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View Full Version : Mario Williams is NOT a bust after all.


TEXANRED
11-06-2007, 01:50 PM
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?

TexansLucky13
11-06-2007, 01:53 PM
People plan their games around guys like Freeney and Strahan. Not so much around Mario yet. The reason those guys have fewer tackles is because the offense tries to make plays away from them.

I agree he is not a bust, but I just felt that needed to be added to this. He is well on his way to becoming a playmaker and game changer.

:texflag:

Errant Hothy
11-06-2007, 01:54 PM
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...s?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?

Yes, becuase to some fans he will forever be linked to YKW and Reggie Bush, and it does not mater that either those two are not living up to the hype.

Mario will never, and I mean never escape the 06 draft, espically from the sea of fairweather sports fans in Houston; and that's a shame.

Leahmic223
11-06-2007, 02:02 PM
Yes, becuase to some fans he will forever be linked to YKW and Reggie Bush, and it does not mater that either those two are not living up to the hype.

Mario will never, and I mean never escape the 06 draft, espically from the sea of fairweather sports fans in Houston; and that's a shame.

Agreed.

powerfuldragon
11-06-2007, 02:02 PM
it's a little sad that we even have to reassure ourselves he's not a bust.

Ole Miss Texan
11-06-2007, 02:05 PM
Nobody has really been lighting it up it seems.

However Jamaal Anderson has been playing...espn must have messed up their stats.

8 games(8 Games Started):16 tackes (12 solo/4 assist), 0 sacks, 2 pass def.


Mario has a ways to go to become a really good DE. His pass rush his suspect but teams have been consistently running away from him, he's a good run stopper and tackler.

badboy
11-06-2007, 02:08 PM
Why does it have to be bust or hall of fame? Why can't I as a fan root for him yet be honest enough to say he has not done as expected? If he gets four more sacks and several QB hurries in next seven games, then he is a good DE. Not great, but good. In his next year, he then should move to a very good DE.

gtexan02
11-06-2007, 02:42 PM
I dont think too many people have decided he's a bust.

He was hurt last year, and is playing very well this year. He's just not yet lived up to that 1st overall pick billing yet


Our DL as a unit, the 1st round crew, even though many are playing well individually, is a bust IMO

Dallas_Texan
11-06-2007, 03:09 PM
So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?



Of course they are......and he's not a bust AT ALL. And yes, Defenses DO gameplan around him. They also gameplan(ned) around Dunta. You're crazy if you think they don't. Just b/c he doesn't have the stats doesn't mean he hasn't played extremely well. Those of you hyped up on Okoye should know that at least two of his sacks were people running scared from Mario. He's done well. Not great. Just like VY and Reggie. None have lived up to they hype, and that's b/c there is TOO MUCH HYPE. Every year people act like there are 4 LaDanian Tomlinson's in the draft, and 4 Joe Montana's. They're wrong every year. I'm very happy with Mario's play, and I even think TJ is stepping up. Once Okoye had another year under his belt, they will be feared in 2009!!!!!!!

HoustonFrog
11-06-2007, 03:20 PM
The Freeney thing is a myth and an excuse. They just had a piece on the Colts defense a couple of weeks ago on ESPN and the whole point of their offseason was to stop concentrating on sack numbers and to become more of a force holding the line and becoming a more complete D. It has worked so far. Freeney gets much more attention than Mario and is always gameplanned for. Julius Peppers started out as a force and is having an off year and now he is like Mario too?I'm not getting the comparisons.

Of course they are......and he's not a bust AT ALL. And yes, Defenses DO gameplan around him. They also gameplan(ned) around Dunta. You're crazy if you think they don't. Just b/c he doesn't have the stats doesn't mean he hasn't played extremely well. Those of you hyped up on Okoye should know that at least two of his sacks were people running scared from Mario. He's done well. Not great. Just like VY and Reggie. None have lived up to they hype, and that's b/c there is TOO MUCH HYPE. Every year people act like there are 4 LaDanian Tomlinson's in the draft, and 4 Joe Montana's. They're wrong every year. I'm very happy with Mario's play, and I even think TJ is stepping up. Once Okoye had another year under his belt, they will be feared in 2009!!!!!!!

Can you pass what you are having over here?I don't think Mario is a bust per se. I just don't see what you are seeing and I don't see a guy who is living up to potential yet. We will see.

Double Barrel
11-06-2007, 03:26 PM
I haven't seen Mario called a bust by many folks not Chronicle sportswriters or sports talk hosts.

Mario is going to be alright. We just have to be patient about it and don't set ourselves up for unrealistic expectations.

Htownsportsfan
11-06-2007, 03:27 PM
Anyone catch James Harrisons performance for the Steelers last night?

9 Tackles
3 1/2 sacks
6 Qb Hurries
1 Int
2 forced fumbles
1 fumble recovery

Just freakin Awesome!

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Anyone catch James Harrisons performance for the Steelers last night?

9 Tackles
3 1/2 sacks
6 Qb Hurries
1 Int
2 forced fumbles
1 fumble recovery

Just freakin Awesome!

Too bad Baltimore isnt on our schedule this year... Steve McNair looked like the demon child of Drew Bledsoe and David Carr last night.

stingray
11-06-2007, 03:37 PM
Let me first say that I am NOT saying that Mario Williams is a bust. He has been dissapointing so far for being a #1 overall pick. But he has plenty of time to improve. But on the players you mentioned, you are picking and choosing.

Michael Strahan- Secound round pick. He wasn't supposed to come in and dominate right away. He got better as his career came along. But he wasn't even a first round pick.

Julius Peppers- Yeah he has 1.5 sacks this year. But look at his first 5 years in the league.

2002-12 sacks
2003- 7 sacks
2004-11 sacks
2005-10 Sacks
2006- 13 sacks

Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks

My point is that we don't know if Mario is a bust yet, But to me he hasn't lived up to his potential. He can improve just like Michael strahan did. He is still young, but he has to have the drive and not just rely on talent alone.

Htownsportsfan
11-06-2007, 03:38 PM
Too bad Baltimore isnt on our schedule this year... Steve McNair looked like the demon child of Drew Bledsoe and David Carr last night.

Man I wish he would retire. I always respected his toughness but he has hung on too long, add to that he joined a Ravens team that has had nothing but offensive struggles since Jamal did his stint in the pokey.

kastofsna
11-06-2007, 03:38 PM
it's been brutal watching Gaines Adams this year. completely outmatched on every play. although he's looked much better against Arizona. but man, it's been tough to watch.

ironically he's been great against the run, which everyone thought he could never do.

TexansSeminole
11-06-2007, 03:51 PM
it's been brutal watching Gaines Adams this year. completely outmatched on every play. although he's looked much better against Arizona. but man, it's been tough to watch.

ironically he's been great against the run, which everyone thought he could never do.

I'm in Tally so I get Bucs games every week as well. I agree with you, and he has not looked anything like he did in college either. It's odd watching him play this year. I thought he was going to make some sort of immediate impact but he looks non existant for most of the games I have watched. I still have faith in him.

I think Mario has been a solid young player. He hasn't done anything to suggest he should be benched or anything of that nature but he hasn't shown me why he was selected #1 overall. However, if Vince or Reggie had come here I would be saying the same thing. It would be interesting to see how many people were happy with their #1 overall pick's performance for the first 3 years of their career. I was not happy with David Carr's, but I am not so sure it is representative of the #1s.

Texans_Chick
11-06-2007, 03:59 PM
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

badboy
11-06-2007, 04:04 PM
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

That would be great info except we have gone up against some pretty regular offensive lines and average Qbs. Even with all you say, Mario should be better.

The1ApplePie
11-06-2007, 04:05 PM
Texans_Chick made some good points

He has the tools to be a monster, but inconsistence is his biggest weakness right now.

They guy can go out and dominate an O-Line one week, then have Reggie "Bust" Williams make him his ***** another week.

Errant Hothy
11-06-2007, 04:07 PM
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).

Sorry if I sound like a broken record today. :devilpig:

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 04:08 PM
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.

Way to pick our spirits up TC... SO much to look forward to..... *shoots self*



J/K TC...

