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View Full Version : Thought on the Boulware-Babin trade 6 weeks later?


Hook'er
10-17-2007, 05:52 AM
I thought it was a great move at first, but Boulware can't seen to get on the feild. Babin was really coming into his own before we traded him. Now I'm starting to second guess the whole trade!:texflag:

Leahmic223
10-17-2007, 06:24 AM
I don't think Babin has played much for the Seahawks either.

I don't know about Boulware though, personally I thought he would be a improvement and the only time I saw him with extended play time was against the Colts, and since he did a bad job there I haven't seen him on the field that much after that.

I hope we didn't judge the guy off of playing against the Colts offense.

I give him the benefit of the doubt though, because he has good play in him, his first 2 years in the NFL he played well.

Also some of our safeties have been doing good, so that has helped him stay off the field. He's always making plays on special teams though it seems.

TheDrifter
10-17-2007, 07:11 AM
Per NFL.com

Babin has no recorded stats. Boulware has four tackles.

Neither are lighting it up...so far the whole thing gets a big "meh" from me.

TheRealJoker
10-17-2007, 07:57 AM
I think he blocked a FG last week.

Vinny
10-17-2007, 08:07 AM
I thought it was a great move at first, but Boulware can't seen to get on the feild. Babin was really coming into his own before we traded him. Now I'm starting to second guess the whole trade!:texflag:

I don't know why everyone says that Boulware hasn't gotten to see the field. He's played a bunch of special teams and has gotten destroyed when playing defense....just lit up like a roman candle. That's the reason he isn't playing on d so much now. Neither team has gotten much out of the swap it seems...at least so far.

nunusguy
10-17-2007, 08:23 AM
In generic terms, an effective edge rusher will always be more valuable than
a competent strong-safety. But I dunno, is one effective and the other competent ?
The Texans also seem to feel we have more depth at DE than SS. But bottom-line is it's a little early to draw conclusions.

Twitch-Houston
10-17-2007, 08:44 AM
I think he blocked a FG last week.

Blocked the extra point but still a blocked kick when all is said and done. Had the game been close it could have made a difference. If you look at the game, we got close to blocking kicks several times. Whether it was him or not I'm not sure.

I've seen him on special teams quite a bit so I think he's contributing more than I remember Babin contributing. Not to mention when you see him in person he looks like someone you wouldn't want putting a hit on you.

real
10-17-2007, 08:47 AM
I think in the Babin trade, we traded away our best pass rusher...

Doesn't mean it was a bad trade, but time will tell....

digitalswim
10-17-2007, 09:10 AM
I think in the Babin trade, we traded away our best pass rusher...

Doesn't mean it was a bad trade, but time will tell....

Well his career stats do not seem to indicate he was any kind of pass rush threat. We have guys in the 6 week of the season approaching Babin's 16 game best sack total.

I am indifferent to the trade regardless. Babin was a huge reach when we drafted him and he has turned into a mediocre back up player much like Boulware.

The Pencil Neck
10-17-2007, 09:39 AM
Personally, I think that we've gotten the best out of this trade. Boulware has helped us a lot more than Babin has helped the Seahawks.

He's played a lot on special teams and has seen the field occasionally. I had hoped that he was going to be good enough to be a starter by this point but ... oh, well.

Hook'er
10-17-2007, 09:51 AM
I'm saying compared to how much Boulware has helped us. If Babin would have never been traded, how much would he have helped the Team. Babin would have been better & more productive for the Texans than Boulware currently has, therefore we go the short end of the stick!:gun:

Hook'er
10-17-2007, 09:55 AM
Just a bad move!

The Pencil Neck
10-17-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm saying compared to how much Boulware has helped us. If Babin would have never been traded, how much would he have helped the Team. Babin would have been better & more productive for the Texans than Boulware currently has, therefore we go the short end of the stick!:gun:

Dude.

Whatever.

You're not talking about difference makers. Babin wouldn't have given us that much more than what Boulware has given us so far and Boulware still has the possibility of giving us more. We would have had to cut Cochran or Anderson (or both), both of which have been OK in spot duty, and we still would have had to find someone to play strong safety behind CC.

