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YellerLotYeller
09-10-2007, 04:31 PM
ESPiN Article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989)

NFL security confiscated a video camera and its tape from a New England Patriots employee on the team's sideline during Sunday's game against the Jets in a suspected spying incident, sources said.


The camera and its tape were placed in a sealed box and forwarded to the league office for investigation, the sources said.

"We don't have any comment," an NFL spokesman said Monday.

The Patriots' cameraman was suspected of aiming his camera at the Jets' defensive coaches who were sending signals to their unit on the field, the sources said. The league also is investigating some radio frequency issues that occurred during the game.

Wow, they did this lst year in Green Bay....:shades:

powerfuldragon
09-10-2007, 04:36 PM
lame. i lost a bit of respect for the pats.

HJam72
09-10-2007, 05:38 PM
Yeah, this kind of thing is starting to look bad for them.

Second Honeymoon
09-10-2007, 05:58 PM
HUGE deal. If they were using video cameras to spy on opposing coaches you can expect a SEVERE draft pick penalty possibly a 1st Rounder.

GuerillaBlack
09-10-2007, 06:43 PM
Who would get the pick? The Jets? LT's claims last year after that playoff game are coming true.

Second Honeymoon
09-10-2007, 06:55 PM
Who would get the pick? The Jets? LT's claims last year after that playoff game are coming true.

they would forfeit the pick. no compensation for the Jets.

utahmark
09-10-2007, 07:03 PM
if they are cheating against the jets, a team they could clearly beat without cheating, then they are a bunch of idiots.

Cjeremy635
09-10-2007, 07:18 PM
If this is true, they lose a lot of credibility within the league and stand a huge chance of isolating "fans" like me who aren't die hard Patriots fans, just an average joe who enjoys watching them play now and then. They have a good team, no need to resort to classless actions such as that, but I shall wait to judge until all the facts are set straight.

JohnsonFan
09-10-2007, 07:19 PM
i as have always told ppl and still will say the pats have no class

Koolaid Time
09-10-2007, 08:19 PM
Yeah, this kind of thing is starting to look bad for them.

Read further into the story.. the SAME cameraman also had his camera and film taken away from him for doing the same thing at the Green Bay game last year.

Another thing-- the story talks about radio issues... at the Buffalo-New England game last year, the Buffalo coaches complained of "interference" in their link from the coaches box to the sideline last year..

Couldthe Pats been tapping the links?

Specnatz
09-10-2007, 10:37 PM
OK please explain to me how the Patriots could be messing with the communication between the coaches box and the field in the Meadowlands of all places. If it was Foxboro I might be able to see it but at someone elses stadium?

Sounds like the jets are making excuses on this one.

Koolaid Time
09-10-2007, 11:18 PM
OK please explain to me how the Patriots could be messing with the communication between the coaches box and the field in the Meadowlands of all places. If it was Foxboro I might be able to see it but at someone elses stadium?

Sounds like the jets are making excuses on this one.

Maybe making an excuse.... but it isn't difficult to jam the radio frequency that goes from the Box direct to the quarterback's helmet.

If the coaches are in close adjoining boxes, all you have to have is a something transmitting on a very close frequency.

sakebomb
09-11-2007, 05:30 AM
I heard they were playing with RC cars in the coaches box. :splits:

Tedc
09-11-2007, 05:39 AM
If there is any validity to this, the Commissioner better throw the book at the Pats.

Any hand slaps will have other teams following suit.

PapaL
09-11-2007, 05:42 AM
Read further into the story.. the SAME cameraman also had his camera and film taken away from him for doing the same thing at the Green Bay game last year.

Another thing-- the story talks about radio issues... at the Buffalo-New England game last year, the Buffalo coaches complained of "interference" in their link from the coaches box to the sideline last year..

Could the Pats been tapping the links?

They were simply using the Patriot Act...oh wait that wasn't made for their use. Oops. Sorry Belichick.

GoPats
09-11-2007, 10:56 AM
i as have always told ppl and still will say the pats have no class

Yes, they're truly a classless organization, top to bottom. :yawn:

Thing is, we may want to wait until the NFL makes an announcement of some kind on this one, no?

Last year, the Pats were accused of the same thing in Green Bay. Nothing happened as a result. This whole thing was instigated by members of the NY Jets security staff. The league has had the tapes for two days and haven't levied any punishment yet. Doesn't that tell you something?

And even if they are guilty, my understanding is that the penalty is forfeiting a mid or low-round draft pick. Usually the sentence serves the crime -- so the fact that there are no suspensions or fines involved should tell you how the league feels about this sort of "egregious" offense. All teams do it in one way, shape, or form. The Pats might have gotten caught. Simple as that.

mike moffat
09-11-2007, 11:35 AM
It's the American way these days. Do it until you get caught and then cry like a baby that the other guys are doing it.
This kind of thing disgusts me.

drewmar74
09-11-2007, 01:26 PM
More interesting reading on the Pats' "Get Smart" antics....

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1030707&format=text

"For a window into the Patriots' tactics, multiple Packers sources provided a fascinating account of what happened in the 35-0 victory last Nov. 19. A man identifying himself as a Patriots employee asked a security guard if he could shoot footage of Lambeau Field before the game, and permission was granted. Just before the game, he requested to stay on the sidelines to record quarterback Tom Brady for the coaching staff. However, he was soon spotted filming the Packers defense and signaling Patriots coaches. A member of the Packers security staff witnessed the exchange and asked him to leave. He retreated to the tunnel, continued filming, and appeared to be communicating with the coaches via hand signals before being escorted off the field. Asked why the Patriots weren't reported, a Packers executive suggested there was a code of silence regarding such matters, particularly after a blowout. "It bothers you that it's cheating," he said, "but it's not the reason they kicked our (butt)." It's interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff. "It's almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?" he said. "You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us. They ran plays that made us check out of some things. I don't know who calls their plays, but Belichick is pretty good. Honestly, he's pretty good."

Shifty.

I guess my question is: How common is this really? Or do I want to know?

:backsout:

PapaL
09-11-2007, 04:58 PM
Yes, they're truly a classless organization, top to bottom. :yawn:

Thing is, we may want to wait until the NFL makes an announcement of some kind on this one, no?

Last year, the Pats were accused of the same thing in Green Bay. Nothing happened as a result. This whole thing was instigated by members of the NY Jets security staff. The league has had the tapes for two days and haven't levied any punishment yet. Doesn't that tell you something?

And even if they are guilty, my understanding is that the penalty is forfeiting a mid or low-round draft pick. Usually the sentence serves the crime -- so the fact that there are no suspensions or fines involved should tell you how the league feels about this sort of "egregious" offense. All teams do it in one way, shape, or form. The Pats might have gotten caught. Simple as that.

Guilty; link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677)
Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.


Oh yeah, severe action is warrented. Take'em to the wood shed Goodell.

gtexan02
09-11-2007, 07:22 PM
I cannot believe this. Wow, what an embarassment for the Patriots, their coaches, and their fans.

