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View Full Version : OL on thin ice .


Honoring Earl 34
10-05-2007, 01:10 PM
I think the next time we can't convert on a 3rd and short , it's time for White or Studdard to play .

I'm thinking in a battle of wills , our guards may lack in that area .

I think Mike F left his best years in Green Bay .

I am almost of the mindset , actually I've always have been ... there still is some weeds in the garden . Meaning there's only a few players from that 2-14 team I'd keep .

Any ideas on this or Dayne is just slow as molasses in the south pole and can't hit the hole .

eriadoc
10-05-2007, 01:25 PM
Dayne is an elephant who thinks he's a gazelle.

Center is a problem, and left tackle could be shored up. The other three spots are not bad. Unfortunately, it only takes one player to make the entire unit look bad.

real
10-05-2007, 01:36 PM
The O-line definitely has a bulk of the blame for not being able to pick up that short yardage when we need it...

At the same time, Having Dayne back there didn't help...

threetoedpete
10-05-2007, 01:38 PM
I think the next time we can't convert on a 3rd and short , it's time for White or Studdard to play .

I'm thinking in a battle of wills , our guards may lack in that area .

I think Mike F left his best years in Green Bay .

I am almost of the mindset , actually I've always have been ... there still is some weeds in the garden . Meaning there's only a few players from that 2-14 team I'd keep .

Any ideas on this or Dayne is just slow as molasses in the south pole and can't hit the hole .

Well I've beat on him prety good this week. If it's rust, ok. But we just might be getting close to the Petey zone with our centers. They don't like playing rookies as a rule. If we see White, it's prety bad.

Vinny
10-05-2007, 01:41 PM
Dayne is a marginal back who is barely in the league and not fit to start....other than needing Green to come back and needing a nasty center with a mean streak, this offense is good enough to win their share of battles. The other guys get paid to win too.....you win some, you lose some....but it's hard to win your battles when you are missing all your skill guys and you roll into the game with a washed up Center.

infantrycak
10-05-2007, 01:49 PM
They don't like playing rookies as a rule. If we see White, it's prety bad.

This is White's 2nd year.

Dayne is living proof of bigger doesn't mean better at short yardage. At three different clubs now (with three different OL's) he has failed to demonstrate any knack for short yardage or goal line situations.

threetoedpete
10-05-2007, 01:59 PM
or Studdard to play

Ooops my bad.

Double Barrel
10-05-2007, 02:27 PM
The O-line definitely has a bulk of the blame for not being able to pick up that short yardage when we need it...

At the same time, Having Dayne back there didn't help...

Word. Even Winston said after last game that not converting 3rd and short is on the offensive line.

I think we'd have more luck just letting Schaub throw for it in these situations. At least give him the chance half of the time. It can't be worse than what we saw last week - three and out way too often.

michaelm
10-05-2007, 02:34 PM
They don't like playing rookies as a rule.


Did you get this inside scoop from Mario, DeMeco, OD, Spencer, Winston and Wali Lundy last year, or Amobi and JJ this year???
And if your answer is that those guys played out of necessity, well... answer the door, necessity's knocking...

badboy
10-05-2007, 02:53 PM
How have Mike Sherman's guys done so far (former Packer players)?

Goldensilence
10-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Might be time to look at if it's third and short .....pass for the first down. You'd ideally like to run to be able to get those but it's looking like right now our running game isn't where it needs to be. Schaub is looking more and more like the right decision at QB for now and the future might as well let him engineer a way to get those critical third and shorts...if it means passing fine. I really could care less just those third and shorts are not things that should be consistently stalling drives.

Honoring Earl 34
10-05-2007, 03:05 PM
I see a problem in situations that win games ( 3rd and 1 yd ) . These are things good teams do .

My hunch is Chester is a wishy washy player . Am I crazy or did he not block anyone on that screen .... I think he was the lead blocker .

In my mind , this is a problem that's been going on for awhile . It's a talent vs production thing that'll kill you if you hang on ( I did'nt mention Carr ) .

