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View Full Version : Kubiak: Better Coach, Same Problem?


Hervoyel
10-22-2007, 11:17 AM
I am starting to believe that we have a "better" coach with the same problem as our previous coach.

Make no mistake about this, I'm not talking about whether or not these are good people, good men. I don't think that you can take anything away from Dom Capers (or Gary Kubiak for that matter) in terms of their character or quailty. Both of them are good men and I'm speaking only about them professionally.

Dom Capers was a good man, a quality defensive coordinator, and a poor NFL head coach who stuck by his assistant coaches to the bitter end. That "bitter end" was destined to happen because Dom didn't understand that you have to accept sometimes that something isn't working. You have to send a defensive coordinator or assistant coach packing. That he's your friend is beside the point. that you believed in him is beside the point. When something isn't working it isn't working and you must accept that and correct it.

Dom wouldn't, or couldn't do this and I'm starting to suspect that Gary Kubiak is going to have a similar problem.

Richard Smith's defense isn't working. Mike Sherman"s offense isn't working. A defense that can't put pressure on a QB is about as useless as an offense that can't run the football. Some thoughts I have on this and some decisions that have to be made follow;

Richard Smith and his "so-unpredictable-we-don't-even-know-what-we're-doing" defense has got to go regardless of how supposedly "aggressive" they think they are. They stink. You can point to the job they did yesterday and say they did a good job considering if you like. I still see a team that had almost 40 points hung on them yesterday. I still see a team that couldn't make a stop when it absolutely had to have one.

Do we need personnel? Of course we do. Can this bunch play good enough to win? Yes, they can. Are the people responsible for teaching them a defensive system and getting them prepared to play getting this done? No they're not. There are quality defensive coordinators out there. Go get one and stop wasting the limited number of years that these first round linemen have with Richard Smith's defensive quackery.

Mike Sherman needs to move on and he probably will following this season (if he's smart and we're lucky). His ideas and Gary Kubiaks ideas do not seem to be compatible and our offense looks like the kind of "Frankenstein Monster" you would expect to see when you patch together two different philosophies like that. Anyone who can't see that this isn't working is deluding themselves and I'd like to think that Bob McNair is experienced enough now to not need four years to connect these dots all on his own. I'd like to think that Rick Smith is intelligent enough to not make him do that.

Again here on this side of the ball the question remains "Do we need personnel?" and again the answer is "Yes, of course we do". The problem here is that you can't definitively say that this bunch can play better than they are today. I think we're getting the best we can out of these guys and I'm afraid that's not saying much.

Chester Pitts is having maybe his worst season as a Texan (excluding his rookie year) while Fred Weary is having maybe his best season. Our Guards are schizophrenic but then again maybe this is due to some of the turnstiles and weaklings surrounding them.

Eric Winston is doing well but he plays RT like a LT if you get my meaning. He plays it a bit too "refined" to truly be effective. "The caveman" is going to have to get a little more primitive over there if he's really going to make his mark and lock that spot down for a decade.

Ephraim Salaam can play maybe a half of football and then he's done.. He looks like a kid with asthma in the second half of just about every game he plays. By the fourth quarter the Texans should be bringing in Jordan Black and sitting Salaam down. No, Black isn't better than Salaam. He is better than an exhausted, winded Salaam however.

Mike Flannagan does not belong in the NFL today. He would be just settling into "Life After Football" if it wasn't for his connectiion with Mike Sherman. If we had a better option I think he'd be out there. We need players badly.

Even accepting the fact that our current healthy players are in many ways lacking it's difficult to imagine that they couldn't play better than we've seen them play over the last 5 weeks. I want to know what kind of lineman are we looking for in this Green Denver Bay Zone Power Blocking "thing" that we're doing here. We seem to have run all of the "Herman Munster" types out of town and tried to go with guys with better feet but we also seem to be trying to run the ball in a manner that to me at least implies the need for those big ol' road grader types. We don't have any of those guys.

What exactly are we trying to do there? Can anyone tell me what kind of linemen we are in pursuit of and more importantly why those linemen don't seem to fit what we're trying to do?

Beyond the offensive line and their mixed up "Shermubiak" system is the Texans running game. The Ahman Green signing has proven about as effective as the Mike Flannagan signing. This team is like some kind of great running back graveyard where careers either never happen or go to die. Green is on empty and while he didn't sign a cap-killer deal he is money down the drain for nothing in return (again). I was terrified of this when we signed him and take no pleasure in appearing to have been right about being worried.

We need a running back in the worst possible way. When you lack an offensive line that can open holes that anybody can run through you need to fix that and of course doing so takes time. One thing you can do with a single draft pick (assuming one is available) is grab a running back who can create something on his own. Our line sucks and our running game suffers because of it. We all know that. If Adrian Peterson had fallen to us and been picked instead of Amobi Okoye does anyone really believe he'd be missing the creases like Gado does or running into the backs of his blockers like Dayne does?

We need a real running back. Not a re-tread or somebody's backup who everyone suspects might be the real deal. We need a young, fast, strong running back who can break open his own daylight from time to time. We need to replace the entire backfield. Ron Dayne and Samkon Gado don't belong in the NFL. Ahman Green is probably a season away from retirement and nobody should be expecting him to carry any kind of load.

Some things have gone very right this year on offense. QB, WR, and TE are all "done". We have our players there. We are "improved". Coach Kubiak can't ignore what isn't right though. He can't pull a Dom Capers on us and spend four years telling us that Richard Smith is a quality defensive coordinator. He can't let Mike Sherman tinker on offense for four years trying to make pieces from two different puzzles fit together. We just saw that with his predecessor and Texans fans won't sit still for it again. This year will be a .500 or so campaign but once it's over and we've staggered into another long off-season then the Texans need to make some moves and not just to bring in more talent.

HoustonFrog
10-22-2007, 11:28 AM
"You Must Spread Some Rep Around"

Well thought out post. I have nothing much to add except I'll be severely disappointed if our draft and FA doesn't revolve around RB( a keeper, not the retread), CB and O-line. Sounds easy but we need to find someone to make the D-line work because the investment is already too high. We need a RB we can say.."this is the guy" and not a bunch of guys that hit the hole 5 seconds after it is swallowed back up. Dunta needs help. The O-line is patchwork.

nunusguy
10-22-2007, 11:29 AM
McNair got too close to his QB, and kept him around much longer than he should have. Lets hope he doesn't do the same thing with Kubiak if a change needs to made, and maybe sooner than later.
Marty Schottenheimer anyone ?

The1ApplePie
10-22-2007, 11:30 AM
I think Kubes made the mistake of thinking his system would make crap RBs great like in Denver, but didn't bring the cheap-shot blocking scheme with him, which was the key to Denver's offense.

eriadoc
10-22-2007, 12:11 PM
I think a lot of coaches go out and try to find personnel to run their system, instead of adapting their system to the personnel that they have. That and the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" syndrome seem to be the downfall of most coaches that fail. Sometimes a big dose of common sense would do these coaches some good.

Vinny
10-22-2007, 12:15 PM
I just posted this somewhere else...but it's worth stating here in this thread.

defense was awful...the more I watch mario the more he becomes JAG. the "just a guys" on a team should not take up too much cap room or you end up with a team building on a foundation of sand (think of the David Carr offense). The Titans were without their top WR, their top RB, and their starting QB. I've mentioned many times that it's hard to score TD's without your elite skill guys and it applies to the teams not named the Texans also.

and the offense...oye...all that bad offense in the first half was just a matter of three things...lack of talent, bad coaching/schemes (Kubiak outcoached), and losing the battle in the trenches. All that said...when the offense gives your team the lead with under a min left and you are kicking off to a team that doesn't have their game breaker RB in, their starting QB in (Collins is a lifetime 55% passer), and without their best WR....you should win. Until teams have to worry about our pass rush we will not be a good team in the NFL. The first thing I asked myself on that long pass to win the game was where the F was the safety?

nunusguy
10-22-2007, 12:29 PM
the more I watch mario the more he becomes JAG. the "just a guys" on a team should not take up too much cap room or you end up with a team building on a foundation of sand (think of the David Carr offense).
I seriously doubt that Mario (and his agent, and his family, etc.) would be a party to renegotiating his contract downward to where the ownership and coachs would feel comfortable with his salary/cap-amount, if it comes to that. And cutting Mario outright would dump onto McNairs lap the mother-of-all PR problems.
How much time do they give him to mature/develope ? What to do ?

Vinny
10-22-2007, 12:50 PM
I seriously doubt that Mario (and his agent, and his family, etc.) would be a party to renegotiating his contract downward to where the ownership and coachs would feel comfortable with his salary/cap-amount, if it comes to that. And cutting Mario outright would dump onto McNairs lap the mother-of-all PR problems.
How much time do they give him to mature/develope ? What to do ?

that's the problem with drafting workout warriors...you hope they develop and if they don't, you end up with a workout warrior. There isn't much you can do.

YoungTexanFan
10-22-2007, 12:57 PM
I seriously doubt that Mario (and his agent, and his family, etc.) would be a party to renegotiating his contract downward to where the ownership and coachs would feel comfortable with his salary/cap-amount, if it comes to that. And cutting Mario outright would dump onto McNairs lap the mother-of-all PR problems.
How much time do they give him to mature/develope ? What to do ?


He has serious potential even still. His physical ability is too much to let go this early in his career. But he is playing like he did in college. He plays well against the crappy teams, and does nothing against the "good" teams. He lacks a "go to move" as well as the ability to use more than one or two moves per game. I blame a lot of this on the coaching he has recieved, but even still, he should be able to pick some stuff up along the way in the NFL, especially when what he has been doing hasn't been working.

Leahmic223
10-22-2007, 12:59 PM
that's the problem with drafting workout warriors...you hope they develop and if they don't, you end up with a workout warrior. There isn't much you can do.

Mario hasn't had the time to develop. I don't think is has been 3 seasons yet, so it is still unfair to label him a bust.

YoungTexanFan
10-22-2007, 01:00 PM
McNair got too close to his QB, and kept him around much longer than he should have. Lets hope he doesn't do the same thing with Kubiak if a change needs to made, and maybe sooner than later.
Marty Schottenheimer anyone ?

Doesn't Marty control the defense mostly, and run a 3-4? or am I completely off base on both those assumptions. I thought Marty was a great coach, and that our team has a lot of the same makeup as SD does, but Marty was able to bring it out in the regular season. However, if he does run a 3-4 like I think, we have shifted our personel to a 4-3, and while we could adapt some players, it wouldn't be worth it. Also, I doubt Marty settles for anything less than HC, because if I'm a GM with a losing team, he is one of the first guys I go after in the offseason.

HoustonFrog
10-22-2007, 01:03 PM
He has serious potential even still. His physical ability is too much to let go this early in his career. But he is playing like he did in college. He plays well against the crappy teams, and does nothing against the "good" teams. He lacks a "go to move" as well as the ability to use more than one or two moves per game. I blame a lot of this on the coaching he has recieved, but even still, he should be able to pick some stuff up along the way in the NFL, especially when what he has been doing hasn't been working.

I look at it this way...when you are superior physically you can get away with athletic ability alone and overpower competition in high school and college. When you play people on your own level, you either need a better motor or better technique. Mario got away with padding stats by beating on the sisters of the poor in college but got shut down when playing similar competition. In the pros almost every player is a great athlete in some shape or form, but you really need the motor and technique. You'd think what you said is right and he'd pick something up.

Vinny
10-22-2007, 01:03 PM
He has serious potential even still. His physical ability is too much to let go this early in his career. But he is playing like he did in college. He plays well against the crappy teams, and does nothing against the "good" teams. He lacks a "go to move" as well as the ability to use more than one or two moves per game. I blame a lot of this on the coaching he has recieved, but even still, he should be able to pick some stuff up along the way in the NFL, especially when what he has been doing hasn't been working.
He beat up guys who didn't have the physical ability to stay with him. You don't find those matchups in the NFL too often.

What does "serious potential" mean if you have no football skill or instinct for the game? Do you remember when that wrestler named Brock Lesnar worked out for the Vikings? He is everything you want when looking for "serious potential" in an athlete in a sport such as football. He couldn't overcome his lack of instinct, football smarts, and ability to harness all that potential when dealing with NFL veterans. For all his immense physical ability guys with lesser potential whipped his ass all the time.

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nfl/2004/0628/photo/e_lesnarfb_hi.jpg

bckey
10-22-2007, 01:07 PM
Herv your post sums up everything I have been thinking about the Texans. Just a flat out spot on great post.

I couldn't believe the way they played those first 3 quarters. I paid good money for a parking pass, tickets, hotel, food, and gas to drive up to Houston to watch that pathetic performance. 3rd game I have been to this year so the cost adds up. All I ask in return is put forth your best effort to win. Play hard for 4 quarters. Get more than 25 yards of offense in a half. At least more yards than penalty yards. And please quit letting scrub qbs look like Peyton Manning against us. I don't want to go back to the days where our team didn't even look like an NFL team. Please no!

Where is the team that won in Carolina?

YoungTexanFan
10-22-2007, 01:08 PM
He beat up guys who didn't have the physical ability to stay with him. You don't find those matchups in the NFL too often.

What does "serious potential" mean if you have no football skill or instinct for the game? Do you remember when that wrestler named Brock Lesnar worked out for the Vikings? He is everything you want when looking for "serious potential" in an athlete in a sport such as football. He couldn't overcome his lack of instinct, football smarts, and ability to harness all that potential when dealing with NFL veterans. For all his immense physical ability guys with lesser potential whipped his ass all the time.

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nfl/2004/0628/photo/e_lesnarfb_hi.jpg

This is essientially what I was getting at. By "serious potential", I mean that he has enough physical gifts to overcome some of his inabilities, and some time left to learn some things. He will never produce similar to DeMeco, but he will always have the chance to destroy a OT based on his physical gifts. I don't think Mario will ever be a Peppers, but I think he can be a pretty solid guy who averages about 8 sacks a season.

