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Texanfan4ever
10-22-2007, 01:04 PM
With all these posts about fans, let me give ya'll this.

The two seats next to us always have different people in them. The seat right next to me had a lady from another country, and her boyfriend. The boyfriend was up getting drinks or whatever, but was not there. Everyone stood for the Star Spangled Banner except this woman that was sitting next to us.

Now, there was nothing wrong with her, she was not handicapped, none of those excuses, she spoke English, I had already heard her talking.

I am sorry, but I for one am sick of people in our country at the very least not being polite. I leaned down and told her that in America you stand for the Star Spangled Banner. She folded her arms and turned her head away from me, never saying a word.

My mother and I were livid. I had to change seats with my mother because it made me sick.

She left about 10 minutes after that, and I was glad.

It still gets me riled up just thinking of her face as she sat there.

Was I right or wrong?

Vinny
10-22-2007, 01:05 PM
I have a handicap but you can't see it by looking at me....so you don't know. and my Mother is Japanese so I'm not your typical "white guy from America" so I don't know what looking like she is from another country means. I stood for the Anthem fwiw though.

Porky
10-22-2007, 01:07 PM
With all these posts about fans, let me give ya'll this.

The two seats next to us always have different people in them. The seat right next to me had a lady from another country, and her boyfriend. The boyfriend was up getting drinks or whatever, but was not there. Everyone stood for the Star Spangled Banner except this woman that was sitting next to us.

Now, there was nothing wrong with her, she was not handicapped, none of those excuses, she spoke English, I had already heard her talking.

I am sorry, but I for one am sick of people in our country at the very least not being polite. I leaned down and told her that in America you stand for the Star Spangled Banner. She folded her arms and turned her head away from me, never saying a word.

My mother and I were livid. I had to change seats with my mother because it made me sick.

She left about 10 minutes after that, and I was glad.

It still gets me riled up just thinking of her face as she sat there.

Was I right or wrong?


In my view, 100% right. When in Rome, do as the Romans. If I went to another Country, I would respect their traditions if out at an event, especially when it comes to something like that. If she can't stand and salute the flag, then go back to wherever you came from, and take your no good boyfriend with you. :texflag:

Ckw
10-22-2007, 01:09 PM
100% right. Too many people are nothing but leaches in this country. They come here and suck the blood (money) right out of this country and then don't show us any respect. Personally, I think it's bull crap and it's what is wrong with the world today. America will fall some day and like Rome will crumble from within. All this crap of keeping one's diversity and a refusal to become a part of American society (while still holding on to one's own traditions) is doing nothing but divide us.

real
10-22-2007, 01:13 PM
Ummm...yeah...you were right...

When you are at an event in America and the Star Spangled Banner is played you need to stand and remove your cap...

Hookem Horns
10-22-2007, 01:16 PM
Was I right or wrong?

Wrong. This country is based on freedom and people should not be pressured to do anything (as long as the law isn't being broken) because when we do that we are not respecting the freedom of others. You never know why people do things. It may not always be that they are just being disrespectful. Some people feel (due to religious convictions) that saluting the flag, etc is a form of idolatry or worship of the state. If their concience bothers them to stand for the flag than that is their right. However, if that is the case I personally think it would be wise of them not to draw attention to themselves and wait until after the ceremony before taking their seat.

texanskan
10-22-2007, 01:18 PM
100% right. Too many people are nothing but leaches in this country. They come here and suck the blood (money) right out of this country and then don't show us any respect. Personally, I think it's bull crap and it's what is wrong with the world today. America will fall some day and like Rome will crumble from within. All this crap of keeping one's diversity and a refusal to become a part of American society (while still holding on to one's own traditions) is doing nothing but divide us.

Americans bring it on themselves (the respect issue) and as far as folks being "leaches" I'm guessing your american indian since you made that statement.

As far as the woman not standing that is disrespectfull but it's not like she was talking during it or mocking the star spangled banner so I would be pissed if someone got in my face and told me what to do.

NitroGSXR
10-22-2007, 01:18 PM
With all these posts about fans, let me give ya'll this.

The two seats next to us always have different people in them. The seat right next to me had a lady from another country, and her boyfriend. The boyfriend was up getting drinks or whatever, but was not there. Everyone stood for the Star Spangled Banner except this woman that was sitting next to us.

Now, there was nothing wrong with her, she was not handicapped, none of those excuses, she spoke English, I had already heard her talking.

I am sorry, but I for one am sick of people in our country at the very least not being polite. I leaned down and told her that in America you stand for the Star Spangled Banner. She folded her arms and turned her head away from me, never saying a word.

My mother and I were livid. I had to change seats with my mother because it made me sick.

She left about 10 minutes after that, and I was glad.

It still gets me riled up just thinking of her face as she sat there.

Was I right or wrong?
I would have slapped you if you were the one to tell me when I need to or when not to stand up. It's generally common courtesy to stand during the star spangled banner. I get your patriotism but chill out a little bit. The lady wasn't as patriotic as you. No big deal. I know a lot of Americans who aren't real too happy with our country and probably don't want to represent by standing.

I've been scolded one time too many for not standing and my tolerance runs thin sometimes. Everytime that I didn't stand, I didn't know they were playing the anthem (I'm Deaf) but once I realize it, I get right on it and stand as well as remove my hat. My point though is that virtually everytime that I've been scolded, it was in a rude manner hence why I'll respond with a dirty look right back at the one who just scolded me. Americans can be extreme. They're either for or against. By your anger, I'll take it that you're also extremely for.

Hey, I'm just as American as anyone else and I want our country to be represented well. Are we worthy of that right now? Bush? Iraq? Afghanistian? A lot of people don't think so. Then again, this IS a country of free speech and if a lady doesn't want to stand, then so be it. It's her right.

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 01:26 PM
50% Right, alas, 50% wrong:

As a person who served this country in the military, the initial reaction is "love it or leave it!!"

As a person who now understands what my service meant to this country - and that was defending people's freedom(s) and the Constitution, I defended their right to 'not stand'.

It's a hard, bitter pill to swallow and I don't like, but that doesn't matter. At least I can say I am not a hypocrite..

real
10-22-2007, 01:28 PM
50% Right, alas, 50% wrong:

As a person who served this country in the military, the initial reaction is "love it or leave it!!"

As a person who now understands what my service meant to this country - and that was defending people's freedom(s) and the Constitution.

It's a hard, bitter pill to swallow and I don't like, but that doesn't matter. At least I can say I am not a hypocrite..

I agree with...

But I still think not standing is disrespectful...

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 01:29 PM
I agree with...

But I still think not standing is disrespectful...

Absolutely. Having been stationed in Germany, I showed respect to my host nation.

Specnatz
10-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Oh and I will add one other thing.

This is for the guys only, Take your damn hat off during the National Anthem. I freakin hate that crap.

Texanfan4ever
10-22-2007, 02:15 PM
I have a handicap but you can't see it by looking at me....so you don't know. and my Mother is Japanese so I'm not your typical "white guy from America" so I don't know what looking like she is from another country means. I stood for the Anthem fwiw though.

VInny, please know there was no prejudice here on my part, it wouldn't have mattered if it was a white guy or white woman. I would have felt the same way, probably worse. And yes it is a free country, but it isn't going to stay that way long if we don't stand for something. THe Star Spangled Banner would be a good start.

houstonhurricane
10-22-2007, 02:17 PM
I don't think there is a problem letting someone know politely about our customs; however, if she refused after that, no big deal...

Nitro, give the Iraq/Afghanistan angle a break - no need to get too political on this topic.

Texanfan4ever
10-22-2007, 02:21 PM
Americans bring it on themselves (the respect issue) and as far as folks being "leaches" I'm guessing your american indian since you made that statement.

As far as the woman not standing that is disrespectfull but it's not like she was talking during it or mocking the star spangled banner so I would be pissed if someone got in my face and told me what to do.


Now, I didn't exactly get in her face and tell her what to do. I just told her that in America, this is what we do. Nicely, I might add. I didn't yank her out of her seat or anything.