Second Honeymoon
11-06-2007, 04:24 PM
Mario hasn't been a bust but he hasn't lived up to the pick we used on him or the money we pay him to play football. without a doubt.

My problem with Mario is that he lacks speed and quickness and was touted as someone who would be able to sack Peyton. Most of his sacks have been coverage sacks or sacks that have been funneled his way. He had that great one handed sack this year and he has been living off that one for some time now. He needs to improve his technique and learn to get off blocks. He spends too much time engaged and with his hands on the OL. He needs to learn to shirk those OL and get to the passer.

I saw him play with more discipline on Sunday though and more fire as well. I hope the guy progresses into a good player but I don't think anyone being critical of him is necessarily a bad fan or impatient. They are just expecting more for what we pay him and what we gave up/passed on to take him. I am not going to fault a fan for that. If we were 6-3, no one would even bring up Mario but because the team has been struggling with wins and sacks, Mario is an easy and legit target. Not so much the player, but the selection as #1 overall.

If Mario was a 3rd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much, but I doubt he would have earned the starting job.

Vinny
11-06-2007, 04:24 PM
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 04:26 PM
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.

I thought folks would have figured that out over the great debate about HWSRN....

Texans_Chick
11-06-2007, 04:34 PM
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.

True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.

Mr teX
11-06-2007, 04:38 PM
I thought folks would have figured that out over the great debate about HWSRN....

apparently not..

I also feel the whole argument that "he needs to perfect other moves.." is b/s too. I mean i watch other top DE's & they basically have 1 move or 1 thing that they're great at that leads to them getting most of their sacks.

Taylor - speed on the edge with the stiff arm
Freeney- speed spin with the occassional speed dip
Peppers - see Taylor
Strahan- see Taylor

etc.

I think it's cool that he tries them out to set guys up, but he looks best when he just bull rushes over the guy like he did in the giants game last year & like he did against KC this year.

badboy
11-06-2007, 04:43 PM
If you are going to use stats or any other system of measurement for a player such as Strahan, Peppers or anyone, then the same system of measurement should be used for our guys. DEs are evaluated by sacks, hurries and tying up o linemen. Mario has not done that well.

eriadoc
11-06-2007, 04:43 PM
If Mario was a 2nd Round Pick, no one would be complaining nearly as much.

That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).

badboy
11-06-2007, 04:49 PM
That's very true, but it would also be nice if the fans recognized that Mario didn't select himself 1st overall. He has work to do, but he can only do what he can. As long as he continues working and continues improving, I have no problem with Mario, even though I might have a problem with the pick itself (which I don't, personally, except he wasn't D'Brick).My concern is if Mario is having a Travis Johnson 2006 season? I do not compare the talents of both coming out of college, but Johnson imo has looked better than Mario this season. That is not because he has another year on Williams, it is because he got his butt chewed.

Second Honeymoon
11-06-2007, 04:53 PM
True. And that's what makes it frustrating for fans because most fans don't really know how to evaluate a lineman.

And because of the emotions surrounding last year's pick, it's hard to get straight talk about Williams, without junk being talked about.

The coaches say stuff positive about him based on their tape and what they've called, and a lot of people think that is all pravda.

You can do your own evaluations, but it is semi-limited from your TV watching based on angles. You can watch it live and have a sense of things, but that's only once.

I think the truth is between outstanding and bust. I think a lot of people forget he came out as a true junior and the limitations of playing on this defense. He came onto a defense where they need him to play awesome because there is so much suck on it and the schemes are suspect.

It is interesting to read that they tried him out a little at outside linebacker in a few situations and liked what they saw. I know that he did a bit of that in college.


Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.

I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.

Specnatz
11-06-2007, 04:54 PM
Mario Williams is playing on a horrible defense.

His "mentors" are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver.

He is playing with mostly inexperienced guys and street free agents.

And an inexperienced guy is running the defense. Someone with no philosophy or track record other than saying he likes running an aggressive 4-3.

And the secondary is by most accounts the worst in the league, so you can't expect much as far as coverage sacks.

Williams does stuff that doesn't show up in stats as far as his hurries. It was interesting to see how many times that the Raiders ran away from him the last game.

That being said, you see moments of potential mixed with needing to work on technique and not overpursing.

Those who question his effort, I do not think are watching closely.

As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.


I said something similar to this in another thread and when I do speak of things Mario did in a particular game I am called blind, homer or told I have a man crush.

Like the saying goes, it is hard to sore like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

TC, just curious and sorta on the same subject line with coaching. the Ravens look like they are in for one long season and a new coaching regime could be taking over. Whom out there would you like to see take over as the Texans "D" coordinator, line coach and secondary coach?

So far I think it is unanimous that Richard Smith needs to go, as does Jon Hoke; but do you think Franklin and Bush needs to go as well?

Thorn
11-06-2007, 04:56 PM
As for the bust talk from the Chronicle, I think at least some of the writers there feel the need to scapegoat. I also think that some are upset that Williams isn't as niiiiiiiiice to them as they would want him to be.

You know, basically, they want to be able to call him a mistake every chance they get, but don't understand why he isn't open and niiiiiiiice in talking to them.


I've said it beofer and I'll say it again...the only thing the Chron staff holds against Mario is that his name is Mario Williams and not Vince Young. Or in other words they are acting more like fans then some of the most fair-weather of fans.

None of those guys have ever moved past the 2006 Draft, and from the looks of it hey never will (in what is another example of the crap journalism that comes out of the Chron's sports department).

There are reasons why I don't pay any attention to Chronicle writers, and this is some of them. I swear, reading ill informed remarks about the Texans on ESPN and other national sites isn't near as bad as reading some of the shit I've read from the Chronicle writers.

infantrycak
11-06-2007, 05:46 PM
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.

True. One thing you can't see, and this comment is not directed specifically to Mario but he is affected by it, is how NFL officials are not calling holding this year. It seems as if only blitzers and speed DE's are allowed to get to the QB and anyone else is fair game. I obviously watch more Texans football than other teams, but across the board this year power DE's and DT's are getting raped and the old conventional wisdom rules are out the window. I have seen at least 15 instances this year of an OLmen with his arm around the throat of a DLmen because his body is almost or entirely behind the DLmen and there is no flag. There was a play last weekend where a guy almost saddled TJ and rode him to the ground. Also, as always--discretionary calls hurt bad teams more than superstar teams.

TEXANRED
11-06-2007, 05:51 PM
Mario is going to be alright. We just have to be patient about it and don't set ourselves up for unrealistic expectations.

That is the trap I myself have fallen into. Impatience, and unrealistic expectations. I am wanting that Sean Jones/William Fuller combo. I fooled myself into thinking that Mario by himself could make Babin good. I forget sometimes that he is still a kid playing a grown mans game.

HoustonFrog
11-06-2007, 05:53 PM
Texans Chick has a good point that Mario hasn't played with a lot of talent around him. I think we all get that. I just think if your the #1 overall pick you should be making players around you better and not need to have better players around you in order to excel.
I agree with everything you said though, and its obvious that the coachspeak has been a little 'Pravda' because if he was truly 'exceptional' as Kubiak labeled him post-Chargers blowout, well then why the hell would they move him to OLB. They are just trying to get him in a position where he can truly be 'exceptional' and not just be mislabeled as such by the HC in order to deflect criticism and be a homer coach.

If he was so exceptional, he wouldnt be moved around...so Gary was full of it in essence. oh well, not the first time Gary has been full of it...Kubiak claiming Carr was good enough to be the Texans QB was the first load of crap...probably wont be the last.

And there has been my rub the whole time with him. I was never a VY or Bush guy..even though I respect both greatly and see the benefits...I was more trade down and get Mario at maybe 3. But no trades and he would have been gone from what we here. It isn't his fault he is picked there but over history that is the stigma with being the pick. The way the pick was explained to us was we had to keep up with the Colts and be a pressure D and he was the speed rusher we needed. So now we are being patient again and waiting for him to develop?That is what kills me. Its Year 6 and we are still talking patience with picks, etc.

TEXANRED
11-06-2007, 05:59 PM
Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks



I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.

