team would admit to it. Heck, we know a couple of folks who've been right on the money about Carr since I've been here, and they don't do it for a living.

So we have two options to believe:

1. McNair made the decision 100% and Kubiak was too new/weak of a HC to demand anything at that point.

2. McNair made the call in agreement with Kubiak, in which case he a) cannot evaluate QB talent as advertised, and/or b) has an ego that believes he can fix anything and was unwilling to believe that DC's problems were beyond his scope.

Or 3. McNair had two "football guys" in Casserly and Reeves that said Carr wasn't the problem, and Kubiak had nothing but tape to judge DC's performance and didn't know what was in Carr's noggin. Tape of bad quarterbacking, bad line play, bad schemes, bad wide receiver play, bad coaching, bad just about everything. Mostly unusable tape--stuff that would make it hard to evaluate anyone legitimately and tape doesn't show a player's work skills. Kubiak was used to coaching up QBs, and figured he could make DC a good quarterback while using his #1 pick on a different position(s).

And he made David Carr good enough to get more money in the offseason from the Panthers, where Carr promptly turned into a pile of benched goo.

Everybody knew that Carr had issues, but I believe it was a conventional football move to think that you could fix Carr and use your pick on something else. That you could work with a guy from February on, instead of waiting until the draft and getting a rookie.

But yeah, this runs the risk of derailing the thread. McNair and money is not the issue. Whether we can get the people we want with that money is a different story, or whether McNair will hold coaching staff folks accountable or being niiiiiiice and staying the course.

Double Barrel
12-04-2007, 05:16 PM
3. It's water under the bridge and doesn't make a difference to the current state of the franchise.

While true from certain angles, 29-63 is water under the bridge, too. Yet the losing tradition continues....

Actually it has a ton to do with the current state of the franshise and it is something that you hope the owner or coach learned from and doesn't fall into the next time. They go hand and hand as to the workings of the franchise and how decisons are made. You can't go back and fix it but you sure hope they fixed THEIR problems in evaluating situations. Some owners become a little more "football savvy" as they go

What H'Frog said.

Learn from the past, plan for the future, but live the present. Sometimes I think they try too hard and mix these up.

And good food for thought, TC. Unless the parties involved write memoirs, we will probably never know the truth of the matter and will forever be fuel for speculation.

gtexan02
12-04-2007, 05:36 PM
THe point of this thread, contrary to my original post (*doh*) was supposed to be a look into how much extra dough McNair has doled out this year compared to everyone else

With as many players on IR as we have, it must get expensive in a hurry

scourge
12-04-2007, 06:06 PM
Gary Kubiak has said repeatedly and publicly stated that McNair gives him all the resources that he asks for.

I think that Kubiak got the coaches he wanted at the time that they are available.

I do not think money is the issue, I think the following are:

1. Timing. To get good assistant coaches, you need to be looking at the right time.

2. Situation. If you are a talented assistant NFL coach, the Texans might not be your first destination. Little tradition, little prime time, no winning histories. You can kill your career going to the wrong situation.

3. Being niiiiiiiice/wanting to emulate Rooney and not Snyder. Bob McNair admires organizations that do things "the right way" and do not do things in a flavor of the week, lots of coaching turnover way. He likes stability in the organization, and appreciate what the Steelers have been able to do over the years with very little head coaching turnover.

He is a very niiiiiiiiice man. He wants his organization to be run in a niiiiiiice way. So sometimes coaches and assistant coaches stay longer than they probably should. Usually people leave in a way that saves face.

I don't think that it is bad to be niiiiiiiice. Often people flock to organizations that tries to treat their people like people. It's probably one of the things that helps them from having catastrophic locker room blowups in bad times. I just think that you can be niiiiiiice, while holding people accountable. It's much better than the Texans staff massaging the assistant coaches bios to make them sound like their units are performing better than they are.

I think someone needs to get you a new keyboard for christmas... your "I" key seems to be sticking....

brakos82
12-04-2007, 06:10 PM
3. It's water under the bridge and doesn't make a difference to the current state of the franchise.
Doesn't help when the water is 5 feet over the bridge... :gun:

utahmark
12-04-2007, 07:47 PM
We say that, but yet there were knowledgable guys on the board that saw the problems years before the team would admit to it. Heck, we know a couple of folks who've been right on the money about Carr since I've been here, and they don't do it for a living.