The NFL should immediately suspend Bellicheck for the season, and make them forfeit their first game. It should go on the schedule as a tie with the Jets


If swinging games by being a ref is lifelong banning
And if simply BETTING on games is a life long ban

Then shouldn't intercepting and relaying all the signals of the opponents, which is clearly cheating, be similarly punnished??

If I was a Jets fan, I would be PISSED OFF

The1ApplePie
09-11-2007, 07:29 PM
To quote an annoying fad on another board:


LOL BUTTRIOTS !

gwallaia
09-11-2007, 08:31 PM
I don't know if an NFL game has ever had to be forfeited.

Cjeremy635
09-11-2007, 09:19 PM
exactly. maybe they were worried?

all i know is that i didn't like belichick before...and now this? i hope the pats are treated the way they deserve, multiple draft pick forfeits (ones that reeeeeeally matter, 1st day picks) and suspensions. if belichick is responsible for this i gotta say he's out for the year. it's one thing to be watching the opposing sidelines and maybe pickup a signal or two during a game but to film and study their signals? wow...makes you wonder how long they've been doing it...

What happens to picks they traded away? I thought I remember them trading a pick away in this last draft for one in the 08' to move up the board. If they traded a 1st rounder, what happens to it if it gets forfeited? Do they then still have to give it to the other team, then lose an equal amount of other picks that equal the same amount of points? This may have been covered or I may be reading too much into this. Just curious, that's all. Regardless, I hope they get what they deserve. I always thought they were a class act team and I am more disappointed than anything.

TexansLucky13
09-11-2007, 09:27 PM
It is an interesting question as to how the traded draft picks will be dealt with, if that punishment ends up happening.

Belichick is one of those "do whatever it takes" to win guys. I love his style and his vast football knowledge, but I wouldn't want to him to be my head coach. His ethics have never been ideal.

Cjeremy635
09-11-2007, 10:02 PM
Here's a picture of the Patriot's camera man:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_-Oha_7alHJ8/RuYeOezmwqI/AAAAAAAABMw/3uo4NQhZqR8/s1600-h/pats-camera.jpg
You would think they would have noticed him a little earlier....lol! :cool:

TexansLucky13
09-11-2007, 10:38 PM
Here's a picture of the Patriot's camera man:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_-Oha_7alHJ8/RuYeOezmwqI/AAAAAAAABMw/3uo4NQhZqR8/s1600-h/pats-camera.jpg
You would think they would have noticed him a little earlier....lol! :cool:

Are you kidding me? That is insane.

Cjeremy635
09-11-2007, 10:41 PM
Are you kidding me? That is insane.

I don't know if that's the guy or not.....it'd be funny as hell if it was though. :shades:

Spled
09-11-2007, 10:49 PM
They ought to be forced to forfeit the game.

real
09-11-2007, 11:49 PM
This is really dumb IMO....

Simple solution: Have two guys giving signals...One guy giving dummy signals and one guy giving the real call...Have them stand right next to each other so whoever is getting the signal is looking in one central location...If you want to really keep them on their toes, have three coaches, with two giving dummy signals...

In between every series let the MLB--or whoever is doing the playcalling in the huddle--know which coach is going to be active and which coach(es) is the dummy...

Just switch it up...It's really not that hard...

Opposing team wont know what signals are real and which ones are fake...

If my high school coach was smart enough to do this surely the guys in the NFL can figure this one out...

2BCF
09-12-2007, 01:43 AM
They should forfeit the win.

Barry Bonds said the Pats could borrow this for the record books on the '07 season: *

Koolaid Time
09-12-2007, 05:37 AM
But wait, it gets even better....

Electronic Surveillance....

From ESPN:

"The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game."

Bug on the Jets sideline perhaps?


Here's the Pats new logo:

http://www.stampedeblue.com/images/admin/Patriotsnewlogo.jpg

nfl-brit
09-12-2007, 06:31 AM
This is all over the MB at NFLUK.com, with Pats fans getting defensive and everybody else having a dig!

This is the sort of tactic used on the battlefield and has no place in sport, imho.

High-Tech, devious cheating is still cheating, and, to me "Everyone does it" smacks of Nuremburg!

Also, word over here is that the cameraman is the same bloke that the Packers escorted out of Lambeau - want to bet that he pops up in footage from other stadiums last year, should someone choose to check!?

Sheds a new light on Brady's proven ability to read a 'D', doesn't it!?

Tsk, tsk.:challenge

PapaL
09-12-2007, 07:51 AM
Updated Superbowl Poster:

http://touchdown.org/poster.jpg

HoustonFrog
09-12-2007, 11:46 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3015478

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick apologized to his team on Wednesday and confirmed that he has spoken to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell about his "interpretation" of league rules that ban videotaping of the opposing sideline.



It was not clear what Belichick was apologizing for, and the coach repeatedly refused to elaborate on a one-paragraph statement issued 10 minutes before a regularly scheduled news conference to discuss Sunday night's game against the San Diego Chargers.

Double Barrel
09-12-2007, 12:00 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

Noblesse Oblige
09-12-2007, 12:19 PM
But wait, it gets even better....

Electronic Surveillance....

From ESPN:

"The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game."

Bug on the Jets sideline perhaps?


Here's the Pats new logo:

http://www.stampedeblue.com/images/admin/Patriotsnewlogo.jpg

Radio frequencies could mean it extends to spying on offense, too. It could explain why they are so good at halftime adjustments.

Craziness. All wild speculation so far, but it could run deep.

Noblesse Oblige
09-12-2007, 12:21 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

In baseball, the unwritten rule is stealing signs with the naked eye is fine--but recall the big stink made when there are allegations of using electronic means such as a camera. that's the difference here too.

using cameras, video equipment, and maybe stealing radio signals is a lot different than talking to a former teammate or observing on the sidelines.

ATX
09-12-2007, 12:27 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

The difference between what you mention and this is the fact that you have a cameraguy on your sideline filming your coaches making calls. If the Pats want to steal calls from their side of the field, then fine by me, but you can't have a cameraman filming it from your side of the field. Stealing calls with the naked eye is one thing...even binoculars, but filming it is another thing IMHO.

PapaL
09-12-2007, 12:32 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

It's different knowing of potential plays than it is of knowing of a play as it is being run.

When you boil everything down it's either a run or pass; blitz or regular coverage. Everyone has that in their playbook. The golden knowledge is knowing when exactly those plays are called.

Mr teX
09-12-2007, 12:42 PM
Well, there goes that genius tag for Belichick, LOL.

In all seriousness though, With what they've done over the last couple of years, i would have to see a meltdown of epic proportions to believe that they had been doing this for a while.

I believe this brilliant idea popped in Belichick's head when Zach Thomas spilled the beans about the dolphins recording the audio of Brady's audibles. Belichick just went too far with it.

Noblesse Oblige
09-12-2007, 12:44 PM
Well, there goes that genius tag for Belichick, LOL.

In all seriousness though, With what they've done over the last couple of years, i would have to see a meltdown of epic proportions to believe that they had been doing this for a while.