The Boulware trade was good.

TexanSam
10-17-2007, 10:11 AM
Just a bad move!

How is it a bad move? Because Babin had a decent preseason? Whoopdidoo! Boulware hasn't done much for us, Babin hasn't done much for the Seahawks. I can't see any logic behind saying it's a bad trade.

76Texan
10-17-2007, 10:34 AM
We had a need at safety, we had extra at DE.
Babin was trade bait. Square deal.

No need really for what ifs, IMHO.
Boulware had been burnt badly a few times, but he had help some.
But this goes to show that we miss Earl and Simmons.

I never did like trading 3 picks for 1 when you are a young team.
I like Babin though. He played well the first year.
A shoulder injury slow him for almost 2 months in 05.

And well, really in the 4-3 that Kubiak wants to install when he came in, Babin was reduced to a specialist.

But if it's any consolation, the 3 picks that the tacs got out of the deal didn't pan out for them too well. (We might have done ourselves a little favor there.)

bckey
10-17-2007, 10:41 AM
I don't know why everyone says that Boulware hasn't gotten to see the field. He's played a bunch of special teams and has gotten destroyed when playing defense....just lit up like a roman candle. That's the reason he isn't playing on d so much now. Neither team has gotten much out of the swap it seems...at least so far.

I only saw him play a little defense against the Colts and I think that was at lb. Maybe I am just missing him when he gets put in the lineup.

I think the point some people are making is that had we kept Babin he would at least be seeing the field on passing rushing downs and probably getting some sacks. Seattle may not be using him the same or even playing him so comparing stats thus far to evalute the trade doesn't mean much at this point.

If all we eventually end up with is a special teamer then the Texans will be losers in this trade. Personally I don't think Richard Smith is doing a very good job with the defense. Bring on Frank Bush.

TexansSeminole
10-17-2007, 10:41 AM
How is it a bad move? Because Babin had a decent preseason? Whoopdidoo! Boulware hasn't done much for us, Babin hasn't done much for the Seahawks. I can't see any logic behind saying it's a bad trade.

I think he is talking about the opportunity cost of acquiring Boulware. Whatever impact Babin could have had for this team if the trade were not done.

What Babin has done in Seatle is almost irrelevant because who is to say he would have done the same here. The only question is if you believe Babin would have produced more this year than Boulware has. Personally, I think Babin would have a good year here, but I think Boulware can be our starting SS after learning the system (perhaps next year).

As of now, I think we got the short end of the stick so far. I have got to believe Babin would have produced here this year considering his fimiliarity with the system. However, I still think overall this will be looked at as a favorable trade for us.

Errant Hothy
10-17-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm saying compared to how much Boulware has helped us. If Babin would have never been traded, how much would he have helped the Team. Babin would have been better & more productive for the Texans than Boulware currently has, therefore we go the short end of the stick!:gun:

Um, so you are saying that Babin, a player that the FO was more then willing to let go would have help thei team...how? By being inavtice every week? Yo udo know that Seattle was desperate for D-line players, but I quess they are not desperate enough to play Babin (and that should tell you someting right there).

ugh...first VY man-love, now Babin man-love.

real
10-17-2007, 10:44 AM
Well his career stats do not seem to indicate he was any kind of pass rush threat. We have guys in the 6 week of the season approaching Babin's 16 game best sack total.

All the while our pass rush struggles...:rolleyes:

I don't think it was a bad move, but I do think we traded our best pass rusher...

TexansSeminole
10-17-2007, 10:46 AM
Um, so you are saying that Babin, a player that the FO was more then willing to let go would have help thei team...how? By being inavtice every week? Yo udo know that Seattle was desperate for D-line players, but I quess they are not desperate enough to play Babin (and that should tell you someting right there).

ugh...first VY man-love, now Babin man-love.

What's wrong with Babin? I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Who says Babin would be inactive for us? That sounds like it would be a bad move by our staff if he were on the roster, to make him inactive for games. Did Babin not help the team last year? If your answer is yes he did, what is the difference in last year and this year? If your answer is no he did not, what is your logic behind this?

