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gjmac2
09-19-2007, 01:37 PM
Did not see a thread for this, so I thought I would post for debate:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/18/mcnabb.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- Philadelphia Eagles star Donovan McNabb says black quarterbacks face greater scrutiny than their white counterparts.

In an interview on HBO's "Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel" to be broadcast Tuesday, McNabb said black quarterbacks "have to do a little bit extra" because there are relatively few of them, adding "people didn't want us to play this position."



McNabb said if he passes for 300 yards and his team wins by a touchdown, critics will say, "Oh, he could have made this throw here. We would have scored more points if he would have done this."

Asked if white quarterbacks such as Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer are held to the same standards, McNabb replied: "Let me start by saying, I love those guys. But they don't get criticized as much as we do. They don't."

McNabb is one of six black starting quarterbacks in the NFL. The others are David Garrard of Jacksonville, Vince Young of Tennessee, Steve McNair of Baltimore, Jason Campbell of Washington and Tarvaris Jackson of Minnesota.

McNabb, a five-time Pro Bowl selection, is 91/2 months removed from major knee surgery and has missed 13 games the past two seasons because of injuries. On Monday night, he misfired on several throws and couldn't create big plays during the Eagles' 20-12 loss to Washington.

In 2003, conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh, briefly part of ESPN's pregame show, said he didn't think McNabb was as good as perceived.

"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL," Limbaugh said. "The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well."

He resigned from the show the next week.

Vinny
09-19-2007, 01:41 PM
no copy and pastes without links...please

McNabb is a crybaby and loses a ton of credibility out of this. I had a higher opinion of him before this stupid commentary.

bah007
09-19-2007, 01:46 PM
Limbaugh was wrong.

McNabb is also.

Maybe if he played like an NFL QB on Monday night then he wouldnt have had anybody criticize him.

The race card is being exceedingly overplayed these days. There is less racism now in the US than there ever has been before, but there seems to more people complaining about it.

Whenever a white man gets outplayed by a black man it is because black people are "naturally athletic" or some nonsense. It cant possibly be that the guy was just better than you.

And if a black man gets criticized it is because "the man" is holding him down. It cant possibly be that his play deserves to be criticized.

I'm white by the way, take my comments however you want from that perspective.

Corrosion
09-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Im sick of the race card .Its overplayed and out dated , its 2007 not 1967 .


By the way who took more criticism , Mcnabb or David Carr ..... McNabb hasnt been cut yet .



:twocents:

real
09-19-2007, 01:57 PM
Well, I'm black and I think McNabb was correct, but not in this particular instance. I think he was just whining after a poor showing.

I do believe Blacks in general are portrayed more negatively in the media.

And I disagree that there is "less" racism in the United States than in "years past". I think there is less open racism, and I think that certain laws have helped with that. I'm not even saying that there is more or equal racism as years past--I'm just saying that desegregation, Hate crime laws, Affirmitive action and things like that have, in a way, masked racism a bit.

Racism will always exist as long as there are different races. So goes life.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 02:00 PM
it's ironic because after the Limbaugh comments, McNabb held a presser stating that he doesn't like the term "black quarterback" and wishes he was just looked at as a "quarterback." but he's used that very term several times since then to gain sympathy. sounds like an ***** just trying to place blame anywhere he can but himself.

Vinny
09-19-2007, 02:02 PM
And I disagree that there is "less" racism in the United States than in "years past". how old are you then? It wasn't that long ago when we had white and black drinking fountains in public places....just in my short lifetime I've seen huge change.

Texans_Chick
09-19-2007, 02:32 PM
My take:

I don't think what he said was particularly outrageous. The only controversial thing is that he dared to be a public figure that talked about race out loud:

I wrote about this yesterday at FanHouse, mostly because the stuff I was hearing on sports talk radio about the comments was so over the top.

FanHouse: "McNabb Race Comment Controversy: Says More About Us Than Him"
(http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/09/18/mcnabb-race-comment-controversy-says-more-about-us-than-him/)

Vinny
09-19-2007, 03:06 PM
I don't think it is outrageous either. I just view it as trying to paint himself as a victim and using race as leverage....not something high character, leadership kinda guys do for the most part.

texasguy346
09-19-2007, 03:10 PM
I think this is more about McNabb not being able to handle the pressure of being a starting QB for the Eagles all the while looking over his shoulder & seeing Kolb inching closer & closer to his starting job. Competition is a driving force in the NFL. It often brings the best out of a player, but it looks as though it's bringing the worst out in McNabb.

My prediction is that Kolb will get some playing time in the last 5 or 6 games of the season, and could be the starter if the Eagles are out of contention by midseason.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 03:18 PM
First, McNabb plays in Philly. Win the big one, or take the heat. See Mike Schmidt.

Second, those folks booed Santa.

Last, no one and I mean no one (Black, White, Hispanic or Purple) has taken anymore criticism than Rex Grossman....

StarStruck
09-19-2007, 03:19 PM
I just recalled a comment a relative made a couple of years ago in that most of what TO says is right, he just doesn't need to say it.

badboy
09-19-2007, 03:30 PM
I agree. White QBs never get criticized and I should know. signed David Carr

Ckw
09-19-2007, 03:31 PM
I do believe Blacks in general are portrayed more negatively in the media.


Are you talking about sports or real life or both. I'll handle just the sports issue since I'm not black and can't speak on what a black man experiences. But I do watch tv and am an avid sports fan and have seen the terrible portrayal of black people.

I mean Vince Young. I mean surely he isn't one of the most celebrated quarterbacks of our time. No, of course not. All anyone sees is that Vince Young is black. Yeah right...

Michael Vick: The media called him superman before he decided to become super dog killer.

Ken Griffey, Jr: In the 90s, he was my favorite baseball player. Yet he was also one of the most celebrated athletes in all of sports at the time.

Barry Bonds: The only reason everyone hates him is because he is an asshole and he cheated.

Pacman Jones: He had his guys shoot a man. How else can the media portray him?

Tank Johnson: Had an arsenal in his home. Nuff said.

Donovan McNabb: Cheered when he does well. Jeered when he does poorly. But surely he doesn't play in the same stadium where Santa Clause was booed...

Odell Thurman: Druggy. Nuff said.

Ray Lewis: Committed criminal actions, yet he is still celebrated as one of the most MLB in the NFL. The media loves him!

Ladainian Tomlinson: Extremely celebrated, everybody loves him, and yeah he's black. But shouldn't that mean everyone is upset he is the NFL rushing champion with all this racism in the world?

Maybe I missed your point but blacks are not treated more harshly. All one has to do is look at the flack David Carr receives. Quarterbacks, period, receive too much criticism and too much credit. That's the nature of the position. And maybe if some of the black quarterbacks not in Philly performed a little bit better they wouldn't be hated so much. Mike Vick couldn't pass yet Atlanta still loved him. McNabb has been on and off his whole career. Inconsistency will breed discontent. Leftwich has been a disappointment. Garrard has been average. Culpepper has been horrible and he deserved to lose his job. Jamarcus Russell got picked number one. Vince Young, well you know the rest.

As far as not having enough black quarterbacks: Are we supposed to go search exclusively for black quarterbacks? Or do we simply let them do what colleges do and sort them out? College coaches will decide the best position for the player, black or white, and play them there. If a pro team likes them and they perform well, then they get drafted. Did I miss anything?

Tedc
09-19-2007, 03:32 PM
A certain Chicago QB is feeling the heat also. He is also being booed by the fans. He is not blaming the fact that he is white for the fans bashing him.

It is of general concensus that he has stunk it up and he is in Chicago.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 03:32 PM
I agree. White QBs never get criticized and I should know. signed David Carr

How dare you forget about me,

Rex Grossman
Super Bowl runner-up,

Trent Dilfer
Super Bowl winner,

Joey Harrington,

Chris Simms,

badboy
09-19-2007, 03:33 PM
how old are you then? It wasn't that long ago when we had white and black drinking fountains in public places....just in my short lifetime I've seen huge change.When I was 12, I got yelled at for drinking from a "colored" fountain. I yelled back "I'm thirsty, dumb a--." Of course I could run pretty fast for a white boy in those days.

real
09-19-2007, 03:35 PM
how old are you then? It wasn't that long ago when we had white and black drinking fountains in public places....just in my short lifetime I've seen huge change.


Yeah, that's pretty much my point...

There is no way to measure racism...

Just because there have been laws made to couteract some of it, doesn't mean there is indeed "less racism"....You nor I can prove how someone views another race within their heart...

You yourself said "it wasn't that long ago"...Well if it wasn't that long ago, why do you assume that "racism" has declined past what the laws now tell us we can and can't do ? Do you think that within half a century all the racist that were alive have fallen off the face of the earth ? Do you think some of these peoples children haven't learned from their parents ? Do you think that a person cannot be a natural racist (as in, no one taught them to be racist, it was just a concious decision they made) ?