Porky
10-22-2007, 01:17 PM
Too bad Mario doesn't get paid by the number of benchpress reps or his vertical. He would be an all-pro in those areas. :gun:

Double Barrel
10-22-2007, 01:26 PM
Great post, Herv! :thumbup

Mario hasn't had the time to develop. I don't think is has been 3 seasons yet, so it is still unfair to label him a bust.

How much time should we give him to at least show some of that almighty "potential" we keep hearing about? idonno:

While I will not label him a 'bust' at this point, I do have to admit that his radioactivity is starting to be noticed on the bustometer readings. Cook or get the heck out of the kitchen, IMO. Waiting five years for a player to realize his "potential" should have been a lesson learned on this team already.

Vinny
10-22-2007, 01:27 PM
This is essientially what I was getting at. By "serious potential", I mean that he has enough physical gifts to overcome some of his inabilities, and some time left to learn some things. He will never produce similar to DeMeco, but he will always have the chance to destroy a OT based on his physical gifts. I don't think Mario will ever be a Peppers, but I think he can be a pretty solid guy who averages about 8 sacks a season.you are living in a dreamworld if you think that Mario will ever "destroy" NFL OT's with his physical gifts. Most OT's "get destroyed" because they can't handle guys with great technique. Little bitty DE's like Freeney will always rush the passer better than physical freaks like Mario who don't seem to be able to get off blocks once OT's get their hands on him...most of that is technique and attitude.

CoastalTexan
10-22-2007, 01:30 PM
I was noticing that the Titans QB would drop back and the ball would be gone before a pass rush could occur. Then I was watching other games in the day and the QB would have to look for an open receiver. I think some of the blame for the lack of pass rush is on the secondary/linebackers who arn't covering.

Hervoyel
10-22-2007, 01:36 PM
I was noticing that the Titans QB would drop back and the ball would be gone before a pass rush could occur. Then I was watching other games in the day and the QB would have to look for an open receiver. I think some of the blame for the lack of pass rush is on the secondary/linebackers who arn't covering.

I think we often see Texans CB's playing far back from the LOS and I know that at least a couple of times this season we've had guys like Clark covering people that they were clearly incapable of handling. There's a thread in here asking if Robinson is our only DB and it might be reasonable to ask if DeMeco Ryans is our only LB as well. Not that Greenwood hasn't been playing well this year or that other DB's haven't had their moments. No team is made up entirely of Pro Bowl players but if you're talking about the Texans defense you've got Ryans and Robinson and they're about your only real "cream of the crop" kind of guys. Amobi is a "someday maybe, we hope" as is Mario. Travis is a "no sign of being a force yet".

I'd say on those short drop-quick pass plays the DB's and LB's are at least as much at fault as the pressure from the line. I didn't see the game yesterday so I have to take your word for it that those made up a big part of the Titans offense. If so then that's relevent.

powda
10-22-2007, 02:35 PM
i've not posted in a very very long time ---- but make no mistake ---- i lurk here regularly be it october or may. --- well done on the thread opening post. and ur aggrivation with the team bleeds through in your words. trust me, im right there with ya.

i've notice a couple of things...

this team has the same problem it always has -------- the offensive line.

walter payton coulda been behind that line and done about as well.

we need a left tackle --- the same as we did in year one.
(salamm may be having a rough year but he is what he is -- a quality reserve at the twilight of his carrer. in all fairness to him his competition has been killer in damn near every game)

we need a young up and comming center...someone who makes the right adjustments and solidifies the line as a whole. getting a rush from the edge dosent bother me nearly as much as getting one in the middle of the line. flannigan has got to go and mckinney cant be counted on to come back at full health. even if mckinney does come back good as new ---- hes never been better then average.

needless to say we need a young running back... you saw what i did when green went down. chris taylor cant be counted on and dayne has no buisness making a check. someone has to be in the wings to spell green and to step in when green gets hurt...(and make no mistake, he will get hurt again).

deffensivley

1st.

the playcalling has been miserable for 1 huge reason. faggins. if u send a house blitz faggins gets put on an island. is that what u want? faggins is our biggest liability and everyone knows it. im glad to see bennett on the field because i want to know if hes the solution before we get to the offseason.

before you criticize richard smith remember he has only 1 cb ... safeties who wouldnt start for any other team and an anemic pass rush. if he plays off or "soft" at least the other team has a chance to shoot itself in the foot. blitz and faggins gets an interference call or gets beat.

defensively this offseason i want at least 1 new safety (free).

i want a new cb opposite d-rob if bennet is not the guy for the job.

and i want to jumpstart the deffensive line by finding a replacement for weaver. his production has yielded nothing. at least i can make the arrgument his linemates havent performed because their young and learning.

honestly i dont care how we get these players or in what order --- how much we pay them or any of that bs. what i do care about is a team that plays respectable football win or lose. what i care about is the ribbing i get at work from co-workers who happen to be cowboy fans. what i care about is how much time i spend i front of the tv on my day off watching a team that may or may not show up.

the loss to tennesse didnt bother me as much as most people for 1 reason. we showed a pulse. our team has been comatose since the atlanta game. its a pretty bad state of affairs when its only october and im already looking forward to free agency and the draft.

dickieb
10-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Mike Sherman needs to move on and he probably will following this season (if he's smart and we're lucky). His ideas and Gary Kubiaks ideas do not seem to be compatible and our offense looks like the kind of "Frankenstein Monster" you would expect to see when you patch together two different philosophies like that. Anyone who can't see that this isn't working is deluding themselves and I'd like to think that Bob McNair is experienced enough now to not need four years to connect these dots all on his own. I'd like to think that Rick Smith is intelligent enough to not make him do that.

Great post Herv! I almost started a thread about the dueling banjos in our coaching staff. It is definately an ugly monster. Everyone knows and can see are running game is in absolute shambles. I think it has to do with this two headed concept in our coaching staff. Cats and dogs living together. It is on offense with Kubiak and Sherman and on defense with Richard Smith and Frank Bush. Too top heavy, if it isn't working Kubiak has to #1 realize it and #2 DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I'm not oppsed to going to 1 blocking scheme until we get it right, this hybrid idea is not working on either side of the ball. Kubiak needs to say "Yeah I respect your input but I have decided that we will run it this way." Let's go Kubes - make the call, please!

Honoring Earl 34
10-22-2007, 02:44 PM
you are living in a dreamworld if you think that Mario will ever "destroy" NFL OT's with his physical gifts. Most OT's "get destroyed" because they can't handle guys with great technique. Little bitty DE's like Freeney will always rush the passer better than physical freaks like Mario who don't seem to be able to get off blocks once OT's get their hands on him...most of that is technique and attitude.

We might have been laughed off the stage but we should have taken Nick Mangold with the #1 and then Elvis Dumervill in the 3rd .

Leahmic223
10-22-2007, 03:32 PM
Great post, Herv! :thumbup



How much time should we give him to at least show some of that almighty "potential" we keep hearing about? idonno:

While I will not label him a 'bust' at this point, I do have to admit that his radioactivity is starting to be noticed on the bustometer readings. Cook or get the heck out of the kitchen, IMO. Waiting five years for a player to realize his "potential" should have been a lesson learned on this team already.

So he's never showed that potential now? He's never showed one flash now is what you guys are saying?

Short Memory I guess. Look at a month ago everyone was psyched about Mario, we start to lose and its gone now.

If you are going to label Mario a bust right now you might as well label everyone we passed on to get him a bust as well. That means Reggie, Ferguson, and VY the other 3 guys on our radar at the time.

SuperDan
10-22-2007, 03:40 PM
Fantastic post, Herv. Rep for you. I think you hit the nail on the head on many topics.

Specifically in regards to the offensive scheme, the contrast in styles of play between Kubiak and Sherman is really starting to rear its ugly head. I am curious as to why this staff believes the hybrid scheme they employ is best for this team. Do they believe it suits the personnel or that it is schematically the best option to complement the passing game...or both? Or is it an ego thing between the two coaches? I don't profess to be an expert in the x's and o's of football, I merely draw conclusions as objectively as possible. This one has be baffled though.

TexansSeminole
10-22-2007, 04:58 PM
Great Post.

Richard Smith and his "so-unpredictable-we-don't-even-know-what-we're-doing" defense has got to go regardless of how supposedly "aggressive" they think they are. They stink. You can point to the job they did yesterday and say they did a good job considering if you like. I still see a team that had almost 40 points hung on them yesterday. I still see a team that couldn't make a stop when it absolutely had to have one.

Richard Smith has not had alot to work with but he has been a pretty bad play caller this season. If your secondary has trouble covering why blitz and leave wide open receivers. I have seen so many Richard Smith obvious blitz's that are very easily read or a screen play has already been called. We do not seem to successfully disguise coverages much, or move around before the line of scrimmage as to give the offense something to think about. These things seem to be coaching problems.

Even accepting the fact that our current healthy players are in many ways lacking it's difficult to imagine that they couldn't play better than we've seen them play over the last 5 weeks. I want to know what kind of lineman are we looking for in this Green Denver Bay Zone Power Blocking "thing" that we're doing here. We seem to have run all of the "Herman Munster" types out of town and tried to go with guys with better feet but we also seem to be trying to run the ball in a manner that to me at least implies the need for those big ol' road grader types. We don't have any of those guys.

What exactly are we trying to do there? Can anyone tell me what kind of linemen we are in pursuit of and more importantly why those linemen don't seem to fit what we're trying to do?

I agree that Kubiak needs to bring someone else in here with a more familiar system to him. The system overall seems to have flashes of success but overall does not seem to have consistancy on either running or passing.


We need a real running back. Not a re-tread or somebody's backup who everyone suspects might be the real deal. We need a young, fast, strong running back who can break open his own daylight from time to time. We need to replace the entire backfield. Ron Dayne and Samkon Gado don't belong in the NFL. Ahman Green is probably a season away from retirement and nobody should be expecting him to carry any kind of load.

I think alot of our problems boil down to this. We need a good young running back...with fewer miles on his engine and alot of drive in his legs. Gado looks to be a larger back but he does not drive his legs to get yards at all. He has bad vision and hits the whole with limited explosiveness. Ron Dayne looks used up is far too slow to play in the NFL. Ahman Green has good vision but has lost a step especially because he was injured early in the season. He has to rely on good blocking to be as successful as we expect him to be, considering the backup RBs we have, and we are not blocking well.

Double Barrel
10-22-2007, 05:32 PM
So he's never showed that potential now? He's never showed one flash now is what you guys are saying?

Short Memory I guess. Look at a month ago everyone was psyched about Mario, we start to lose and its gone now.

If you are going to label Mario a bust right now you might as well label everyone we passed on to get him a bust as well. That means Reggie, Ferguson, and VY the other 3 guys on our radar at the time.

Thanks for using your amazing powers of assumption and generalizing my point.

I never called Mario a bust.

But as a first overall pick, I'd like to see some - heck ANY - consistency from the guy.

How long does the first game's performance carry him this season? How long do the handful of moments he's had keep us from objectively analyzing his game?

Seriously, he's got the protective homer bubble around him, so I'm just curious how long we have to wait until we can be disappointed by his non-impacting play.

Maybe if we give him four years + $8 million signing bonus for an extra year....yeah, that's it, we just give him tiiiiiime. :yawn:

hollywood_texan
10-22-2007, 05:38 PM
Thanks for using your amazing powers of assumption and generalizing my point.

I never called Mario a bust.

But as a first overall pick, I'd like to see some - heck ANY - consistency from the guy.

How long does the first game's performance carry him this season? How long do the handful of moments he's had keep us from objectively analyzing his game?

Seriously, he's got the protective homer bubble around him, so I'm just curious how long we have to wait until we can be disappointed by his non-impacting play.

Maybe if we give him four years + $8 million signing bonus for an extra year....yeah, that's it, we just give him tiiiiiime. :yawn:

I tried to give you some rep, but I gotta spread some more around first.

Hear ya Bro! Loud and clear...

I am purposely trying to not comment about all this stuff and the current state of the Texans.

Typically, I am like a broken record player in my posts. You guys know what I am going to say anyway...

Honoring Earl 34
10-22-2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks for using your amazing powers of assumption and generalizing my point.

I never called Mario a bust.

But as a first overall pick, I'd like to see some - heck ANY - consistency from the guy.

How long does the first game's performance carry him this season? How long do the handful of moments he's had keep us from objectively analyzing his game?

Seriously, he's got the protective homer bubble around him, so I'm just curious how long we have to wait until we can be disappointed by his non-impacting play.

Maybe if we give him four years + $8 million signing bonus for an extra year....yeah, that's it, we just give him tiiiiiime. :yawn:


I think Mario was drafted to get the QB in critical situations ... that's what the great ones do .

I think we need to go back to the 3-4 defense because we have two 3-4 ends .

The Dream
10-22-2007, 05:45 PM
Kubiak just needs to realize that this team isn't the broncos....we have no terrell davis in the backfield, so we must establish ourselves with the pass first.....

Double Barrel
10-22-2007, 05:47 PM
I think Mario was drafted to get the QB in critical situations ... that's what the great ones do .


Like when your team rallies from a 32-7 deficit to score 29 points in the fourth to gain a lead with less than a minute on the clock?

yeah, that's when I would like to see ANY of our three 1st round picks on the defensive line do ANYTHING other than dance with offensive linemen.

We are drafting way too high and paying way too much to fail to put any pressure on a 55% career completions backup QB who is winding up to throw a bomb.

JMO

Honoring Earl 34
10-22-2007, 05:51 PM
Like when your team rallies from a 32-7 deficit to score 29 points in the fourth to gain a lead with less than a minute on the clock?

yeah, that's when I would like to see ANY of our three 1st round picks on the defensive line do ANYTHING other than dance with offensive linemen.