Runner
10-05-2007, 04:00 PM
but it's hard to win your battles when you are missing all your skill guys and you roll into the game with a washed up Center.


True - I don't think this is all on the players. The coaches, who have made some astute personnel moves, have also made some questionable ones. Entering the season with (arguably) one NFL caliber player at center and running back is one of the latter.

Rex King
10-05-2007, 06:02 PM
I disagree on this one. How would any team do if they had the injuries we did? Say the Colts lost Addai, Wayne, and Harrison? Or the Titans lost Brown and whatever scrub receivers they've got there now? Do you have any confidence in Lendale White or Chris Henry?

We had a lot of holes to fill. There were only two running backs worth taking in the draft. Besides AP and Marshawn Lynch, none of the others have close to 100 yards rushing total thus far. So Okoye or Lynch? I think it's a no-brainer. In free agency, Ahman Green was the consensus top RB. It wouldn't make sense to blow their wad on two free agent RBs. Last, street free agents? No viable veteran options. They did pick up the consensus top UDFA RB. Perhaps keeping Dayne over another back wasn't the best decision, but he was very productive at the end of the season running behind McKinney and Leach. But I suspect that if Chris Taylor hadn't gone down, he would have become the no. 2 back. Perhaps they could have traded for a back, but again we still need more draft picks, not less.

Flanagan is clearly on the down side of his career, but he's still serviceable. And that's what most back-ups are. They also pointedly kept Chris White on the roster as a project guy.

I'm not sure what else they could have done in those two departments with a limited cap and no extra draft picks to play with.

infantrycak
10-05-2007, 06:38 PM
In free agency, Ahman Green was the consensus top RB. It wouldn't make sense to blow their wad on two free agent RBs. Last, street free agents? No viable veteran options. They did pick up the consensus top UDFA RB.

I like the Green pick-up but can't agree here. Travis Henry was available (yes you have to consider his recent situation)--but he was younger and stellar last year, Thomas Jones for a song, Chris Brown for a song. There were other options--of course at the time they were probably thinking Chris Taylor would be the #2 and Gado off the team, but that has to be chalked up to bad luck. It would have made great sense to bring in Green and then Brown.

Vinny
10-05-2007, 06:59 PM
I like the Green pick-up but can't agree here. Travis Henry was available (yes you have to consider his recent situation)--but he was younger and stellar last year, Thomas Jones for a song, Chris Brown for a song. There were other options--of course at the time they were probably thinking Chris Taylor would be the #2 and Gado off the team, but that has to be chalked up to bad luck. It would have made great sense to bring in Green and then Brown.just to correlate a bit....look what the Pats did with their WR problem....they didn't just fix it, they made sure they didn't get caught like we did with our backs....some people questioned their wisdom about signing so many WR's but hell, look at their passing game now.

nunusguy
10-05-2007, 07:22 PM
Didn't the Pats flip a pass to Vrabel in the EZ the other night vs. Cinci when they couldn't run it in after a couple of shots from inside the 5 ?
Unless Kubiak is set on emulating Woody Hayes, why doesnt he get off of this "3 yards and a cloud of dust" mentality ? He's suppose to be an offensive guru, remember ? We've got TEs with good hands, a FB who can run or catch the ball, etc. C'mon Kubiak, use your offensive-oriented head you're being paid for instead of trying to make some kind of statement about being stubborn.

Vinny
10-05-2007, 07:23 PM
Didn't the Pats flip a pass to Vrabel in the EZ the other night vs. Cinci when they couldn't run it in after a couple of shots from inside the 5 ?
Unless Kubiak is set on emulating Woody Hayes, why doesnt he get off of this "3 yards and a cloud of dust" mentality ? He's suppose to be an offensive guru, remember ? We've got TEs with good hands, a FB who can run or catch the ball, etc. C'mon Kubiak, use your offensive-oriented head you're being paid for instead of trying to make some kind of statement about being stubborn.
He's had Schaub throw to the TE and the FB earlier for TD's in the early part of this season....just because we couldn't run the ball in once he is all of a sudden trying to be stubborn?

