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View Full Version : Icing the Kicker?


jerek
10-09-2007, 09:34 AM
There was some discussion in the Bills/Cowgirls thread especially about icing the kicker. We've already seen this in the NFL 3 times this year--2 of them successfully and it's one of ESPiN's (credit to whoever first coined that) biggest talking points right now.

Do you think this practice is fair game, and if not, how would you change it?

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 09:39 AM
it's part of the game. icing shouldn't effect a really good kicker.

jerek
10-09-2007, 09:43 AM
I think it's fair. As some noted in the other thread, it's not new to sport, can be a vital part of sport and coaches should be able to retain judicious use of their timeouts. There is nothing like the feeling of going to the line with a basketball game hanging in the balance and then an opposing coach calling a timeout to let you think about it. It only heightens the dramatic qualities we love about competition and sport.

Besides, the problem inherent in trying to restrict this practice is that it will quickly become fuzzy to police. How much time will be allowable before the snap/lineup to call a timeout? What if a coach notices that he has 12 men on the field? What if the coach deliberately puts 12 men on the field to allow him the "ice" timeout? What if he believes the opposing team is faking it or wants to call a timeout to address any other potential play/personnel concerns?

Essentially ... how in the world will NFL referees be able to restrict this practice without significantly impacting a team's ability to play basic, honest football in a game's most crucial moment?

DiapHer
10-09-2007, 09:45 AM
For some kickers it doesn't bother them at all, they actually like the extra time to go through their routine.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 09:48 AM
(on coaches that ice the kickers at the last second) “You just go out there and go through your routine. If they call a timeout, they call a timeout. You just line up and do it again. That’s the way that things go. You have to go out there and go through your routine, and not even let that come into your mind.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3739

Maddict5
10-09-2007, 10:07 AM
like i read somewhere: someday soon a coach will call a timeout just before a GWFG snap- the kicker will miss but score the re-kick after the timeout and that should put a stop to it

Mr teX
10-09-2007, 10:28 AM
It's gamemanship at it's finest........ Give that kicker a little more time to tense up & ray finkle it to the right/left.

kastofsna
10-09-2007, 10:59 AM
meh, i don't like the idea of the whistle being blown after the kicker is in motion. icing is fine, but once the kicker starts his windup, too bad, can't blow the whistle.

Brando
10-09-2007, 11:01 AM
Part of the game, no change needed.

jerek
10-09-2007, 12:03 PM
meh, i don't like the idea of the whistle being blown after the kicker is in motion. icing is fine, but once the kicker starts his windup, too bad, can't blow the whistle.

I don't think they technically "blow the whistle" or call the timeout after the ball has been snapped. In a deafening stadium in which the referees are not sitting on the ball when it is about to be put into play, it may take a couple of seconds for them to get to the ball and "effect" the timeout, but unless I'm missing something, it is always officially called by the coaches before the play actually commences.

Texan_Bill
10-09-2007, 12:08 PM
If I'm not mistaken, this is the first year that a coach can call a time-out from the sideline...

Yankee_In_TX
10-09-2007, 12:11 PM
People are shafting kickers.

People would be UP IN ARMS and RIOTING if you could ice a QB.

Imagine you call TO, QB makes an amazing 50+ yard TD pass and it didn't count.

Come on, making the kicker kick twice is LAME and needs to be abolished.

Yankee_In_TX
10-09-2007, 12:12 PM
For some kickers it doesn't bother them at all, they actually like the extra time to go through their routine.

We're not talking icing the kicker, we're talking the kicker having to kick twice, I think there's a difference?


*edit*

if Kickers don't mind it, then I don't. I guess I ASSume they wouldn't want to kick twice.

Vinny
10-09-2007, 12:14 PM
like i read somewhere: someday soon a coach will call a timeout just before a GWFG snap- the kicker will miss but score the re-kick after the timeout and that should put a stop to it That's exactly what is going to happen one of these days....stuff tends to even out over the long haul.

meh, i don't like the idea of the whistle being blown after the kicker is in motion. icing is fine, but once the kicker starts his windup, too bad, can't blow the whistle.the refs won't accept a time out once the ball is snapped....it takes a few seconds for the ref to get the time out in...hence the small delay and the kick going off.

