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RTP2110
10-18-2007, 10:20 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7343980

Whitlock make some good points, but I still think that if you can play someone will sign you.

Yankee_In_TX
10-18-2007, 10:26 PM
HTF do you mention Chad and LJ in the same breath as criminals? That article is stupid.

Hip hop? How the in the world is Chad Johnson hip hop? Or LJ? Or TO?

Seriously, this guy is full of it.

Yeah, Vic, Tank, and Pacman are just as bad for the NFL as Chad. Or wait, Chad hasn't been convicted of anything, hasn't hurt anyone or any animals, and fans love him or love to hate him. And he's good. Real bad for the NFL.

Texans_Chick
10-18-2007, 10:50 PM
This has been a Whitlock theme for a while. That hip hop culture undermines African American success, and that the bad parts of hip hop provide horrible role models for youth. That it promotes rebellion without purpose.

I think he tries to make these points best here:

Race is not the determining factor when it comes to having a good or bad attitude. Culture is.

Hip hop is the dominant culture for black youth. In general, music, especially hip hop music, is rebellious for no good reason other than to make money. Rappers and rockers are not trying to fix problems. They create problems for attention.

That philosophy, attitude and behavior go against everything football coaches stand for. They're in a constant battle to squash rebellion, dissent and second opinions from their players.

You know why Muhammad Ali is/was an icon? Because he rebelled against something meaningful and because he excelled in an individual sport. His rebellion didn't interfere with winning. Jim Brown, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, etc. rebelled with dignity and purpose.

What we're witnessing today are purposeless, selfish acts of buffoonery. Sensible people have grown tired of it. Football people are recognizing it doesn't contribute to a winning environment.


It is a subtle argument that he makes, and one that is easily misread or misused.

He is not making the point that "black players are wearing out their welcome" but rather that those high profile players who embrace the worst elements of hip hop culture are doing a disservice to other black athletes and are bad role models for black youth who wrongly try to emulate them.

GlassHalfFull
10-18-2007, 11:18 PM
This has been a Whitlock theme for a while. That hip hop culture undermines African American success, and that the bad parts of hip hop provide horrible role models for youth. That it promotes rebellion without purpose.

I think he tries to make these points best here:




It is a subtle argument that he makes, and one that is easily misread or misused.

He is not making the point that "black players are wearing out their welcome" but rather that those high profile players who embrace the worst elements of hip hop culture are doing a disservice to other black athletes and are bad role models for black youth who wrongly try to emulate them.

I wish I could rep you more. I love the rational way you put things. When I first saw the thread title, I couldn't believe it. Thank you for helping keep things in perspective.

Yankee_In_TX
10-18-2007, 11:30 PM
I agree with TC. He's saying some of these guys glorify criminal activites. Still no basis for Chad or Larry Johnson or TO.

Specnatz
10-18-2007, 11:45 PM
The major problem with Whitlock is that he uses race way to often in his arguments. If he did not use it so much then people would not be construde what he says.

If you scream fire to often (as in a forest fire) when it is only a camp fire, then people will misread what you are trying to say.

StarStruck
10-19-2007, 12:43 AM
I am about to do something that I rarely do, and that is comment before reading the full article, but I am sleepy.

Based on the above comment, my first though is why not just let people be people without the criticism because certain personalities are different from our own. Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, and those with similar personalities had their uniqueness, which I believe many appreciated and respected. Then you had the Billy White Shoes, and Icky can't recall his last name, TO, and Chad who all have opposite personalities. Is it wrong because they do? If they have a way of entertaining the fans in their own unique way, is it a bad thing? Can you imagine a world without comedy? If I am not a natural comedian, should I reduce their gift to buffoonery?

Some of the players antics suck IMO, but who am I to judge their character because I am not impressed? I thought that Deone Sanders was hilarious, and still do, but because he is doesn't put him in the category of a Rae Carruth or Pacman Jones. Heck, some of the Texan players celebrate and run and jump into the arms of fans after a touchdown? Wouldn't it be more sophisticated to hand the ball to the Ref and head to the sidelines?

One thing for sure, if a players antics are not funny they aren't going to keep embarrassing themselves by trying to win the fans over when it is obvious that the audience isn't impressed.

Texan_Bill
10-19-2007, 08:50 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7343980

Whitlock make some good points, but I still think that if you can play someone will sign you.