So we have two options to believe:

1. McNair made the decision 100% and Kubiak was too new/weak of a HC to demand anything at that point.

2. McNair made the call in agreement with Kubiak, in which case he a) cannot evaluate QB talent as advertised, and/or b) has an ego that believes he can fix anything and was unwilling to believe that DC's problems were beyond his scope.


you get a thousand people together giving their oppinions and a few of them or bound to come up with the right answer. but my guess is that most of the time its just pure luck. and it will be totally different poeple who happen to guess right about the next big question we have.

Double Barrel
12-05-2007, 10:23 AM
you get a thousand people together giving their oppinions and a few of them or bound to come up with the right answer. but my guess is that most of the time its just pure luck. and it will be totally different poeple who happen to guess right about the next big question we have.

Or maybe there are actually *gasp!* a few folks that really know football and are good at evaluating players on this board, too.

I'm not naming names, but after a few years of reading thousands of posts from folks, you start to see the cream rise to the top. Many will know the ones I speak of without me revealing them.

powerfuldragon
12-05-2007, 10:52 AM
I'm not naming names, but after a few years of reading thousands of posts from folks, you start to see the cream rise to the top. Many will know the ones I speak of without me revealing them.

I'll name one for you. Powerful Freakin Dragon

HoustonFrog
12-05-2007, 10:58 AM
Or maybe there are actually *gasp!* a few folks that really know football and are good at evaluating players on this board, too.

I'm not naming names, but after a few years of reading thousands of posts from folks, you start to see the cream rise to the top. Many will know the ones I speak of without me revealing them.

Could not agree more. I'd trust more opinions around here on talent then people working in the NFL. I'll put it this way for those who like to always throw out that we should trust these people because it is their job, not ours. There are plenty of attorneys out there that I know of that don't know jacksquat about the law or how to practice but they have the diploma and a bar card. There are plenty of doctors that made it through and who don't have the patients best interest in mind and who aren't great at their jobs. There are plenty of CPAs that screw up the numbers and get people in serious trouble. Well there are plenty of people that "act" knowlegeable in the NFL who keep screwing up and getting recycled that have no business being there.

Yankee_In_TX
12-05-2007, 11:05 AM
Could not agree more. I'd trust more opinions around here on talent then people working in the NFL. I'll put it this way for those who like to always throw out that we should trust these people because it is their job, not ours. There are plenty of attorneys out there that I know of that don't know jacksquat about the law or how to practice but they have the diploma and a bar card. There are plenty of doctors that made it through and who don't have the patients best interest in mind and who aren't great at their jobs. There are plenty of CPAs that screw up the numbers and get people in serious trouble. Well there are plenty of people that "act" knowlegeable in the NFL who keep screwing up and getting recycled that have no business being there.

I was wondering last night when I heard a handicapper show commercial on the radio-

If you put the "best" commentators, handicappers, and analysts against each other, would there be a clear cut winner, a cream every year? Or is it all just too unpredictable with injuries, players who don't pan out, and nobodys who have a career high game?

gtexan02
12-05-2007, 11:51 AM
Some of what is plaguing the Texans is the same thing plaguing many NFL teams.

Super athletes are the new trend. They are marginal football players with irrelevant football intelligence who rise to the top of draft boards purely based on athleticism.

Work ethic and heart are two things that should never be overlooked, but often are. Its the reason DeMeco made an immediate impact and the reason some of the purely physical guys will never make it

Second Honeymoon
12-05-2007, 01:24 PM
Some of what is plaguing the Texans is the same thing plaguing many NFL teams.

Super athletes are the new trend. They are marginal football players with irrelevant football intelligence who rise to the top of draft boards purely based on athleticism.

Work ethic and heart are two things that should never be overlooked, but often are. Its the reason DeMeco made an immediate impact and the reason some of the purely physical guys will never make it

David Harris out of Michigan is one of those guys. All the guy did in college was make play after play but because he didn't have a good combine he fell to the very end of the draft. He now leads the Jets in tackles in his rookie season after only playing roughly half the season making former DROY J.Wilma expendable and trade bait.