YellerLotYeller
10-22-2007, 02:36 PM
IMO what you did was right. If she was in another country in certain parts of the world, they would just stone her to death for not paying respect. So she got away with it with little consequece. How could you not stand for a country's national athem that gives you the right to be an ass?

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 02:50 PM
At least this lady wasn't Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf (aka Chris Jackson), who was born in Gulfport Mississippi, got rich in the NBA and refused to stand. That was more infuriating than this lady.

PapaL
10-22-2007, 03:21 PM
50% Right, alas, 50% wrong:

As a person who served this country in the military, the initial reaction is "love it or leave it!!"

As a person who now understands what my service meant to this country - and that was defending people's freedom(s) and the Constitution, I defended their right to 'not stand'.

It's a hard, bitter pill to swallow and I don't like, but that doesn't matter. At least I can say I am not a hypocrite..

As another vet; I concur 100%.

PapaL
10-22-2007, 03:29 PM
I think there are better things to complain about when the National Anthem is playing for instance talking while it's playing. If your smart enough to stand be smart enough to STFU.

FYI - The Star Spangled Banner is the name of the flag that Key wrote the lyrics of the National Anthem to and not the name of the song. The song is actually named "Defence of Fort McHenry". Just a little History of events that transpired in the otherwise not so great state of Maryland.

BeerTastesLikeVictory
10-22-2007, 03:37 PM
Thats whats great about this country. Everyone is given the right to be a *********.

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Thats whats great about this country. Everyone is given the right to be a *********.

Sad but true...

TD
10-22-2007, 04:10 PM
Thats whats great about this country. Everyone is given the right to be a *********.

Yep...and everyone else has the right to point it out to them.

That said, I'd withhold judgment unless I knew the whole story, (as has been pointed out there could be a variety of reasons for not standing), and in this instance there's really no way to get it.

infantrycak
10-22-2007, 04:18 PM
I have never considered it customary for anyone other than an American to stand.

Double Barrel
10-22-2007, 04:21 PM
Oh and I will add one other thing.

This is for the guys only, Take your damn hat off during the National Anthem. I freakin hate that crap.

Women don't have to take their hats off, too? :um:

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Women don't have to take their hats off, too? :um:

I've heard that it is permissable for women to not remove their hats, but in my family, Moms and my sis always did..

TEXANSTAILGATER
10-22-2007, 04:32 PM
Someone should send this thread to our buddy Clyde Drexler. Once at an event I gave him a sheety look as the anthem played. He had that crappy look on his face (seems to each time I see him) and wouldn't take his hat off even after I showed him mine in my hand. He just glared that "how dare you" look at me.

F' him, too.

YellerLotYeller
10-22-2007, 04:34 PM
Someone should send this thread to our buddy Clyde Drexler. Once at an event I gave him a sheety look as the anthem played. He had that crappy look on his face (seems to each time I see him) and wouldn't take his hat off even after I showed him mine in my hand. He just glared that "how dare you" look at me.

F' him, too.

His BBQ sucks too....

TD
10-22-2007, 04:34 PM
I have never considered it customary for anyone other than an American to stand.

Any hockey fans here? I'm curious what Canadians do during the Star Spangled Banner and what we do during Oh Canada.

Texan_Bill
10-22-2007, 04:37 PM
Any hockey fans here? I'm curious what Canadians do during the Star Spangled Banner and what we do during Oh Canada.

For the most part they respect the anthems both ways... Although I remember a Stanley Cup finals a couple/few of years ago that got pretty ugly with the Canadiens booing our Anthem at their house and then 'US Americans' booing the Canadien Anthem at the arena of whatever US city was in it...

PapaL
10-22-2007, 04:54 PM
For the most part they respect the anthems both ways... Although I remember a Stanley Cup finals a couple/few of years ago that got pretty ugly with the Canadiens booing our Anthem at their house and then 'US Americans' booing the Canadien Anthem at the arena of whatever US city was in it...

Land of equal opportunity; United States of America

TxDavid
10-22-2007, 06:23 PM
I pisses me off to no end when people don't stand or remove their caps during the national anthem. However, I believe in liberty and freedom, and just as I have a right to be pissed off about it, they have a right not to stand.


I do have a problem with another country's anthem being played here unless it is at an international event.

hookinreds
10-22-2007, 08:04 PM
There's plenty of American Id10ts that have little to no respect for the anthem. I love the way people look at me when I sing the words, not sure if it's my melodious voice, or the fact that someone actually might give a damn about signing it. Makes me proud that my 7 year old has been pulling off his cap at the games since before he could stand, and same goes for my 4 year old. The youngest doesn't know all the words yet, but he at least repeats the same "right" words over and over again as my 7 year old knocks off every last word. I'd be more embarrassed of what a foreigner would think of us.

Joe Texan
10-22-2007, 08:34 PM
I think you should have slapped her for not standing. I would of just started singing as loud as I could so She could hear it for the entire game. I believe she should be collected by immagration and sent back to her country.
You do not like our customs just get out, plain and simple. Where is the number to the minute men, I am signing up.

rickyb
10-22-2007, 08:41 PM
Everyone, just back up one moment.

Standing during an anthem is common courtesy. I stand during the CANADIAN anthem, for crying out loud, much less that of my own country. So, let's take this one step further: would I stand, say, during...who's an enemy...Iran? Would I stand during Iran's anthem? Nah..I don't like the Iran example, because they are not our enemy, per se. Let's just assume the terrorists had an anthem. Would I stand? Clearly not, because they offend my very being.

So, why did this lady in question not stand? Without believing that my way of thinking is the only way, I am prone to believe, in fact, that she is fundamentally offended by our country.

And if that is the case, please, by all means, leave anytime you want, miss. Or, please, do those of us who love this country, for all its warts, the ever-so-large favor of simply standing. Don't salute. Don't sing. Just stand. Maybe you could hum your own country's song softly to yourself.

I mean, as long as you are not put out.

Hagar
10-22-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm all for free speech but I think it should be both ways. If you want to say something to me that offends me, then I should have the right to beat the crap out of you. If you decide not to stand during the National Anthem as a right to free speech, then I should have the right to whap you upside your head. Alas, I'm in the minority on this opinion.

Also, I just wanted to say, I enjoyed the National Anthem this time. I'm one of those weird people who like to sing along during the National Anthem and if the singer gets to personal with "Their" rendition, it screws it up for me.

The guys did a good job Sunday. The range wasn't too broad and they didn't hold the notes too long.

hookinreds
10-22-2007, 09:22 PM
I'm all for free speech but I think it should be both ways. If you want to say something to me that offends me, then I should have the right to beat the crap out of you. If you decide not to stand during the National Anthem as a right to free speech, then I should have the right to whap you upside your head. Alas, I'm in the minority on this opinion.

Also, I just wanted to say, I enjoyed the National Anthem this time. I'm one of those weird people who like to sing along during the National Anthem and if the singer gets to personal with "Their" rendition, it screws it up for me.

The guys did a good job Sunday. The range wasn't too broad and they didn't hold the notes too long.

Yea, I dont' need to hear anyone's intreptation of how they think they would like it, it's not a funeral march, it's not a opera, and contrary to what they believe, I'm not here for them. Sing it so that somebody knows what the heck your singing.

Mean Machine
10-22-2007, 11:35 PM
I think you were 100% in the right to say something to this woman, it's called freedom of speech.
Now this woman had the right to sit also, it's called freedom of decision.
Now what this woman is guilty of is disrespect for the environment she is in.
When you go to another place, be it your friend's house or another country, being respectful of your host's traditions is the right thing to do.
My son's friends come in the house, they know we take off our shoes. They don't do it, it shows disrespect and they WILL get a nice but stern reminder from me.

That's all you did, it was in the right. And yes, when Our Flag is presented and our National Anthem is playing, I am appalled by the lack of respect shown. Regardless of your thoughts on the current situation, we are Americans, and that flag and song stand for more than any current,past or future administration.