DAMN!!!!

*************************
Great read.... Whitlock has spoken out about this kind of behavior before. In fact, Rome listeners may remember when he hosted the show and had some very interesting points...

nunusguy
10-19-2007, 10:06 AM
"Johnson's insistence on conducting a minstrel show during games has long been reluctantly tolerated by Lewis."
***************************
This is so ironical, because young A-As go nuts when anyone accuses them of being immature, irresponsible, incapable, incompetant, etc. In other words, a boy and not a man. Then Chad Johnson does his minstel show thing that is really so demeaning of Blacks.
But as Whitlock points out, its not a racial issue but a cultural issue among
A-As. For comparison, just take a quick look at the African-Nigerians in our
community, and in more specific and really more relavant terms, the A-Ns that are members of the Houston Texans. Actually, there's really no comparison.

kastofsna
10-19-2007, 10:44 AM
yeah, i'm tired of these damn black players. they're not even that good, when you think about. name ONE good black player. i dare you.

powerfuldragon
10-19-2007, 10:48 AM
name ONE good black player. i dare you.

peyton manning

/endthread.

Yankee_In_TX
10-19-2007, 10:48 AM
Then Chad Johnson does his minstel show thing that is really so demeaning of Blacks.

I am curious why you think his actions are demeaning of blacks?

Double Barrel
10-19-2007, 10:54 AM
He is not making the point that "black players are wearing out their welcome" but rather that those high profile players who embrace the worst elements of hip hop culture are doing a disservice to other black athletes and are bad role models for black youth who wrongly try to emulate them.

Many of these kids are a product of ghetto backgrounds, so it's not so much that they are embracing hip hop culture as much as they are a product of said culture.

This is white America reacting to something it doesn't understand and will probably never understand. Maybe if our country devoted a small percentage of it's military budget to elevating the education levels and business opportunities of poor areas some of this could change. But the youth sees where our priorities are as a nation, and it sure isn't them! (unless they can run fast and catch a ball, of course)

Country & western music promotes adultery, alcoholism, and a host of other socially dysfunctional behaviors, too....

HoustonFrog
10-19-2007, 10:58 AM
Whitlock consistently confuses me. There are times when I hear him sub for Rome or write and article and it makes perfect sense. He did a bang up job of being one of the few people not to make excuses for Vick and to tell people that illegal is illegal and that any person of any color would have been busted. Then he turns around the next week and agrees with the Atlanta NAACP leader that Vick needs a second chance and that he somehow got railroaded when it came to his reputation....or those are the statements he fails to address. He picks and chooses from quotes and ignores the rest. I liked this article, not because I think there is this prevalent problem with african-american athletes or really that they embrace hip-hop but the fact that there are, as TC said, many that have stopped using their celebrity in a good way but instead have sullied it and have "punked" out. Many have taken the role as "bad boy" because the media eats it up, yet it doesn't leave a very good lasting impression. I guess you can say that at times we created this monster. Who knows.

Second Honeymoon
10-19-2007, 11:05 AM
i applaud Whitlock for saying some of the ugly truths about our culture in America (not just black culture). I wouldn't equate TO or Chad with criminals but their primadonna me-first attitude is part and parcel of the get rich quick or die trying culture.

a lot of african-american athletes do a disservice to their community by being poor role models.

kudos to whitlock

Vinny
10-19-2007, 11:21 AM
Country & western music promotes adultery, alcoholism, and a host of other socially dysfunctional behaviors, too....yeah, but you don't need to buy a gun and sell crack to be cool having sex or getting drunk...not quite the same thing.

unrelated to that comment...Whitlock is just a guy speaking his mind...donno why all black guys have to think alike.

Leahmic223
10-19-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't like Whitlock, every time I see him on TV or something or reading a article from him it is about race. Maybe not everytime but above 90 percent.

I read the article yesterday and ignored it though.

Leahmic223
10-19-2007, 11:48 AM
yeah, but you don't need to buy a gun and sell crack to be cool having sex or getting drunk...not quite the same thing.

unrelated to that comment...Whitlock is just a guy speaking his mind...donno why all black guys have to think alike.

The problem is...that is what the public buys. That is the main problem with Rap music.