TEXANRED
11-06-2007, 06:11 PM
you can't look at a stat line and figure out if a lineman is playing well or not.

Sure you can. I call it production. Not all stats are meaningless.

Think of these stats as his job evaluation. Is Mario doing his job? PD tells me that he is being disruptive in the passing game, getting into passing lanes and disrupting the play, Solo tackles tell me that he is staying home, playing his assignments and filling the gaps, Assist tell me that he is pursuing the play and hustling down field, Sacks mean he is doing his job as a pass rush DE.

QB stats I will agree with you that you cant judge a QB by just a stat line, and yes there are things that DE's do that don't show up, but the stat line is a good tale tell of what a Dlineman is doing.

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 06:11 PM
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.

Thats actually pretty interesting.. Maybe Freeney should go to the NFC South.

TexansSeminole
11-06-2007, 06:14 PM
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.

That may be true to an extent but Freeney is a damn good football player.

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 06:22 PM
If you remove the sacks from the equation;
2006 Freeney had 26 solo tackles with 3 assists and 4 passes defended.
2006 Williams had 35 solo tackles with 12 assists and 3 passes defended.

2007 (through 8 weeks) Freeney has 17 solo tackles with 3 assists and 0 passes defended (note: 3.5 sacks)
2006 Williams had 18 solo tackles with 5 assists and 1 pass defended (note: 4 sacks)




Just sayin'.........

Vinny
11-06-2007, 06:24 PM
If you remove the sacks from the equation;
2006 Freeney had 26 solo tackles with 3 assists and 4 passes defended.
2006 Williams had 35 solo tackles with 12 assists and 3 passes defended.

2007 (through 8 weeks) Freeney has 17 solo tackles with 3 assists and 0 passes defended (note: 3.5 sacks)
2006 Williams had 18 solo tackles with 5 assists and 1 pass defended (note: 4 sacks)




Just sayin'.........How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'

ATX
11-06-2007, 06:26 PM
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'

Depends if they want to win now or down the road. Mario is 4-5 years younger than Freeney right?

Seems like Freeney's numbers are down since Carr left.

Vinny
11-06-2007, 06:32 PM
Depends if they want to win now or down the road. Mario is 4-5 years younger than Freeney right?

Seems like Freeney's numbers are down since Carr left.Most teams want to win now and don't really subscribe to the he sucks now, but he sure looks good in shorts so I'll keep paying him top dollar...'cept for a few teams of course (won't mention any names). Freeney's numbers are down because teams scheme around him more and more. That's what a difference maker does...if teams pay too much attention to him it allows others to make plays.

Texan_Bill
11-06-2007, 06:32 PM
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'

Just making a point about the 'dreaded stats' routine. If someone had never seen the two play and read those stats, they would assume that Mario is just as good as, if not better. Those that watch and know a little something about football know differently..

One tangible is that one of those guys has the ability to take over a game and enforce his will on it, and the other can't... yet.

Fox
11-06-2007, 06:32 PM
This is obviously a very interesting topic and will continue to be for all Texans fans for the foreseeable future. We invested the first overall pick in the draft in a defensive lineman when two of the most prolific offensive players in college history were still on the board. None of the top 3 in that draft, IMO, have made the impact people expected them to make yet. Mario isn't hitting double digit sacks. Young has accounted for only 5 TD's, but 9 turnovers in seven starts so far this year, and if it weren't for the Titans stout D you'd hear much more clamoring about that. Bush is playing like a mediocre starting back, averaging less than 4 YPC, and only 5.5 yards per reception. These guys were hyped up to be immediate superstars, men among boys, and it's just not happening yet.

I like TC's point about playing for a green DC with a lackluster secondary behind him. I see Mario around the QB all the time, but he's always a few ticks too late. If our secondary forces the QB to hold onto the ball a little longer, many of those near misses are going to turn into sacks. Mario didn't do anything different, he didn't get there any faster, but his efforts would show up in the stat column more often.

The big crux of the discontent with Mario in Houston, IMO, has to do with this:
1. We've seen Bush juke out a whole team for what should've been a 10 yard loss and then run for 60 yards. Normal players do not make that kind of play.
2. We've seen Young break out of potential sacks and tear off a 49 yard run in the waning seconds of a game against the team that passed on him for the winning score. Normal players do not make that kind of play.
3. Mario has had good games, ie. against the Chiefs this year, the Giants and the Dolphins last year. We've seen him push guys backwards alot. We haven't seen him spin out of the arms of an OT and throw a blocking running back aside like a rag doll on his way to obliterating the QB in 1 second flat. We haven't seen him make a big, glitzy pass rush where he dominated the opposition and laid out the QB at that critical moment in the game. He hasn't done anything that makes you say, man that was a special play, a normal guy couldn't have done that.


Obviously defense isn't as highlight reel friendly as offense, but the average fan doesn't have the time or resources to break down game film. They want to see the big sparkly highlights. To me, I've appreciated Kubiak's candor in his interviews and if he says Mario's playing well then I trust him. I've seen Mario make some nice plays, if he's doing some great things that just aren't showing up on TV, and Kubiak thinks it's making a big difference in helping us win football games then I'm content with that.

Vinny
11-06-2007, 06:36 PM
Just making a point about the 'dreaded stats' routine. If someone had never seen the two play and read those stats, they would assume that Mario is just as good as, if not better. Those that watch and know a little something about football know differently..

One tangible is that one of those guys has the ability to take over a game and enforce his will on it, and the other can't... yet.yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.

texasguy346
11-06-2007, 06:39 PM
yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.

Maybe next year if the NFL allows a defensive player to have a helmet similar to the one that QBs wear we can give that helmet to Mario & have someone constantly slinging "Yo Mama" jokes at him throughout the game. Get him good & mad.

Specnatz
11-06-2007, 06:42 PM
yeah, I agree...just playing off those stats with my post. Frankly I think that Mario has too much physical ability to give up on. Hopefully he is just a slow learner.

That and coaches can actually coach him, but they maybe asking to much.

Vinny
11-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Maybe next year if the NFL allows a defensive player to have a helmet similar to the one that QBs wear we can give that helmet to Mario & have someone constantly slinging "Yo Mama" jokes at him throughout the game. Get him good & mad.I'm figuring that when they insult him they can also scream that it's 3rd and inches...THEY MAY RUN THE BALL! DON'T SPRINT AROUND THE TACKLE THIS TIME!

texasguy346
11-06-2007, 06:53 PM
I'm figuring that when they insult him they can also scream that it's 3rd and inches...THEY MAY RUN THE BALL! DON'T SPRINT AROUND THE TACKLE THIS TIME!

With TJ it's easy. You just tell him that the QB has a Snickers bar in his back pocket. That gets him after the QB every time. Mario doesn't fall for the Snickers bit.

nunusguy
11-06-2007, 06:54 PM
How many teams would take Mario over Freeney? Probably zero since teams scheme around Freeney. Just sayin'2

I really wonder ? If they were the same age no doubt Freeney, but Freeney was 27 in Feb while Mario turned just 22 the month before. I dunno, maybe there'rd be a couple takers for Mario ?
If Mario works as hard as he reportedly does and with his raw athletic ability,
logically it's difficult to imagine him not being a high impact player at some point in his career ?

The1ApplePie
11-06-2007, 07:11 PM
Not sure if age factors into D-Linemen much. Many of the most dominate D-Linemen out there are ancient.

As long as you can still get pressure (DE)
Or be fat and clog the running lanes (DT)

You will have a career.

Not so much for an old RB or DB

Runner
11-06-2007, 07:13 PM
Not bust, but was he worth the #1 pick and his salary?

Follow-up: is any unproven player worth that kind of money?

Double Barrel
11-06-2007, 07:15 PM
And there has been my rub the whole time with him. I was never a VY or Bush guy..even though I respect both greatly and see the benefits...I was more trade down and get Mario at maybe 3. But no trades and he would have been gone from what we here. It isn't his fault he is picked there but over history that is the stigma with being the pick. The way the pick was explained to us was we had to keep up with the Colts and be a pressure D and he was the speed rusher we needed. So now we are being patient again and waiting for him to develop?That is what kills me. Its Year 6 and we are still talking patience with picks, etc.

