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OzFan
09-30-2007, 11:26 AM
Hi guys,

I was wondering what people think of the draft picks made in 2007. Now we're a few weeks in to the season, I thought it would be nice for an early review.

(1) What did you think were the requirements before the draft?
(2) Straight after the draft did you feel those requirements had been met?
(3) How do you rate each of the picks now the season has started?
(4) If you could turn back time, are there any players that could have been picked (i.e were available when it was Oakland's turn to pick), and didn't, that you think would actually have been better for the team?

Looking forward to reading what you think.

Oz

Marcus
09-30-2007, 11:37 AM
I liked who they picked. No complaints at all.

Now, although I think Amobi will be a stud, if I had it to do over again, I still would have taken Patrick Willis.

Having not one, but two Demeco Ryans' flying around back there would have been downright illegal.

The1ApplePie
09-30-2007, 12:48 PM
I think that Willis should have been the pick at 10 as well. Two great LBs would be sick (look at Ravens, Bears, Pats). IMO DTs are a dime a dozen, but Amobi has been great.

The best pick for the team if he had Oakland's pick would have been either CJ or AD

painekiller
10-01-2007, 05:18 AM
Hi guys,

I was wondering what people think of the draft picks made in 2007. Now we're a few weeks in to the season, I thought it would be nice for an early review.

(1) What did you think were the requirements before the draft?
(2) Straight after the draft did you feel those requirements had been met?
(3) How do you rate each of the picks now the season has started?
(4) If you could turn back time, are there any players that could have been picked (i.e were available when it was Oakland's turn to pick), and didn't, that you think would actually have been better for the team?

Looking forward to reading what you think.

Oz

First off I thought we would trade with Denver, and I was looking at the guys available in mid round. I wanted Staley and an extra Pick. If we stayed in the 10 hole I was thinking best player available in the first, I had Peterson, Landry, Willis on my list of watching, Okoye was someone I had thought would go to the Vikings, the Redskins or the Falcons. When we passed on Willis and took Okoye, I was stunned. I was thinking Willis is the ROY no doubt in my mind and to have two young stud LBs who could both be MIKE or play outside would be huge. It would give the team options.

In the third I was looking at a few guys and Jones wasn't one of them. I had him as a guys to watch in the 2nd day.

I am assume you are asking which guy I would be taking in the 4th at our traded pick, I was watching LB Zak DeOssie. Michael Bush and Paul Soliai (I knew we would pass on him any way with the OKoye pick) had been taken. i also liked Sepulveda but thought a punter in the 4th was luxury we could not afford yet.

After that I am usually lost except for a couple of sleeper at position I think we needed.

Picks and grade based on draft position (time of draft) and then now.

Okoye (B-thought we would need to wait for his development) A+
Jones (D) A+ - he has exceeded my expectation, and shown more speed than I expected by his 40 time.
Bennett (B+) B+
Harrison (F-we needed a FS not a SS and Josh Gattis was available) C
Frye (C) currently a B, we where able to get him to the practice squad and give him time, I would be trying him at all line position, center included.
Studdard (D) A he has shown me a better understanding of the game and his looked solid in preseason, he could push to be a starter next season
Diles (F-who is this guy?) B. I am still not sure he has the speed to play, but he might be solid.

My cherry picked draft

1) Willis
3 ) Jason Hill Washington St. (and I would have been wrong here, and I admit it)
4) before trade down Zak DeOssie after trade down Tim Shaw or Bennett
5a) Kolby Smith or CJ Gaddis
5B) Michael Coe after trade down
6) Adam Koets
7) Mike Otto if I have taken Smith in 5th, Jackie Battle other wise.

This would have given me a young LB crew for next year of Ryans at Will, Willis at Mike, DeOssie at SAM, I believe this would have been super fine and Willis is good enough to move Ryans. Kolby Smith would given me that guy we needed the last 2 weeks. Koets is like Frye in that I believe he needs a little time but I believe he makes the roster not get dropped to PS. Otto can play every OL position and has an attitude, something we are lacking on our line. They are getting closer, and Studdard my add that in a year or two.


So my team in 2009 would have had an OL of Koets, Pitts, Otto, Spencer, Winston. Making the OL strong makes all the other position on offense better. Having a LB corp second to few, would be able to cover the field. So my team would be an improving team. Smith and Kubiak have made the team stronger faster than my way.

ObsiWan
10-01-2007, 06:05 AM
First, an overall assessment:



(1) What did you think were the requirements before the draft?
Like everyone else, we needed DB and WR help. With us getting someone at QB that had pocket presence, I wasn't really worried about the O-line.

(2) Straight after the draft did you feel those requirements had been met?
I was puzzled - but delighted - by the Okoye pick. We really didn't have a need for another D-lineman but he was the best guy on the board. We have our stud WR but failed to get an impact DB guy.

(3) How do you rate each of the picks now the season has started?
The best pick was our #2 choice - Matt Schaub. I'll always consider that to be our #2 pick; especially since some folks wanted us to get Brady Quinn.

Next is our #3 pick Jones; he's picking up the game a lot faster than I thought he would considering he'd only seen small college competition. Why he isn't starting at the #2 WR spot is a little puzzling.

A millisecond behind Jones is Amobi Okoye. To only be 20 yrs old he's holding his own among grown men out there. Four sacks is remarkable but like some of Mario's sacks, the QB has been chased his way by someone else on our D-line. To his credit, he finishes the play.