Rex King
10-05-2007, 07:45 PM
I like the Green pick-up but can't agree here. Travis Henry was available (yes you have to consider his recent situation)--but he was younger and stellar last year, Thomas Jones for a song, Chris Brown for a song. There were other options--of course at the time they were probably thinking Chris Taylor would be the #2 and Gado off the team, but that has to be chalked up to bad luck. It would have made great sense to bring in Green and then Brown.

Okay, I admit I didn't know the contract situation of Jones. But all those guys you mentioned are starting - Henry and Jones went to situations where there was a clear void at RB, just as Green did. I have some doubt they would have signed with us with Green already on board (or vice versa). I also didn't rate Brown very much, though he's doing great this year. Their stringent policy on character possibly precluded them from considering Henry.

nunusguy
10-05-2007, 07:59 PM
He's had Schaub throw to the TE and the FB earlier for TD's in the early part of this season....just because we couldn't run the ball in once he is all of a sudden trying to be stubborn?

Wasn't it our first offensive series of the game when he ran Dayne up the middle 3 straight times and had to punt ? Why do we want to try that strategy again from around the 5 ? It seems to be real obvious by then.
Kubiak seems to be fond of saying you should be able to get a yard in this league when you need it, or something along those lines. I say you do what you have to do from around the 5 to get into the EZ, whatever that is.

Vinny
10-05-2007, 08:01 PM
Wasn't it our first offensive series of the game when he ran Dayne up the middle 3 straight times and had to punt ? Why do we want to try that strategy again from around the 5 ? It seems to be real obvious by then.
Kubiak seems to be fond of saying you should be able to get a yard in this league when you need it, or something along those lines. I say you do what you have to do from around the 5 to get into the EZ, whatever that is.

so what? What does the first series have to do with the goal line stand? In football you can either run the ball or pass the ball...it's not like there are 12 different ways to get the ball upfield. I have no problem with trying to pound out a yard...if Schaub throws a pick there everyone screams about how we are supposed to be a running team and it's pathetic that we don't even try to pound it in.

nunusguy
10-05-2007, 08:33 PM
so what? What does the first series have to do with the goal line stand? In football you can either run the ball or pass the ball...it's not like there are 12 different ways to get the ball upfield. I have no problem with trying to pound out a yard...if Schaub throws a pick there everyone screams about how we are supposed to be a running team and it's pathetic that we don't even try to pound it in.

If Kubiak himself shared your convictions, he would have run it again with Dayne on 4th down instead of the misguided call for a FG attempt, and I think that goes even if the kick had been successful. Or he would have run Dayne up the middle on the 3rd down instead of the little trick pitch-out to Dayne - makes sense with AH, but not Dayne - lousey %.
Obviously his options were seriously limited with Dayne, so you gotta use a little creativety. He should be able to do that, he's been an OC in the NFL for 10 years or so.
BTW, I still wholeheartedly agree with your philosophy that "running backs are a dime a dozen". Just think if we'd had a chance to draft Peterson this year, and we did, and he'd been injured like Green is. Now that would really be frustrating. The position just has too much contact, which translates into too much risk for such a high investment.

edo783
10-06-2007, 01:35 AM
BTW, I still wholeheartedly agree with your philosophy that "running backs are a dime a dozen".

Sort of looks like we maybe should have picked up 50 cents worth or so the way things are going.

Grams
10-06-2007, 06:56 AM
If Salaam had not held, we would of had a TD.

They should have just spread out the WR's, goosed the center and QB sneak on a quick count for the yard.