Besides...you can call a time out at any time if you have one. I don't know why anyone would want to change this. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Specnatz
10-09-2007, 12:23 PM
That's exactly what is going to happen one of these days....stuff tends to even out over the long haul.

the refs won't accept a time out once the ball is snapped....it takes a few seconds for the ref to get the time out in...hence the small delay and the kick going off.

Besides...you can call a time out at any time if you have one. I don't know why anyone would want to change this. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

This is what gets me, no one complains when a timeout is called because the offense is in hurry up and the defense is about to get a penalty so why the big deal if a timeout is called at anytime before the ball is snapped even if the kicker is out there.

Wussifying football one timeout at a time.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 12:28 PM
It's gamemanship at it's finest........ Give that kicker a little more time to tense up & ray finkle it to the right/left.
laces out.

bah007
10-09-2007, 12:30 PM
like i read somewhere: someday soon a coach will call a timeout just before a GWFG snap- the kicker will miss but score the re-kick after the timeout and that should put a stop to it

I cant wait for this to happen.

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 12:35 PM
People are shafting kickers.

People would be UP IN ARMS and RIOTING if you could ice a QB.

Imagine you call TO, QB makes an amazing 50+ yard TD pass and it didn't count.

Come on, making the kicker kick twice is LAME and needs to be abolished.

Agreed. They may as well just go ahead and put an end to it now. According to the Pro-Icing crowd, eventually the kicker will hit the second one after missing the first one, and the coach will never do it again. So why not just banish it now?

I am all for letting the defense take a timeout before the kick goes up.... but I don't agree with the timeout being called in such a way that it negates a live play. I call it a loophole in the system, and a glitch that needs to be worked out.

jerek
10-09-2007, 12:42 PM
Agreed. They may as well just go ahead and put an end to it now. According to the Pro-Icing crowd, eventually the kicker will hit the second one after missing the first one, and the coach will never do it again. So why not just banish it now?

I am all for letting the defense take a timeout before the kick goes up.... but I don't agree with the timeout being called in such a way that it negates a live play. I call it a loophole in the system, and a glitch that needs to be worked out.

Okay, so you want a change--how do you institute that without creating a greater injustice/imbalance in the rules?

Does the referee stay within arm's length of the ball?

Do we require coaches to actually call the timeout well before the center even puts his hand on the ball (again, negating their ability to implement many perfectly good other football strategies)

You don't like the rule, fine--so how do you change it without making things worse?

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 12:46 PM
Okay, so you want a change--how do you institute that without creating a greater injustice/imbalance in the rules?

Does the referee stay within arm's length of the ball?

Do we require coaches to actually call the timeout well before the center even puts his hand on the ball (again, negating their ability to implement many perfectly good other football strategies)

You don't like the rule, fine--so how do you change it without making things worse?

I am not going to sit here and work out the kinks, since I actually do have better things to do. The NFL people who get paid to look at this sort of thing know tons more than I do about rule changing.

As a fan, I can just sit here in my chair and complain. We all do it.

Vinny
10-09-2007, 12:55 PM
I am not going to sit here and work out the kinks, since I actually do have better things to do. The NFL people who get paid to look at this sort of thing know tons more than I do about rule changing.

As a fan, I can just sit here in my chair and complain. We all do it.
this isn't rocket science....if you have a time out you can use it before the ball is snapped - it's always been like that in football. Why would you want to change something that will alter much more than just a kick? If you change how you can use a time out for kicks it will inevitably change something else in the game.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 12:56 PM
this isn't rocket science....if you have a time out you can use it before the ball is snapped.

yup. :specnatz:

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 12:59 PM
this isn't rocket science....if you have a time out you can use it before the ball is snapped - it's always been like that in football. Why would you want to change something that will alter much more than just a kick? If you change how you can use a time out for kicks it will inevitably change something else in the game.

It wouldn't change much of anything. I am not going to go into specifics on this fine Tuesday morning in which I am writing a term paper.

If they are going to call a timeout, it needs to be done before the kicker is set, or in such a way that the ball could not be snapped before the timeout took effect.

That is all.

Mr teX
10-09-2007, 01:00 PM
People are shafting kickers.

People would be UP IN ARMS and RIOTING if you could ice a QB.

Imagine you call TO, QB makes an amazing 50+ yard TD pass and it didn't count.

Come on, making the kicker kick twice is LAME and needs to be abolished.