In Studdard and Frye I think we have linemen of the future. Like Winston last year, it'll take them a season to mature. If we get Brandon Harrison or Fred Bennett (Dunta's understudy) to bloom into steady players that'll be icing on the cake.

(4) If you could turn back time, are there any players that could have been picked (i.e were available when it was Oakland's turn to pick), and didn't, that you think would actually have been better for the team?
There aren't any youngsters that I would swap for the guys that we have now.

This is two pretty good drafts in a row. Let's hope we have one more. Although I'm not really that impressed with this year's crop of seniors. Last year, there was a talent drop off from '06. Next year there will be an even bigger drop off from '07.

nunusguy
10-01-2007, 08:19 AM
To say I'm satisfied with Okoye is a giant understatemet. He's done more than about anybody could have possibly expected of him in his rookie year.
Lets face it, this is the kind of rookie year we expected from last years top
pick, and arguably Okoye may be playing better now than that other DLineman who is now in his second year.
Nevertheless, I gotta wonder if taking another DLineman with the top pick was more important than taking the top CB on the Board ? This is where our
weakness obviously is in the defense, it's in the secondary and in particular with Faggins, though we certaily also have issues at FS.
But Smith went with the BPA concept at #10 and not need I suppose, and really it's tough to argue with that approach over the long-term ?

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 08:24 AM
Hi guys,

I was wondering what people think of the draft picks made in 2007. Now we're a few weeks in to the season, I thought it would be nice for an early review.

(1) What did you think were the requirements before the draft?
(2) Straight after the draft did you feel those requirements had been met?
(3) How do you rate each of the picks now the season has started?
(4) If you could turn back time, are there any players that could have been picked (i.e were available when it was Oakland's turn to pick), and didn't, that you think would actually have been better for the team?

Looking forward to reading what you think.

Oz

i too was delightfully surprised by the okoye pick. that's who i wanted i just figured with the way things were rolling out (ie landry/peterson gone) that willis would be the pick. the jones pick really turned around on me as i was just baffled by it...

okoye- A
schaub- A
jones- A-
bennet- B-
harrison- D-
frye- C
studdard- B+
diles- C

Note: A = doing better than expected, C = doing well as expected, and F = worse than expected.

Okoye - A+

I thought Okoye was a great pick, and he is looking more solid and having a more immediate impact than any other rookie Texans lineman (in its short history).

Schaub - C

He's confident, and he's very capable of getting the ball into receiver's hands. He does this much better than Carr. He also is perfect for the Texans system, which tries to bypass the need for a line with a quick release. When he has needed time, he has tried to force a few balls (to AJ against KC, nearly threw an interception in ATL that was batted down). He also didn't stretch out for the TD this week, but none of this bothers me. This is all part of the learning process, though, and exactly what I expected. Unlike some players who have just raw talent, he clearly has more than that and will do very well for the Texans as time goes on.

Jones - F

I was hoping for a left tackle/defensive tackle/cornerback, which brings up Jones. Why? Receiver was not a concern to me, and its clear after the kind of game that Andre Davis and Kevin Walter had, that receiver was not a concern. Schaub can get the ball in receivers' hands. At this point, I think this was a blown pick and a waste. JJ looked awesome in pre-season, and has not made a dent in Texans history since. He looked blah on special teams and he was not very productive as a receiver. Now he's out. So far, Mathis has done a better job on special teams, and any one of the numerous journeymen receivers have done a decent job.

Instead of Jones, I would have liked for the Texans to have looked into a cornerback or left tackle. I don't have the charts out in front of me, but I know there were options available, and I know these are the two chinks in the Texans armor.

Studdard - C

Has looked awesome on the sidelines, like one of those vikings from Pathfinder. Did anyone else notice that his status has been upgraded? He's no longer in the T-shirt. He's suited up now. Sucks that McKinney had to go IR for that to happen, though...

Edited to add McKinney info.

Porky
10-01-2007, 08:57 AM
Giving Jones an F is laugable. But, am enjoying reading the takes.

Carry on. :texflag:

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 09:02 AM
I must have missed something in the first four games. Please explain what great contribution Jones has added to the Texans since the pre-season ended.

Kaiser Toro
10-01-2007, 09:11 AM
I must have missed something in the first four games. Please explain what great contribution Jones has added to the Texans since the pre-season ended.

Then how is Studdard a B under the methodology above?

Porky
10-01-2007, 09:11 AM
I must have missed something in the first four games. Please explain what great contribution Jones has added to the Texans since the pre-season ended.

Apparently you forgot how he got injured, when he broke a long punt return and brought it back to around the 20. He was also being worked into the rotation at WR, and was about to bring through as a starter. All as a rookie WR from a tiny college playing his first handful of games. Name another 3rd rd WR doing better? Ya, he deserves an F. Get real.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 09:14 AM
Then how is Studdard a B under the methodology above?

Good point. Studdard is a C. I had him as a B simply based on the fact that he was actually suiting up for games now. But that unfortunately has more to do with McKinney being IRed than anything he's shown the coaches.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 09:19 AM
Apparently you forgot how he got injured, when he broke a long punt return and brought it back to around the 20. He was also being worked into the rotation at WR, and was about to bring through as a starter. All as a rookie WR from a tiny college playing his first handful of games. Name another 3rd rd WR doing better? Ya, he deserves an F. Get real.