Vinny
10-06-2007, 10:05 AM
If Kubiak himself shared your convictions, he would have run it again with Dayne on 4th down instead of the misguided call for a FG attempt, and I think that goes even if the kick had been successful. Or he would have run Dayne up the middle on the 3rd down instead of the little trick pitch-out to Dayne - makes sense with AH, but not Dayne - lousey %.
Obviously his options were seriously limited with Dayne, so you gotta use a little creativety. He should be able to do that, he's been an OC in the NFL for 10 years or so.
BTW, I still wholeheartedly agree with your philosophy that "running backs are a dime a dozen". Just think if we'd had a chance to draft Peterson this year, and we did, and he'd been injured like Green is. Now that would really be frustrating. The position just has too much contact, which translates into too much risk for such a high investment.
eh, I find it hard to be critical of Kubiak's playcalling since he knows his personnel, the match ups and what he thinks the team can excecute better than we do despite our 20/20 hindsight. They may have been setting that play up all day....perhaps he figured the end would crash....could have worked on it all week just for that instance...but as we all know now, the play fell apart. Like any play, if it works he's Johnny Einstein and if it doesn't he's a complete ***** to some of you fans.

Great backs aren't a dime a dozen, but I do think that you don't need to force a pick with a back...probably the easiest position to be "serviceable" at other than at KR.

nunusguy
10-06-2007, 10:49 AM
Great backs aren't a dime a dozen, but I do think that you don't need to force a pick with a back
Well then you've qualified, hedged your origional statement but I'll accept that.

Vinny
10-06-2007, 10:53 AM
Well then you've qualified, hedged your origional statement but I'll accept that.lol...it was a typo. I meant to type "are" and typed "aren't"...sorry

Outside of a player that I may consider a special back, yeah, it's pretty much the easiest position to stock and a position with the most turnover for the most part....so dime a dozen is a good catch phrase and kinda sums up what I think about backs except for a few exceptions.

nunusguy
10-06-2007, 11:31 AM
Outside of a player that I may consider a special back, yeah, it's pretty much the easiest position to stock and a position with the most turnover for the most part....so dime a dozen is a good catch phrase and kinda sums up what I think about backs except for a few exceptions.
Well said - now we're back on the same page.

HJam72
10-06-2007, 03:34 PM
Well, we're short on dime backs too, sort of, but lets trade one for a dozen runningbacks and see if any of 'em can play. :fans:

ObsiWan
10-06-2007, 05:07 PM
While we're talking RBs, someone explain to me why Gado didn't even have one carry? If he's not going to play him, why keep him??

painekiller
10-06-2007, 11:26 PM
I love the fact as Vinny pointed out, no matter what Kubiak calls, when it doesn't work the howling starts about the call. He is damned no matter what when the play fails.

Just like he was the greatest the 1st 2 weeks.

This team is getting closer than it has ever been to a solid contender, injuries have taken out it's top playmakers, yet the snakebite fans cannot acknowledge the changes for the better that have been done.

Andre Davis has been a pleasant surprise, Travis Johnson has been a pleasant surprise to name a few. We have a young defense, that is still adding pieces. We are a few players away on the offense from being scary good.

BTW watch Indy this week to see how they do with Marvin Harrison and Joseph Addia out, not quit as drastic as missing 3 of our top 4 weapons, but 2 out 4 is still a blow.

beerlover
10-07-2007, 12:05 AM
the running game hinges on the offensive line execution. going into the season we had question marks @ both tackle positions & Center. 4 games in we know Eric Winston has a future @ RT but ES will only be serviceable for a limited time & the hole left from McKinneys torn acl is asking a bit much to dominate the trenches. If we lose anymore linemen :ouch: the OL will be on thin ice, you don't win battles without the personel I don't care how inventive the coaching is or who's the RB :bat:

Thorn
10-07-2007, 12:07 AM
We are a few players away on the offense from being scary good.


I completely agree. A good RB and an upgrade or two on the OL, and we have an offense that very few NFL teams will be able to stop.

threetoedpete
10-07-2007, 01:02 AM
If Salaam had not held, we would of had a TD.

They should have just spread out the WR's, goosed the center and QB sneak on a quick count for the yard.

Then we'd be disscussing whether or not to bring back the Z man as a back up or go looking for a veteran. ES held out of necessity. Salaam's not the problem yet. He was beat and he had the option of letting someone get a free shot at MS, or hold. I think, just me now, he made the wise choice.

Agreed with you up there beerlover.