We are drafting way too high and paying way too much to fail to put any pressure on a 55% career completions backup QB who is winding up to throw a bomb.

JMO

As I was beating the hell out of a Bud Light bottle on an empty seat , screaming , and begging to get the QB , I was thinking this would be a good time for a Mario sighting .

Vinny
10-22-2007, 06:02 PM
Kubiak just needs to realize that this team isn't the broncos....we have no terrell davis in the backfield, so we must establish ourselves with the pass first.....I guess you didn't notice he opened the game in a spread offense with no back huh?

real
10-22-2007, 06:07 PM
I think Mario was drafted to get the QB in critical situations ... that's what the great ones do .

I think we need to go back to the 3-4 defense because we have two 3-4 ends .

With no real 3-4 DT...

ChildressTitanMan
10-22-2007, 06:08 PM
It's interesting seeing a discussion like this on a rival board.

At GoTitans we've debated this back & forth over the last year or so as to whether the Head Coach is to blame for the problems or his assistants or even the players on the field.

When a team is doing well the Head Coach tends to get the credit.When there are problems we as fans like to blame the Defensive or Offensive co-ordinators.

The Titans D is playing great this year but not much has changed in terms of personnel. Only one change in the front 7. Jim Schwartz deserves the credit even though his years of poor performances means I still would like to see him go.

When we had a lead in the 4th qtr last night he reverted to his prevent slow death play calling. When the Texans had momentum it was very hard for the D to go back up a gear & do anything about it.

Great play by the Texans & poor coaching/play calling by the Titans.

Mario Williams is a solid player but he isn't a great one. Had he not been a #1 pick the finger would not be pointing at him like it continues to do. Ryans & Okoye were better picks but that's the way it goes in football. There are more bad picks than good ones. The pieces are coming together in Houston even if it's not as fast as fans hoped.

Many NFL coaches seem to prefer playing experienced players who are known quantities over talented rookies who may be better but not as consistent. All NFL coaches are loyal to their assistants even if it infuriates the fans. Assistants rarely move to another team unless they are poached to a better job because of their success.

There are 32 teams each year dipping into a talent pool that isn't large enough to accommodate them all. The end result is that one year a guys system can look awful but the next a few additions can make it look great again.

I don't like it as a divisional rival but I see a lot of positives in the Texans.

Honoring Earl 34
10-22-2007, 06:25 PM
With no real 3-4 DT...

We'll draft one in the 1st round .

BSofA04
10-22-2007, 06:39 PM
Great post Herv! You're pretty much on target with a lot of your topics. The only thing that I want to see is the Texans pick up a 1st Rd. LT. Salaam isn't the answer and I'm not going to hold my breath on Spencer coming back as the same player he was before. With McKinney coming back at center next year (or possibly White), LT is my #1 critical need.

The Dream
10-22-2007, 06:51 PM
We are drafting way too high and paying way too much to fail to put any pressure on a 55% career completions backup QB who is winding up to throw a bomb

agreed......right now I'm thinking that the reason the Texans have had a bad organization thus far is mainly because of the decisions made by the F.O. and coaching staff.......how much have the texans set themselves back because of bad draft picks and bad free agent signings.....it not only slows down the development of a good football team, but it also hurts your pocket books to the point where if there was talent out there on the market you couldn't get it, because of all the money you have wrapped up in the current crap out there on the field every sunday.


I guess you didn't notice he opened the game in a spread offense with no back huh?

only to dump it off for 2 yard passes, and at times during the game he still tried to establish the run eventhough it just wasn't there.

Thorn
10-22-2007, 06:58 PM
You can run to set up the passing game, or you can pass to set up the running game. Either works if you have the right personel. We don't have the right personel to set up a running game either way.

Whether or not Kubiak is a better coach or not only future history will tell. Capers had four years, so given that let's compare Kubiak and the Texans in another 2 1/2 years.

In the meantime we have a fairly mediocre team and I don't think the best coach in the world could get us into the playoffs with our current personel.

Runner
10-22-2007, 07:51 PM
Mario hasn't had the time to develop. I don't think is has been 3 seasons yet, so it is still unfair to label him a bust.

We do that to players making $500K all the time. It's bass ackwards the way the big money players get all the time in the world to develop and the projects get half a season.

Leahmic223
10-22-2007, 11:47 PM
Thanks for using your amazing powers of assumption and generalizing my point.

I never called Mario a bust.

But as a first overall pick, I'd like to see some - heck ANY - consistency from the guy.

How long does the first game's performance carry him this season? How long do the handful of moments he's had keep us from objectively analyzing his game?

Seriously, he's got the protective homer bubble around him, so I'm just curious how long we have to wait until we can be disappointed by his non-impacting play.

Maybe if we give him four years + $8 million signing bonus for an extra year....yeah, that's it, we just give him tiiiiiime. :yawn:


What type of consistency? Like I said, Reggie, VY, and many other rookies from his class have yet to show they can produce game in game out, that is ALWAYS the problem with young players.

Also, I guess no one noticed Mario had 7 tackles and 3 hurries yesterday, yes such a HORRIBLE game. Man Mario what were doing out there, nothing!?!?

Like when your team rallies from a 32-7 deficit to score 29 points in the fourth to gain a lead with less than a minute on the clock?

yeah, that's when I would like to see ANY of our three 1st round picks on the defensive line do ANYTHING other than dance with offensive linemen.

We are drafting way too high and paying way too much to fail to put any pressure on a 55% career completions backup QB who is winding up to throw a bomb.

JMO

No, lets forget that Dunta didn't step up when we needed him, even he admitted to that.

Maddict5
10-23-2007, 08:07 AM
Travis is a "no sign of being a force yet".


i said it on sunday but its worth repeating-i think hes showing signs


Like when your team rallies from a 32-7 deficit to score 29 points in the fourth to gain a lead with less than a minute on the clock?

yeah, that's when I would like to see ANY of our three 1st round picks on the defensive line do ANYTHING other than dance with offensive linemen.

We are drafting way too high and paying way too much to fail to put any pressure on a 55% career completions backup QB who is winding up to throw a bomb.

i know mario didnt play great but i think you guys have unrealistic expectations- yes mario should be an impact player but to expect him to just blast by an nfl T during a specific (important) play.. look at what he did on that play.. you could see he was desperate to make a play too.. he had the T bullrushed back beside collins, if he doesnt get rid of it so quickly (<3 secs), its a sack.. collins makes a very good throw and the wr makes a nice play which dunta needs to (should've) make (and who cares about collins career stats?? on that play he makes a nice play).. thats it- (sh)it happens



and the offense...oye...all that bad offense in the first half was just a matter of three things...lack of talent, bad coaching/schemes (Kubiak outcoached), and losing the battle in the trenches. All that said...when the offense gives your team the lead with under a min left and you are kicking off to a team that doesn't have their game breaker RB in, their starting QB in (Collins is a lifetime 55% passer), and without their best WR....you should win. Until teams have to worry about our pass rush we will not be a good team in the NFL. The first thing I asked myself on that long pass to win the game was where the F was the safety?

the safety was (rightfully) giving petey cover.. the other guy was playing the short man (we blitzed 2).. our best cb was 1-on-1 with roydell williams and should've made a play given that collins had to get rid of the ball quickly and he had position.. it was one play that 9/10 is an incompletion/interception.. no need for all the added drama (best rb, wr lol- were we missing our 'best' safety?)


anyway i think most people in this thread are overreacting to a tough loss.. so i gues im still just sipping the kool-aid

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 09:43 AM
I'm a little worried that in todays paper Kubiak said Mario played well. This has to be his way of coddling the guy. He them throws out a backhanded cutdown by saying he needs to be an Pro-Bowler for years though. Build him up Kubes....that or you are crazy. Mario played "well" if well means non-existent and "another gear" means 1st.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5236568.html

Texans coach Gary Kubiak said Mario Williams played well against the Titans, but the team needs the second-year player to take his game to another level. Williams had four tackles Sunday.

I think for our football team to reach another level of play, he's got to continue to find another gear," Kubiak said Monday. "Is his gear good now? Yeah, it's pretty darn good, but we need Mario to become a great, great player — a Pro Bowl player for a long, long time for our organization.So we're going to keep pushing him. Was his effort pretty good yesterday? Did he play well? Yes, he did."

Texans_Chick
10-23-2007, 10:44 AM
I'm a little worried that in todays paper Kubiak said Mario played well. This has to be his way of coddling the guy. He them throws out a backhanded cutdown by saying he needs to be an Pro-Bowler for years though. Build him up Kubes....that or you are crazy. Mario played "well" if well means non-existent and "another gear" means 1st.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5236568.html

Here's the complete quote to put it in context:

(on the play of DE Mario Williams) “He played pretty good yesterday; he graded out well. I think he had seven tackles. He had three quarterback pressures. We continue to try to get more out of him. I say that, and when I say what I mean is that I think for our football team to reach another level of play, he’s got to continue to find another gear. Is his gear good now? Yeah, it’s pretty darn good, but we need Mario to become a great, great player – a Pro Bowl player for a long, long time for our organization. So we’re going to keep pushing him. Was his effort pretty good yesterday? Did he play well? Yes, he did.”

Kubiak at his press conferences is asked about various players. He answers the questions. They asked about Williams so that is his answer. I don't think he is trying to puff on this point.

As for the people suggesting that Mario Williams was just a combine phenom, that is revisionist history.

He was a great player at NC State according to the people who watched him play, was named team MVP on a defense that basically carried that team because the offense was so bad. He had career and junior year statistics that were very similar to Julius Peppers, a guy who basically played against the same sort of competition in the ACC.

Mario said after the draft that the team that spoke to him the most pre-draft and seemed the most interested in having him play there was Saints with the second pick, and if he had gone there, nobody would have been talking bust on the day he was drafted.

I think that Kubiak plays it pretty straight when it comes to saying what he is thinking about players. Maybe not so forthcoming as it relates to injuries.

Texans_Chick
10-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Some things have gone very right this year on offense. QB, WR, and TE are all "done". We have our players there. We are "improved". Coach Kubiak can't ignore what isn't right though. He can't pull a Dom Capers on us and spend four years telling us that Richard Smith is a quality defensive coordinator. He can't let Mike Sherman tinker on offense for four years trying to make pieces from two different puzzles fit together.


Notably QB, WR, and TE are all handled in the way that the Denver system does it. The TE coach is close to Kubiak, and Shanny jr, worked with both the WR and QBs and knows the Denver system better than just about anyone other than his dad.

The offensive line needs a philosophy to believe and to acquire players to suit. That has been an ongoing issue since the beginning of the franchise.

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 11:58 AM
Here's the complete quote to put it in context:



Kubiak at his press conferences is asked about various players. He answers the questions. They asked about Williams so that is his answer. I don't think he is trying to puff on this point.

As for the people suggesting that Mario Williams was just a combine phenom, that is revisionist history.

He was a great player at NC State according to the people who watched him play, was named team MVP on a defense that basically carried that team because the offense was so bad. He had career and junior year statistics that were very similar to Julius Peppers, a guy who basically played against the same sort of competition in the ACC.

Mario said after the draft that the team that spoke to him the most pre-draft and seemed the most interested in having him play there was Saints with the second pick, and if he had gone there, nobody would have been talking bust on the day he was drafted.

I think that Kubiak plays it pretty straight when it comes to saying what he is thinking about players. Maybe not so forthcoming as it relates to injuries.

TC, I wasn't trying to take the quote out of context because he obviously was saying he can play better. But I still think, when watching the game that the guy disappears. I don't see what Kubiak sees..a guy playing in a "pretty good gear." I've never called Mario a straight out "workout warrior" but I do think his college stats or relative. He beefed up against some college teams that were weak and disappeared against some stronger teams. That seems like what we hear about here. That's my beef. Show me more technique that you can get around these linemen and aren't being stalemated. I just keep hearing Kubes say he is making plays and doing things that we can't see and I don't see it.

Hervoyel
10-23-2007, 01:20 PM
My hope at this point is that somebody on the DL (Amobi I'm looking at you right now) blows up big and starts to take more than his share of attention to stop. Then Mario and Travis start to look better as a result.

I know it's a pretty weak spin on "First overall pick of the 2006 draft" but it's all I got at this point. It's clear to me after just under 1.5 years that Mario isn't going to start throwing guys aside like rag dolls and eating quarterbacks for lunch on a consistent basis. Ultimately I think that all you have to do is hit a home run on one of those picks and the other two will look better for playing on the same line.

If Mario does then suddenly "click" on and become better than good then I think we have a truly scary defensive line on our hands. I just don't think the odds are so good.

I just wish the Texans had done so many things differently

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 01:50 PM
My hope at this point is that somebody on the DL (Amobi I'm looking at you right now) blows up big and starts to take more than his share of attention to stop. Then Mario and Travis start to look better as a result.

I know it's a pretty weak spin on "First overall pick of the 2006 draft" but it's all I got at this point. It's clear to me after just under 1.5 years that Mario isn't going to start throwing guys aside like rag dolls and eating quarterbacks for lunch on a consistent basis. Ultimately I think that all you have to do is hit a home run on one of those picks and the other two will look better for playing on the same line.

If Mario does then suddenly "click" on and become better than good then I think we have a truly scary defensive line on our hands. I just don't think the odds are so good.

I just wish the Texans had done so many things differently

Very good points. I agree. One of the only ways I see him start making consistent plays is if we get others around him making plays and then he is able to get some better matchups and to feed off the lines improvement. I see Reggie Nelson last night and he was one I really wanted this past draft. Though I'm very happy with Okoye. I just like playmaking guys in the defensive backfield.

real
10-23-2007, 01:59 PM
I was big on Nelson as well...