So the most notable impact is that he's injured? Okoye leads the team in sacks. To me, that's an impact. Entering the rotation is not.

Also, I'm grading this over the first four games. If JJ comes back and changes things around, I'd adjust my grading accordingly, but over the first four games, he hasn't shown anything.

Porky
10-01-2007, 09:38 AM
So the most notable impact is that he's injured? Okoye leads the team in sacks. To me, that's an impact. Entering the rotation is not.

Also, I'm grading this over the first four games. If JJ comes back and changes things around, I'd adjust my grading accordingly, but over the first four games, he hasn't shown anything.

He has only played 2.5 games. You do realize he is injured through no fault of his own no? You do realize most rookie receivers barely see the field no? Ask kastofnsa how Ginn is doing in Miami. Ask Panther fans how Dwayne Jarrett is doing. Oh that's right, he's been inactive the first four games. Well, he's a bust. Ask the 49ers about Jason Hill. Oh wait, he hasn't seen the field either and was selected right after Jacoby. Guess he's a bust too.

Also, saying he did nothing prior to that either shows a lack of knowledge or a bias on your part as that is simply not true.

He has 5 receptions for 59 yards for an 11.8 average per catch. I don't have his return yardage in front of me, but he almost took one to the house, and was within an eyelash of breaking another td or long one - again keeping in perspective this is all in the youngsters first couple of games. So, to say he has done nothing is irrefetably wrong.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 10:09 AM
[QUOTE=Porky;749720]He has only played 2.5 games. You do realize he is injured through no fault of his own no? [QUOTE]

My point exactly. The most significant point of note is that he has been injured. With nothing else to add, that's the grade the dude gets.

[QUOTE=Porky;749720]Also, saying he did nothing prior to that either shows a lack of knowledge or a bias on your part as that is simply not true. [QUOTE]

Lots of players look phenomenal in pre-season. Wali Lundy looked unbelievable during his first pre-season. It's a whole other ball game once the season starts and only the first-team is playing. So to say he is a great player based on those contributions just don't hold water to me. If that makes it a bias, so be it.

infantrycak
10-01-2007, 10:14 AM
Giving Jones an F is laugable. But, am enjoying reading the takes.

Carry on. :texflag:

Yup sure is--as is giving the QB a C after he makes things work with Davis and Walter as starters.

I must have missed something in the first four games. Please explain what great contribution Jones has added to the Texans since the pre-season ended.

74 yd punt return?

real
10-01-2007, 10:15 AM
An F ?

LMAO...C'mon...

Vinny
10-01-2007, 10:18 AM
I think Revis would have been the best pick although he did struggle for the first time yesterday.....he's a big physical corner with return skills. I'm happy with Okoye and think he is a better pick than Willis since I think it is harder to find a CB and a 3 technique Tackle worth a darn than it is to find a good linebacker.

Jones was an astute pick regardless of what the clueless TH says.....jury is out on everyone else.

TexansSeminole
10-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Amobi has overly impressed me. That pick is looking pretty good at this point. 4 sacks 10 tackles at the DT spot is good production. He has also done well, with the line as a whole, in stopping the run. I like the JJ selection, we needed another explosive receiver. Can't really rate any of the other draft picks at this point. Studdard seems to have the right idea by the way he practices...I have heard several good things about how he practices.

Rating Schaub a C is rediculous and its even worse that David Carr was here before him yet some of his fans would still give him a C. Jacoby Jones rated a F as a draft selection is laughable, I agree. Seems like alot of people make dumb comments during the season relative to after the season.

Carr Bombed
10-01-2007, 10:29 AM
I think that Willis should have been the pick at 10 as well. Two great LBs would be sick (look at Ravens, Bears, Pats). IMO DTs are a dime a dozen, but Amobi has been great.

The best pick for the team if he had Oakland's pick would have been either CJ or AD

3 tech DT's that can rush the passer and also have Amobi's athleticism are not a dime a dozen.......they are extremely rare, alot rarer than a probowl LBer.

If Amobi Okoye keeps up his play, he has the chance to be the youngest probowler ever.

Porky
10-01-2007, 10:34 AM
[QUOTE=Porky;749720]He has only played 2.5 games. You do realize he is injured through no fault of his own no? [QUOTE]

My point exactly. The most significant point of note is that he has been injured. With nothing else to add, that's the grade the dude gets.

[QUOTE=Porky;749720]Also, saying he did nothing prior to that either shows a lack of knowledge or a bias on your part as that is simply not true. [QUOTE]

Lots of players look phenomenal in pre-season. Wali Lundy looked unbelievable during his first pre-season. It's a whole other ball game once the season starts and only the first-team is playing. So to say he is a great player based on those contributions just don't hold water to me. If that makes it a bias, so be it.

When did I say anything about the pre-season? If you want to compare preseasons with Lundy, so be it. Jones impact this preseason FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, (ok you get the point) exceeeded anything Wali Lundy did in his rookie preseason. Get real. That's not even close by any means.

Besides, that just obscures the point. I was only talking about the regular season. If your going to crack on the guy for being injured in game 3, then at least make it an imcomplete. To say the guy didn't have any impact in his first 2.5 games is just not correct. You are irrefutably and inarguably wrong on every point you have made regarding Jones.

