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View Full Version : Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?


dickieb
12-02-2007, 07:12 PM
All right guys, I know what you're thinking but since we might not see him in action anymore this year let's just talk it over...

Is Matt Shaub an improvement from what we have had in the past - Yes.

Is Matt Schaub the real deal - I don't know.

What should we do?

I have questions about him mainly his durability #1 and his arm strength #2. I think injuries happen and I think it mostly bad luck but still makes you wonder. Do you notice he can't really zip a throw in on target with a lot of velocity? He usually has to put a lot of air under his long throws leading to more picks and we have seen inaccuracy issues.

Is our front office tied to Schaub? I don't know the answer to this but if I remember correctly there is an out in the contract if we act on it this year. I remember something about only 8 mil was guaranteed money.


So after his first year of play do you think he should stay, or should we try to trade him and get out of his contract and maybe get a draft pick out of it and look for someone else.

ATX
12-02-2007, 07:14 PM
Maybe we could trade him back to Atlanta for a 1st...

austintexanite
12-02-2007, 07:15 PM
I think we should keep the guy, he's played well throughout most of the year. Injuries happen.

GuerillaBlack
12-02-2007, 07:19 PM
Keep Matt Schaub. He has made bad decisions this year and has had some injuries, but he is a keeper.

Maddict5
12-02-2007, 07:21 PM
we should, will and have to keep him.... [/thread]

ObsiWan
12-02-2007, 07:21 PM
All right guys, I know what you're thinking but since we might not see him in action anymore this year let's just talk it over...

Is Matt Shaub an improvement from what we have had in the past - Yes.

Is Matt Schaub the real deal - I don't know.

What should we do?

I have questions about him mainly his durability #1 and his arm strength #2. I think injuries happen and I think it mostly bad luck but still makes you wonder. Do you notice he can't really zip a throw in on target with a lot of velocity? He usually has to put a lot of air under his long throws leading to more picks and we have seen inaccuracy issues.

Is our front office tied to Schaub? I don't know the answer to this but if I remeber correctly there is an out in the contract if we act on it this year. I remeber something about only 8 mil was guaranteed money.


So after his first year of play do you think he should stay, or should we try to trade him and get out of his contract and maybe get a draft pick out of it and look for someone else.

Who would that someone else be?
I can hardly believe we're having this conversation. You want to dump a guy that's doing fairly well because he got hurt. Yet you offer no alternative. What you propose is to insert a new guy who has to learn the offense and earn the level of respect that Matt has developed with the team. You may as well throw away the next two seasons if you make that move.

Grid
12-02-2007, 07:26 PM
Yes he is the real deal, yes we should keep him, yes he is our answer at QB.

This is his first year starting and he has done tremendously. If a Rookie QB had come in and done what he has done, he would be in the running for the ROY.

We have seen two weaknesses that he has.

1) He makes bad decisions sometimes. This has lead to our turnovers (that and a buttload of fumbling). We can fix this by simply giving him more reps, and improving his "comfort zone" in the offense by getting a better run game and offensive line.

2) He is not durable. He isnt a QB that can take a ton of hits every game. This will most likely be an issue throughout his career, but it isnt something that cant be dealt with. Like his first issue, this can be improved (greatly) by improving our offensive line and running game.

Trading/benching him would be a huge mistake on our part.


P.S. there is absolutely nothing wrong with his arms strength. He gets the ball down field very well (look at all the huge touchdowns AJ has had), and his accuracy is very good. No he wont be throwing 15 yard passes that appear to teleport from his hand to the receivers hands (before promptly bouncing out and triggering a tip drill), but he has enough power behind his throws to thread a ball between defenders.. hes done it numerous times this year.

Ckw
12-02-2007, 07:29 PM
He's twice the QB Carr is but half the tough guy Carr is.

adam
12-02-2007, 07:30 PM
Maybe we could trade him back to Atlanta for a 1st...

The only reservation I have with this is; who's going to fill in for him? Let's face facts, Schaub hasn't played very well. Granted, he is basically a rookie, but he is still making dumb passes and as dickie pointed out, he doesn't have a lot of arm strength. With all of that said, is there an adequate replacement for him? I'm not willing to count on Rosenfels for an entire season. Pennington may be open, but he would really just be an older version of Schaub (injury prone, sub-par arm strength). Cleo Lemon will be an UFA next season. WOOO! Or, perhaps we should get Carr back? He'll definitely be open next season. Who's down for that homecoming? I didn't think so. The idea that we could trade him to a team with QB issues and a high 1st round draft pick is enticing, but do we really want to go through another season of mediocrity at the QB position?

I've said it before, I'll reiterate now; Schaub is probably not the future of this football team. With that said, he is the present. I say we give him (and Kubiak) another season to work with. At the end of next season, we'll have a better idea of what Schaub and Kubes is made of. For the time being, let's just finish the season and see what we can accomplish in the off-season.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 07:31 PM
Who would that someone else be?
I can hardly believe we're having this conversation. You want to dump a guy that's doing fairly well because he got hurt. Yet you offer no alternative. What you propose is to insert a new guy who has to learn the offense and earn the level of respect that Matt has developed with the team. You may as well throw away the next two seasons if you make that move.

New guy, same number (8) same reults (losing). He might end up with more passing yards than Carr but he is 9 TD's and 9 INT's thus far. We have the best reciever in football and all Schaub has is 9 TD's?

Schaub is an upgrade of Carr, but a Ford Escort is also an upgrade over a Ugo.

ATX
12-02-2007, 07:40 PM
dude, have you seen the new Yugos?

http://digilander.libero.it/cuoccimix/zoragy3.jpg

TexansSeminole
12-02-2007, 07:41 PM
New guy, same number (8) same reults (losing). He might end up with more passing yards than Carr but he is 9 TD's and 9 INT's thus far. We have the best reciever in football and all Schaub has is 9 TD's?

Schaub is an upgrade of Carr, but a Ford Escort is also an upgrade over a Ugo.

Schaub is a good QB. Like I said in another thread everybody gets injured.

Things could be alot better next year for Schaub. His receivers will have more experience, hopefully they can remain healthy. Maybe we will have some new offensive lineman and some new running backs would be nice.

He got some pretty good experience this year. Started 11 games. Played what, 8 or 9 all the way through? I am assuming he is done for the year.

Schaub's stats for the year:

192/289 66.4% 2,241 yards 7.8 yards/attempt 9 TD 9 INT 16 sacks 7 fumble 3 lost. 87.2 Rating. 11 games played.

He made some clear mistakes, but did a hell of alot of good things to go with that. Schaub is one of the main reasons that some people can call our WR corps strong, or somewhat strong. He gets the pass out quickly. Doesn't get sacked very often despite his offensive line busting protection quite often.

I'd also like to add that he had eight 200 yard passing games. Started the season with 6 of them in a row.

Grid
12-02-2007, 07:42 PM
Let's face facts, Schaub hasn't played very well. Granted, he is basically a rookie, but he is still making dumb passes and as dickie pointed out, he doesn't have a lot of arm strength.

:shocked

Lets face facts? Making dumb passes? He has a 66.7% accuracy rating. Thats 8th in the league. Yah our turnover stats are horrible..but he has 9 interceptions and 9 touchdowns.. and he would have ALOT more touchdowns if he hadnt lost Andre Johnson for half the season and we didnt have a subpar running game and offensive line. The bulk of our turnovers are the 15 fumbles we gave up...

And where is this arm strength thing coming from? The "lack of arm strength" rumor was something that was spread around before anyone had actually seen him play for any length of time. So far this year.. ive seen him thread the ball through defenders and make great throws deep down the field. There is nothing wrong with his arm strength.. he just needs more reps.

You shouldnt have said "lets face facts" you should have said "lets force you to listen to my bad opinions"

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 07:44 PM
dude, have you seen the new Yugos?

no just the old ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VV9NOBYDC4

http://digilander.libero.it/cuoccimix/zoragy3.jpg

A turd by any other name is still a turd.

Grid
12-02-2007, 07:45 PM
We have the best reciever in football and all Schaub has is 9 TD's?

So you only watched 5 games this season? Do you really think that makes you qualified to say how Schaub has performed?

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 07:50 PM
So you only watched 5 games this season? Do you really think that makes you qualified to say how Schaub has performed?

Are you?

But I am entitled to my opinions.

Grid
12-02-2007, 07:53 PM
But I am entitled to my opinions.

Yes you are.. and by posting them here you submit your opinions for others to pick at.

I dont understand how you can say "We have the best wide receiver in football to throw to and he only has 9 TDs" when AJ missed 7 games this year.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 07:55 PM
Yes you are.. and by posting them here you submit your opinions for others to pick at.

I dont understand how you can say "We have the best wide receiver in football to throw to and he only has 9 TDs" when AJ missed 7 games this year.

B/C of those 9 TD's that Matt has thrown 5 are to the guy who missed 7 games.

Grid
12-02-2007, 07:59 PM
B/C of those 9 TD's that Matt has thrown 5 are to the guy who missed 7 games.

Exactly.. so if we spread that out to the 7 games AJ missed.. we can say (from a statistical point of view) that if AJ hadnt gone down for 7 games, Schaub would have 16 TDs.

adam
12-02-2007, 08:05 PM
:shocked

Lets face facts? Making dumb passes? He has a 66.7% accuracy rating.

In his last season with us, David Carr completed 68% of his passes. I suppose that makes Carr the smarter passer, eh? No. Comp.% (while there is a spot where you'd like your QB to be) is probably one of the most overrated passing stats that is frequently used to measure a QB. The stupid passes I refer to are the ones that are thrown to covered receivers behind the first down marker on third down (sound familiar?). I have also seen him chuck it into double and triple coverage a number of times when he should have just thrown it away.


Yah our turnover stats are horrible..but he has 9 interceptions and 9 touchdowns.. and he would have ALOT more touchdowns if he hadnt lost Andre Johnson for half the season and we didnt have a subpar running game and offensive line. The bulk of our turnovers are the 15 fumbles we gave up...