I believe this brilliant idea arose when Zach Thomas confessed to the dolphins recording the audio of Brady's audibles. Belichick just went too far with it.

No amount of knowing the plays, etc., could have helped Vinatieri make those field goals. It could have made the situations in which they were meaningful possible, but you can't take that away from them.

Mr teX
09-12-2007, 01:06 PM
No amount of knowing the plays, etc., could have helped Vinatieri make those field goals. It could have made the situations in which they were meaningful possible, but you can't take that away from them.


Bingo, plus all those tough games before the superbowl & how Brady & the pats always seemed to have good ol' Peyton & the Colts' number.


& now Vinatieri is the chief reason why they won those championships & not Brady? That's been my opinion from the get go, but some people who watch too much espn........

Double Barrel
09-12-2007, 01:24 PM
In baseball, the unwritten rule is stealing signs with the naked eye is fine--but recall the big stink made when there are allegations of using electronic means such as a camera. that's the difference here too.

using cameras, video equipment, and maybe stealing radio signals is a lot different than talking to a former teammate or observing on the sidelines.

The difference between what you mention and this is the fact that you have a cameraguy on your sideline filming your coaches making calls. If the Pats want to steal calls from their side of the field, then fine by me, but you can't have a cameraman filming it from your side of the field. Stealing calls with the naked eye is one thing...even binoculars, but filming it is another thing IMHO.

It's different knowing of potential plays than it is of knowing of a play as it is being run.

When you boil everything down it's either a run or pass; blitz or regular coverage. Everyone has that in their playbook. The golden knowledge is knowing when exactly those plays are called.

Good replies, guys, and I truly appreciate the maturity of your responses.

Keeping with the devil's advocate angle (disclaimer so you know I'm not condoning what happened);

In today's day and age of sophisticated electronics, I think this tactic is going to become more prevalent. You can sit in the stands with a cell phone now and do the same thing. What is stopping a team from using their scouts - which all teams have to attend other games for advanced research of opponents - and syncing up video from a hand-cam or phone with game tape?

As much as we want to believe in honor and all that, the fact remains that the NFL is a multi-billion dollar business. And the same way that Fortune 500 companies will do underhanded things to gain a competitive edge, it should not surprise us that sports teams and athletes might do the same. The gain at the end of the day is lucrative, so the incentive will be there.

But I do agree with all of you that a line was crossed when electronic surveillance was used by the Patriots. It just wouldn't surprise me if they aren't the only ones that have used this tactic.

Noblesse Oblige
09-12-2007, 01:29 PM
Good replies, guys, and I truly appreciate the maturity of your responses.

Keeping with the devil's advocate angle (disclaimer so you know I'm not condoning what happened);

In today's day and age of sophisticated electronics, I think this tactic is going to become more prevalent. You can sit in the stands with a cell phone now and do the same thing. What is stopping a team from using their scouts - which all teams have to attend other games for advanced research of opponents - and syncing up video from a hand-cam or phone with game tape?

As much as we want to believe in honor and all that, the fact remains that the NFL is a multi-billion dollar business. And the same way that Fortune 500 companies will do underhanded things to gain a competitive edge, it should not surprise us that sports teams and athletes might do the same. The gain at the end of the day is lucrative, so the incentive will be there.

But I do agree with all of you that a line was crossed when electronic surveillance was used by the Patriots. It just wouldn't surprise me if they aren't the only ones that have used this tactic.

I definitely agree with you in that it is very tempting, easy (ish) to do given technology, and probably common.

As for how serious the punishment is, I don't think it will be very. Not with the pats being the culprit. If it was, say, the Raiders or the Bengals or something like that, then it would probably be much more severe.

HoustonFrog
09-12-2007, 01:29 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

DB, I'm going with some other folks here and saying that stealing signs is all good by me if you have a watchful eye or see a pattern but the viseotaping took it over the top. So I don't poopoo on the concept, just the methods.

ATX
09-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Good replies, guys, and I truly appreciate the maturity of your responses.

Keeping with the devil's advocate angle (disclaimer so you know I'm not condoning what happened);

In today's day and age of sophisticated electronics, I think this tactic is going to become more prevalent. You can sit in the stands with a cell phone now and do the same thing. What is stopping a team from using their scouts - which all teams have to attend other games for advanced research of opponents - and syncing up video from a hand-cam or phone with game tape?

As much as we want to believe in honor and all that, the fact remains that the NFL is a multi-billion dollar business. And the same way that Fortune 500 companies will do underhanded things to gain a competitive edge, it should not surprise us that sports teams and athletes might do the same. The gain at the end of the day is lucrative, so the incentive will be there.

But I do agree with all of you that a line was crossed when electronic surveillance was used by the Patriots. It just wouldn't surprise me if they aren't the only ones that have used this tactic.

Sophisticated equipment is something that is more and more common in today's world, but video cameras have been around for along time in Football and sports. On a side note, I remember seating so close at a Jags game last year, I could hear everything one of the defensive coaches was saying to the Dline. Those guys were right there in front of me.....and let me tell you Stroud and Henderson are some big dudes.

ChildressTitanMan
09-12-2007, 02:29 PM
Alright, devil's advocate for a sec...

Why is it "o.k." in baseball to try to steal signals, but not in football? I understand it's against the rules and unfair advantage and all that, but I'm strictly talking about principle here.

Teams and players have been stealing playbooks and signals for a long time. I remember hearing about it in the '70's as a Luv Ya Blue Oiler fan.

Isn't it an "unfair advantage" for Eric Moulds to go spill his guts about our offense to his new Titans team? What if he copied pages from our playbook and handed them off to Jeff Fisher? What if he gives them all he knows about audibles? (which he has probably already done) Where does that line get crossed?

I'm just curious about the double standard between sports. I'm not condoning it the behavior, but rather looking at it from a sociology perspective of why people think they way they do. Would anyone here feel different if the Texans were busted doing this?

It'd be like smack manna from heaven given your record.:splits:

Seriously though I don't think it looks good for Goodell's NFL shield to see Belichicks so called dynasty exposed as a corruption racket like this.

Which is worse,players breaking the law or a whole team being branded as cheats. Personally I think Belichick's media unfriendly persona doesn't help him at times like this.I'd say punish him or else the teams fans suffer but at least they have trophies to soften the blow.Draft picks taken away would be fitting.

real
09-12-2007, 02:53 PM
It'd be like smack manna from heaven given your record.:splits:

LMAO...:fans:

GoPats
09-12-2007, 03:27 PM
Bunch of crap I spewed earlier.

Well, guilty it is then. Punish 'em and let's move on. I admit I was 100% wrong about this, and am pretty shocked to tell you the truth. Depending on what Goodell does (which I actually think will be milder than most people want), and how the team does from here, the Pats would have to win two more SBs to erase any questions.

What's done is done. At least from here on out I'm pretty sure there won't be any more of this crap going on.

Double Barrel
09-12-2007, 03:57 PM
Seriously though I don't think it looks good for Goodell's NFL shield to see Belichicks so called dynasty exposed as a corruption racket like this.