The1ApplePie
10-01-2007, 10:42 AM
3 tech DT's that can rush the passer and also have Amobi's athleticism are not a dime a dozen.......they are extremely rare, alot rarer than a probowl LBer.

If Amobi Okoye keeps up his play, he has the chance to be the youngest probowler ever.

Name a DT you would rather have over Brian Urlacher

Right, there isn't any. A stud LB trumps any DT in the game.

Not sure about taking Bennet over Hughes in the 3rd either. Best cover corner in the draft, with just sub-par combine stats.

real
10-01-2007, 10:46 AM
Name a DT you would rather have over Brian Urlacher

Right, there isn't any. A stud LB trumps any DT in the game.



I think If I were building a defense I 'd take Warren Sapp in his prime over Urlacher...

Not because I think Sapp is the far greater player, but because the disruption he caused truly made everyone else better...

But that's JMO.

Carr Bombed
10-01-2007, 10:47 AM
Name a DT you would rather have over Brian Urlacher

Right, there isn't any. A stud LB trumps any DT in the game.

Not sure about taking Bennet over Hughes in the 3rd either. Best cover corner in the draft, with just sub-par combine stats.

I hate to break this to you, but we already have our young starting MLB. You know, the guy who one DROY and goes by the name of DeMeco Ryans.

A young Warren Sapp in his prime was every bit of the defensive player that Urlacher is now, if not more..........guess what Amobi Okoye has the chance to be........I actually think he can be better..(he's only 20 and is already playing at a probowl level.)

Stud LBers don't trump any DT in the game. Lineman decide where the line of scrimage is at and how effective LBers are that play behind them. It's no coincidence that Houston has been one of the better run stopping teams this year.

Quick, tell me what San Fran is doing against the run this year...........your right a stud LB trumps any DT in the game. :rolleyes:

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 10:56 AM
When did I say anything about the pre-season? If you want to compare preseasons with Lundy, so be it. Jones impact this preseason FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, (ok you get the point) exceeeded anything Wali Lundy did in his rookie preseason. Get real. That's not even close by any means.

Besides, that just obscures the point. I was only talking about the regular season. If your going to crack on the guy for being injured in game 3, then at least make it an imcomplete. To say the guy didn't have any impact in his first 2.5 games is just not correct. You are irrefutably and inarguably wrong on every point you have made regarding Jones.

Hmmm...I've touched a nerve I wasn't trying to touch. I'm willing to give Jones an Incomplete, but if he is going to be given an Incomplete, then I'd prefer to give Incompletes to the other rookies, but I thought the point was to give an assessment of the first four games, not on his potential for the rest of the season. If I was going to grade potential, I would have given them all A's. I think Okoye, Schaub, Jones, and Studdard have the potential to all do great in the NFL. But my thoughts about their performance over the first four games, that's a different story.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 11:01 AM
Yup sure is--as is giving the QB a C after he makes things work with Davis and Walter as starters.



74 yd punt return?


I'll repeat:

Note: A = doing better than expected, C = doing well as expected, and F = worse than expected.

Schaub - C

He's confident, and he's very capable of getting the ball into receiver's hands. He does this much better than Carr. He also is perfect for the Texans system, which tries to bypass the need for a line with a quick release. When he has needed time, he has tried to force a few balls (to AJ against KC, nearly threw an interception in ATL that was batted down). He also didn't stretch out for the TD this week, but none of this bothers me. This is all part of the learning process, though, and exactly what I expected. Unlike some players who have just raw talent, he clearly has more than that and will do very well for the Texans as time goes on.


So I agree that he did a great job yesterday, and much better than Carr could have ever done. The C means he is doing as well as I expected him to over the first four games. Or did you think he would be less of an impact or do worse than he has been doing?

Carr Bombed
10-01-2007, 11:01 AM
Hmmm...I've touched a nerve I wasn't trying to touch. I'm willing to give Jones an Incomplete, but if he is going to be given an Incomplete, then I'd prefer to give Incompletes to the other rookies, but I thought the point was to give an assessment of the first four games, not on his potential for the rest of the season. If I was going to grade potential, I would have given them all A's. I think Okoye, Schaub, Jones, and Studdard have the potential to all do great in the NFL. But my thoughts about their performance over the first four games, that's a different story.

The only thing I don't understand about your grades is how you can give Schaub a C. That was the only thing that made me do a double take

dalemurphy
10-01-2007, 11:03 AM
I'll repeat:



So I agree that he did a great job yesterday, and much better than Carr could have ever done. The C means he is doing as well as I expected him to over the first four games. Or did you think he would be less of an impact or do worse than he has been doing?

You expected Schaub to complete 75% of his passes?- and throw for over 300 yards without AGreen, AJ, JMathis, Jac. Jones?

real
10-01-2007, 11:12 AM
I'll repeat:



So I agree that he did a great job yesterday, and much better than Carr could have ever done. The C means he is doing as well as I expected him to over the first four games. Or did you think he would be less of an impact or do worse than he has been doing?

Weren't you a Carr homer ?

rollinstone18
10-01-2007, 11:21 AM
The only mistake I see was not drafting or signing Selvin Young as a free agent.

S.Young >D.Walker

HOU-TEX
10-01-2007, 11:25 AM
The only mistake I see was not drafting or signing Selvin Young as a free agent.

S.Young >D.Walker

S. Young > Dayne, Gado, Cook and Walker :specnatz:

real
10-01-2007, 11:29 AM
The C means he is doing as well as I expected him to over the first four games.