I certainly understand the frustration of being a Texans fan into what appears to be the sixth straight season of losing records.

But, we have to keep in mind that it's only 1.5 seasons of Kubiak and Mario. That just isn't enough time to really make a final judgement, IMO. We see tendencies to shape our perceptions, and that's fair. But what other choice do we really have than to be patient and hope that it comes together by the 2008 season?

Buffi2
11-06-2007, 07:24 PM
With TJ it's easy. You just tell him that the QB has a Snickers bar in his back pocket. That gets him after the QB every time. Mario doesn't fall for the Snickers bit.

Ah, but tell him the QB has a new remote control car and Mario will be so there!

eriadoc
11-06-2007, 07:37 PM
Not bust, but was he worth the #1 pick and his salary?

Follow-up: is any unproven player worth that kind of money?

That's an absolute hell no. The rookie salaries and signing bonuses are out of control in the NFL. How much money did Jamarcus Russell make this year for not doing anything of note? How much of that was guaranteed?

Vinny
11-06-2007, 07:41 PM
That's an absolute hell no. The rookie salaries and signing bonuses are out of control in the NFL. How much money did Jamarcus Russell make this year for not doing anything of note? How much of that was guaranteed?He is learning how to play NFL QB all year....Carson Palmer did the same thing his rookie year and I bet the Bengals have no regrets over not playing him as a rookie....that said, the rookie wage scale is broke and needs fixing.

nunusguy
11-06-2007, 08:15 PM
Follow-up: is any unproven player worth that kind of money?

Must be, because every year the #1 pick gets that kind of money again, from
usuaually a different team, again. Plus the nice little incremental, cost-of-living increase, again. Happens every year.

Runner
11-06-2007, 08:42 PM
Must be, because every year the #1 pick gets that kind of money again, from
usuaually a different team, again. Plus the nice little incremental, cost-of-living increase, again. Happens every year.

And pro sports teams don't ever throw away money on players that aren't worth it.

TheRealJoker
11-06-2007, 09:01 PM
I think that a lot of people down on Mario seems to forget that he is only 22 years old and I believe is the 64th youngest player in the league.

Not to mention that Richard Smith's defense hasn't exactly brought out the best in our defense. We have invested too many high round draft picks on this defense to be anything but dominant and I dont think enough people are placing blame on our vanilla defensive schemes.

nunusguy
11-06-2007, 09:11 PM
Not to mention that Richard Smith's defense hasn't exactly brought out the best in our defense. We have invested too many high round draft picks on this defense to be anything but dominant and I dont think enough people are placing blame on our vanilla defensive schemes.

Sure Mario has been a disappointment so far, but he's still very young and time, lots & lots of it, is on his side and ours.
But one has to wonder that if Mario would have ended up with the coachs in oh, I dunno, lets say the the New England Patriots, what would those coachs and that team have done with Mario by this point in time ?

New_Texans
11-06-2007, 09:47 PM
Of course they are......and he's not a bust AT ALL. And yes, Defenses DO gameplan around him. They also gameplan(ned) around Dunta. You're crazy if you think they don't. Just b/c he doesn't have the stats doesn't mean he hasn't played extremely well. Those of you hyped up on Okoye should know that at least two of his sacks were people running scared from Mario. He's done well. Not great. Just like VY and Reggie. None have lived up to they hype, and that's b/c there is TOO MUCH HYPE. Every year people act like there are 4 LaDanian Tomlinson's in the draft, and 4 Joe Montana's. They're wrong every year. I'm very happy with Mario's play, and I even think TJ is stepping up. Once Okoye had another year under his belt, they will be feared in 2009!!!!!!!

Dont forget Adrian Peterson...NOW HE should have been the one all hyped up, not Reggie Bush.

HSZ
11-06-2007, 09:48 PM
To determine the "bust"-iness of a player, shouldn't you compare it to the players drafted around him? Not necessarily the same position. So, for example -- Reggie Bush, Vince Young, etc.

And I don't think bust refers to the player as much as the choice by the team. It's a bust if somebody else picked after your player would have made a bigger and better impact for your team.

Pantherstang84
11-06-2007, 09:48 PM
I dont think too many people have decided he's a bust.

He was hurt last year, and is playing very well this year. He's just not yet lived up to that 1st overall pick billing yet


Our DL as a unit, the 1st round crew, even though many are playing well individually, is a bust IMO
And was it his choice he was chosen #1 overall? What was he supposed to say? "No Thanks. I don't want all of that money. As a matter of fact, you should go get that guy from UT ahead of me."

It is not his fault he was chosen first, yet people hold it against him. I just don't get it.

False Start
11-06-2007, 09:59 PM
The guy will never live down the hype and controversy of him being picked # 1 . In some people's eyes he will be a bust no matter what .

Specnatz
11-06-2007, 10:11 PM
The guy will never live down the hype and controversy of him being picked # 1 . In some people's eyes he will be a bust no matter what .

What hype? Mario was not hyped by anyone. If you go by the Chron and other people Mario is worse than Ryan Leaf, Sam Bowie, Jeff George and Todd Marinovich combined.

Runner
11-06-2007, 10:12 PM
It is not his fault he was chosen first, yet people hold it against him. I just don't get it.

No, it is an indictment of the team's choice. People hold it against the team.

Mario is an average lineman making best player-on-the-team money. The team made a mistake.

Mario took what was offered. Good for him.

The only gray area is this: could Mario do something different - attitude, practice habits, study, whatever - to make himself better? If he isn't doing all he can, then shame on him for not doing everything he can to earn that exorbitant paycheck.

StarStruck
11-06-2007, 10:58 PM
Too early to know if Mario is a bust or not. To be fair, why not wait until around year five, then decide.
:)

False Start
11-06-2007, 11:01 PM
What hype? Mario was not hyped by anyone. If you go by the Chron and other people Mario is worse than Ryan Leaf, Sam Bowie, Jeff George and Todd Marinovich combined.


I was just referring to him being some supposed sack machine in college . When he really had one good stretch of games . Thats all man . I was just stating my opinion thats it .

Napa Auto Parts
11-06-2007, 11:19 PM
Its sad when we have to tell ourselves Mario is not a Bust and i agree he is not a bust yet. but 2 more seasons of this subpar play and yes he will be a bust. people will hang him out to dry even more than David Carr.

HoustonFrog
11-06-2007, 11:21 PM
I certainly understand the frustration of being a Texans fan into what appears to be the sixth straight season of losing records.

But, we have to keep in mind that it's only 1.5 seasons of Kubiak and Mario. That just isn't enough time to really make a final judgement, IMO. We see tendencies to shape our perceptions, and that's fair. But what other choice do we really have than to be patient and hope that it comes together by the 2008 season?

I agree as far as being in 1.5 of Kubes and Mario. Again, I'm not pressing judgement on Mario. I just expressed frustration in having picks that seem to need to marinate compared to actually having a guy like DeMeco that steps in and plays. I sometimes wonder why we should not see that and expect the same more often. There always seems to be a rush to blame coaching and teammates for some guys...Carr and others...but not expect more out of the guys. Where I see how bad coaching has been and how talent poor we have been, it still doesn't want me to have a guy step up any less instead of waiting. But agreed that we have no choice at this time. But that is just from a fans perspective and having that Groundhog Day feeling at times.

Wolf
11-06-2007, 11:25 PM
agreed HF .. but who knows, maybe mario and the other front 3 are the reason demeco can get free, but it is the ying and yang.. if our secondary could be stronger, it would give the DL a second or two more ... we'd look alot better with more hurries and knock downs and possibly more sacks

ubecool454
11-06-2007, 11:26 PM
:shades: :shades: So I was looking around to compare Mario to some of this years high round pick rookies and some notable DE's that are big names. This is what I came up with:

Jamal Anderson: Has not even played yet. He was picked 8th.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=0656

Gaines Adams drafted 4th overall: 1.5 sacks 17 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=8258

Dwight Freeney, 3.5 sacks, 20 Tackles, 4 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5897

Robert Mathis 4.0 sacks, 20 tackles, 1 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6474

Michael Strahan 4.0 sacks, 26 tackles 2 PD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=2579

Julius Peppers 1.5 sacks, 26 tackles, 4 PD 2 FF
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5888

Mario Williams 4.0 sacks, 23 tackles 1 PD, 1 TD
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=7750

So I guess my question is, when comparing Mario to the rest of the stud DE's and high round draft picks, are we expecting to much?