Which is worse,players breaking the law or a whole team being branded as cheats. Personally I think Belichick's media unfriendly persona doesn't help him at times like this.I'd say punish him or else the teams fans suffer but at least they have trophies to soften the blow.Draft picks taken away would be fitting.

yeah, good points. The best penalty that I've heard so far is the salary cap limitations. I don't think the players should be held accountable for what the coaches are doing, and forfeiting games/playoffs seems a bit steep.

FirstTexansFan
09-12-2007, 05:23 PM
I don't believe the players should be held liable either, but what about the Jets players? Maybe they were cheated out of a victory? I realize that's a stretch, but they are victims of a team that cheated, even if some may claim the Patriots didn't need to do this to beat the Jets. I'd like to see across the board sanctions imposed on the Patriots, from draft picks, salary cap limitations, and the game recorded as a tie. The NFL is a product we all wish to have and portray the utmost integrity.

Grams
09-12-2007, 06:37 PM
NFL teams have been stealing signals from their opposition for years and years. It is nothing new. They send scouts to the other teams practices, get game film of the other team to study. Why do you think the OC holds the play card over their mouth when giving the QB the play? So the opposing team will not have someone that can read lips telling them the play.

How long does it take to take the video of the signals, analyzise it and get the info to the coach so he can get it to the QB? Are you going to analyize it at halftime and make adjustments? They have people taking poloroids of the field, regular game film, etc to make adjustments at halftime.

Think the NFL wanted to stop this techno stuff and decided that a team at the top would be a good one to start with so they picked the Pats to make a statement. Or they want to have the defensive players with a radio helmet and this was a good way to get it passed as it was 2 votes shy a little while ago.

The Pats may lose a draft pick or 2 - but they usually have them stockpiled and the coach may be suspended.

Don't get your panties in a wad about Belichek as he is not the only team in the NFL to do something like this. He is just the one that was caught first.

Yankee_In_TX
09-12-2007, 06:45 PM
Don't get your panties in a wad about Belichek as he is not the only team in the NFL to do something like this. He is just the one that was caught first.

And that's what counts.

Koolaid Time
09-12-2007, 07:27 PM
http://www.cs.usna.edu/~reninger/National_Security_Agency_seal.png

Official Electronic Surveillance Provider of the New England Patriots

StarStruck
09-12-2007, 07:48 PM
This brings up some issues that I think would be a good discussion topic for tomorrow. I think I will throw this one out there:
Midnight is the hour when men desperately seek to obey the eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not get caught." According to the ethic of midnight, the cardinal sin is to be caught and the cardinal virtue is to get by. It is all right to lie, but one must lie with real finesse. It is all right to steal, if one is so dignified that, if caught, the charge becomes embezzlement, not robbery. The Darwinian concept of the survival of the fittest has been substituted by a philosophy of the survival of the slickest. This mentality has brought a tragic breakdown of moral standards, and the midnight of moral degeneration deepens. M.L.K.

GlassHalfFull
09-12-2007, 07:50 PM
This brings up some issues that I think would be a good discussion topic for tomorrow. I think I will throw this one out there:
Midnight is the hour when men desperately seek to obey the eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not get caught." According to the ethic of midnight, the cardinal sin is to be caught and the cardinal virtue is to get by. It is all right to lie, but one must lie with real finesse. It is all right to steal, if one is so dignified that, if caught, the charge becomes embezzlement, not robbery. The Darwinian concept of the survival of the fittest has been substituted by a philosophy of the survival of the slickest. This mentality has brought a tragic breakdown of moral standards, and the midnight of moral degeneration deepens. M.L.K.

Amen!!

TxDavid
09-12-2007, 08:02 PM
The rules on this are clear - no electronic recording devices on the field - and they violated them. If you cheat, you pay the price.

They caught him during the game, so I think the punishment should be fitting. All points that were scored by the Pats prior to Mr Sneakyman's ejection should be erased from the scoreboard. The game should also be recorded as a loss for the Patriots. If the points removed prior to the camera ejection do not result in a Jets win, then the game is still recorded as a loss for them.

As for their Draft picks, the loss of their first round pick should be forfeited.

1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

Wolf
09-12-2007, 09:41 PM
I am brainstorming here, I would think it is like poker.
way it should be
when playing a hand, learn tendencies and such from the opponent and you capitalize on that and they capitalize on you

,but when you throw a video camera on each others hands, it takes some of the guess work out of it and you can see the hands


And in terms of football.. I mean if you happen to know what kind of defense they are running ..helps you pick a play that narrows the gap on what type of play to run that can guarantee success.(players still have to make the reads)..and with electronics, it makes it that much faster to know and what can increase the chances of "good" plays

Kaiser Toro
09-12-2007, 11:37 PM
even binoculars, but filming it is another thing IMHO.

I take offense to your favoritism towards binoculars.

Signed,
Kaiser Toro
Monocular user since 9/8/2007

Wolf
09-12-2007, 11:40 PM
I take offense to your favoritism towards binoculars.

Signed,
Kaiser Toro
Monocular user since 9/8/2007

we know KT about your use of binoculars :heh:

http://www.polarbearrepublic.com/images/2005/Feb/julietexans.jpg

Koolaid Time
09-13-2007, 12:59 AM
Apparently SOME photographic equipment is allowed however...

Often you see on TV right after drives the QB looking at a series of overhead photographs of the formations/plays just used.

So, you can have photographic equipment, you just can't have it focused on the bench on the other side.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
09-13-2007, 06:00 AM
http://bogp.com/recordingits.gif

Señor Stan
09-13-2007, 06:14 AM
I take offense to your favoritism towards binoculars.

Signed,
Kaiser Toro
Monocular user since 9/8/2007

Binoculphobe!

powerfuldragon
09-13-2007, 08:59 AM
I take offense to your favoritism towards binoculars.

Signed,
Kaiser Toro
Monocular user since 9/8/2007
i get the best of both worlds with my vintage piece used once on hoth. http://www.sandtroopers.com/MOTM/hothgear.jpg

Wolf
09-13-2007, 06:56 PM
According to a source, the league will definitely take a first-day draft pick away from the Patriots, perhaps a first-round selection, the most valuable annual commodity any team owns in terms of replenishing its roster.

In addition, Goodell is seriously considering a multiple-game suspension for Belichick, which would bar him from attending New England's games or practices, and force him to stay way from the Patriots' team complex in Foxboro, Mass., for the duration of the suspension. In addition, Belichick would forfeit any paychecks he was due while the suspension was in effect.

The NFL is said to be trying to balance out the punishment equitably between the Patriots as an organization and Belichick personally. The league's rationale behind not just stripping New England of multiple draft picks and foregoing a suspension is the recognition that Belichick could leave the organization at some point in the near future, and thus not suffer the full consequences of the penalty as much as the franchise and the next Patriots coach would.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.html

OzzO
09-13-2007, 06:59 PM
Wow, bring the hammer down Goodell

gwallaia
09-13-2007, 07:00 PM
I think they should make the Patriots wear sissified pink uniforms, lacy socks and the word "CHEATERS" on their helmets.