I hate this argument. I suppose it was Andre Johnson's absence that has made him collapse mentally under-pressure? Do we really want a QB who can't produce without one particular guy on the field? I'll agree with you on the offensive line, but based on the style of football we play...I would not say that our running game is sub-par. We are a passing team, which means that (so long as the passing game is being executed efficiently) 75+ yards a game and consistency in short yardage situations is really all we need from our running game. Dayne has been good for that and then some for most of the season. I'm not blaming Matt for most of the turnovers. In fact, a lot of his INTs could be chalked up to WR error. None-the-less, he makes a lot of questionable decisions and always seems to make one fatal error when it's a clutch situation (see the end of the Cleveland game).

And where is this arm strength thing coming from? The "lack of arm strength" rumor was something that was spread around before anyone had actually seen him play for any length of time. So far this year.. ive seen him thread the ball through defenders and make great throws deep down the field. There is nothing wrong with his arm strength.. he just needs more reps.

I've seen a number of situations in which the WR down the field had to slow down and wait for the pass to arrive. There are situations in which the ball just doesn't get there (the first INT in the KC game is a good example). There are many short hitch passes that I've seen him throw in which the ball just didn't get there quick enough which cost us potential yards and completions. That's his main problem, his passes don't travel fast enough. He lacks zip. Now, to be fair, I could name a few situations in which he overthrew his receiver's as well.

You shouldnt have said "lets face facts" you should have said "lets force you to listen to my bad opinions"

Interesting choice of words. Sounds like a sub-par punk band.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:05 PM
Exactly.. so if we spread that out to the 7 games AJ missed.. we can say (from a statistical point of view) that if AJ hadnt gone down for 7 games, Schaub would have 16 TDs.

But that is my point, if Schaub was the savior of our franchise than he should have been able compensate with his play. It didn't happen.

Manning wins without Harrison, Brady wins with who ever is there.

Maddict5
12-02-2007, 08:08 PM
New guy, same number (8) same reults (losing). He might end up with more passing yards than Carr but he is 9 TD's and 9 INT's thus far. We have the best reciever in football and all Schaub has is 9 TD's?


whatever... most people can see hes a good qb thats still learning and improving

Aztequila
12-02-2007, 08:13 PM
He's twice the QB Carr is but half the tough guy Carr is.

I like this observation. Bottom line is that Schaub has shown that he can play, but the problem is he is getting banged up every game. Same old story, different QB, lack of protection.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:16 PM
whatever... most people can see hes a good qb thats still learning and improving

He is an average QB at this point who seems to keep getting hurt. He has only been sacked 17 times and has missed 3 games. If you can't depend on your QB staying healthy then this franchise will not ever improve.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:16 PM
I like this observation. Bottom line is that Schaub has shown that he can play, but the problem is he is getting banged up every game. Same old story, different QB, lack of protection.

He has only been sacked 17 times.

TexansMVP
12-02-2007, 08:20 PM
Passing statistic: Stat Link (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1)
2006 - Texans Ranked 27 out of 32 teams
2007 - Texans Ranked 6 out of 32 teams!!!


I think our QB is is doing pretty well for himself so far despite this being his first real year, our freak injuries, and anemic rushing attack for most of the season. Imagine our potential next year when we have some of these kinks worked out.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:27 PM
Passing statistic: Stat Link (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1)
2006 - Texans Ranked 27 out of 32 teams
2007 - Texans Ranked 6 out of 32 teams!!!


I think our QB is is doing pretty well for himself so far despite this being his first real year, our freak injuries, and anemic rushing attack for most of the season. Imagine our potential next year when we have some of these kinks worked out.

Sure we are the 6th ranked but all we have to show for it is 9 TD's and a 5-7 record.

Besides, right now that is not even my main beef, can he stay healthy?

kiwitexansfan
12-02-2007, 08:28 PM
I genuinely think that Schaub can be a second tier QB (below Manning and Brady).

What this year raises questions about is whether he can survive 16+ games??

4Texans
12-02-2007, 08:35 PM
I genuinely think that Schaub can be a second tier QB (below Manning and Brady).

What this year raises questions about is whether he can survive 16+ games??

Schaub is fine. People tend to forget he only had 2-3 starts in ATL, before this year. As for the injuries, I don't question just Schaub, but are whole team has suffered the injury bug, and not just this year. I question the Strength and conditioning coaches at times. Our team always seems to have more injuries than the other team. If we're going to have so many injuries, it put's our depth in question, and obviously we don't have the depth we need.

Marcus
12-02-2007, 08:39 PM
Who says Schaub has to be the "savior of the franchise"?

With all the pressing needs of this team, the quarterback spot is not high on my list of things that need to be addressed immediately. We have a quarterback that doesn't turtle up at the pressure, and keeps looking, and throwing, downfield. Is he perfect? No? Does he need to improve? Yes.

The thought of giving up on him after one season? Preposterous.


You shouldnt have said "lets face facts" you should have said "lets force you to listen to my bad opinions"


Quote of the day, Grid. Quote of the day.

Maddict5
12-02-2007, 08:45 PM
He has only been sacked 17 times.

and that is a testament to his quick decision-making and release than anything else... the o-line pretty much sucks

Manning wins without Harrison

yeah and played terrible without them... 6 ints? etc.. and its not like we're comparable to the pats and colts talent wise and matt is holding us back


and whoever thinks matt's comp % is like DC's last yr is delusional

anyway this whole thread is ridiculous- schaub's play is near the bottom of things we should be concerned about

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:46 PM
Who says Schaub has to be the "savior of the franchise"?

With all the pressing needs of this team, the quarterback spot is not high on my list of things that need to be addressed immediately. We have a quarterback that doesn't turtle up at the pressure, and keeps looking, and throwing, downfield. Is he perfect? No? Does he need to improve? Yes.

The thought of giving up on him after one season? Preposterous.



Quote of the day, Grid. Quote of the day.

B/C there have only been two championships ever won with sub par QB's and that is Tampa and Baltimore. We are not even coming close to there kind of defensive play.

Cowboys, 49ers, Packers, Patriots, Colts(both Baltimore and Indy), Steelers, Broncos, all have one thing in common, Hall of fame QB's that knew how to win and was the corner stone of there franchise.

Chris Chandler was a good QB, he couldn't stay healthy either.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 08:55 PM
Passing statistic: Stat Link (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1)
2006 - Texans Ranked 27 out of 32 teams
2007 - Texans Ranked 6 out of 32 teams!!!


I think our QB is is doing pretty well for himself so far despite this being his first real year, our freak injuries, and anemic rushing attack for most of the season. Imagine our potential next year when we have some of these kinks worked out.

and just to throw it out there Schaub is tied for 19th in TD passes. He is in the same company with Brian Griese, Damon Huard, and Chad Pennington.

Runner
12-02-2007, 09:00 PM
Schaub is fine. People tend to forget he only had 2-3 starts in ATL, before this year.

I don't think that is quite right. Some posters (not me in this case) questioned the Scaub deal when it was made because it was a lot to give up for a player with little more experience than a rookie. This opinion was frequently and sometimes vociferously condemned because Schaub had been on an NFL team some seasons. A lot of the time the dissenting posters were labeled as Carr or Vince lovers, usually erroneously.

I find it ironic that not only do the people who questioned Schaub's experience use it in his defense now, I also see it so many times that I think probably the peole who attacked those posters have changed their tune and use it too, which is good. It demonstrates the ability to learn.

Note: I'm not insinuating you (4Texans) held one opinion or other. I was just using your post as a jumping off point.

======================

Schaub's skills are the least of the Texans problems; his health might turn out to be more problematic.

Marcus
12-02-2007, 09:04 PM
B/C there have only been two championships ever won with sub par QB's and that is Tampa and Baltimore. We are not even coming close to there kind of defensive play.

Cowboys, 49ers, Packers, Patriots, Colts(both Baltimore and Indy), Steelers, Broncos, all have one thing in common, Hall of fame QB's that knew how to win and was the corner stone of there franchise.

Chris Chandler was a good QB, he couldn't stay healthy either.

So, you're ready to just give up on him after one season? Am I reading you right?

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 09:10 PM
I don't think that is quite right. Some posters (not me in this case) questioned the Scaub deal when it was made becasue it was a lot to give up for a player with little more experience than a rookie. This opinion was frequently and sometimes vociferously condemned because Schaub had been on an NFL some seasons. A lot of the time the dissenting posters were labeled as Carr or Vince lovers, usually erroneously.

I find it ironic that not only do the people who questioned Schaub's experience use it in his defense now, I also see it so many times that I think probably the peole who attacked those posters have changed their tune and use it too, which is good. It demonstrates the ability to learn.

Note: I'm not insinuating you held one opinion or other. I was just using your post as a jumping off point.

======================

Schaub's skills are the least of the Texans problems; his health might turn out to be more problematic.

I didn't question the trade b/c something had to be done. I feel a lot of posters judge and evaluate Schaub by only comparing him to Carr.

I can even deal with Schaubs average play at this point b/c when Moon came to the NFL it took him a couple of years to get good.

My main issue is can Schaub stay healthy? Only 17 sacks and a hand full of hits has side lined him for 3 games out of 11. Now he has a dislocated shoulder so who knows how long he will be out now.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 09:13 PM
So, you're ready to just give up on him after one season? Am I reading you right?

No but I am ready to have a back up plan if this one does not work out.

Draft a young QB and let him hold a clip board and learn.(Not saying a high round pick but at least have our bases covered.)

GP
12-02-2007, 09:26 PM
Wow.

This seems familiar. Been going on every year for the past 4 years or so.

We drop out of the playoff picture and everyone's at each other's throats.

LOL.

Schaub is awful. If the guy needs perfect protection, then he's awful. There's not a QB in the NFL who doesn't get smacked every now and then. And Schaub has shown that he can't take a hit.

Burn me at the message board stake if you wish, but this QB gamble is a losing deal. No need for stats. Wins and losses are all that matter. The guy can't even finish a game.

But please let me know how he'll magically get better. He's not a first-year rookie, fellas.

GP
12-02-2007, 09:31 PM
No but I am ready to have a back up plan if this one does not work out.

Draft a young QB and let him hold a clip board and learn.(Not saying a high round pick but at least have our bases covered.)

Was thinking the exact same thing.

I really don't want to see Schaub at QB again. If he needs perfect protection, as a lot are saying we should give him, then they're basically saying he's going to get hurt IF he gets touched. Last time I checked, there's not a QB in the NFL who goes a season without getting touched.

He was sharp vs. Saints and then he disappears. Give the guys 3 weeks, and he's a champ on gameday. Then I guess he needs another 3 weeks of rest to go back out there again.

