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View Full Version : Kubes was not ready


badboy
09-21-2007, 08:42 AM
John McLain's article in Chronicle Sept 21st re-ignited some burning questions I've had. Gary Kubiak was not selected as coach when McNair started the team and Kubes admitted later he had not been ready. I think it would have been interesting to see how he would have done. We had a pretty good crew of veterans that first year with two defensive guys going to pro bowl as I recall. I think with his skills he could have made Carr a better player, maybe not a super star but one that could run the team.

Maybe with Kubes we would not have gone through the offensive management turn over and the O line would have been more settled and secure in their positions. We did have a pretty good RB in DD and with AJ and Miller at tight end maybe the offensive scheme we have now would have had better results.

Mike Shannahan pointed out that players wanted to work for Kubiak. Would that have impacted our free agency moves? It is an interesting thought.

hobie
09-21-2007, 08:45 AM
Would have been interesting for sure if Kubiak came on a few years ago, but if he said he wasn't ready, then I take that for what it is worth. Getting your first HC gig, I am sure he wanted to make damn sure he was as ready as he could be when that time came..and you know what, I am glad he waited.

Kaiser Toro
09-21-2007, 08:48 AM
I am glad he was not ready. McNair needed Cass, Capers and Carr in order to hit rock bottom and have a mental snapshot of what bad football looks and feels like. No one can work with Carr against a NFL defense.

big homey
09-21-2007, 08:51 AM
I think if Kubiak had gotten his hands on Carr from the start he could have made him into an elite QB. But then again, if he wasn't ready, who knows whether or not he would be having the kind of success he is now?

Pantherstang84
09-21-2007, 08:52 AM
I am glad he was not ready. McNair needed Cass, Capers and Carr in order to hit rock bottom and have a mental snapshot of what bad football looks and feels like. No one can work with Carr against a NFL defense.

I would say he should have a pretty good snapshot now.

FirstTexansFan
09-21-2007, 08:56 AM
If Kubiak had been hired as our first coach, he would be out of a head coaching job now. With Casserly as our GM, no coach stood a chance. As much as Capers took alot of heat, and deservedly, he was a better coach than what we saw. Front office blunders were the key to this team hitting the bottom, and brother Cass was the ringleader, with McNair following him like a puppy dog. Everything happens for a reason, and our past was a lesson for our owner. Bringing in Kubiak, followed by Rick Smith will go down in Texans history as the greatest moves this team has or will ever make.

gtexan02
09-21-2007, 08:59 AM
I will be the first to admit I thought Carr had what it takes. Physically, he's quite gifted. Good mobility, accurate arm, ability to make all the throws.

But even with Kubes, Carr simply would never had the passion or leadership to be an "elite" QB. It didn't matter who coached him, he's not damaged goods as just poor quality to begin with.

What starting QB wants a backup job? David Carr

badboy
09-21-2007, 10:31 AM
If Kubiak had been hired as our first coach, he would be out of a head coaching job now. With Casserly as our GM, no coach stood a chance. As much as Capers took alot of heat, and deservedly, he was a better coach than what we saw. Front office blunders were the key to this team hitting the bottom, and brother Cass was the ringleader, with McNair following him like a puppy dog. Everything happens for a reason, and our past was a lesson for our owner. Bringing in Kubiak, followed by Rick Smith will go down in Texans history as the greatest moves this team has or will ever make.Would the Kubes of that team have debated with Casserly for what he needed as it has been reported he and Smith do now? Would he have argued against some of the ridiculous contracts we were stuck with. I think that the GM and coach disagreeing sometimes is healthy. Or would McNair have over ruled Kubes and gone with every Casserly move?

Hervoyel
09-21-2007, 10:43 AM
I think Gary Kubiak goes along with the "I wasn't ready" story because that's the party line and he knows it doesn't do any good to go back over that time. Also, as has already been mentioned Charlie Casserly would have torpedoed any chance the first head coach might have had to succeed so things turned out ok in the long run.

FirstTexansFan
09-21-2007, 11:23 AM
Would the Kubes of that team have debated with Casserly for what he needed as it has been reported he and Smith do now?

I think Coach Kubiak's his own man, but at the same time, I don't believe any of us stick our necks out intentionally to be chopped off. I believe it would have been a death sentence for any coach to oppose Casserly. At that time, he had McNair's ear exclusively imo.

Would he have argued against some of the ridiculous contracts we were stuck with.

I don't believe Coaches for the most part have much say so in contracts.

would McNair have over ruled Kubes and gone with every Casserly move?

I believe the answer to your question is sadly yes.