There are TONS of rap artist who are more positive but they get no shine and sell WAY less than the 'Gangsta rap' genre or the 'Pop Rap' genre.

The only guys that have sold off of positive rap really are Common, Kanye...and maybe 2pac since he has a lot of songs with really good messages to them but he has a lot of negative songs as well. Yet this is a whole genre and tons of guys who just don't sell. Common is the Rare exception, he's the only consicous rapper to sell the way he does. 2pac never really does it he was a gangster rapper too, and Kanye is more like a pop rapper who...Kanye is just different i'll leave it at that.

Jay-Z even went as far to say he has to dumb down his lyrics to sell, he said that a LONG time ago and once he did do that...kaboom. Hi

I listen to a lot of rap though, the people love to buy the negative rap than let the media blame Hip Hop for making negative rap. That is what sells so of course they are going to make it. As for the argument of "Well why can't the artist make a stand, say 'screw the money, its about the quality' "
I guess that is fair, but some of these guys used to have NO MONEY, if someone tells them make a song abuot drugs and you can become a millionaire I doubt they are going to say no.

But yeah, I guess my point is that to be cool in rap you don't have to buy a gun or sell drugs. You do that to sell. To be cool in rap you have to be a good poet, writer, and just a good thinker.

But rap has Genre's just like any other music. One Genre just out-sells the others.

nunusguy
10-19-2007, 11:55 AM
I am curious why you think his actions are demeaning of blacks?

"Minstrel shows portrayed and lampooned blacks in stereotypical and often disparaging ways: as ignorant, lazy, buffoonish, superstitious, joyous, and musical. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

hollywood_texan
10-19-2007, 12:07 PM
Whitlock writes a very interesting article, but I believe his analysis of certain black players and characterizing black players as a whole is over stepping a bit.

First, I agree with him that players 15 to 30 years ago and probably 40 years ago, built the NFL to what it is today so players of today can enjoy those fat contracts. But, that isn't just a black thing, but a major and significant contribution nonetheless. Something similar happened to the NBA in the same time frame. Magic, Bird, and Jordan built the league to support the contracts that are doled out today in the NBA. Point is, the players of today in both sports probably should be paying royalties to the older guys.

Second, I agree with assessment of the hip hop culture. I am probably not the best person to critique hip hop given my background and that I have developed my opinion with limited experience and thought on the matter. I am too focused in my own life to really care. But, what I will say this is though, hip hop is not really about entertainment, but about a way of life. There seems to be no difference between the two. Which is, in my opinion, a serious problem.

Third, I disagree with him on his opinions regarding Chad Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Terrell Owens. Personally, I find Chad Johnson and Terrell Owens very entertaining and see more of personality than some mindless hip hop culture persona. I definitely see how you can make that assessment about Chad Johnson, but if you really look at him and what he does, it really crosses over to everyone. He is an entertainer with a big ego. That definitely isn't just black thing, hip hop thing, it's a person thing.

So, I basically I agree with Whitlock but I think he is overreaching a bit. Just because a guy is black and bolsterous, doesn't put him in the hip hop category. I say lay off Chad Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Terrell Owens. However, the Pac Man Jones and Michael Vick stuff, I see where he is going with that and makes a very valid point.

Porky
10-19-2007, 12:08 PM
This has been a Whitlock theme for a while. That hip hop culture undermines African American success, and that the bad parts of hip hop provide horrible role models for youth. That it promotes rebellion without purpose.

I think he tries to make these points best here:




It is a subtle argument that he makes, and one that is easily misread or misused.

He is not making the point that "black players are wearing out their welcome" but rather that those high profile players who embrace the worst elements of hip hop culture are doing a disservice to other black athletes and are bad role models for black youth who wrongly try to emulate them.


You must spread some reputation around...blah blah blah. Great points as usual...

Texans_Chick
10-19-2007, 12:11 PM
yeah, but you don't need to buy a gun and sell crack to be cool having sex or getting drunk...not quite the same thing.

unrelated to that comment...Whitlock is just a guy speaking his mind...donno why all black guys have to think alike.

Agreed.

I have to say that as a white person, I was embarrassed by the phenomenon of line dancing even though that wasn't something I ever did.

Fortunately, line dancing didn't have such a place in white culture that it was overly glorified and emulated by too many youth. But it really does scare me and embarrasses me as a white person that this is something some white people thought was a cool thing to do.