I attend many different types of sporting events, and I will say to see 350,000 people motionless, standing, and quiet at the Indy 500 during Taps and the National Anthmem brings goosebumps and tears to my eyes every year.

mancunian
10-24-2007, 02:28 AM
100% right. Too many people are nothing but leaches in this country. They come here and suck the blood (money) right out of this country and then don't show us any respect. Personally, I think it's bull crap and it's what is wrong with the world today. America will fall some day and like Rome will crumble from within. All this crap of keeping one's diversity and a refusal to become a part of American society (while still holding on to one's own traditions) is doing nothing but divide us.
Big assumption to say she actually lived in the US.....could have been a visitor? And how do you know what she does and what she contributes to society?

Texanfan4ever
10-24-2007, 01:02 PM
I think you were 100% in the right to say something to this woman, it's called freedom of speech.
Now this woman had the right to sit also, it's called freedom of decision.
Now what this woman is guilty of is disrespect for the environment she is in.
When you go to another place, be it your friend's house or another country, being respectful of your host's traditions is the right thing to do.
My son's friends come in the house, they know we take off our shoes. They don't do it, it shows disrespect and they WILL get a nice but stern reminder from me.

That's all you did, it was in the right. And yes, when Our Flag is presented and our National Anthem is playing, I am appalled by the lack of respect shown. Regardless of your thoughts on the current situation, we are Americans, and that flag and song stand for more than any current,past or future administration.

I attend many different types of sporting events, and I will say to see 350,000 people motionless, standing, and quiet at the Indy 500 during Taps and the National Anthmem brings goosebumps and tears to my eyes every year.


Hey Mean, I knew you would agree me. And you hit it right on the head. It is disrespectful. Period.

Texanfan4ever
10-24-2007, 01:05 PM
I think there are better things to complain about when the National Anthem is playing for instance talking while it's playing. If your smart enough to stand be smart enough to STFU.

FYI - The Star Spangled Banner is the name of the flag that Key wrote the lyrics of the National Anthem to and not the name of the song. The song is actually named "Defence of Fort McHenry". Just a little History of events that transpired in the otherwise not so great state of Maryland.


I don't talk ever during it, this was right before they started singing. It took all of about 3 seconds.

swtbound07
10-24-2007, 01:15 PM
whats wrong to me here is the american insistance on conformity. Do i think its disrespectful? Yep. Probably intentionally so. How does it hurt you in any way what another person does? In a public venue. She paid just as much to sit in her seat as you did to stand in yours. People need to mind their own damn business. Was i standing with my hat off? Hell yes. Thats what i believe.

Texan_Bill
10-24-2007, 02:03 PM
whats wrong to me here is the american insistance on conformity. Do i think its disrespectful? Yep. Probably intentionally so. How does it hurt you in any way what another person does? In a public venue. She paid just as much to sit in her seat as you did to stand in yours. People need to mind their own damn business. Was i standing with my hat off? Hell yes. Thats what i believe.

If you read some of the posts, that some folks, (i.e. Papal, real, me and others) will defend someone's right, no matter how disrespectful they may be...


50% Right, alas, 50% wrong:

As a person who served this country in the military, the initial reaction is "love it or leave it!!"

As a person who now understands what my service meant to this country - and that was defending people's freedom(s) and the Constitution, I defended their right to 'not stand'.

It's a hard, bitter pill to swallow and I don't like, but that doesn't matter. At least I can say I am not a hypocrite..

I agree with...

But I still think not standing is disrespectful...

As another vet; I concur 100%.

I have never considered it customary for anyone other than an American to stand.

StarStruck
10-24-2007, 03:31 PM
The thing that concerns me is that even though many speak proudly of the freedom that America has, the application implies "that is if you agree with me." Given some of the reactions, the behavior isn't any different than what would happen in some of the countries that we critically oppose.

Personally, I stand for the National Anthem and believe that I should. Also, as a Christian, I bow my head and give respect to someone during prayer. However, if the person standing next to me chooses to talk during that time, even though I am personally offended, I respect their right to do so. Since we seem to throw around the word class so often, then I think that both instances would provide an excellent opportunity to demonstrate class.

hookinreds
10-24-2007, 03:57 PM
whats wrong to me here is the american insistance on conformity. Do i think its disrespectful? Yep. Probably intentionally so. How does it hurt you in any way what another person does? In a public venue. She paid just as much to sit in her seat as you did to stand in yours. People need to mind their own damn business. Was i standing with my hat off? Hell yes. Thats what i believe.

Thank you France.

dskillz
10-24-2007, 04:02 PM
The thing that concerns me is that even though many speak proudly of the freedom that America has, the application implies "that is if you agree with me." Given some of the reactions, the behavior isn't any different than what would happen in some of the countries that we critically oppose.

Personally, I stand for the National Anthem and believe that I should. Also, as a Christian, I bow my head and give respect to someone during prayer. However, if the person standing next to me chooses to talk during that time, even though I am personally offended, I respect their right to do so. Since we seem to throw around the word class so often, then I think that both instances would provide an excellent opportunity to demonstrate class.


Exactly. The irony of someone screaming down to someone to stand for a song that represents freedom is almost painful. If she doesn't want to stand that is her right. Freedom swings both ways. For all the OP knows, she was praying while everyone was standing. Why is it that many people on this board are so obsessed with what others do? People mad because people don't stand up during the game, people mad because others don't make noise, made because others make noise at the wrong time, etc. Chill out and worry about yourself.

hookinreds
10-24-2007, 04:05 PM
Exactly. The irony of someone screaming down to someone to stand for a song that represents freedom is almost painful. If she doesn't want to stand that is her right. Freedom swings both ways. For all the OP knows, she was praying while everyone was standing. Why is it that many people on this board are so obsessed with what others do? People mad because people don't stand up during the game, people mad because others don't make noise, made because others make noise at the wrong time, etc. Chill out and worry about yourself.

Yet you felt obligated to stick your nose in this for your two cents?

Texan_Bill
10-24-2007, 04:10 PM
That stuff pisses me off too, but I would be a hypocrite if I condemned someone for the very freedoms that I served this Country to protect...



*EDIT*

I have one hypocrisy though - freakin flag burners.

Texanfan4ever
10-24-2007, 04:16 PM
Exactly. The irony of someone screaming down to someone to stand for a song that represents freedom is almost painful. If she doesn't want to stand that is her right. Freedom swings both ways. For all the OP knows, she was praying while everyone was standing. Why is it that many people on this board are so obsessed with what others do? People mad because people don't stand up during the game, people mad because others don't make noise, made because others make noise at the wrong time, etc. Chill out and worry about yourself.


Okay, first off, let me correct you. I never SCREAMED down to anyone. I was right next to her, and I said those nine words very politely beginning with "With all due respect". I am not obssesed with what others do. Do you remember after 911 some employees in offices in Florida were instructed to take down their American flags in their offices because it was insulting to the foreigners that aren't from here. AND THEY DID IT OR THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR JOBS? Same thing. That is the beginning of the demise of our country.
Same thing with English being the primary language. This is America.

hookinreds
10-24-2007, 04:24 PM
If everyone gets what they want, nobody gets what they want.

David_Carr
10-24-2007, 04:28 PM
I remember the Rockets played Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in '01 and I am 99% positive it was the opening game of the season, a little over a month removed from the terrosit attacks.

He wouldn't stand during the anthem (at the peak of American Patriotism in my generation), instead, he sat in a chair on the bench courtside and watched. The controversy had built regarding would he just stay in the tunnel until after the song or would he make himself the center of attention by mocking the national anthem.

He sat and after the anthem I booed...loudly...when they announced his name. He has the same right to *voice* his opinion in the same way I do mine.

You were within your free speech right to make a reasonable statement to her.

/hypocrite angle: If you roll up on me and make a comment about me smoking a cigarette in a perfectly legal environment to smoke in, you'll kindly get a "mind your own business" and a stern eyeballing. Nothing worse than fake-cough-anti-smoker person who acts like you just took a year off THEIR life by taking a drag.

Texan_Bill
10-24-2007, 04:33 PM
At least this lady wasn't Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf (aka Chris Jackson), who was born in Gulfport Mississippi, got rich in the NBA and refused to stand. That was more infuriating than this lady.