You're making it seem as if that's the goal of the coaches; to make them kick it twice. In reality, it's only mind games & truthfully all they're trying to do is elongate the tense situation for the kicker, same as before when they didn't call the TO's so close to the snap of the ball.

The ball only goes up b/c the kickers have to be focused on their mechanics & so they go ahead & follow thru. With games on the line, they can't get caught up in trying to anticipate when a coach is going to call TO b/c if they did, the threat of it has already done it's job; which is taken some of their focus away from making the kick.

They just need to go out their prepared for it, plan to go up there & kick @ least 3 kicks, treat the 1st 2 as practice if it comes to that.

jerek
10-09-2007, 01:01 PM
I am not going to sit here and work out the kinks, since I actually do have better things to do. The NFL people who get paid to look at this sort of thing know tons more than I do about rule changing.

As a fan, I can just sit here in my chair and complain. We all do it.

Ah, a rant. Well that is fine, but I was always under the impression that you are a thinking sort. Further it seems strange to complain about in a discussion forum without offering an opinion as to how it should be made better, or to qualify complaining as a use of your valuable time but leaving the fixing of a problem to someone else. But, I won't keep you from whatever it is you need to be doing. :)

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Ah, a rant. Well that is fine, but I was always under the impression that you are a thinking sort. Further it seems strange to complain about in a discussion forum without offering an opinion as to how it should be made better, or to qualify complaining as a use of your valuable time but leaving the fixing of a problem to someone else. But, I won't keep you from whatever it is you need to be doing. :)

I am thinking about the grade I want on this term paper.

I find it odd that you think it strange for someone to complain and then not offer up a better alternative. If you have ever read this message board before, you would think differently.

I appreciate the sarcasm... but I have already put down my material and am now fixated on this worthless thread (and a few others). That is the effect that this board has on me.

TheCD
10-09-2007, 01:09 PM
It's perfectly legal. You know it's probably going to happen. Why wouldn't a team be able to use their time out whenever they want? Doesn't make sense to me.

Besides, the odds are against icing the kicker. Kickers have a high success rate following a time out.

Farough
10-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Well maybe they should try kicking it a few seconds earlier then they normally do, that way the coach won't be ready to call the time out.

Maddict5
10-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Well maybe they should try kicking it a few seconds earlier then they normally do, that way the coach won't be ready to call the time out.


yeah rush the kick.. the opposing coach would hate to see that:user:

DiapHer
10-09-2007, 02:05 PM
We're not talking icing the kicker, we're talking the kicker having to kick twice, I think there's a difference?


*edit*

if Kickers don't mind it, then I don't. I guess I ASSume they wouldn't want to kick twice.

My post had everything to do with this thread. It doesn't matter if they swing their foot, stand there waiting for the snap and hold or just ran out to the field when the time-out is called. They simply just go back through their routine of trying to hit the ball solid. This is a "game" time-outs are part of that "game", however they are used it is a kickers job to deal with that.

Noblesse Oblige
10-09-2007, 02:07 PM
meh, i don't like the idea of the whistle being blown after the kicker is in motion. icing is fine, but once the kicker starts his windup, too bad, can't blow the whistle.

agree wholeheartedly

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 02:18 PM
meh, i don't like the idea of the whistle being blown after the kicker is in motion. icing is fine, but once the kicker starts his windup, too bad, can't blow the whistle.

we already have replay, so this is plausible although defining when 'in motion' starts is sure to generate some debate.... when does the windup start? etc.

what would the punishment for calling the timeout once the kicker started his motion be? rekick? that'd be exactly what the timeout-calling coach wanted anyway. free three points?

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 02:19 PM
we already have replay, so this is plausible although defining when 'in motion' starts is sure to generate some debate.... when does the windup start? etc.

what would the punishment for calling the timeout once the kicker started his motion be? rekick? that'd be exactly what the timeout-calling coach wanted anyway. free three points?

How about a 15 yard penalty.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 02:20 PM
How about a 15 yard penalty.
assessed how?

TexansLucky13
10-09-2007, 02:26 PM
I was kidding about the 15 yard penalty.

I think we have completely over-analyzed this situation. I think that if the timeout is called in time for the play to be stopped, it should be allowed. But if the kick is in the air when the timeout is called, it should be disregarded. That is a simple rule to eliminate icing.