1) That makes no sense. If I expect a guy to get 10 sacks in two games and he does it, does that mean he gets a C ? According to your definition it does.


2) I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050



Also, do you remember this thread and this quote:

I think it's going to take Schaub time to develop. I think the team is in development mode.

But IMO, with Carr and the second round draft pick, the Texans go 8-8 next year. So for Matt to be worth the trade, the record should reflect that, which means no less than 9-7. I don't think the Texans will go 9-7. I think they will go more like 5-11 because they are still in development. 5-11 being a worse record than 8-8, I think the Texans have essentially said "screw this year. It just isn't our year."

What about this one:

I think if they really wanted Matt, they would have gotten him. They all had the chance. There must be a reason that those teams chose the quarterbacks they did, and I doubt it was simply that Matt wasn't available. Maybe the problem is that the Texans are the only team who thought Matt was worth two second-round picks.

or this classic:

It's still a house of sand. Even worse, the Texans have a new quarterback with less mobility.

The only way this offense works is Ahman Green. If he can help Salaam/Black/Frye/injured Spencer pick up most of their blocks, then Matt can get the passes off. If Ahman can bring his own blocker and get yardage, then the run-first offense will succeed. However, my instinct is telling me that the Texans are totally off balance without any semblence of a passing game.

That was you three months ago. And now all of a sudden you expected Schaub to be doing what he is doing now. :rolleyes:

I could find a lot of quotes from you that would make you sound totally bogus, but I don't feel the need to post anymore at this point.

Porky
10-01-2007, 11:36 AM
Now, it's all starting to make sense. Thanks guys. lol. Yup, it's all making sense now. :user:

Oh the horror of it all.

Errant Hothy
10-01-2007, 12:12 PM
Harrison (F-we needed a FS not a SS and Josh Gattis was available)

Why is there still such love for Gattis? He has a lated Day 2 pick by J'ville who was cut and NOT signed to their pratice squad. He then sat at home for 2 weeks before the Bears signed him to fill their practice squad after Brown got hurt. He has since been cut and resigned yet again...and after all that people still think that he would have been a better pick then somebody who might have made the 53 man roster here?

I will never understand how some people continue to fixate on bad players and pine away that they wish they were Texans. The NFL has spoken through the actions of it's teams. Gattis was way over-rated, and a borderline NFL player.

I'm not even going to get into the value of a DT versus a LB...sheesh. Or the Schaub argueement.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 12:43 PM
1) That makes no sense. If I expect a guy to get 10 sacks in two games and he does it, does that mean he gets a C ? According to your definition it does.

There is so much to shoot down here, I don't know where to start...

Okay, Real, I'll play it this way. Since the grading system is so difficult to understand (and I'm getting tired of repeating it), let's just call it: Above Average Play, As Expected Play, and Less Than Expected Play.

Okoye is doing better than I expected. That's Above Average Play.

Schaub is doing as well as I expected. That's As Expected Play.

Studdard is doing as well as I expected. That, again, is As Expected Play.

Jacoby is not doing as well as I expected. That's Less Than Expected Play.

If you want to talk along these lines (maybe you think Schaub is playing better than you expected, maybe Jacoby is stellar), feel free to.

And yes, I remember all these posts. I stand by them. I think they make good points and continue to be pertinent. Unless you think Schaub hasn't thrown some interceptions and made some bad play calls. But I think in the games you watch, the Texans never lose...

Also, do you remember this thread and this quote:

think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

I think it's going to take Schaub time to develop. I think the team is in development mode.

But IMO, with Carr and the second round draft pick, the Texans go 8-8 next year. So for Matt to be worth the trade, the record should reflect that, which means no less than 9-7. I don't think the Texans will go 9-7. I think they will go more like 5-11 because they are still in development. 5-11 being a worse record than 8-8, I think the Texans have essentially said "screw this year. It just isn't our year."

Excellent point! I think the team is still in development, and so is Matt. They are 2-2, with a win against a beleaguered KC Chiefs team, and a loss against a Vick-less Falcons team. It's not like they beat the Colts. There is also a huge void at the #2 CB spot that teams will exploit throughout the season. The Texans still have a ways to go before being the ultralords of football you already have them at. Forgive me if I've chosen a more realistic approach.

We just made Joey Harrington look like Mark Bruenell. Joey Harrington, for Christ's sake! The dude was run out of Detroit! He just beat the Texans.

What about this one:

I think if they really wanted Matt, they would have gotten him. They all had the chance. There must be a reason that those teams chose the quarterbacks they did, and I doubt it was simply that Matt wasn't available. Maybe the problem is that the Texans are the only team who thought Matt was worth two second-round picks.

or this classic:

It's still a house of sand. Even worse, the Texans have a new quarterback with less mobility.

The only way this offense works is Ahman Green. If he can help Salaam/Black/Frye/injured Spencer pick up most of their blocks, then Matt can get the passes off. If Ahman can bring his own blocker and get yardage, then the run-first offense will succeed. However, my instinct is telling me that the Texans are totally off balance without any semblence of a passing game.

That was you three months ago. And now all of a sudden you expected Schaub to be doing what he is doing now. :rolleyes:

I haven't wavered. The only way the offense works is Ahman Green. Based on the season so far, it proves my point. With Ahman in, they've had the run game that put them over. Even when replacing him with Dayne, they have still struggled.