............And oh yeah, call them for holding on every play.

And make it a two game penalty.

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 07:40 PM
Not that harsh at all. I thought I'd be worse.

Final ruling
By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff
Here is the final ruling from the NFL:


Bill Belichick has been fined $500,000 by the NFL.


The Patriots have been fined $250,000 by the NFL.


The Patriots will give up their first-round pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs. If they don't make the playoffs, they will surrender second- and third-round picks.


Belichick will not be suspended.

“This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field,” Commissioner Goodell wrote in a letter to the Patriots.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

Wolf
09-13-2007, 08:05 PM
I don't really know what I was expecting

but doesn't seem like much of a fine

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."


I don't know about that,Pats are a pretty deep team and not sure if one first rounder is going to hurt them long term. They have a really good plug-n-play system up there

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 08:08 PM
I don't really know what I was expecting

but doesn't seem like much of a fine

ditto.

I'm also hearing that the Pats have 2 picks in the first round next draft (1 acquired from SF). do they only lose 1 of those, and get to keep the other?

Wolf
09-13-2007, 08:13 PM
doesn't really hurt NE.. they have San Francisco's #1 also so they lose one of their #1's next year

Wolf
09-13-2007, 08:13 PM
ditto.

I'm also hearing that the Pats have 2 picks in the first round next draft (1 acquired from SF). do they only lose 1 of those, and get to keep the other?

yeah, beat me to the punch

powerfuldragon
09-13-2007, 08:13 PM
ditto.

I'm also hearing that the Pats have 2 picks in the first round next draft (1 acquired from SF). do they only lose 1 of those, and get to keep the other?
it's almost like they planned this.

pappy
09-13-2007, 08:15 PM
A conditional 250,000 and probably a first round pick see site posted below ,coach was also fined .


http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=NFL

Joe Texan
09-13-2007, 08:17 PM
For one to say every one does it, is stupid, The pats got busted and that is that. They should be made the example and make it count. The entire coaching staff should be banned from the NFL. The team should be fined $100,000,000 so it hits the owner in the face for allowing it to go on. I personally think it should be $700,000,000 and if it not paid then the franchise goes to LA or whoever gets the priviledge. This is not something that should be taken lightly, It teaches your kids that it is ok to cheat for christ sake. It is wrong and the people that it should affect is the owner and the coaching staff. When you hit them hard the Fans will hit them too. The Pats are the only franchise to ever get caught and they had this same problem in Green Bay and Miami in the past. They are guilty as sin and they deserve anything and everything they get plus more.

Second Honeymoon
09-13-2007, 08:18 PM
the patriots just got owned by Goodell. losing a first round draft pick is disastrous and will send a message to the Patriots and the rest of the NFL that this type of subterfuge is unethical and costly if caught.

i cant stand Bill so I am glad this is happening..serves him right.

powerfuldragon
09-13-2007, 08:19 PM
the patriots just got owned by Goodell. losing a first round draft pick is disastrous and will send a message to the Patriots and the rest of the NFL that this type of subterfuge is unethical and costly if caught.

i cant stand Bill so I am glad this is happening..serves him right.

no. they have two first rd picks.

pappy
09-13-2007, 08:23 PM
no. they have two first rd picks.

This is true but my question is who gets the pick they give up ?

Wolf
09-13-2007, 08:25 PM
one guy made a point on the Carolina board.

Wade Wilson buys HGH "for his health" and gets 5 games. Bellicheat CHEATS IN A GAME and they might lose a draft pick and they're fined


http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/nfl-football-central/59272-pats-punishment-first-day-pick-highly-likely-suspension-possible.html#post1123807

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 08:31 PM
one guy made a point on the Carolina board.



http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/nfl-football-central/59272-pats-punishment-first-day-pick-highly-likely-suspension-possible.html#post1123807

I knew they wouldn't be as draconian with the Golden Boys of the NFL as they would have been with a team like, say, the Raiders, but this is rather transparent I think. Goodell isn't going to get good grades for this ruling.

Specnatz
09-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Elle I think comparing someone who cheated in sports to someone who betrayed this Country is a bit harsh, don't you think.

Joe I do not understand why you would want to punish the football fans in Boston for, they did not do anything wrong. Yes Bill should have been suspended for about 4 or 5 games but to make it to where the owner can not afford the team and or goes into the poor house does not serve a purpose.

Like I said I think the penalty should be harsher. The Patriots are getting off way to light.

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 08:40 PM
the patriots just got owned by Goodell. losing a first round draft pick is disastrous and will send a message to the Patriots and the rest of the NFL that this type of subterfuge is unethical and costly if caught.

i cant stand Bill so I am glad this is happening..serves him right.

I disagree--Goodell didn't pwn anyone. He basically told them to write "I will not cheat" 25 times by the next day.

As has been said they have 2 first round picks, and 250,000 is nothing. Especially if you think they have been cheating for a long time and it contributed to their success.

Disappointing.

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Exactly! Thanks, N.O.

How many rings did he and Golden Boy get by ripping off the other guys?

Godell was a wuss on this call. A Really Big Wuss.

I have no idea how deep it goes. It's hard not to be paranoid. I don't know if it got buried in the other thread, but Dr. Z from SI had an article that quoted Mike Martz who was talking to Marvin Lewis. Martz said he remembered being in NE having a good drive when all of a sudden the radio unit stopped working and he lost direct communication with the QB. Lewis said the same thing happened to him.

that on top of the reports of strange radio signals coming from the Pats, with this, makes me suspicious. Maybe they knew even more than we think. Maybe not.

I think Goodell just wants this to go away. More digging wouldn't be good for the NFL right now. But if his goal is to get people to shush (not Mario's celebration), he's going about it the wrong way. It seems most folks perceive this as unfair and too light, so the questioning will continue.

Grams
09-13-2007, 08:53 PM
You guys are making this way more serious than it really is. Teams have been stealing signals from other teams for decades. The scouts job is to steal signals. Why do you think they cover their mouths when they talk to the QB, so the opposition can't read their lips.

There are a lot of plays, that this old grandmother who never played football knows what the defense is going to do.

Is it wrong - yes
Are the Pats the only team doing it - no
Is the penalty harsh enough - probably not

But penalizing a team 700 mill is a bit of overkill. Having the fans lose their team by moving it to another city - well we sure didn't like it. Banning the coaches doesn't serve any purpose either - how many coaches are you going to ban, Crennel, Mangini also - as they were part of the Pats.

If Mangini was that much against it, why did he not speak up sooner while he was on the Pats staff or last year when he had left. No - he waited til they were playing him.

In the end, even if you know what the defense is going to do, the players still have to make the throw, make the catch, miss the tackles, the oline still needs to block. Then you defense needs to stop the other team. Winning or losing a game is still up to the players on the field, not the coaches.