TEXANRED
12-02-2007, 09:33 PM
Wow.

This seems familiar. Been going on every year for the past 4 years or so.

We drop out of the playoff picture and everyone's at each other's throats.

LOL.

Schaub is awful. If the guy needs perfect protection, then he's awful. There's not a QB in the NFL who doesn't get smacked every now and then. And Schaub has shown that he can't take a hit.

Burn me at the message board stake if you wish, but this QB gamble is a losing deal. No need for stats. Wins and losses are all that matter. The guy can't even finish a game.

But please let me know how he'll magically get better. He's not a first-year rookie, fellas.

I agree with this to a point.

Schaub could be the next coming of Tom Brady but it doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you are always on the side line.

TexansMVP
12-02-2007, 11:19 PM
I didn't get a chance to see the hit today, but the thing to remember is that when Schaub left some of these games this year, they weren't due to some ankle, or phantom injuries, the guy got a legitimate beat down.

During the first Titan game in Week 7, he received an illegal helmet to helmet hit from Haynesworth, and then again in Week 8, he suffered another illegal hit in the Chargers game knocking him out w/ a CONCUSSION. I mean it was such a cheap hit that the league even went back and fined the player 15k. I don't know about you guys, but if you get a dirty shot to the head and suffer a concussion, I'm not sure there is too much you can do.

Texanmike02
12-02-2007, 11:40 PM
P.S. there is absolutely nothing wrong with his arms strength. He gets the ball down field very well (look at all the huge touchdowns AJ has had), and his accuracy is very good. No he wont be throwing 15 yard passes that appear to teleport from his hand to the receivers hands (before promptly bouncing out and triggering a tip drill), but he has enough power behind his throws to thread a ball between defenders.. hes done it numerous times this year.

I'm a fan of his. But accuracy has not been his strong suit so far. I think it has a lot to do with the line... and don't give me completion%. He doesn't put people in a position to run. That is part of accuracy.

Grid
12-03-2007, 12:32 AM
But that is my point, if Schaub was the savior of our franchise than he should have been able compensate with his play. It didn't happen.

Manning wins without Harrison, Brady wins with who ever is there.

So you are going to dog on Schaub for not making enough TDs when he has Andre Johnson to throw to, then you are going to say that having Andre Johnson shouldnt matter, he should be doing it all by himself?

.........

oooook

I think people expect too much from Schaub. He is the savior of our franchise in that he replaced David Carr. He doesnt have to be Manning 2.0

Would it be so terrible if we just had a good QB that can move the ball and find the open man? Do we have to have a guy that can win the superbowl with third stringers?

There arent many QBs in the league that dont struggle when their best target is gone for 7 freaking games. And Schaub also has to deal with poor protection and a bad running game.

And yes we DO have a bad running game. The last few weeks it has been decent..but for the majority of the season we struggled to move the ball at all on the ground.

Grid
12-03-2007, 12:36 AM
I'm a fan of his. But accuracy has not been his strong suit so far. I think it has a lot to do with the line... and don't give me completion%. He doesn't put people in a position to run. That is part of accuracy.


People dwell on his mistakes and ignore all the passes he has made to double and triple covered receivers.

Go back and watch the games again and you will see him making more good throws than bad ones. Hell, seems like every game he makes one or two really scary passes to Owen Daniels with defenders all around him.


Oh, and to the guy that compared Schaub's accuracy percentage to David Carr's last year. I cant decide if you just dont watch the games, or if you are ignoring the truth in an attempt to make Schaub look bad (for whatever reason). But everyone knows that the only reason Carr had a 68% completion rating is because 3/4 of his passes were dump offs because he no longer had the nerve to stay in the pocket. Schaub makes plays.

LORK 88
12-03-2007, 12:52 AM
Who would that someone else be?
I can hardly believe we're having this conversation. You want to dump a guy that's doing fairly well because he got hurt. Yet you offer no alternative. What you propose is to insert a new guy who has to learn the offense and earn the level of respect that Matt has developed with the team. You may as well throw away the next two seasons if you make that move.
Major rep coming your way, it couldn't of been said any better.

Grid
12-03-2007, 12:54 AM
Wow.

This seems familiar. Been going on every year for the past 4 years or so.

We drop out of the playoff picture and everyone's at each other's throats.

LOL.

Schaub is awful. If the guy needs perfect protection, then he's awful. There's not a QB in the NFL who doesn't get smacked every now and then. And Schaub has shown that he can't take a hit.

Burn me at the message board stake if you wish, but this QB gamble is a losing deal. No need for stats. Wins and losses are all that matter. The guy can't even finish a game.

But please let me know how he'll magically get better. He's not a first-year rookie, fellas.


I SHOULD copy this and pull it out when Schaub wins his next game, just so that I can show you how much you are overreacting...but im not going to (mostly cause id forget).

Schaub got jacked up twice in a row.. the second time he fell awkwardly on his arm and his shoulder got dislocated. Its not like he took a hit in the chest and decided he couldnt play anymore. I mean if a truck drove onto the field and he got run over would you still be complaining about how he lacks durability? Because his injury today was just as unavoidable.

No, Schaub isnt durable.. but I personally think he would be fine if our Oline would stop this "well we are just gonna let a couple guys through for the next 8 downs" shit. A hit every now and again isnt gonna kill him.. its when he gets beat on constantly for 20 minutes that he ends up getting injured.

Seriously.. he has been out twice this year.. and both times it was the product of constant bad protection for an extended period of time.

maddogmrb
12-03-2007, 07:29 AM
I don't think that is quite right. Some posters (not me in this case) questioned the Scaub deal when it was made becasue it was a lot to give up for a player with little more experience than a rookie. This opinion was frequently and sometimes vociferously condemned because Schaub had been on an NFL some seasons. A lot of the time the dissenting posters were labeled as Carr or Vince lovers, usually erroneously.

======================

Schaub's skills are the least of the Texans problems; his health might turn out to be more problematic.


I, for one, questioned the Schaub deal. Many, if not most, talked about how he was the MOST coveted backup QB in the league and were comparing him to Favre, blah, blah, blah. Well IMO, the 2nd coming of Favre and the most coveted backup QB in the league would have gone for at least a mid-1st round pick. How many other teams out there needed QB's and didn't go for the famous backup QB? At Atlanta, his stats showed he was only an average backup QB and was inconsistent from game to game. Guess what we've discovered? He's inconsistent from game to game .... OMG, it's like his history was right or something.... imagine that!

Many defend him as being basically a rookie QB. Well, isn't Derek Anderson basically a rookie QB who wasn't nearly as coveted as Matt and NOBODY ever called him the 2nd coming of Favre ........... and DA's stats are far better than Matt's and we could have had him for nada! So IMO, to expect a little more from Matt is not too much to expect at this point.

Please don't misunderstand me. He is better than last year's #8 but, he is not and does not appear that he ever will be an all-pro QB in this league.

I'm not totally down on Matt. But, the facts are the facts, he has been inconsistent, his stats are what they were in Atlanta .... mediocre, and he has not been durable.

Just as I emphasized in the off-season, we needed to address the oline before any QB can look like an all-pro on this team and I was "vociferously condemned" (see above) because it was all last year's #8's fault and our oline was going to be tremendously better because of Matt. It was even suggested how much better our running game would be because of Matt. In fact, I think the cheerleaders were even going to be better looking because of Matt!

Bottom line, I want Matt to be better, I want him to be Favre, I want him to be all-pro ........ but he ain't.:texflag:

nunusguy
12-03-2007, 08:21 AM
I was and continue to be a fan of the move to make the trade for Schaub -
in theory. Yout have to take chances from time to time to succeed in this league. But as a back-up in ATL he did have limited playing time in the NFL so the uncertainty of his ability to be a full-time QB represented the big downside to the decision. And now we are seeing a very bad scenario in that downside in a QB who appears to be injury prone.
But the Texans hedged their bet on Schaub by having a relatively modest investment in guaranteed money (I'm thinking only 'bout 7 million?). The biggest investment of course was the 2 second round picks, but the point is our future isn't tied to Schaub and its possible Sage or another player and not Schaub could still be our QB of the future.
McNair I'm sure has learned a lot about getting too close to his QB and he will probably move quicker next time to make the necessary change. And that also goes for his HCs I would hope.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 08:34 AM
In his last season with us, David Carr completed 68% of his passes. I suppose that makes Carr the smarter passer, eh? No. Comp.% (while there is a spot where you'd like your QB to be) is probably one of the most overrated passing stats that is frequently used to measure a QB. The stupid passes I refer to are the ones that are thrown to covered receivers behind the first down marker on third down (sound familiar?). I have also seen him chuck it into double and triple coverage a number of times when he should have just thrown it away.

This is when I stopped reading considering Carr never went down field and right now we have a pretty high number of passes downfield compared to last year.

Grid, welcome back to overreaction 101. 2 weeks ago he was a stud.:shades:

I was and continue to be a fan of the move to make the trade for Schaub -
in theory. Yout have to take chances from time to time to succeed in this league. But as a back-up in ATL he did have limited playing time in the NFL so the uncertainty of his ability to be a full-time QB represented the big downside to the decision. And now we are seeing a very bad scenario in that downside in a QB who appears to be injury prone.
But the Texans hedged their bet on Schaub by having a relatively modest investment in guaranteed money (I'm thinking only 'bout 7 million?). The biggest investment of course was the 2 second round picks, but the point is our future isn't tied to Schaub and its possible Sage or another player and not Schaub could still be our QB of the future.
McNair I'm sure has learned a lot about getting too close to his QB and he will probably move quicker next time to make the necessary change. And that also goes for his HCs I would hope.

Thanks for being level-headed. Right you are. Not only that but you can chalk up one of the #2s as if we used it on drafting him. So basically we gave up a future #2.

I'm happy with the guy and his play. I think it is the best QBing we have seen as a franchise when it comes to getting it downfield, pocket presence, etc. His durability is a concern. It is something we will need to address as this goes along.

Dime
12-03-2007, 08:36 AM
Wow.... Dont understand where this came from.

When Schaub is in, MOST of his interceptions (not all) were not his fault. How you say? How many times have you seen a ball thrown to be bumped up into the air by the reciever, then intercepted. Maybe some will argue about the lack of finace (sp?), but when he is in, he is a very good qb.