I could see why Whitlock might be horrified by the buffoonery of some of the more high profile people in his community and feel compelled to speak out on this.

https://shop.dancing-times.co.uk/catalog/images/Christy%20Lanes%20Complete%20Book%20of%20Line%20Da ncing.jpg

Porky
10-19-2007, 12:13 PM
I sure wish something would change and they would bring back the old school black music for the kids - the Blues, Motown, dance music. That music was actually GOOD, and enjoyed by people of all races and ages. Nothing wrong with a little BB King, or Stevie Wonder or the Platters. I don't remember any of those folks talk about ho's or offing cops or using curse words to make thier point. But, hey what do I know, I'm just a white guy in my mid forties wondering what the hell has gone wrong in the last couple of decades. :gun:

Yankee_In_TX
10-19-2007, 12:18 PM
"Minstrel shows portrayed and lampooned blacks in stereotypical and often disparaging ways: as ignorant, lazy, buffoonish, superstitious, joyous, and musical. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

I get that, so you're buying that Chad Johnon's endzone activities are equivalent to minstrel shows?!?!?!

Sorry, I'm just not buying what Whitlock is selling.

Further, whether or not Chad is doing things that are equivalent to a minstrel show has nothing to do with athletes embracing the "hip hop culture" (back to Whitlock here, not necessarily your comment).

This article is just disjointed and lame.

Yankee_In_TX
10-19-2007, 12:20 PM
Third, I disagree with him on his opinions regarding Chad Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Terrell Owens. Personally, I find Chad Johnson and Terrell Owens very entertaining and see more of personality than some mindless hip hop culture persona. I definitely see how you can make that assessment about Chad Johnson, but if you really look at him and what he does, it really crosses over to everyone. He is an entertainer with a big ego. That definitely isn't just black thing, hip hop thing, it's a person thing.

So, I basically I agree with Whitlock but I think he is overreaching a bit. Just because a guy is black and bolsterous, doesn't put him in the hip hop category. I say lay off Chad Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Terrell Owens. However, the Pac Man Jones and Michael Vick stuff, I see where he is going with that and makes a very valid point.

Rep for that, I 100% agree. Maybe Whitlock has star-player envy?

Overalls
10-19-2007, 01:40 PM
Many of these kids are a product of ghetto backgrounds, so it's not so much that they are embracing hip hop culture as much as they are a product of said culture.

This is an excuse. Used to hold people back.

This is white America reacting to something it doesn't understand and will probably never understand.

This is a blanket and racist statement. Ask Bill Cosby what he thinks. People across this nation can overcome poverty by deciding to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Self impowerment starts with oneself not the government.


What is the first step is solving a problem?

Addmitting you have a problem.

kastofsna
10-19-2007, 01:46 PM
we need an amendment against line dancing.

The Dream
10-19-2007, 01:51 PM
whitlock is making "some" points, but linking it to "hip hop" culture is the wrong thing imo.

edit

and I don't see Chad Johnson as being part of a minstrel show...........why is he depicted as a coon just because he's brash when he scores a TD????

Texan_Bill
10-19-2007, 03:03 PM
we need an amendment against line dancing.

Only if there is sub-paragraph to include the macarena:

http://www.geocities.com/khs76boilermaker/images/macarena.jpg

Second Honeymoon
10-19-2007, 04:29 PM
Only if there is sub-paragraph to include the macarena:

http://www.geocities.com/khs76boilermaker/images/macarena.jpg

and the 'Superman Ohhhh' dance song that is sweeping the nation....that song is 100% wack

StarStruck
10-19-2007, 05:31 PM
we need an amendment against line dancing.

What's wrong with line dancing if the dancers are having a good time? I guess I'm missing something about it, but in places that I've been it seems when someone starts a line type dance folks that ordinarily sit through other dances somehow get motivated to get up and join in.

Double Barrel
10-19-2007, 06:30 PM
yeah, but you don't need to buy a gun and sell crack to be cool having sex or getting drunk...not quite the same thing.

I was just having fun with the C&W comment...should've put a 'sarcasm disclaimer' on there for clarity.

Although, I do know quite a few C&W fans with drinking problems, multiple marriages, etc.... :whistle:

What is the first step is solving a problem?

Addmitting you have a problem.