I really dislike the fact that he ended up in Jacksonvillage.

Leahmic223
10-23-2007, 02:00 PM
TC, I wasn't trying to take the quote out of context because he obviously was saying he can play better. But I still think, when watching the game that the guy disappears. I don't see what Kubiak sees..a guy playing in a "pretty good gear." I've never called Mario a straight out "workout warrior" but I do think his college stats or relative. He beefed up against some college teams that were weak and disappeared against some stronger teams. That seems like what we hear about here. That's my beef. Show me more technique that you can get around these linemen and aren't being stalemated. I just keep hearing Kubes say he is making plays and doing things that we can't see and I don't see it.

I agree here, he disappears some plays and sometimes drives. Also he seems to have one move. Watch Freeney, watch any elite DE and they have a few moves they go to. Mario seems to have a bullrush...thats about it, and its not that effective. I can see if it was working for him but it isn't. Hopefully he will get it down, but I don't feel like he's going to be playing like he is now for the next 10 years.

badboy
10-23-2007, 02:25 PM
I am certainly no expert but does it seem that Mario should stay lower on his rushes? Seems as though he gets "stood up" and loses his power. That would be ok if he was running around the blocker but not going through the blocker, if that makes sense.

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 02:36 PM
I am certainly no expert but does it seem that Mario should stay lower on his rushes? Seems as though he gets "stood up" and loses his power. That would be ok if he was running around the blocker but not going through the blocker, if that makes sense.

Funny you say that because here is one draft preview

http://www.nflfans.com/x/2006/showplayer.php?key=Mario%20Williams*

Cons: Has not picked up all the skills needed to be the among the best in the NFL. Needs to play lower or will be out-leveraged by strong offensive players. Doesn't translate as well as a 3-4 DE despite his size. Not as good as he needs to be against the run.

real
10-23-2007, 02:40 PM
How long does it take a football player to fire out low ?

Honoring Earl 34
10-23-2007, 03:12 PM
Notably QB, WR, and TE are all handled in the way that the Denver system does it. The TE coach is close to Kubiak, and Shanny jr, worked with both the WR and QBs and knows the Denver system better than just about anyone other than his dad.

The offensive line needs a philosophy to believe and to acquire players to suit. That has been an ongoing issue since the beginning of the franchise.

Maybe small OLs work well in Denver because of the altitude . Maybe once the big DL get winded , the small guys out quick them and have more stamina ... just a thought .

I want a nasty , physical OL that can kick your butt no matter what they're playing . That's something that's hard to defend and demoralizing ... we've seen it .

Being that Jacksonville and the Titans are in our conference ( that's 4 games a year ) , we better adapt to playing against big , aggressive DLs . I think this means we need Spencer to come back as a gaurd and draft a LT . Now we also need a center but you can only do so much in an offseason .

Vinny
10-23-2007, 03:17 PM
Very good points. I agree. One of the only ways I see him start making consistent plays is if we get others around him making plays and then he is able to get some better matchups and to feed off the lines improvement. I see Reggie Nelson last night and he was one I really wanted this past draft. Though I'm very happy with Okoye. I just like playmaking guys in the defensive backfield.
I think Nelson was taken off of our draft board due to character concerns....supposedly we take more players off our draft board than any team in the NFL.

Vinny
10-23-2007, 03:20 PM
As for the people suggesting that Mario Williams was just a combine phenom, that is revisionist history.


actually I think it is more revisionist to say he wasn't a workout warrior. He got most of his stats against powerhouses like Wake Forest and the little sisters of the poor. Ever notice his College highlight flicks are mainly only against like 2 teams?

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 03:20 PM
I think Nelson was taken off of our draft board due to character concerns....supposedly we take more players off our draft board than any team in the NFL.

That is a good thing to look at but I wouldn't mind a little nasty/edge here and there.

actually I think it is more revisionist to say he wasn't a workout warrior. He got most of his stats against powerhouses like Wake Forest and the little sisters of the poor.

That's exactly what I said above. He'd go games with nothing and all of sudden have a 4 sack game. Its funny if you read his year by year stats it is the same type thing. In 2004 he went the first 5 games without a sack and then got one and had 3, but he did it against FSU. But it was still telling that he wasn't posting numbers for games and then would have a big one.

Same draft preview as above

http://www.nflfans.com/x/2006/showpl...io%20Williams*

In 2004: Notched his first sack of the season in the loss at North Carolina, the fifth game of the season ... After that contest, tallied five more, including three versus Florida State

Marcus
10-23-2007, 03:23 PM
I just wish the Texans had done so many things differently

Be very honest with me and tell me if you're not saying this out of a little bit of hindsight.

Honoring Earl 34
10-23-2007, 03:26 PM
I think Nelson was taken off of our draft board due to character concerns....supposedly we take more players off our draft board than any team in the NFL.

I wonder if Bob and Drayton have contest on who's got the nicest guys .

I know TO , pacman , vick , and Tank are not guys you would want .

Double Barrel
10-23-2007, 03:31 PM
I agree here, he disappears some plays and sometimes drives. Also he seems to have one move. Watch Freeney, watch any elite DE and they have a few moves they go to. Mario seems to have a bullrush...thats about it, and its not that effective. I can see if it was working for him but it isn't. Hopefully he will get it down, but I don't feel like he's going to be playing like he is now for the next 10 years.

Wait, you're talking about CONSISTENCY here, right?

I could've sworn I've heard that before.... :um:

But as a first overall pick, I'd like to see some - heck ANY - consistency from the guy.

Let me give you a nice response to your 'Mario bashing'...errrrr...analysis:

What type of consistency? Like I said, Reggie, VY, and many other rookies from his class have yet to show they can produce game in game out, that is ALWAYS the problem with young players.

Also, I guess no one noticed Mario had 7 tackles and 3 hurries yesterday, yes such a HORRIBLE game. Man Mario what were doing out there, nothing!?!?

No, lets forget that Dunta didn't step up when we needed him, even he admitted to that.

Which is it with you? Mario needs to be more consistent, or he did a fantastic job? idonno:

P.S. D.Rob was as close to covering the WR as you could get. He just got beat. It happens.

But if Collins had been PASS RUSHED at all, he would not have had time to set up that bomb in the first place. Hmmmm, whose job is it to PASS RUSH?

And I could care less about what Reggie or VY does in relation to Mario. They are not Texans and have no bearing on my mindset (I was a D'Brick guy).

i know mario didnt play great but i think you guys have unrealistic expectations- yes mario should be an impact player but to expect him to just blast by an nfl T during a specific (important) play.. look at what he did on that play.. you could see he was desperate to make a play too.. he had the T bullrushed back beside collins, if he doesnt get rid of it so quickly (<3 secs), its a sack.. collins makes a very good throw and the wr makes a nice play which dunta needs to (should've) make (and who cares about collins career stats?? on that play he makes a nice play).. thats it- (sh)it happens

the safety was (rightfully) giving petey cover.. the other guy was playing the short man (we blitzed 2).. our best cb was 1-on-1 with roydell williams and should've made a play given that collins had to get rid of the ball quickly and he had position.. it was one play that 9/10 is an incompletion/interception.. no need for all the added drama (best rb, wr lol- were we missing our 'best' safety?)

anyway i think most people in this thread are overreacting to a tough loss.. so i gues im still just sipping the kool-aid

You are probably right about people reacting to a tough loss.

But with regards to your first statement regarding "unrealistic expectations", what should we expect from THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS on our defensive line? We used high picks because we want a pass rush, yet it isn't happening. I think we have a right to EXPECT SOMETHING, and if it is unrealistic then I guess we should just golf clap for our defense and expect nothing from them. They can live up to those expectations.

Vinny
10-23-2007, 03:31 PM
Be very honest with me and tell me if you're not saying this out of a little bit of hindsight.

Marcus, when people express regret about the past...it's always hindsight. You can't not use hindsight when expressing regret about past mistakes. Some of your posts weird me out.

Vinny
10-23-2007, 03:34 PM
the safety was (rightfully) giving petey cover.. the other guy was playing the short man (we blitzed 2).. our best cb was 1-on-1 with roydell williams and should've made a play given that collins had to get rid of the ball quickly and he had position.. it was one play that 9/10 is an incompletion/interception.. no need for all the added drama (best rb, wr lol- were we missing our 'best' safety?)


anyway i think most people in this thread are overreacting to a tough loss.. so i gues im still just sipping the kool-aid
we have more than one S on the field...and we should have been in at least a cover2 or even a cover3 in that situation. One deep doesn't cut it.

Hervoyel
10-23-2007, 03:44 PM
Be very honest with me and tell me if you're not saying this out of a little bit of hindsight.

Of course some hindsight is involved in that statement. I can't deny it and wouldn't dare do so. I did think the following at the time the events occured and spoke about it on the message board when they happened:

I thought the Texans were foolish to try and build around a rookie QB in 2002. I wanted them to draft Julius Peppers.

I complained loudly over the waste of a draft pick on Dave Ragone. Complete waste of a 3rd rounder right there and I've recently started to wonder if Casserly knew the Carr pick was a bad move even then. What other possible excuse could anyone offer for wasting a 3 on a QB one year after taking another QB first overall when drafting for a team as thin as the Texans? Casserly (and possibly Dom) took one year of David Carr and had an "Oh Crap!" moment (I suspect) and followed it with Dave Ragone. If they'd gone after one too soon it would have been admitting that they screwed up in 2002. Too late and they'd have a guy who was more likely to be useless. Ragone was the insurance policy. Then McNair fell in love with Carr and locked him into the starters role until he could no longer deny that David was incapable of doing it.

I raged over the trade that sent picks to Tennessee and got us Jason Babin. Those were 13 ridiculously expensive sacks there.

I raged again over the selection of Travis Johnson instead of Derrick Johnson the next year.

This past off-season I knew deep down in my gut (and thought it was obvious) that Ahman Green stood a strong chance of being on empty and I said as much. Here we are at 3-4 and averaging 70 something yards a game. Ahman Green is no more effective than Vernand Morency was before he was traded away for a guy who splits time with a FB because he's not ready to play when his number is called.

I've been wrong plenty too but I think that I'm just one of many people that this team has left scratching their heads year after year.

Vinny
10-23-2007, 04:26 PM
But with regards to your first statement regarding "unrealistic expectations", what should we expect from THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS on our defensive line? We used high picks because we want a pass rush, yet it isn't happening. I think we have a right to EXPECT SOMETHING, and if it is unrealistic then I guess we should just golf clap for our defense and expect nothing from them. They can live up to those expectations.
The Washington Redskins have 4 first round picks in their secondary and it is dominant...it's the strength of the team. That's what loading up one position group is supposed to look like. I don't think anyone can say our D-line is dominant and the strength of our team.

HOU-TEX
10-23-2007, 04:49 PM
The Washington Redskins have 4 first round picks in their secondary and it is dominant...it's the strength of the team. That's what loading up one position group is supposed to look like. I don't think anyone can say our D-line is dominant and the strength of our team.

They also have a familiar face coaching their defense. Gregg Williams has always gotten his defenses in the top ten in the league. I'd take Williams in a heartbeat.

I don't think our players are being put in a situation to succeed. Sure, we can rag on them for bad play, but in the end, Richard Smith is the anchor taking this defense down to the bottom.:pirate:

hollywood_texan
10-23-2007, 04:49 PM
I complained loudly over the waste of a draft pick on Dave Ragone. Complete waste of a 3rd rounder right there and I've recently started to wonder if Casserly knew the Carr pick was a bad move even then. What other possible excuse could anyone offer for wasting a 3 on a QB one year after taking another QB first overall when drafting for a team as thin as the Texans? Casserly (and possibly Dom) took one year of David Carr and had an "Oh Crap!" moment (I suspect) and followed it with Dave Ragone. If they'd gone after one too soon it would have been admitting that they screwed up in 2002. Too late and they'd have a guy who was more likely to be useless. Ragone was the insurance policy. Then McNair fell in love with Carr and locked him into the starters role until he could no longer deny that David was incapable of doing it.



The Ragone and Henson picks were purely trade bait/commodity picks.

Casserly it just stupid, which is why he doesn't even do commentary for the NFL from what I can see.

Where is this guy?

Vinny
10-23-2007, 04:53 PM
They also have a familiar face coaching their defense. Gregg Williams has always gotten his defenses in the top ten in the league. I'd take Williams in a heartbeat.

I don't think our players are being put in a situation to succeed. Sure, we can rag on them for bad play, but in the end, Richard Smith is the anchor taking this defense down to the bottom.:pirate:
Coach Gibbs made him back off of his attacking style of defense since they were giving up too many big plays...he has been forced to play more cover2 and they don't blitz as much as Williams likes and it turns out the Skins defense is playing much better this year than in years past. Personally I think Williams does too many unsound things...but Gibbs has been good for him. Frankly I think Jeff Fisher was the main reason Williams was such a hot DC over in Titan land. He has never quite had the success as he had with Fisher but he took enough from him (Fishers system) to get a huge contract (or two).

TexansSeminole
10-23-2007, 06:23 PM
I was big on Nelson as well...

I really dislike the fact that he ended up in Jacksonvillage.

He is such a good safety. He would have done wonders for our team but I couldn't imagine how our DLine would be playing without Amobi...I am guessing most of us would be pretty mad about it.

Leahmic223
10-23-2007, 06:33 PM
Wait, you're talking about CONSISTENCY here, right?

I could've sworn I've heard that before.... :um:



Let me give you a nice response to your 'Mario bashing'...errrrr...analysis:



Which is it with you? Mario needs to be more consistent, or he did a fantastic job? idonno:

P.S. D.Rob was as close to covering the WR as you could get. He just got beat. It happens.

But if Collins had been PASS RUSHED at all, he would not have had time to set up that bomb in the first place. Hmmmm, whose job is it to PASS RUSH?