TEXANS84
12-03-2007, 08:59 AM
I like Sage, tastes great on turkey.

HJam72
12-03-2007, 09:11 AM
As far as the durability goes, does Schaub even try to gain weight? I mean he's what?--6'5" and 170 or something? I don't see how he could be trying to gain weight and still be that skinny, and I would think that gaining some weight would help with his durability.

It's the holidays. Somebody get that man outta the tape room and FEED him.

OK, maybe he just looks so skinny because he's getting hit by 350 lb. nose-guards, but he could still gain some weight.

HOU-TEX
12-03-2007, 09:47 AM
As far as the durability goes, does Schaub even try to gain weight? I mean he's what?--6'5" and 170 or something? I don't see how he could be trying to gain weight and still be that skinny, and I would think that gaining some weight would help with his durability.

It's the holidays. Somebody get that man outta the tape room and FEED him.

OK, maybe he just looks so skinny because he's getting hit by 350 lb. nose-guards, but he could still gain some weight.

Although I'd gather you're joking, but I believe he could use a little strength training. Schaub has the size of a prototypical QB, but it appears to me he lacks the strength for his body size. I think he needs to work on his strength and conditioning this off-season. He'll be fine. :)

I like Schaub and I definetely think he's got what it takes to become a good QB for us. I do not expect him to be a Manning, Brady, Favre, etc., but I do want him to have the durability to go into battle with his teamates week in week out. :texflag:

powerfuldragon
12-03-2007, 09:49 AM
I like Sage, tastes great on turkey.
also makes your house smell nice when they're driving the evil spirits/demons out.

adam
12-03-2007, 10:32 AM
This is when I stopped reading considering Carr never went down field and right now we have a pretty high number of passes downfield compared to last year.

I find it funny that no one can make a case for Schaub's play outside of the "at least he isn't David Carr" argument. Make no mistake, Schaub is better than Carr. You'll never catch me arguing that. However, Trent Edwards is
better than J.P. Losman. Philip Rivers is better than Ryan Leaf. Do you see where I am going with this? Being better than someone who sucks, even when those keeping track have gotten used to the sucking of a particular individual, does not make you spectacular by any means.

Either way, I can tell you didn't finish reading my post because you obviously missed the point. The point of that section of my post wasn't to display Carr's superior completion percentage but to rather point out that completion percentage is a poor way judge the level of intelligence a QB displays when throwing the football. Case in point, David Carr had a high completion percentage. Yet, he still made stupid passes. Matt Schaub has a high completion percentage, yet still makes stupid passes.

All of that said, I am not over-reacting. I have not called for him to be cut. In fact, I have called for him to be IR'd so that he'll be at 100% for next season. I'm not gonna cut him off after one season. However, I am going to be objective when analyzing him. I am not going to play homer with the most important position on the field. I saw an old thread that was bumped awhile ago concerning David Carr that was made when he still played here. As you could imagine, a lot of people had his back and lauded his play. Particularly his ability to complete a large percentage of his passes. Yet, when he got cut, everyone that was pro-Carr came around and looked at him objectively and realized that he wasn't the golden QB that they thought he was. Playing for the team I love doesn't mean that Schaub is without fault.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 10:38 AM
I find it funny that no one can make a case for Schaub's play outside of the "at least he isn't David Carr" argument. Make no mistake, Schaub is better than Carr. You'll never catch me arguing that. However, Trent Edwards is
better than J.P. Losman. Philip Rivers is better than Ryan Leaf. Do you see where I am going with this? Being better than someone who sucks, even when those keeping track have gotten used to the sucking of a particular individual, does not make you spectacular by any means.

Either way, I can tell you didn't finish reading my post because you obviously missed the point. The point of that section of my post wasn't to display Carr's superior completion percentage but to rather point out that completion percentage is a poor way judge the level of intelligence a QB displays when throwing the football. Case in point, David Carr had a high completion percentage. Yet, he still made stupid passes. Matt Schaub has a high completion percentage, yet still makes stupid passes.

All of that said, I am not over-reacting. I have not called for him to be cut. In fact, I have called for him to be IR'd so that he'll be at 100% for next season. I'm not gonna cut him off after one season. However, I am going to be objective when analyzing him. I am not going to play homer with the most important position on the field. I saw an old thread that was bumped awhile ago concerning David Carr that was made when he still played here. As you could imagine, a lot of people had his back and lauded his play. Particularly his ability to complete a large percentage of his passes. Yet, when he got cut, everyone that was pro-Carr came around and looked at him objectively and realized that he wasn't the golden QB that they thought he was. Playing for the team I love doesn't mean that Schaub is without fault.

My post was a reply to the fact that you said Carr also had a high completion percentage. It had nothing to do with their exact comparisons until you broached the subject. You can't just take sentences out of context. Carr completed 5 yard dumpoffs at a high percetage. Schaub has gone downfield. That was the reply.

As far as Schaub, at one point before the injuries he was ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories. Pretty good for a "rookie." He also, besides some obvious mistakes, has run the team pretty well and kept our offense in some games despite having the injuries, etc. No one ever said Schaub is without fault. I'm just judging him on 10 or whatever starts he has actually had in the NFL. If you look at it, along with what we asked him to do when AJ, McKinney and Green went down, I think he has had a pretty good season. Being objective doesn't mean kneejerk reactions after every game. I just think some have gotten into this 6 year rut of complaining where they can't get out. This season has gone downhill but I'm not going to lose sight of the big picture regarding individual players this season.

treygar
12-03-2007, 11:25 AM
I've seen enough.

I see no difference between Carr and Schaub under the center other than Carr wouldn't be missing out on so many games.

adam
12-03-2007, 11:43 AM
My post was a reply to the fact that you said Carr also had a high completion percentage. It had nothing to do with their exact comparisons until you broached the subject. You can't just take sentences out of context. Carr completed 5 yard dumpoffs at a high percetage. Schaub has gone downfield. That was the reply.

Which is exactly why I was trying to point out that completion percentage is a bad statistic to argue for a QB on. Schaub is better than Carr. Carr has a better completion percentage. Thus, the measurement is flawed.

As far as Schaub, at one point before the injuries he was ranked in the Top 10 in 7 QB categories. Pretty good for a "rookie." He also, besides some obvious mistakes, has run the team pretty well and kept our offense in some games despite having the injuries, etc. No one ever said Schaub is without fault. I'm just judging him on 10 or whatever starts he has actually had in the NFL. If you look at it, along with what we asked him to do when AJ, McKinney and Green went down, I think he has had a pretty good season. Being objective doesn't mean kneejerk reactions after every game. I just think some have gotten into this 6 year rut of complaining where they can't get out. This season has gone downhill but I'm not going to lose sight of the big picture regarding individual players this season.

I'm not having a kneejerk reaction. I have been very fair to Matt, given everything that has transpired throughout the course of the season. He has played fairly decent, but only extraordinarily when compared to what we were used to with Carr. I am willing to Schaub some time, not 5 years mind you, but time. I am more than willing to see what he can do next season after what I hope will be a good offseason that will center in on the offensive line. If he spends some time on decision making, some time building up his arm strength, and some time conditioning himself. He may develop into an elite QB. As of now, however, he is not. My main concern is that he has regressed as the season has worn on. Granted, it's hard to argue with the beginning of the season for a guy who is basically a rookie. None-the-less, his performance has really come back down to Earth...and it needs some work. Overall, I would say that Schaub has potential. He needs a lot of work. As a fan, I am willing to give him the time to accomplish said work. By the end of next season, I think we'll know whether he (and Kubiak for that matter) are going to turn the corner or not.

Mr. White
12-03-2007, 11:46 AM
I didn't feel like reading this whole thread. Here's my 2 cents.

Q: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

A: No. 9 TDs, 9 INT's. That's most likely the last we'll see of him this year. His grade for the season is an "I."

Ephraim Salaam was not brought in to be the starting LT. He was brought in for depth. When he totally misses a block and gets his QB's shoulder dislocated, it's pretty easy to see why.

I don't know what the hell Schaub could have done about it. The Tacks just have our number. They know where the weakness in the O-Line is and they exploit it every time.

Seems to me like when the issue of "durability" comes up as it pertains to the QB play, it's really a Carr homer take in disguise. Troy Aikman wasn't very durable either. That didn't seem to bother the Hall of Fame voters.

I'll take Schaub's fundamental skills over Carr's durability anyday. It wouldn't surprise me if Carr isn't even on an NFL roster next season.

Mailman
12-03-2007, 11:51 AM
I've seen enough.

I see no difference between Carr and Schaub under the center other than Carr wouldn't be missing out on so many games.

This is world-class WRONG.

Are you not actually watching the games, or are you just still hungover from yesterday's game?

If I'm pointing fingers at the reason the Texans aren't winning right now, Schaub is pretty far down the list.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 12:12 PM
I didn't feel like reading this whole thread. Here's my 2 cents.

Q: Matt Schaub - Have we seen enough?

A: No. 9 TDs, 9 INT's. That's most likely the last we'll see of him this year. His grade for the season is an "I."

Ephraim Salaam was not brought in to be the starting LT. He was brought in for depth. When he totally misses a block and gets his QB's shoulder dislocated, it's pretty easy to see why.

I don't know what the hell Schaub could have done about it. The Tacks just have our number. They know where the weakness in the O-Line is and they exploit it every time.

Seems to me like when the issue of "durability" comes up as it pertains to the QB play, it's really a Carr homer take in disguise. Troy Aikman wasn't very durable either. That didn't seem to bother the Hall of Fame voters.

I'll take Schaub's fundamental skills over Carr's durability anyday. It wouldn't surprise me if Carr isn't even on an NFL roster next season.

Not comparing the two but a good point. Some guys, early in the career get knocked around pretty hard but are still successful. There were Cowboy SB years where Kosar and Beurlein had to step up.

I've seen enough.

I see no difference between Carr and Schaub under the center other than Carr wouldn't be missing out on so many games.

Hulk?

adam
12-03-2007, 12:24 PM
I've seen enough.

I see no difference between Carr and Schaub under the center other than Carr wouldn't be missing out on so many games.