Racism isn't something that has to be directly taught otherwise it wouldn't exist...

There are some people in this world who don't like black people and think negatively about the race, but they aren't going out of their way to do them injustice...those people are still racist...If they had the chance they'd probably rid the country of blacks...

Just because you don't see lynchings galore doesn't mean racism has declined...It just means that people do a better job hiding it...But that is just my feelings on the subject.

real
09-19-2007, 03:41 PM
Maybe I missed your point but blacks are not treated more harshly. All one has to do is look at the flack David Carr receives.

Not sure what that little rant was about, but I totally disagree...Well I can't really even say totally because I stopped reading after it became clear that you weren't trying to understand what I was saying and merely felt like sputing off. But anyways, I'll just leave it at "I disagree with you, and have a nice day sir"....

real
09-19-2007, 03:41 PM
Maybe I missed your point but blacks are not treated more harshly. All one has to do is look at the flack David Carr receives.

Not sure what that little rant was about, but I totally disagree...Well I can't really even say totally because I stopped reading after it became clear that you weren't trying to understand what I was saying and merely felt like spouting off. But anyways, I'll just leave it at "I disagree with you, and have a nice day sir"....

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 03:46 PM
Just because you don't see lynchings galore doesn't mean racism has declined...It just means that people do a better job hiding it....

By far, the single most, narrow minded, race card perpetuating, ignorant, quote ever on this board..... And that includes quotes from trolls, the DC and VY man-lovers and Vinny (j/k Vinny)..

Are you kidding me with that garbage?!!?

thunderkyss
09-19-2007, 03:48 PM
Im sick of the race card .Its overplayed and out dated , its 2007 not 1967 .


By the way who took more criticism , Mcnabb or David Carr ..... McNabb hasnt been cut yet .



:twocents:

Carr has never been criticized outside of Houston, until recently. McNabb has been.

Carr's success doesn't even come close to the success McNabb has had, but he's had a "free ride".

I don't agree with McNabb's statements at all. I don't even see where he could get that from.

But David Carr is a bad example.

real
09-19-2007, 03:50 PM
By far, the single most, narrow minded, race card perpetuating, ignorant, quote ever on this board..... And that includes quotes from trolls, the DC and VY man-lovers and Vinny (j/k Vinny)..

Are you kidding me with that garbage?!!?


Honestly, Im not surprised at your viewpoint. Not surprised at all.

thunderkyss
09-19-2007, 03:50 PM
i'm a white dude.

i've recieved far more racist treatment from black dudes than i've doled out. so for a guy who's life has been showered in money and fame to come out and say something so ignorant is just furthering racism. EVERYONE has to let it go before it will go away. i'm no fool, i know it will never be a perfect world, but to accuse society as a whole is asanine.


It's crazy to think that racism doesn't exist anymore.


And to ignore it is stupid.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 03:51 PM
Honestly, Im not surprised at your viewpoint. Not surprised at all.

Thats your ignorance.... Not mine.

Try waking up and smell what your shoveling.

real
09-19-2007, 03:53 PM
Thats your ignorance.... Not mine.

Try waking up and smell what your shoveling.


Again, I'm not surprised at all at your comments nor the comments of others seeing as most folks on a message board are going to be middle aged white men. But I digress.

real
09-19-2007, 03:55 PM
i' i'm no fool, i know it will never be a perfect world, but to accuse society as a whole is asanine.

What exactly are you talking about ?

Accuse society as a whole ???

LOL....ok...

No one has said "KJ3 you are a racist"-- so why are you being so defensive ?

eriadoc
09-19-2007, 04:01 PM
i'm a white dude.

i've recieved far more racist treatment from black dudes than i've doled out. so for a guy who's life has been showered in money and fame to come out and say something so ignorant is just furthering racism. EVERYONE has to let it go before it will go away. i'm no fool, i know it will never be a perfect world, but to accuse society as a whole is asanine.

QFT.

And to add to that, I grew up in the Heights, before it was renovated, then moved to the Airline-West Rd. area, for those that are familiar with the spot. I was a minority then, and in Houston, I'm a minority now. Add to that, I am married to a Chinese woman, and I have been the target of overt, particularly nasty, racist epithets on that side of things. So has my wife.

We choose to ignore it, because you choose to go through life and either be offended by things or not. We choose not to. We prefer to thank the ignorant morons for identifying themselves.

My personal view on racism in general is, if enough people wanted it to go away, it would. But you have a segment of society that is ignorant, hateful, and prejudiced. Then you have another segment of society that feels they are entitled to some restitution for years of racism, so they are hateful and prejudiced on their part. Then you have a segment of society caught in the middle, who recognizes the racism on both sides, but don't feel there's much they can do to stop it other than refrain from contributing to it. It's an unfortunate world we live in. Get over it, Donnie.

And oh by the way, go back and watch the Eagles' Super Bowl again. He wasn't that accurate back then, either. I've said it for years - accuracy just isn't one of McNabb's strong suits. And I'm not talking about completion percentages.

real
09-19-2007, 04:03 PM
Well aren't you just the perfect little man...

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:04 PM
It just means that people do a better job hiding it....

I dunno, but that sounds pretty much like a blanket statement of stating "KJ, TB or 'any middle aged white man', you are a racist".... (We just hide it better now - huh?)

Whatever dude, keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Your comments angered me at first, but I guess one can't really get upset with ignorant blanket statements...

That is all.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 04:08 PM
as far as i'm concerned, i don't care if people are racist if they are in fact "hiding it." as long as they're not acting on it, it doesn't affect me or anyone else.

real
09-19-2007, 04:08 PM
I dunno, but that sounds pretty much like a blanket statement of stating "KJ, TB or 'any middle aged white man', you are a racist".... (We just hide it better now - huh?)

Whatever dude, keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Your comments angered me at first, but I guess one can't really get upset with ignorant blanket statements...

That is all.

Stop being so defensive. It's nauseating.


I didn't directly call out anybody. All I did waas make a statement that I feel to be true, and YOU lumped YOURSELF into that category...

Why you would say "WE hide it better" is beyond me...

Maybe next time I talk about race relations in general I should say with the exception of Texan Bill because we all know he isn't a racist...

Hervoyel
09-19-2007, 04:08 PM
I have it on good authority that I'm incapable of holding a civilized conversation on issues like this because I'm too set in my opinion.

Apparently that renders me incapable of debating any subject that involves race in America in the year 2007.

I think I'll just keep my thoughts to myself on this one (in a loud kind of way).

real
09-19-2007, 04:09 PM
as far as i'm concerned, i don't care if people are racist if they are in fact "hiding it." as long as they're not acting on it, it doesn't affect me or anyone else.

That's like saying cheating is o.k until you get caught...

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:09 PM
Back to Topic.... McNabb has never been embraced by the city of Philadelphia the way Randall was... I think it had to do with Randall doing more with less, and their 'perception' of McNabb under-achieving with more. (note operative word: perception)

I know an Eagles fan that has basically shared these feeling about McNabb since before the Super Bowl. After McNabb and the Eagles went to the Super Bowl, I asked if his feelings had changed... Answer: no.

Lucky
09-19-2007, 04:10 PM
I don't agree with McNabb's statements at all. I don't even see where he could get that from.
Was McNabb just talking about himself? Remember, this interview took place prior to the season. What black QB was being criticized before the season had even begun? Hmm....

I do believe there was a time that a black QB had to be a lot better than a white QB to get a job. I don't believe McNabb has played QB during that time. Guys like Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, and Doug Williams paved his way. Maybe McNabb thinks that 6 black starting QBs out of 30 teams is a small number. But, it's huge considering the number from 25 years ago. Not to mention, the 20% representation of black QBs is statistically larger than the general population. If there is a group that should complain, it's black kickers and punters.

I do think McNabb has faced undue criticism. But, not necessarily from fans or the media. McNabb was defended strongly by the media after Limbaugh's wacky remarks. He was defended again, after TO's slam. Both the fans and the media roasted the Eagles for selecting Kevin Kolb in the 2nd round of the draft. And if I remember correctly, McNabb piled on. By drafting Kolb, Andy Reid has called out his QB for his inability to stay healthy. McNabb should stop crying racism and face the truth that the only criticism that counts comes from his head coach.

eriadoc
09-19-2007, 04:11 PM
Well aren't you just the perfect little man...

If that's your best response, perhaps you should just excuse yourself from the conversation now.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:12 PM
Stop being so defensive. It's nauseating.


I didn't directly call out anybody. All I did waas make a statement that I feel to be true, and YOU lumped YOURSELF into that category...

Why you would say "WE hide it better" is beyond me...