And I could care less about what Reggie or VY does in relation to Mario. They are not Texans and have no bearing on my mindset (I was a D'Brick guy).



You are probably right about people reacting to a tough loss.

But with regards to your first statement regarding "unrealistic expectations", what should we expect from THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS on our defensive line? We used high picks because we want a pass rush, yet it isn't happening. I think we have a right to EXPECT SOMETHING, and if it is unrealistic then I guess we should just golf clap for our defense and expect nothing from them. They can live up to those expectations.

Ummm...consistency between games, not plays. Mario isn't consistent between games, he has a good game then goes on to have 3 bad games then has a good game...that is the consistency I was speaking of not plays or drives.

Also Drob just getting beat...it happens? I hope he isn't thinking like that "Hey he just made a better catch is all." no he was in position to hit the ball but he didn't see it, it was more of a blind swat he did at it, he covered him well but it could have been covered better.

So when I said Mario needs to be more consistent I am talking about between games, but he still didn't have a bad game last sunday.

TexansSeminole
10-23-2007, 06:33 PM
I think Nelson was taken off of our draft board due to character concerns....supposedly we take more players off our draft board than any team in the NFL.

I hope this is not true because they could be taking guys off like Ray Lewis. Sure, if you sit down and talk to Ray Lewis the year he came out of Miami and you tried to get an insight on how the man thinks and acts (his character) you would probably think he was a crazy. But that crazyness feeds some of these players. That's how Ray Ray does his thing. He is the type of guy that your not quite sure what he is saying on the football field but your pretty sure it involves crushing the other team's player's ribs. We don't seem to have that guy AT ALL.

Where is our killer instinct? We need some mean Mofos. Mario, DeMeco, and Okoye all seem to be kinda soft IMO. I don't mean soft like you think I just mean they don't have that killer instinct. That "Oh you want to run for 5 yards how about I nail your running back to the ground" guy. I mean it works for DeMeco (and it seems to work for Amobi). But every team needs that Energizer. That guy that comes in and just lays a lickin down on someone with emotion and fires the whole team up.

There are guys that I just think make EVERYONE play better because of their emotion. Guys like Brian Dawkins and Shawn Merriman.

P.S. Anyone play Madden 08 on PS3. I am not sure if it is just on PS3 but if you start the game and let the vidoes play Brian Dawkins gives his team a speech before a playoff game that truly makes you pumped even if your not a Eagles fan.

He says something along the lines of "Can you feel that??? Can you feel that thing that's beatin in your dog gon chest right now? Can you feel that? Can you feel what's about to happen on this field man?" Actually here is the link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=VuDFf2EeQM4)

TexansSeminole
10-23-2007, 06:56 PM
he covered him well but it could have been covered better.

Isn't this always the case when a catch is made?

Leahmic223
10-23-2007, 07:14 PM
Isn't this always the case when a catch is made?

Yeah I would say so. If a guy is making a catch over you of course you could have covered better. He caught over Dunta, Dunta made it a hard catch, but I felt that it looked like he wasn't going for the ball or he didn't see it and made a blind swat. If he saw it he would have made a play on it of course.

I'm not going to get on Dunta too much though, he's a great player. I just think its not fair to blame Mario and the pass rush everytime someone on the opposing offense makes a catch.

hollywood_texan
10-23-2007, 07:29 PM
I hope this is not true because they could be taking guys off like Ray Lewis. Sure, if you sit down and talk to Ray Lewis the year he came out of Miami and you tried to get an insight on how the man thinks and acts (his character) you would probably think he was a crazy. But that crazyness feeds some of these players. That's how Ray Ray does his thing. He is the type of guy that your not quite sure what he is saying on the football field but your pretty sure it involves crushing the other team's player's ribs. We don't seem to have that guy AT ALL.

Where is our killer instinct? We need some mean Mofos. Mario, DeMeco, and Okoye all seem to be kinda soft IMO. I don't mean soft like you think I just mean they don't have that killer instinct. That "Oh you want to run for 5 yards how about I nail your running back to the ground" guy. I mean it works for DeMeco (and it seems to work for Amobi). But every team needs that Energizer. That guy that comes in and just lays a lickin down on someone with emotion and fires the whole team up.

There are guys that I just think make EVERYONE play better because of their emotion. Guys like Brian Dawkins and Shawn Merriman.

P.S. Anyone play Madden 08 on PS3. I am not sure if it is just on PS3 but if you start the game and let the vidoes play Brian Dawkins gives his team a speech before a playoff game that truly makes you pumped even if your not a Eagles fan.

He says something along the lines of "Can you feel that??? Can you feel that thing that's beatin in your dog gon chest right now? Can you feel that? Can you feel what's about to happen on this field man?" Actually here is the link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=VuDFf2EeQM4)

I believe this is the biggest problem the Texans have and it starts with McNair.

Certain guys are not considered due to character issues. As long as someone in the organization isn't breaking laws and hangs with consenting adults, I could care less what they do. The point of an NFL team is to win football games.

Also, this criteria is applied in the coaching staff and front office.

Plain and simple, it should be about winning. Being nice has nothing to do with it.

The Texans want to win football games, but they wanna do certain things first that have nothing to do with winning football games and that actually makes it more difficult win.

Six years in and this team still doesn't have an identity...

joedinkle
10-23-2007, 07:31 PM
2 things.

1 - How did a thread about Kubiak turn into a MW thread? I swear he's is our new scapegoat(Carr being the old one.)

2 - Has no one seen Mario's spin move? He's used that a few times, and got a QB hit on Collins with that move. Let the man develop.

TexansSeminole
10-23-2007, 07:36 PM
Yeah I would say so. If a guy is making a catch over you of course you could have covered better. He caught over Dunta, Dunta made it a hard catch, but I felt that it looked like he wasn't going for the ball or he didn't see it and made a blind swat. If he saw it he would have made a play on it of course.I just think its not fair to blame Mario and the pass rush everytime someone on the opposing offense makes a catch.

Ever try to play Cornerback? I am pretty sure DRob was in man coverage so we will go over that a bit. Your first physical job is usually to backpedal, unless your jamming in which case you still backpedal a bit. In this case, DRob's next job is to turn and run with the WR because of course the WR is going down the field. I am going to get real simple here because I think this argument is quite simple to diffuse. Once you've turned your back to the QB you can no longer see him. DRob must find the ball and stay in stride with his reciever in order to make this play. DRob turns and runs with his receiver. He then realizes that the receiver has a step and could make a catch if the ball were coming his way. He notices the receiver locating the ball and tries to close the space between him and the defender. He has no time to turn and find the ball. If he were to have turned the ball would have probably passed over his head and the receiver would have caught it and continued to run it down the sidelines. Sometimes the CB knows he can't turn around without losing his man or risk giving up a big play, therefore he tries to make a "blind-swat" as you call it and makes sure he secures the tackle and prevents the WR from getting additional yards.

On your main point:
I just think its not fair to blame Mario and the pass rush everytime someone on the opposing offense makes a catch.

Bottom Line: We don't get nearly enough pressure on the QB. We have 3 first round picks in the DL and we are still forced to call hard blitzes (that are obviously read) in order to get consistent pressure. I don't know who you think is blaming Mario...but he deserves some blame at this point. I don't expect him to be a pro bowler this year. But even if he doesn't get sacks I want to see him in the QBs face or bothering the QB. I've yet to see him consistently bother any QB besides Culpepper really. I'm not even sure it was Mario or his knee that was bothering Culpepper.

HoustonFrog
10-23-2007, 07:58 PM
2 things.

1 - How did a thread about Kubiak turn into a MW thread? I swear he's is our new scapegoat(Carr being the old one.)
2 - Has no one seen Mario's spin move? He's used that a few times, and got a QB hit on Collins with that move. Let the man develop.

That would probably be on me because I started the day saying Kubiak was still coddling Mario, saying he was making plays but needed to become a consistent pro-bowler. I said this was crazy and I didn't see what he saw. TC answered and then we all joined in. I'll take this one.:shades:

Leahmic223
10-23-2007, 10:48 PM
Ever try to play Cornerback? I am pretty sure DRob was in man coverage so we will go over that a bit. Your first physical job is usually to backpedal, unless your jamming in which case you still backpedal a bit. In this case, DRob's next job is to turn and run with the WR because of course the WR is going down the field. I am going to get real simple here because I think this argument is quite simple to diffuse. Once you've turned your back to the QB you can no longer see him. DRob must find the ball and stay in stride with his reciever in order to make this play. DRob turns and runs with his receiver. He then realizes that the receiver has a step and could make a catch if the ball were coming his way. He notices the receiver locating the ball and tries to close the space between him and the defender. He has no time to turn and find the ball. If he were to have turned the ball would have probably passed over his head and the receiver would have caught it and continued to run it down the sidelines. Sometimes the CB knows he can't turn around without losing his man or risk giving up a big play, therefore he tries to make a "blind-swat" as you call it and makes sure he secures the tackle and prevents the WR from getting additional yards.

On your main point:


Bottom Line: We don't get nearly enough pressure on the QB. We have 3 first round picks in the DL and we are still forced to call hard blitzes (that are obviously read) in order to get consistent pressure. I don't know who you think is blaming Mario...but he deserves some blame at this point. I don't expect him to be a pro bowler this year. But even if he doesn't get sacks I want to see him in the QBs face or bothering the QB. I've yet to see him consistently bother any QB besides Culpepper really. I'm not even sure it was Mario or his knee that was bothering Culpepper.

All that explanation over whether he could have covered him better? That is what it was about, if he could have covered him any better, any time the WR catches a ball the corner could have covered better unless its not man, and that looked like man for sure. He even admitted he could have done better.

As for you don't know who you think is blaming Mario...look through the post, was it you? I didn't say it was you. Someone said it was the Dlines fault(and Mario's) that we lost on that last drive, that is why DRob came up. You really didn't need to type all that up, I am aware of all that except he could have covered him better since he made the catch. Also he didn't secure the tackle because Roydell got a few yards after that.

HOU-TEX
10-24-2007, 10:13 AM
2 things.

1 - How did a thread about Kubiak turn into a MW thread? I swear he's is our new scapegoat(Carr being the old one.)

2 - Has no one seen Mario's spin move? He's used that a few times, and got a QB hit on Collins with that move. Let the man develop.

Yeah, that spin move is awesome! If he used that move every time he'd be leading the league in sacks. :rolleyes:


In case someone actually thought I was serious.
:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Maddict5
10-24-2007, 11:13 AM
But if Collins had been PASS RUSHED at all, he would not have had time to set up that bomb in the first place. Hmmmm, whose job is it to PASS RUSH?

You are probably right about people reacting to a tough loss.

But with regards to your first statement regarding "unrealistic expectations", what should we expect from THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS on our defensive line? We used high picks because we want a pass rush, yet it isn't happening. I think we have a right to EXPECT SOMETHING, and if it is unrealistic then I guess we should just golf clap for our defense and expect nothing from them. They can live up to those expectations.

i dont know why you kepp ignoring it but there was a pass rush.. collins got it out quickly.. i see so called great d-lines every week that are supposed to clobber o-lines but for the most part it only happens when the coaches call blitzes (look at the giants-falcs 2 weeks ago.. osi and strahan (or anybody else) werent getting near to harrington despite being matched up against young tackles until the giants started dialling up blitzes)..

our guys are young and will hopefully get better- we knew the way we draft mightn't yield immediate results but now that thats happeniung i dont know why everybody is acting like its some big surprise (and yeah i know i sound like an apologist but sorry if im ready to give them some time before declaring BUST status)

we have more than one S on the field...and we should have been in at least a cover2 or even a cover3 in that situation. One deep doesn't cut it.

yeah ive seen enough of our oh-so-effective prevent shell thank you very much.. this is just blatant second-guessing... blitzing qb's like collins is the best form of defence.. there was pressure, collins has to try and squeeze one in and the wr makes a play that dunta needs to make..btw what good would a deep safety have done anyway- dunta had as good position as you're likely to get and it was a jumpball, if it had been a double move that had left the wr in acres of space deep i might agree with you but i dont see it, looks to me like you're complaining for the sake of it

bottomline we made them earn their fg instead of letting collins dink and dunk us down the field with easy passes, that would've pissed me off waay more

Double Barrel
10-24-2007, 12:24 PM
So when I said Mario needs to be more consistent I am talking about between games, but he still didn't have a bad game last sunday.

That's not what you said:

he disappears some plays and sometimes drives

But whatever. :rolleyes:

I just think its not fair to blame Mario and the pass rush everytime someone on the opposing offense makes a catch.

yeah, why expect a pass rush from a line loaded with first round picks. I guess having any expectations for these guys should not be an option.

My point is that great defensive lines step up when required to step up. Obviously, the problem is that we do not have a "great" defensive line right now in spite of heavy investment.

i dont know why you kepp ignoring it but there was a pass rush.. collins got it out quickly.. i see so called great d-lines every week that are supposed to clobber o-lines but for the most part it only happens when the coaches call blitzes (look at the giants-falcs 2 weeks ago.. osi and strahan (or anybody else) werent getting near to harrington despite being matched up against young tackles until the giants started dialling up blitzes)..

I'm not ignoring anything. I've watched the game four times now (once in person and three in replay), and we did not generate much of a pass rush on Collins all game. We were always a second too late.

Make excuses for these guys all you want, but the fact remains that we have a mediocre line after drafting high for them. Maybe they develop into a force in the coming years, but they have a long way to go. Nobody fears them.

Obviously there are other factors, ranging from bad coaching calls to our offense coughing up the ball 6 times and constantly putting them in bad field position. So I'm not just pointing the finger at one aspect without an understanding of the big picture. It's just disappointing to see our team rally and our entire defensive unit fail when they could have sealed the deal.