Cjeremy635
09-13-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm still amazed that they didn't catch this guy any sooner. It was so obvious.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l81/cjeremy635/kameran2_S.jpg

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 09:06 PM
Word is after seeing Rocky IV, the Pats have decided to implement a new espionage device, disguised as a helpful robot to be anonymously delivered to every other team in the league.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u80/golden_sombrero/robot.jpg

The1ApplePie
09-13-2007, 09:19 PM
They should ban Bill from wearing hoodies on the sidelines for life

The most classless coach in the NFL is also a cheater.

Double Barrel
09-13-2007, 09:42 PM
You guys are making this way more serious than it really is. Teams have been stealing signals from other teams for decades. The scouts job is to steal signals. Why do you think they cover their mouths when they talk to the QB, so the opposition can't read their lips.

There are a lot of plays, that this old grandmother who never played football knows what the defense is going to do.

Is it wrong - yes
Are the Pats the only team doing it - no
Is the penalty harsh enough - probably not

But penalizing a team 700 mill is a bit of overkill. Having the fans lose their team by moving it to another city - well we sure didn't like it. Banning the coaches doesn't serve any purpose either - how many coaches are you going to ban, Crennel, Mangini also - as they were part of the Pats.

If Mangini was that much against it, why did he not speak up sooner while he was on the Pats staff or last year when he had left. No - he waited til they were playing him.

In the end, even if you know what the defense is going to do, the players still have to make the throw, make the catch, miss the tackles, the oline still needs to block. Then you defense needs to stop the other team. Winning or losing a game is still up to the players on the field, not the coaches.

Great post.

It's not about teams stealing each others signals. It's about the Patriots violating the rule book that specifically mentions video cameras. I'm fine with the punishment fitting the violation in the NFL's eyes.

It's a very interesting sociology study to watch the witch hunt among media and fans, though. I've heard some pretty angry demands as harsh as a lifetime ban on Belichick. It's like the dude killed their kitten or something.

Heath Shuler
09-13-2007, 09:43 PM
Yet it's ok that all he is tossed is a fine and a draft? The ass should be banned.

If Vick is banned for dogs, why not ban Bell-a-Chick for cheating to win Rings?

Seems a bit off sided if you think about it.

Sure, pleading guilty to federal felony charges and attempting to gain an unfair advantage are exactly the same.

Yankee_In_TX
09-13-2007, 09:44 PM
BWAHAHAHAH! I hate the Pats!

Noblesse Oblige
09-13-2007, 09:58 PM
Sure, pleading guilty to federal felony charges and attempting to gain an unfair advantage are exactly the same.

Another one of looking at it is conduct heinous but unrelated to football yielding an indefinite suspension (probably 2 years), and conduct that directly calls into question the integrity of the game equaling a fine that is large in raw amount but paltry in the sense of its impact on the assessed. The pick is significant but they do just so happen to have 2 in the first round, so no huge deal.

the biggest fallout to the Pats is not the official action of the NFL, but rather the loss of prestige in many fans' eyes, and a slackening of the media worship they are used to getting. sunday night football will be interesting.

infantrycak
09-13-2007, 10:30 PM
The pick is significant but they do just so happen to have 2 in the first round, so no huge deal.

Whether or not they have 2 next year is irrelevant--they gave up something to have the 2nd 1st round pick. This is like people who walk into a casino with $100 get up $400, lose it all and tell people they lost $100--BS, you lost $500.

infantrycak
09-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Yet it's ok that all he is tossed is a fine and a draft? The ass should be banned.

If Vick is banned for dogs, why not ban Bell-a-Chick for cheating to win Rings?

Seems a bit off sided if you think about it.

Any excuse to try to make a Vick isn't so bad argument I guess.

If they can ever prove there was cheating in other games there may be additional penalties. Right now they are being penalized for what they have been proven wrong in--one game.

Wolf
09-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Whether or not they have 2 next year is irrelevant--they gave up something to have the 2nd 1st round pick. This is like people who walk into a casino with $100 get up $400, lose it all and tell people they lost $100--BS, you lost $500.

if I was reading it right, they had 2 number 1's this year(Seattle's #24 and 28) ..traded the 28th pick for sf's 4th rounder of the same year and got SF's #1 rounder in 2008
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/?p=1164

so they basically they lost deon branch (who they got for Seattles #1)


just for conversation sake.

infantrycak
09-13-2007, 10:59 PM
However you look at it you are losing a 1st round player. It is better to have Merriweather and Staley than have Merriweather or Staley. Taking a 1st round talent away is losing the same thing regardless of whether you are supposed to get 1 or 4.

Maddict5
09-14-2007, 06:07 AM
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3353/attachmentvp5.jpg

gjmac2
09-14-2007, 07:29 AM
You guys are making this way more serious than it really is. Teams have been stealing signals from other teams for decades. The scouts job is to steal signals. Why do you think they cover their mouths when they talk to the QB, so the opposition can't read their lips.

There are a lot of plays, that this old grandmother who never played football knows what the defense is going to do.

Is it wrong - yes
Are the Pats the only team doing it - no
Is the penalty harsh enough - probably not

But penalizing a team 700 mill is a bit of overkill. Having the fans lose their team by moving it to another city - well we sure didn't like it. Banning the coaches doesn't serve any purpose either - how many coaches are you going to ban, Crennel, Mangini also - as they were part of the Pats.

If Mangini was that much against it, why did he not speak up sooner while he was on the Pats staff or last year when he had left. No - he waited til they were playing him.

In the end, even if you know what the defense is going to do, the players still have to make the throw, make the catch, miss the tackles, the oline still needs to block. Then you defense needs to stop the other team. Winning or losing a game is still up to the players on the field, not the coaches.

Could not agree more. The collective *GASP* from the national media and NFL is ridiculous. Does anyone actually beleive that cheating does not go on all the time in sports? There is way to much money involved for cheating not to go on. Heck, how often do we hear about High School kids taking steriods, for crying out loud!

Those of you who think this is such a big deal need to get off of your high horse. The Patriots got caught, which sucks for them. They were punished for it. End of story, IMO.

P.S. For you Eagles, Panthers and Rams fans who want your teams to be rewarded a Super Bowl victory, well, your team(s) are cheating as well, so get over it.

BTW, I am a Texans fan.

:texflag:

infantrycak
09-14-2007, 09:04 AM
Does anyone actually beleive that cheating does not go on all the time in sports?

Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.

gjmac2
09-14-2007, 09:23 AM
Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.

Your exactly right. That argument would not work in getting out of a speeding ticket.

That argument also did not work in this case either. Belichek was caught, and he and the Patriots have been punished.

My point that there is to much, IMO, fake shock and astonishment that an NFL team would stoop to cheating to get an advantage. To me, some of people commenting on this are casting stones while living in glass houses.

infantrycak
09-14-2007, 09:33 AM
My point that there is to much, IMO, fake shock and astonishment that an NFL team would stoop to cheating to get an advantage.

I agree that the ban him for life, this is worse than Vick crowd are going overboard. Losing a 1st round pick or a 2nd and 3rd are pretty darn steep IMO. These folks are acting like not having Ryans and Winston on the team would be no big deal.

Mr teX
09-14-2007, 09:47 AM
Your exactly right. That argument would not work in getting out of a speeding ticket.