Errant Hothy
10-17-2007, 10:53 AM
What's wrong with Babin? I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Who says Babin would be inactive for us? That sounds like it would be a bad move by our staff if he were on the roster, to make him inactive for games. Did Babin not help the team last year? If your answer is yes he did, what is the difference in last year and this year? If your answer is no he did not, what is your logic behind this?

Babin is a 3-4 Rush OLB, he can play in a 4-3 but his game in either system leaves alot to be desired. I think that there is nothing Babin could have done in the preseason to move ahead of Weaver or Williams (the starting DEs), nor can he play both d-line spots like Kalu, and before his injury Orr was getting more consistent pressure then Babin. So therefore while Babin isn't a horrible player I don't think he would have seen much of the field this year, and the FO saw this and made the move to trade Babin ofr Boulware. A player they thought would see more of the field then Babin.

Babin was able to help the team last year cause the team was lacking in talent at certain spots and quite frankly it still is.

While Boulware's play on D hasn't been much, his splay on the coverage units has been outstanding.

gtexan02
10-17-2007, 10:53 AM
All the while our pass rush struggles...:rolleyes:

I don't think it was a bad move, but I do think we traded our best pass rusher...


Our pass rush has struggled with or without Babin. Thats not a fair comparison

real
10-17-2007, 10:57 AM
Our pass rush has struggled with or without Babin. Thats not a fair comparison

Who was comparing anything ?

:um:

Errant Hothy
10-17-2007, 10:59 AM
All the while our pass rush struggles...:rolleyes:

I don't think it was a bad move, but I do think we traded our best pass rusher...

We have more sacks through 6 games this year then we had through 6 games last year, and that was with the mighty Jason Babin.

TexansSeminole
10-17-2007, 10:59 AM
Babin is a 3-4 Rush OLB, he can play in a 4-3 but his game in either system leaves alot to be desired.

I don't think Babin is a 3-4 player at all. He was far more consistant and successful when we played 4-3 than the 3-4. His OLB coverage skills were horrible and he never played the position very well overall. I always thought he was a 4-3 DE.

Hervoyel
10-17-2007, 11:02 AM
We needed help at the safety spot and had plenty of guys who can "not" pressure the QB from the DL. It's not a trade I particularly regret.

Now drafting Jason Babin in the first place I wish we could get a "do over" on.

This whole thing just highlights how there is almost never a silver lining to drafting poorly. You can't trade your bust for somebody elses and end up with a quality starter very often. Once in a blue moon you see that happen.

I guess in the long run the Babin pick wouldn't have been any better if we'd stayed put and drafted at our original spots instead of trading them away to the Titans. With Casserly running the show we'd just have 3-4 busts to cope with instead of one.

real
10-17-2007, 11:45 AM
We have more sacks through 6 games this year then we had through 6 games last year, and that was with the mighty Jason Babin.

What does that have to do with him being our best pass rusher ?

I think Jason Babin was the best edge rusher we had...

Sue me...

Errant Hothy
10-17-2007, 12:03 PM
What does that have to do with him being our best pass rusher ?

I think Jason Babin was the best edge rusher we had...

Sue me...

If he was the best edge rusher we had, shouldn't we have had less sacks without the best edge rusher not more?

76Texan
10-17-2007, 12:25 PM
We needed help at the safety spot and had plenty of guys who can "not" pressure the QB from the DL. It's not a trade I particularly regret.

Now drafting Jason Babin in the first place I wish we could get a "do over" on.

This whole thing just highlights how there is almost never a silver lining to drafting poorly. You can't trade your bust for somebody elses and end up with a quality starter very often. Once in a blue moon you see that happen.

I guess in the long run the Babin pick wouldn't have been any better if we'd stayed put and drafted at our original spots instead of trading them away to the Titans. With Casserly running the show we'd just have 3-4 busts to cope with instead of one.
As much as I agree with you on the Babin pick, I'd like to disagree with the take on Casserly.