No biggie, I no longer expect anything this season. Hope we can at least match our record from 2006 at this point. :howdy:

Yankee_In_TX
10-24-2007, 12:27 PM
On thread title and without reading the thread - I have a Kubiak complaint.

why is he SO insistent on "using the run to set up the pass?"

Our O-Line can't open holes, and we don't have a RB fast enough to break outside or who can create holes on his own.

What is so wrong with using the screen pass or option to set up the run?!?!?!?

Leahmic223
10-24-2007, 12:40 PM
That's not what you said:



But whatever. :rolleyes:



yeah, why expect a pass rush from a line loaded with first round picks. I guess having any expectations for these guys should not be an option.

My point is that great defensive lines step up when required to step up. Obviously, the problem is that we do not have a "great" defensive line right now in spite of heavy investment.



I'm not ignoring anything. I've watched the game four times now (once in person and three in replay), and we did not generate much of a pass rush on Collins all game. We were always a second too late.

Make excuses for these guys all you want, but the fact remains that we have a mediocre line after drafting high for them. Maybe they develop into a force in the coming years, but they have a long way to go. Nobody fears them.

Obviously there are other factors, ranging from bad coaching calls to our offense coughing up the ball 6 times and constantly putting them in bad field position. So I'm not just pointing the finger at one aspect without an understanding of the big picture. It's just disappointing to see our team rally and our entire defensive unit fail when they could have sealed the deal.

No biggie, I no longer expect anything this season. Hope we can at least match our record from 2006 at this point. :howdy:

Double read what I said BEFORE that.

"What type of consistency? Like I said, Reggie, VY, and many other rookies from his class have yet to show they can produce game in game out, that is ALWAYS the problem with young players."

Its not a contradicition to his in-game consistency because that has to do with his motor and him becoming a better player. As far as consistency between games its a problem a lot of young players have, most young players have this problem. VY could have a great passing day against the Saints...then the next game throw 3 INTs and throw for 30%...this isn't a problem for star players, this isn't a problem for Manning or Brady. They have a few bad games, but overall they produce and lead the NFL in stats. I compare VY to a star player because that is what he is supposed to become, but it isn't going to happen overnight. He may have the publcity of one, but he doesn't play like one right now.

Mario has this problem of consistency between games and IN GAMES. Don't tell me what I said because I have siad he isn't consistent between games always and that is to be expected from him(or should).

Now I agree he isn't consistent IN GAME and that has to do with how motivated he is, how much of a motor he has, stamina, and overall how good of a player he is. I remember the Giants game he had a monster first half, I was sure he was going to hurt Eli at the pace he was going...but apparantly something happened. Some suggest his foot started to wear down, but maybe the Giants adjusted? PRobably so.
DeMeco said Our Dline was doing good at the start of the season because no adjusted.

This is why Sophmore players have slumps, because teams know who they are now so they are going to adjust accodingly.

I am not saying you shouldn't expect our Dline to dominate. Go ahead expect what you want. But IMO You are expecting too much from 1st year and 2nd year guys no matter WHERE they were picked. They are human too, they have to have solid experience and learn form their mistakes and learn to adjust to the NFL before they start to produce.

I wonder, what exactly do you expect from our Dline this year? I expected the inconsistency, but I expected improvement and that is what is evident. No one sees the vast improvement? Its going to take time, you don't build great defenses and great line play in a year.

Maddict5
10-24-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm not ignoring anything. I've watched the game four times now (once in person and three in replay), and we did not generate much of a pass rush on Collins all game. We were always a second too late.

Make excuses for these guys all you want, but the fact remains that we have a mediocre line after drafting high for them. Maybe they develop into a force in the coming years, but they have a long way to go. Nobody fears them.

Obviously there are other factors, ranging from bad coaching calls to our offense coughing up the ball 6 times and constantly putting them in bad field position. So I'm not just pointing the finger at one aspect without an understanding of the big picture. It's just disappointing to see our team rally and our entire defensive unit fail when they could have sealed the deal.

No biggie, I no longer expect anything this season. Hope we can at least match our record from 2006 at this point. :howdy:

i was talking about that play specifically- we got pressure.. all game- not that much.. i agree with you though- il be pretty pissed if the line isnt top notch in at most two years time but right now it just doesnt surprise me that we are mediocre given what we knew about mario starting off (raw) and okoye needing time because of his age.. maybe i just have low expectations

Double Barrel
10-24-2007, 01:02 PM
I wonder, what exactly do you expect from our Dline this year? I expected the inconsistency, but I expected improvement and that is what is evident. No one sees the vast improvement? Its going to take time, you don't build great defenses and great line play in a year.

i was talking about that play specifically- we got pressure.. all game- not that much.. i agree with you though- il be pretty pissed if the line isnt top notch in at most two years time but right now it just doesnt surprise me that we are mediocre given what we knew about mario starting off (raw) and okoye needing time because of his age.. maybe i just have low expectations

Good posts, guys, and I appreciate the well thought out and respectful replies.

I don't necessarily disagree with y'all. I probably am expecting too much, and I even tried to keep myself prepared for .500 ball before the season started. This last game and Miami were examples of .500 ball...you win some and lose some in really close games.

It really is a team problem, because six turnovers is what it is. We had meltdowns in many aspects of the game, but still had heart enough to bring it to a chance to win at the end. So while there are no 'moral victories', I'm trying to keep a perspective that things are improving, however slow it might seem.

But thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It helps this fan get through the day. :cowboy1:

Hervoyel
10-24-2007, 01:38 PM
The thing about not getting much pressure on a QB for most of the day is that you allow him to get comfortable. When you do get pressure late in the game for instance when you absolutely must have a stop to win then he's not going to come unglued when he sees it. He's going to stand in there like the comfortable, confident QB he's become over four quarters of football and carve you up. We've seen Kerry Collins a few times and we have always been able to rattle him in our previous meetings. Then he starts coughing up picks like crazy. Collins can be rattled into bad decisions. It doesn't look like we did much of that Sunday.

threetoedpete
10-24-2007, 02:21 PM
Mario hasn't had the time to develop. I don't think is has been 3 seasons yet, so it is still unfair to label him a bust.

Let them rant. Pearls befor swine and all of that. The tallent on this team sucks. Has sucked for five years and will suck if they keep drafting skill guys over the line guys. And yes four first rounders on the d-line...with two of them busts. We don't have a peronel problem we have a tallent problem. Alway have. Wanna argue that TJ has had a geat season...well it took him three seasons to get here.

So Vinny you're sitting there in the seventh slot and the two LBs fall to you . You take to take the atlettic LB, or the football player? Do you draft Dan Conner over James Laurinaitis ?

Conner can be argued is the football player. Laurinaitis is clearly the better athlete, bigger faster, productive. You make the call Vinny. The only thing you all lack is a little paitince. And just for you Vinny...Tommy Harris is sucking big time the last four weeks. He's hurt just as Mario was last year.


Kubiakc has called Mario out. We'll see. Go ahead and eat the cap and cut him then. I'm sure Bud will be happy to pay the guy. I think you guys are just silly.

Leahmic223
10-24-2007, 03:03 PM
Good posts, guys, and I appreciate the well thought out and respectful replies.

I don't necessarily disagree with y'all. I probably am expecting too much, and I even tried to keep myself prepared for .500 ball before the season started. This last game and Miami were examples of .500 ball...you win some and lose some in really close games.

It really is a team problem, because six turnovers is what it is. We had meltdowns in many aspects of the game, but still had heart enough to bring it to a chance to win at the end. So while there are no 'moral victories', I'm trying to keep a perspective that things are improving, however slow it might seem.

But thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It helps this fan get through the day. :cowboy1:

I don't disagree with anyone that says Mario isn't doing well right now. I just feel that we have to give him time at least. A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario. I know you aren't one of the posters doing it. But I feel some are suggesting that since Mario is playing this way now that it will be like that for the rest of his career.

We'll see, and if he still is playing like a mediocre DE his 3rd and 4th season, I would begin to worry.

Thorn
10-24-2007, 03:07 PM
A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario.

And most especially since he played with bad feet all last year. This is really his first year being healthy and able to play.

HoustonFrog
10-24-2007, 03:15 PM
On thread title and without reading the thread - I have a Kubiak complaint.

why is he SO insistent on "using the run to set up the pass?"

Our O-Line can't open holes, and we don't have a RB fast enough to break outside or who can create holes on his own.

What is so wrong with using the screen pass or option to set up the run?!?!?!?

I thought that is what we were doing to start the year and right after AJ got hurt. Its lately I've noticed more of resorting to going back to Green to set up the pass. People know we have to air it out though. Despite some sloppy moments I think the passing game plans when we were out of backs and receivers was more potent then when we have guys healthy in the backfield. Sometimes forcing a hand helps see what works.

Fox
10-24-2007, 03:18 PM
I've seen some criticism of the play call on the game deciding play on the boards and in the papers, I don't think it was that bad. On the play, hindsight says it was the wrong call, but in retrospect until the moment Williams caught the ball it didn't look so bad, IMO.

We sent a little extra pressure at Collins and I think it was Maddox was collapsing the inside of the pocket. Collins stepped out of the pressure and made the throw down the sideline, he wasn't under intense pressure but if he'd waited another couple ticks he probably would've been. The ball's going to Roydell Williams, who doesn't even have a half step on Dunta Robinson, our #1 CB. Turns out Collins and Williams made a play, it was a near perfect throw and Williams makes a great catch on his inside shoulder. As a D coordinator, up to the moment Williams makes the catch I don't think you're too upset with the play call. Pressure was coming and the Titans receiver was blanketed with your best corner. As others have mentioned, my only question is what was Hutchins doing? I only saw it on TV so I don't know, maybe he was concentrated on a different Titans receiver, wouldn't surprise me that much. I'd figure they'd give Faggins or Bennett safety help before Robinson. Could the DL have come up with a huge sack and saved the day? Yea, but even the best pass rushing D's only average 3-4 sacks a game, the percentages don't bode well for one of those to occur on the game-deciding play. Could the secondary have played better and caused a coverage sack? Maybe if they somehow doubled every receiver, I didn't see any Titans receivers running free.

For the first 3 quarters of the game it's pretty obvious we were horribly out coached and out played. But for those last 50 seconds when we had the lead, I don't think our coaches made any egregious errors in judgment, I just think the Titans made a play and we didn't.

Double Barrel
10-24-2007, 03:35 PM
I don't disagree with anyone that says Mario isn't doing well right now. I just feel that we have to give him time at least. A season and a half isn't enough time to pass final judgement on Mario. I know you aren't one of the posters doing it. But I feel some are suggesting that since Mario is playing this way now that it will be like that for the rest of his career.

We'll see, and if he still is playing like a mediocre DE his 3rd and 4th season, I would begin to worry.

I think Mario will work out in the long run. I'm not predicting HoF or Pro Bowler, but I think he'll end up being a force when he figures out the position.

My rant is born of frustration. Our entire team seems to fall apart sometimes. This thread turned into a talk about our D, though, so that's why I was concentrating my thoughts.

We're ranked 20th against the run and have very little pass rush. We do not seem to be forcing turnovers and our coverage is suspect. In hindsight, it is amazing that they didn't break more when they kept bending.

The thing about not getting much pressure on a QB for most of the day is that you allow him to get comfortable. When you do get pressure late in the game for instance when you absolutely must have a stop to win then he's not going to come unglued when he sees it. He's going to stand in there like the comfortable, confident QB he's become over four quarters of football and carve you up. We've seen Kerry Collins a few times and we have always been able to rattle him in our previous meetings. Then he starts coughing up picks like crazy. Collins can be rattled into bad decisions. It doesn't look like we did much of that Sunday.

This is pretty much where I was going with it. Sack stats are not what this is about. It is the constant pressure on a QB that forces them into bad decisions and awkward passes. We just don't seem to collapse the pocket quick enough to rattle a QBs timing, and last game was no exception.

I probably drank too much 2-0 koolaide and let myself get out of a .500 mentality. So all of my thoughts are more a reflection of the letdown. I keep hoping we break the Houston jinx and win games like this one. I'll just have to keep on hoping, I guess.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 10:35 AM
Sack stats are not what this is about. It is the constant pressure on a QB that forces them into bad decisions and awkward passes. We just don't seem to collapse the pocket quick enough to rattle a QBs timing, and last game was no exception.

You should stick to your instincts. Your intincts tell you that the line hasn't played up to expectations and it is true. We don't get this kind of necessary pressure very often.

I don't understand why people want to act like Mario is bulletproof and can never be criticized. Also, why is it that if someone says that Mario hasn't played all that well this season people interpret it as Mario is a horrible football player and deserves to be cut from the team forever? Some of you are just plain football dumb (not talkin about you DB).

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 11:17 AM
This is why Sophmore players have slumps, because teams know who they are now so they are going to adjust accodingly.

I am not saying you shouldn't expect our Dline to dominate. Go ahead expect what you want. But IMO You are expecting too much from 1st year and 2nd year guys no matter WHERE they were picked. They are human too, they have to have solid experience and learn form their mistakes and learn to adjust to the NFL before they start to produce.

You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? Mario's stats from this year and last year seem to be pretty even. Where is this sophomore slump you were talking about? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Furthermore responding to the second statement I bolded in your post, Amobi has had no problem producing in the sack column as a defensive tackle. He seems to be producing without "learning to adjust to the NFL" or "solid experience" and he is 20 years old! Younger than me for christ sakes. What was your point again?