Really? No difference at all? Do you watch football? For everything that will go unanswered regarding Schaub this season, I don't think his superiority to Carr should be called into question.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Schaub looks to be a good QB. But, the problem is he isn't good enough to make the Texans better while giving up two 2nd round draft picks. Which was my issue with that trade from the beginning. My position was, let Sage take the reigns and build a strong core of players through the draft!

In the Schaub deal, it seems it is a push when grading the overall talent on the team from 06 to 07. Definite improvement at the QB position, but the other positions just seem to either be holding the line or getting worse.

The Texans seems to be in desperate need of offensive linemen and a dependable big play running back to really help out Schaub. Unfortunately, the draft may not play out to draft one of those positions, which has been the issue for the last several years. Which is why you need your 2nd round picks!

Making trades and dipping in the free agency market is not how to build a consistent strong franchise.

treygar
12-03-2007, 12:41 PM
I took this from a reply in the Chronicle Z Report blog. You guys may worship Schaub all you want but he has only completed 7 of 10 games he has started, in the schools I went to 70% was a 'D'.

Feel free to dissect the following numbers all you want but numbers don't lie, be it 5 yard dumpoffs or 70 yard passes to AJ, it all equals out. Some of you search for excuses to make your point more viable, and say things like 'Do you even watch football?' Funny. I don't have to give my words meaning by demeaning you so feel free to read the following it may open your eyes some.

----------------------------------------------------------

Carr only had 13 TD'S passing and running, but 19 TO'S on both Int & fumbles all of last year. All of this occurred with 41 sacks regardless of who fault there were.

Schaub and Sage are responsible to date for 17 TD's, & 20 Turnovers, but this has happened on only 18 sacks and we have 5 more games to go.

We are going to have many more turnovers on fewer sacks. It should go the other way. Less sacks should equal healthy QB, fewer TO'S and more wins.

------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your time.

treygar
12-03-2007, 12:42 PM
Schaub looks to be a good QB. But, the problem is he isn't good enough to make the Texans better while giving up two 2nd round draft picks. Which was my issue with that trade from the beginning. My position was, let Sage take the reigns and build a strong core of players through the draft!

Making trades and dipping in the free agency market is not how to build a consistent strong franchise.

Very well said. I agree wholeheartedly even though I like Carr this would've worked as well.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 12:50 PM
I took this from a reply in the Chronicle Z Report blog. You guys may worship Schaub all you want but he has only completed 7 of 10 games he has started, in the schools I went to 70% was a 'D'.

Feel free to dissect the following numbers all you want but numbers don't lie, be it 5 yard dumpoffs or 70 yard passes to AJ, it all equals out. Some of you search for excuses to make your point more viable, and say things like 'Do you even watch football?' Funny. I don't have to give my words meaning by demeaning you so feel free to read the following it may open your eyes some.

----------------------------------------------------------

Carr only had 13 TD'S passing and running, but 19 TO'S on both Int & fumbles all of last year. All of this occurred with 41 sacks regardless of who fault there were.

Schaub and Sage are responsible to date for 17 TD's, & 20 Turnovers, but this has happened on only 18 sacks and we have 5 more games to go.

We are going to have many more turnovers on fewer sacks. It should go the other way. Less sacks should equal healthy QB, fewer TO'S and more wins.

------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your time.

I think your thinking is warped. I don't like our Turnover numbers at all but how are Sage's tunrovers attributed to Schaub and wouldn't you expect some more ints when you actually are trying to stretch the field?

I'm sorry but if you know anything about football, how the QB position is played, etc then there is no way that you can even watch games this season and come to the conclusion that Schaub and Carr are even on the same level. Especially considering we are working with the same weapons and many of the weapons have been out this year. He isn't a savior but better than we had by a long shot. Don't take the comments as demeaning but you have to watch a guy play, pocket presence, getting the team involved, etc to have any idea vs. the stats you just threw out.

Mr. White
12-03-2007, 12:53 PM
even though I like Carr

Never would have guessed...

Time to move on. Sometimes we just bet on the wrong horse.

They're about ready to run that horse out of Charlotte now.

Porky
12-03-2007, 12:59 PM
If they don't give Carr, er I mean Schaub, 5 years to prove himself then something is clearly wrong.

DerekLee1
12-03-2007, 01:00 PM
Carr only had 13 TD'S passing and running, but 19 TO'S on both Int & fumbles all of last year. All of this occurred with 41 sacks regardless of who fault there were.

Is this one particular year, an average, a total, or what? If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Schaub's numbers to Carr's first year.

treygar
12-03-2007, 01:00 PM
I think your thinking is warped. I don't like our Turnover numbers at all but how are Sage's tunrovers attributed to Schaub and wouldn't you expect some more ints when you actually are trying to stretch the field?

I'm sorry but if you know anything about football, how the QB position is played, etc then there is no way that you can even watch games this season and come to the conclusion that Schaub and Carr are even on the same level. Especially considering we are working with the same weapons and many of the weapons have been out this year. He isn't a savior but better than we had by a long shot. Don't take the comments as demeaning but you have to watch a guy play, pocket presence, getting the team involved, etc to have any idea vs. the stats you just threw out.

Yes you are right I know nothing about football.

But you obviously can't read, those stats weren't written by me but are an eye opener. He put Sage and Schaub together in his stat comparison, this was also written in there. Again, please read before responding to me I'm not known for sugarcoating peoples ignorance.

I don't have the film in front of me but I'm fairly certain Schaub has had more than one INT in the opponents territory, so drop the long ball spreading the field theory. It is about placing the ball where the receiver can get it, but again, I don't know much about the QB position.

I'd rather have David Carr or Sage for 16 complete games than Schaub for 7, I'd like to think mathematically you can win more games playing 16 games than 7 but if I am mistaken on that line of thinking please let me know.

treygar
12-03-2007, 01:02 PM
Is this one particular year, an average, a total, or what? If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Schaub's numbers to Carr's first year.

Why, is Schaub a rookie on a first year expansion team? Must have missed that.

kastofsna
12-03-2007, 01:02 PM
wow, ready to give up on Schaub already, eh? well that makes sense. luckily there are tons of good quarterbacks just lying around out there so it'll be very easy to replace him.

Mailman
12-03-2007, 01:13 PM
ow much about the QB position.

I'd rather have David Carr or Sage for 16 complete games than Schaub for 7...

Credibility destroyed.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 01:22 PM
Yes you are right I know nothing about football.

But you obviously can't read, those stats weren't written by me but are an eye opener. He put Sage and Schaub together in his stat comparison, this was also written in there. Again, please read before responding to me I'm not known for sugarcoating peoples ignorance.

I don't have the film in front of me but I'm fairly certain Schaub has had more than one INT in the opponents territory, so drop the long ball spreading the field theory. It is about placing the ball where the receiver can get it, but again, I don't know much about the QB position.

I'd rather have David Carr or Sage for 16 complete games than Schaub for 7, I'd like to think mathematically you can win more games playing 16 games than 7 but if I am mistaken on that line of thinking please let me know.

You said it not me.

I know those stats weren't by you but you are skipping some things. You are saying that you think Carr and Schaub are the same but you are attributing stats from Sage. You are also taking a guys 5th years vs a 1st year. You also don't take into account the number of passes over 40 yards that we have risen on or above 20. You also fail to respond to team injuries. You just can't say that Schaub would have reached those numbers if he played. I never knew in this day and age that QBs all made it through the years unscathed. I guess Aikman and all those others that mised 3-4 games a year in SB years were off too.

Considering your boy isn't even the second stringer on Carolina's team anymore I think you lost all credibility with your first point. Sorry, it is proven. Again, I find many faults with Schaub's game but watching him and saying he is on the same level as Carr last year is laughable. It just is. Not a great QB at all but better than what we dealt with.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 01:59 PM
So you are going to dog on Schaub for not making enough TDs when he has Andre Johnson to throw to, then you are going to say that having Andre Johnson shouldnt matter, he should be doing it all by himself?

.........

oooook

That is exactly what I am saying. If Moss and TO can have a QB that gets them 13+ TD's why not AJ? IMO, he is just as good if not better than those guys. Schaub threw 4 TD passes in the first two games, and 4 TD passes in the last three weeks, that means weeks 3 thru 10 he had 1, this is not a typo, 1, TD pass.

There is something wrong with a QB that only manages 1 TD pass in 5 weeks (minus one week for the bye week and then minus two weeks due to injury)

I think people expect too much from Schaub. He is the savior of our franchise in that he replaced David Carr. He doesn't have to be Manning 2.0

Great franchises have great QB's. Period. Why do you think that Dallas and the 49ers and the Steelers have five rings and the Patriots chasing down a fourth? B/C they get great QB play.

Would it be so terrible if we just had a good QB that can move the ball and find the open man? Do we have to have a guy that can win the superbowl with third stringers?
Yes to the first, that is just settling for mediocrity. Yes, see Brady.

There arent many QBs in the league that dont struggle when their best target is gone for 7 freaking games. And Schaub also has to deal with poor protection and a bad running game.

Now we are back to the protection excuse? He has only been sacked 17 times. Dayne has been averaging 90 yards a game over the last four weeks.

IlliniJen
12-03-2007, 02:02 PM
This thread makes baby raptor jesus cry.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:03 PM
This thread makes baby raptor jesus cry.

Why baby raptor Jesus? He was a grown man, he had a beard.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 02:06 PM
That is exactly what I am saying. If Moss and TO can have a QB that gets them 13+ TD's why not AJ? IMO, he is just as good if not better than those guys. Schaub threw 4 TD passes in the first two games, and 4 TD passes in the last three weeks, that means weeks 3 thru 10 he had 1, this is not a typo, 1, TD pass.

Lets straighten this out. He had 3 his first two games with AJ. He then had 1 each in Weeks 3 and 4 without AJ. So in 5 through 10 he had zero and one game was a bye, one he was out completely and one he was hurt halfway through. So he had 2 1/2 games without a TD

As for the protection issue. I'd chalk that up to a testament to his work in the pocket. From seeing the games since McKinney has been out I wouldn't call it protection. He also stands in and takes some hits...of source he got hurt. The running game just seems to be anything the last two and I wouldn't call Ron Dayne someone that forces teams to change their plan.

FILO_girl
12-03-2007, 02:10 PM
Yes you are right I know nothing about football.

I'd rather have David Carr or Sage for 16 complete games than Schaub for 7, I'd like to think mathematically you can win more games playing 16 games than 7 but if I am mistaken on that line of thinking please let me know.