And you're dead on the money with the statement that everyone doesn't have to be in total agreement for an organization to flourish. All sides of an argument need to be presented.

Texans_Chick
09-21-2007, 11:28 AM
The first head coach of an expansion team in the modern era is meant to get fired. That's just what happens.

The Texans job is Gary Kubiak's dream job, not a stepping stone to something else. I appreciate that because there are not too many qualified coaches in the league you can say that about.

I am glad that he wasn't hired to just to get fired. Bob McNair admires the stability of the Steelers organization, and Kubiak is the sort of person who could be that sort of long term kinda coach.

thunderkyss
09-21-2007, 11:51 AM
I think Gary Kubiak goes along with the "I wasn't ready" story because that's the party line and he knows it doesn't do any good to go back over that time. Also, as has already been mentioned Charlie Casserly would have torpedoed any chance the first head coach might have had to succeed so things turned out ok in the long run.

I also think he's just going along with the Party line. It's either he says, "McNair was right, I wasn't ready." or "I told him he was making a big mistake."

If he didn't think he was ready then, he never would have applied.

I also don't think Casserly could have screwed up Kubiak's team. There was a whole new feel around here as soon as Kubiak got here. I never met the man, but I get the feeling that when he talks, people listen.

& David's biggest problem, was taking the starting job even though he wasn't ready. I'm not blaming him, who wouldn't have done the same thing. But it's not like he dominated the college game right away. & though he played good enough for us to get some wins early, his mistakes & flaws were apparent.

But overall, I think starting David was McCNair trying to prove a point. I love McCNair, and what he did for Houston football, but I think a few things came across as arrogant. Capers wasn't successful in Carolina, but he'll be successful here. Casserly couldn't build a championship team in Washington, but he could here. Choosing a QB with that first overall pick, having him signed before the draft, and a slew of other decisions.

But I think McCNair wanted to prove a point, that he could build a successful franchise from scratch with Clean-Cut David Carr as the face of the franchise.

I've got no doubt in my mind, that we (as a franchise) helped ruin David Carr, but if Gary was the man back in the day, I've got no doubt in my mind that he'd be a star today.

Double Barrel
09-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Hey look, ancient history. John McClain can't think of something fresh to write about, so let's rehash the past. *sigh*

I think if Kubiak had gotten his hands on Carr from the start he could have made him into an elite QB. But then again, if he wasn't ready, who knows whether or not he would be having the kind of success he is now?

I seriously doubt Kubiak would have taken Carr with the first overall pick. First of all, he probably would have chosen Peppers (his first two drafts as Texans HC have had first round D-linemen chosen). And secondly, Carr never was a WCO QB in college, and he doesn't have the mental capacity to handle it as a pro.

The best Carr could be is a Trent Dilfer, which is far from being an elite QB. Just read his college scouting report, and dude has not improved his game in 6 seasons as a professional.

I think Gary Kubiak goes along with the "I wasn't ready" story because that's the party line and he knows it doesn't do any good to go back over that time. Also, as has already been mentioned Charlie Casserly would have torpedoed any chance the first head coach might have had to succeed so things turned out ok in the long run.

Without a doubt he's towing company line. The best situation would have been to hire Kubiak as HC and Capers as a DC....and, of course, never hire Casserly to begin with.

But it took our noob owner the first four seasons to learn his lesson: NFL owners should not be involved with football operations and decisions. Be the money man, face of the FO, and run the marketing machine, but stay away from the football side of things if you have absolutely no experience.

Ckw
09-21-2007, 01:01 PM
John McLain's article in Chronicle Sept 21st re-ignited some burning questions I've had. Gary Kubiak was not selected as coach when McNair started the team and Kubes admitted later he had not been ready. I think it would have been interesting to see how he would have done. We had a pretty good crew of veterans that first year with two defensive guys going to pro bowl as I recall. I think with his skills he could have made Carr a better player, maybe not a super star but one that could run the team.

Maybe with Kubes we would not have gone through the offensive management turn over and the O line would have been more settled and secure in their positions. We did have a pretty good RB in DD and with AJ and Miller at tight end maybe the offensive scheme we have now would have had better results.

Mike Shannahan pointed out that players wanted to work for Kubiak. Would that have impacted our free agency moves? It is an interesting thought.

I wouldn't change anything for the world. This will have been an amazing ride if you were one of the few that followed the team at their worst and then saw the turnaround. Enjoy the ride fellas! :fans:

badboy
09-21-2007, 01:08 PM
The first head coach of an expansion team in the modern era is meant to get fired. That's just what happens.