Really, if you want to measure his performance, I think it would be more fair if you take the 4-5 worst teams at the end of 01, follow them thru the years to 06, and see which team still has more players in the NFL, especially quality players.

(The fact that some players don't play well for certain team but play better with another may have different implications, from coaching, system, the other parts on the team, etc.)

hollywood_texan
10-17-2007, 12:56 PM
If Babin was our best pass rusher and he hasn't done squat for the Seahawks, what does that say about our front seven?

I haven't looked up Babin's stats, nor have I looked at him play with the Seahawks.

I did watch last Sunday Night's game, and I don't recall hearing about him or seeing him one time.

It appears this trade was a push. It's really of no concern to me in particular.

My concern and the main general problem the Texans have is that they still have the same problems they had before Kubiak started, with the exception of the QB position.

The team is better, but it's just a different shade of grey.

It seems very clear to me that the Texans need to just load up the offense because Schaub looks like the guy that can deliver. RB and offensive line should be top priority in the draft to find impact starters. Maybe another stud WR?

Texans want to get better faster, get Schaub the tools and score a lot points. Forget the defense at the moment because it's like throwing money down a hole...

TexansSeminole
10-17-2007, 01:36 PM
If he was the best edge rusher we had, shouldn't we have had less sacks without the best edge rusher not more?

Because Amobi Okoye hasn't had any impact this year, right?

Leahmic223
10-17-2007, 01:39 PM
WE TRADED AMOBI?!?!?!

shit....

That's what I was thinking when he said "We traded our best pass rusher."

If Babin was our best pass rusher, he should have seen the field more, he couldn't start over Weaver or Williams.

I understand he came in and got sacks, but you have to understand... a lot of pass rushers get sacks if that is their only use. Guys like Orr, guys like Babin, these guys come in on passing situations, very fresh and ready to make a play. Where a Mario Williams starts nearly every drive, and can only commit so much energy for that drive or play(which is a negative to him). Not only that Mario has to worry about run plays on first and 10, and in those run/pass situations, he can't just come in there on 3rd and 12 with his stamina up and pin his ears back and go for the QB.

I'm not buying this Babin was our best pass rusher, that means our defensive line just flat out sucks if that is the case. And it doesn't, just some bad games and just inconsistent is the problem.

real
10-17-2007, 01:50 PM
If he was the best edge rusher we had, shouldn't we have had less sacks without the best edge rusher not more?

No.

That really has no correlation what so ever.

real
10-17-2007, 01:53 PM
I'm not buying this Babin was our best pass rusher, that means our defensive line just flat out sucks if that is the case.

If Babin wasn't our best pass rusher, who the hell was better ?


Mario ? Weaver ? Cochran ? Orr ?

Errant Hothy
10-17-2007, 01:58 PM
No.

That really has no correlation what so ever.

Huh? Isn't the job of your best edge rusher to get to the QB?

And if so shouldn't your sack numbers be higher when he is on the field?

There is a direct correlation between the play of your "best" edge rusher and the number of sacks you record. To say other wise makes no sense at all. It's like saying the best arm on your team is not your QB.

real
10-17-2007, 02:01 PM
uh...it correlates pretty well in my mind.

our "best" pass rusher is out and yet we're still doing better than last year. so either he wasn't the best, or he made little impact to begin with...

Huh? Isn't the job of your best edge rusher to get to the QB?

And if so shouldn't your sack numbers be higher when he is on the field?

There is a direct correlation between the play of your "best" edge rusher and the number of sacks you record. To say other wise makes no sense at all. It's like saying the best arm on your team is not your QB.


Why are you assuming his sack numbers wouldn't have increased with the team this year?

If he led in sacks last year, why wouldn't he have been able to do it this year ?

Maybe the D-line as a whole is performing better ? Maybe the addition of Amobi means that we'll have a better pass rush overall ?

Maybe players got better...

There are a million and one reasons why Babins sack numbers of last year don't correlate with our sack numbers this year...

For all you guys know, our sack numbers might be higher if he were here...I don't know if they would or wouldn't, but I do know that he was our best edge rusher...