That argument also did not work in this case either. Belichek was caught, and he and the Patriots have been punished.

My point that there is to much, IMO, fake shock and astonishment that an NFL team would stoop to cheating to get an advantage. To me, some of people commenting on this are casting stones while living in glass houses.

The astonishment comes from it being the patriots, the closest thing to a modern day dynasty in the NFL & current superbowl favorites. It's also the whole "world class organization" tag that has been given to them. In other words, Most people would probably guess they'd be the last ones to cheat, or at least get caught doing it.

I agree it's overblown a tad bit but hey, doesn't the media do this to almost everything?

Specnatz
09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.

Yes I have. Got stopped one time and was asked why I was speeding and I siad because I have not seen a cop on this road in over 9 months so I thougt what the hell.



He let me go with a warning.

dtran04
09-14-2007, 09:58 AM
I think Bob Kraft is fine paying 500K and a pick here and there for 3 super bowls. Very cheap. :)

Double Barrel
09-14-2007, 10:01 AM
Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.

No doubt about it. The Pats got caught and will pay a steep price.

But the way some folks act, you get caught speeding and they want to take away your car, suspend your license, and fine you $50,000.00.

Bringing Vick into this discussion is not even a weak arguments. It's apples and oranges to compare killing dogs for a blood sport with anything of this nature. Lame.

Mr teX
09-14-2007, 10:02 AM
I think Bob Kraft is fine paying 500K and a pick here and there for 3 super bowls. Very cheap. :)

500K is to belichick himself, not Kraft. Kraft gets the 250k fine.

Marcus
09-14-2007, 10:05 AM
It's not about teams stealing each others signals. It's about the Patriots violating the rule book that specifically mentions video cameras. I'm fine with the punishment fitting the violation in the NFL's eyes.

It's a very interesting sociology study to watch the witch hunt among media and fans, though. I've heard some pretty angry demands as harsh as a lifetime ban on Belichick. It's like the dude killed their kitten or something.

No kidding!

All this holier-than-thou sanctimonious 'uproar' is pretty silly if you ask me.

Belichick has always been somewhat of a maverick to the league. Something that was mentioned on the NFL network, is that every off-season, Belichick pushes rule changes to the Competition Committee, especially rule changes to ones that he considers obsolete, or ineffective, given today's environment.

And if he doesn't get his way, he has been known to "create the situation" that forces the issue, leading them to adopt the change that he's requesting. It will be very interesting to see what, if any, changes are made to rules regarding video cameras.

Belichick is one sly dog.

Vinny
09-14-2007, 10:13 AM
lol at this thread (I haven't read it till now)...funny, sad and obnoxious all in one place. nice

Marcus
09-14-2007, 10:18 AM
lol at this thread (I haven't read it till now)...funny, sad and obnoxious all in one place. nice

If you don't mind taking the time Vinny, what do you find funny, what do you find sad, and what do you find obnoxious?

Just curious, that's all . . . am interested in your take.

gjmac2
09-14-2007, 10:22 AM
lol at this thread (I haven't read it till now)...funny, sad and obnoxious all in one place. nice

In what way? Please, enlighten us with your brillance, oh mighty sage!

:confused:

Vinny
09-14-2007, 10:31 AM
In what way? Please, enlighten us with your brillance, oh mighty sage!

:confused:
The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.

Specnatz
09-14-2007, 10:33 AM
The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.

I agree 100%, I mean if Bill would have gotten a few games to go along with it I would have had no issue either.

Hervoyel
09-14-2007, 10:42 AM
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?

gjmac2
09-14-2007, 10:43 AM
The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.

I stand corrected. Good post.

Vinny
09-14-2007, 10:46 AM
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?
When OJ went on trial all those gossip rags started looking thru their archives for pictures of OJ with those rare shoes on...I can see the press trying to whip the fans into a frenzy...they sell more mags, more advertising and make more money when the fans are whipped up and mindless.

Double Barrel
09-14-2007, 11:01 AM
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?

Players still have to make plays. I saw Randy Moss covered by THREE guys last week and he still burned them. No amount of signal stealing is going to change the fact that Tom Brady is a great QB and Moss can be a great WR when he applies himself.

There are some truly myopic perspectives out there, and I think most of it is born from jealousy of the Patriots' success. If this had been the Cleveland Browns getting caught, I doubt it'd even be a front page story, much less the feeding frenzy currently going on.

Hervoyel
09-14-2007, 11:08 AM
I get that DB, I'm just wondering whether or not the NFL will find itself in a position where it almost has to overreact to the charges. I think it's a possibility. Right or wrong lots of fans seem to feel like the Patriots got off a little light (I believe it was just about right myself, maybe a tad cheap on the money) and if the press can prove (or even just come close to proving) that the Patriots have been doing this for years then a lot of those fans are going to go even more ape about it.

Texan_Bill
09-14-2007, 11:12 AM
i cant stand Bill so I am glad this is happening..serves him right.


WTF did I ever do to you???? j/k

Joe, I can garauntee you that all teams try to pick off signals. Not videotape mind you, but try to pick them off nonetheless - very similar to baseball.

Double Barrel
09-14-2007, 11:13 AM
Oh, I don't disagree with you, Herv. (I was just piggy-backing your points.)

This situation could easily develop into a bigger feeding frenzy if the media keeps whipping up the masses into hysteria.

infantrycak
09-14-2007, 11:25 AM
Interesting story for comparisons sake:

PARIS — The McLaren team was fined US$100 million and stripped of all of its points in the constructors' standings Thursday in the spy scandal that has rocked the sport.

The case broke open in July when a 780-page technical dossier on Ferrari cars was found at the home of McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who was later suspended. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, who allegedly supplied the documents, was fired.

Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296723,00.html)

I wonder if they did the Dr. Evil voice when they announced the fine.

Mr teX
09-14-2007, 11:28 AM
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.

Texan_Bill
09-14-2007, 11:42 AM
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.

I agree Mr. Tex... Good post.

Specnatz
09-14-2007, 12:15 PM
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.

I swear I will find a small animation of a smiley being run over by a bus.

Goddell has a huge bus and he has a lead foot.

Marcus
09-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.

Exithios
09-14-2007, 12:51 PM
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.

And I believe that, although it faltered with the NFL committee this past offseason, this will be what gets comm gear for the D-Coordinator and middle linebacker/defensive captain to go through for the 08 season.

My $0.02

Mr teX
09-14-2007, 12:57 PM
And I believe that, although it faltered with the NFL committee this past offseason, this will be what gets comm gear for the D-Coordinator and middle linebacker/defensive captain to go through for the 08 season.

My $0.02

i agree, i never understood why the QB & O-coordinator could get that but the D captain & D coordinator couldn't.