And Salaam continues to be beat, and as the games go on, Schaub will start to get sacked more and more. This will get worse as the season goes on until they find a better LT.


I could find a lot of quotes from you that would make you sound totally bogus, but I don't feel the need to post anymore at this point.

Bogus? Why - because I said Matt Schaub would struggle, and he has? Thank you for proving that point. Or is it because I didn't rate him as the greatest thing since Joe Montana?

If you are trying to make the point that he is playing better than I expected, then you must have me mistaken for someone who thought he was a horrible quarterback, which I have never said. I have always taken the position that he will make a great quarterback, but needs time to develop.

I think you are still in the stratosphere where the Texans are going to the SuperBowl and every player is flawless. A third of the season is over. It's time to come down to Earth. They are going to make SOME mistakes, and that's okay. They are going in the right direction, but there is a huge difference between going in the right direction and being the Patriots. It will take time.

Or are you just waiting to call me a Carr-homer again? I think the case is clearly not true, but sticks and stones and all that...

bigbrewster2000
10-01-2007, 01:33 PM
There is so much to shoot down here, I don't know where to start...

Okay, Real, I'll play it this way. Since the grading system is so difficult to understand (and I'm getting tired of repeating it), let's just call it: Above Average Play, As Expected Play, and Less Than Expected Play.

Okoye is doing better than I expected. That's Above Average Play.

Schaub is doing as well as I expected. That's As Expected Play.

Studdard is doing as well as I expected. That, again, is As Expected Play.

Jacoby is not doing as well as I expected. That's Less Than Expected Play.

If you want to talk along these lines (maybe you think Schaub is playing better than you expected, maybe Jacoby is stellar), feel free to.

And yes, I remember all these posts. I stand by them. I think they make good points and continue to be pertinent. Unless you think Schaub hasn't thrown some interceptions and made some bad play calls. But I think in the games you watch, the Texans never lose...



Excellent point! I think the team is still in development, and so is Matt. They are 2-2, with a win against a beleaguered KC Chiefs team, and a loss against a Vick-less Falcons team. It's not like they beat the Colts. There is also a huge void at the #2 CB spot that teams will exploit throughout the season. The Texans still have a ways to go before being the ultralords of football you already have them at. Forgive me if I've chosen a more realistic approach.

We just made Joey Harrington look like Mark Bruenell. Joey Harrington, for Christ's sake! The dude was run out of Detroit! He just beat the Texans.



I haven't wavered. The only way the offense works is Ahman Green. Based on the season so far, it proves my point. With Ahman in, they've had the run game that put them over. Even when replacing him with Dayne, they have still struggled.

And Salaam continues to be beat, and as the games go on, Schaub will start to get sacked more and more. This will get worse as the season goes on until they find a better LT.




Bogus? Why - because I said Matt Schaub would struggle, and he has? Thank you for proving that point. Or is it because I didn't rate him as the greatest thing since Joe Montana?

If you are trying to make the point that he is playing better than I expected, then you must have me mistaken for someone who thought he was a horrible quarterback, which I have never said. I have always taken the position that he will make a great quarterback, but needs time to develop.

I think you are still in the stratosphere where the Texans are going to the SuperBowl and every player is flawless. A third of the season is over. It's time to come down to Earth. They are going to make SOME mistakes, and that's okay. They are going in the right direction, but there is a huge difference between going in the right direction and being the Patriots. It will take time.

Or are you just waiting to call me a Carr-homer again? I think the case is clearly not true, but sticks and stones and all that...

I was going to argue with you but what is the point. You think that what you are saying is right and everyone else is wrong.
If what you are saying only makes sense to you then it might be time to rethink your own arguments.

V Man
10-01-2007, 01:57 PM
Okoye (B-thought we would need to wait for his development) A+
Jones (D) A+ - he has exceeded my expectation, and shown more speed than I expected by his 40 time.
Bennett (B+) B+
Harrison (F-we needed a FS not a SS and Josh Gattis was available) C
Frye (C) currently a B, we where able to get him to the practice squad and give him time, I would be trying him at all line position, center included.
Studdard (D) A he has shown me a better understanding of the game and his looked solid in preseason, he could push to be a starter next season
Diles (F-who is this guy?) B. I am still not sure he has the speed to play, but he might be solid.

.

I was agreeing with you until I got to here. How is that a guy who is sent to practice squad gets a "C" to "B", but the guy drafted a round lower and makes the actual roster is a "D". I would give Studdard at least a B maybe a low A. Many 6th rounders don't even make the practice squad much less the main roster. Heck a couple more games, I wouldn't mind seeing them try Weary at Center and let him play Rt guard.

real
10-01-2007, 02:01 PM
I was going to argue with you but what is the point. You think that what you are saying is right and everyone else is wrong.
If what you are saying only makes sense to you then it might be time to rethink your own arguments.

B-I-N-G-O

TexansSeminole
10-01-2007, 02:04 PM
I was going to argue with you but what is the point. You think that what you are saying is right and everyone else is wrong.
If what you are saying only makes sense to you then it might be time to rethink your own arguments.

Agreed. I was going to start on Texans horror but what is the point? He has contridicted himself and made very questionable arguments is all I am going to say.

real
10-01-2007, 02:07 PM
Agreed. I was going to start on Texans horror but what is the point? He has contridicted himself and made very questionable arguments is all I am going to say.