If you thought Mario was a bust, then you must not know football. This guy is supposed to be a rookie this year. It does take awhile for guys to learn all the tricks of the trade. I have learned a few things about Texans football fans....they aren't loyal, they are unrealistic in their expectations, and they don't show up on time and they leave to early. I like Mario....he is not lucky like Peppers and Osimenyura was ...I mean having Strahan there for the NY football giants and Mike Rucker in Carolina to help peppers..who did mario have? Mario had some disgruntled silly fans that wanted Vince to throw the ball to our stud WR andre Johnson. I would rather mario make a QB rush a pass than get a sack....with rushed passes come interceptions. I really think QB sack statistics are overated.

ubecool454
11-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Sure Mario has been a disappointment so far, but he's still very young and time, lots & lots of it, is on his side and ours.
But one has to wonder that if Mario would have ended up with the coachs in oh, I dunno, lets say the the New England Patriots, what would those coachs and that team have done with Mario by this point in time ?

nunusguy he is only a dissappointment to the ignorant fans that don't understand what it takes to succeed at this game. Only someone that doesn't understand the game is calling this guy a dissappointment.

Runner
11-06-2007, 11:37 PM
Too early to know if Mario is a bust or not. To be fair, why not wait until around year five, then decide.
:)

Well, the current standard is three years to decide - that is why I can't wait until next year to decide if DeMeco is any good or if he is just lucky so far. :sarcasm:

ubecool454
11-06-2007, 11:39 PM
The guy will never live down the hype and controversy of him being picked # 1 . In some people's eyes he will be a bust no matter what .

you are right about that..lets just call those people stevie wonders.

Marcus
11-06-2007, 11:40 PM
Like the saying goes, it is hard to sore like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

TC, just curious and sorta on the same subject line with coaching. the Ravens look like they are in for one long season and a new coaching regime could be taking over. Whom out there would you like to see take over as the Texans "D" coordinator, line coach and secondary coach?

So far I think it is unanimous that Richard Smith needs to go, as does Jon Hoke; but do you think Franklin and Bush needs to go as well?

Well not to be a smartass singing the same old Marcus tune . . .

. . . but if they got nothing but turkeys, why fire the coaching, especially John Hoke, who is a very good secondary coach?

Oh, I know, a "good" coach should be able to take untalented players, like Faggins, and get them to play well.:crazy:

Coaches can't make silk purses out of sows ears. Give John Hoke the tools, and he'll get the job done.

Runner
11-06-2007, 11:46 PM
nunusguy he is only a dissappointment to the ignorant fans that don't understand what it takes to succeed at this game. Only someone that doesn't understand the game is calling this guy a dissappointment.

you are right about that..lets just call those people stevie wonders.


Your ad hominem attacks don't do much to demonstrate your knowledge of football either. Or is "people who perceive things differently or come to different conclusions than me are ignorant" the best argument you have?

Try attacking the opinion, not the debater.

Marcus
11-06-2007, 11:52 PM
I just expressed frustration in having picks that seem to need to marinate compared to actually having a guy like DeMeco that steps in and plays.

32 teams passed on DeMeco Ryans. I guaran-fricken-tee you that if anyone would have known beforehand what kind of player Ryans would have turned out to be, he would have been the 5th player taken overall, and the 1st linebacker taken.

So you just never know. The draft fanatics can't stand to hear it, but draft day is a crap shoot.

ubecool454
11-06-2007, 11:54 PM
Your ad hominem attacks don't do much to demonstrate your knowledge of football either. Or is "people who perceive things differently or come to different conclusions than me are ignorant" the best argument you have?

Try attacking the opinion, not the debater.

runner you are right..ignorant opinion.:fans:

Runner
11-07-2007, 12:01 AM
runner you are right..ignorant opinion.

Well, I kind of meant to attack the opinion with facts and logic, but I guess this is the level it will be remain.

ubecool454
11-07-2007, 12:03 AM
32 teams passed on DeMeco Ryans. I guaran-fricken-tee you that if anyone would have known beforehand what kind of player Ryans would have turned out to be, he would have been the 5th player taken overall, and the 1st linebacker taken.

So you just never know. The draft fanatics can't stand to hear it, but draft day is a crap shoot.

I wasn't two much surprised by Demeco Ryans early success because of watching so many Alabama games. But the draft is still a crap shoot, and what made Demeco "fall" to the second round is the fact that AJ Hawk and a few other good linebackers were in that draft.

Leahmic223
11-07-2007, 12:05 AM
Well, I kind of meant to attack the opinion with facts and logic, but I guess this is the level it will be remain.

What facts and logic?

All you said was No, it is an indictment of the team's choice. People hold it against the team.

Mario is an average lineman making best player-on-the-team money. The team made a mistake.

Mario took what was offered. Good for him.

The only gray area is this: could Mario do something different - attitude, practice habits, study, whatever - to make himself better? If he isn't doing all he can, then shame on him for not doing everything he can to earn that exorbitant paycheck.

and

Well, the current standard is three years to decide - that is why I can't wait until next year to decide if DeMeco is any good or if he is just lucky so far.

Where are the facts?

Specnatz
11-07-2007, 12:36 AM
Well not to be a smartass singing the same old Marcus tune . . .

. . . but if they got nothing but turkeys, why fire the coaching, especially John Hoke, who is a very good secondary coach?

Oh, I know, a "good" coach should be able to take untalented players, like Faggins, and get them to play well.:crazy:

Coaches can't make silk purses out of sows ears. Give John Hoke the tools, and he'll get the job done.

I think that a better coach would know he has turkeys on the team and try and design schemes that are not so obvious Stevie Wonder could read what the defese is doing.

Mix up the blitz packages ..... Use Safety Blitzes, Corner Blitzes and send a LB on a delayed blitz. Mix up the secondary (kinda hard now with D-Rob gone) try and disguise it.

It is the same with an offense if you know 90% of the time when it is going to be a run, how successful do you think the offense will be? Not to much to ask out of the defense is it?

HJam72
11-07-2007, 01:35 AM
After careful study of this team, I'm convinced that we need to blitz the D-linemen more often. :jk:

Runner
11-07-2007, 06:45 AM
What facts and logic?


Where are the facts?

The first was in response to people not understanding why everyone holds it against Mario that he was the #1 pick. The fact is, not eveyone does.

The second one was a joke about the three year period of judgement, which is just an arbitrary figure seemingly applied mainly to Mario to explain his under-performance for a first pick of the draft without having to admit he is underperforming. It is procrastinating the admission that the Texans may have made a mistake. I know you are a three year guy, so you may not have seen the humor about having to wait three years to pass "final judgement" on Demeco. Too inconsistent.

ubecool454
11-07-2007, 07:34 AM
I think that a better coach would know he has turkeys on the team and try and design schemes that are not so obvious Stevie Wonder could read what the defese is doing.

Mix up the blitz packages ..... Use Safety Blitzes, Corner Blitzes and send a LB on a delayed blitz. Mix up the secondary (kinda hard now with D-Rob gone) try and disguise it.

It is the same with an offense if you know 90% of the time when it is going to be a run, how successful do you think the offense will be? Not to much to ask out of the defense is it?

Safety blitz?? Which one can get there?

TEXANRED
11-07-2007, 07:42 AM
:shades: :shades:

If you thought Mario was a bust, then you must not know football. This guy is supposed to be a rookie this year.

Well I am kinda new to the game, I just recently learned how to spell football. For the longest time I spelled it Futball. Silly me.

The problem with Mario is that he is Sean Jones without his William Fuller. Or even on the more extreme, he is Sean Jones without his Reggie White.

Either way you look at it every great DE has another good DE behind him.

dalemurphy
11-07-2007, 08:14 AM
No, it is an indictment of the team's choice. People hold it against the team.