HoustonFrog
10-25-2007, 11:38 AM
You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Nice post. I agree. I don't think Mario is a bust or horrible or anything like that but I think you have to look at what he has done and compare it to others that are producing as rookies and this year and stop making excuses for guys. I'm not sure if it is the mentailty of the organization because of guys like Carr and what happened but there is this knee-jerk thing going on where there are excuses for everyone. I mean we had a rookie come in and be the leader of our defense. Look at the reactions between 2-0 and now. There is always this "wait and see" attitude. To me that is a loser mentality. I'm ready to win and I'm ready for guys we picked to produce. Injuries hurt but this pat on the butt and on your way little trooper attitude just irks me sometimes.

dtran04
10-25-2007, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately for Mario, all of this sack talk is probably getting to him. He constantly overruns plays and leaves his gap wide open. Last year, he was much better against the run.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 02:17 PM
Unfortunately for Mario, all of this sack talk is probably getting to him. He constantly overruns plays and leaves his gap wide open. Last year, he was much better against the run.

I think he is one of the best if not the best DE against the run to come out of that 2006 NFL draft, but the sacks will be how he can make a more explosive impact and will be how he is graded.

Last year I gave Mario the benifit of the doubt because of injury but this year I don't see much of an improvement. I thought I was going to see Mario get in the QBs face this year often enough to mess the QBs timing up, yet all I see from opposing QBs is rhythm when they play us.

Runner
10-25-2007, 05:06 PM
I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.

The1ApplePie
10-25-2007, 05:12 PM
Sometimes I wish Al Saunders had kissed Carr's ass as much as Kubiak did

Saunders + Reggie/Lynch + AJ + Quinn/Schaub = The New Greatest Show on Turf

MightyTExan
10-25-2007, 05:34 PM
This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job. Chris has gotten some snaps; he got some at the end of last week and will probably continue to get some snaps, but I think Mike’s played good enough for us to win and we’ve just all got to do a better job.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3836

Runner
10-25-2007, 05:41 PM
This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job.

I haven't seen that "In Kubes We trust" signature lately either. :)

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 05:45 PM
This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job. Chris has gotten some snaps; he got some at the end of last week and will probably continue to get some snaps, but I think Mike’s played good enough for us to win and we’ve just all got to do a better job.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3836


Translation: Chris White sucks more than Mike Flanagan.

Runner
10-25-2007, 05:46 PM
Translation: Chris White sucks more than Mike Flanagan.

Huh. Too bad they couldn't find anyone better than Flanagan in two years or White this year.

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 05:47 PM
You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? Mario's stats from this year and last year seem to be pretty even. Where is this sophomore slump you were talking about? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Furthermore responding to the second statement I bolded in your post, Amobi has had no problem producing in the sack column as a defensive tackle. He seems to be producing without "learning to adjust to the NFL" or "solid experience" and he is 20 years old! Younger than me for christ sakes. What was your point again?

What those guys have done is pointless because you have to give a guy 3 years to prove who they are. period. I don't care what those other guys are doing, nothing proves they will be better than Mario 3 years from now. I guess Michael Strahan was the worse DE coming out of his class right? I mean it took the guy 4 years to actually start producing.

AS for how come Anderson didn't take time...Dude came in on pass rushing situations FOR THE BEARS. Look at what he is doing now as a full time DE. Wembley is just a hell of a player, he's one of those rookies that comes in and plays. If I can recall correctly Mario had 10 more hurries than Anderson, which means Anderson benefits from playing on a great defense.

Also why don't you mention that Mario almost has double the tackles any of those guys have? Kiwanuka and Hali probably have more. Also most of those guys you have listed excluding Anderson, Wembley, Hali, and Elvis there have about the same numbers as Mario except that Mario gets more tackles.

There are many DEs in the NFL it took time for them to adjust. I can't believe I am saying this, you should know it takes time. There are guys like Peppers, Freeney, they just come out the gate swinging. They know, they get it right away. I mean Demeco just comes in here, produces he gets it. I am not going to say Okoye yet because he seems to be slowing down or something. It looks like Travis is starting to get it. Jason Taylor, it took the guy a few years, his second year he looked better than his 3rd year he didn't. His 4th year he started to produce consistently.

Also a lot of second year DEs get around 7 or 11 sacks...Mario has 9 more games, can we see how he finishes? If he does get 7 or more sacks than what is so wrong? I remember saying this exact same thing last year that is what worries me. I remember telling someone "There is still 8 more games, can he finish the season at least?" and that was his first year.

I predict he'll get abour 6 or 8 sacks total this year. For some people (not saying you) he needs about 20 to prove he's not a bust, but for me that is good enough.

As Thorn said, the guy played on one foot last year. No one hardly mentions that. This is the same injury that put that cowgirl player out for a about 4-5 weeks(What should I expect from a cowgirl? :shades: ). I think he finishes with some pretty good numbers, but unfortunately it will not keep some people off his back.

As mentioned in another post...the two guys picked after him are doing about the same as he is in their respective positions, yet they seem to get a pass everywhere and people say "You have to give them time." no one has ever been willing to give Mario that same time. Had he been picked by the Saints the outlook on him would have been completely different.

I really don't care that Mario has been picked over any of those guys. He still was the right pick. There are guys that have a fantastic first year and never continue up on it, there are guys who don't do squat their first few years than breakout...this is why you give a guy time. That is all. That has been it.

I still stand by my point. A season and a half is NOT enough time to pass final judgement on Mario Williams.

Honoring Earl 34
10-25-2007, 06:19 PM
I haven't seen that "In Kubes We trust" signature lately either. :)

If Kubiak was in a new version of Liar Liar ... what would he say .

Well number 58 there could'nt block a Texan cheerleader much less a DT . I guess Sherm needed friends around .

Our guard play ... well ... one wants to be a LT and must be trying to block the DE cause he sure ain't blocking the DT .

The other guard ... well .... we replaced him with our spare center .

I gotta tell ya , it's a damn good thing Matt gets rid of the ball quick ... of course we hipnotized him into thinking it was a hand grenade .

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 06:19 PM
What those guys have done is pointless because you have to give a guy 3 years to prove who they are. period. I don't care what those other guys are doing, nothing proves they will be better than Mario 3 years from now. I guess Michael Strahan was the worse DE coming out of his class right? I mean it took the guy 4 years to actually start producing.

I never said it was a final conclusion. I said that we expect more out of him due to the success of other defensive ends drafted in the same class. Because you were talking about giving players plenty of time to learn to adjust, I figured it was about time to show the successes of players that have had the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO ADJUST.

AS for how come Anderson didn't take time...Dude came in on pass rushing situations FOR THE BEARS. Look at what he is doing now as a full time DE. Wembley is just a hell of a player, he's one of those rookies that comes in and plays. If I can recall correctly Mario had 10 more hurries than Anderson, which means Anderson benefits from playing on a great defense.

As far as I am concerned he had a good year last year and he has more sacks than Mario this year in his FIRST year starting. Oh, I am looking, and it is obviously worse than Mario when it comes to pass rushing so I don't really know what point you make here.

Also why don't you mention that Mario almost has double the tackles any of those guys have? Kiwanuka and Hali probably have more. Also most of those guys you have listed excluding Anderson, Wembley, Hali, and Elvis there have about the same numbers as Mario except that Mario gets more tackles.

Because we were talking about getting to the quarterback. I clearly wrote "IN THE SACKS CATEGORY" in caps so you wouldn't make this argument, but I guess that was for nothing. Also, I wrote later in the thread that he is a good run stopper (I figured you'd realize that tackles has alot to do with that, guess I was wrong there again).

There are many DEs in the NFL it took time for them to adjust. I can't believe I am saying this, you should know it takes time. There are guys like Peppers, Freeney, they just come out the gate swinging. They know, they get it right away. I mean Demeco just comes in here, produces he gets it. I am not going to say Okoye yet because he seems to be slowing down or something. It looks like Travis is starting to get it. Jason Taylor, it took the guy a few years, his second year he looked better than his 3rd year he didn't. His 4th year he started to produce consistently.

This may be, but to act as if comparing him to other DE's in his same draft class and analyzing his play is wrong is wrong in itself. He may be a late bloomer in the NFL but as of right now he is "producing" less than most of the DE's drafted in 2006 in the first 4 rounds IN THE SACKS AND PRESSURE CATEGORY.

Also a lot of second year DEs get around 7 or 11 sacks...Mario has 9 more games, can we see how he finishes? If he does get 7 or more sacks than what is so wrong? I remember saying this exact same thing last year that is what worries me. I remember telling someone "There is still 8 more games, can he finish the season at least?" and that was his first year.

Also alot of soda's fizz when I open them. What kind of weird thing is that to say? Who care what "alot of second year DEs get"? I care about MARIO WILLIAMS and how MARIO WILLIAMS is producing compared to defensive ends in the same class, therefore determining his value AS A DEFENSIVE END of the 2006 draft class.

I predict he'll get abour 6 or 8 sacks total this year. For some people (not saying you) he needs about 20 to prove he's not a bust, but for me that is good enough.

I'd be happy with 7 sacks as well. Because I know he isn't a pure pass rusher. His strength is stopping the run. My MAIN problem here is that the reason given for choosing Mario Williams was that we needed a PASS RUSH. Not a defensive end that can stop the run, we got that in Anthony Weaver.

As Thorn said, the guy played on one foot last year. No one hardly mentions that. This is the same injury that put that cowgirl player out for a about 4-5 weeks(What should I expect from a cowgirl? :shades: ). I think he finishes with some pretty good numbers, but unfortunately it will not keep some people off his back.

I mentioned it later (later than the post you have quoted) in the thread. I said I gave him the benifit of the doubt last year but what is the difference between this year and last year? I don't see a huge difference like he all the sudden got the use of one of his feet back...as you so dramatically put it.

As mentioned in another post...the two guys picked after him are doing about the same as he is in their respective positions, yet they seem to get a pass everywhere and people say "You have to give them time." no one has ever been willing to give Mario that same time. Had he been picked by the Saints the outlook on him would have been completely different.

Not willing to give him time would be me posting "GET THE F OFF MY TEAM" rather than me looking over his performance thus far and comparing him to guys in similiar situations (same draft class). Obviously you could say "Oh Anderson is on a better defense" as you have already done and give me hundreds of factors that show they are not in similiar situations, so Ill leave you to that argument as I know it is coming. There is no way I can combat it in as few amount of words as I would like.

I really don't care that Mario has been picked over any of those guys. He still was the right pick. There are guys that have a fantastic first year and never continue up on it, there are guys who don't do squat their first few years than breakout...this is why you give a guy time. That is all. That has been it.

I hope your right, but if you haven't noticed, time is the same problem we had with Carr and alot of people are a bit upset about having to wait and wait to see what it is we drafted.

I still stand by my point. A season and a half is NOT enough time to pass final judgement on Mario Williams.

Who said anything about final judgement? It's you that is taking simple analysis and changing it into a conclusion; I don't see anyone else making their final judgement.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 06:43 PM
Huh. Too bad they couldn't find anyone better than Flanagan in two years or White this year.

I just say that because we all know Flanagan isn't doing a very good job so to hear Kubiak say that makes me think he doesn't know his football too well or Chris White just isn't as good as Flanagan. Pretty sure it is the latter.

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 06:45 PM
I never said it was a final conclusion. I said that we expect more out of him due to the success of other defensive ends drafted in the same class. Because you were talking about giving players plenty of time to learn to adjust, I figured it was about time to show the successes of players that have had the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO ADJUST.

So basically...a season and a half is right about where you expect Mario to produce.

As far as I am concerned he had a good year last year and he has more sacks than Mario this year in his FIRST year starting. Oh, I am looking, and it is obviously worse than Mario when it comes to pass rushing so I don't really know what point you make here.

No because he had 12 sacks as a situational guy. So you'd figure as a full time DE he would do better, but he is on pace to get below his 12 and maybe have a single-digit sack season. Also...he has .5 of a sack advatage over Mario... one half of sack over Mario and Mario has more taclkes than him also.

Because we were talking about getting to the quarterback. I clearly wrote "IN THE SACKS CATEGORY" in caps so you wouldn't make this argument, but I guess that was for nothing. Also, I wrote later in the thread that he is a good run stopper (I figured you'd realize that tackles has alot to do with that, guess I was wrong there again).

I am talking about Mario Williams the DE, that includes his pass rushing. I guess you were talking about his pass rushing, but I am talking about the overall player. I did ignore it, I saw what you are talking about, but I just ignored it because I am talking about the player. I figure if you are going to get a #1 pick he should be a good overall player, not just good at one thing.

This may be, but to act as if comparing him to other DE's in his same draft class and analyzing his play is wrong is wrong in itself. He may be a late bloomer in the NFL but as of right now he is "producing" less than most of the DE's drafted in 2006 in the first 4 rounds IN THE SACKS AND PRESSURE CATEGORY.

As of right now he has 3.5 sacks and producing around the same as all of those other guys. So I don't know how he is doing so bad right now.

Also alot of soda's fizz when I open them. What kind of weird thing is that to say? Who care what "alot of second year DEs get"? I care about MARIO WILLIAMS and how MARIO WILLIAMS is producing compared to defensive ends in the same class, therefore determining his value AS A DEFENSIVE END of the 2006 draft class.

Okay, you can't determine his value as a DE among his class after a season and a half.

I'd be happy with 7 sacks as well. Because I know he isn't a pure pass rusher. His strength is stopping the run. My MAIN problem here is that the reason given for choosing Mario Williams was that we needed a PASS RUSH. Not a defensive end that can stop the run, we got that in Anthony Weaver.

Who says he can't ever learn to pass rush?

I mentioned it later (later than the post you have quoted) in the thread. I said I gave him the benifit of the doubt last year but what is the difference between this year and last year? I don't see a huge difference like he all the sudden got the use of one of his feet back...as you so dramatically put it.

You don't see much of a difference? He's playing better than he did last year is he not? Now could this be because he's learning more or because he's 100% I think it may be both. Plantar is pretty limiting though, so I think it is a factor.