GlassHalfFull
10-09-2007, 02:27 PM
MJD's Debriefing on Fanhouse was on this subject today (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/tag/TheDebriefing/)

Because I am getting sick of this "Let's call time-out right before the other guy kicks so he has to do it twice" routine. It is the most annoying trend in sports since people started writing letters to Barbaro.
...
The European Ryder Cup team did not have a way to force Justin Leonard make that 45-foot putt in 1999 at Brookline twice. Craig Ehlo didn't have a way to force Michael Jordan make this shot twice. Dennis Eckersley did not have a way to force Kirk Gibson to hit this home run twice...

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 02:29 PM
Just call it poor sportsmanship, dishonorable, etc. you don't have to make a rule about it.

Vinny
10-09-2007, 02:49 PM
I was kidding about the 15 yard penalty.

I think we have completely over-analyzed this situation. I think that if the timeout is called in time for the play to be stopped, it should be allowed. But if the kick is in the air when the timeout is called, it should be disregarded. That is a simple rule to eliminate icing.well, you totally misunderstand this then...because that isn't happening. That isn't allowed and never has been allowed. The coaches are calling the time out before the kick is snapped...it just takes a few seconds to get to the ball. There has not been one single time out accepted after the snap of the ball....this isn't basketball where you can call a time out in the middle of the action.

real
10-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Lol...

real
10-09-2007, 02:54 PM
we already have replay, so this is plausible although defining when 'in motion' starts is sure to generate some debate.... when does the windup start? etc.

what would the punishment for calling the timeout once the kicker started his motion be? rekick? that'd be exactly what the timeout-calling coach wanted anyway. free three points?


Kicker cannot start "his motion" until the ball is snapped...

That'd be a false start...

real
10-09-2007, 03:00 PM
like i read somewhere: someday soon a coach will call a timeout just before a GWFG snap- the kicker will miss but score the re-kick after the timeout and that should put a stop to it

That has happened before...

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 03:01 PM
Kicker cannot start "his motion" until the ball is snapped...

That'd be a false start...
...and truroyalty wins the thread.

Vinny
10-09-2007, 03:02 PM
Lol...maybe we should clear the field of all the players and tell the fans to be quiet so the kicker can concentrate. That sounds like a good way to be "fair" to these poor kickers who have to use all that energy slapping at that heavy football twice in a matter of 2 mins. Perhaps we can let him drink an energy drink between kicks so he won't feel so bad being overworked as well.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 03:06 PM
no, redbull gives you wings, and i'm pretty sure wings are banned in the nfl.

Vinny
10-09-2007, 03:09 PM
no, redbull gives you wings, and i'm pretty sure wings are banned in the nfl.yeah, but these mean time outs are really not fair to these poor kickers. This insane policy of them kicking twice has to end...at least we can give them an energy drink so they can have the strength to get a second kick off.

powerfuldragon
10-09-2007, 03:16 PM
yeah, but these mean time outs are really not fair to these poor kickers. This insane policy of them kicking twice has to end...at least we can give them an energy drink so they can have the strength to get a second kick off.
oh... right. why not capri sun and orange slices?

real
10-09-2007, 03:18 PM
Maybe they should be carried on and off the field as to not put any extra pressure on their kicking foot...

All energy must be preserved...

Farough
10-09-2007, 05:26 PM
yeah rush the kick.. the opposing coach would hate to see that:user:

I'm not sayin rush the kick, but they are always set up for about 4 or 5 seconds before they actually kick the ball... When you get set up, kick it and not wait the extra few seconds that you don't have to. Because on a kickoff if theres 1 second left, 2 more seconds won't really make a difference anyways.

Speedy
10-09-2007, 07:59 PM
Don't have a problem with icing the kicker at all. If you've got the timeouts, use them.

I do, however, think that the timeouts should go back to being called only by the players on the field instead of a coach on the sideline 25 yards away.

Maddict5
10-10-2007, 01:30 PM
I'm not sayin rush the kick, but they are always set up for about 4 or 5 seconds before they actually kick the ball... When you get set up, kick it and not wait the extra few seconds that you don't have to. Because on a kickoff if theres 1 second left, 2 more seconds won't really make a difference anyways.


i was just messing with ya man.. i know what you mean

Maddict5
10-10-2007, 01:32 PM
That has happened before...


i remember it happened during the pats-falcs last yr before half-time.. koenen missed the first but made the re-kick