Maybe next time I talk about race relations in general I should say with the exception of Texan Bill because we all know he isn't a racist...

ummmm. because I am a middle aged white guy, that you specifically called out as being the majority of this board.. Also because you said: "doesn't mean racism has declined...It just means that people do a better job hiding it..." I am 'people'. By the way your reverse psychology doesn't work when talking about being defensive of being a racists... Wouldn't a racist actually be proud of it, AND try to spew the same ignorant propoganda that you spread... So really what you have told me, is that you're the racist.. Now fess up!!! BTW, NO ONE said that racism doesn't exist... It does, here AND all over the world.


Listen, I know you're a new guy - so with that said start a thread specifically about racists on this board... This thread is with respect to McNabb's comments - Not yours...

SO back on topic

real
09-19-2007, 04:13 PM
By drafting Kolb, Andy Reid has called out his QB for his inability to stay healthy. McNabb should stop crying racism and face the truth that the only criticism that counts comes from his head coach.

Pretty much.

I don't think what McNabb was saying was off base, I just don't think it was applicable to him in that situation.

But nice post.

real
09-19-2007, 04:15 PM
If that's your best response, perhaps you should just excuse yourself from the conversation now.

No. I think I'll keep commenting. But thanks for the suggestion.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:17 PM
LOL, somehow I knew this thread was going to be about race before I even clicked on it....but I do agree that the media and people in general are more critical of black quarterbacks....I've even seen it on this board *dream says no names*


To be honest McNabb in his prime has ALWAYS been one of the top 3 QBs in the league despite having lack luster talent around him, yet he still doesn't get the credit he deserves...and Charles Barkley put it best the other night on MNF..."before Manning won the superbowl last year, McNabb had accomplished more as a QB"....and that is true and amazing considering the talent he has had around him.

i've recieved far more racist treatment from black dudes than i've doled out. so for a guy who's life has been showered in money and fame to come out and say something so ignorant is just furthering racism. EVERYONE has to let it go before it will go away. i'm no fool, i know it will never be a perfect world, but to accuse society as a whole is asanine.

:gun:

real
09-19-2007, 04:17 PM
ummmm. because I am a middle aged white guy, that you specifically called out as being the majority of this board..

Listen, I know you're a new guy - so with that said start a thread specifically about racists on this board... This thread is with respect to McNabb's comments - Not yours...

SO back on topic


I guess that's your way of saying "let me have the last word"....

There'd be no need for a retort if there wasn't anything to respond to, so you get back on topic and I will have no choice but to follow.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:19 PM
I do think McNabb has faced undue criticism. But, not necessarily from fans or the media. McNabb was defended strongly by the media after Limbaugh's wacky remarks. He was defended again, after TO's slam. Both the fans and the media roasted the Eagles for selecting Kevin Kolb in the 2nd round of the draft. And if I remember correctly, McNabb piled on. By drafting Kolb, Andy Reid has called out his QB for his inability to stay healthy. McNabb should stop crying racism and face the truth that the only criticism that counts comes from his head coach.

QFT!!!

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:24 PM
I think this is more about McNabb not being able to handle the pressure of being a starting QB for the Eagles all the while looking over his shoulder & seeing Kolb inching closer & closer to his starting job. Competition is a driving force in the NFL. It often brings the best out of a player, but it looks as though it's bringing the worst out in McNabb.


What I got from this was that part of the "pressure" that McNabb has to deal with is from racist/biased critics. I agree that he is under pressure, because of his poor performing, but there are those who will scrutinize him more, because he is black.

Specnatz
09-19-2007, 04:25 PM
I guess that's your way of saying "let me have the last word"....

There'd be no need for a retort if there wasn't anything to respond to, so you get back on topic and I will have no choice but to follow.

I have no idea why you think being a total A-Hole is cute or funny but you really need to get over what ever issue you have, because when you do finally grow up you will realize just how far you can get with your attitude.

You made a statement and folks commented on it and then you have those one line asscinine comments after theirs is pretty pathetic.

Vinny
09-19-2007, 04:26 PM
I guess that's your way of saying "let me have the last word"....

There'd be no need for a retort if there wasn't anything to respond to, so you get back on topic and I will have no choice but to follow.

real or unreal? You want me to merge this account with your other screen name or are you just gonna stick with this one now?

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 04:26 PM
I've even seen it on this board *dream says no names*
people have gone out of their way to criticize that specific quarterback because everyone else in the media and everywhere else has gone out of their way to put him on a plateau above everyone else. it's ironic to use him for the "black QB's get bashed more" argument.

we've also seen the same thing with David Carr here. there were quite a few folks who defended him no matter what, and then the reactionaries who really drove home their opinion on how he sucks, etc. it's true with any player that gets hyped/praised too much

HoustonFrog
09-19-2007, 04:27 PM
no copy and pastes without links...please

McNabb is a crybaby and loses a ton of credibility out of this. I had a higher opinion of him before this stupid commentary.

I agree. QBs in general get ripped and he is in a city who loves to rip. As I heard from Costas on Rome today, if the NFL was set up like he says then why would VY go before Leinart and why would Quinn drop as Russell goes #1?

Specnatz
09-19-2007, 04:29 PM
What I got from this was that part of the "pressure" that McNabb has to deal with is from racist/biased critics. I agree that he is under pressure, because of his poor performing, but there are those who will scrutinize him more, because he is black.

Besides Rush and his idiotic comments, who has done this. Please I really would like some names to go with this.

McNabb was hailed in philly until last season and now this one. Vick in Atl was praised even though his performances were not all that great, sportcenter material but not very good.

HOU-TEX
09-19-2007, 04:29 PM
I like McNabb, always have. When he does get back on track the eagles will be right back up at the top. If he stays healthy throughout the season, the eagles will be in the playoffs.

BTW, I'm red

Lucky
09-19-2007, 04:31 PM
...but there are those who will scrutinize him more, because he is black.
Do you have any examples? I mean, other than Rush Limbaugh?

The only overt criticism I've seen of McNabb was from Limbaugh (a drugged out fruitcake), TO (a self-loving black WR), and the president of Philly's NAACP chapter (for McNabb not playing "black"). Where o' where is the evidence?

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:33 PM
What I got from this was that part of the "pressure" that McNabb has to deal with is from racist/biased critics. I agree that he is under pressure, because of his poor performing, but there are those who will scrutinize him more, because he is black.

Problem is by acknowledging those ignorant few, you give them power... Ignore them and they have no platform.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The scrutiny is as much about his injuries as Lucky has stated.

Bottom line is McNabb will be fine. Afterall, he is recovering from his surgery. He probably won't be "right" until mid-way through the season.. And lets face it, in the Nancy Football Conference, they can still be alive come play-off time... If thats the case, critics will shut-up.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 04:33 PM
I agree. QBs in general get ripped and he is in a city who loves to rip. As I heard from Costas on Rome today, if the NFL was set up like he says then why would VY go before Leinart and why would Quinn drop as Russell goes #1?
most of the pressure these guys feel are from being top draft picks. all you have to do is look at Tavaris Jackson. a second rounder out of a school no one's ever seen play, so the media doesn't care about him outside of Minnesota. is it because he's black? no, it's because....he's a second rounder out of a school no one has ever seen play. the media only reacts to stories (or create their own stories, but that's another thread). McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Russell, Andre Ware, Leftwich, Akili Smith.....they were all first rounders, so they naturally have a ton of hype and every thing they do on the field is going to be criticized. just like with Rex Grossman, Kyle Boller, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, JP Losman, and probably more than any other QB in the game, Eli Manning (for many reasons, of course). it's the nature of the position, and the nature of your draft pick.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:36 PM
people have gone out of their way to criticize that specific quarterback because everyone else in the media and everywhere else has gone out of their way to put him on a plateau above everyone else. it's ironic to use him for the "black QB's get bashed more" argument.

we've also seen the same thing with David Carr here. there were quite a few folks who defended him no matter what, and then the reactionaries who really drove home their opinion on how he sucks, etc. it's true with any player that gets hyped/praised too much

But think about it is this way. David Carr was given a half a decade here to prove something...woud the leash be that long for a black QB who played that poorly? And as far as that certain QB is concerned those same people who were critical of him can hardly be seen saying anything critical of Cutler or Lienhart. It was even like that coming out of the draft. "Vince is another Michael Vick"...the reason people said that is because all they saw was another "black" qb that can run. I'm sorry, but we all know that there are still people out there who can't get past a mans skin color eventhough there have been black quarterbacks who have shown that they can be just as good if not better than their white counterparts. The wonderlic test jokes (even when other qbs in the past performed poorly on the same test), comparing him to "radio" because he's the big black dude who plays sports, etc. all has some sort of racial undertone with it.

We see racism with coach hirings and firings in football so why is it so hard to accept that the same can't be said for the QB position?