Mario is an average lineman making best player-on-the-team money. The team made a mistake.

Mario took what was offered. Good for him.

The only gray area is this: could Mario do something different - attitude, practice habits, study, whatever - to make himself better? If he isn't doing all he can, then shame on him for not doing everything he can to earn that exorbitant paycheck.


Well, for you people that can't deal with it, just look at it this way:

We drafted Demeco Ryans, Eric Winston, Owen Daniels, and Mario Williams, along with Charles Spencer in 2006... just don't worry so much about the order!

Lucky
11-07-2007, 09:48 AM
Mario is an average lineman making best player-on-the-team money. The team made a mistake.
I think the point you are missing is that no player from that draft has shown to be worthy of #1 pick money. "The team made a mistake" implies that there was a correct answer to the question, "Who should the Texans take with the #1 pick?". 1 & 1/2 seasons later, that answer still isn't apparent. The "mistake" was finishing with the worst record in the NFL.

There is a blessing and a curse to having a top pick in the draft. Yes, you get to select a player with potential. But, you have to pay that player as if he has already produced. We're becoming familiar with the curse part of the equation.

Fox
11-07-2007, 09:56 AM
I think the point you are missing is that no player from that draft has shown to be worthy of #1 pick money. "The team made a mistake" implies that there was a correct answer to the question, "Who should the Texans take with the #1 pick?". 1 & 1/2 seasons later, that answer still isn't apparent. The "mistake" was finishing with the worst record in the NFL.

There is a blessing and a curse to having a top pick in the draft. Yes, you get to select a player with potential. But, you have to pay that player as if he has already produced. We're becoming familiar with the curse part of the equation.


I think that's a logical point and I agree with that, but if you wanted the idealistic response it would be that the correct answer to the question would've been to cash out and trade out of the top 3. Don't draft any of 'em. We would've gotten murdered even worse by the nat'l media by passing up all three, but I imagine we could've picked up a pretty sweet trade out option in retrospect when you remember all the hype that the top 3 had generated.

Lucky
11-07-2007, 10:01 AM
...but I imagine we could've picked up a pretty sweet trade out option in retrospect when you remember all the hype that the top 3 had generated.
Well, you have to imagine that, because it is an imaginary scenario. The truth is, there was no pot o' gold at the end of the 1st pick rainbow. The hype was just that. The so called elite prospects had questions marks all over them. And they still do.

marks01234
11-07-2007, 12:23 PM
I think the point you are missing is that no player from that draft has shown to be worthy of #1 pick money. "The team made a mistake" implies that there was a correct answer to the question, "Who should the Texans take with the #1 pick?". 1 & 1/2 seasons later, that answer still isn't apparent. The "mistake" was finishing with the worst record in the NFL.

There is a blessing and a curse to having a top pick in the draft. Yes, you get to select a player with potential. But, you have to pay that player as if he has already produced. We're becoming familiar with the curse part of the equation.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you did it over again - you might take D'Brick who has looked pretty good and is the only top ten pick besides Whitner, Sims and Hawk who has at least lived up to his billing thus far.

And for those of you who believe Freeney is so amazing - you are clearly not watching the games I see. He is a fanastic pass rusher who can be a solid run stopper. But isn't both at the same time and one often comes at the expense of the other (which is a big reason why his sack numbers have been low the past two years). Freeney also has the benefit of playing with a better overall defensive line and defensive unit as a whole. Finally, he has the luxury of an offense that gets up by multiple TD's each week, forcing the opposing O into obvious every-down passing situations.

I'm not saying I would take Mario over Freeney for one game but the difference isn't as much as you guys make it out to be. Same goes for Peppers who is suddenly quite average when he is paired with other average DLs.

eriadoc
11-07-2007, 12:28 PM
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you did it over again - you might take D'Brick who has looked pretty good and is the only top ten pick besides Whitner, Sims and Hawk who has at least lived up to his billing thus far.

Or if I did it the first time. There were a few advocates of taking Ferguson no matter what. Trade back if possible, if not, take him anyway. Of course, they were castigated for suggesting such a stupid thing, while draft value charts were thrown at them, with the wisdom of #1 overall value vs. what Ferguson would be worth, blah blah blah.

No, I'm not bitter.

BigBull17
11-07-2007, 12:28 PM
I have a theory on Freeney, I believe Carr is the reason why his numbers are so inflated. 02-05 Freeney would sack Carr 5-6 times a year.

06 and Kubiak takes the ball out of Carr's hands and runs the ball more and gets more production out of the Oline, he finishes the year with 5.5 sacks.

Look at this year, no Carr, only 3.5 sacks.

And if you think that is crazy Brandon, I cant think of his last name, from the Titans, sacked Carr twice a game. Thats four sacks a year just by playing against David Carr.

Just a theory. But if it can be proven then Freeney needs to hand over some of that bonus money to Carr.

You may be on to something. It would be intreesting to see how many times Freeney has sacked Carr, (hint, hint stat gurus...)

eriadoc
11-07-2007, 12:37 PM
Freeney sacks vs. Houston

2002 - 2
2003 - 1
2004 - 3
2005 - 2
2006 - 0

It's possible that Carr wasn't the target of all those sacks, as I didn't look up who was quarterbacking each game. Banks filled in at QB some in 2003, I know, but I think they're all on DC.

EDIT to add - Mathis' sacks vs. Houston:

2003 - 0
2004 - 4
2005 - 1
2006 - 2

Just as important.

Leahmic223
11-07-2007, 12:42 PM
The first was in response to people not understanding why everyone holds it against Mario that he was the #1 pick. The fact is, not eveyone does.

The second one was a joke about the three year period of judgement, which is just an arbitrary figure seemingly applied mainly to Mario to explain his under-performance for a first pick of the draft without having to admit he is underperforming. It is procrastinating the admission that the Texans may have made a mistake. I know you are a three year guy, so you may not have seen the humor about having to wait three years to pass "final judgement" on Demeco. Too inconsistent.


The reason you wait 3 years to judge a draft because some guys do not improve. Some guys don't get better after their rookie season and stay consistent being a average player. It is like Colston's year, he has been playing better yes but it wasn't like last season. If he stays consistent with how he's playing he'll be just a above-average WR. Some guys imrpove and some dont, and some guys just seem to play worse as the years go on (Boulware?) that is why you wait 3 years.

That's why I am not going to say whether they made a mistake. Even if they did, the draft is a crap shoot and we came out of that draft with some possibly great players.

Mr teX
11-07-2007, 12:52 PM
Well I am kinda new to the game, I just recently learned how to spell football. For the longest time I spelled it Futball. Silly me.

The problem with Mario is that he is Sean Jones without his William Fuller. Or even on the more extreme, he is Sean Jones without his Reggie White.
Either way you look at it every great DE has another good DE behind him.

QFT.

SOme of Freeney's success can be attributed to Mathis & vice versa. If i'm not mistaken, i think mathis is thought of as overall the better DE.

thunderkyss
11-07-2007, 12:57 PM
Anyone catch James Harrisons performance for the Steelers last night?

9 Tackles
3 1/2 sacks
6 Qb Hurries
1 Int
2 forced fumbles
1 fumble recovery

Just freakin Awesome!

It would be freakin Awesome if we would blitz once out of every three downs played.

But we don't.

We'd have many more sacks as a team....... we'd probably give up more passing yards as well, but that's a different story.


Let me first say that I am NOT saying that Mario Williams is a bust. He has been dissapointing so far for being a #1 overall pick. But he has plenty of time to improve. But on the players you mentioned, you are picking and choosing.

Michael Strahan- Secound round pick. He wasn't supposed to come in and dominate right away. He got better as his career came along. But he wasn't even a first round pick.

Julius Peppers- Yeah he has 1.5 sacks this year. But look at his first 5 years in the league.

2002-12 sacks
2003- 7 sacks
2004-11 sacks
2005-10 Sacks
2006- 13 sacks

Dwight Freeny

2002- 13 Sacks
2003- 16 sacks
2004- 11 sacks
2005- 13 sacks

My point is that we don't know if Mario is a bust yet, But to me he hasn't lived up to his potential. He can improve just like Michael strahan did. He is still young, but he has to have the drive and not just rely on talent alone.