And maybe I should say this again, but that doesn't mean it was a bad trade..

I just think we traded away one of the guys who showed he could get to the QB more than most of the others on the D-line...And he was playing really well in camp and pre-season...

real
10-17-2007, 02:14 PM
It still doesn't correlate.

The only thing that does correlate is that the D-line as a whole has done better so it makes no sense to think Babin individually would have done worse...

If everyone else on the D-line is playing better and we've accumulated more sacks as a whole, why wouldn't Babin have gotten better too? I think the pre-season he was having was trending towards him being a productive player this year...

Leahmic223
10-17-2007, 05:25 PM
pfft...he was the best sack number guy because he was a situational player. best edge rusher is a debate that i don't want to get into, but here it goes...he got 4, 4, and 5 sacks. his best year sack numbers-wise was when they told him to go in on obvious pass downs, pin your ears back and get to the quarterback. one job. mario had 4.5 with all that he's had to deal with. my pick is mario, but i'm sure you've got a retort so i'll let you jump in with whatever you've got

Exactly, its easier to get sacks when you ar going in on 3rd and 12 and you know its going to be a pass play. He didn't have to deal with 1st and 10, because a DE can't just go all out on the QB, he may fly right past the RB and give him a gap. Even as a situational guy he had 4 sacks, Mark Anderson was Da Bears situational pass rusher last year and he had 12. Yet Mario had 10 more hurries than he did.

PapaL
10-17-2007, 06:00 PM
Babin was our best passer rusher per the numbers last year; fact.

We sucked at rushing the passer last year; fact.

Everything else is pure speculation.

real
10-17-2007, 08:29 PM
by no means do i believe anyone is so blind to see that mario williams is by far a more valuable player and a better pass rusher than jason babin.

Could care less about the stats...

Babin was our best pass rusher....

RamRod
10-17-2007, 09:21 PM
half of nothing equals nothen...

The Pencil Neck
10-18-2007, 01:11 AM
Could care less about the stats...

Babin was our best pass rusher....

By how much?

Leahmic223
10-18-2007, 03:20 AM
Could care less about the stats...

Babin was our best pass rusher....

Really now? I wonder why the guy cant see the field in Seatlle then on a team that needed pass rushers.

This team seems to have progressed without Babin so I don't get the whole 'Best Pass Rusher'. Even when I saw him on the field I never thought that. Yeah he looked good in preseason games...preseason. Mario Williams is the better DE though.

PapaL
10-18-2007, 05:24 AM
as long as we are saying 'per the numbers' then sure, babin was the 'best' pass rusher because he had 1/2 a sack more than williams. wink.

it's silly to watch people cling to numbers as is if that's all that mattered.

by no means do i believe anyone is so blind to see that mario williams is by far a more valuable player and a better pass rusher than jason babin.

my line of thought leads me to believe we did not give up our best pass rusher for michael boulware. opinion.

Maybe I should have been a little clearer and added this to end of my previous post:

:sarcasm:

Half a pile of manure smells just as bad as the whole pile.

*wink* 10-4 Good Buddy; Read you LAC.

badboy
10-18-2007, 03:39 PM
I think in the Babin trade, we traded away our best pass rusher...

Doesn't mean it was a bad trade, but time will tell....I think we should offer two firsts and get him back.

buddyboy
10-18-2007, 04:35 PM
I think a big reason why people don't like Babin, even if they don't consciously realize it is the amount of picks we invested into him. Yes, we put too many picks into Babin, and no, he might not ever live up to the cost.

Personally, when the Texans made the Babin-Bouleware trade, I thought that it had the potential to be one of those big Texans history moments. Not in a good way. Like, "Remember back when the Texans traded for Buchanon?". And "Remember when the Texans got Tony Boselli?" and "Remember when we drafted David Carr with our number one pick and threw him to the wolves?"

That's the kind of thing that I was scared could happen. "Remember when we traded Babin away?" Babin showed flashes. Maybe not in his first three years, but the simple fact is that being and OLB in the 3-4 probably slowed his progress. In FIRST year back at his natural position and with LIMITED playing time, he recorded 5 sacks, a team high (which is kinda sad). Basically, I treated him as a rookie almost. He just got back to his natural position and we were already beginning to see upside in him.