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:40 PM
Problem is by acknowledging those ignorant few, you give them power... Ignore them and they have no platform.


No by acknowledging those "few" you bring the subject of race to the table that we all seem to try to avoid even though it's with us every day....if you ignore them then you have no platform....or guts.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:41 PM
Dream,

A black QB that has sucked for 5 years - well 4 years -- before being released (ala or similar to Carr).... :hmmm:

Byron Sandwich!?!???? Doug Williams?????? (first 5 in Tampa)

Just throwing it out there.

thunderkyss
09-19-2007, 04:43 PM
I do think McNabb has faced undue criticism.


I don't think think he gets that QB because he's black.

I've got an Eagle fan here in my building. I tease him all the time, because McNabb is soft(my opinion), and has a propensity to always throw an interception to give the game away.

I don't care if he's white, black, hispanic or asian, If a man breaks his leg, and comes back to play the best game of his career 4 weeks later, and points out his QB because he wasn't ready for that game(throwing chunks and all that), then I'm siding with that man. Terrell Owens was right, and DMcNabb was not ready for that game.

He deserved that criticism.

Monday night, he was throwing balls behind his recievers, too high, and in the dirt.

But he played that game, even though he wasn't ready(IMHO) because he felt threatened to lose his job.

Same reason why Garcia was run out of town.

He brings it all on himself.

If I were him, I could care less if Philly wants to go with Garcia or Cobb. I will find another team, hopefully in the NFC East, and beat the Eagles twice a year.

But McNabb has decided he wants to whine & cry.

real
09-19-2007, 04:43 PM
Just a random hypothetical question:

If David Carr was black and in the same exact situation, would it have been widely thought that it was his "O-line's" fault ?

I'm not saying it would have or it wouldn't have been. I honestly don't know. I suspect it would have been a little different, but I can't really say for sure.

Lucky
09-19-2007, 04:44 PM
I'm sorry, but we all know that there are still people out there who can't get past a mans skin color eventhough there have been black quarterbacks who have shown that they can be just as good if not better than there white counterparts.
Yes, those people are out there. But, how many of those people run NFL franchises? Or are in the major media? Few and far between.

Like I asked you before, can you point to specific criticism of McNabb that you feel is racist in nature?

eriadoc
09-19-2007, 04:45 PM
But think about it is this way. David Carr was given a half a decade here to prove something...woud the leash be that long for a black QB who played that poorly?

I don't know. Let's ask Michael Vick. People that defend Vick always point to wins and losses, never considering how his poor passing actually contributed to those wins. Sure, he made a difference with his legs, but he offset that by consistently underthrowing/overthrowing receivers, and he had less pocket presence than Carr.

How long did Doug Williams get in TB? How long did Randall Cunningham get in Philly, despite not winning as much as McNabb? I can't think of too many black QBs that were drafted highly (that plays more of a part here than anything, IMO), given the starting job, then yanked after performing even decently. You have to be Akili Smith reincarnated to get booted quickly after being drafted highly, because in the NFL, the only color that matters is green.

It was even like that coming out of the draft. "Vince is another Michael Vick"...the reason people said that is because all they saw was another "black" qb that can run.

Well, I won't pretend to speak for everyone, but to me, that was just another way of saying, "here's another running QB that has questionable passing skills". But yeah, people on one side of the fence might have intended some racial undertone, and people on the other side of the fence might have automatically assumed some racial prejudice.

real
09-19-2007, 04:49 PM
most of the pressure these guys feel are from being top draft picks. all you have to do is look at Tavaris Jackson. a second rounder out of a school no one's ever seen play, so the media doesn't care about him outside of Minnesota.


It's about perception.

thunderkyss
09-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Has Anyone ever come out and said that McNabb is not amoung the top tier QBs in this league??

I can't remember a time when he was not included as one of the top 5 outside of his first two years.

What criticism is he getting exactly that the Others(Manning, Palmer, Brady) aren't getting??

Is there anyone ever mentioned with those three other than McNabb??

Maybe Farve, but if so, would that be too far fetched??

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Just a random hypothetical question:

If David Carr was black and in the same exact situation, would it have been widely thought that it was his "O-line's" fault ?

I'm not saying it would have or it wouldn't have been. I honestly don't know. I suspect it would have been a little different, but I can't really say for sure.

Again, we know that you are noob, but it is "widely known that it wasn't the O-line's fault". See Schaubs sack numbers in comparison.. Carr has been pasted up and down and sideways - not the O-line. Thus, he's gone!

So the criticism (severe critcism and probably as bad as McNabb has received) on this board of Carr would have stood the same if he was purple...

Lucky
09-19-2007, 04:49 PM
I don't care if he's white, black, hispanic or asian, If a man breaks his leg, and comes back to play the best game of his career 4 weeks later, and points out his QB because he wasn't ready for that game(throwing chunks and all that), then I'm siding with that man.
What about the man who quarterbacked that team to 2 playoff victorys, so that the man who broke his leg gets a chance to play in that Super Bowl? No props for him?

That's what I call "undue criticism."

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:51 PM
1) Has Anyone ever come out and said that McNabb is not amoung the top tier QBs in this league??

2) I can't remember a time when he was not included as one of the top 5 outside of his first two years.

3) What criticism is he getting exactly that the Others(Manning, Palmer, Brady) aren't getting??

4) Is there anyone ever mentioned with those three other than McNabb??

5) Maybe Farve, but if so, would that be too far fetched??

1) No!
2) Nor can I
3) that he can't stay healthy and on the field - which HURTS HIS TEAM!
4) Nope
5) again, no.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:52 PM
Yes, those people are out there. But, how many of those people run NFL franchises? Or are in the major media? Few and far between.



LOL, how do we know that it's "few and far between". Are we all in other peoples minds?...Whether you feel like they're a minority or a majority the fact is that they are out there.

[Like I asked you before, can you point to specific criticism of McNabb that you feel is racist in nature?
/QUOTE]

Limbaugh....the thing I actually respect about Limbaugh is that he actually had the balls to come out and say it and not hide his prejudice....people were acting like it was a big surprise when he came out and said it, but anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that it happens all the time.

[QUOTE]Byron Sandwich!?!???? Doug Williams?????? (first 5 in Tampa)


neither of those men were as bad as Carr and we both know that.

the only color that matters is green.

not true.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 04:52 PM
It's about perception.
...whatever that means.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:54 PM
What about the man who quarterbacked that team to 2 playoff victorys, so that the man who broke his leg gets a chance to play in that Super Bowl? No props for him?

That's what I call "undue criticism."


exactly.....the "soft" label is total bull****....how can you call a guy soft who constantly carries his sucky teammates....the guy plays hurt and doesn't complain despite the little help he has yet he still gets the "soft" label....that is bull****.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:54 PM
2005 - 9 games on the field
2006 - 10 games.

He is one of the great ones, but his durability 'should' be called into question given the trend over the last couple of years.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 04:57 PM
Has Anyone ever come out and said that McNabb is not amoung the top tier QBs in this league??

I can't remember a time when he was not included as one of the top 5 outside of his first two years.

What criticism is he getting exactly that the Others(Manning, Palmer, Brady) aren't getting??

Is there anyone ever mentioned with those three other than McNabb??

Maybe Farve, but if so, would that be too far fetched??


1. I will say that I don't think he gets the credit he deserves
2. agree
3. the fact that some people can't get by the fact that he is a black quarterback
4. mentioned how?
5. ???

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 04:57 PM
exactly.....the "soft" label is total bull****....how can you call a guy soft who constantly carries his sucky teammates....the guy plays hurt and doesn't complain despite the little help he has yet he still gets the "soft" label....that is bull****.
i'm not sure how you can say he has "sucky" teammates. he's always had a great defense, his o-line has always been good, and he's had some good talent in the backfield, too. the only "sucky" part has been the receivers, but that's it, really. you're trying to prove your point too much here by denying the facts.

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 04:57 PM
neither of those men were as bad as Carr and we both know that.


This we can definitely debate this (Williams v. Carrs #'s), BUT let's agree to save it for a completely different thread as the turn it would take, would be completely irrelevant to this discussion...

real
09-19-2007, 05:00 PM
Again, we know that you are noob, but it is "widely known that it wasn't the O-line's fault". See Schaubs sack numbers in comparison.. Carr has been pasted up and down and sideways - not the O-line. Thus, he's gone!

So the criticism (severe critcism and probably as bad as McNabb has received) on this board of Carr would have stood the same if he was purple...

Bill. You have to think outside of your box.

I'm not talking about on this board. I'm talking about football fans and football media in general.