In the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard (may he rest in peace):




Don't think I'da gone and told that.

:gun:

Double Barrel
12-03-2007, 02:16 PM
Great franchises have great QB's. Period. Why do you think that Dallas and the 49ers and the Steelers have five rings and the Patriots chasing down a fourth? B/C they get great QB play.

Great franchises also have great offensive lines. Period. End of story.

Put Brady or Manning behind our current line, and I'd be willing to be that they would not have the success that they have with their teams. Matter of fact, I have no doubts that they would struggle, as well.

Win the battle of the trenches, and even mediocre QBs can make plays. It's football fundamentals.

Vinny
12-03-2007, 02:17 PM
The QB play is clearly upgraded from the crap the team ran out for half a decade. I think we are fine with Schaub and Rosenfels for the next couple of seasons as long as we keep infusing the team with more talent and have another 2 good drafts. For all we know, Shane Boyd will be the QB here in 3 years so worrying about the future at this position is throwing darts. CC Brown had an awful day and the team really needs help in the secondary, the linebackers, we need a weakside edge rusher and another OLÖ.so we have much bigger problems than at QB for the next year or so. Itís clear to me that if Schaub canít stay healthy that Rosenfels is good enough to step in and manage the team even though he is an INT machine. The QB position isnít our biggest positional problem on this team anymore.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Lets straighten this out. He had 3 his first two games with AJ. He then had 1 each in Weeks 3 and 4 without AJ. So in 5 through 10 he had zero and one game he was a bye, one he was out completely and one he was hurt halfway through. So he had 2 1/2 games without a TD

Lets straighten it out even further, he went 1, 2, 1 (I must have dozed off during the Falcon game) then went 0, 0, 0, 0, DNP.

So effectively win(AJ), win(AJ), Joey harrington out played me, ineffective, ineffective, can't stay healthy, can't stay healthy, can't stay healthy, Win(AJ), Schaub plays santa for Cleveland fans, AJ played?, can't stay healthy and possibly on IR.

That pretty much sums up the season for Matt Schaub. Oh and a 5-7 record, 9 INT's, 7 fumbles(3 lost).

Here is to hoping the Glass man has a better year 2.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 02:22 PM
Great franchises also have great offensive lines. Period. End of story.

Put Brady or Manning behind our current line, and I'd be willing to be that they would not have the success that they have with their teams. Matter of fact, I have no doubts that they would struggle, as well.

Win the battle of the trenches, and even mediocre QBs can make plays. It's football fundamentals.

Pretty well said.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:22 PM
Great franchises also have great offensive lines. Period. End of story.

Put Brady or Manning behind our current line, and I'd be willing to be that they would not have the success that they have with their teams. Matter of fact, I have no doubts that they would struggle, as well.

Win the battle of the trenches, and even mediocre QBs can make plays. It's football fundamentals.

Where have I heard this before?

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:24 PM
The QB play is clearly upgraded from the crap the team ran out for half a decade. I think we are fine with Schaub and Rosenfels for the next couple of seasons as long as we keep infusing the team with more talent and have another 2 good drafts. For all we know, Shane Boyd will be the QB here in 3 years so worrying about the future at this position is throwing darts. CC Brown had an awful day and the team really needs help in the secondary, the linebackers, we need a weakside edge rusher and another OLÖ.so we have much bigger problems than at QB for the next year or so. Itís clear to me that if Schaub canít stay healthy that Rosenfels is good enough to step in and manage the team even though he is an INT machine. The QB position isnít our biggest positional problem on this team anymore.

We should have just kept our 2 second round picks and our original spot in the first and started Sage.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 02:29 PM
Lets straighten it out even further, he went 1, 2, 1 (I must have dozed off during the Falcon game) then went 0, 0, 0, 0, DNP.

So effectively win(AJ), win(AJ), Joey harrington out played me, ineffective, ineffective, can't stay healthy, can't stay healthy, can't stay healthy, Win(AJ), Schaub plays santa for Cleveland fans, AJ played?, can't stay healthy and possibly on IR.

That pretty much sums up the season for Matt Schaub. Oh and a 5-7 record, 9 INT's, 7 fumbles(3 lost).

Here is to hoping the Glass man has a better year 2.

I don't think you can just trot out those stats and mark it as "ineffective" though when you are considering no McKinney and no AJ. We won the Miami game in Week 5 and he was 20 of 34 with 294 yards and 1 pick. I wouldn't say that is horrible at all. The Jacksonville game wasn't pretty but still 259 yards in a horrible team effort. San Diego was terrible. Hurt for Tenn. I mean I wouldn't exactly say that he just busted out in all these games because of no TDs. The team as a whole was abysmal in some losses. I really think you are overinflating some of the problems compared to where we have had bigger issues.

Vinny
12-03-2007, 02:38 PM
We should have just kept our 2 second round picks and our original spot in the first and started Sage.yeah, that's almost as good as the Commander Carlson plan.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:39 PM
I don't think you can just trot out those stats and mark it as "ineffective" though when you are considering no McKinney and no AJ. We won the Miami game in Week 5 and he was 20 of 34 with 294 yards and 1 pick. I wouldn't say that is horrible at all. The Jacksonville game wasn't pretty but still 259 yards in a horrible team effort. San Diego was terrible. Hurt for Tenn. I mean I wouldn't exactly say that he just busted out in all these games because of no TDs. The team as a whole was abysmal in some losses. I really think you are overinflating some of the problems compared to where we have had bigger issues.

I would agree with this to a point but I don't think think the inability to score is over inflating the problem. Schaub does not have enough athleticism to over come a bad passing day. Meaning that unlike VY and Gerrard he can't make plays with his feet and Manning has enough testicle fortitude to will out a win.

And I use those three as example b/c those are the three we are chasing.

Double Barrel
12-03-2007, 02:40 PM
Where have I heard this before?

It's a broken record for our franchise's history.

My point was that your rant about Schaub is incomplete when considering the talent around him. No QB is going to succeed when they are constantly pressured and cannot trust the pocket.

Mailman
12-03-2007, 02:42 PM
I would agree with this to a point but I don't think think the inability to score is over inflating the problem. Schaub does not have enough athleticism to over come a bad passing day. Meaning that unlike VY and Gerrard he can't make plays with his feet and Manning has enough testicle fortitude to will out a win.

And I use those three as example b/c those are the three we are chasing.

What does Schaub not have that Manning, Garrard, and Young all have on their teams?

Hmmm, wonder what it could be.....

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:43 PM
yeah, that's almost as good as the Commander Carlson plan.

In all honesty, what is the difference between Carlson and Schaub? Carlson was good, he had his moments of brilliance, heck he almost threw two thousand yards the season he replaced Moon as the starter until, well, he got hurt, tearing his groin playing the Patriots.

I don't believe there is that much of a difference from Schaub to Sage and not worth what we gave up for Schaub if we already had Sage.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 02:44 PM
We should have just kept our 2 second round picks and our original spot in the first and started Sage.

It's like we got divorced and remarried the next day, regarding dumping Carr and trading for Schaub. The second wife is good but the marriage is probably doomed due to the circumstances. Otherwise, it probably would have worked just fine.

The Texans don't seem to be any better than they were this time last year when looking at the overal talent.

Yes, we improved our QB position, but we don't have two 2nd picks and slipped two slots in the first. Considering where the Texans where last year on talent level, very few players would have been able to bridge that gap.

Which was my whole issue with that trade.

I like Schaub and he probably will be a good QB, but it seems like we are expeting too much from him.

The Texans organizaiton has just been so fascinated with this QB thing beyond what the team has and what the guy can really deliver.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 02:45 PM
I would agree with this to a point but I don't think think the inability to score is over inflating the problem. Schaub does not have enough athleticism to over come a bad passing day. Meaning that unlike VY and Gerrard he can't make plays with his feet and Manning has enough testicle fortitude to will out a win.

And I use those three as example b/c those are the three we are chasing.

That can't all be on Schaub. That is putting all points or scoring on one guys shoulders instead of saying.."if we had a break away back to help the offense, it would open up the passing game." I wouldn't call Brady or Manning "mobile." So why VY or Gerrard as examples. Gerrard has Fred Taylor and MJD and a line. I mean if you have a hurt and ineffective line and a running back that is as slow as Christmas why should your QB have to win with inferior talent?

It's a broken record for our franchise's history.

My point was that your rant about Schaub is incomplete when considering the talent around him. No QB is going to succeed when they are constantly pressured and cannot trust the pocket.

Again!

Mailman
12-03-2007, 02:51 PM
It's like we got divorced and remarried the next day, regarding dumping Carr and trading for Schaub. The second wife is good but the marriage is probably doomed due to the circumstances. Otherwise, it probably would have worked just fine.

The Texans don't seem to be any better than they were this time last year when looking at the overal talent...



I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The team that started off 2-0 and played Indy tough is not the same team we're seeing now. I think it's unfair to compare the 2007 Texans with last year's team considering the way the surgeon's scalpel has gutted the roster.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 02:54 PM
That can't all be on Schaub. That is putting all points or scoring on one guys shoulders instead of saying.."if we had a break away back to help the offense, it would open up the passing game." I wouldn't call Brady or Manning "mobile." So why VY or Gerrard as examples. Gerrard has Fred Taylor and MJD and a line. I mean if you have a hurt and ineffective line and a running back that is as slow as Christmas why should your QB have to win with inferior talent?



Again!
With Manning and Brady its about arm strength and accuracy. Notice that those two always have receivers open? Thats b/c both of those guys can thread the needle and put the ball were it has to go in a hurry. Hell even Gafney is open on the Patriots squad.

The other thing that those guys have that Schaub does not seem to have is a killer instinct. His inability to score once the field has been shortened. Sure Schaub has been good this year going from our 20 to there 40 but its from there 40 to the EZ that we seem to have all kinds of trouble.

Same thing with John Kitna, all kinds of passing yards and no points to show for it.

Vinny
12-03-2007, 02:57 PM
In all honesty, what is the difference between Carlson and Schaub? Carlson was good, he had his moments of brilliance, heck he almost threw two thousand yards the season he replaced Moon as the starter until, well, he got hurt, tearing his groin playing the Patriots.