The fact that he is still saying that Ahman Green is a bigger piece than Schaub is not only puzzling, but it's borderline scary.

TexansSeminole
10-01-2007, 02:24 PM
The fact that he is still saying that Ahman Green is a bigger piece than Schaub is not only puzzling, but it's borderline scary.

I think they are actually both almost equally important in different ways and here is why:

1) Without the addition of Schaub QB play for the Houston Texans would still be like watching your local pee wee football game and without him at QB we would look pretty bad on offense IMO, especially now when we dont have AJ to work with.

2) Without the addition of Ahman Green our rushing attack would probably be the worst in the league.

Basically, I beleive they are both important to have on the field and as additions to the team.

Obviously, Schaub will be around for longer we hope and should provide more long term help.

The main difference between in the two when it relates to this topic is that Schaub has looked pretty darn good with what was expected to be a short list of weapons. Green hasn't proved to do anything spectacular, he just keeps us from looking abysmal running the ball WHEN HE PLAYS.

Second Honeymoon
10-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Matt has done just fine, and as a matter of fact has surpassed any realistic expectations put on him preseason. He has made a few bad throws but, WHO DOESN'T. When you take the loss of his #1 target and #1 running back into account, you can't really expect too much.

Also if you think about it, the playcalling has been pretty bad at times and the clock management by Kubiak has been A TOTAL DISASTER. It reminded me of the 'genius' clock management by Jack Pardee back with the Oilers. What is it about former Aggie head coaches and managing the freaking clock. it's a digital clock and it counts down to 0:00 just like any other clock.

back on topic I think the 2007 draft was a great draft. Okoye. Schaub. Nuff said. You add a potential Pro Bowler at DT for the next 10 years in Okoye and you get a potential Pro Bowler at QB for the next 10 years. Two of the toughest positions to gain stability at. Then when you look at the flashes that Jones has shown on ST and at WR and you have to say we had a good draft. 2 instant impact starters and a possible ST/WR diamond in the rough. How could that not be called a quality draft?

Okoye has done a lot to help improve our pass rush but its still pretty much a joke. Even Travis Johnson is playing well. Mario has shown a pulse every once in a while and Weaver is playing better than last year. Our best pass rush guys are still backups though. It's funny how when someone comes in to spell Mario, they seem to look a lot more active and make more of an impact.....its gettin old but at least the offense is more watchable. thx matt

real
10-01-2007, 02:50 PM
No way is Ahman Green equally as important to this team as Matt Schaub is.


I just can't get down with that.


But I respect you guys opinion, though I terribly disagree.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 02:58 PM
I just think the Texans had a very, very difficult time last year when they didn't have a run game. When they finally could scrape together a run game, they did some amazing things (Colts). In this run-first, make your mark with the run-game team, a successful running back is vital. That's why Kubiak ran the ball three times with Dayne in the opening drive, even though it never panned out. That's why he kept at it when it rarely panned out. It's not a criticism of the Texans. It's just the way Kubiak sets up his game. He builds around the run, and without having that core to build on, he has nothing to go with. The blitzes start coming, teams stack the box, and they go nowhere. It's not a criticism of Schaub. I just disagree. I think this year Ahman Green is the linchpin. The Texans offensive system hinges on a successful run game. And so far this year, when they don't have that run game, they are 0-2.

TexansSeminole
10-01-2007, 03:01 PM
No way is Ahman Green equally as important to this team as Matt Schaub is.


I just can't get down with that.


But I respect you guys opinion, though I terribly disagree.

Depends on in which case you mean important. I think we would be at a greater disadvantage if Schaub weren't playing relative to if Green wasn't playing just because the QB is the most important position and can easily give away the ball. However without Ahman Green it is obvious we will rush for very little yards on what seems like any defense. The running game is so important for us and if we need one guy to get back in order for it to be relatively existant than that guy is extremely valuable. It is difficult to compare their importance but it is obvious that they are both very important.

real
10-01-2007, 03:10 PM
And so far this year, when they don't have that run game, they are 0-2.

We also haven't won a game without Andre Johnson.

We also haven't won when McKinney and Jacoby haven't played the entire game.

We also haven't won a game where our defensive line hasn't recorded more than one sack.

We also haven't won a game when we haven't intercepted a pass.

We also haven't won a game when we've lost the turnover battle.

We also haven't won a game when we've played bad.

What was your point again ?

I'm sure I could come up with a million and one things we didn't do in the losses that we did do in the wins.

real
10-01-2007, 03:17 PM
Depends on in which case you mean important. I think we would be at a greater disadvantage if Schaub weren't playing relative to if Green wasn't playing just because the QB is the most important position and can easily give away the ball. However without Ahman Green it is obvious we will rush for very little yards on what seems like any defense. The running game is so important for us and if we need one guy to get back in order for it to be relatively existant than that guy is extremely valuable. It is difficult to compare their importance but it is obvious that they are both very important.

I think Ahman is important, but I think you guys are looking at the surface AKA what is easily viewed.

You see Ahman not in the line-up and you see what you percieve to be a struggling running game.

How do you guys know that the McKinney lost didn't hurt us just as much ? Our running game has struggled without him as well.

Also without Andre on the field defenses may not be afraid of our recievers so therefore they can pay more attention to the run.