I'm not sure if you're ignoring the fact that Most NFL fans and Media thought Carr was a good QB behind a bad O-line or if you're just denying it.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 05:02 PM
i'm not sure how you can say he has "sucky" teammates. he's always had a great defense, his o-line has always been good, and he's had some good talent in the backfield, too. the only "sucky" part has been the receivers, but that's it, really. you're trying to prove your point too much here by denying the facts.

last time I checked your receivers have a lot to do with the quarterback position....McNabb has not had the same level of talent of other QBs (Brady and Manning) yet he still faces the harsh criticism for not being able to win the "big game."

Texan_Bill
09-19-2007, 05:03 PM
Bill. You have to think outside of your box.

I'm not talking about on this board. I'm talking about football fans and football media in general.

I'm not sure if you're ignoring the fact that Most NFL fans and Media thought Carr was a good QB behind a bad O-line or if you're just denying it.

Thats probably true up until recently but forget all of that!!!

You're secret has been shared with me. I should have figured it was you. No worries...

BUT props, you got me....

Lucky
09-19-2007, 05:05 PM
2005 - 9 games on the field
2006 - 10 games.
That's the point. I don't think Reid thinks it's McNabb fault for being injured 2 years in a row. It's just that Reid can't take it on faith that McNabb will come back as good as ever. Reid has to keep his job, too. He couldn't bypass a future starting QB just to avoid McNabb's hurt feelings.

real
09-19-2007, 05:05 PM
...whatever that means.

It means that it isn't about the actual criticism itself.

It's about how McNabb is percieved.

Sure every QB recieves criticism, but I think McNabb's main point was that if he were white and doing the same exact things he's doing now, he'd be percieved differntly.

Not saying whether he's right or wrong, I'm just saying Tavaris Jackson has no relevance.

Unless you want to talk about the fact many doomed the Vikings for failure because of the "young" QB they had starting vs. the many people that call for Kellen Clemens to replace Pennington...

real
09-19-2007, 05:06 PM
Thats probably true up until recently but forget all of that!!!

You're secret has been shared with me. I should have figured it was you. No worries...

BUT props, you got me....


AHHHHAAAAA!:devilpig:

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 05:14 PM
3. the fact that some people can't get by the fact that he is a black quarterback
like who? is this just something you say that you can't prove, but no one can deny, either?

Unless you want to talk about the fact many doomed the Vikings for failure because of the "young" QB they had starting vs. the many people that call for Kellen Clemens to replace Pennington...
people love the backup, and Clemens has looked pretty damn good in his backup role, while Jackson has looked pretty average as a starter. that's just typical everyone loves the backup mentality, in a much larger market, too. although i'm not really sure who doomed the Vikings for failure because of Jackson, but hey, think what ya want.

also if it's all about perception, then it's my perception that McNabb is just trying to get away with the fact that the media as a whole is way too afraid to address McNabb's remarks without coming off as a bigot. screw him, he's using his race as a crutch, it's a slap in the face to those who faced real racist issues long before him.

real
09-19-2007, 05:19 PM
it's a slap in the face to those who faced real racist issues long before him.

I agree with this part, kinda sorta, a little bit.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 05:25 PM
like who? is this just something you say that you can't prove, but no one can deny, either?

Limbaugh is just one example, but it would be silly of us to sit up here and think that people still can't get past a mans skin color on the football field or in everyday life.....I can't prove that I passed a racist person in the street this past week, but does that mean that I'm crazy for saying that I did?

The Dream
09-19-2007, 05:31 PM
it's a slap in the face to those who faced real racist issues long before him.

What exactly is a "real" racist issue? Just because it's not in your face doesn't make it any less "realler" than any of it from the past. I'm not saying we should all stop what we're doing anytime someone calls racism, but we should at least be able to look at situations objectively without brushing them off as "not real."

My main point in all of this is that it is not insane for Mcnabb to think that there are those out there who criticize him, because he is a black quarterback.

Specnatz
09-19-2007, 05:33 PM
Limbaugh is just one example, but it would be silly of us to sit up here and think that people still can't get past a mans skin color on the football field or in everyday life.....I can't prove that I passed a racist person in the street this past week, but does that mean that I'm crazy for saying that I did?

Besides Rush who else?

Texans_Chick
09-19-2007, 05:38 PM
Some excerpts from what I wrote at FanHouse (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/bloggers/stephanie-stradley/) that I believe are germaine to what has been said so far:

I think anyone who does a job that has been traditionally not performed by people of their race or gender do feel like they have to perform better at their job in order to overcome people's traditional biases. Most of my career choices have been in traditionally male professions, and I know I've felt that way. And for some reason, it is grim to even admit that.

McNabb came into the league in 1999, a time where there still weren't many examples of successful black quarterbacks. He came into a very hostile situation where most fans didn't want him picked. Yeah, Philly had a history with Randall Cunningham, but when sports talk cretins make their arguments why they like this guy over that guy, often people's conscious or unconscious biases come to play. Stuff gets thought and stuff gets said.

And McNabb went through all that racial discussion brought up by Rush Limbaugh, certainly something that made him very aware of how at least some people perceive him.

I don't think you can live that without it affecting your world view. If you know there has been a history of not wanting black quarterbacks, and there isn't a long history of role models, I don't see why it is out of line to believe you have to work harder than your peers to overcome that bias.
...
Does Donovan McNabb get more criticism than his white counterparts? The quarterback position is the most scrutinized position in the NFL and is one of the few positions that even casual fans can say anything about. They get more credit and more criticism. Hard to measure relative criticism in different circumstances, but I could see how McNabb feels the way he does.

In 2006, I heard and read plenty of sports talk cretinism as it related to race and Vince Young. Right after the draft, on my former blog, any time I mentioned Vince Young, there would always be a few really nasty racial blasts that I'd have to delete. I am guessing that the stuff a black quarterback hears during the course of his life would probably be worse than that.

McNabb doesn't say everybody is racist, but I am sure he hears enough filth to make him feel he gets criticized more and has to work harder than his peers.

Some of the ugly racial stuff I read when I did the Chronic FanBlog stuff relating to Vince Young and his potential as QB, was so repugnant, I almost felt like I needed to wash my hands after I deleted that stuff.

And the thought experiment of thinking of black David Carr is an interesting one. Until Schaub was showing what he could do with the Texans offense, there were still tons of defenders of David Carr as QB, Schaub will get killed behind the putrid offensive line.

Black David Carr, mature with a family, coming outta Fresno State as the athletic first pick. Photogenic and a good Christian. Doesn't hang out with his teammates and not much of a leader. Strange throwing motion, and demonstrates difficulties reading defenses and moving around in the pocket and panicking. Hampered by poor coaching, system and talent around him.

I don't know the answer to that. As much as DC got criticized, I wonder if black DC would have been booted sooner.

This reminds me of Dave Chappelle's Black Bush sketch, where he makes the argument that there is no way that the American public would have followed a black president into war with the information that was available.

Anyway, I never like to talk about this stuff because if you do, you are labelled a libber or whiner or whatever. I know what kinda crap I've lived through working in traditionally male fields, so I am guessing that is times 100 in a high profile, high performance position like NFL QB.

And it is a hard subject to deal with. If you don't talk about what you go through, are you making it harder for those similarly situated? Or are you ducking the truth when you are asked a question of your opinion? If you stay quiet, you are a liar, and if you speak up, you are a whiner.

I had a boss who was eventually fired for being a racist/sexist bastidge of the worst variety. His tendencies were first pretty subtle. I got interviewed about him a year after I left that job and since then I've always wonder whether I would have been better off reporting him. You feel bad talking about it and you feel bad being quiet about it.

Personally, in McNabb's situation, I would have tried to beg out of the questions. Mostly because an NFL QB just has to suck it up for the good of others, can't spend time talking about controversial social issues and racial stuff always turns into a cluster. Just check out this thread.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 05:40 PM
What exactly is a "real" racist issue? Just because it's not in your face doesn't make it any less "realler" than any of it from the past. I'm not saying we should all stop what we're doing anytime someone calls racism, but we should at least be able to look at situations objectively without brushing them off as "not real."
actually that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. it's not real at all because he's manufacturing it out of nothing. just like you, he's "assuming" people are being racist towards him, and while there are obviously people out there who don't like him because he's black...who cares? he has no proof of actual racism, he just THINKS people are bigoted towards him. quite a far cry than those who actually received unfair treatment and had substandard living conditions because of their race.

so what if people don't like McNabb because of his race? it's not preventing him from living his life and doing his job, it's not affecting his performance on the field, it's not affecting his commercial potential, and it's certainly affecting his pocketbook.

so no, the racism he faces is certainly "not real." because it's not actually affecting him whatsoever, except in his head, where there's obviously all kinds of bizarre neurosis at work.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 05:50 PM
actually that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. it's not real at all because he's manufacturing it out of nothing. just like you, he's "assuming" people are being racist towards him, and while there are obviously people out there who don't like him because he's black...who cares? he has no proof of actual racism, he just THINKS people are bigoted towards him.

so it's not real because he can't "prove" it????....so I haven't passed anyone racist in the street in the past year, because I can't "prove" it???....

quite a far cry than those who actually received unfair treatment and had substandard living conditions because of their race.



dude he didn't come out and say that he has had it worst than other black man that has walked the face of this earth, lol, he just said that he does believe that there are those out there who look at him through a microscope, because he's black.

so what if people don't like McNabb because of his race? it's not preventing him from living his life and doing his job, it's not affecting his performance on the field, it's not affecting his commercial potential, and it's certainly affecting his pocketbook.