Not willing to give him time would be me posting "GET THE F OFF MY TEAM" rather than me looking over his performance thus far and comparing him to guys in similiar situations (same draft class). Obviously you could say "Oh Anderson is on a better defense" as you have already done and give me hundreds of factors that show they are not in similiar situations, so Ill leave you to that argument as I know it is coming. There is no way I can combat it in as few amount of words as I would like.

Anderson was also a situational pass rusher on a great defense.

I hope your right, but if you haven't noticed, time is the same problem we had with Carr and alot of people are a bit upset about having to wait and wait to see what it is we drafted.

You have to wait, it was a mistake in putting Carr behind no line. It was not a mistake in waiting to see what we had.

Who said anything about final judgement? It's you that is taking simple analysis and changing it into a conclusion; I don't see anyone else making their final judgement.

Go through this whole post. There are plenty of posters saying "He will never be this or that." I'm not sure it was you. I was just responding to your post. Maybe you are willing to give him his time and you are just criticizing his play. Fine.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 07:01 PM
No because he had 12 sacks as a situational guy. So you'd figure as a full time DE he would do better, but he is on pace to get below his 12 and maybe have a single-digit sack season. Also...he has .5 of a sack advatage over Mario... one half of sack over Mario and Mario has more taclkes than him also.

My point was that you said "look at what he is doing now" after stating he had a good season. That usually means that he isn't doing very well or as well anyway. Even if that is so...my point was that he has more sacks than Mario THIS YEAR as a STARTING DE so I do not know what your point is.

I am talking about Mario Williams the DE, that includes his pass rushing. I guess you were talking about his pass rushing, but I am talking about the overall player. I did ignore it, I saw what you are talking about, but I just ignored it because I am talking about the player. I figure if you are going to get a #1 pick he should be a good overall player, not just good at one thing.

The first post I responded to of yours was about his pass rushing ability. It said nothing about his run defense. Just because my comments were directed toward what you had said rather than what you could have said doesn't mean I have completely ignored the rest of his football game.

Okay, you can't determine his value as a DE among his class after a season and a half.

Dude, take an accounting class or something. Value is determined on a regular basis. You don't determine the value of the #1 overall pick and set it in stone, it changes regularly. That's why I use terms such as "as of right now". What's up with assuming my or anyone else's opinion is the last they will ever make about the guy? Why can't you understand that it is a rating as of RIGHT NOW. By your reasoning, we shouldn't make any analysis until after year 3. Talk about stupid.

Who says he can't ever learn to pass rush?

I don't know...you tell me. Where is that stated?

You have to wait, it was a mistake in putting Carr behind no line. It was not a mistake in waiting to see what we had.

I'm not going to even address Carr with you. Never said it was a mistake to wait and see. Never said we shouldn't wait. Man you love to assume. I was trying to explain the reasoning behind so many people wanting to analyze Mario's play. Our last #1 overall pick is no longer on the team and never materialized into what we thought he was going to be. If you haven't figured it out yet...the reason people want to analyze him now is because of a similiar situation that we had not to long ago.

So basically...a season and a half is right about where you expect Mario to produce.

I expect Mario to produce IMMEDIATELY. As soon as he touches the football field I expect it. And no this doesn't mean I have given up on him because he hasn't produced up to expectations. And no this doesn't mean my final decision on Mario Williams is "he sux ass"

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 07:15 PM
My point was that you said "look at what he is doing now" after stating he had a good season. That usually means that he isn't doing very well or as well anyway. Even if that is so...my point was that he has more sacks than Mario THIS YEAR as a STARTING DE so I do not know what your point is.

He has a half of a sack more than Mario. That isn't a big deal and isn't really a deal at all.

The first post I responded to of yours was about his pass rushing ability. It said nothing about his run defense. Just because my comments were directed toward what you had said rather than what you could have said doesn't mean I have completely ignored the rest of his football game.

That is what I said later in my previous post. I told you I was just responding to your post, in this thread there are posters that seem to have passed final judgement on Mario. Was it you, I guess not.

Dude, take an accounting class or something. Value is determined on a regular basis. You don't determine the value of the #1 overall pick and set it in stone, it changes regularly. That's why I use terms such as "as of right now". What's up with assuming my or anyone else's opinion is the last they will ever make about the guy? Why can't you understand that it is a rating as of RIGHT NOW. By your reasoning, we shouldn't make any analysis until after year 3. Talk about stupid.

Well I don't know about stupid, but I am not going to resort to any personal attacks. Whether you meant it to be personal or not, I did take it as a personal attack on my intelligence.

As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

[/QUOTE]

Never said it was a mistake to wait and see. Never said we shouldn't wait. Man you love to assume. I was trying to explain the reasoning behind so many people wanting to analyze Mario's play. Our last #1 overall pick is no longer on the team and never materialized into what we thought he was going to be. If you haven't figured it out yet...the reason people want to analyze him now is because of a similiar situation that we had not to long ago.

I never said you said it was never a mistake. Did I? No I just stated that waiting to see what we had was the right decision. That is all. You are the one that assumed here.

Also if people are sensitive to Mario because of Carr they shouldn't be. They are two completely different people. There are people analyzing Mario right now and there are people attacking him, saying he is horrible, and saying he will never be a great DE. Are you one of them? I guess not.

I expect Mario to produce IMMEDIATELY. As soon as he touches the football field I expect it. And no this doesn't mean I have given up on him because he hasn't produced up to expectations. And no this doesn't mean my final decision on Mario Williams is "he sux ass"

Cool then, what is the problem?

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 07:27 PM
He has a half of a sack more than Mario. That isn't a big deal and isn't really a deal at all.

By my count Anderson is up by one sack...I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

Well I don't know about stupid, but I am not going to resort to any personal attacks. Whether you meant it to be personal or not, I did take it as a personal attack on my intelligence.

As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

I don't mean to attack you, bro, and I am sorry for it. I just don't see the reasoning behind some of what you say. But I do agree that you can't make a final judgement after a year and a half.

I never said you said it was never a mistake. Did I? No I just stated that waiting to see what we had was the right decision. That is all. You are the one that assumed here.

Your probably right...sorry for that.

Double Barrel
10-25-2007, 07:31 PM
As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

I've read through the entire thread and NOBODY made statements akin to "He will never be this or that". People have just analyzed his play, as well as the rest of the defensive line, up to this point. Not all of the opinions are pretty and homeristic, but that is the nature of being fans for a mediocre team.

You are connecting the [imaginary] dots and making assumptions that people are "passing final judgement", when, in fact, that is contrary to the actual posts in this thread. I'm not attacking you, but it does appear to be a Don Quixote syndrome in action. Comprehend more and assume less and there would not be near as much conflict.

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 07:42 PM
By my count Anderson is up by one sack...I may be wrong, but I don't think so.



I don't mean to attack you, bro, and I am sorry for it. I just don't see the reasoning behind some of what you say. But I do agree that you can't make a final judgement after a year and a half.



Your probably right...sorry for that.

I don't know if I said it in this thread or the other Mario thread about his presser last week. I know he isn't playing like he should be playing right now. I realize that, but i've seen many posts saying things like "He's never going to be this or that." also i've veen seeing people say things like this last year.

Now the only reason I defend Mario like I do is because people then turn around and judge the same two guys picked after Mario differently. They say "Well he has to have time." yet when it comes to Mario I just don't see it much.

My feeling on this is that he's going to improve and I feel he CAN develop into a pass rusher. Just like people feel VY is going to develop into a passer. Just like people feel Bush can develop into a actual RB.

Also Mario was more than likely going to be the first DE taken, he was the first defensive players on most if not all teams boards. That is why I feel Mario's value as a player and to this team is can he reach his potential. He hasn't reached it yet, but if he does his value changes as you mentioned. So I don't know why I am debating with you. Maybe I started it I am not sure.

I agree that he's a good run-stopper and his pass rushing can be improved greatly. And he should be judged as a pass rusher first because that is what he is here for.

Thorn
10-25-2007, 07:52 PM
Mario has the stigma of having been drafted first, and gets an abnormal amount of flack because of it. Football fans will be debating the Mario-Bush-VY thing for years. None of those three have produced yet what everyone thinks they should have, and all three have been outplayed by players drafted lower than them. I’d like to say let’s revisit this thing in another couple of years, but that would be futile. This will be a point of contention for a long time until one of those three truly steps up.

I believe Mario and VY will.

Second Honeymoon
10-25-2007, 07:53 PM
Mario could develop into a good NFL player but right now he is average to below-average for a starter. When you also add in the fact that he is such a big cap hit and the fact that we spent a #1 overall pick on him, then you can start to realize how much the Texans have invested in this guy and how he has delivered a poor return on that investment going into his 24th game as a full time starter.

I am not a Mario hater but I refuse to make up excuses for professionals. The Strahan comparison is a bit farfetched too. At the end of the day, if Mario wasnt the #1 overall pick and making so much money he would be 2nd or 3rd on the RE depth chart on just about any NFL defensive unit. He has to start producing or he can expect the criticisms to snowball.

I want the guy to produce and I don't expect Pro Bowl numbers overnight. What I do expect is for him to actually have a motor and for him to stop waltzing with OL play after play. The guy is always standing up away from the action at the end of a play too. I think the best bet for him would be a move to DT alongside Okoye. Then you go out and get a real pass rushing threat and not just some workout warrior who is slow in pads.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2007, 07:55 PM
So I don't know why I am debating with you. Maybe I started it I am not sure.

No no, don't blame yourself...I started it when I saw what you were posting.

That is it for me when it comes to this though. Everything I have to say has been said and I would just end up repeating myself.

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 08:01 PM
I've read through the entire thread and NOBODY made statements akin to "He will never be this or that". People have just analyzed his play, as well as the rest of the defensive line, up to this point. Not all of the opinions are pretty and homeristic, but that is the nature of being fans for a mediocre team.

You are connecting the [imaginary] dots and making assumptions that people are "passing final judgement", when, in fact, that is contrary to the actual posts in this thread. I'm not attacking you, but it does appear to be a Don Quixote syndrome in action. Comprehend more and assume less and there would not be near as much conflict.

This is what I was talking about.

I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.

He beat up guys who didn't have the physical ability to stay with him. You don't find those matchups in the NFL too often.

What does "serious potential" mean if you have no football skill or instinct for the game? Do you remember when that wrestler named Brock Lesnar worked out for the Vikings? He is everything you want when looking for "serious potential" in an athlete in a sport such as football. He couldn't overcome his lack of instinct, football smarts, and ability to harness all that potential when dealing with NFL veterans. For all his immense physical ability guys with lesser potential whipped his ass all the time.

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nfl/2004/0628/photo/e_lesnarfb_hi.jpg

Also just mentioning the draft IMO makes me assume that that person thinks we should have drafted someone else. So than that means that person probably thinks Mario is a bust.

Also I saw someone say he will be a good player but never great. I don't feel like searching through the thread right now but that is final judgement on Mario.

As for Texanseminole, I think me and him started about the last play so I don't know how it went to Mario.

I don't even bring up Mario, but some of the post come real close to calling Mario a bust. That is where I come in, the first thing was a sentence about not passing final judgement on him.

Runner
10-25-2007, 08:40 PM
I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.


Also just mentioning the draft IMO makes me assume that that person thinks we should have drafted someone else. So than that means that person probably thinks Mario is a bust.


Too bad assumptions aren't knowledge. Do a search - I was a Mario fan pre-draft. After watching him play at the NFL level I've changed my mind. Some people can change their minds based on new evidence.

Sorry to break your strawman argument.

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 08:47 PM
Too bad assumptions aren't knowledge. Do a search - I was a Mario fan pre-draft. After watching him play at the NFL level I've changed my mind. Some people can change their minds based on new evidence.

Sorry to break your strawman argument.

So who should we have drafted? That is what I want to know.

Runner
10-25-2007, 08:54 PM
So who should we have drafted? That is what I want to know.

First you build a strawman then you change the argument? I thought you were just arguing that it was unfair to judge Mario before three years are up.

My question is, do developmental players taken later in the draft get three years too, or just players who are paid to make an immediate impact?

Leahmic223
10-25-2007, 09:05 PM
First you build a strawman then you change the argument? I thought you were just arguing that it was unfair to judge Mario before three years are up.

My question is, do developmental players taken later in the draft get three years too, or just players who are paid to make an immediate impact?

I asked the draft question because you already have passed your final judgement on him. So when I figure you did, I thought it was right to ask you about the draft.

I'm done with it though. I just wonder those who think Mario was a waste of a pick who should we have picked then? I don't care about it no more though, I'm done with it.

As for the strawman...I didn't build one. My first post was responding to Vinny calling Mario a workout warrior. I know what that means, it means a guy who merely puts up numbers in the draft workouts but never can and will in actual games. And all I said to that was "I don't think it is fair to judge guys after a season and a half."

Runner
10-25-2007, 09:47 PM
I asked the draft question because you already have passed your final judgement on him. So when I figure you did, I thought it was right to ask you about the draft.

I'm done with it though. I just wonder those who think Mario was a waste of a pick who should we have picked then? I don't care about it no more though, I'm done with it.

As for the strawman...I didn't build one. My first post was responding to Vinny calling Mario a workout warrior. I know what that means, it means a guy who merely puts up numbers in the draft workouts but never can and will in actual games. And all I said to that was "I don't think it is fair to judge guys after a season and a half."

Here's the strawman I was talking about:

Also just mentioning the draft IMO makes me assume that that person thinks we should have drafted someone else. So than that means that person probably thinks Mario is a bust.




There is nothing magic about three years for passing "final judgement" anyway. Why not 2? Why not 5? If Mario gets three years, I guess players picked later in the draft for potential should get more. It seems the ultimate conclusion following such logic is no one shoud be "judged" before three years.

Evaluating players is about passing judgement anyway. Just because you don't agree with the conclusion doesn't make the process inherently wrong.