Bouleware...we'll see what happens. I HOPE that this doesn't become one of those "Remember when..." moments in Houston Texans history...

Leahmic223
10-18-2007, 04:42 PM
I think a big reason why people don't like Babin, even if they don't consciously realize it is the amount of picks we invested into him. Yes, we put too many picks into Babin, and no, he might not ever live up to the cost.

Personally, when the Texans made the Babin-Bouleware trade, I thought that it had the potential to be one of those big Texans history moments. Not in a good way. Like, "Remember back when the Texans traded for Buchanon?". And "Remember when the Texans got Tony Boselli?" and "Remember when we drafted David Carr with our number one pick and threw him to the wolves?"

That's the kind of thing that I was scared could happen. "Remember when we traded Babin away?" Babin showed flashes. Maybe not in his first three years, but the simple fact is that being and OLB in the 3-4 probably slowed his progress. In FIRST year back at his natural position and with LIMITED playing time, he recorded 5 sacks, a team high (which is kinda sad). Basically, I treated him as a rookie almost. He just got back to his natural position and we were already beginning to see upside in him.

Bouleware...we'll see what happens. I HOPE that this doesn't become one of those "Remember when..." moments in Houston Texans history...

Speaking of Buchanon...dude is playing really well in Tampa...

real
10-18-2007, 04:44 PM
Buchanon's only problem is that he has no heart...

Other than that he's a good football player...

76Texan
10-18-2007, 04:47 PM
I think a big reason why people don't like Babin, even if they don't consciously realize it is the amount of picks we invested into him. Yes, we put too many picks into Babin, and no, he might not ever live up to the cost.

Personally, when the Texans made the Babin-Bouleware trade, I thought that it had the potential to be one of those big Texans history moments. Not in a good way. Like, "Remember back when the Texans traded for Buchanon?". And "Remember when the Texans got Tony Boselli?" and "Remember when we drafted David Carr with our number one pick and threw him to the wolves?"

That's the kind of thing that I was scared could happen. "Remember when we traded Babin away?" Babin showed flashes. Maybe not in his first three years, but the simple fact is that being and OLB in the 3-4 probably slowed his progress. In FIRST year back at his natural position and with LIMITED playing time, he recorded 5 sacks, a team high (which is kinda sad). Basically, I treated him as a rookie almost. He just got back to his natural position and we were already beginning to see upside in him.

Bouleware...we'll see what happens. I HOPE that this doesn't become one of those "Remember when..." moments in Houston Texans history...I hear what you're saying.

But this trade, I don't think will have much significance.
Babin is a good player, but most likely won't make the pro-bowl.
He's not playing right now anyway.

BTW, Buchanon is playing pretty decent for the Bucs.

Wolf
10-21-2007, 09:57 PM
yep just found this thread. Boulware laid some wood on a play today , just sadly it was on ST and not at starting safety.I guess I had my hopes that he'd be somewhat of an upgrade with what we have, but ....like Vinny said .earlier what we have seen in coverage wasn't pretty.



Babin still hasn't done anything in seattle, I am not sure if he is playing but his stats are nothing

so this trade is pretty even so far

threetoedpete
10-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Dude.

Whatever.

You're not talking about difference makers. Babin wouldn't have given us that much more than what Boulware has given us so far and Boulware still has the possibility of giving us more. We would have had to cut Cochran or Anderson (or both), both of which have been OK in spot duty, and we still would have had to find someone to play strong safety behind CC.

The Boulware trade was good.

We got more than a six pack and a ham sandwich out of the deal. We got to sniff someone who was high on our board at one time. There is no dening that he is a great athlete. Babins hit his peak. We don't run the 3-4. And he was a train wreck standing up at linebacker. The fact that the hawks let you have a peek at all at a prospect means we owe them. Not visa versa. It was a great trade.

threetoedpete
10-21-2007, 10:09 PM
double post