I'd beg to differ. Pressure affects athletes all the time and if he feels that he's being looked at unfairly by some it could spill over to his performance on the field.

so no, the racism he faces is certainly "not real." because it's not actually affecting him whatsoever, except in his head, where there's obviously all kinds of bizarre neurosis at work.

so it's not real racism because it doesn't directly affect him?....that's the biggest B.S. I've ever heard. So a guy could come up and call me the N word and that's not real racism because it doesn't affect my performance in school, at work, or any other aspect of my life? Racism is racism and a racist is a racist no matter if it directly affects an individual or not.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 05:58 PM
Some of the ugly racial stuff I read when I did the Chronic FanBlog stuff relating to Vince Young and his potential as QB, was so repugnant, I almost felt like I needed to wash my hands after I deleted that stuff.

And the thought experiment of thinking of black David Carr is an interesting one. Until Schaub was showing what he could do with the Texans offense, there were still tons of defenders of David Carr as QB, Schaub will get killed behind the putrid offensive line.

Black David Carr, mature with a family, coming outta Fresno State as the athletic first pick. Photogenic and a good Christian. Doesn't hang out with his teammates and not much of a leader. Strange throwing motion, and demonstrates difficulties reading defenses and moving around in the pocket and panicking. Hampered by poor coaching, system and talent around him.

I don't know the answer to that. As much as DC got criticized, I wonder if black DC would have been booted sooner.


Exactly. It amazed me how many people were sticking up for Carr last season and defending him yet questioning the abilities of VY.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 06:01 PM
so it's not real because he can't "prove" it????....so I haven't passed anyone racist in the street in the past year, because I can't "prove" it???....
all i'm saying is that what he experiences is nothing compared to what past generations of blacks have endured in this country, whereas you essentially equated the two scenarios as being the same. it's just not that black and white (pardon the pun). yes, there's racism involved, but it's just nothing in the grand scheme of things.
dude he didn't come out and say that he has had it worst than other black man that has walked the face of this earth, lol, he just said that he does believe that there are those out there who look at him through a microscope, because he's black.
indeed, but he doesn't have any real evidence. you say evidence isn't needed, i disagree. if you're going to accuse someone of being racist, you better have something to substantiate such a claim. and of course he could never do that, because he has nothing. he's using his race as a crutch.
so it's not real racism because it doesn't directly affect him?....that's the biggest B.S. I've ever heard. So a guy could come up and call me the N word and that's not real racism because it doesn't affect my performance in school, at work, or any other aspect of my life? Racism is racism and a racist is a racist no matter if it directly affects an individual or not.
the bottomline is, just because there are some people out there who may criticize a player for his race, doesn't mean it's so substantial that it needs to be brought up multiple times. he gets criticized mostly for his inability to stay healthy and his sporadic playoff performances. chad pennington didn't get the same negative talk before he put together a full season last year? and following the best year of his career, he's now getting the "put in the backup!" talk.

i want names, i want to see evidence, i want to see something that substantiates his claims.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 06:08 PM
Exactly. It amazed me how many people were sticking up for Carr last season and defending him yet questioning the abilities of VY.
and you just assume that's based on race. you're going to find those kind of arguments on every message board with every QB debate, no matter the color of either player. you can't just look at someone who's defending a white guy and downing a black guy and say "welp you're racist, that's the only reason you're doing this."

this reminds me of one time on a forum when a death penalty debate heated up and one guy accused those who were opposed to it (i'm not joking) of being pro-murderer/rapist/etc......asinine and totally not based in logic. you don't have to think every black player is incredible if you're not a racist. you're allowed to have your own opinions. personally between carr and young, it's a wash as to who blows more, but that's just my opinion. no reason to turn towards racism if it conflicts with yours. just be like Vinny and call me an *****.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 06:13 PM
all i'm saying is that what he experiences is nothing compared to what past generations of blacks have endured in this country, whereas you essentially equated the two scenarios as being the same. it's just not that black and white (pardon the pun). yes, there's racism involved, but it's just nothing in the grand scheme of things.

and all I'm saying is just because you're situation isn't as bad as your ancestors doesn't mean you should shut your mouth whenever the topic of race comes up.....that's essentially saying you're content with the status quo.

indeed, but he doesn't have any real evidence. you say evidence isn't needed, i disagree. if you're going to accuse someone of being racist, you better have something to substantiate such a claim. and of course he could never do that, because he has nothing. he's using his race as a crutch.


So were people wrong about being upset over hurricane katrina and crying racism even though they couldn't actually "prove" that anyone in the govt. was a racist themselves? Because there is a glass ceiling for blacks in various career fields it isn't racist, because they can't "prove" that those above them are racist themselves???...you can miss me with that man.

the bottomline is, just because there are some people out there who may criticize a player for his race, doesn't mean it's so substantial that it needs to be brought up multiple times.

how is he bringing it up multiple times? This is the first instance where I can remember saying that he felt this way. And if it does indeed exist it is important.

i want names, i want to see evidence, i want to see something that substantiates his claims.

everyone on this board knows that there are racist individuals out there in the world of sports......when it comes to the way players are looked at by fans (Texans Chicks example with VY), to radio host coming out and saying retarded things, to hiring and firing of black coaches, etc....there is plenty of "proof" out there which makes Mcnabb's comments seem like they're worthy of some actual thought.

The Dream
09-19-2007, 06:21 PM
and you just assume that's based on race. you're going to find those kind of arguments on every message board with every QB debate, no matter the color of either player. you can't just look at someone who's defending a white guy and downing a black guy and say "welp you're racist, that's the only reason you're doing this."


I never said anyone who defends a white guy and downs a black guy is racist....don't put words in my mouth. Looking back on things David Carr was pathetic...he stunk......anyone with any football knowledge knew this guy would never be worth crap....yet there are those who still stuck by him and believed that he would be a better draft choice than the more talented Vince Young. Add on all the stupid ass wonderlic/radio jokes and other things those same people say in other forums which are dare I say "racist" and we can easily see how race could be a factor in some peoples decisions.....it's not that far fetched of an idea if you really look at it.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 06:27 PM
it's at least the 2nd time McNabb has brought this up, i remember a Sportscenter "Sunday Conversation" from a few years ago where he echoed the same sentiments.

when i say "proof" i don't mean like documents or film or anything proving racism, i just want logical reasoning behind feelings that he feels have been racist towards him. just putting a blanket statement over everything and saying "we're expected to do better" means nothing, he's not saying anything, it can just be an opinion he pulled out of his ass because he doesn't like being criticized. how can he even say guys like Manning, Palmer, etc aren't criticized? of course they are. Manning had crosshairs on him since college. he and McNabb shared a lot of the same traits during their NFL career: lots of success in the regular season, annual Pro Bowl visits, lots of commercials and jersey sales, but nothing in the postseason. and in McNabb's case, he also has injuries. they've both been ripped thoroughly by everyone in the media for these things.

you're right, there are people out there who are racist and look at players for their race. so be it. that's the world we live in. but McNabb is saying that "we [black quarterbacks] get looked at differently than they [white quarterbacks] do." by who? the media? the racists in the deep south? every body? this is the problem i have. he's not generalizing by saying "some people look at black QB's differently than white ones" he's flat-out saying it like it's FACT that everyone looks at blacks different. and that's simply not true.

pappy
09-19-2007, 06:41 PM
no copy and pastes without links...please

McNabb is a crybaby and loses a ton of credibility out of this. I had a higher opinion of him before this stupid commentary.

I'm with you vinny , bad performances will always be dissected by the media no matter the race but if you add to those comments his calling his white receiver alittle white lightning ! He is just plain a racist person , and its a shame to have that in the spotlight by a community leader .

Double Barrel
09-19-2007, 06:55 PM
When he's healthy and playing his game, I've always maintained that McNabb is probably in the top 3-5 QBs in the NFL.

It is a bit disappointing to see him pulling this stunt, especially when he's tried in the past to avoid any mention of his race with regards to being a QB.