The Texans job is Gary Kubiak's dream job, not a stepping stone to something else. I appreciate that because there are not too many qualified coaches in the league you can say that about.

I am glad that he wasn't hired to just to get fired. Bob McNair admires the stability of the Steelers organization, and Kubiak is the sort of person who could be that sort of long term kinda coach.I just do not agree with your first sentence. Capers received a five year deal and if we had been 7-9 his last year, I think he would still be here. Capers came with glowing recommendations from others as I recall. I was for an offensive minded coach then because I wanted the excitement of scoring as I did not expect many wins first 3 years. While there are notable exceptions, are many winning coaches fired?

badboy
09-21-2007, 01:16 PM
Would have been interesting for sure if Kubiak came on a few years ago, but if he said he wasn't ready, then I take that for what it is worth. Getting your first HC gig, I am sure he wanted to make damn sure he was as ready as he could be when that time came..and you know what, I am glad he waited.Not to quibble hobie, but Kubes did not wait. He was rejected. I think he had all the tools then as he did last year. He would not have brought the coaches kid five years ago and our OC would have still been coaching Green Bay, but I think Kubes could have assembled a pretty good group of coaches. As he does with the players, he mixes aged experience with youthful coaches such as Bush. I could see Carr (supposedly a franchise QB and face for the team) @ #1, yet I think Kubes would also have pushed for a seasoned QB to operate the first and maybe second year. No one can guarantee a different Carr scenario but subtract 2 years of sacks and who knows.

I also think he would have said no to some of the FA has beens and the resigning of some of ours for ridiculous amounts. At least McNair would have had a dissenting voice.

barrett
09-21-2007, 01:19 PM
The Texans job is Gary Kubiak's dream job, not a stepping stone to something else. I appreciate that because there are not too many qualified coaches in the league you can say that about.

I am glad that he wasn't hired to just to get fired. Bob McNair admires the stability of the Steelers organization, and Kubiak is the sort of person who could be that sort of long term kinda coach.

Not to mention... he's just a pup! He has a long Long LONG career ahead of him. He could potentially be our head coach for 15 years!

Actually one of my biggest fears is loosing Rick Smith to some kind of higher up position. I don't know what position that would be though. Maybe some league spot or something. It seems like being in charge of the football operations of a NFL football team would be fulfilling enough but he is young and seems destined for greatness.

edit: Just imagine if we end up with Gary K. and Rick S. together for another 15 years.... how sweet it could be.

badboy
09-21-2007, 01:23 PM
Hey look, ancient history. John McClain can't think of something fresh to write about, so let's rehash the past. *sigh*



I seriously doubt Kubiak would have taken Carr with the first overall pick. First of all, he probably would have chosen Peppers (his first two drafts as Texans HC have had first round D-linemen chosen). And secondly, Carr never was a WCO QB in college, and he doesn't have the mental capacity to handle it as a pro.

The best Carr could be is a Trent Dilfer, which is far from being an elite QB. Just read his college scouting report, and dude has not improved his game in 6 seasons as a professional.



Without a doubt he's towing company line. The best situation would have been to hire Kubiak as HC and Capers as a DC....and, of course, never hire Casserly to begin with.

But it took our noob owner the first four seasons to learn his lesson: NFL owners should not be involved with football operations and decisions. Be the money man, face of the FO, and run the marketing machine, but stay away from the football side of things if you have absolutely no experience.

The offense brought in by Kubes does not need a Elway type QB. Carr could have done that see Schaub. Maybe with a Peppers and a free agent season QB we could have built well. Ppers would not have cost what Carr did and maybe more $ would have led to different players. We also shoulod remember that thae rules were changed when Houston got the expansion nod due to Carolina and Jacksonville's success and complaints from other teams. The cost of this franchise was quite a bit more than the one offered before. McNair argued and was awarded the SB for Houston as part of the package. We should give credit to Bob M for that too.

badboy
09-21-2007, 01:32 PM
Not to mention... he's just a pup! He has a long Long LONG career ahead of him. He could potentially be our head coach for 15 years!

Actually one of my biggest fears is loosing Rick Smith to some kind of higher up position. I don't know what position that would be though. Maybe some league spot or something. It seems like being in charge of the football operations of a NFL football team would be fulfilling enough but he is young and seems destined for greatness.We have a lot of players I hope to get many years out of and agree that Kubes should be here a long time. SMith is GM and could get a title of President or special, special friend of the owner. Whatever keeps him here. Smith has earned his salary and then some. Fortunately, he can still make big impacts in draft next two years. If JJ & Okoye do what we expect, it will be a very respectful draft. DIles has played some and I still think Bennett may work into CB starter before season over.

eriadoc
09-21-2007, 01:54 PM
I seriously doubt Kubiak would have taken Carr with the first overall pick. First of all, he probably would have chosen Peppers (his first two drafts as Texans HC have had first round D-linemen chosen).