I don't believe there is that much of a difference from Schaub to Sage and not worth what we gave up for Schaub if we already had Sage.You are making Schaub out to be a scapegoat. Going into a season with Sage and nobody would have been a laughable plan. When the team had a chance to be honest with themselves and not extend Carr to the max and draft a big strong QB they passed. We now have a workable tandem till the rest of the team is built. You can get all bent over the Schaub deal but the QB situation is fine with both of those guys here for now. Sure they should have drafted Culter or Young, but we can't do anything about that and they did the right thing in bringing in Schaub since he brought some credible QB'ing to the franchise (it's almost impossible to win in the NFL with bad quarterbacking...just look at our old teams and the Panthers). This team can win with those guys but won't ever win with the many holes in the roster we see today. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we had Boyd start in a couple of years.....but I don't regret making the Schaub deal even if he was hurt a few times this season. Schaub is still a young QB in my eyes and the jury is out, but he deserves another camp and another shot to lead the team when it has more players.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 03:08 PM
With Manning and Brady its about arm strength and accuracy. Notice that those two always have receivers open? Thats b/c both of those guys can thread the needle and put the ball were it has to go in a hurry. Hell even Gafney is open on the Patriots squad.

The other thing that those guys have that Schaub does not seem to have is a killer instinct. His inability to score once the field has been shortened. Sure Schaub has been good this year going from our 20 to there 40 but its from there 40 to the EZ that we seem to have all kinds of trouble.

Same thing with John Kitna, all kinds of passing yards and no points to show for it.

Yeah and the fact that they both have all day to throw. You know why Brady's receivers are open....because you can only cover a guy for so long in the NFL and if a QB sits in the pocket he can throw perfectly. Also when you have a healthy Randy Moss you can throw it up for grabs. They run 5 WRs sets. Schaub has made some really good throws. The team looks up to him. He is in his first real year. Manning struggled off the bat. I'm not sure how you can compare our new QB getting his first starts vs two SB winning QBs right now. The Pats have had one injury..on defense. Both teams have elite lines.

We have trouble inside the 20s because it takes talent to work when the field shrinks and we don't have it...or a running game. Vinny preached about the field being shorter earlier in the year.

Overall you are expecting a QB in his first year starting and a group of castoffs and one great WR to get over injuries and emulate 2 SB teams. It doesn't jive with our talent.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 03:11 PM
Another thing to consider, the reason Schaub was a 3rd pick, he had a shoulder injury that limited his play in 2003 with Virginia.

Double Barrel
12-03-2007, 03:24 PM
With Manning and Brady its about arm strength and accuracy. Notice that those two always have receivers open? Thats b/c both of those guys can thread the needle and put the ball were it has to go in a hurry. Hell even Gafney is open on the Patriots squad.

Note to TEXANRED: 30 other teams are unhappy with their QBs when comparing them to Manning and Brady.

You said it yourself: "Hell even Gafney is open..." What could possibly be giving Gaffney enough time to get open? Oh yeah, protection.

BTW, you will never be happy with our QB if Manning and Brady are your standards of comparison.

GP
12-03-2007, 03:29 PM
Boyd is on the practice squad, correct?

That means ANY team can sign him away from us.

Doesn't look to promising, IMO, to see him on this team in 2-3 years. it would take BOTH of our QBs getting hurt simultaneously.

I really liked watching Boyd when we played the Cardinals in the preseason. He was moving the ball down the field with his arm AND his legs.

We're soooooooo far away from being a good team. It's almost depressing just thinking about how many moves it takes for us to jump up to playoff contender.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 03:32 PM
You are making Schaub out to be a scapegoat. Going into a season with Sage and nobody would have been a laughable plan. When the team had a chance to be honest with themselves and not extend Carr to the max and draft a big strong QB they passed. We now have a workable tandem till the rest of the team is built. You can get all bent over the Schaub deal but the QB situation is fine with both of those guys here for now. Sure they should have drafted Culter or Young, but we can't do anything about that and they did the right thing in bringing in Schaub since he brought some credible QB'ing to the franchise (it's almost impossible to win in the NFL with bad quarterbacking...just look at our old teams and the Panthers). This team can win with those guys but won't ever win with the many holes in the roster we see today. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we had Boyd start in a couple of years.....but I don't regret making the Schaub deal even if he was hurt a few times this season. Schaub is still a young QB in my eyes and the jury is out, but he deserves another camp and another shot to lead the team when it has more players.

Not trying to make Schaub out to be a scape goat. Carr had to go I don't disagree with that.

The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.

If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 03:32 PM
I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The team that started off 2-0 and played Indy tough is not the same team we're seeing now. I think it's unfair to compare the 2007 Texans with last year's team considering the way the surgeon's scalpel has gutted the roster.


You are assuming that with all those injuries, the Texans would have won if those guys played in those games.

There are only 2 injuries I would concede were very determinental, AJ and Dunta.

The two victories at the beginning of the year were against teams that are not very good.

My opinion, you are just making excuses. Sure, injuries hurt, but that doesn't mean the Texans were going to win anyway. Please tell me, what other teams are going start McKinney, Weary, Pitts, and Salem anyway?

There is a bigger picture to look at.

For the record, I think Schaub can be a good QB, but probably not for the situation he was brought into with the Texans.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 03:35 PM
The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.



Very valid points and I agree with your discussion.

What you posted there, were my exact concerns regarding trading for Schaub. It was too expensive considering the situation.

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 03:36 PM
BTW, you will never be happy with our QB if Manning and Brady are your standards of comparison.

Winning makes me happy and is the standard that I compare the QB to. Your signature says it best, 29-63.

I learned my leason from the Carr years, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a probably a duck.(I know thats cheese, couldn't help it.)

TexansSeminole
12-03-2007, 03:40 PM
Note to TEXANRED: 30 other teams are unhappy with their QBs when comparing them to Manning and Brady.

You said it yourself: "Hell even Gafney is open..." What could possibly be giving Gaffney enough time to get open? Oh yeah, protection.

BTW, you will never be happy with our QB if Manning and Brady are your standards of comparison.

So true.

Schaub is the best QB that the Texans have fielded. He has helped our WR corps grow more than I ever saw with Carr. He helps cut down on sacks because of his quick timing. He still doesn't have a full season starting under his belt. How many games has he started now? Not very many, yet he throws for a good average and completes a good percentage of his passes. Wait until he gets really settled down, behind a line that he can feel confident behind.

Vinny
12-03-2007, 03:40 PM
Boyd is on the practice squad, correct?

That means ANY team can sign him away from us.

Doesn't look to promising, IMO, to see him on this team in 2-3 years. it would take BOTH of our QBs getting hurt simultaneously.

I really liked watching Boyd when we played the Cardinals in the preseason. He was moving the ball down the field with his arm AND his legs.

We're soooooooo far away from being a good team. It's almost depressing just thinking about how many moves it takes for us to jump up to playoff contender.
I'm just using him as an example in calling for patience with the situation and how guys like Tony Romo or Johnny Unitas rise from the back of the pack (Johnny U was cut from the Steelers) sometimes. Sure enough Boyd won't work out and even make the team next year :Tumblewee but things are going on deep in the back of the complex so I guess I'm just saying not to forget these guys. I'm using big name comparison as extreme examples but I think Schaub has played well for a first year starter and if he can get past this injury thing he will be fine. If not we have TEXANRED's Rosenfels-at-QB plan as an acceptable Gifford Neilson style back up plan.

hollywood_texan
12-03-2007, 03:41 PM
I learned my leason from the Carr years, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a probably a duck.(I know thats cheese, couldn't help it.)

Your taking this too far now. Schaub is not Carr. Schaub has the talent, tools, and probably the work ethic to be a good QB.

However, he is not overwhelmingly talented to carry a team if it a has to slide 2 spots in the first round from 8 to 10 and give up two 2nd round draft picks to get him due to the talent issue on the team.

TexansSeminole
12-03-2007, 03:45 PM
If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.

Bro, Schaub got body slammed by Albert Haynesworth, who by the way has gotten alot of media attention for his play this year. He got cheap shotted by a Charger in the head. Concussion. You act like he got touched and he crumpled to the ground. This last game was just one of those where it looked like he just fell on it wrong. Everybody gets injured. Unlucky season for him, behind a line with mostly washed up veterans.

HoustonFrog
12-03-2007, 03:46 PM
Not trying to make Schaub out to be a scape goat. Carr had to go I don't disagree with that.

The question comes down to, was Schaub worth what we paid? Now keep in mind I am not only comparing his play but also his ability to stay healthy. I said it many posts back, you can be the greatest QB ever but if your not on the field it means nothing.

Also, IMO, when Sage comes into the game I do not see the play from our QB go up or down. So to me that says we already had our replacement for Carr without having to give anything up. With our second round pick the Falcons picked up Chris Houston, a position that was and is in a desperate need of attention.

If Schaub would have been able to start all 16 games I might not feel the way I do now. Its the fact that he has only 17 sacks playing 10 games. Out of that he has been knocked out 3 times and kept out of 1.

He is like a heavy weight fighter who can't stay off the mat.

Did you ever think that Sage is good when he can come in as a backup to do what he has to or chunk it around because we are already behind? He did the same in Miami and other places and then failed as a starter when given the chance. The backup is always the most popular guy. Schaub still performed better than Sage. People seem to see TDs when we are behind and forget his ints too.

BTW, why do people keep equating sacks to injuries?If you release the ball 30 times a game and get driven to the turf or hit 25 of them and there are no recorded sacks, you are still getting hit. The hurt doesn't go away and it doesn't make the protection any better for you.

You keep dancing around different arguments...like the ones saying Brady and others have open receivers because they have all day to throw. Then you change and make it about the injuries...another protection issue. Then you say people blame protection when these SB Bs have laser arms and can hit receivers. I mean which argument in this circle is it?

beerlover
12-03-2007, 03:55 PM
surprised Kubiak released Craig Nall seemd like he had upside, not just a career back-up. now I'd run into a :brickwall: to have him back.

dickieb
12-03-2007, 04:30 PM
I am kind of thinking about this situation financially. I'm all for giving the guy more time to prove what he can accomplish, but at what cost? If there is an "out" in the contract does he only get the guaranteed $$$. If he is traded then you possibly get a good draft pick and you don't risk the chance of paying a potential career backup - starter money. If you give him another year to prove himself, do we then have to eat the whole contract? I'm just wondering if anyone knows more about the money side of the deal?