Without McKinney at Center it seems we are struggling to get a good push when we need short yardage.



What is easily viewed is not always the correlation in football. There are so many different variables that it is hard to make simple blanket statements about one player. If Ahman Green is the reason we aren't winning then someone needs to tell him it's o.k to do witch craft when he's not suiting up.

threetoedpete
10-01-2007, 03:28 PM
Giving Jones an F is laugable. But, am enjoying reading the takes.

Carry on. :texflag:

That makes two of us.

Look everyone cried about the #2 and 3's in here for five years. They made their chioce with the first two picks. They locked up an elite first step DT. and I dunno and in wasn't in the war room, but as soon as Okoye fell into their laps Rick Smith hung up the phone on Denver. They had to have weapons for the New QB. That wasn't a luxuary it was a nessecity. They had to get the roll up doubles off of Dre. With J.J. in the slot, that does it. The last thing they wanted to do was put the new guy in the pocket without weapons having to squeeze prayers into the middle of double and triple rolled up coverages.

I still have my mock from last spring where is yours ?

Er not you Porky the thread starter and his fellow einstein asst GMs.

badboy
10-01-2007, 03:40 PM
Ain't it great to have young players that might be probowlers? Okoye, JJ, and repeaters AJ, Ryans and Mathis. Mario might make it yet and if Andre Davis continues to go BERSERK in the backfield, he has a shot.

I agree with Vinny that a CB like Revis would have been my choice in the draft, but I'm very down with having a 20 year old pro bowler at the end of this season. If SPencer is back in a couple weeks, we will start to get an idea if he will be the LT of the future which would sure change the next draft for me. Bennett seems to be a nickle in most opinions, but we can use one of those to delete one of our weaker guys. I am really looking forward to what Smith will do in F/A with some $ in the check book this off season. I just hope there are some good choices available. Asante Samuel has 6 tackles and one interception thru 3 games. hmmm.

Texans Horror
10-01-2007, 03:45 PM
We also haven't won a game without Andre Johnson.

We also haven't won when McKinney and Jacoby haven't played the entire game.

We also haven't won a game where our defensive line hasn't recorded more than one sack.

We also haven't won a game when we haven't intercepted a pass.

We also haven't won a game when we've lost the turnover battle.

We also haven't won a game when we've played bad.

What was your point again ?

I'm sure I could come up with a million and one things we didn't do in the losses that we did do in the wins.

I think Ahman is important, but I think you guys are looking at the surface AKA what is easily viewed.

You see Ahman not in the line-up and you see what you percieve to be a struggling running game.

How do you guys know that the McKinney lost didn't hurt us just as much ? Our running game has struggled without him as well.

Also without Andre on the field defenses may not be afraid of our recievers so therefore they can pay more attention to the run.

Without McKinney at Center it seems we are struggling to get a good push when we need short yardage.



What is easily viewed is not always the correlation in football. There are so many different variables that it is hard to make simple blanket statements about one player. If Ahman Green is the reason we aren't winning then someone needs to tell him it's o.k to do witch craft when he's not suiting up.

But if the team is built around a run-game the way the Texans' game is, and if the coach is going to run the ball regardless of whether it works (like he did last year), then to me that becomes the most important part of the offense. It's not like Kubiak is going to keep calling for deep passes that don't work. But he does keep hammering away with the run game. Last year when the Texans won, they were able to run. They have been able to win without a pass game (the horror of the Oakland game), but not vice versa.

And IMO, there is a huge difference between Ahman Green and Ron Dayne. I think not having McKinney in there has hurt, but even in the first two games (when McKinney was in), Dayne was not pushing much through the line. That's why for me it comes back to Green. Schaub is vital, too, and he has certainly had a huge impact. But for me Ahman is the lodestone, at least for this year.

real
10-01-2007, 03:48 PM
Well I think the team and a lot of other football people would disagree.


But there is no harm in disagreements.

So goes life...

painekiller
10-01-2007, 05:05 PM
Why is there still such love for Gattis? He has a lated Day 2 pick by J'ville who was cut and NOT signed to their pratice squad. He then sat at home for 2 weeks before the Bears signed him to fill their practice squad after Brown got hurt. He has since been cut and resigned yet again...and after all that people still think that he would have been a better pick then somebody who might have made the 53 man roster here?

I will never understand how some people continue to fixate on bad players and pine away that they wish they were Texans. The NFL has spoken through the actions of it's teams. Gattis was way over-rated, and a borderline NFL player.



Because I was not looking back at the pick with 20-20 hindsight. I was not fixated on Gattis, just at the time of the draft Gattis made more sense then a another SS. I gave the pick a F at the time, but have changed my opinion to a C. I think that shows my thinking this was an OK pick. I see the GMs thinking here now, just not at the time of the draft.


And no where did I say I wanted Gattis to be a Texans now.

Dallas_Texan
10-01-2007, 05:34 PM
Giving Jones an F is laugable. But, am enjoying reading the takes.

Carry on. :texflag:


I don't think he meant that Jones was an F at WR or PR, I think he meant that taking a WR in the third round over a CB, FS, or LT was a bad idea. Hindsight tells us it wasn't, but at the time, I was a little confused at why we waited until later for a CB.

Allstar
10-01-2007, 07:48 PM
Texan Horror I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying in your original post, I just think the grading system you used was a little unorthodox and is able to be interpreted multiple ways.