He might have drafted Schaub a couple years later, though :)

Malloy
09-21-2007, 02:32 PM
I am glad he was not ready. McNair needed Cass, Capers and Carr in order to hit rock bottom and have a mental snapshot of what bad football looks and feels like. No one can work with Carr against a NFL defense.

Also, after the 5 barren years, we're easy to please :)

Double Barrel
09-21-2007, 02:38 PM
The offense brought in by Kubes does not need a Elway type QB. Carr could have done that see Schaub.

Dude, seriously, they are completely different QBs. A WCO offense requires a lot more from the QB than a spread offense does. The skills required to effectively run the WCO are not possessed by Carr. You don't need John Elway to run Kuiak's offense, but you do need the ability to read defenses and make smart adjustments, feel the pressure, understand how to work in a pocket, and hit guys on timing patterns.

Carr was picked because he looked good as the "face of the franchise". He was given the starting job before his first training camp even started. Marketing was driving the bus more than anything, and that never results in good football decisions.

badboy
09-21-2007, 03:31 PM
Dude, seriously, they are completely different QBs. A WCO offense requires a lot more from the QB than a spread offense does. The skills required to effectively run the WCO are not possessed by Carr. You don't need John Elway to run Kuiak's offense, but you do need the ability to read defenses and make smart adjustments, feel the pressure, understand how to work in a pocket, and hit guys on timing patterns.

Carr was picked because he looked good as the "face of the franchise". He was given the starting job before his first training camp even started. Marketing was driving the bus more than anything, and that never results in good football decisions.West Coast Offense is based on the passing game of several quick accurate throws. I thought our offense was based on the running game? The Carr of 2004 could have run the Kube offense and if he had backed up a FA vet the first 2 years of career, may have been a different player.

kcdoubleeagle
09-21-2007, 03:41 PM
I think if Kubiak had gotten his hands on Carr from the start he could have made him into an elite QB. But then again, if he wasn't ready, who knows whether or not he would be having the kind of success he is now?


No one could of made David Carr an elite qb. JMO.

eriadoc
09-21-2007, 03:48 PM
No one could of made David Carr an elite qb. JMO.

When Carr came out, he had a lot of positive things going for him. Every QB has weaknesses, and it's the coaches' jobs to put that QB in the position to make plays. Carr was making progress and still showing flashes most of the way through the 2004 season. The last road win this team ever had was in Chicago in single-digit temps, with Carr under center, 24-5. Once the wheels fell off, though, he was totally gone between the ears.

I think Kubiak could have turned Carr into a Pro Bowl QB (hell, he sent Brian Griese to the Pro Bowl), if he would have had him from the beginning. One thing is for sure, I think - he wouldn't have spent 5 years figuring out if Carr was the right guy or not. And I doubt Kubiak would have promoted Joe Pendry to OC at any point in his tenure.

badboy
09-21-2007, 04:21 PM
It is like a divorce. The years are gone and you try to not make same mistakes. A pretty face does not always do for you what you think it will no matter how you want it to. The ex is gone. You might see that other person but you want them to miss you not the other way around. Talking bad about them does little for you especially if you really like the new replacement.

Vinny
09-21-2007, 05:47 PM
The offense brought in by Kubes does not need a Elway type QB. Carr could have done that see Schaub. funny stuff, comparing Schaub to Carr. Elway won at least 12 playoff games, went to 5 Super Bowls and won two of them. Since Elway retired the Broncos have one playoff win....total. Sure, the Broncos don't need Elway, but it sure is nice to win playoff games and play in Super Bowls.

Double Barrel
09-21-2007, 05:47 PM
West Coast Offense is based on the passing game of several quick accurate throws. I thought our offense was based on the running game? The Carr of 2004 could have run the Kube offense and if he had backed up a FA vet the first 2 years of career, may have been a different player.

The running game is still important to the WCO. It's not a 'pure passing' offense like the run & shoot. There are several variations of the WCO, as well.

It is debatable if Carr could run a WCO, simply because timing patterns are not one of his strengths. In addition, he's always struggled with reading defenses, so making adjustments at the line is not an option. Taking advantage of mismatches is a big aspect of the WCO, so having a QB that has very limited (if any) audible/hot route possibilities does not lend itself to being successful. He never could really sell the play fake, too, and that was a problem from his first year on.