I posted this earlier in the thread...

Texanmike02
10-24-2007, 10:41 PM
I would have slapped you if you were the one to tell me when I need to or when not to stand up. It's generally common courtesy to stand during the star spangled banner. I get your patriotism but chill out a little bit. The lady wasn't as patriotic as you. No big deal. I know a lot of Americans who aren't real too happy with our country and probably don't want to represent by standing.

I've been scolded one time too many for not standing and my tolerance runs thin sometimes. Everytime that I didn't stand, I didn't know they were playing the anthem (I'm Deaf) but once I realize it, I get right on it and stand as well as remove my hat. My point though is that virtually everytime that I've been scolded, it was in a rude manner hence why I'll respond with a dirty look right back at the one who just scolded me. Americans can be extreme. They're either for or against. By your anger, I'll take it that you're also extremely for.

Hey, I'm just as American as anyone else and I want our country to be represented well. Are we worthy of that right now? Bush? Iraq? Afghanistian? A lot of people don't think so. Then again, this IS a country of free speech and if a lady doesn't want to stand, then so be it. It's her right.

I'll tell you this much.. I would have been pissed too. If someone didn't stand for MY anthem I'd go ape****. I've been to various sporting events at other countries.. I stand for their anthem, even more so now. You do have a right to be pissed. Its not about what's going on in Iraq. Its not about who the president is. I got chastised one time for not going outside to pay respect for the flag at retreat. The most embarrassing thing I've ever done. I was a young and new to the AF at the time and just didn't want to go because it was hot out. There was a guy who came in after retreat and told me about how he understood how uncomfortable it was. That it gets damn hot in Oklahoma... it was probably about 100F outside that day. Then he told me about how hot it gets in Iraq. How its even hotter because you can't go home. He was very nice, and I was very ashamed.

I'm not going to pretend that I have made great sacrifices for this country. I don't know much more about war than your average American. I've stayed in the country for all of my enlistments. But you're not honoring the President, you're not honoring the national policy. You're honoring every person who has ever died to give you the freedoms you have today.

If you're from another country and you're not standing that's a problem too. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That country, those people are hopefully being hospitable.. or you wouldn't go to a game I hope. Show them some courtesy and respect their traditions.

Mike

hookinreds
10-24-2007, 10:56 PM
I remember the Rockets played Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in '01 and I am 99% positive it was the opening game of the season, a little over a month removed from the terrosit attacks.

He wouldn't stand during the anthem (at the peak of American Patriotism in my generation), instead, he sat in a chair on the bench courtside and watched. The controversy had built regarding would he just stay in the tunnel until after the song or would he make himself the center of attention by mocking the national anthem.

He sat and after the anthem I booed...loudly...when they announced his name. He has the same right to *voice* his opinion in the same way I do mine.

You were within your free speech right to make a reasonable statement to her.

/hypocrite angle: If you roll up on me and make a comment about me smoking a cigarette in a perfectly legal environment to smoke in, you'll kindly get a "mind your own business" and a stern eyeballing. Nothing worse than fake-cough-anti-smoker person who acts like you just took a year off THEIR life by taking a drag.

Blow smoke in my direction once, sure, possible oversight. Give me an evil eye, and do it again, and you'll be smoking your cigarette from a perfectly different orifice.

Specnatz
10-24-2007, 11:21 PM
Let me tell you where I stand!!

My dad whom I had more disagreements with than Bush does with Clinton.

He served in WWII as a tail gunner for a B17 bomber, life expectansy of 2 missions (army-air core [no air force at the time) and they were killed or captured). So anyone telling me to put my flag can go stuff it. No one has gone through what I have and not come out a better person. I say (Yes Ma'aM and No m'am and No'Sir and yes 'Sir) what it respected and I do right by others.

This eve I talked to a friend bacuse of things and I know my life has been easier and harder than others, figure than one out spanky.

I have dated asian, indian (kuwait), austrailian, Irish and german ladies and ya know what I have learned most Americans do not understand freedom!!

eriadoc
10-24-2007, 11:37 PM
If everyone gets what they want, nobody gets what they want.

And we Americans typically get what we deserve.

I am a veteran, and like Texan Bill said, it's a hard, bitter pill to swallow, but she does have the right to sit during the Anthem, the same way those scumbags have the right to burn the flag. I don't actually have a problem with the act of either, to be perfectly honest. What I have a problem with is those people don't even begin to understand what a great country they live in that allows them to do such things. They burned flags during Vietnam - they should have been citizens of Cambodia a few years later and tried a stunt like that. Or try expressing their opinion in Communist China. The list goes on, but rest assured, they'd gladly stand for the Anthem if they realized those things.

In the meantime, our vets continue to fight and die for slugs like that. And it is the American way, for good or ill.

Giant Tiger
10-25-2007, 12:41 AM
Any hockey fans here? I'm curious what Canadians do during the Star Spangled Banner and what we do during Oh Canada.

I'm Canadian and I stand for the Star Spangled Banner by choice. It shows respect and it's the proper thing to do. I remember my high school graduation ceremony (many years ago). They didn't play O Canada-they played God Save The Queen. To this day I still don't understand that. Everybody stood up, but after the ceremony a lot of kids (& parents) were asking why they excluded O Canada. My grandmother's British so of course I'll stand up, but it was strange to hear a "foreign anthem" for our graduation.

I did see a soccer game (yes-only 1) about 20 years ago in Toronto when Canada played Wales. I remember everybody stood for both anthems and a few people actually sang the Welsh anthem. I believe you should stand for the National Anthem. It's just disrespectful not to.

fredaustex
10-25-2007, 09:08 AM
For the most part they respect the anthems both ways... Although I remember a Stanley Cup finals a couple/few of years ago that got pretty ugly with the Canadiens booing our Anthem at their house and then 'US Americans' booing the Canadien Anthem at the arena of whatever US city was in it...

I remember that as well. That didn't last long though. The league had to ask people to not boo and when people realized it was a low class thing to do, it stopped. I don't remember if they stood or not, but sitting quietly is definitely a better choice than booing.

Texan_Bill
10-25-2007, 09:12 AM
I remember that as well. That didn't last long though. The league had to ask people to not boo and when people realized it was a low class thing to do, it stopped. I don't remember if they stood or not, but sitting quietly is definitely a better choice than booing.

Yep... It didn't last long at all. I thought it sucked from both perspectives anyway... it was more political, because we had just went into Iraq, IIRC.

barrett
10-25-2007, 11:35 AM
excuse me while I alienate myself....

i don't stand for the national anthem. i am perfectly able and capable to do so. i choose not to. i agree with many of the opinions on this thread. i disagree with more. emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.

i feel fortunate to live in a country where i can choose to participate when and how i see fit. i can worship who and what i see fit. i can express myself however i see fit just so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights and freedom. just as you can. i think the key point here is that no matter what you believe, just remember that each and every person has the equal right to believe what they believe. for anyone here to tell me that a ceremony that is performed has any sort of right or wrong way to participate within our legal freedoms that are afforded to us is simply not true.

i know the point has been made many times over. you have every right to disagree with someone. they have every right to disagree with you. make no assumptions about a persons motivation until you know all of the facts. which you don't and you won't. you won't find me asking you to sit down. i won't assume that i know why you stand. all 70,000 (as if there were that many fans in the stadium at 11:45) are not standing for the exact same reasons.

i support the opinion of those who have served in the military, who feel that it is that exact freedom of dissent that they are defending. i find your stance both profound and moving and i thank you. even more so when you do not agree with some of the actions that you are in fact defending. after all, it is the "rights of the people" that you are protecting.

go texans.

Yankee_In_TX
10-25-2007, 11:42 AM
*I ALWAYS regret posting in serious threads*

I respect your right to not stand for the anthem.

But I am of the opinion if you hate AMERICA so much, well, Mexcio isn't that far away.