I think this has been good discussion, but we will keep Schaub in my opinon because I think Kubiak's cart is tied to this horse. Let's just hope he continues to improve as we fill the holes on the roster with great talent before he develops the CARR syndrome (Combusted After Repeated Ransacking).

Hopefully we use all our draft picks next year on O-linemen and a running back and we fill other holes in free agency.

4Texans
12-03-2007, 04:44 PM
luckily there are tons of good quarterbacks just lying around out there so it'll be very easy to replace him.

:fishing:

Yep, let's start reeling'em in!!!!

adam
12-03-2007, 04:56 PM
surprised Kubiak released Craig Nall seemd like he had upside, not just a career back-up. now I'd run into a :brickwall: to have him back.

He had his strong suits, but was said to be terrible in practice. If we IR Schaub (which I think we will), we should probably promote Shane Boyd. He has a good enough arm and is wonderful on his feet (which is always a plus with our o-line).

maddogmrb
12-03-2007, 06:12 PM
Great franchises also have great offensive lines. Period. End of story.

Put Brady or Manning behind our current line, and I'd be willing to be that they would not have the success that they have with their teams. Matter of fact, I have no doubts that they would struggle, as well.

Win the battle of the trenches, and even mediocre QBs can make plays. It's football fundamentals.

THIS IS WHAT I WAS SAYING B4 THE SCHAUB TRADE.:texflag:

TEXANRED
12-03-2007, 11:07 PM
You keep dancing around different arguments...like the ones saying Brady and others have open receivers because they have all day to throw. Then you change and make it about the injuries...another protection issue. Then you say people blame protection when these SB Bs have laser arms and can hit receivers. I mean which argument in this circle is it?

I think you are getting your posts mixed up, I say player X is great and others come back with "Well there line is a wall."

It is about the injuries, that is my chief concern. He got hurt in the third week of the season and has been hurt ever since. Some guys are just tougher than others.

Plus he has just played average. 9 TDs. 19th in the league tied with Huard, and Griese.

So right now we have ourselves an injury prone average QB.

adam
12-03-2007, 11:11 PM
So true.

Schaub is the best QB that the Texans have fielded. He has helped our WR corps grow more than I ever saw with Carr. He helps cut down on sacks because of his quick timing. He still doesn't have a full season starting under his belt. How many games has he started now? Not very many, yet he throws for a good average and completes a good percentage of his passes. Wait until he gets really settled down, behind a line that he can feel confident behind.

That's a pretty weak argument considering that the only QB's the Texans have fielded by choice (not because of an injury) have been Carr and Schaub. Schaub is certainly superior to Carr. Hell, Sage would have been an improvement on Carr. Being better than Carr is not really much of an accomplishment.

GP
12-03-2007, 11:57 PM
I'm just using him as an example in calling for patience with the situation and how guys like Tony Romo or Johnny Unitas rise from the back of the pack (Johnny U was cut from the Steelers) sometimes. Sure enough Boyd won't work out and even make the team next year :Tumblewee but things are going on deep in the back of the complex so I guess I'm just saying not to forget these guys. I'm using big name comparison as extreme examples but I think Schaub has played well for a first year starter and if he can get past this injury thing he will be fine. If not we have TEXANRED's Rosenfels-at-QB plan as an acceptable Gifford Neilson style back up plan.

I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.

Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).

We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.

Then I'll buy into the idea of watching the "moves which are being made in the complex."

I am severely underwhelmed by Bob McNearly.

Second Honeymoon
12-04-2007, 12:15 AM
I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.

Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).

We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.

Then I'll buy into the idea of watching the "moves which are being made in the complex."

I am severely underwhelmed by Bob McNearly.

I am with ya, man except I will give Bennett a little love as he is a rookie and shouldnt even be out there. He has gotten burned but he has also made some plays and that is just about what you are looking for out of a rookie CB.

Everything else I think you are spot on. We gotta get some TOP TIER players at some key positions and we have to get some better coaching and if Kubiak can't make that happen then we need to get a head coach who can put together a quality coaching staff because currently its an embarassment.

Rushing 3 DL against VY on 3rd and Long is just ridiculous. How many times do you see like 2 or 3 players in the middle of the field covering NO ONE with our defense. Just pathetic philosophy and a complete disaster. Richard Smith should be fired the morning after the season ends. Get to work early on securing a quality replacement and spare no expense. Spend the $$$.

ObsiWan
12-04-2007, 03:27 AM
I am just having a hard time trusting the moves that we make.

Boselli. Carr. Buchanon. Gado. And now, Matt Schaub.

These are all guys who were brought in to "firm up" a weak area which needs to be solid for us to do well in the NFL, and yet we're no better off after the deal.

nooooo... Boselli was an expansion draft guy and Carr was our first EVER pick - one was damaged goods and the other was waaay over-rated. Point is, since they came in year one of our franchise, how could they "firm up a weak area" that didn't exist??

I'm not sure if Buchanon was a dumb move or a bad fit. I say "bad fit" because he seems to be doing well under Gruden in TB. And TB prides itself on a keeping a good defense so if he wasn't bringing something to the table Gruden would kick him to the curb.

Gado was a desperation move (just like Ron Dayne was) made when we figured out Domanick wasn't ever going to play again. You might have noticed that the guy we traded for Gado isn't really contributing either. I'd call that trade a lose/lose because neither team got any sustained value from it.

Schaub is the only guy of those you listed that actually fits the catagory of "brought in to be a positional upgrade". And considering who he replaced, I'd say he fits that bill.

Now did we need him bad enough to give up two first day picks while we were in rebuild mode? That's a different question. As I keep saying, while he's two picks better than Carr, I'm not convinced he's two picks better than Sage.

Kubiak hit pay-dirt with Charles Spencer, so I'll give him that one. Mario might end up being OK. Amobi is faring well for an interior rookie lineman. But the secondary is a complete joke. If Fred Bennett is the future, then we got a problem. I don't see nearly as much of a future for him as I think we could see from Dunta (the quickness, the toughness, the knack for being near the ball all the time).


I find it interesting that even though Charles Spencer has only played two games in two years but he's a "home run". How come he's not a "glass boy" or "injury prone"? At the most he should have the same "incomplete" that some folks are giving Schaub.

Our secondary needs improvement; doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see that. But ease up on Fred Bennett; he is a ROOKIE. He will get better.
When Dunta was drafted we already had two of the best CBs in the league at the time in Marcus Coleman and Pro Bowler Aaron Glenn (made the Pro Bowl with the Texans no less!). My point is that Dunta, as a rookie, had two of the best in the league at their positions to watch and learn from. Who does Bennett get to watch? Petey Faggins. Its a wonder the kid can cover at all.

But I have to I agree, in its present state, the secondary is somewhat sad. Just ease up off of Freddy B. I think that if Dunta comes back to his old self and Bennett isn't totally scarred for life from the Faggins influence :D, we should have a decent set of CBs. Not as good as Glenn & Coleman but pretty good.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing us draft a true, ball-hawking FS in the upcoming draft. Because we have a bunch of SS trying to play FS and its not working. I am curious to see if Brandon Harrison pans out at all. I wouldn't bet on it. He got to camp late (some silly NCAA rule) then got hurt. He has a big incomplete IMO.

We need a HOME RUN of a draft. We need that much-talked-about free'd up cap space to be used to the last penny on STAR QUALITY players at key positions, and we need Bob's wallet to open up for quality assistants if Gary Kubiak is to have any chance at all.


That's one thing I'll agree with; we need to make some changes starting with the defensive coordinator. A new O-line coach wouldn't hurt either.

And I'll argue that the '06 draft WAS a home run.. Think about it. If you get two or three quality players out of your seven rounds, that's usually a good draft. We got five.
Ryans (interesting that you neglected to list the Rookie of the Year among Kubiak's moves)
Daniels (or him)
Winston (...or him)
Williams
Spencer (by your evaluation)

The jury is still out on the 07 class but I'd say it gets at least a B-
Okoye, J. Jones, Bennett, & Zack Diles
All have contributed positively.
Studdard, Frye, Brandon Harrison
Jury is still out because all three got hurt in camp and have yet to see any playing time.

But again, four keepers out of seven picks. Not bad. Maybe not a "home run" but surely a ground rule double.
:D

buddyboy
12-04-2007, 12:04 PM
Sorry, couldn't help but notice that you said Zac Diles contributed. What has he done so far, I haven't seen or heard of him much since he was drafted.

HOU-TEX
12-04-2007, 12:08 PM
Sorry, couldn't help but notice that you said Zac Diles contributed. What has he done so far, I haven't seen or heard of him much since he was drafted.

Diles contributes on practically every special teams unit. He's on the field quite often. He's done well.:)

Errant Hothy
12-04-2007, 12:47 PM
A comment from an ESPN chat:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/index

Scott (CT)
Regardless of the numbers, vince young is starting to look like a top 10 qb. after manning, brady, romo, favre, roethlisberger, hasselback, brees, and palmer, i can't honestly think of a qb i'd rather have than young. thoughts?

MATT WILLIAMSON
I like VY a lot. Growing up quick. Not yet a great-or even good-passer, but he is improving and takes it very seriously. In a great situation. Who else would I consider? Cutler. D Anderson. Schaub (if he can stay healthy). Bulger and McNabb-if healthy. Campbell. Not saying I would take all these guys over VY, but it is close for sure.

dickieb
12-04-2007, 03:13 PM
Here is what I found on the contract details for Schaub (looks like there is an "out" after 3 years and after paying him 20 mil)...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2808100

Here's what I found on Rosenfels...
Houston Texans QB Sage Rosenfels signed a four-year contract with base salaries of $600,000 (2006), $1.1 million (2007), $1.35 million (2008), and $1.35 million (2009).

Runner
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
I find it interesting that even though Charles Spencer has only played two games in two years but he's a "home run". How come he's not a "glass boy" or "injury prone"? At the most he should have the same "incomplete" that some folks are giving Schaub.


Spencer didn't play long enough to show if the Pro-Bowl talk during pre-season was justified or not, so to many he is that caliber of player. He probably would have been pretty good, but I think the lofty expectations for his first year were a little bit over blown (see Jones, Jacoby). Some of his deficiencies were overlooked because he was "nasty" and the new guy is always popular.