The thing is that people talk about how great Strahan, Peppers, and Taylor are now. Forget where they were drafted, they are "Great Defensive Ends" All three will probably go into the Hall of fame.

Yet they aren't having great years..... is that because they've become sub-par football players?? Or is it because their teams have different defensive philosophies?? Different personnel?? Are OTs getting better in this league??

I remember last year, Freeney was a liability against the run, so he wasn't even on the field for two out of three plays. That's why he couldn't get around Salaam in either of our match-ups against the Colts in '06.

My point.. read Texan's Chick post.

threetoedpete
11-07-2007, 02:16 PM
Well, you have to imagine that, because it is an imaginary scenario. The truth is, there was no pot o' gold at the end of the 1st pick rainbow. The hype was just that. The so called elite prospects had questions marks all over them. And they still do.

Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.

eriadoc
11-07-2007, 02:26 PM
Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.

Kubiak pointed to that play and made a point of saying that it was the safety's play, not Mario's play, but he ran it down anyway. I don't think the argument in bold holds much water.

HoustonFrog
11-07-2007, 02:29 PM
32 teams passed on DeMeco Ryans. I guaran-fricken-tee you that if anyone would have known beforehand what kind of player Ryans would have turned out to be, he would have been the 5th player taken overall, and the 1st linebacker taken.

So you just never know. The draft fanatics can't stand to hear it, but draft day is a crap shoot.

I hear ya. I've always been one that thinks draftniks make the draft too hard. I'm not starting a draft thread and we have had this convo on the board before, but I've always thought a guy like DeMeco would be an easy pick...leader, works his tail off, makes plays despite speed/size, intelligent. But teams always go combine and stats. There is a reason why guys like Zach Thomas and others make it despite their combine type numbers and it has alot to do with instinct and heart. That comment has nothing to do with Mario but I think we are in a day and age of "potential" and hitting home runs instead of getting a guy who makes plays. My whole point above is that I would rather EXPECT people to be DeMeco than to take 3 years and have patience.

HOU-TEX
11-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Well all I know about it is that I watched the guy chase down a Raider WR on an end around. Now on the one hand you could say that Mario is a bust because he was out of poition and wasn't deep enough to make the TFL. On the other hand, I don't know too many 299 pound guys who can run with a Raider WR. From my tree the only thing the guy needs is some more experence. And the only thing the board needs concerning the guy is a six pack of patience. Put this foot here, put that foot there.

Kubiak pointed to that play and made a point of saying that it was the safety's play, not Mario's play, but he ran it down anyway. I don't think the argument in bold holds much water.

Mario might have pushed him further outside, but he did not make the tackle. He dove and missed the runners legs and Von Hutchins tackled him out of bounds. Kubiak did say it was the Safety's play. Mario did well by forcing him further outside for safety cleanup. :d:

1-10-OAK 48 (3:57) 15-J.Higgins left end to HOU 44 for 8 yards (34-V.Hutchins).

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29322&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG9

Fox
11-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Well, you have to imagine that, because it is an imaginary scenario. The truth is, there was no pot o' gold at the end of the 1st pick rainbow. The hype was just that. The so called elite prospects had questions marks all over them. And they still do.

Yea, since it didn't happen I obviously do have to imagine it, but I think it's foolhardy to think we couldn't have found any trade partners that would've given us relatively fair compensation.

Insideop
11-07-2007, 04:44 PM
Mario might have pushed him further outside, but he did not make the tackle. He dove and missed the runners legs and Von Hutchins tackled him out of bounds. Kubiak did say it was the Safety's play. Mario did well by forcing him further outside for safety cleanup. :d:



http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29322&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2007&week=REG9

I think this is one of those plays that never show up on the stat line, but tell alot about a players ability and heart. The Coaches and Players see it. And sometimes, some of the fans do too! JMHO!

Lucky
11-07-2007, 04:55 PM
...but I think it's foolhardy to think we couldn't have found any trade partners that would've given us relatively fair compensation.
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.

Texan_Bill
11-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.

I think Lucky is spot-on. Thats pretty much what I remember. Not to mention that its been discussed ad naseum over many, many other threads spread out over the last year and a half...

Mr teX
11-07-2007, 05:06 PM
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.

Nope, it just boils down to the money factor. Teams don't want the #1 overall draft pick in any draft not only b/c it means you have to suck more than anyone else the prior year, but also b/c 1st overall picks contracts are getting too ridiculous. to trade up to get a top 3 pick means you have to have at least 30 million on reserve for that 1 player, Hence trading down from 1 to 3, or even 4 or 5 only works if you're already picking at the top b/c those guys already KNOW they're gonna be dropping at least 25 million. 5 million seems like nothing if your already dropping 20+ for a guy, but that's why those guys (owners) are rich & we aren't.

HOU-TEX
11-07-2007, 05:06 PM
I think this is one of those plays that never show up on the stat line, but tell alot about a players ability and heart. The Coaches and Players see it. And sometimes, some of the fans do too! JMHO!

True. I've chosen to regulate my criticism of Mario and the Dline until we have a decent secondary. Some blame the Dline for not putting pressure on the QB, which is fine, but a majority of the time the opposing QB is getting rid of the ball very quickly. If the DBs can hold their coverage longer than 2 seconds it'll give the Dline a better chance of getting to the QB. I'm not saying the Dline is not to blame, but if the DBs aren't doing their job the Dline can't do theirs.

Now that Dunta is gone, they're going to have to step up their game bigtime. Especially our DBs.

My .02

:fans:

GlassHalfFull
11-07-2007, 05:11 PM
[/B]

Nope, it just boils down to the money factor. Teams don't want the #1 overall draft pick in any draft not only b/c it means you have to suck more than anyone else the prior year, but also b/c 1st overall picks contracts are getting too ridiculous. to trade up to get a top 3 pick means you have to have at least 30 million on reserve for that 1 player, Hence trading down from 1 to 3, or even 4 or 5 only works if you're already picking at the top b/c those guys already KNOW they're gonna be dropping at least 25 million. 5 million seems like nothing if your already dropping 20+ for a guy, but that's why those guys (owners) are rich & we aren't.

Yep, just ask the Raiders.

Odogg
11-07-2007, 05:13 PM
True. I've chosen to regulate my criticism of Mario and the Dline until we have a decent secondary. Some blame the Dline for not putting pressure on the QB, which is fine, but a majority of the time the opposing QB is getting rid of the ball very quickly. If the DBs can hold their coverage longer than 2 seconds it'll give the Dline a better chance of getting to the QB. I'm not saying the Dline is not to blame, but if the DBs aren't doing their job the Dline can't do theirs.

Now that Dunta is gone, they're going to have to step up their game bigtime. Especially our DBs.

My .02

:fans:

Sounds eerily familiar to the "David Carr" evaluation. As soon as we get an O-Line, then I can actually evaluate that scrub. If you want to watch how a D-Line should perform, pop in a Titans tape. MW is a physical beast with no instincts or aggressiveness. He should be blowing OT's UP Man to Man, period. He IS ON THE ROAD TO BUSTVILLE or GOOD ATHLETE/AVERAGE FOOTBALL PLAYER.

HOU-TEX
11-07-2007, 06:04 PM
Sounds eerily familiar to the "David Carr" evaluation. As soon as we get an O-Line, then I can actually evaluate that scrub. If you want to watch how a D-Line should perform, pop in a Titans tape. MW is a physical beast with no instincts or aggressiveness. He should be blowing OT's UP Man to Man, period. He IS ON THE ROAD TO BUSTVILLE or GOOD ATHLETE/AVERAGE FOOTBALL PLAYER.

Hey, whatever tugs your twig.

I'll continue to evaluate the team as a whole and form my own opinions. To each their own. :cool:

Runner
11-07-2007, 06:21 PM
I think the point you are missing is that no player from that draft has shown to be worthy of #1 pick money. "The team made a mistake" implies that there was a correct answer to the question, "Who should the Texans take with the #1 pick?". 1 & 1/2 seasons later, that answer still isn't apparent. The "mistake" was finishing with the worst record in the NFL.