Texanmike02
10-25-2007, 11:49 AM
excuse me while I alienate myself....

i don't stand for the national anthem. i am perfectly able and capable to do so. i choose not to. i agree with many of the opinions on this thread. i disagree with more. emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.

i feel fortunate to live in a country where i can choose to participate when and how i see fit. i can worship who and what i see fit. i can express myself however i see fit just so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights and freedom. just as you can. i think the key point here is that no matter what you believe, just remember that each and every person has the equal right to believe what they believe. for anyone here to tell me that a ceremony that is performed has any sort of right or wrong way to participate within our legal freedoms that are afforded to us is simply not true.

i know the point has been made many times over. you have every right to disagree with someone. they have every right to disagree with you. make no assumptions about a persons motivation until you know all of the facts. which you don't and you won't. you won't find me asking you to sit down. i won't assume that i know why you stand. all 70,000 (as if there were that many fans in the stadium at 11:45) are not standing for the exact same reasons.

i support the opinion of those who have served in the military, who feel that it is that exact freedom of dissent that they are defending. i find your stance both profound and moving and i thank you. even more so when you do not agree with some of the actions that you are in fact defending. after all, it is the "rights of the people" that you are protecting.

go texans.

You disgust me.

You know, I almost left it at that. I almost stopped there. But I decided I was going to speak my mind.

You certainly have the right to sit. I suppose that's part of what I'm protecting too. You know, you can also spit in my face. I can't do a damn thing about it if you do. I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.

Congratulations, you are taking full advantage of the "freedom" to make an ass of yourself. That's what I think every time read an opinion like yours. Yes I serve to "defend your right not to stand". Funny you have no problem with someone making the ultimate sacrifice for you. But standing for the average of 1:44 is just out of the question isn't it. Fortunately for me and you, there were people before us who were a little less concerned with being uncomfortable (either philosophically or physically).

Mike

swtbound07
10-25-2007, 11:54 AM
i stand.

I won't say the pledge of allegiance, cause it says god in it though...put me in the boat with him.

ActualTexan
10-25-2007, 11:55 AM
excuse me while I alienate myself....

emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.



Perhaps I am just not as evolved. I never thought standing for the National Anthem was all that complicated. I pay my respects to those that fought at Omaha Beach, Antietam, Inchon, and Laos.

I've never thought I had to hang my complicated emotions out to do so either. To each his own I suppose. Next time, give yourself a pep talk - try standing.

Texanmike02
10-25-2007, 12:03 PM
i stand.

I won't say the pledge of allegiance, cause it says god in it though...put me in the boat with him.

Thank you for standing.

We'll save the boat and pledge conversation for another day. Do you have a problem with "One nation under God?"

Mike

Texan_Bill
10-25-2007, 12:12 PM
*bites tongue --- hard!! But refuses to be a hypocrite.*

swtbound07
10-25-2007, 12:17 PM
Thank you for standing.

We'll save the boat and pledge conversation for another day. Do you have a problem with "One nation under God?"

Mike

yep. We might be one nation, but i refuse to believe we're under one god. Im under no gods.

Texan_Bill
10-25-2007, 12:23 PM
yep. We might be one nation, but i refuse to believe we're under one god. Im under no gods.

Thats an easy enough fix, instead of saying:
"One Nation under God"
say:
"One Nation........"

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation............, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


Not so hard. You have pledges allegiance to the US, without God in it
************************************************** ***
I am refraining from the post about sitting during the Anthem until the blood quits boiling.

Yankee_In_TX
10-25-2007, 12:23 PM
yep. We might be one nation, but i refuse to believe we're under one god. Im under no gods.

After all, would God have allowed that poor duck to suffer? :splits:

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 12:26 PM
Barrett - why is that you do not stand? Can you explain your reasons?

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 12:27 PM
yep. We might be one nation, but i refuse to believe we're under one god. Im under no gods.


And THAT would be another whole discussion. I don't have enough evergy for that.

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 12:37 PM
You disgust me.

You know, I almost left it at that. I almost stopped there. But I decided I was going to speak my mind.

You certainly have the right to sit. I suppose that's part of what I'm protecting too. You know, you can also spit in my face. I can't do a damn thing about it if you do. I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.

Congratulations, you are taking full advantage of the "freedom" to make an ass of yourself. That's what I think every time read an opinion like yours. Yes I serve to "defend your right not to stand". Funny you have no problem with someone making the ultimate sacrifice for you. But standing for the average of 1:44 is just out of the question isn't it. Fortunately for me and you, there were people before us who were a little less concerned with being uncomfortable (either philosophically or physically).

Mike

Exactly my point Mike. People want all this freedom that we have, but they won't take a stand for it. We just owe it to them. It is actually frightening.

Texanmike02
10-25-2007, 12:56 PM
Exactly my point Mike. People want all this freedom that we have, but they won't take a stand for it. We just owe it to them. It is actually frightening.

I know. It makes me sick beyond words. Of course they have that right. The logic to me is simple.

If someone you knew was killed in action.
When they played the Anthem at their funeral, would you honor them by standing?

Why not do that for everyone else who has already died?


Oh well. I have to go out of the office for a while.

Mike

powerfuldragon
10-25-2007, 01:07 PM
Do you have a problem with "One nation under God?"


i just say it the pre-1950s way "one nation." none of that beneath any omnipotents.


i also stand.

Hookem Horns
10-25-2007, 01:49 PM
*I ALWAYS regret posting in serious threads*

I respect your right to not stand for the anthem.

But I am of the opinion if you hate AMERICA so much, well, Mexcio isn't that far away.

Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.

Yankee_In_TX
10-25-2007, 01:58 PM
Well, in this case it's just people being lazy, I'm willing to bet. They should be reminded to stand.

The only person I have ever KNOWN who refused to stand and say the pledge was because he was weird and hated America.

Should people be sitting because of religious reasons, I personally can respect that.

But I can't come up with too many reasons NOT to stand that don't involve a statement against our country or its leadership (aside from disabilities).

David_Carr
10-25-2007, 02:00 PM
Blow smoke in my direction once, sure, possible oversight. Give me an evil eye, and do it again, and you'll be smoking your cigarette from a perfectly different orifice.

Cute.

I said nothing about blowing it in your face. That went out to the holier than thous who believe they are the cigarette cancer police.

/mind your business, it took one thread for me to realize we won't get along.
//back to the real topic

Can you imagine if we had to rely on some of these folks during WWII...those guys would walk out of a boat just to be raked by a machine gun and we can't get our generation to stand up for a song.

Hookem Horns
10-25-2007, 02:01 PM
Well, in this case it's just people being lazy, I'm willing to bet. They should be reminded to stand.

The only person I have ever KNOWN who refused to stand and say the pledge was because he was weird and hated America.

Should people be sitting because of religious reasons, I personally can respect that.

But I can't come up with too many reasons NOT to stand that don't involve a statement against our country or its leadership (aside from disabilities).

I agree with that and personally if they have religious reasons for not participating they should simply wait until after the ceremony to take their seats. It certainly does look disrespectful when one just sits there I won't argue that.

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 02:03 PM
Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.

Excuse me, saluting the flag is a form of idolatry or worship? Seriously, WHO would see it as that? It is a salute to America and to the freedom that we all share.

The CHristian thing is another whole matter having nothing to do with our country's anthem.

swtbound07
10-25-2007, 02:05 PM
Cute.

I said nothing about blowing it in your face. That went out to the holier than thous who believe they are the cigarette cancer police.

/mind your business, it took one thread for me to realize we won't get along.
//back to the real topic

Can you imagine if we had to rely on some of these folks during WWII...those guys would walk out of a boat just to be raked by a machine gun and we can't get our generation to stand up for a song.

i have a right not to breathe your smoke. Take that stuff elsewhere. I don't want lung cancer for your stupid decisions.

Yankee_In_TX
10-25-2007, 02:06 PM
Excuse me, saluting the flag is a form of idolatry or worship? Seriously, WHO would see it as that? It is a salute to America and to the freedom that we all share.

The CHristian thing is another whole matter having nothing to do with our country's anthem.

I think he was saying some people MAY feel that standing is a violation of their religious beliefs, I can respect that. I've witnessed many MUCH odder maifestations of religious beliefs in my life.