But, I guess it's either his perception of things or he's just looking for a cop-out.

kastofsna
09-19-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm with you vinny , bad performances will always be dissected by the media no matter the race but if you add to those comments his calling his white receiver alittle white lightning ! He is just plain a racist person , and its a shame to have that in the spotlight by a community leader .
i don't really think that comment is racist. pretty ironic though, all things considered.

Texans_Chick
09-19-2007, 09:26 PM
When he's healthy and playing his game, I've always maintained that McNabb is probably in the top 3-5 QBs in the NFL.

It is a bit disappointing to see him pulling this stunt, especially when he's tried in the past to avoid any mention of his race with regards to being a QB.

But, I guess it's either his perception of things or he's just looking for a cop-out.


I really didn't believe it was a stunt watching the footage. I think he answered the questions he received honestly and as they were asked to him.

Do I believe he really thinks that black QB's need to work harder?

Yes.

Do I believe he thinks that black quarterbacks get criticized more?

Yes

Do I believe that he thinks he needs to be careful about how he behaves and acts because he knows about the scrutiny and role modeling he has as a quarterback who is also black?

Yes.

And the controversy is an illustration of why is was wisest never to bring up race as it relates to him, no matter what his internal feelings are. To just shut up about stuff, work harder, try to have a good public image, and to not be controversial.

Do I believe he should say those things publicly in a society that can't talk about these issues without creating a poop storm? Probably not given what his job is. Race is just too divisive issue in our society.

There were people critical about David Carr's play on the field and sometimes those people would comment on his pretty boy looks and hair.

There were people critical about Vince Young's play on the field and sometimes those people would say racial things as a part of their criticism. That stings more than saying that you have a strange throwing motion.

White QBs just need to worry about their play.

Black QBs have a certain segment of society that might also judge them on their color. Historically, that judgment was more overt. Now, such judgments tend to be more subtle but those judgments are in the context of a history of overt discrimination against black QBs.

I'm not sure you can really have a battle of the evidence about this because it's his opinion based on what he has experienced.

TexanRevolution
09-19-2007, 10:39 PM
Just a random hypothetical question:

If David Carr was black and in the same exact situation, would it have been widely thought that it was his "O-line's" fault ?

I'm not saying it would have or it wouldn't have been. I honestly don't know. I suspect it would have been a little different, but I can't really say for sure.

First, let me say that I do believe racism exists...I don't think any reasonable person on this board would deny that fact. Just from reading these posts as objectively as possible, it seems clear to me that the primary difference between what you all are saying isn't the bottom line; rather, it seems that perspectives and/or personal experiences are coming into play here bigtime.

Real, I don't completely disagree with your posts, as I see it, you are speaking from experience...evidently you've experienced some situations which lead you to believe that certain segments of the population are judged more harshly by another segment. That being said, I can't help but note that it seems to me that this sentiment often leads to suspicion...which in turn leads to skewed perceptions and more victimization.

Perceptions are funny things...it doesn't matter if they are 'real' (as a point of fact) or not...its real to those who perceive it, thus the consequences are the same. So if you are looking for racism, you won't have to look too awful far to find plenty of it.

Nobody blames those who have been affected by racism to feel hurt by it...but to perpetuate a hurt by never giving it up & allowing for reconciliation seems to be a self-inflicted injury.

Texans_Chick
09-20-2007, 01:16 PM
Nobody blames those who have been affected by racism to feel hurt by it...but to perpetuate a hurt by never giving it up & allowing for reconciliation seems to be a self-inflicted injury.

Huh?

If throughout your life, you hear crap about your race or your gender or whatever, and it effects you on the job, why should anyone feel the need to reconcile that?

For example...

I was paid thousands of dollars less for her first real job in a traditionally male field than a guy hired at the same time with lesser qualifications. My boss at that job was eventually fired because of his longstanding subtle racist/sexist actions when he finally crossed the line enough to get busted for it. He wasn't even the worst boss I had.

The worst boss was someone who once got busted for having sex at the workplace, got suspended, but then got promoted, and eventually became the VP of human resources of all things. He was a racist, sexist donkey snake.

It stinks to just want to do your job but be judged by stereotypes and treated worse because of your immutable characteristics. Am I a victim? No, I don't feel like am nor by telling you about this stuff am I trying to further my status as victim. I am just truth speaking.

I know that things are much better than they used to be, but I have to say that I was surprised by all the sexist crap I've encountered in my working career.

You might think that people speaking the truth as they see it on race are victimizing themselves and not reconciling things. But the flip side of that is nowadays, anyone who dares to bring up race in any context is just throwing the "race card." Some think what he was saying was ill-legitimate, so he is throwing the race card. And for him, he is just answering a question trutfully as he sees it. I would be more surprised if he never came across racist stuff than if he did.

Argh, this is why I don't like when the NSZ crosses over in the sports world at all. Football is more fun.

real
09-20-2007, 01:19 PM
Huh?

If throughout your life, you hear crap about your race or your gender or whatever, and it effects you on the job, why should anyone feel the need to reconcile that?

For example...

I was paid thousands of dollars less for her first real job in a traditionally male field than a guy hired at the same time with lesser qualifications. My boss at that job was eventually fired because of his longstanding subtle racist/sexist actions when he finally crossed the line enough to get busted for it. He wasn't even the worst boss I had.

The worst boss was someone who once got busted for having sex at the workplace, got suspended, but then got promoted, and eventually became the VP of human resources of all things. He was a racist, sexist donkey snake.

It stinks to just want to do your job but be judged by stereotypes and treated worse because of your immutable characteristics. Am I a victim? No, I don't feel like am nor by telling you about this stuff am I trying to further my status as victim. I am just truth speaking.

I know that things are much better than they used to be, but I have to say that I was surprised by all the sexist crap I've encountered in my working career.

You might think that people speaking the truth as they see it on race are victimizing themselves and not reconciling things. But the flip side of that is nowadays, anyone who dares to bring up race in any context is just throwing the "race card." Some think what he was saying was ill-legitimate, so he is throwing the race card. And for him, he is just answering a question trutfully as he sees it. I would be more surprised if he never came across racist stuff than if he did.

Argh, this is why I don't like when the NSZ crosses over in the sports world at all. Football is more fun.


Wow...Great post....

Especially the part in bold.

real
09-20-2007, 01:26 PM
"Off hand, I probably wouldn't give you that. I wouldn't know," McNabb said. "Was I? Yeah, I was criticized a little bit. [More] than Rex Grossman? I don't think anybody, especially me, was criticized that much.

"But you know what? Early on, nobody talked bad about Rex Grossman. It was just late in the year. Rex Grossman … although he may not have been playing well toward the end of the year, they still finished the season off [13-3]. And it took for his head coach to say, 'He's our guy, he's the quarterback of this team, we're going to roll with him.' "

McNabb said people are trying to dig too deep, that he made his comments not to single out anyone, but to say black quarterbacks have to do a little extra to prove themselves.

"I never said Peyton [Manning] doesn't get criticized," McNabb said. "I never said Carson [Palmer] doesn't get criticized. I never said Tom doesn't get criticized, because they do. [B]We get criticized a little differently."


Yeah...I'm thinking my thoughts about "perception" weren't too off base...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-070919bearsbrite20sep20,1,1780015.story?coll=cs-bears-headlines

real
09-20-2007, 01:30 PM
VY's thoughts:

To play quarterback in the NFL, Vince Young said you must have thick skin and it doesn't matter if it's black or white.

While the Titan said he respects Philadelphia quarterback Donovan McNabb, he doesn't necessarily agree with his comments that black quarterbacks face more pressure and more criticism.




"That is his opinion. I really feel like myself, black or white quarterbacks, we all go through something because that is the life of a quarterback,'' Young said Wednesday. "You have to be able to handle all the pressure and you have to be able to handle the losses and you have to be able to handle the media saying this about you.

"If you can't handle it, then you have to get off that position and go play something else.''

McNabb, in an interview with HBO, said black quarterbacks face added pressure because there are fewer of them. He also said some people still don't want black athletes playing the position.

Young and McNabb are two of six black starting quarterbacks in the 32-team NFL. The others are David Garrard of Jacksonville, Steve McNair of Baltimore, Jason Campbell of Washington and Tarvaris Jackson of Minnesota. Byron Leftwich and JaMarcus Russell could start for Atlanta and Oakland, respectively, at some point this season.

Young's game has been scrutinized over the years, with questions about his throwing motion and his decision-making, but he's also been praised and last season he was NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year.

"I have a lot of respect for every quarterback that's in the NFL,'' Young said. "Everybody is going to have their opinions and this and that, but that is not my fight to fight.

"Right now over here with the Tennessee Titans, we are trying to go to the playoffs and we can't worry about all the other mess going on.''



http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070920/SPORTS01/709200411/1027

Double Barrel
09-20-2007, 01:45 PM
I think any QB, regardless of color, is going to be dogged hard in Philly. McNabb needs to keep in mind that his team's city is different than most.

kastofsna
09-20-2007, 01:51 PM
still waiting to hear what the hell he means by "a little differently."

also, first smart thing vince young has said yet!