The first step is to stop blaming music for society's problems. Metal has long been blamed for things that are well beyond it's control. I've been listening to heavy music for decades and have no inclination to act upon anything in the lyrics.

I know many folks who listen to 'gangster rap', too. All of them have families and careers and none of them are at risk of going to prison because the music influences them.

Blaming an entertainment medium is a cop-out and the sign of shallow thinking. The problems in this country are far deeper than the symptoms that people attack, but it's much easier to just point the finger instead of actually attempting to make a difference.

My comment about "white America reacting to something it doesn't understand and will probably never understand" pertains to the fact that this culture is a sign of reality, NOT the cause of it. It is a pretty simple concept to grasp, but it seems few rarely try to put themselves in other's perspectives for better understanding. Much easier to generalize because comprehension takes work.

Leahmic223
10-19-2007, 09:17 PM
I was just having fun with the C&W comment...should've put a 'sarcasm disclaimer' on there for clarity.

Although, I do know quite a few C&W fans with drinking problems, multiple marriages, etc.... :whistle:



The first step is to stop blaming music for society's problems. Metal has long been blamed for things that are well beyond it's control. I've been listening to heavy music for decades and have no inclination to act upon anything in the lyrics.

I know many folks who listen to 'gangster rap', too. All of them have families and careers and none of them are at risk of going to prison because the music influences them.

Blaming an entertainment medium is a cop-out and the sign of shallow thinking. The problems in this country are far deeper than the symptoms that people attack, but it's much easier to just point the finger instead of actually attempting to make a difference.

My comment about "white America reacting to something it doesn't understand and will probably never understand" pertains to the fact that this culture is a sign of reality, NOT the cause of it. It is a pretty simple concept to grasp, but it seems few rarely try to put themselves in other's perspectives for better understanding. Much easier to generalize because comprehension takes work.

That is the way I feel. Music is just like any form of of art, there is violence everywhere, In music, movies,Video games, television, and even books. Yet Hip Hop seems to be today's scapegoat for whatever reason. I don't like when people bunch hip-hop altogether though, like its all about one thing and that is to glorify the negative. Some people will probably never understand it though.

I sure wish something would change and they would bring back the old school black music for the kids - the Blues, Motown, dance music. That music was actually GOOD, and enjoyed by people of all races and ages. Nothing wrong with a little BB King, or Stevie Wonder or the Platters. I don't remember any of those folks talk about ho's or offing cops or using curse words to make thier point. But, hey what do I know, I'm just a white guy in my mid forties wondering what the hell has gone wrong in the last couple of decades.

They have good music to listen to. Mainstream Rap DOES NOT = Hip Hop. That is what those opposed to Hip Hop need to understand. The reason you hear about guys offing cops, selling drugs, and degrading women because that is what sells, period. There is TONS of artist who are opposed to it, they just never sell and hardly see the any airplay. The problem isn't Hip Hop, its that America in general loves violence in general in its entertainment and its art. That is why television is filled with it, why movies are filled with it, why video games are filled with it. I can't stress this enough there is a lot of positive rap and REAL rap (What I mean is they talk about negative things but they don't glorify it because they know it is nothing to brag about) I just wish people stop assuming that all rap is 50 Cent or Young Jeezy and they are just part of a sub-genre that gets the most attention.

Brandon420tx
10-19-2007, 10:15 PM
I think america is so pro-violence in our entertainment because we're no longer allowed to release our frustration and anger the backyard brawls and a good round of fistacuffs! Its always assualt this, battery that, harrassment blah blah blah. You act like an *****, then be prepared to take the stiff right hook like a man!

Summary: we have to find recreational ways to relieve our rage.

Counter-arguement: Mankind is just inherintly violant

ubecool454
10-26-2007, 08:12 AM
This has been a Whitlock theme for a while. That hip hop culture undermines African American success, and that the bad parts of hip hop provide horrible role models for youth. That it promotes rebellion without purpose.

I think he tries to make these points best here:




It is a subtle argument that he makes, and one that is easily misread or misused.

He is not making the point that "black players are wearing out their welcome" but rather that those high profile players who embrace the worst elements of hip hop culture are doing a disservice to other black athletes and are bad role models for black youth who wrongly try to emulate them.
Texans Chick you are on point with your comments. I agree with some of what the author says but overall I think he is offsides.