Now, back to bashing America haters....

http://www.yourstandardlife.com/images/team-america-world-police-1.jpg

hollywood_texan
10-25-2007, 02:08 PM
Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.

I have also stayed away from posting in this thread. Hookem Horns, I think you make some really good points. But, I also see a different perspective too.

It's the old cliche, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

You bring up Nazi Germany. Most Germans didn't care for the Nazi Party, but a fractured and fragmented society will yield to dictators and despots. Perfect example is Hitler. A very small amount of people can control a society if that society is not organized similar to a democracy with checks and balances.

The American Flag, the Star Spangled Banner, and others are symbols that and a society in the pursuit of virtue.

Personally, I believe you can't make someone appreciate the US and the freedoms we enjoy. You either get it, or you don't. Generally speaking about life, if you didn't earn it, you don't respect it.

I believe getting upset with someone about this situation is pointless. They can do what they want, which is the point of our society.

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 02:20 PM
I think he was saying some people MAY feel that standing is a violation of their religious beliefs, I can respect that. I've witnessed many MUCH odder maifestations of religious beliefs in my life.

Now, back to bashing America haters....

http://www.yourstandardlife.com/images/team-america-world-police-1.jpg


I know that is what he was saying, but I don't see how an anthem for one's country has anything to do with ANY kind of religion. To me it just means you are in our country enjoying our freedoms and you don't appreciate it or feel any loyalty towards it. It disgusts me. If they are not happy here, and can't do something as simple as standing to basically say "I'm proud to be an American" then go somewhere else where you won't be so miserable.

It is just simply black and white to me, barring any handicap of course. I've see people in wheel chairs every week with their hand over their hearts during the song, even though they can't stand up.

David_Carr
10-25-2007, 02:23 PM
i have a right not to breathe your smoke. Take that stuff elsewhere. I don't want lung cancer for your stupid decisions.

Then go somewhere else.

I have the right to consume a legal product in a legal environment.

I quit going to the Mucky Duck when they imposed their no smoking ordinance, my habit was not welcome there, but there is a place for everyone...mine is in the smoking section.

David_Carr
10-25-2007, 02:29 PM
I have also stayed away from posting in this thread. Hookem Horns, I think you make some really good points. But, I also see a different perspective too.

It's the old cliche, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

You bring up Nazi Germany. Most Germans didn't care for the Nazi Party, but a fractured and fragmented society will yield to dictators and despots. Perfect example is Hitler. A very small amount of people can control a society if that society is not organized similar to a democracy with checks and balances.

The American Flag, the Star Spangled Banner, and others are symbols that and a society in the pursuit of virtue.

Personally, I believe you can't make someone appreciate the US and the freedoms we enjoy. You either get it, or you don't. Generally speaking about life, if you didn't earn it, you don't respect it.

I believe getting upset with someone about this situation is pointless. They can do what they want, which is the point of our society.

Well put.

If it were a mandatory law to stand, we wouldn't be the free society that we are.

Brando
10-25-2007, 02:38 PM
Should people be sitting because of religious reasons, I personally can respect that.



Most religions still respect the crowd around them and stand even though it is "idolizing".

Brando
10-25-2007, 02:45 PM
I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.


That's a whole new thread in itself. I see "Save a life" signs, etc. and I tell my wife, why don't they save their own. They do not know what the mothers are going through.

Hookem Horns
10-25-2007, 02:47 PM
I know that is what he was saying, but I don't see how an anthem for one's country has anything to do with ANY kind of religion. To me it just means you are in our country enjoying our freedoms and you don't appreciate it or feel any loyalty towards it. It disgusts me. If they are not happy here, and can't do something as simple as standing to basically say "I'm proud to be an American" then go somewhere else where you won't be so miserable.


Well, if it is due to religious reasons where are they going to go? If they feel saluting the flag is idolatry in this country I am sure they will feel the same in another country. Actually, in another country they might go to jail for that belief.

You may not see it but I see a lot of similarities between religion and patriotism. Both ramp up emotions, cause divisions, loyalties, hatred, people kill and give their lives in the name of both. I am sure I could go on.

Yankee_In_TX
10-25-2007, 02:49 PM
That's a whole new thread in itself. I see "Save a life" signs, etc. and I tell my wife, why don't they save their own. They do not know what the mothers are going through.

One day I'm going to stand next to the idiots over 59 (between Shepherd and Main) who have the Iraq/Bush signs and hold up a "honk if you're horny" sign.

hollywood_texan
10-25-2007, 02:57 PM
I have studied Stalin a little and he made an interesting comment about the US.

Something along the lines, "The US will last as long as they maintain their virtue."

I see this situation along those same lines. I am by no means a fan of Stalin, but he had a certain belief of human nature and how that impacts a society. He didn't believe you can leave it up to an individual to do what is good for the state. His idea was getting results through the butt of gun or rifle barrell.

Point is, you really can't force people to do things, because then you are following the lines of Stalin.

Our society is based on free will, if it crumbles as a result, I really don't see how you can stop that since goes opposite of our belief structure. It's just an inherent flaw when a society is based on freedom. A free society requires the individual to maintain the state, not the other way around.

Which brings me back to the Stalin quote from above. Just some food for thought...

Texan_Bill
10-25-2007, 02:57 PM
One day I'm going to stand next to the idiots over 59 (between Shepherd and Main) who have the Iraq/Bush signs and hold up a "honk if you're horny" sign.

I quite often tell those folks that they are #1

Brando
10-25-2007, 03:02 PM
One day I'm going to stand next to the idiots over 59 (between Shepherd and Main) who have the Iraq/Bush signs and hold up a "honk if you're horny" sign.

lol Good idea.:whip:

ActualTexan
10-25-2007, 03:11 PM
[QUOTE=hollywood_texan;769600]
Our society is based on free will, if it crumbles as a result, I really don't see how you can stop that since goes opposite of our belief structure. It's just an inherent flaw when a society is based on freedom. A free society requires the individual to maintain the state, not the other way around.
QUOTE]

Uhm....I do believe that is the point. Keeping the faith is not a mandate of the state, its a privelidge of the individual. People who think so much of themselves than to do something so ridiculous as stand during a national anthem (or people who type paragraphs upon paragraphs in order to explain why they don't) are losing their freedom to do so.

The flaw is in the arrogance of the people, not in the virtue of the freedom.

frequentfliertx
10-25-2007, 03:45 PM
When the anthem plays at Reliant I take my hat off and stand up out of respect. However, I don't give a good goddamn what people around me do. As long as I show good manners that's all that matters to me. If people don't want to stand for our anthem then that's their business, not mine. Good manners are important to me. I'm only concerned that I have them. I'm not concerned if others show them.

TEXANRED
10-25-2007, 03:50 PM
whats wrong to me here is the american insistance on conformity. Do i think its disrespectful? Yep. Probably intentionally so. How does it hurt you in any way what another person does? In a public venue. She paid just as much to sit in her seat as you did to stand in yours. People need to mind their own damn business. Was i standing with my hat off? Hell yes. Thats what i believe.


I have been posting on the other board and forgot how much i missed reading your posts.

Texan_Bill
10-25-2007, 03:50 PM
If for some reason, I am not paying attention when they make the announcement for the National Anthem, anyone on this board has permission to smack me in the back of the head to remove my hat and get on my feet... :specnatz:

barrett
10-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Barrett - why is that you do not stand? Can you explain your reasons?

with all due respect, i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice. rather, i want to make it clear that it is a choice.

a separate thought: one is not necessarily intending to insult you just because you feel insulted.

-go texans

ActualTexan
10-25-2007, 04:06 PM
i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice.


The man won't stand for an anthem commemorating the countless lives that have been paid for his personal use of free air, why on Earth would he stand by his reasons not to?

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 04:09 PM
with all due respect, i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice. rather, i want to make it clear that it is a choice.

a separate thought: one is not necessarily intending to insult you just because you feel insulted.

-go texans


I would agree with that. I don't know who is insulted, I am certainly not, just having a discussion about what happened.

barrett
10-25-2007, 04:10 PM
right. i wasn't directing that at you or anyone in particular. i should have clarified.