WWJD
09-20-2007, 02:04 PM
The Philly fans eat their own so it must be very frustrating for him.

I think that's all he is. Frustrated. And sometimes one misspeaks under those circumstances.

He has a good life. He's blessed. Enjoy it Donovan!

real
09-20-2007, 02:19 PM
still waiting to hear what the hell he means by "a little differently."

also, first smart thing vince young has said yet!


Just a guess, but I think he's talking about how a lot of white QB's are looked at with an optimistic eye as where a lot of black QB's are widely looked at as guilty until proven innocent. Kinda like our Texans. A lot of fans complained about how the Texans in general weren't given a fair shake, and the media was just "hating" on us. A lot of people in Houston still feel that ESPN has an east coast/west coast bias. And then you have the outsiders looking in saying, "well you guys suck". It's all about your perception.

But on another note why is it that Blacks represent a great majority of every position except QB ?

Are the white QB's in the leauge just better than their black counterparts ?

Do less blacks play the QB position ?

Are whites just better suited for the position ?

Are there just not a lot of good black QB's ?



I dunno.

I do think there is some relevance to what McNabb is saying, but as I've said all along, I don't think it applied to him in that case. I just don't think his comments should be dismissed as a fallacy.

TexanRevolution
09-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Huh?

If throughout your life, you hear crap about your race or your gender or whatever, and it effects you on the job, why should anyone feel the need to reconcile that?

For example...

I was paid thousands of dollars less for her first real job in a traditionally male field than a guy hired at the same time with lesser qualifications. My boss at that job was eventually fired because of his longstanding subtle racist/sexist actions when he finally crossed the line enough to get busted for it. He wasn't even the worst boss I had.

The worst boss was someone who once got busted for having sex at the workplace, got suspended, but then got promoted, and eventually became the VP of human resources of all things. He was a racist, sexist donkey snake.

It stinks to just want to do your job but be judged by stereotypes and treated worse because of your immutable characteristics. Am I a victim? No, I don't feel like am nor by telling you about this stuff am I trying to further my status as victim. I am just truth speaking.

I know that things are much better than they used to be, but I have to say that I was surprised by all the sexist crap I've encountered in my working career.

You might think that people speaking the truth as they see it on race are victimizing themselves and not reconciling things. But the flip side of that is nowadays, anyone who dares to bring up race in any context is just throwing the "race card." Some think what he was saying was ill-legitimate, so he is throwing the race card. And for him, he is just answering a question trutfully as he sees it. I would be more surprised if he never came across racist stuff than if he did.

Argh, this is why I don't like when the NSZ crosses over in the sports world at all. Football is more fun.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear in articulating my point...please allow me the benefit of a mulligan.

I agree, these things do have a profound affect on our lives, they interfere with our relationships, our on the job performance, and even our own self-image...That being said, I think we have to leave the door somewhat open to the fact that our perceptions might be incorrect.

I've borne my fair share of comments, criticisms, and judgements (and yes, some were ethnically motivated); but I choose to move on. In those cases, a defeatest attitude only provides a greater opportunity for harm. Hell, if I gave three piles of monkey crap about all the stuff that's been said about me, I'd have a bullet in my head. I choose to move on. I choose to believe that a large number of people don't care about what race/gender/ethnicity we are, and would never think of making critical judgements about us based upon those things. To think otherwise reflects a certain self-serving bias/resentment/intolerance of our own that needs to be removed from us if we are to be fully functioning and healthy individuals.

I think a prime example of this is found in the case of children who have been abused (speaking from personal experience here). For many, feelings of hatred and anger are [naturally] directed toward the perpetrator. Eventually, those feelings become burdensome wounds that mask the initial hurt. It becomes easy to fall into the trap of self-pity or suspicion, which serve only to alienate us from those whom we consider and judge to be guilty. The real healing only comes after forgiveness. When we fail to forgive, we bear not only the hurt, but the sense of alienation that goes along with it; but when we make a conscious decision to forgive, we experience freedom from that bondage, and in doing so, we find the ability to live lives rooted in those great gifts of love and compassion...and that, my friend, is what will change this f-ed up world that we live in.

Talking about racism and prejudice where it exists is a service to humanity, but I would submit that a greater service is done when we extend hospitality, love, and compassion to those who disagree with us most vehimently...yeah, even to those who have perpetrated such crimes against us. Allowing those wounds which have been inflicted upon us to turn into bitterness, malice, and resentment makes us perpetrators as well. The bottom line is that we don't choose our affliction...but we can choose how to respond. After the passing of time, hopefully, we choose to respond positively.

Hope that makes sense.

Edit: So yeah, I guess those folks who feel that they have been the victim of racism do indeed have to work harder (at least in the above regard) than those who don't...I get that, and frankly, I think it sucks. But I think we all eventually have to realize that we do have the opportunity to rise above, and I pray to that end that Mr. McNabb will do just that. Personally, it makes me want to root for him all the more.

Hervoyel
09-21-2007, 10:38 AM
From The Onion.
Eagles Fans Give McNabb Three-Week Deadline To Win Super Bowl

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/eagles_fans_give_mcnabb_three_week

kastofsna
09-21-2007, 11:01 AM
pretty incredible.

BeerTastesLikeVictory
09-21-2007, 11:26 AM
I see valid arguments on boths sides, but the one thing I keep thinking is that I have not heard too much bad mouthing about McNabb in the nation media before this. Just about the most bad mouthed QB these days seems to be Rex Grossman.

Mr teX
09-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Well, while i'm a black guy & Mcnabb is my favorite player in the league, i'm gonna say that he isn't totally off in what he said, but i have to believe that it's more of him bieng frustrated with the native Philly fan base, eagle organization & his current injury more than anything else. After 9 years there & enduring the criticism he has from those classless bums (not all) during GOOD years, you have to figure he's reached his cracking point, especially since things aren't going well now.

The guy wasn't wanted there from day 1, the organization hasn't exactly been giving him much to work with, TO has basically convinced everyone that he's the reason they lost the SB & to top it all off Kolb has looked good in what little action he's seen.

I would love to see him go to another team who is a solid starting QB away (Chi, miami, baltimore, Minn) from making some noise & help push them over the top, b/c IMO Philly & the eagles don't deserve him anymore.

Double Barrel
09-21-2007, 12:32 PM
I would love to see him go to another team who is a solid starting QB away (Chi, miami, baltimore, Minn) from making some noise & help push them over the top, b/c IMO Philly & the eagles don't deserve him anymore.

Dude, McNabb on the Bears is a scary proposition. I have little doubt that he'd get a ring out of that deal, if not more.

Mr teX
09-21-2007, 12:39 PM
Dude, McNabb on the Bears is a scary proposition. I have little doubt that he'd get a ring out of that deal, if not more.

yeah, Lovie & company need to make that happen, it'd be the perfect set up for him. He'd be coming home, great D, decent weapons on offense & guaranteed division winner b/c the other teams are garbage. Plus he wouldn't be asked to pass the ball 7923404789 times like Andy Reid does.

jgl35
09-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Well, while i'm a black guy & Mcnabb is my favorite player in the league, i'm gonna say that he isn't totally off in what he said, but i have to believe that it's more of him bieng frustrated with the native Philly fan base, eagle organization & his current injury more than anything else. After 9 years there & enduring the criticism he has from those classless bums (not all) during GOOD years, you have to figure he's reached his cracking point, especially since things aren't going well now.

The guy wasn't wanted there from day 1, the organization hasn't exactly been giving him much to work with, TO has basically convinced everyone that he's the reason they lost the SB & to top it all off Kolb has looked good in what little action he's seen.

I would love to see him go to another team who is a solid starting QB away (Chi, miami, baltimore, Minn) from making some noise & help push them over the top, b/c IMO Philly & the eagles don't deserve him anymore.

I usually don't say much around here, but some things I have to respond to. Please do not lay this off on the fan base of the Eagles. Here is why.
The Eagles fans were asked to vote for a 75th anniversary team this year on the Eagles board. The best Eagle player of all time at his given position .
Over 600,000 votes were cast. The QB winner is D. McNabb over such people as hall of fame QB Norm Van Brocklin.

kastofsna
09-22-2007, 04:10 PM
I usually don't say much around here, but some things I have to respond to. Please do not lay this off on the fan base of the Eagles. Here is why.
The Eagles fans were asked to vote for a 75th anniversary team this year on the Eagles board. The best Eagle player of all time at his given position .
Over 600,000 votes were cast. The QB winner is D. McNabb over such people as hall of fame QB Norm Van Brocklin.
you should post more often. great point.