HoustonFrog
09-14-2007, 01:16 PM
Wade Wilson says punishments inconsistent

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

"To me, they're holding the organization accountable instead of the person." On Sept. 1, the NFL suspended Wilson for five games and fined him $100,000 -- nearly a third of his salary as an assistant coach. Wilson, who has suffered from diabetes for 24 years, admitted he purchased medication -- believed to be HGH -- banned by the league's substance abuse policy, although he said he did not know the rule applied to coaches as well as players. Wilson did so while working as an assistant coach for the Chicago Bears and turned over phone records and credit card receipts in a seemingly successful attempt to convince the league he was taking them for his own personal benefit and not distributing them to players

infantrycak
09-14-2007, 01:16 PM
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.

If there is any rule change it will be to having radios on the D like the QB's had. 22 owners voted for it last year so they were only 2 short.

You have to be joking about cell phones--no way they have the resolution to get the job done.

Noblesse Oblige
09-14-2007, 01:27 PM
No kidding!

All this holier-than-thou sanctimonious 'uproar' is pretty silly if you ask me.

Belichick has always been somewhat of a maverick to the league. Something that was mentioned on the NFL network, is that every off-season, Belichick pushes rule changes to the Competition Committee, especially rule changes to ones that he considers obsolete, or ineffective, given today's environment.

And if he doesn't get his way, he has been known to "create the situation" that forces the issue, leading them to adopt the change that he's requesting. It will be very interesting to see what, if any, changes are made to rules regarding video cameras.

Belichick is one sly dog.

The video recording is only one facet of this. A bigger issue in my view is the radio frequency discrepancy that was initially reported, coupled with Dr. Z's reports about radio problems in Foxboro for opposing teams. There should be a continued investigation into this. I don't know if there will be--this whole ruling looks to me like Goodell trying to nip it in the bud and whitewash the whole thing. The NFL wouldn't really benefit from a deeper disclosure of espionage techniques if, in fact, there is more to the story.

Vinny
09-14-2007, 02:07 PM
Wade Wilson says punishments inconsistent

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

"
I find it far worse that a coach is purchasing hgh than a team trying to steal signals. There is no decent test for hgh as far as I know. I used to get my roids via a strength coach from a College football team back in the early 80's so I think the NFL is spot on coming down as hard as they did on the Coach for hgh. Ignorance is never a good excuse when you break the rules. A lot of hgh users become diabetics because it is common practice to inject insulin when taking hgh....this may be a chicken and egg thing with the Coach.

Hervoyel
09-14-2007, 03:37 PM
If it were up to me the radio would come out of the quarterbacks helmet and the various teams would be forced to either shuttle plays in and out with personnel or signal them in like they did in the old days. Back then we had better quarterbacks (I believe) and the good ones were like offensive coordinators on the field.

Getting caught with a camera would be a one year suspension for any team that was caught doing it and the forfeit of the game it was used in.

That's how I feel about it. I know that won't happen and I even know that maybe it shouldn't happen but it's the way I like to think of NFL football. It's the way I like to imagine it to be and I know that there are many, many fans who feel the exact same way.

I think it's a reflection of the fans perception of football being a game/sport and it also being a business. I've been watching NFL football for all of my adult life. I started watching it when I was in elementary school. I was raised on it and from an early age I bought into the illusion. I was able to suspend my disbelief and think of it only as a game. Today there are too many things going on that get in the way of that illusion.

But make no mistake, I understand that what I want to see is probably not the best thing for business and without the business the game doesn't exist.

Hervoyel
09-14-2007, 04:09 PM
And while I'm on the subject I think leather helmets need to make a comeback!

Exithios
09-14-2007, 04:11 PM
And while I'm on the subject I think leather helmets need to make a comeback!

I yearn for the days that the goal posts were in the FRONT of the end-zone. So many TD's denied by a head first trod into the goal post.

disaacks3
09-14-2007, 04:43 PM
I find it far worse that a coach is purchasing hgh than a team trying to steal signals. There is no decent test for hgh as far as I know. I used to get my roids via a strength coach from a College football team back in the early 80's so I think the NFL is spot on coming down as hard as they did on the Coach for hgh. Ignorance is never a good excuse when you break the rules. A lot of hgh users become diabetics because it is common practice to inject insulin when taking hgh....this may be a chicken and egg thing with the Coach. Well, they both point to "Integrity of the Game" issues.

I feel the opposite way that you do. To me it's more of "Active" vs. "Passive" cheating. While it's within the realm of possibility that Wilson was actually buying the HGH for himself (who the hell cares if HE's on roids or not), there is no other reason to spy on signals, if not to benefit your team...possibly during THAT game.

I too think Belichick is a very good coach and Brady is an excellent QB, but think about this... Isn't that a circular argument if the Offense knows what the Defense is doing? Wouldn't that have the potential to MAKE you Good when you're really not?

Koolaid Time
09-14-2007, 05:31 PM
So.. are spies ALWAYS cheaters??? :spy:

Reminds me of something said back when Electronic Surveillance was in its infancy.. like 1910... “Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail”….


By the way, its ironic that this guy happens to be a BIG Patriots fan...

http://www.nndb.com/people/349/000023280/liddy-lookin-up.jpg

I'm surprised that the Commish didn't say anything about the extra radio equipment found in the Patriots gear. All Roger talked about was video cams...

Bugs were planted.. but where? Coaches Box, Sideline, Jets lockeroom??? I'm curious...

By the way, SIGINT gives you much more data than IMINT..

Double Barrel
09-14-2007, 06:10 PM
http://www.nndb.com/people/349/000023280/liddy-lookin-up.jpg

The man with a plan! G. Gordon don't mess around.

Second Honeymoon
09-14-2007, 07:07 PM
the problem is that with technology improving daily you have to nip the problem at the bud now. if a coach has good enough eyes and ears where he can pick up some things to key on, that is just good coaching but if you are using magnification, microphones, or other technology you need to be punished harshly. The technology is just too readily available to be abused.

goodell should have levied a heavier price to pay as far as draft picks but I guarantee you that the next team that is caught doing it will be punished severely. I think they should have lost both their extra picks. 1st and 3rd round and Bill DEFINITELY needed to be suspended for a game..that would have sent a better message. Goodell went light but don't expect it next time. I think any subsequent violation by Bill or any other coaching staff will be punished much more harshly.

BattleRedToro
09-14-2007, 08:36 PM
The Patriots should've had to forfeit the game to the Jets, and Belicheat should've been suspended for 4 more games, with no contact between him and his team allowed during that time.

Double Barrel
09-15-2007, 11:34 AM
I found this article interesting, because the issue is not about stealing signals. It is solely how the Patriots did it.

Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio believes stealing signals in football happens as routinely as it does in baseball.

It's just not supposed to include videotape.

"It's quite obvious that when you're signalling defensively, the other bench is like a guy on second base," Del Rio said Wednesday. "If the pitcher or catcher is giving away signals, then he can relay things. But that's part of the game. You're not talking about having a camera set up on the centre-field fence that you're looking and shooting the catcher's signals and then studying that before you go play that opponent.

"That's a different issue. Do we look at each other's sidelines and look for hints at what might be coming? Sure. I think all teams do that. That's been going on forever. That will continue to be part of our game."

Source (http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5g8t4gGvOgbknF6sp1Sp0FCOrPruA)