Txn_in_Oki
10-25-2007, 04:19 PM
To me it's not about religion or whether you agree with the policies of this country or not. It's about respect. It's about getting off your lazy ass and respecting the sacrifices of those who have given you the right to be here.

Just like anything else, you give something away without having someone earn it or put any effort into it, be it money, or a car, or a house, or freedom, in the end it will just get pissed away because there is no appreciation for it.

Texanfan4ever
10-25-2007, 04:21 PM
To me it's not about religion or whether you agree with the policies of this country or not. It's about respect. It's about getting off your lazy ass and respecting the sacrifices of those who have given you the right to be here.

Just like anything else, you give something away without having someone earn it or put any effort into it, be it money, or a car, or a house, or freedom, in the end it will just get pissed away because there is no appreciation for it.


Exactly, it comes down to appreciation and respect.

hollywood_texan
10-25-2007, 05:08 PM
Just like anything else, you give something away without having someone earn it or put any effort into it, be it money, or a car, or a house, or freedom, in the end it will just get pissed away because there is no appreciation for it.

My little saying is:

"If you don't earn it, you don't respect it."

Agreed, but there seems to be inherent flaws in anything and everything regarding human beings. This issue with this lady is an inherent flaw in a free society. Changing it though, we go against our free society...

Life many times is a contradiction in terms...

dalemurphy
10-26-2007, 02:11 PM
Why is it that the people that are most judgmental tend to also be the ones with so little intellectual curiosity?"

Some advice for the rednecks... you have to look at things from other perspectives in order to understand them. Do you realize that other perspectives do exist in the universe? What must it be like to walk through life so unincumbered with thought and consideration, assuming you stumbled squarely in the middle of "truth", without ever searching for it.

ActualTexan
10-26-2007, 03:43 PM
Why is it that the people that are most judgmental tend to also be the ones with so little intellectual curiosity?"

Some advice for the rednecks... you have to look at things from other perspectives in order to understand them. Do you realize that other perspectives do exist in the universe? What must it be like to walk through life so unincumbered with thought and consideration, assuming you stumbled squarely in the middle of "truth", without ever searching for it.

"Judgemental" Thats a good word. Its like stooping to call someone an incurious redneck if they've been so bold as to have formed an opinion about the difficult, complex, and divisive act of showing a little respect for the people who have died so that you can be disrespectful.

A guy gets shoved to the front line at Manassas, or lands in the front of the landing craft on a French beach. And, just before the bullets start to fly you can jump in front of him and tell him not to worry - in just a few years people who will live twice his age on this day will be able to ignore him with intellectual ease... and they'll attack anyone who doesn't ignore him and as a Red White and Blue lunatic, a redneck, who just doesn't understand the finer points of an argument.

Texanmike02
10-26-2007, 05:51 PM
Why is it that the people that are most judgmental tend to also be the ones with so little intellectual curiosity?"

Some advice for the rednecks... you have to look at things from other perspectives in order to understand them. Do you realize that other perspectives do exist in the universe? What must it be like to walk through life so unincumbered with thought and consideration, assuming you stumbled squarely in the middle of "truth", without ever searching for it.

Do you have any advice for those of us who are not rednecks who hold that opinion? Speaking of judgmental...

Somewhere in the world it was lost on people that it is ok to be judgmental. That its part of what we do as human beings. That you make judgments about every person you interact with. Whether it is to decide they are rednecks, unpatriotic, unamerican or any other opinion you form, be it positive or negative.

Then again I suppose you're right. The world is much easier if you refuse to take a stand. I can respect those that disagree with me. Even if they disgust me. Even if they have an opinion which I find vile. I can at least respect the fact that they take a stand. But those who hide behind "everyone has a right to their opinion, and there is no absolute truth." Way to go. Maybe everyone will be your friend. Maybe you will go through an entire day without offending someone. If that is your goal, to not provoke thought, to not debate... well then I don't think you should be throwing names out their either. I don't suppose you too the time to look at the "redneck's" side of the story. No you just jumped in and assumed that you are far intellectually superior to those who have an opinion that others might find offensive.

Some advice for the pseudo-intellectuals. Perhaps you should evaluate your statements for continuity before you post them. I don't know if this means get your editor in chief involved, your secretary or maybe even have your 3rd grader read it to see if they think it makes sense. But to sit there and call someone who has an opinion and doesn't back down a redneck.. hmm... ever looked up the definition of redneck?



Mike

waddy
10-26-2007, 07:13 PM
Well, she can do whatever she wants for me. I believe in the first ammendment but I also remember there is a second, third, forth and so on. A little aside, but isn't it funny how so many people can't hammer the first ammendment home hard enough but don't want to belive in the second!!! ;-)

All I know is that as soon as I become an American Citizen I'll be showing how much I love and respect this nation whenever I can. I have known the words to the national anthem for over 12 years and can't wait to sing along and not feel weird because I'm not acually a Citizen yet. Oh, and if someone happens to mention my capitalization of the word citizen, I'm doing it because I can't wait to be a CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!

Texanmike02
10-26-2007, 10:04 PM
Well, she can do whatever she wants for me. I believe in the first ammendment but I also remember there is a second, third, forth and so on. A little aside, but isn't it funny how so many people can't hammer the first ammendment home hard enough but don't want to belive in the second!!! ;-)

All I know is that as soon as I become an American Citizen I'll be showing how much I love and respect this nation whenever I can. I have known the words to the national anthem for over 12 years and can't wait to sing along and not feel weird because I'm not acually a Citizen yet. Oh, and if someone happens to mention my capitalization of the word citizen, I'm doing it because I can't wait to be a CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!

Well congratulations when you do become a citizen. This "redneck" welcomes all who want to come here and do it legally... And thank you. I'm assuming that other than being a Texans fan, you are also a productive member of society... and thank you for that too.

Mike

hookinreds
10-26-2007, 11:04 PM
Well, she can do whatever she wants for me. I believe in the first ammendment but I also remember there is a second, third, forth and so on. A little aside, but isn't it funny how so many people can't hammer the first ammendment home hard enough but don't want to belive in the second!!! ;-)

All I know is that as soon as I become an American Citizen I'll be showing how much I love and respect this nation whenever I can. I have known the words to the national anthem for over 12 years and can't wait to sing along and not feel weird because I'm not acually a Citizen yet. Oh, and if someone happens to mention my capitalization of the word citizen, I'm doing it because I can't wait to be a CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!

Good for you!
Singed,
Redneck

barrett
10-27-2007, 12:36 AM
...The world is much easier if you refuse to take a stand. I can respect those that disagree with me. Even if they disgust me. Even if they have an opinion which I find vile. I can at least respect the fact that they take a stand. But those who hide behind "everyone has a right to their opinion, and there is no absolute truth." Way to go. Maybe everyone will be your friend. Maybe you will go through an entire day without offending someone. If that is your goal, to not provoke thought, to not debate...
Mike

If you don't think that sitting down during the national anthem in a football stadium deep in the heart of texas isn't taking a stand then you're perhaps too selfish to see another side. certianly not seeing my "stance". but then again i'm part of the "baby killer sign group" or something... or perhaps you'd just be assuming that i'm someone from another country because surely no american would possibly deviate from the standard practices of traditional public patriotism. no true american would have an opinion that differs from yours or anyone else apart of mass opinion. after all, you are a true american and your opinions or the ones that were taught to you are the only ones that matter.

Texanmike02
10-27-2007, 02:50 AM
If you don't think that sitting down during the national anthem in a football stadium deep in the heart of texas isn't taking a stand then you're perhaps too selfish to see another side. certianly not seeing my "stance". but then again i'm part of the "baby killer sign group" or something... or perhaps you'd just be assuming that i'm someone from another country because surely no american would possibly deviate from the standard practices of traditional public patriotism. no true american would have an opinion that differs from yours or anyone else apart of mass opinion. after all, you are a true american and your opinions or the ones that were taught to you are the only ones that matter.

let me clarify myself by saying the "baby killer" group are that I pass every friday who hold up signs and call me a baby killer because I'm in the military. When I say you're in that group.. to me its the same thing.. Its disrespectful to what I do.. and more importantly what those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice have done.