I don't think any player is worth the #1 money they are getting, so I'm usually a trade down guy. Problem is, there is no one to trade with.

In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.

A guy I know who has a lot of good football knowledge was adamant that D'Brickashaw was the right pick from the start. I spoke to him recently and his only other comment was, "Can you picture Andre Johnson and Reggie Bush in the same offense?" He thought they would spread the field pretty well if they used Reggie all over the place and not as a dedicated running back. I know that isn't popular here because Reggie doesn't have a Bull on the side of his helmet, but he would probably be better for the team too.

marks01234
11-07-2007, 06:59 PM
I don't think any player is worth the #1 money they are getting, so I'm usually a trade down guy. Problem is, there is no one to trade with.

In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.

A guy I know who has a lot of good football knowledge was adamant that D'Brickashaw was the right pick from the start. I spoke to him recently and his only other comment was, "Can you picture Andre Johnson and Reggie Bush in the same offense?" He thought they would spread the field pretty well if they used Reggie all over the place and not as a dedicated running back. I know that isn't popular here because Reggie doesn't have a Bull on the side of his helmet, but he would probably be better for the team too.


At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.

I can't figure out why we promised Mario so much money. We have the leverge - everybody thought we were picking Bush. Why couldn't get talk Mario's agent down - threatening to select Bush.

Runner
11-07-2007, 07:28 PM
At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.


Good point. I was considering the most popular candidates at the time - Bush, Mario, D'Brickashaw...

Knowing what we know now (DeMeco in the 2nd), Hawk is kind of intriguing to think about. Build the defense around great linebackers; we already had a big investment in d-line without Mario.

Texans_Chick
11-07-2007, 11:53 PM
Foolhardy or not, I've never seen a credible (or incredible) report that suggested the Texans were offered anything for the #1 pick. On draft day, I did see something on either ESPN or NFL Network regarding an offer by the Jets to move up for the Saints pick at #2 to select Bush. The offer was the Jets pick at #4 plus a 4th round selection. There was another rumor that had Casserly calling the Jets to gauge their interest in moving from #4 to #1. Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum responded, "So what else will you give me for it?"

Fact is, the NFL was less enamored with the prospects in the '06 draft than were the fans and draftniks.

The key problems are two things:

1. The rookie salaries for top of the draft picks is ridiculous. Few players can be "worth" that money. There are some who claim it is the "curse of the first pick."

2. The 2006 draft made this even more difficult because the draft was very deep at the top of the draft. That even if you didn't get #1-3, you could still get a solid guy to contribute to your team.

Though Reggie Bush was the popular consensus #1 pick, picking him really wasn't a no brainer. Because of he style of play, the way he was used at USC, and his legs. He's pals with LT, but he isn't LT.

Leinart goes #1 in 2005, but because he stayed for his senior year, he goes #10.

The draft is a crap shoot. Players get hurt.

Overall, I see Mario as a solid player, but not worth first pick money. Few players are. Maybe DeMeco is, but I really don't care whether DeMeco gets the money or Mario does at this point. Ain't my money. Imagine DeMeco being picked first and Mario being picked #33 if it makes you feel any better evaluating their performances.

dtran04
11-08-2007, 12:19 AM
When a guy like Vernon Davis is the highest paid TE ever, you know theres a huge problem in the rookie pay scale.

Runner
11-08-2007, 07:02 AM
Ain't my money. Imagine DeMeco being picked first and Mario being picked #33 if it makes you feel any better evaluating their performances.

Not really. Taking the great pick they made in with Demeco and figuring in Mario makes it about average for the first two rounds. Average in the long haul tranlsates to 8-8. Not good enough, especially since they'll have to pay Demeco the big money at some point while Mario is still rolling on that big contract.

Upon further consideration, 8-8 is a step up...:hmmm:

Lucky
11-08-2007, 09:20 AM
In hindsight who should they have picked? D'Brickashaw. The o-line isn't good - at least he would have made a positive impact for the money.
Ferguson has allowed 15 sacks in 25 games as a pro. You're kidding yourself if you believe he wouldn't hear his name associated with the word "bust" had he given a similar performance here.

I'm not saying that D'Brickashaw doesn't have potential and won't become a good pro, maybe even great. Before the draft, I suggested that both Ferguson and Williams may very well be considered the best of their draft class after 5 seasons. I still believe that. But, D'Brickashaw has yet to show he's worthy of the #1 overall pick. Neither has Williams. Or Young. Or Bush. And so on...and so on...

Mr teX
11-08-2007, 09:38 AM
At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.

I can't figure out why we promised Mario so much money. We have the leverge - everybody thought we were picking Bush. Why couldn't get talk Mario's agent down - threatening to select Bush.

3 reasons:

1) b/c mario was already slated to go top 3 anyway so money wise there wasn't going to be much of a difference as far as negotiating goes, i.e. Mario 26.4 million guaranteed & VY 25.7 million.

2) The top 5 set the roof as far as the other 31 1st rounders go & it starts with the #1 overall. From then on, you see guys not signing until the guy ahead of them signs which believe it or not agents use this as leverage for their clients.

3) Agents just aren't that dumb (save for Ricky Williams' agent in '99), think about how disaterous it'd be for your firm, if someone who was drafted under your client signed for more guranteed money. Their job is to push the envelope in contract negotiations that's why the scott boras' & drew rosenhouses' are highly sought after guys.

marks01234
11-08-2007, 12:22 PM
3 reasons:

1) b/c mario was already slated to go top 3 anyway so money wise there wasn't going to be much of a difference as far as negotiating goes, i.e. Mario 26.4 million guaranteed & VY 25.7 million.

2) The top 5 set the roof as far as the other 31 1st rounders go & it starts with the #1 overall. From then on, you see guys not signing until the guy ahead of them signs which believe it or not agents use this as leverage for their clients.

3) Agents just aren't that dumb (save for Ricky Williams' agent in '99), think about how disaterous it'd be for your firm, if someone who was drafted under your client signed for more guranteed money. Their job is to push the envelope in contract negotiations that's why the scott boras' & drew rosenhouses' are highly sought after guys.

Good points.

badboy
11-08-2007, 04:51 PM
At this point, Reggie Bush just might have cracked my top twenty of guys I would have selected. Joseph Addai and Santino Holmes would have helped our O more.

I can't figure out why we promised Mario so much money. We have the leverge - everybody thought we were picking Bush. Why couldn't get talk Mario's agent down - threatening to select Bush.We did not give his agent the time to negotiate. We offered an amount way over where the agent thought Mario would go. Remember, he thought the Texans were using Mario to get Bush in the fold. That had to be the easiest cut any agent every got. He just screamed "Deal" and fainted.

infantrycak
11-08-2007, 05:07 PM
We did not give his agent the time to negotiate. We offered an amount way over where the agent thought Mario would go. Remember, he thought the Texans were using Mario to get Bush in the fold. That had to be the easiest cut any agent every got. He just screamed "Deal" and fainted.

Don't know where that comes from. Mario got 10% more than the year before which was right at the cap increase amount so pretty standard. Bush received more and VY received more than either. By the way, Mario got zero signing bonus so the negotiations weren't quite as ordinary as you make out. He received a roster bonus of about $3 mil. That's a far cry from the signing bonus most guys receive at the top.

Runner
11-08-2007, 06:52 PM
Ferguson has allowed 15 sacks in 25 games as a pro. You're kidding yourself if you believe he wouldn't hear his name associated with the word "bust" had he given a similar performance here.


I am in the "no one is worth the first pick money" camp. That being said, they had to pick somebody.

Ferguson is more "better" than than the other options they have at tackle than Mario is "better" than other options they have at end.

And no doubt we'd hear bust about him There is always someone that says that about almost everyone.

Napa Auto Parts
11-08-2007, 11:04 PM
I am in the "no one is worth the first pick money" camp. That being said, they had to pick somebody.



They had to pick somebody that being said we could of traded down to 4 and still got mario for cheaper and picked up and extrapick. with what Mickey Loomis said last year in a piece for ESPN the saints had their Eye on AJ hawk the whole time.