Secondly.. it is offensive to me... that you don't stand. It disgusts me. The reason doesn't really matter. Especially if you sit there and tell me "I'm not going to tell you why".

I'm not making any assumptions... but I am sure it disgusts me. The worst thing about the whole situation is that you ARE American. That's the most offensive thing to me.

And no it has nothing to do with agreeing me. But hiding behind "well I'm not telling" that's just cowardly. At least I expose my opinions out there to be criticized.

And no... if you don't explain your rational... you're not really taking a stand.



Mike

ActualTexan
10-27-2007, 04:26 AM
If you don't think that sitting down during the national anthem in a football stadium deep in the heart of texas isn't taking a stand then you're perhaps too selfish to see another side."

Huh?

dalemurphy
10-27-2007, 07:53 AM
"Judgemental" Thats a good word. Its like stooping to call someone an incurious redneck if they've been so bold as to have formed an opinion about the difficult, complex, and divisive act of showing a little respect for the people who have died so that you can be disrespectful.

A guy gets shoved to the front line at Manassas, or lands in the front of the landing craft on a French beach. And, just before the bullets start to fly you can jump in front of him and tell him not to worry - in just a few years people who will live twice his age on this day will be able to ignore him with intellectual ease... and they'll attack anyone who doesn't ignore him and as a Red White and Blue lunatic, a redneck, who just doesn't understand the finer points of an argument.

Does your informed opinion allow for the possibility that a person could decide to not stand at a football game for an anthem and yet still somehow respect people who have fought in WWII?

Somehow, I know you see that those two things are inexplicably intertwined. Again, since you interpret that act of standing for the flag to be a sign of respect for those that fought in a war, you assume the inverse for those that don't stand. However, there is a whole range of thought beyond what's going on in your head.

Tailgate
10-27-2007, 10:45 AM
Geese. Its really not that hard to fricking stand up during a song and sit back down a minute or two later. Just show some respect to those around you and sit back down. Its really simple. Get over yourselves!

ActualTexan
10-27-2007, 11:01 AM
Does your informed opinion allow for the possibility that a person could decide to not stand at a football game for an anthem and yet still somehow respect people who have fought in WWII?

Somehow, I know you see that those two things are inexplicably intertwined. Again, since you interpret that act of standing for the flag to be a sign of respect for those that fought in a war, you assume the inverse for those that don't stand. However, there is a whole range of thought beyond what's going on in your head.

Oh sure. Now I get it. You are like a three-toed bear, or a two-headed snake - when it comes to showing respect you just wanna be different. Or incognito, or complex, or something. Makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the explanation.

Hookem Horns
10-27-2007, 11:26 AM
Geese. Its really not that hard to fricking stand up during a song and sit back down a minute or two later.

Agreed, that is easy. The hard part would be someone sitting during the anthem and have to endure the scolding they would receive from people around them. Kinda like those Christian groups I mentioned during Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps for simply refusing to say the greeting of Heil Hitler. It would have been easier for them to simply just say the stupid greeting along with everyone else.

This is why I think most people that just sit during the anthem have to have some good reason (at least in their minds) and it may not always be that they just don't like the US or are being disrespectful. It takes some cojones to just sit there.

The point I have been making all along is that this is free country and it should be that way for all as long as they are not breaking the law. Some times I think this country is only truely free for those that go with the flow of the majority or the PC way of doing things.

Let me clarify to everyone, that I personally don't agree with someone just sitting during the national anthem. However I feel it is their right to do so. I am just playing the advocate here.

Now let's start another topic. What does everyone think of prayer in school or before high school football games? (stoking the flames)

StarStruck
10-27-2007, 12:16 PM
Now let's start another topic. What does everyone think of prayer in school or before high school football games? (stoking the flames)


I AM A CHRISTIAN! I THINK THAT PRAYER IN SCHOOL AND BEFORE HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL GAMES SHOULD BE DONE! WHO DOES IT REALLY HURT NOT TO PRAY? GOOD GRIEF, IS A MINUTE GOING TO KILL YOU?

On the otherhand, even though I do have strong Christian values, I respect the RIGHT of those with a different view to exercise their RIGHT. I truly do place God before Country, yet I will not make efforts to demand compliance from those around me because I respect my God.:stirpot:

dalemurphy
10-27-2007, 01:29 PM
Geese. Its really not that hard to fricking stand up during a song and sit back down a minute or two later. Just show some respect to those around you and sit back down. Its really simple. Get over yourselves!


My guess is that I do things to show respect that you do not. It's not that it is difficult to stand, it is that some people choose not to for reasons beyond a show of disrespect. Why is that so difficult for even a simple-minded person to comprehend?

dalemurphy
10-27-2007, 01:33 PM
Oh sure. Now I get it. You are like a three-toed bear, or a two-headed snake - when it comes to showing respect you just wanna be different. Or incognito, or complex, or something. Makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the explanation.


First, I do stand for the anthem. Second, I understand someone exercising their conscience in ways that may not fit my view of the world. I happen to know a couple of people who don't stand for the anthem, Barrett for instance, and trust me- Barrett aint that complex!

The only way to be offended by someone sitting is to chose to be. It's not like someone sitting down is attempting to diminish your ability to believe or practice your beliefs.

jgl35
10-27-2007, 04:12 PM
To me, all of this just comes down to something that has left this world years ago. It was called good manners.

I personnaly could care less if people sit, stand, or stand on their head, that is on them. You are free to do what you want. What the country is all about.

With me, I have stood and shown respect for the music of the US., Canada, The U.K., Aust., New Zealand, and what use to be the Republic of Viet Nam, the last being a place I neither liked of respected during me time there.

It, to me at least, is just good manners to do so.

barrett
10-28-2007, 03:17 AM
do you always place your napkin on the back of your chair when you leave your seat? if you don't then you don't have good manners. just so you know.

jgl35
10-28-2007, 07:37 AM
do you always place your napkin on the back of your chair when you leave your seat? if you don't then you don't have good manners. just so you know.

Thank you for proving my point.

BgThang
10-29-2007, 02:10 AM
Did I hear the star spangled banner being played in England during the giants game?
That was a shocker

Txn_in_Oki
10-29-2007, 04:39 AM
Did I hear the star spangled banner being played in England during the giants game?
That was a shocker

Why is it a shocker? When MLB games are played in Toronto they play the National Anthem. When Toronto plays elsewhere I believe they play O' Canada. Any event that I took part in while I lived in Japan they played both ours and Japan's Anthem.

Again, it's called respect.

TD
10-29-2007, 05:39 AM
Why is it a shocker? When MLB games are played in Toronto they play the National Anthem. When Toronto plays elsewhere I believe they play O' Canada. Any event that I took part in while I lived in Japan they played both ours and Japan's Anthem.

None of those are about the visitors kicking the host countries ass in a war.

Giant Tiger
10-29-2007, 08:58 PM
To me, all of this just comes down to something that has left this world years ago. It was called good manners.

I personnaly could care less if people sit, stand, or stand on their head, that is on them. You are free to do what you want. What the country is all about.

With me, I have stood and shown respect for the music of the US., Canada, The U.K., Aust., New Zealand, and what use to be the Republic of Viet Nam, the last being a place I neither liked of respected during me time there.

It, to me at least, is just good manners to do so.

Exactly. Sad thing is-the ones who don't stand are the ones who were given the gift of freedom by the sacrifices of others. I have a 5 year old who asked me why people sell poppies this time of year. I hope I can teach him the same values my father taught me.

StarStruck
10-29-2007, 10:38 PM
On the subject of manners, the biggest change in recent years deal with manners. Seems everything is now challenged, whether it's respect for teachers, police officers, pastors, almost any adult figure, the president, you name it, Americans challenge it. So is it really any wonder that you have those choosing to remain seated during the national anthem?

Txn_in_Oki
10-30-2007, 04:12 AM
None of those are about the visitors kicking the host countries ass in a war.


Um... as I recall the Japanese may have an itty-bitty reason to be bitter about the way things turned out back in '45.